If you were to go off of NPC models for humans you would think the only option was white/Caucasian Ascalonian models. I think there is obviously room for expansion in the types of customizable characters.
Except that there are dark tanned and black humans in GW2, just as there are white models. There’s also a very small handful of asian appearance NPCs.
And GW1 featured a large variety of skin tones among NPCs.
However, humans are a greatly skin-tone differencing race, whereas polar bears is on par to white humans. If the kodan were just simply “bear people” then I can easily see it – you’d have black bears, grizzly bears, polar bears, panda bears, etc. But you don’t. You just have polar bears, aka white bears.
Harpies are female-dominated. We don’t know if their males even exist, but if they do they’re probably like the female Jotun—restrained in the home. Also, from observing Harpy behavior in Guild Wars 1, it seems very likely that Harpies have no males at all and instead mate with Griffons.
In GW1, those griffons were harpy hatchlings (which made a big “wtf” when you got “Elder Skree Griffon” which basically meant “Elder Harpy Hatchling”) – this seems to have been retconned between the games.
Harpies are known to have natural aphrodesiacs in their sweat, and there’s an event in Fireheart Rise where they seduce a grawl. In Fields of Ruin you can also see they lay eggs that are… very huge. So they seem to (forcibly) mate with males of other species (possibly a large number of), or are asexual (self-reproducing asexual). So I’d say there are no male harpies (especially since the race are insultingly called “she-beasts”) – that, or their males have boobs with high voices too.
Calling Primordus the “dragon of destruction” and Kralkatorrik the “dragon of perfection” is rather speculative.
And I fail to see how ice = air.
And how can the dragons be the perversion of the gods’ power, when they predate the gods(’ influence on Tyria)?
I’m not sure what “images” you’re talking about. The designs on the sides? Which one are humans? Which ones are charr? Which ones are Ascalon? I don’t see any of this.
I think you’re trying to make something out of simple designs.
However, if those really are intended to be depiction murals, then it’s unlikely to be related to the Forgotten finding Glint (though serving her is another story), or Kralkatorrik or Glint’s baby. They hold no relevance to the Flameseeker Prophecies. If they’re depicting something, I’d imagine the subjects would be Ascalonians, charr, dwarves, White Mantle, mursaat, forgotten, Glint, Khilbron aka Lich Lord, and/or titans. The text itself is just a transcript of Meerak the Shouter’s dialogue from post-Searing, and he never mentions half of those things so…
And Glint’s baby has always been canon, btw (not cannon).
I really wouldn’t consider how strong allied NPCs are compared to enemy NPCs as lore. For mechanical (aka playing) purposes, they’re made weak – this is to help prevent players from just afk’ing fights, and to give players an actual advantage.
The advantage is probably that stone is more durable than flesh, and they probably don’t age. Mind you, we can’t be certain, however we do know they live longer – Jalis Ironhammer in GW1 is at an old age and is ~120 if I remember correctly (certainly younger than 200), yet in GW2 there are dwarves still living as stone – so it definitely expanded their lifespan by over 100 years regardless of other advantages.
In response to others (because I love dashing hopes):
Harpies – highly unlikely. Firstly, I think it was outright stated that GW2 won’t have flying, though I may be wrong on this. Secondly, all harpies are female, and since they went through the trouble of giving sylvari genders… Thirdly, they’re a very – and I mean very – primitive race.
Centaurs – Anet outright stated early on that they wanted centaurs to be a “black race” (aka evil with few redeeming qualities), and given the model I just don’t see them making it worth the hassle for armor.
Hylek, Skritt, Ogres, and Quaggans – won’t happen. Ever. Why? Racial sympathy, that’s why. Same goes for grawl which haven’t been mentioned yet.
Dwarves – they’re pretty much extinct. They won’t return as a playable race, most likely. Maybe as NPCs, but even that’s questionable in the long run.
Kodan – they seem unlikely given the lack of customization abilities in appearance. Charr have leopard patterns, tiger patterns, Siamese cat patterns, plain patterns, etc. Kodan? They have white, white, and more white. Polar bear people is very limited.
Undead (joko’s or otherwise) – possible, but they’re not really a race. I mean, Joko turns any race into an undead, so the variety is too great to make a playable race out of, both due to being too complex (they’d have to share animations with other races, which breaks the “each race have their own unique animations,” or multiple undead versions of races will share animations, which will just look silly) and due to how NPCs can have even greater variety (in GW1, you got human, centaur, giant, and seemingly charr undead in Joko’s army – in GW2, it can easily spread to heket and harpy, even perhaps ogre).
Now then, my opinions and why:
Tengu – their GW2 models share postures with charr, meaning that they can easily use charr armor designs just as sylvari and human share such. It is said in the Making of Guild Wars 2 book from the CE that the tengu were originally a candidate for a playable race, with the Dominion of Winds to be their starter city, but were cut – however, ANet still views them as a race with future potential. At the end of the personal story, one tengu who joined the Pact says he’ll take news of other races’ abilities to his people, and other tengu say they’re evaluating the races to determine who are their allies and who are their enemies.
Tengu also have among the largest lore established of GW1 races outside humans (even more than there was lore for charr in GW1, and on par to dwarves). In GW2, they also have four houses – similar to how charr have four legions, asura have three colleges, and humans have three social statuses. They can easily be added in any sort of future expansion – be it related to Cantha, or something else in Tyria.
Largos – though not a lot known on them, they seem to be presented in a similar manner as sylvari were, except using the game as the medium of introduction, rather than articles like The Movement of the World. Furthermore, they can easily share human/sylvari armor models with minimal alterations (if any) due to the placement of the wings, at the nape of the neck. And similar to the tengu, there’s a largos who said she’s going to tell her people word of the Pact’s accomplishments against Zhaitan – and its heavily implied they’re fighting the deep sea dragon, so at the very least they will be playing a bigger role. They can easily be added in an Unending Ocean expansion dealing with the Deep Sea Dragon.
I cannot really see a third race as a possibility – kodan come closest, but their lack of customization bothers me though they can still be added into a Far Shiverpeaks expansion, with a large Sanctuary somewhere in that in-land sea that Jormag made as a home city. Naga are also close, if there’s ever a Canthan expansion, but their lack of legs is harmful to their chances and if there’s a Canthan expansion I suspect tengu to be more likely, despite their lack of modern influence with Cantha.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Saying the seers are preventing corruption is a big as all hell stretch. Because they didn’t prevent corruption, they starved their enemy.
Like I said, corpses cannot procreate.
So no.
I have two theories on this.
First, is that Tyria itself holds a magical source – of course, based on the huge number of skill challenges related to water (or a site of massive massacre), water seems to be a magical conductor of sorts, so it could be just that. We also know that The Artesian Waters are a powerful source of magic in Orr (with Zhaitan having been drawn to it), which is the source of all water in Orr, furthering this (both possibilities).
Second, and equally likely imo, is that this is tied to the deep sea dragon. Take note of the Krait Altar text in Caledon Forest.
This dark stone altar has been the site of many krait sacrifices of slaves in rituals designed to appease the krait prophet, who they believe will someday return to flood the entire Tyrian continent.
And on the krait religion:
Krait society is dark and fanatical. Led by their priesthood, the Oratuss, the krait follow an ancient doctrine handed down to them by their abyssal prophets and constantly foretell of the prophets’ return. The krait religion is based on massive obelisks of a unique, dark stone that can be found exclusively and rarely on Tyria’s ocean floors. The krait believe that each of these obelisks was raised upon the site of a krait prophet’s ascension into a mystic world, a world beyond this one, where these nameless prophets are building an army great enough to eradicate all other species. One day, they will return and drown the surface of Tyria beneath one massive sea. The krait sacrifice slaves to show reverence to the prophets and to ensure that the prophets will have servants in their mystical “other world."
Krait have never developed a written language. They have excellent memories, and their religious texts are memorized, Vedic-fashion, by the priesthood. These texts are vast in scope and difficult to memorize; becoming a krait Oratuss is a lifelong journey and requires tremendous, all-consuming dedication. Furthermore, unknown to the krait people, the priests ensure the continuation of their power by subtly changing the words of the massive memorized texts, ensuring that whatever interpretation they require is upheld somewhere in the canon.
Land-based historians and scholars theorize that the obelisks on the sea floor are not mystical, but are ancient monuments to religious figures and societal governors of the krait. Because the krait memorize their lore, some information has been lost over the centuries. The krait race has forgotten the obelisks’ true purpose and has invented instead a mystic reverence for the monuments and those they represent. Certainly, the obelisks are eerily smooth and have no symbols on them, and thus cannot relate their history firsthand. The krait Oratuss are the ones who interpret the meaning of these monoliths for their people—and because of the fanaticism of these priests and priestesses, the story of the obelisks’ creation and purpose has been twisted to religious use.
Like the obelisks, the krait are steadfast and immobile in their beliefs. Their legends state that all the races living above water were driven out of the sea by the prophets and forbidden to return. Although these legends seem patently false to other races, the krait refuse to listen to any “heresies” from other races; destroying them seems a much more effective way to ensure that the krait religion is not defamed.
Faith altered to control the people, monuments marking something, claimed to be prophets who left and will return bringing an army that will wipe out the races of the world. These prophets sound very dragon champion-like. They pushed races out of the ocean depths in the past? Hmmm, we know that one such race got pushed out long ago, presumably by the deep sea dragon and three races got pushed out to the surface this time.
And what better outcome to create for an Elder Dragon who corrupts water than to flood the world?
I think the krait faith got twisted, these prophets being the DSD’s champions (and “the prophet” being the DSD itself). But that this got twisted so long ago, they no longer realize this, and are fighting their own very prophets (or… are they?).
You folks should play through Citadel of Flames and read Fireheart Rise skill challenges.
Baelfire, the Flame Legion imperator, is/was attempting to become a god – though how is never really stated, he does have a fiery-giant form that he takes on.
An in old interview, Ree (I think) stated that though the Flame Legion are still attempting to enforce religion on all charr, they’ve learned their lesson about worshipping external beings (aka, destroyers and titans). I’ve speculated for some time in the past that they’re intending to siphon power from Primordus to effectively make their own dragon champion aka god, but this doesn’t seem to be the case.
The shamans, as Weindrasi said, develop a fiery look via rituals of self-mutilation. These same – or rather, similar – rituals are seen during the Traitorous Shaman charr sire storyline, where they enforce rituals that turns prisoners into Embers (aka fire elementals) and one of them sacrifices himself to empower a Charr Effigy.
Shourded in acrid smoke and igneous heat, this is the site of fiery self-mutilation rituals performed by members of the Godforged – a Flame Legion sect dedicated to the deification of Gaheron Baelfire.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Forest – on the self-mutiliations
It does appear to me that they’ve siphoned power from Kralkatorrik, at least in the past, to imbue their Searing Cauldrons with his power – the Searing Crystals look like dulled (aka weaker) Branded crystals. And the Searing Effigy fought during one of the CoF explorable paths also has purple fire of the same shade and hue as branded creatures’ attacks.
Gaheron’s “god form” may be tied to Primordus, though there’s no real hints to any ties to destroyers or Primordus one way or another. However, something to note is that the Pact is interested in the Flame Legion – and they’re only interested in Elder Dragons. Though the introduction for Citadel of Flame story dungeon is that the Flame Legion supposedly has a weapon which could be used against the Elder Dragons which the Pact is interested in, there’s never mention of what this weapon actually is (the transformation? the Eternal Flame which is used in attempt to resurrect Gaheron? the Searing Effigy?), and the methods of “self-mutilating rituals” are never really elaborated – though the fact that they produce Embers rather than destroyers says something about its nature being non-dragon corruption. Either way, Gaheron’s too self-intelligent and pro-Flame Legion to be a dragon champion – his mentality just doesn’t fit.
2) The Flame Legion have very distinctive structures, and following the theme of corruption, these buildings tend to be formed of some kind of volcanic, heated rock. These buildings in themselves follow similar patterns to those formed of Corrupted Ice, and only appear where the Flame Legion are. I really doubt this is coincidence.
Corrupted ice? No, it looks nothing like that.
However, there are jagged rocks of the Dragonbrand which share the exact model – except the Dragonbrand version is darker (black ground) with purple glow, rather than charred/brown/burnt land/rocks with an orange fiery glow. However, this in of itself doesn’t say much, as much of the Dragonbrand looks like it was super-heated (thus burned) as it was corrupted.
We genuinely don’t even know how he makes Destroyers, or why they’re parodying living creatures like crabs and trolls.
While we don’t know why Primordus prefers mimicing living creatures rather than corrupting them, we do know how Destroyers are made – read Edge of Destiny. It explicitly shows (or describes, rather) destroyers being slowly formed together in pools of lava – effectively, they’re created by conjoining rocks and lava in lava-based “spawning pools.”
In the case of Glint, she likely made those in the same manner that any dragon champion can make more of their kind, albeit slightly differently since they might not have been corrupted beings.
The spiders is a good point, though, but its likely a case that the spider was killed while pregnant – which is one of the two possibilities presented off the bat for the destroyer “eggs” (after all, a corpse cannot breed – of any ED minion, I’d expect destroyers and risen to be the ones who no matter what cannot reproduce by biological means).
I always figured it was Dry Top too. They were fairly detailed with the SW corner of the Maguuma Jungle where it was accessible in GW1 – you can very clearly make out the remainder of Tangle Roots as well as The Falls. Almost as if they took the GW1 unexplored map and just repainted it, but forgot to repaint that section.
You and your birthing fetish, people!
Jeesh
Why would he breed Icebrood when he can just wave his figurative wand at random beings and transform them into Icebrood?
I’d be just another means of producing an army.
However, everyone’s forgetting one very important fact:
There is no known dragon minion which breeds, icebrood or otherwise. This is why the destroyer “eggs” were such a surprise in the skritt racial storyline (though I cannot see those as being eggs laid in a conventional animal manner, give how they spawn fully formed Destroyer Crabs, and I think a Destroyer Troll too).
@Buddhakeks: Though if one were to look at the scholar experts who’re studying those ancient races you get…
Sylvari=Forgotten – both work with balance (according to the kodan the sylvari do at least) and hold means of anti-corruption (the forgotten had weapons that couldn’t be corrupted, I hear, and they had spells to remove the mental links of corruption)
Human=Seers – both work well with magic, and are a falling race during the ED rise (the forgotten fell much much later)
And the other three as you said. Though arguably all races (sans dwarves?) were magitechnologically advanced, with jotun said to be the most so (magitech wise, I presume jotun and asura were closest, but culturally, I presume jotun and norn, and mursaat and asura).
As I said, the Sons of Svanir have shown to corrupt unwilling and hesitant individuals. But these are the Sons of Svanir, not icebrood – mindless or otherwise.
Dragonspawn is an interesting subject – but keep in mind the description of the sole detailed icebrood that returned – a norn who’s face was half caved in. That guy couldn’t be alive, so its likely the norn sent back are all corpses. Or at least most of them. The Dragonspawn nearly corrupted Zojja, via mentally getting her to want to be like the Dragonspawn (more or less) – in other words, the Dragonspawn “tricked” (mesmer-like) Zojja into wanting to become icebrood. But this doesn’t seem to be the case with any other dragon champion of Jormag’s, so I’m betting this is a unique champion (as neither Drakkar nor the Nornbear did this, nor does the Claw of Jormag by all indications).
Though my point remains – regardless of wording, it seems to be Jormag’s choice to first seduce and then corrupt (mentally or otherwise). And by seduce, I mean more of “convince to join.” Similarly, it seems to be Primordus’ choice to not corrupt living beings (though given his means of making destroyers, it is possible he can’t, but I’d say he’s the only ED with a possible limitation, though again his means to make destroyers may just be due to the fact they’re made of rock and lava not living beings).
In Edge of Destiny, it said that Rytlock had a stone sheath. I doubt it’s magical though. And you wouldn’t put them on your back.
You know, I see that comparison a lot – but only from players.
Are we truly “but ants to them”? I don’t think so. We are their food source, their army source, their foot soldiers. They corrupt and learn from us, learn our culture and that we could be a threat (even before we struck down Zhaitan he knew that these so called ants could be threats. We, as humans, would never think ants as any of these. (note: by “us” and “we” I mean the races of Tyria)
They are above the races, but I cannot see them viewing us as mere ants. They are a resource at worst, and wild animals needing to be tamed and domesticated (like how we treat cows or horses) at best.
And given the mentality we’ve seen of them – that they view certain individuals better than others, that Zhaitan gives leadership roles to former leaders (turning royalty into the Eyes of Zhaitan, turning a former ship captain into the leader for his naval forces (Morgus Lethe), having princes, admirals, and viziers being his assault force leaders, etc.), I cannot see that they overgeneralize or view the races as mere “ants.”
Think Pokemon, gone asura style. That’s what Polymock was in GW1.
I saw a concept art of a Risen Largo once so that got me into a bit of confusion about them. So far there are no corrupted Largo.
That model seems to have been scrapped as a largos, and is now used (slightly modified with the wings I believe) as the Dwayna High Priestess model (and the Statue of Dwayna at the temple model).
However, I believe Sons of Svanir are Norn only if I remember well. There are still Koda and Quaggan that make an exception so, after all, corruption doesn’t apply just to SoS alone. Jormag may corrupt female Norns independantly from Sons of Svanir.
I never said only Sons of Svanir turn to icebrood.
No one has.
What has been said is that Sons of Svanir – who are indeed norn – eventually become corrupted, and their leaders use icebrood models.
Yeah, I don’t understand at all what happened with my post Konig. Pretty much I had written about you being a bit wrong in Jormag’s corruption not being forced on individuals by using the Honor of the Waves storyline as an example. I can see that you and others have already gone over this by now though. So back to figuring out how the forums “simplified” my post, lol.
You know what’s truly ironic? I mentioned that very HotW storyline in the very post you were going to refute.
@Oglaf: That’s a pretty huge oversimplification to make, even for an Elder Dragon.
I actually like icebrood quaggans…
“Quaggan is going to kill you!”
The levitating cubes in GW1 are more or less outright stated to be quickly erected power generators that the asura made once they settled in those ruins.
The hub of Asuran activity on the surface world, Rata Sum was quickly and magically erected when the race arrived from their native underground homes. Geomystic generators dot the area, providing free power to the town. Some find the atmosphere within the town uncomfortable, saying you can literally feel the Energy being sucked from the air, but the Asura vow this enchanted technology is “perfectly safe”.
From GW1, Rata Sum’s description.
Said generators are also found in the Central Transfer Chamber – as is the giant pyramid seen in Arbor Bay, featured during O Brave New World.
And support for those ruins being asuran:
It has been centuries since Asura were seen aboveground. In fact, until recently, many humans thought they were a myth. However, recent reports have confirmed their existence.
From GW1 manual. If they were on the surface centuries ago, one would expect them to have once had settlements on the surface (I cannot see the asura living in the wilderness or living in other races’ buildings).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
The only similarity with dwarves norn have is crazy facial hair (but women norn lack such unlike dwarves) and enjoy ale. Dwarves aren’t crazy about legends and norn don’t tinker with machinery or mining. Charr are closer to a replacement for dwarves, since they too like ale, their females have hair, and they’re big on tinkering with machinery.
Yup, charr=war dwarves.
The submarine is indeed used by the Pact (its origin lies in the charr – you can see the prototype, the Iron Barracuda iirc, in Plains of Ashford on the western shores of Ascalon Basin).
Also Icebrood in fact aren’t Sons of Svanir. Sons of Svanir are followers of the Dragon as they see it as a spirit of the wild, while Icebrood are corrupted entities, as we see they can be Norn, Koda, Quaggan, Largo and so on. So the rules consequence of Jora’s actions against the cult of Svanir do not apply to Icebrood.
Well, firstly, there’s no icebrood largos.
Secondly, Sons of Svanir do eventually become icebrood (and there are sentient icebrood that lead the Sons of Svanir – most Svanir shamans are, in fact, using icebrood models).
The consequences of Jora’s actions might hold a side-effect on who becomes icebrood, since as I’ve said the Sons of Svanir do in fact channel Jormag’s power to create new icebrood (these being the “shamans” – which, again, many appear as icebrood but are very much sentient and, more importantly, with the mentality of Sons of Svanir).
My impression is that Jormag can corrupt someone without their consent – in fact, there are events where Svanir shamans forcefully corrupt someone against their will (and, if they succeed, you have to put down the corrupted result).
What actually seems to distinguish Jormag is that it at least tries to recruit willing servitors rather than taking every minion by force. I suspect, now that we know dragons are capable of showing strategy, that this may be the dragon adapting to circumstance – when Jormag realised that there were norn out there that were looking to serve it willingly, that was too good an opportunity to pass up.
What is with you and Thalador, constantly mistaking my use of the word “doesn’t” to mean the same as “can’t”
Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings – this doesn’t mean he can’t.
Jormag doesn’t forcefully corrupt – this doesn’t mean he can’t.Doesn’t != can’t
And as shown in Honor of the Waves story, there are indeed icebrood that are unwillingly corrupted – this is also shown in the NE corner of Frostgorge Sound. Whether this is Jormag’s preference for Kodan (since they’re the only ones shown to be forcefully corrupted) or the act of Sons of Svanir (whom are the cause behind the HotW story corruption) is left debatable.
@Narcemus: Errored post?
Ummm… I wasn’t confusing “doesn’t” with “can’t”. In fact, the post I was responding to comes across pretty firmly in the “can’t” category:
Konig Des TodesThe thing about Jora being able to resist Jormag’s corruption is that one must willingly accept his corruption. He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things. He only corrupts willing people.
Emphasis mine. The first emphasised section at least strongly implies that one can only be corrupted by Jormag if one accepts the corruption willingly – which has been proven false in a number of events. The second emphasised section reinforces this interpretation by saying that he universally corrupts the willing.
Now, what you wrote does allow for the possibility that Jormag is capable of forcing corruption but chooses not to exercise that capability – however, as stated above we know that Jormag not only can but does exercise that capability. It’s just that if someone comes to him willingly, he’s not going to pass up the easy convert.
My interpretation of the second post quoted above may not be what you intended to say, but the fault of the miscommunication here is not in how I interpreted what you wrote, but in how you wrote it. What you wrote says, twice, with little if any room for alternate interpretation, that Jormag never corrupts anyone who doesn’t choose to be corrupted.
You should read the line between the two you bolded of my post:
He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things.
It’s what he does, not what he’s forced into doing because he can’t do other things. He only corrupts willing beings because that’s his choice, not because he can only corrupt willing beings.
And I’d like to note that no event shows that Jormag himself corrupts unwilling individuals. As I said in my previous post: _ Though the Sons of Svanir are another story._ Allow me to elaborate: The Sons of Svanir themselves corrupt unwilling (or in the case I’m sure you’re thinking about – the event in northern Dredgehaunt Cliffs with the “potential mate” male norn – hesitant) individuals, but Jormag and the non-SoS-mentality icebrood never do. And this unique act is noted by Order of Whisper agents in Frostgorge Sound.
If there’s a fault, it’s more in that you didn’t seem to take into consideration what laid between the sentences you emphasized in meaning, and that I didn’t elabroate on the mention of Sons of Svanir being an exception.
That’d be in GW2 you heard about seers and mursaat uniting – against the Elder Dragons, in an alliance with the forgotten (not forsaken), jotun, and dwarves. The five held an alliance against the ED during the ED’s previous rise (whenever that was), and the mursaat betrayed the other races and fled the world.
That alliance is more than enough reason to actually unite forces.
And we actually know nothing of seer culture – pre or post fall.
If you’re counting minor races, Jormag seems to hold an interest in kodan as well as norn (the large number of norn icebrood is probably just because of the Sons of Svanir).
Incidentally enough, there’s a quaggan in Timberline Falls which tells us an Elder Dragon forced them out of their home (rather than the krait as the blog post says). To quote: “When the dragons spewed their filth across Tyria, the quaggans had to flee.” (next dialogue line) “Quaggans swam upwards, into the air, onto land. There was no other choice. But quaggans found other enemies in shallow waters. The worst are the krait.”
Well the “front door” is actually an asura gate, so that’s not really saying much.
But I do believe the sky above the Infinite Coil Reactor is clear so…
I’ve always leaned in the direction of “made by multiple races” – I can easily see it being the construct of the alliance of five race’s creation (mursaat, seer, jotun, dwarf, and forgotten). In the Hall of Monuments there are… five stands – one of which in GW1 held a huge jotun-sized sarcophagus (which led me to originally believe jotun origin until we see jotun citadels in GW2). I’m led away from the notion of mursaat due to the Ring of Fire structures, and I’m led away from seers because of statues in certain Far Shiverpeak dungeons in GW1 which look very seer-like, and the nearby structures which appeared to be made out of ice/crystal like substances (much like I would expect from the description of Moladune). It’s not dwarven or forgotten based on GW1 structures either.
So all this leads me to believe either it was a combined effort, much like Lion’s Court (the lion statue in LA – different parts of it was designed by different races), or it was made by the Giganticus Lupicus, though I think it’d be a tad bit small for them.
I think those “volcanic outposts” around Ascalon are made “volcanic” by the Flame Legions’ magic, rather than being naturally formed. A scorching there, a burning here, and any run of the mill elementalist can duplicate many of those castrums.
Considering the Flame Citadel’s interior – there’s a “Mausoleum of the Khan-Ur” – this gives me indication that the place has been around for a while, as the name implies it holds bodies of past attempted Khan-Ur – something that Gaheron hasn’t been able to do, so despite that being where he’s trying to be resurrected, I doubt its named after his death.
Because we know for a fact at least Primordus and Zhaitan were specifically said to be a part of the last cycle (and the others are assumed as well, it’s just that we get those specific names from the Dwarves)
We get Jormag’s name from dwarven legends too, and we know Kralkatorrik was thanks to Glint. The questionable one would be DSD and “Mordremoth.” Though we know there were six ED previously.
while there are 6 dragon and only 5 races we really only know the name and possibly theme of the sixth dragon, so when the time for the dragon to show up we may have a sixth races.
You do realize that we know even less of the Deep Sea Dragon – the fifth one.
As for Primordus and Asura, There are Asura who believe in proving there invention no matter what the coast, even if it is someones life, showing a desire of innovation over, life of others.
Those are Inquest, which aren’t really the standard asura. It’s like saying Jormag’s the opposite of Sons of Svanir norn.
Even from a development point of view, they don’t seem to be opposites – from a development/storyline view, I can see how one race would be more focused on one dragon than the rest – though one would think that if this is the case that it’d be humans focused on Zhaitan, not sylvari. As things stand, there’s no Elder Dragon for humans to focus on primarily – DSD don’t really affect them and if theories on Mordremoth hold true, then he affects sylvari the most. Unless we were toview this as not a “race x is more focused on dragon y” but rather “when fighting dragon y, we focus on the lore of race x” which means irregardless of the leading NPC (in this case, Trahearne – if my suspicions are correct, then Jormag’s leading NPC will be Sigfast or Skarti), there will be a focused race in which Zhaitan=humans; and most likely Mordremoth will be sylvari, Jormag be norn, Kralk be charr, Primordus be asura, and DSD be… largos? shrug
But that’s all conjecture into the minds of the developers and their intentions for plot focus, rather than lore.
Either way, I can’t see the Elder Dragons being opposites of races. If that were true, then the norn’s opposite would be wanting to be unheard of, and the charr’s opposite would be peaceful.
I also recall an NPC mentioning that the CoE is the “heart of the Infinite Coil Reactor” = which would imply underground (iirc, its the same NPC who explains that said Infinite Coil Reactor was built as a replacement for the Thaumanova Reactor that blew up in Metrica Province).
My impression is that Jormag can corrupt someone without their consent – in fact, there are events where Svanir shamans forcefully corrupt someone against their will (and, if they succeed, you have to put down the corrupted result).
What actually seems to distinguish Jormag is that it at least tries to recruit willing servitors rather than taking every minion by force. I suspect, now that we know dragons are capable of showing strategy, that this may be the dragon adapting to circumstance – when Jormag realised that there were norn out there that were looking to serve it willingly, that was too good an opportunity to pass up.
What is with you and Thalador, constantly mistaking my use of the word “doesn’t” to mean the same as “can’t”
Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings – this doesn’t mean he can’t.
Jormag doesn’t forcefully corrupt – this doesn’t mean he can’t.
Doesn’t != can’t
And as shown in Honor of the Waves story, there are indeed icebrood that are unwillingly corrupted – this is also shown in the NE corner of Frostgorge Sound. Whether this is Jormag’s preference for Kodan (since they’re the only ones shown to be forcefully corrupted) or the act of Sons of Svanir (whom are the cause behind the HotW story corruption) is left debatable.
@Narcemus: Errored post?
Orrian territory is known to have extended into the Tarnished Coast during
he time of the Second Great Corsair War and King Zoran’s reign so if the ruins were human-built, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were of Orrian origins.
That was my original thought, since some Orrian concept art have more aztec designs (ziggurates and the like), however the in-game Orrian architecture is vastly different to the point that even differing architecture changes seems highly unlikely to such a degree.
What technologies are you referring to? The ruins had no technology. They were just stone structures of unique design.
There’s absolutely nothing that points to the presence of seers in the Tarnished Coast. And based on possible dates for the last ED rise, the seer race fell by the mursaat in either roughly 10,000 BE or 2,000 BE – the ruins in EN look newer than either date (though 2,000 BE is certainly likely).
Women are not immune to corruption as the Sylvari are. There are multiple times when a Norn female is killed and becomes a Risen. It happens so frequently I think Anet has a vendetta against them. Also Elder Dragons are supposed to be very poweful. How powerful would an Elder Dragon if a mere gender could stop it’s corruption?
He meant immune just to Jormag as sylvari are to all Elder Dragons. Something I, obviously by my previous post, disagree with.
While we’re on the topic of corrupted women, any theories on why Almorra Soulkeeper survived the Branding when the rest of her warband were not so fortunate?
In an interview after GoA, Jeff (or was it Ree?) stated that she was on the edge of it – during the second Gamescom trailer, as well as the Welcome to the Vigil cinematic, you see the Dragonbrand forming in front of a charr (Almorra), but not behind. The Birthplace of the Vigil skill challenge also is at the edge of the Dragonbrand.
Jormag does not turn females into icebrood at all after this incident.
Not entirely true.
We just don’t know what happens to females. He might kill them, or he might turn them into icebrood and send them north (rather than south like all the males).
The thing about Jora being able to resist Jormag’s corruption is that one must willingly accept his corruption. He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things. He only corrupts willing people. Though the Sons of Svanir are another story.
And we know that females can be turned to icebrood – Honor of the Waves story mode features a female Kodan Voice being turned into an icebrood. Though female norn lies in question.
Seeing how Jormag is actively conscious about his underlings, and that would include the Sons of Svanir’s actions, then its likely that he keeps female norn icebrood away from his Sons of Svanir followers to not reduce morale.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
That’s why I said rumors, I wasn’t too sure. I actually heard both, one source claims he fought the Risen, others the Branded. Since we defeated Zhaitan without hearing anything about him fighting Joko (which I guess the Pact would know about, it’s a huge deal if your foe fights on 2 fronts), I guessed the other thing must be true.
Never once heard of Joko fighting Branded. Only misconception on The Movement of the World article, which only states that Zhaitan’s forces are fighting on Elona’s borders.
I disagree with you Okamaru. Zhaitan doesn’t wish for only himself to grow, based on what we see his minions tell, and one can easily argue all Elder Dragons make their minions do “what other will you to” as well as your argument for Act with Wisdom, but Act – all Elder Dragons make them act with their judgement, not their minions’ – with the exception of the most powerful ones, like the Eyes of Zhaitan, in which even the Risen can sometimes act on their own without Zhaitan needing to address them (though they still act in the benefit of their lord and master, Zhaitan).
Considering that the Elder Dragons predate all five modern major races, and there are six Elder Dragons not five, I cannot see them as being the opposite of said modern major races – Zhaitan’s awakening even predates sylvari by roughly 75 years.
If they are related to races – something, again, that I doubt due to age – then I’d say that they’re the amplification of the races’ negative sides. Jormag grants power to those who seek it, showing to be the negative trait of norn (seeking to become legendary); Kralkatorrik is shown as trying to obtain things not himself, which is relatable to both human and charr in how they aggressively take others’ lands; Zhaitan through his minions show the desire for immortality, which fits humans in how they seek to preserve themselves in the world (for instance, after the Six Gods left Orrians dedicated themselves to preserving Arah how the gods left it for their eventual return; Canthans isolated themselves to preserve their own culture and themselves from the multitude of threats that came in GW1, humanity in Tyria has a tendency to build walled villages and towns, focusing more on defense nowadays than offensive military abilities).
But this stops with Primordus and asura, as Primordus has shown only the desire to kill all life, which isn’t shown in any asura who are most easily seen as innovators – the desire to advance life, basically. And then there’s no playable race for the DSD, and there’s still the age issue.
Given Wintersday, I think Anet learned their lesson about one-time events and the super lag/disconnects they cause.
That’s old concept art from a concept artist who has done quite a few of the armor designs – especially dungeon armors, including heavy CoF armor, T3 human (dubbed “Crescent Moon” armor), and Whispers heavy.
Artist’s wiki category: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Hyojin_Ahn
Original concept art: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Norn_svanir_female_concept_art.jpg
Instead of being proto Sons of Svanir, I’d say that was one of the armor designs for Honor of the Waves.
There’s also the fact that due to how asuran society functions, knowledge is often lost. Asura are by nature very egotistical and fairly paranoid, so they often keep their research hidden in ciphers, behind various traps, and possibly even destroyed upon their death. That’s why modern golems lack heads (well, those not made from Snaff’s designs like Mr. Sparkles), because Oola’s designs which had such were lost after her death.
Given this, a lot of history would be lost even without the concept of asura looking forwards all the time. This fact is also one of the things that led to the Inquest, and probably the project index that’s in Rata Sum which records krewe projects releases.
Nowadays the desert is the location where Krallkatorrik resides. Also there are rumors that Palawa Jokos forces fight the Branded there.
Actually, Joko’s forces are fighting Zhaitan’s forces, not Kralkatorrik’s.
There’s been no mention of Branded activity in the Crystal Desert since Glint’s death, other than his forces preventing travel to Elona via the Crystal Desert.
The biggest issue I have with this is the repeated use of the word ‘lightning’, which is clearly being used in the context of a lightning strike (your focus)
Actually, my focus is electricity. I simply use lightning because it’s what I just happen to write. Lightning strikes, thunder, sparks – I’m referring to all that. Though not static or electrolytes.
Even in layman terms, plasma exists as a state after gas. If the writer of Edge of Destiny also had the misconception that plasma comes after liquid and before gas, then it’s my mistake for bringing up this topic.
Funnily enough, I grew up (not literally, mind you) being told that plasma is a state between liquid and gas.
So not all laymen would say plasma is a state after gas, unless I just have “archaic” (read: out of date by 5 or so years) knowledge.
Slime contains moisture, but can’t be considered water. Although, to counter myself, I haven’t seen any Branded Oozes around.
Funny thing to mention oozes, seems they’re corrupted by Zhaitan – or at least they don’t fight with risen (same with elementals).
And, like I said, crystallizing organic solids does not debunk the notion of liquid being crystallized.
And if you read my last post which you quote, I wasn’t using it alone as a means to debunk, but as one point among many to loosen the notion.
I was referring to the Buzzing Crystals and Shocking Crystals (both junk items) in the loot table, not the crafting materials.
Then it may be better to use that than crystal cores. But my point still stands. And you probably should have corrected me in my misunderstanding when I mentioned charged cores, cuz I’ve always thought you meant the crafting material. But why Branded Air Elementals don’t have those, well, they’re not your branded crystals.
Based on this excerpt alone (I really need to get the book…), the only thing I can infer is that Snaff was trying to grab Kralkatorrik’s attention by being as unnatural as possible in his mind.
Well, yes, that’s what he’s trying to do. What’s important to note is how he does it and why he goes about that method.
The middle part is a bit garbled so I can’t make sense of it, but the end result I’m getting is that Kralkatorrik intended to destroy Snaff rather than become him.
Rather than corrupt him.* Basically, Snaff dived into Kralkatorrik’s mind and was met immediately by a “mental eye” and was nearly corrupted on the spot (but was saved by Zojja grabbing his attention and effectively pulling him out of Kralk’s mind); second time he goes in he’s more prepared and manages to delve deeper into Kralk’s mind without becoming corrupted, though Kralk’s still trying and as he’s trying Snaff realizes how Kralk’s mind works and compares it to a cyclone trying to fill its center. Upon this realization, Snaff figures out that to control Kralk’s body he must become Kralk’s opposite – and since Kralkatorrik cannot corrupt Snaff inside his mind, he decides to destroy what he cannot obtain.
Regarding the concept of Perfection: by definition, perfection means taking only the best qualities (a selective process), as opposed to taking everything; unless you view what you are not as the ‘perfect’ being (or just better), trying to be what you are not is unrelated to perfection.
Therefore, I have to ask: was Kralkatorrik drawn to Snaff because Snaff represented something completely opposite to him, or because Snaff represented what he viewed to be better than him?
There’s actually two definitions of perfection – one is to be without flaw, the other is to be an absolute entity (that is, contain everything – by this definition, the Abrahamic God is the sole thing that’s “perfect” – though I find this definition to be paradoxical at face value).
What Kralk, to me (and yes, this is interpretation), seems to be doing is obtaining everything he can and destroying that which is harmful (the “flaws”) – so to him, Snaff would be a flaw because it is harmful to him. Another interpretation is just that he’s trying to obtain everything and destroy the rest so that he is/has “everything” (which would also lead to perfection in a view) – thus greed.
As to your question: the former – because Snaff was what Kralkatorrik was not. It was what Kralkatorrik lacked.
The only thing we’ve been told about it is that it belonged to a highly magical culture. The examples of Orrian, mursaat, and seers were brought up as well.
My current personal belief, due to the appearance of the Central Transfer Chamber in GW1, is that they’re actually asuran in origin – specifically speaking, of an ancient now-forgotten settlement of asura that met some unknown end.
I really cannot agree with the notion of them being mursaat structures, given the structures found on the Ring of Fire (example ), and the fact that we’re told they’ve been gone since the last ED rise and only returned when known as the Unseen Ones – which would mean that the chance of these being mursaat structures even without the RoF structures is highly unlikely (also, it lacks the “towers that reach the heavens” which describe the mursaat city Saul stumbled upon).
Of course it may turn out that the RoF structures were originally seer in origin due to the similarities in appearance with the Bloodstones, and the fact the structures that block the Door of Komalie holds back titans which the seer shows it knew about, but until such notion gets real credence I’m more inclined to believe the "city of ice and stone’ that was Moladune as well as some of the now-underground structures within the Far Shiverpeaks are seer structures due to the seer-like statues near said Far Shiverpeak structures (though both could be, given the similarities).
It was said in an interview that most thieves profession wise prefer other names – scout being the most common among military usage. Since that’s their primary purpose, with stealth and all.
I think it was the same interview, which was asking about the professions of characters in Ghosts of Ascalon, in which it was said that the magic-using professions are outright identifiable and that’s why the novel identifies Killeen as a necromancer and mentions mesmers and elementalists alongside necromancers (at the time, guardian was still unrevealed and Edge of Destiny which called Logan’s magic “guardian magic” once was not yet released), but other professions are not easily identifiable since fighting styles of any particular profession changes a lot.
Rangers and thieves also use magic, and they’d be identified through such, though since they’re not as keen on magic as the scholar professions they wouldn’t be as easily identifiable – and again, thief is more of a mechanical term than a lore one (scout’s probably the closest thing to a lore term for such a profession, though overall it doesn’t seem to have a single one – scout, spy, thief, assassin, etc. all can mean either the actual act of scouting, spying, etc. or the magical-physical-mix profession that focuses on stealth).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Actually, the reason why the Branded attacked Ebonhawke was because they were trying to follow Kralkatorrik:
Chief Kronan watched the beam go. It was heading south, to Ebonhawke.
That was where the master was going.
Chief Kronan flexed crackling arms. “Follow!” he shouted. Even his voice rang like crystal. “Follow!”
Page 348
And in Fields of Ruin, the NPCs there state how the Branded are trying to head south, and since the Dragonbrand turns sharp west there, the Branded leave the Dragonbrand at that spot. They never get far because the Sentinels are present to keep them from getting far.
Actually, I had completely forgotten about Conan the Barbarian.
Mind you, I’m thinking not only of fantasy stories but also ancient folklore (such as Beowulf who, while not fighting wizards, fought monsters strong enough to kill 20 armed men with ease without any magical hocus pocus unlike the pansy Greek heroes).
There are only six places (that I know of – Kessex Hills, Harathi Hinterlands (personal story only), Brisban Wildlands, Dredgehaunt Cliffs, Lornar’s Pass, and Mount Maelstrom) in which the destroyers are breaching the surface – I think there’s a seventh in Timberline Falls but not sure; there’s also the underground dwarven village seen in Edge of Destiny though. Two of these places are tied to skritt, and two are thanks to dredge mining (Dredgehaunt and Timberline), and as said one’s in an underground dwarven village; in other words more than half of where the destroyers are breaching the surface is at underground tunnels.
Considering this is rather small amounts, and the strongest destroyer is the “megadestroyer” in Mount Maelstrom, which is far from on par to a proper dragon champion, this is a very small force of destroyers. Especially given that Primordus has been making minions for 200 years, not including any leftovers from the Great Destroyer’s killing spree 250 years ago.
So I do not think that the dwarves are done yet – I believe they’re still holding out, but that slowly more and more destroyers are slipping past them.
There are parralels between what we know of the Great Dwarf and what we know of the Pale Tree
What parallels are you talking about? The Great Dwarf is a collective consciousness that was, due to old tales being twisted into myths, believed to be a god. The Pale Tree is a single entity.
Arenanet has also backtracked significantly on the issue of the state of the dwarves – It’s gone from “Extinct” to “Rumours they are about” to Ogden outright saying “They are fighting”.
All uses of calling dwarves extinct has been a subjective view or metaphorical use for “is dying out” or “never seen anymore.”
Most individuals don’t know Ogden’s still around, so only the Durmand Priory knows what he knows, and those who are affiliated or around them, such as the dredge. Its not really backtracking.
I cannot count the number of stories in which a powerful warrior (read: fighter of mundane weapons like swords, axes, hammers, shields, and bows) defeats a powerful wizard in one on one combat – and the wizard is not caught unaware.
Except that in accordance with the Orrian History Scrolls they did have their powers – otherwise Dwayna wouldn’t be able to open portals to other words (Odran only did so with mass sacrifices), Balthazar wouldn’t have been able to sweep the land in flame, or Melandru able to bring forth new life.
The overlapping of domain of some of the gods with the dragons is simply the fact that they both have ties to the elements of nature. It doesn’t signify a connection at all.
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