Guild Wars 2

Oglaf.1074:

Of course Zhaitan is undead: his body is made up of the dead corpses of lesser dragons!

How much more undead can you get?

The answer is “none”

Actually, that’s never said. Nor is it really true.

His body looks like it’s a bunch of merged dragons with rotten skin. Doesn’t mean it is.

And in the Making of Guild Wars 2 the description for the concept art of Zhaitan they based it on simply says “made of dragons” – no mention of “undead” or “dead” in it.

There’s a huge difference between being a coalesce of undead dragons, and looking like it.

Of course, this is all assuming any of them are your traditional living beings – or ever were. Considering they feed on magic, breath magic, are said to be more magical than physical, and for all we know kitten magic, it’s more likely they’re more akin to elementals than living beings (which would more easily explain how Kralkatorrik turns into a sandstorm, how such huge beasts fly so easily, and how Jormag’s blood freezes and Kralk’s blood crystallizes). And you can’t make undead out of that which was never living.

Which is why I prefer to call Zhaitan the “Elder Rot Dragon” – especially since even newly made risen look like they’ve been rotting for at least a year.

I would hardly say the norn are peaceful – out of all the races, they’re the biggest brawlers.

They’re just not big on warfare because they’re not big on large groups, which is required for warfare.

Asura may want to eradicate skritt and rule over other races, but that’s their superiority complex and not all of them do either – in fact, based on GW2 very few want to eradicate skritt. Most are more interested in using or studying them.

I would argue that the sylvari are the most peaceful of the playable races. Yes, they do battle against the Nightmare Court, and they do fight the Elder Dragons, but both of these are defensive battles. And the Nightmare Court themselves are overall more interested in converting (even if forcefully or through torture) than making fights, and I wouldn’t consider them to be the norm no more than I’d consider Renegades to be the norm for charr.

Do we really need another thread on this topic? Isn’t there already three or four of them already, with at least two on the front page? Anyways…

1. The cannons were magically designed by Zojja based on Snaff and the Inquest’s research on the Elder Dragons to be specifically anti-Zhaitan (as was that megalaser).
2. Nothing ever states Zhaitan himself is undead. He’s an Elder Dragon of Undeath. Saying he is undead is like saying Jormag is ice, or Kralkatorrik is crystal. But ice and crystal don’t bleed. They’re called the Elder Ice/Fire/Undeath/Crystal Dragons because they control such and that’s what their corruption creates (and in the case of Kralkatorrik, he can become a sandstorm of crystals).
3. The risen don’t just go and disappear with Zhaitan’s death – they just lose their maker and highest leader. Champions still hold self-will, and control over the weaker risen, and there are still plenty of risen about. It’s unclear if the champions can continue to make more risen, but either way they’re a dying breed – just not dead yet with Zhaitan’s defeat. But given the lack of risen in Southsun Cove, they’re probably close to such by the time the karka come about. So we’ll likely never see risen in new content ever again, except maybe some unknown stragglers.
4. Zhaitan fell onto the ground – he was very much clearly still on land. And a tower the size of himself landed on top of him. A good portion of him probably got squished.
5. We were actually supposed to see his corpse in Arah explorable. I’m not sure if we actually can, but no one afaik, has reported such.

Oglaf.1074:

I can’t believe the Pact didn’t even send someone down to go look and see if he was still squirming.

Who said they didn’t?

Oreoz.2573:

Perhaps Palawa has been made a champion and senses his master’s distress? Was a deal made?

I somehow doubt a champion would be facing his own master. See The Movement of the World “This undead armada has cut off all human contact with Cantha, and the dragon’s undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border, preventing all in Tyria from departing for other lands…for now. "

If anything, Zhaitan and Joko are outright rivals. I’m actually sad that we didn’t meet any Elonian undead and Mordant Crescent in Orr working with the Pact.

Besides, as mercury said, there’s still Kralkatorrik in the northern Crystal Desert. While the Dragonbrand ended at Glint’s sanctuary, he flew off somewhere without continuing the Dragonbrand, so his exact location for the past five years has been left unknown. And even ignoring this, we get from the Desert Gate Guards in Fields of Ruin this:

“This gate serves as a barrier against the Crystal Desert. Letting you through would be condemning you to death. Dark events have befallen the desert.”
What dark events?
“Truth be told, we don’t know, exactly. We’ve only heard whispers. We’ve been unable to contact Elona since its last refugees fled the desert to Divinity’s Reach.”

Note: The “last refugees” would be from 50 years ago, approximately.

Oreoz.2573:

-following the rule of zombies, no real damage is done to Zhaitan’s head. Being a dragon of undeath, one would suspect loss of limb and cannon fire poses only minor threats. Those threats being to his mobility rather than to his life. Lol

In Fort Trinity, there’s a Priory Scholar asking a Vigil Crusader how to kill risen. He states “Decapitation, fire, just about anything that can kill the living kills the dead.” (maybe not in that exact wording though). The standard rules of zombie killing doesn’t matter to Guild Wars undead – or at least the Risen (which aren’t your typical Guild Wars undead anyways!).

The lasers and cannons were also specially modified to be anti-Zhaitan.

Oreoz.2573:

-The fate of Palawa Joko is unknown to us. It’s entirely possible that he was made a champion and will thus come to the aid of his master.

Nope, Joko’s forces are fighting Zhaitan’s (plus Zhaitan never went to Orr):

The Movement of the World

This undead armada has cut off all human contact with Cantha, and the dragon’s undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border, preventing all in Tyria from departing for other lands…for now.

SpeedFiend.4521:

Kralkatorrik won’t be next because killing him off opens the southern border to Joko’s undead hordes, which are presently occupied fighting him.

This is actually a common misconception. The dragon that Joko’s forces are fighting is Zhaitan, not Kralkatorrik.

There is never mention of Joko’s undead fighting Kralkatorrik and his forces.

mercury ranique.2170:

We asume that Primordus stayed underground but we dont really know for sure. Those tunnels go all the way to Cantha, and maybe even further, so he could have come to the surface anywhere.

Not to mention that Primordus makes tunnels.

Though he can also spring up at any given moment as well and at any place, given he’s already made Mount Maelstrom, the dwarves keeping him at bay are probably mostly gone by now.

I would not doubt that while the Pact prepares to take on Jormag, Primordus goes and opens volcanos and other kinds of giant fissures across the land, sending destroyers everywhere – from the Maguuma to Orr to Kryta to Ascalon – thus making him the next target.

Primordus has been around the longest, and he’s had plenty of ancient asuran devices to chow down on for magical food, so he’s bound to have the largest and strongest army around. Hell, Kralkatorrik would have plenty of magic to eat in the Crystal Desert too.

mercury ranique.2170:

Somehow I see her as the only female dragon, and maybe the mother of them all.

I can’t see how you get to such an impression, personally.

mercury ranique.2170:

ED6. Well I just think the lore writers made an error here. but who knows

You mean that there’s not supposed to be a sixth Elder Dragon? I disagree. Crucible of Eternity creates heavy allusion to a plant-based Elder Dragon named Mordremoth.

I fail to see why seeing Zhaitan only once is such a negative aspect to the game’s story. Because to me it isn’t.

The lack of continuity – if you’re referring to what I think you are, where NPCs you met get re-introduced or never denote knowing you – seems to be oversights and bugs, many of which were fixed a couple weeks after release, but some still existing.

And Trahearne isn’t bad storytelling, it’s bad voice acting. Though that’s an imo case.

Toxyn.9608:

Five races (Mursaat, Forgotten, Dwarves, Seers, and Jotun) survived the last awakening. Now five new ones (Human, Charr, Asuran, Sylvari, and Norn) battle the current awakening.

Huh. Didn’t know the quaggan, largos, skritt, hylek, grawl, and kodan don’t count as races.

Toxyn.9608:

The six Elder Dragons are on some sort of reocurring sleep cycle.

[…]

What all this balance means – I don’t know. However for the first time an Elder Dragon has been killed instead of “sated”. What does this do to the balance, if this balance exists? Do the Gods and Dragons share a connection since there are six of each? If there is a connection, how does killing Zhaitan effect the God associated with him? Will it cause the associated God to reappear?

Trahearne hints in his instance after Zhaitan’s death that there are many more Elder Dragons across the world, just now awakening. So there may be more than six. As Buddhakeks said, the Jotun Arah path also implies this.

There are only six to Jotun knowledge.

Furthermore, we can’t say no Elder Dragon ever died before – we can only say that there’s no mention of such in recorded history, which currently is limited to parts of jotun and dwarven history. The Forgotten, mursaat, seer, krait, tengu, and kodan (all being or are hinted at being ancient races) might know of some Elder Dragons killed before. Glint certainly knows killing an Elder Dragon is possible, so she may know of one killed in the past – too bad she died and we can’t ask her.

And the Elder Dragons’ awakening did not cause the gods to disappear, so why would an Elder Dragon’s death cause a god to reappear?

There’s also one or two more gods than the Six Gods: Koda and Mellaggan.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Humans can and have killed a god too. Though he was also weakened like Zhaitan was and while the group lacked superior firepower, they had the blessing of the other gods (whatever that ment exactly).

I like to imagine that the blessing preventing insta-killings by Abaddon, but gets stripped if you dance in front of him. But that’s just my humorous explanation for tying in an easter egg into canon lore.

Also, in the fight against Abaddon there were the etheric chains forged by Balthazar – and only by activating them could Abaddon be harmed.

There’s also the fight against Dhuum, aided by the seven Reapers, though we don’t kill him.

Gaudrath.6725:

Yes, and I can then roleplay Superman. Your point is? Start ignoring the game lore, especially lore that is obviously in your face and, well, I think you will find many roleplayers will start ignoring you.

Go ahead. Try playing a havroun of Bear with some Norn roleplayers. Tell me how it goes.

I don’t know if you’re acting ignorant, or you just don’t understand my wording.

You can roleplay whatever you want. Nothing stops you. And yes, if you go too far fetched, other people who randomly join into your roleplay will roleplay that you’re crazy. However, as I said, you can roleplay in a niche of friends and pre-design the setting beforehand, thus no problems exist!

But apparently that concept is too hard for you to understand.

Gaudrath.6725:

What you just described is the very definition of inconsistency. You cannot have a world where physical travel equates time travel.

From dictionary.com:

in·con·sist·ent
[in-kuh?n-sis-tuh?nt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
lacking in harmony between the different parts or elements; self-contradictory: an inconsistent story.
2.
lacking agreement, as one thing with another or two or more things in relation to each other; at variance: a summary that is inconsistent with the previously stated facts.
3.
not consistent in principles, conduct, etc.: He’s so inconsistent we never know if he’ll be kind or cruel.
4.
acting at variance with professed principles.
5.
Logic. incompatible ( def 4b ) .

So what part of “earlier parts of the game is earlier parts in the timeline” is, effectively, contradictory?

None.

Gaudrath.6725:

You still haven’t refuted my argument that the developers did a poor job with the game story and lore that creates paradoxes as you play. And no, the “it is just done that way” is not an argument. I maintain they could have done a much better job. If you want to discuss that, you can either agree with me, or prove me wrong. Haven’t done either so far.

And you still haven’t shown how it’s inconsistent.

Perhaps you need a wider use of vocabulary. Because what you’re pointing out isn’t “inconsistency” nor is it “paradoxical” – but perhaps the way it’s meant to be viewed is too out-of-the-box for you to wrap your head around.

And for the record, when I said “this is how it’s done” I wasn’t using that as an argument – I was just stating that’s how the game was made. Where earlier parts of the game are done at an earlier point in time.

If you ask me, personally, I would argue a game where every zone is set at the same time yet has clearly a difference in level difficulty would be paradoxical. Why? Because it would mean that the point in time when you’re killing the Risen Priestess of Grenth in Cursed Shore is the exact same point in time that you’re struggling to fight the Shadow Behemoth because you’re 5 levels too low. That sounds a heck of a lot more paradoxical than being able to go to earlier zones and experience events that happened before other events you’ve already experienced.

What you need to accept is this simple fact:

The game is designed in a linear fashion, but you do not have to experience it in said linear fashion. This isn’t paradoxical, it is mechanics. What would be paradoxical would be if killing the Shadow Behemoth and killing Zhaitan happened at the same time (what you effectively want, from your arguments) and I experienced both.

Gaudrath.6725:

The problem with Zhaitan, and especially post-Zhaitan Orr, is that you have to ignore a LOT of things. It is hard to pretend that post-Zhaitan Orr is filled with remnants of the Risen when the majority of dynamic events, NPCs and even landscape (statue and temple corruption) make it quite clear that Zhaitan is still very much alive.

You do know that Zhaitan’s corruption is still around after his death, as well as a kitten ton of risen, and the risen still act like he’s alive, right?

Just want to make sure you’ve done the Arah explorable, where every risen acts no differently than before Arah story mode, yet Arah explorable very clearly takes place after Arah story.

Frankenfuhrer.8023:

why does there seem to be so much disappointment with Zhaitan? Also, any idea which Dragon we’ll be going up against next?

The disappointment with Zhaitan is how we kill him. We use environmental weapons that are cannons and shoot at a still target – all Zhaitan does in the final phase (note: this is after half of him gets cut off, and his right wing gets crippled thus unable to fly) is scream at you and spawn weak mobs to distract you. There’s no real challenge after the first phase of the fight with Zhaitan, which itself is just killing a bunch of mobs while Zhaitan from a distance spawns near-instant-kill AoE attacks which are pretty easy to miss happening, while defending an NPC.

As for which dragon is next – it’s still up in the air. Jormag has the most influence and most hints at being next, but unless the other Elder Dragons become active threats, Kralkatorrik is the most reasonable to go after (killing him opens a land passage into Elona) and the DSD is also reasonable to go after (killing him opens sea passage into Cantha and other lands), though few races know about the DSD.

If they’re fought in order of current influence on the world I’d put it at: Jormag→Kralkatorrik→Primordus→Sixth Elder Dragon (possibly named Mordremoth)→Deep sea dragon (name unknown).

If they’re fought in order of current reasons to go after them, I’d put it at:
Kralkatorrik→DSD/Jormag→Primordus/Sixth

With DSD and Jormag being interchangable and Primordus and “Mordremoth” being interchangable in the second set up.

This may all change at the whim of the developers though.

mercury ranique.2170:

And they ask you to replace Trahearne as the leader.

Keep dreaming, pup. That won’t happen. Otherwise you’ll have a million leaders of the Pact.

Changes are, Trahearne will continue to lead the Pact, but give command over fighting the other Elder Dragons to more racial leaders. I expect Sigfast (one of the two leaders of the Wolfborn) to be involved with taking the fight to Jormag, given how he already says he thinks they shouldn’t sit around biding their time (they being the norn), and Knut Whitebear is already training the Wolfborn to combat Jormag.

Gaudrath.6725:

The fact that they have the Tooth there to serve as a test for Norn heroes indicates that the idea of fighting Jormag is pretty deeply ingrained in their society, but that they want to be sure before they go off to fight him.

And I agree, however, I have seen nothing – and I’ve seen a lot (I somehow doubt you’ve seen all NPC dialogues, btw) – to indicate that there is a racial hatred towards Jormag.

Wanting to fight Jormag != hating Jormag. Not to norn. Maybe it would to humans, but norn are not humans, they are norn (yup, had to).

There are norn with a personal vendetta against Jormag, and against the Sons of Svanir, but as a race I see no racial hatred. They see him as a challenge and as a threat, a means to build their legends, but not all hate Jormag. And this doesn’t make the norn “dumb muscle mountains who can’t think straight for five minutes” either.

And Edge of Destiny shows that some norn who go off to fight Jormag or his champions alone are just looking to increase their legends, and not for personal vendettas. Sometimes drunk too.

Regarding shamans – it is an assumpion that Svanir shamans do such. There’s certainly no norn outside the Svanir who believe they commune with Jormag (or that there are even true Shamans at all). And all we see is that they are able to siphon Jormag’s power to turn others into Icebrood, while slowly becoming Icebrood themselves. You even contradict yourself by first saying “it is not an assumption that they must commune with their source of power. That’s what shamans do.” and then in the same paragraph saying “It is a pretty safe bet to assume they commune with him” – so which is it? Not an assumption, or a safe assumption? The latter, which still makes it an assumption and thus not fact.

Being forced into a prison isn’t the same as being forced into joining sides.

And I never said Jormag is nice. I would never argue such, given how he seems content to destroy everything that doesn’t want power or isn’t powerful. He seems to rule under the notion of power is life, and is simply willing to let others join him – I’d argue more out of making things easier for himself rather than being “nice.” If you say no, he’ll just kill you. It’s like his version of Cake or Death? Just “Power or Death?” instead.

Apparently the :P and “But to be a bit more serious” wasn’t enough to indicate the entire first half of my post was a joke.

I could say the same thing for you – you don’t like firing at Zhaitan with lasers or canon because it “doesn’t feel epic.”

That’s 100% subjective. And yes, so is “it looks silly” to slashing at a 1,000 foot tall creature with a 3 foot sword, but hey, we all have opinions.

And that’s what this situation is – opinion. I don’t ignore or “fail to counter” your examples – they’re just different scenarios! And I have, in fact, countered some – like your weakspot scenario, I said more than “it doesn’t make sense” (if I said that at all), but I also said that goes against the entire point Anet wanted to make with the Elder Dragons – that conventional weapons don’t do kitten against them – that’s why our beloved Drakkar was “retconed” (as in, changed during development) to not be Jormag – because it was too small and gave the Elder Dragons a sense of weakness ArenaNet didn’t want to give them (I’d source it, but Guru2 seemed to have deleted the post by Stephane Lo Presti commenting on Jeff Grubb’s behalf showing this).

Yes, the battle at the end of A New Hope does make sense to you – because they aren’t fighting an entity meant to hold no inherent weakspots (note: being able to be cut in half by something never used against them is not an inherent weakspot – it’s being overpowered), because it’s a ship and ships have generators and blowing them up destroys the ship – it’s an age old adage predating long before Star Wars. A person with a pipe could, theoretically, have destroyed the Death Star.

But Zhaitan doesn’t have a generator, and he won’t blow up when striking at this non-existent generator.

Gaudrath.6725:

Those are details. Not important. My point was that you could do a better job with the final fight after a measly ten minutes of casual writing. Of course you can find flaws in my version, it’s not like I’ve spent months refining it, but that’s not the point and yet you keep focusing on finding small issues with the alternative version instead of discussing the bigger picture.

If I’m arguing over small issues, so are you – as this is the first time you try deviating from such.

From the get go, by the way, I’ve been arguing on the larger view of how to confront Zhaitan to be best – disagreeing with you (yes, it is a bit subjective, but so is your stance) – and furthermore, from the get go I have been saying, effectively but not in exactly the same words “Anet went the right direction, but executed extremely poorly” – and to clarify, by “right direction” I mean using powerful weapons.

That was only a small group (of the overall large four Legions). The majority of charr did stay to assault Ascalon.

Zhaitan fell onto the ground – crashed pretty hard, with a tower landing on top of him too. I’m sure the Pact went straight down to check, though I suppose you never know.

Bard.7215:

You can’t really vaporize something that’s immune to chemical change, He’s not made of actual matter, remember. I’d theorize that even if you ground Cthulhu up into the smallest particles (Assuming he even is composed of small individual particles like matter) that they would still reform into his base form. Lovecraft made it pretty clear that his eldrich horrors were beyond such notions of death or obliteration.

There’s only three types of things in existence when you get down to the nitty gritty bits.

Matter, anti-matter, and imagination.

If it’s matter, you can do kitten to it, even if it takes a full blown star, or exploding a star, to do it. If it’s anti-matter, the second it touches you, or anything that’s matter, it “blows up” (as does what it touches). If it’s imagination, it can’t do kitten to you.

Welp, guess Cthulhu’s imagination. :P

But to be a bit more serious: that’s actually what I dislike about the Cthulhu mythos – I like horror and I hate when the “victim” in a horror story is able to fight back (that’s not true horror – true horror is what invokes fear in the audience/victim, and the second you get a chance of survival, that fear is pretty much gone), but I dilike the Cthulhu mythos because of how silly the old gods sound to me – not the whole “ancient and powerful beings beyond our comprehension” but rather how they’re basically godmoding everything.

Yeah, I probably contradicted myself. I like horror that brings the feeling of helplessness, but I hate a kind of horror that invokes such by having unkillable hostile beings. Heh.

Gaudrath.6725:

Konig, you are really grasping at straws here. I offered you a number of different scenarios which answer your one and only “it is too big” argument and of course you just sidestep that and continue about how Zhaitan is too big.

I wonder if people would remember the story of David and Goliath if David used a field howitzer to blast an arm off Goliath, then gunned him down with a M-60 machine gun.

You honestly think that ANet did a stellar job on the final Zhaitan fight and that it couldn’t be done any better? Please.

I’m sorry, but all your examples were basically the same to me. So I don’t feel I side-stepped any, I just addressed the same point reiterated in different words once.

And no, I never once said Anet did a stellar job with the Zhaitan fight. I in fact said the opposite. It seems pretty clear to me now that you’re not reading my posts. Hopefully this one is small enough that you’ll read it all.

endeavor.7530:

I mean, it’s said humans spread over all of Tyria, right?

Tyria the continent, not Tyria the world.

The only race said to have been spread over the world are the tengu – and that’s past tense.

Deified.7520:

The Ebon Vanguard and Fallen Angels will be used heavily in the Elona Expansion. Ebonhawke will be the main city for going into Elona.

Reasons:
1. It is incomplete.
2. It has everything a normal capital city would have (TP, Bank, Trainers, Karma Venders, etc)
3. It has two entry ways into Elona (One is the main gate, the other is the tunnel that whisper agents travel through

Uh. Ebonhawke isn’t incomplete. You might be referring to the area that’s underconstruction because of siege weaponry damage? That’s renovation, not incompleteness.

And Skrittsburg and Zinctl Holy Grounds (spelling may be wrong) in Brisban Wildlands and Sparkfly Fen respectively have the same amount of stuff as Ebonhawke. And all three hold events – cities are without events, and much bigger. Ebonhawke won’t be a new city.

And that tunnel doesn’t lead to Elona – it just goes between the Ebonhawke fields and the base.

The charr knew em for at least 200 years prior to Jormag’s rise (which was 1165 AE), and at most just more than 200 years prior to the Searing (which was 1070) depending on the interpretation of The Movement of the World (it’s not very clear – it simply mentions 200 years of “peace” on the borders, and charr being allowed through Gunar’s Hold (gone with Jormag’s rise) and mention they were let through during the Charr Invasion that began with the Searing).

Dwarves knew them some unknown amount of time before Eye of the North. Humans on large knew of them at 1078 AE (Eye of the North) – though the Ebon Vanguard would have first met them around 1072 most likely, and as said above there’s likely some explorers who met them. Anyone else: unknown.

Son of Elias.5420:

So, the Norn were likely ‘discovered’ about 1400 years ago by the charr.

I fail to see how you get such a huge number. Given the fact that the reason why the charr didn’t wipe out the norn was due to the war with humans, they had to meet sometime after 100 BE no matter what. The borders were said to be stable for nearly 200 years – this had to come after the conflicts, of course, and these borders couldn’t be stable after Jormag’s rise (since there would be no such borders there), and there’s no mention of any battles after said stability – and with the mention that the norn let charr through during the year of the Searing shows that the stability had to include 1070 AE – there’s only 95 years after the Searing before Jormag’s rise (however, it should be noted that Jormag’s rise and Zhaitan’s rise were switched between the Movement of the World and the game’s release, so one can thus argue about 150 years rather than 95) thus meaning that the “nearly 200 years” cannot be later than 995 AE (or 1020 AE) but no earlier than 870 AE. If you ask me, it’s around the last date – because the Flame Legion discovered the titans in roughly 870 AE, which would mean at that point in time in the war against humans is the best time the charr had to move into the Far Shiverpeaks, but most of their focus was still on humans.

Being the one who most likely wrote that bit – at two different points in time as the 50 years ago bit was from BWE, while the desert gate bit was post-release – I apologize!

The Desert Gate’s sealing has no date associated with it. They’re two separate (to our knowledge) bits of lore.

Thing is, we don’t know if Jennah is the one who had it first sealed – it’s just that currently it is sealed by her orders (so did she initialize the orders or is she just keeping the orders going?).

@OP: How I see such situations coming about is that there will be an iconic of the race added (of what seem to be the three most popular and, imo, most likely races, tengu and kodan are unknown for who can act as such, but for largos I’d bet Sayeh), and that after Zhaitan’s death they work a lot with Destiny’s Edge in taking out Jormag and other dragons/threats (or for Sayeh, “worthy prey” while also seeing the continued value of the Pact and Destiny’s Edge should they be helpful for the DSD which pushed the quaggan, krait, and largos out of the depths).

Issue is, I would expect a reason for any new members or close associates for Destiny’s Edge – a case for kodan is obvious with Jormag, but tengu are not so and I expect it to be a while until the DSD becomes an open threat.

Furthermore, if there are more races to be added, be it as playable or as new Destiny’s Edge members, I wouldn’t doubt that there would only be three: so that there’d be a 1 race to 1 profession ratio in Destiny’s Edge. In which the future three races to DE would include mesmer, engineer, and necromancer. Which would kick out any known largos.

Of course, this is all 100% speculation.

@Mystic Starfish: I think Elias is referring to the Power Rangers – in the first version, the Green (later White) ranger doesn’t always work with the other five. But I may be waaaay off base here.

@Elias: The kodan view of norn in general is that they’re lacking balance, not that they’re inferior offshoots of themselves. In fact, I’ve only seen such brought up in the blog post – never in-game. Though at Song of Final Exile, there are kodan who look down on norn, but this isn’t due to them being “inferior offshoots” but just because they’re such noisy neighbors (not literally – but noisiness does seem to be part of it).

Gaudrath.6725:

Eh, I think it is simpler than that. Norn positively hate Jormag. They have his tooth hung in the great lodge and the whole community is always abuzz who will be the next to try and crack it, a test to see when they will be ready to march north to kill the elder dragon.

Er… that’s not hatred the norn have in your example.

The tooth is a trophy from a legendary hunt, and Jormag is the ultimate prey (because he’s also the “ultimate predator”) – he fell hero after hero in the past, so whoever kills him will be beyond legendary. And norn are all about making their legends.

The norn as a group don’t hate Jormag – though there are plenty of individuals who do (and hate Sons of Svanir too) for personal reasons. They do, however, seem to want to return up north as a whole and know that Jormag prevents such.

But again, there’s not much racial hatred towards Jormag. Just personal.

Regarding shamans – you admit you make assumptions, then argue why by making more assumptions (that Jormag would be able to tell because he’s powerful and because the Spirits of the Wild can tell).

Regarding icebrood taking kodan – interesting to note, if so (I only recall kodan being imprisoned in ice, but not that they’re not wanting to be corrupted – after all, who’s to say what mental battles are going on when they’re encased in ice? It’d be an assumption to say there are no such things in such a situation, given how icebrood and Jormag are all about mindkittening (then again, it’s also an assumption to believe there is a mental battle)). It seems that kodan are the one and only race that are forcibly corrupted then. Not only by icebrood, but by Svanir as well – unless you know of some Svanir case I do not (the closest case I can think of for a non-kodan being forcibly corrupted is a norn who goes to a shaman for power but becomes hesitent when the shaman offers to give him Jormag’s power).

And it should be noted that Jormag’s mental “seducing” – based on Edge of Destiny – is less “do you want power? If yes, become my icebrood!” but more of a jedi mind trick. It’s still convincing to join before corrupting, but those with weak wills seem to fall even if they would say no if asked. This being based on how Zojja reacts to the Dragonspawn (with her “it’s just like me” admirably said statemen or whatever it was).

Son of Elias.5420:

Well, no, the game pretty much agrees with Gaudrath. More than one Norn NPC says that Jormag is not a Spirit, that the Sons of Svanir are fools, etc etc. And they obviously consider him a challenge to be conquered, mostly because Norn consider everything as a challenge to be conquered.

Only the Sons of Svanir actually refer to Jormag as a Spirit.

I may be wrong, but I thought that Oglaf was referring to the “destroyer and icy death” part not the “not a Spirit of the Wild” part.

Gaudrath.6725:

Who said anything about me? You can’t roleplay that Zhaitan is dead in Orr when the Pact is yelling about cleansing temples of Zhaitan’s corruption in your ear or assaulting the gates of Arrah.

You seem to be unable to grasp the concept of “ignoring the NPCs” – the game doesn’t tell you what you can and cannot roleplay, despite your claim. Why? Because people can ignore the game.

If a group of roleplayers want to roleplay heroes in Tyria who have all personally seen and spoken to the Six Gods and lived for 10,000 years having seen the world when the Giganticus Lupicus walked Tyra, then they can. If they want to roleplay where there are not six but 10,000,000 Elder Dragons, they can.

What matters is not what the storyline says – the storyline is merely guidelines for real roleplayers and fan-fiction makers. What matters is the background lore and, more importantly to roleplayers, what players say. I’ve seen groups of roleplayers who formed into subgroups roleplaying that they’re conquering Tyria, replacing Jennah, Smodur, and so forth with themselves. Are you going to say they can’t do that? Too bad, they did.

And a non-godmodding group of roleplayers almost always agree upon pre-set conditions.

Gaudrath.6725:

You cannot have an inconsistent open world.

And GW2 isn’t an inconsistent open world. Just because you believe it is because Malchor’s Leap is based at an earlier point in time than Southsun Cove doesn’t mean it actually is.

Gaudrath.6725:

If each zone existed in a separate “reality” or point of time, then yes, they would be instanced, but that would mean linear progression and older characters would not be able to return to low level areas.

Uhm….

Each zone does exist at a separate point of time. And they’re not instanced, nor are players unable to go back.

So you’re wrong there. Separate points in time does not require instancing or preventing returning to earlier content.

I hope we can seriously drop this discussion though. Because you just spout the same kitten kitten every time and it’s obvious that you’re the ONE AND ONLY PERSON who believes it, but there’s no convincing you otherwise.

Yes, Anet could have done it differently, though not while keeping their goals of persistent open world and able to go back without splintering the playerbase, but either way this is how it’s done. Deal with it – it isn’t inconsistent, it’s just not how you would make such a game. That’s it.

Gaudrath.6725:

Ok let’s then discuss this: let us say you have killed Zhaitan and then go back to the beginner area and meet me. I haven’t killed Zhaitan but am in fact gearing up to do so. Can you roleplay that you killed him in front of me?

This is where the whole “roleplayers discuss settings before hand” come in – and when you roleplay freelance, then it obviously does create conflict.

But this is not an issue of the game. It never is nor was. It is, and always has been, a matter of players. Yet you still seem to blame the game’s design, and never the playerbase for this situation – and this issue is not unique to GW2 nor new in of itself.

If Guild Wars was a horror game, then not being able to kill Zhaitan might work. But as a science fantasy game as it is, that just leaves disappointment in a lot of players. You’re clearly not the kind who would be disappointed – tbh, neither would I be, but you can’t please everyone and it’s clear that ArenaNet wanted an actual victory in the end.

Then again, while we’re told Zhaitan is dead, who’s to say that he isn’t just inactive while his body reforms and he just simply won’t be seen in this lifetime again because of such?

As for whether Cthulhu can actually die… well, even if cut off pieces will just reform it, if you destroy those pieces then would it not thus be unable to reform? E.g., vaporization? Besides this, if you ask me, a seemingly all-powerful being who’s limited by the alignment of stars sounds pretty kitten pathetic to me, devourment of souls aside.

How do you know Jormag is aware of everything the Sons of Svanir do? How do you know that he’s actually allowing them to tap into his energy every single time and can cut it off whenever he wants? You don’t. You’re making assumptions, presumptions even.

Or maybe he just doesn’t care what they do with his power, so long as he gets more minions, but he himself – and by extension those who don’t have free will to do other things – shows only the desire to corrupt after converting with promises of power.

And there actually are shamans who act against the standard will and guidance of their totem spirit – see Vilnia Shadowsong, a Raven shaman who slaughters children. I somehow doubt Raven goes about preaching “kill your neighbors kids for power.”

Pohsib.7605:

I think it’s interesting to note that there are currently 5 playable races and 5 known dragons.
http://i.imgur.com/vKP7D.jpg strongly suggests that in a previous awakening of the dragons, 6 races were necessary to combat the 6 dragons. The Gods seem to want to stop the dragons, but can’t do it directly (the Dragon’s as consumptive foils to the Gods? The more the Gods use their powers, the stronger the Dragon’s hunger is to devour and reclaim that spent energy?).

3 months old, but I didn’t see this 3 months ago so…

It’s 5 races versus six dragons in the previous awakening – as it seems to be now, even. Few people know about the fifth and sixth Elder Dragon though (Order of Whispers seems to only know of five, while history denotes six, thus the Priory and Whispers know there were six, and the Inquest seem to believe six are still active).

@TheDood.8521 and BuddhaKeks.4857: There’s a few things to note which has brought my interest in that line:

1) Risen love psychological warfare, so they make lines that can’t be true or aren’t true a lot, just to weaken their enemies’ morale.
2) All priestesses during the meta events (and High Priestesses in Arah seer path) seem to hold different views for each god. Lyssa’s said to be dead, Grenth is denounced, and Dwayna is said to still be empowering her temple priestess – whether these are truths or not, it’s interesting to note how each god is treated differently.
3) The Priestess of Lyssa at the temple and the High Priestess of Lyssa in Arah say roughly the same thing.

Personally, I’m wanting to see if each temple priest and high priest’s lines about their respective gods match up. If they do, there may be some degree of truth in the priestesses of Lyssa’s words – that Lyssa may truly be dead. But I find it unlikely given the risen’s knack for lying.

You know, I really don’t get why folks believe that each Elder Dragon will get their own expansion – or each expansion getting their own playable race.

Also: the deep sea dragon DID wake up – 50 years (approximately) before GW2. It’s what drove the quaggan, krait, largos, and karka from the deep seas. The dragon that might not have woken up is the sixth unknown one (but then again, Primordus was pushed back 50 years, so it might have awakened at the same time as Primordus did). And Primordus awoke underground.

I never denied such. I’m merely stating that, in-game, it is the Risen Priestess/High Priestess of Dwayna. A human.

Originally it might have been intended to be a risen largos, but what it is now is a risen human.

@Gaudrath: Having a few tails cut off by a large laser designed and modified to be anti-Elder Undead Dragon is a hell of a lot less disappointing than a having a weakspot that a standard weapon can kill.

The Elder Dragons are meant to be nigh unstoppable beings, creatures millenia old that powerful races that nearly brought the current races at their high points to their knees couldn’t defeat. Just to be killed by a single arrow? Something those powerful races had plenty of? How kittening ridiculous does that sound to you? But instead being felled by something they didn’t have, that makes a hell of a lot more sense.

And slashing at a fleshy wall isn’t epic no matter how you spin it.

But I guess at this point it’s just a matter of taste – no matter what you do, you will never be able to please everyone.

And your sarcasm at the end is getting tiresome. Hell, you as a whole are getting tiresome.

If Zhaitan was the size of the Shatterer, your idea would work. Fighting with your everyday weapons and spells would work. But Zhaitan’s pretty much at least 3 times the Shatterer’s size. It’d be like attacking a skyscraper with a sword.

Makes me think of this – just change stone to scales. Its the same concept.

I agree that there’s too many comedic elements. But I disagree with a poor story. In regards to Zhaitan, I’d have to go with Buddhakeks that you seem to have been expecting something more of a classic fantasy villain.

There were bad parts – plenty of them in fact. But these were not due to story fallpoints, but rather due to game design.

In GW1, there are NPCs who have their professions changed. Though only one who has his profession change in story is Kieran – who goes from being a ranger to being a paragon.

That model is, as have been said, reused for the Risen Priestess of Dwayna (and Risen High Priestess of Dwayna).

sigh Let’s not start the whole issue of the “contradictory” (ignoring the misuse of the word) again.

Yes, I have met roleplayers, and a group of roleplayers, and it does get tricky when you create your own story – or, god forbid, everyone claims to be the one individual hero who saved the world in the same situation. (Side note: when I said “just the overall lore” I meant that you can’t openly play a god who created the world without issues with other roleplayers).

Typically, roleplayers I know do ignore personal story for their characters’ stories – I do too, though I don’t roleplay I do enjoy giving my characters backgrounds and personalities, which don’t work with the personal story. As such, it is my stance – and the stance of the roleplayers I know – to ignore what the NPCs say at present unless it’s meant as real-time (e.g., you’re roleplaying in the time the actions and sayings are happening), but always acknowledge that it’s said (e.g., it’s either present or past) – it’s all up to the roleplayers themselves to set up the rules around the roleplaying. That’s how I was introduced into the world of roleplaying, even in these kinds of games.

But yes, it is canon that Zhaitan dies before the karka come about. Whether or not your character was there for Zhaitan’s death is, as I said, completely up to the roleplayer – those who limit themselves to what they’ve played as being their characters’ experience have a very poor imagination.

The “path” that you mention is when they become an Icebrood. Svanir “shamans” are not yet Icebrood (well, they’re more half-and-half) – that’s the whole point of what I’m saying, they still have free will and thus aren’t forced to do his will.

And no, I’m not saying the Sons of Svanir – I’m saying that they don’t follow his preference of corruption (note: all Elder Dragons seem to hold a preference for how they corrupt, but that doesn’t mean that they cannot corrupt otherwise). It’s no different than the amulets and other artifacts embued with Zhaitan’s corruption that is capable of corrupting living beings like Kellach, despite the fact that Zhaitan and his risen themselves never EVER corrupt living beings.

There’s a difference between “how the dragon corrupts” and “how non-minions use their magic to corrupt others” – Svanir and Jormag are not the only case here. The Inquest on a whole at the Crucible of Eternity are this very situation. The only difference is that the Svanir revere Jormag and treat their corrupting others as a gift, rather than a tool.

And it’s outright shown – both through the Sons of Svanir, Frozen Portal skill challenges (one in Lornar’s and one in Frostgorge), as well as a Pact officer in Frostgorge that Jormag goes after those who want power – not necessarily those who are powerful or are weak.

And as for the risen spiders and drake eggs – that’s not proving anything. Corrupted while pregnant, corrupted while in the egg. Oddity proven.

Durzlla.6295:

jblade.6470:

Hmm didn’t even think of that. Just figured the big event right before we leave was the Foefire but didn’t take the time to realize other clues. I just thought the city looked different because none of the old areas besides the HoM seem to look anything like they did in GW1 due to different designers or something (which saddened me since I wish there were more places that hadn’t changed much at all). Thanks for clearing that up.

The foefire was NOT in the fractal, that was actual the charr laying Siege on a part of Ascalon pre-searing, the big event that occured as we ended it was the searing (from what i can tell and seen) it certainly wasn’t the foefire though.

@jblade: Actualy, a lot of the Ascalonian ruins look the same. Ascalon City, the old entrance to the Catacombs, Grendich Courthouse (well, the surface) and Piken Square for starters.

@Durzlla: Nothing indicates that was the Searing either, as no major battles were known for that day – in fact, the opposite is said about that day. In pre-Searing GW1, there’s a lot of lines about the lack of major charr battles, and how the battlefront is mostly quiet (despite the endless charr seen in the town, interestingly enough).

In fact, the area looks quite post-Searing given the land, though that may be due to the siege itself. It may be during the Foefire, but it isn’t Ascalon City and no other major battle is known on that day.

It could easily be a battle from centuries ago just as easily as a battle happening between the Searing and Foefire. There’s no real indication for when the timeframe is.

No, given that this map should be “modern” – however it is still lacking some details (Frostgorge Sound is missing, as is the Isles of Janthir and Janthir Bay, and there’s more water marked at where Gendarran Fields is than should be, Shing Jea Isle is connected to Cantha now, Battle Isles should be sunken, etc.). My guess is that would be the flooded Desolation, at the center of the River Elon (it originates from north of Vabbi and flowed south, but now it makes a bad V shape more or less) after Joko kitten it.

Whoever said I wasn’t “chill”? I saw it as an intended joke too, doesn’t mean I cannot respond to it though.

Side note: I am now really wanting to see Icebrood Dryders, since the Shiverpeak ones seem to originate from the Far Shiverpeaks (those seen in the Northern Shiverpeaks were only in some of the northernmost reaches of said Northern Shiverpeaks, and would at best barely touch Frostgorge Sound’s western edge).

Then again, I feel as though the different kinds of Branded, Destroyers, and Icebrood are severely lacking (no Icebrood/Branded wurms? Or Icebrood/Branded grawl? Icebrood bats as seen in concept art? No branded harpies? And the branded elementals using normal elemental models is very saddening too. Not to mention how there’s only 3 destroyer models (excluding the one-use-only model for Destroyer of Worlds, couldn’t use that one instead of the Megadestroyer (aka big destroyer troll)?).

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Is it just me, or does this seem to match up? The landmass central towards the bottom is Cantha, and that tiny group of islands to the North-West of Cantha is the Battle Isles. Just about central to the entire map is Istan, which means Tyria-Elona is the South-Westernmost chunk of the largest continent.

Maybe I’m just seeing what I want to see.

No, you’re correct.

Though there are multiple minor discrepencies, but those are where the continents are on that map.

As to the OP: I haven’t seen the legendary with the globe so I don’t know.

jblade.6470:

The Foefire (know it’s also a fractal but we never get to actually see it happen)

This is actually a misconception. That city looks nothing like Ascalon City, and there were Ash Legion tents used by Flame Legion so it couldn’t have been during the Foefire since the rebellion was already underway.

King Frozenwind isn’t a normal elemental. Elementals are not sapient. King Frozenwind very much is.

However, the fact there are elementals in the Mists does not show a relation between the two. As said, Elementals are created by concentrated magic seeping into the land, and as far as I’m aware, magic is very abundant in the Mists.

And… Frosties? You mean the snowmen? They’re not from the Mists. Snowmen are made by Tyrians. You can make some in GW1 even.

Nothing says that gargoyles are created by magic – or even hints at such either.

As to “you cna’t just go to any place in the mists from any point in Tyria.” – well, your examples are rather subjective. Firstly, from the Temple of the Ages (and Reaper’s Gate for that matter), you can only go to the Underworld and Fissure of Woe because the avatars of the gods took you. Godslost Swamp became such with portals to the Underworld due to a necromancer trying to access the Underworld specifically.

The Rift from Tombs or the Battle Isles actually goes through the Underworld first, if map names are any indication, however both portals were made by Lord Odran and if you want to get technical:

“Those who have the know-how to travel across the universe through the Mists must pass through the Rift on their way to all other places.”

You’re somewhat right that you can’t access anywhere in the Mists from just anywhere in Tyria. You have to go through the Rift first, no matter where you are. And from there you can access anywhere in the Mists.

Dhuum’s awakening has nothing to do with the thin veil between Tyria and the Mists – both the thin veil and Dhuum’s awakening are aftermath to the number of adventurers, and the former was finalized for constant portals thanks to some unknown necormancer.

There are actually several places in Tyria with a thin barrier to the Mists – only 2 holding a connection to the Six Gods (Godslost Swamp and Reaper’s Gate). In the human storyline, you can meet with Priestess Rhie to perform a ritual to make a portal to the Underworld, where you go to a weak spot in Gendarran Fields – the weak spot made by the large number of deaths. There’s also a weakspot in northern Dredgehaunt Cliffs, where jotun ruins are.

Weakening of the barrier between the Mists and Tyria is not reliant upon the Six Gods, nor does it seem to strengthen with their absence.

I can only echo what Neilos and BuddhaKeks said – also: please don’t restart the multi-page long discussion seen here – it was annoying the first time.

To summarize it all: Events, regardless of when or the order you play them, have a set place in the GW timeline – one way to view it is that you’re just witnessing events that took place at a different timeframe than the “present” (like, for example, how in GW1 there was the Bonus Mission Pack which let you witness events that took place prior to the game).

So yes, Zhaitan dies before the Ancient Karka dies. However, when you go fight him is still when he’s killed officially. Even if you play that dungeon 100 times, he only dies once.

If you want to roleplay that he died and you didn’t kill him, be our guest. If you want to roleplay that you were there during the battle, be our guest. Both work, since it’s roleplaying and the boundaries are pretty wide in making your characters’ story (since it doesn’t have to follow the game’s personal story per say, just the overall lore).

Gaudrath.6725:

Jormag does corrupt forcibly. Sons of Svanir shamans can perform rituals which can forcibly turn someone into Icebrood, and there are icy prisons where prisoners are also turned into Icebrood against their will, as we can see in Frostgorge Sound.

Sons of Svanir corrupt forcibly for Jormag.

Jormag, his champions, and full-blown non-SoS Icebrood have shown no signs of this (yet).

The difference here is that the Sons of Svanir, having their own intelligence which is capable of going against Jormag’s will, is simply transferring his power to others. This doesn’t mean Jormag wants them to corrupt forcibly. Though it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t either.

Zaxares.5419:

There is a conversation between two Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak (I think?) about what to do with female Norn, and one of them was arguing that they’d still need to keep women around in order to make new Sons of Svanir.

I recall a similar dialogue between Sons of Svanir in the Protect the Spirits norn personal storyline. I remember it cuz it was funny – one norn saying he’s glad they don’t let women into their group, because they’re annoying. Another agrees, but then says he does like their curves, and then says “besides, how are we going to make more of us without women?” to which the first says “I hate the way you think.” or some such.

PopeUrban.2578:

False. There are several events in Orr that specifically have the player deal with procreating risen animals. The NPC chatter/text in these state this is specifically for the reason that allowing them to procreate results in more risen.

In fact, there’s an Asura specifically researching exactly how this is possible, as the whole concept is rather troubling.

Supported by ingame events, we know that at the very least risen Spiders and Drakes can and do procreate, and are only left to infer that other risen can as well.

There’s only one event I can think of which deals with risen making babies – one in Malchor’s Leap about drake eggs hatching.

However, it’s never mentioned that the drake eggs were laid.

Flameseeker Prophecies holds a transcript of Meerak the Shouter’s dialogue in GW1 (one of the prophecies, effectively, mixed in with some crazies), along with murals on the signs possibly depicting various parts of said Prophecies.

The rest… I know nothing about any (possible) background lore. Except Rodgort, which was a name in various Elementalist fire skills in GW1.

Ponder.3647:

She has the wings though :/ Ah well.

Wings can be part of an outfit or costume.

Gaudrath.6725:

Konig, actually I do have a little bit of experience in game design, so all of the stuff I said was meant to work with the game engine and is completely doable, no worries.

With other game engines, definitely, with GW2’s?…

“Enter Trahearne! Leaping over the shaterred walls he bears down on the monster”

NPCs can’t seem to jump in GW2, not in the same way PCs can – and same goes for falling off cliffs (even 1-foot high ones).

I dunno why this is, but it is.

Gaudrath.6725:

The resaon of letting players defeat Zhaitan with their ordinary weapons is the same reason why defeating Zhaitan with lasers and huge cannons is a let-down: it is not epic. It is impersonal, it is machines against a suddenly atavistic monster.

If you ask me, killing Zhaitan with a 3 foot long blade is not only not epic, but also not making any sense. As would the concept of Elder Dragons having a weak spot. Personally, my main issue with killing Zhaitan with mega-lasers and the like was that half of the work was done by NPCs. You didn’t fight Zhaitan half the time – you fought his minions while Zojja and otherwise-never-named NPCs did the actual damage to Zhaitan, until he was crippled and hanging onto a tower for his dear life (which also felt a bit meh – I would have preferred chasing him in the airship as he crawls through Arah in a circular pattern, unable to fly, while champions besieged the ship).

To me, wacking a creature the size of, or bigger than, Godzilla with standard-sized weaponry is not epic nor does it provide as “sense of heroism.” It’s comical because of how silly it is. It’s like being killed by a bunch of splinters (germ warfare excluded). That’s not heroic or worthy of song. It makes the allies of the fell laugh their kitten off, and the victorious go “we were threatened by that?”

If he was a third of the size he is, I could probably agree. But as he is, he’s twice the size of the airship you’re on (roughly) which itself is about three times the size of other airships – effectively making Zhaitan roughly six times a standard airship’s size. And you know how much bigger to your character a standard airship is?

Forget slashing at toenails, you’re slashing at cuticles. Hell – fighting the dragon champions is already slashing at ankles unless you’re ranged and can aim at the head, and I find those fights boring as hell because of such.

There’s dozens of ways to have made the fight epic without resulting in slashing at something over a hundred times your size with a sword. Be it that they just had you do more than spam 2 in the final phase, had you be the one to cripple Zhaitan, had you fire at Zhaitan while he’s in flight, had champions defending him, had you having to shoot Zhaitan as he moved about on the ground when crippled, or even as everyone was expecting when they heard Zhaitan was designed to look like many dragons merged together: that he’d split apart into his dragon champions and you’d have to kill each one individually.

Gaudrath.6725:

As for size… a Norn ripped out a tooth from Jormag’s jaw the size of a small tower. If you want epic, don’t expect much realism. Realism can be all kinds of stuff, but epic isn’t one of them.

A norn empowered by multiple Spirits of the Wild.

Maybe if we had the blessing of the gods like when we fight Abaddon in Nightfall, it’d make a bit more sense to fight Zhaitan with what would be mere splinters to him.

Gaudrath.6725:

Also, once you start killing off ancient giant dragons with lasers and bombs, instead of personal, heroic struggle… what’s next? Carpet-bombing Jormag? Where is the mystery? The dread? The hope? We can lazer one elder dragon to pieces, we can lazer them all. No real challenge, just technical and logistical problems to be solved. No more mystical war against ancient evils, but quite an ordinary one against a hopelessly outdated enemy.

We can laser Zhaitan and use those golden cannon fires on him because they’re made to be anti-undead and anti-Elder Dragon, not just anti-Elder Dragon.

I bet Kralkatorrik and Jormag can reflect those lasers with their crystals and ice – using them like mirrors. And you sure as hell can’t get airships underground or underwater (hell, would the lasers and cannons even work underwater?). Given those weaponry were made for Zhaitan, you’d have to make new stuff for the other Elder Dragons – and who’s to say that new stuff will work as well as the old stuff on Zhaitan did?

Zaxares.5419:

Hmm, I wouldn’t say that Charged Lodestones and Crystal Lodestones are related. One is Air/Lightning and the other is Earth/Crystal. If anything, I’d say that Onyx and Crystal are the linked pair.

Piles of Essence are the odd one out in that they really don’t belong to a traditional “element”.

While I agree with the Piles of Essence being the odd-one out, I would argue Charged and Crystal are linked. I mean, Charged Lodestones are meant to be lightning right? How can you get a lodestone out of lightning? You need something physical to conduct it – and with crystals, the icons look rather electrified if you ask me.

Stydracos.2460:

4) The guildwars 2 halloween event 2012 stated that it’s been over 250 years since the spirit of Thorn was last sighted. This puts the disappearance of the Gargoyles from Ascalon ‘around’ 110 years after Thorns last sighting.

Anet loves to summarize and it couldn’t have been over 250 years ago, given that he was present after the War in Kryta which took place in 1079 AE – GW2 happens in 1325 AE (that being the year he returned is 1325 AE) – that’s less than 250 year difference.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

But what are Gargoyles then? My guess is, they are related to elementals and djinns and as such come from somewhere in the Mists, meaning Ascalon was never their natural habitat to begin with.

I’m sorry, but where’s the correlation between elementals and djinn and the Mists?

Elementals are magically animated, well, elements. Djinn are spirits embued with elements that are trapped on the world (sometimes bound by powerful wizards) due to their greed.

Neither hold ties to the Mists.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

The reason why they are gone is the silence of the human gods. With the gods being more active, the veil between Tyria and the Mists was rather thin, allowing Gargoyles to easily pass it. With the gods being more distant, the veil grew thicker again.

This also makes no sense to me, given the fact that the Six Gods went silent in 1075 AE (literally 250 years prior to GW2) with the end of Nightfall. This means there was exactly 110 years between the silence of the gods and the gargoyles disappearance. Furthermore, the veil between the Mists and Tyria is still fairly thin – this is the reason why we have the whole situation with shades and aatxes in Godslost Swamp and at Reaper’s Gate. Furthermore, the Six Gods are not the only connection between Tyria and the Mists – you have the Spirits of the Wild, with havrouns opening portals through their respective spirits’ power, and then Koda and the Voices who are constantly intuned with the Mists – and these havrouns and Voices hold connections to the Mists other than the Underworld.

@endeavor: While yes, if you go south and continue that direction, you’ll eventually reach north of your original placement, however once you reach the South Pole, you’re no longer going south but north (and then once you reach the North Pole, you’re heading south again).

As for map – I wasn’t really referring to any map in my last post, but the fact we know Cantha is south of Tyria. Though Elias did post the best reference to a world map we have.

@Son of Elias: Yes, that’s the map I refer to when talking about continent placements (though as said I didn’t refer to any map in my last post) – however, linking the clean version would probably be less confusing to some folks (you know, those extra boxes of fan speculation). However, we knew that Cantha was south of Tyria LONG before that map texture was found in GW2. We knew it was south of Tyria since we knew of Cantha back when Factions was getting the public spotlight.

@Cerbeius: Fan speculation of possible future expansions. Just as fans added the boxes around Tyria, Elona, and Cantha, and put the GW1/GW2 maps over their respective places on that map. You can pretty much ignore the boxes.

Zaxares.5419:

Perhaps Primus is simply the title given to the Charr in charge of a particular fahrar, and there could be multiple Primuses (Primes?) at any one time.

That would be correct. You may have been mistaking Primus with the alternative title for Khan-Ur: Primus Imperator, in which there can be only one.

Zaxares.5419:

Noted about the parent-child relationship too. I was basing my answer off my experiences in the Sorcerous Shaman Sire path, where it seems that Clement Forktail regretted not playing more of a role in the Charr PC’s life. Of course, this may be his personal attitude and not indicative of Charr as a whole. It does seem though that, based on overheard NPC conversations around the Black Citadel, that Charr parents (or perhaps civilian ones, at least) do remain a large part of their children’s lives.

@Penny: That’s what I thought too, but during the Sorcerous Shaman path, a Flame Legion shaman confronts Clement Forktail and accuses him of betraying his warband to the Iron Legion. Clement responds by saying that he should have remained loyal to his Legion first, and not followed his warband to the Flame Legion out of loyalty to them. Warbands do fracture, after all; there are leadership challenges, deaths of old members and new members are occasionally inducted into the warband, but the Legion remains constant.

To the parent-child thing, from my memory that only case of a parent’s influence on a child in the Black Citadel is from where adults are talking about children activities (which doesn’t necessarily mean they’re parents – the Black Citadel does have a fahrar so whether or not they’re parents there’d be a lot more adult-child interaction than compared to other known fahrars in Ascalon, such as the one in Fields of Ruin), and the one of a charr parent from LA (iirc) giving her child a tour before sending him off to a fahrar.

As to the loyalty to warbands of Legion – it’s typically to warband first, and that situation shows such – Clement was loyal to his warband, who defected from the Iron Legion into the Flame Legion, but later regretted his actions and wished he remained loyal to his Legion. And as just said, the Legion that a warband serves does not remain constant – a whole warband could probably be transferred to a different Legion, just as the whole warband may defect to Flame as Clement’s did.

Penny.3761:

Hmm, now when I look at it from this point you have right, however when I played Sorcerous Shaman path I thought “Clement, you are so stupid…” because it looked like he was loyal to his warband without even thinking about what they were doing. It’s not like you have to follow your warband blindly, when you think that your Legionnaire is leading you to disaster it is charr’s right to disobey him/her. But well from this point loyalty chain with the Legion at the first place sounds legit.

That pretty much was what he was doing – being blindly loyal to his warband, rather than really thinking about the situation. And its an action he later regretted, hence why he came clean to his child (and basically, hence the entire plot of that storyline).

Off the top of my head, no. But I’m fairly sure that dryders – like a vast majority of D&D lore – originates from an older mythos, even if not the exact same name or identity. Most Tolkien and D&D fantasy originates from norse mythos (incuding, yes, dark elves – though in the original norse mythology, dark elf and dwarf are one and the same), so my bet would be there.

The seer structures were more likely to be in reference to the Bloodstones, since in GW2 we learn they’re of seer origin.

I don’t see a similarity with that statue and the seer model, personally.

I think before the wild speculation continues, two things should be noted:

1) There was a thread like this a while back.

2) Gargoyles disappeared in 1185 AE – overnight, might I add. Reason unknown to all – they just up-and-vanished.

Given the date, their disappearance seems unlikely to be tied with the Foefire (happened 95 years prior to Gargoyle disappearance) or Kralkatorrik’s rise (happened 115 years after Gargolye disappearance).

There is something to note: Thorn disappeared for quite a few generations ago as well, and gargoyles returned (even if altered and momentarily) with his return. So it’s possible that gargoyles and mergoyles (both having disappeared since GW1) were more tied to Halloween than previously suspected. The change in their appearance to fiery griffons or destroyer-like rockdogs (why oh why couldn’t that rockdog appearance have been used for a third kind of destroyer!?) could be due to just a redesign between games – seeing how many creatures got such redesigns. Said redesign was likely based off of this concept art while also re-using art resources since it was just Halloween.

endeavor.7530:

So it appears that Orr or South of Cantha… which would be north of Tyria technically according to the map I always see Konig use. Though humans started migrating from there, they’re not originally from there but another world with the Mists connecting?

Cantha is definitely south of Tyria, not north. I don’t know how you get otherwise. There’s an entire hemisphere between south of Cantha and north of Tyria.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

How in the world did you infer that from the Nolani mission cinematic. “A new Life, Free of the Charr” in no way implies what you suggest. What you bolded was advice.. given by Rurik, that led to his banishment and disownment.

They were refugees, making a new home, led by a disowned and banished Prince.

Nothing about the flight of farmers and common citizens to safety implies rebuilding and retaking Ascalon. The entire cinematic context matters, as well as the actual flight of what was in NO way an army retreating to build strength. The missions that follow this clearly show that.

There was a fairly large enough group of (former) Ascalonian army members joining in the flight, and plenty of folks remains to help safe passage of later refugees. Not everyone who left were farmers and citizens.

But at this point, it’s as drax said, and we’ll just have to disagree with our interpretation of Rurik’s words and actions.