@Kerinth: 1) I never said we didn’t see mursaat. Please read my posts clearly. I said, despite what it seemed you were claiming, we never saw “from whence they (mursaat) came” in Eye of the North – big difference. 2) That bit on the Stone Summit is not the same as the Stone Summit have bases in the far north (they in fact did not until Sorrow’s Furnace was destroyed and they lost the war, forced into the far north as exile). Your claim was not this either, btw – neither the first nor the second, and was, again, not what I was disputing. Your changing your argument each post.
@Warrior of Asgard: I answered this over on Guru2, so a copy/paste:
As to the Maguuma Wastes, I’m more inclined to blame Primordus for that. Or, alternatively, it’s due to the weakening of the bloodstone there. Keep in mind that the higher altitude parts of the Maguuma Jungle on a whole was already arid – just as northwestern Brisban Wildlands is. The Maguuma was a jungle only in the canyons and lower parts – where water congregated, obviously, but if that water were to dry up… you get wastes. Now take note that the Maguuma Water was magical, and suspected to be so due to the bloodstone’s presence. Therefore, if the bloodstone weakened, then so too would the water’s properties – and thus even if it remains, there’d be less vegitation due to less healing from the water. The issue with this theory comes with: what was the Maguuma Jungle area before the bloodstone landed there? Was it still a jungle, or was it a wasteland?
@Mike: Issue is that the standard sylvari are not all goody-toe shoes, even those not affected by the nightmare. Callach and Caithe are two prime examples – Malyck is a third. They are, as the kodan puts it, close to balance. It’s only the Nightmare Court which are otherwise.
And this aspect of them is hardly because they’re close to nature. One can argue that everyone has degrees of being good and being evil – this is not an unusual thing. So your argument seems kind of oddly placed to me.
@Errant: I don’t think there’s anything that really indicates the Pale Tree knowing what’s behind the nightmare. She outright states even she doesn’t understand the true nature of the Dream of Dreams, so it’s not unlikely she doesn’t understand the true nature of the nightmare either.
@Drax: He’s still labeled Ghostly Hero in the Crystal Desert (all 3 missions and all 5 outposts he’s in).
I can’t see dervishes being added due to lore reasons (they’re all about the gods, so a charr dervish would be a big wtf thing – charr guardian is a close enough call for reasonability).
Ritualist mechanics got absorbed into engineer; aesthetics got absorbed into guardian and necromancer. Unlikely to return.
Paragon mechanics and asthetics got absorbed into guardian and warrior. Unlikely to return.
Currently the eight professions fill all possible niches without stepping on toes. If the three old professions are to return in the old style, they’ll be going into the domain of other professions’ playstyle and thus be redundant – they’ll only differ in appearance at best which would only matter with skill animations. And that is, from a developer’s standpoint, not worth the effort to implement them, especially when they’ll cause (bigger in some opinions) balance issues.
I’m not against these professions, and I’d love to see some NPCs that are ritualists, dervishes, and paragons. But I cannot see them feasibly being playable professions.
kitten. This. This is a must kitten it. What better dance to give an avian race but a bird’s dance?
That or the chicken dance.
I never said anything about things living beneath the mountains to the far north. I said that various NPCs mentioned scary things underground. And the Dwarves do mention the Stone Summit living further north (and while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south) than the regions that we discover, and that Iron Horse Mine isn’t where they suddenly stop. It’s just where the player character’s travels take them. I don’t see how any of this is incorrect.
I don’t understand how stating that the Mursaat made first contact with Saul in the depths of the jungle is an incorrect statement. It emphasized the fact that the various woods, jungles and unexplored regions of Tyria are filled with odd and magical entities, and when we visited the Tarnished Coast in Eye of the North we encountered exactly that.
I respect you as someone who knows your stuff and as one of the wiki’s top contributors, but aren’t you being a little bit pedantic/particular here? If you’re just looking to find anything at all wrong then hey yeah you caught a typo, great, but otherwise what’s the point of saying “you’re right, but I’m going to nitpick and pretend you’re not right”?
You seem to misinterpret/misread me.
I said depths or far north. No indication is ever made that the Shiverpeaks continued much further north off of the original Tyria gw1 map. Or anything about what was underground besides dredge. Similarly, “And the Dwarves do mention the Stone Summit living further north (and while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south)” while true does not talk about the areas north of the Shiverpeaks – you contradict yourself by saying “while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south” – such comments I, at the very least, never recall seeing. But that’s not even relevant to your original post, in which you stated “we heard stories from the dwarves […] of strange creatures living in the mountains far to the north” which isn’t talking about the dwarves living in the far north, nor was I disputing such a non-existent claim.
On the mursaat, you claimed that _"The White Mantle and Shining Blade told us stories of the Mursaat and of the depths of the jungle from whence they came.
All of this (save Orr) showed up in Eye of the North."_ – that is to say, that the depths of the jungle where the mursaat “came from” showed up in Eye of the North. That did not occur (despite popular belief, there is no conclusive evidence to indicate who were the originators of the ruins in the Tarnished Coast).
I was not being pedantic or particular, either, I was merely answering your question: “Would you kindly point out the errors in my post for me (as I am 100% positive that they don’t exist)?” I simply pointed out the errors you made, as you requested it be done by marnick. That is to say, I responded to your question directed at marnick to help avoid the increased hostilities you two were forming so that this thread would not derail more. I had no intention of being hostile nor was I.
@Errant: However, if the Pale Tree doesn’t know of Mordremoth’s existence, then she may be wrong in her claim.
Also your comment still doesn’t address the issue where people try to fit the gods with the dragons without any real reason (except for 6 equals 6 if an obscure myth from a lesser race is taken for granted).
I didn’t address it because I agree with you. There is – by all indication – no relation between the Six Gods and the Six Elder Dragons. My previous posts on the matter have always been about how while 2 or 3 gods match up with Elder Dragons, the other 4 or 3 do not (all dependent on how you match them up).
However, there is reason enough to believe there is indeed a sixth Elder Dragon – or at least there was.
@ draxynnic
(copied from Guru2)
That point kind of goes back to my old persona of the Elder Dragons thread. They all seem to seek different things, and based off of EoD I’m inclined that Kralkatorrik is seeking to obtain everything (which can be either viewed as greed or desire of perfection) – the other Elder Dragons seem to want other things (Zhaitan’s risen often speak of immortality; Jormag’s minions speak of power; Primordus’ minions never speak, but only kill and as their names imply, destroy).
Given the little we know of Mordremoth, I’m inclined to think he’s wanting to spread pain and torture. Not only because it’s how he seems to corrupt, but because that’s the true mentality of the Nightmare Court, and because the most obvious show of his power is through the condition poison (poison is highly common in Twilight Arbor, in Zone Green, and in Experimental Lab Green in CoE). Poison inflicts long lasting pain until death (if death comes as not all poisons kill), and can metaphorically be said to choke life itself. This is what I think Mordremoth wants – e.g. he’s the personification of sadism.
@ marnick
But Utopia was going to be one. And would have. Though I don’t recall any quest – and I’ve done them all – that was an obvious reference to Utopia.
To your examples: Livia and the Scepter of Orr will likely hold a future purpose, given everything we’ve been told about the situation – I find it quite odd that Anet didn’t bring it up in the initial release, tbh. The Scarab Plague and the Twin Queens is historical – as important as, say, the first Guild War (or hell, all three). They were designed to give backstory and produce possible expositions. But mostly just to make the world feel more like a world – that it existed before you turned the program on.
(I don’t think the Lonely Vigil and the Ancient Weapon counts since that was part of a scrapped activity – it’s like saying that Arachnia being mentioned in the gw.dat holds no purpose)
Everything does have a purpose for being added – more or less – but not everything is a hint to future content.
And the Ghostly Hero being Turai was not a retcon to my memory – mind you, I didn’t play before Factions, but I did before Nightfall, and he always mentioned Palawa Joko and that his name was Turai, and this was in fact brought up by Jeff Grubb about how he had to spin an entire tale that was Turai v. Joko from a single sentence. Jaiju Tai in Lion’s Arch, as far as I know, always existed and talked about Cantha too. And the lore about the Great Destroyer and Great Dwarf weren’t retconned either – since they were not changed. I think you’re mistaking the term “retcon” with the concept of changing directions. Retcon implies old things that were public being outright altered or removed, while what you’re talking about is (possibly) the concept that were intended for things simply hinted upon in the past being changed (if such concepts ever existed! As per above, there was no backstory behind Turai and Joko other than Joko was an undead lord that threatened Elona and was defeated by Turai).
@ Kerithan
Pretty much half of the things on EotN that you talked about – there was no mention in-game, ever, of creatures in the depths or the mountains to the far north – we only knew charr came from the north and the tale of the Great Destroyer and Great Dwarf (and of course the Tarnished Coast’s existence). You’re also somewhat wrong on the hints of sea-farers from Factions – it was from Factions but rather An Empire Divided (from the Factions prima guide) and it wasn’t about Mursaat but Margonites. Also, while we’re told the mursaat came from a jungle it’s never said or explained, not even EotN, where that jungle is. It may be the Maguuma, it may be Woodland Cascades, or neither. Though technically that’s just where they were when Saul found them, as they weren’t in Tyria for thousands of years according to Arah explorable.
@ Hunter
The Dream of Dreams (often shortened to “the Dream”) is a place – I believe it to be part of the Mists, personally, but that’s another matter – the nightmare is the darker aspects of the Dream.
@ Zaxares
The corruption seeping through the earth is an interesting concept and would explain why wurms and grubs are among the three animals to be corrupted, since they’re burrowers. The issue I see would be how does that relate to Mordremoth’s corruption – as based on how the Nightmare Court twists the hounds and other sylvari, he corrupts via inflicting pain.
And its Mordremoth – the former thread on Mordramoth apparently typo’d the name. I would argue that Mordremoth is “plant” – except for the grubs, all of the beasts related to the Nightmare Court appear rather planty (the spiders have a more green and thorn-like appearance than most other spiders, should they too be corrupted). Thus, the six Elder Dragons’ elements would be (in order of awakening with Mordremoth last): Fire, Ice, Rot (I say rot and not undeath due to Explorer Hekja during Estate of Decay in which she is rotten and decayed mere minutes after death, even in EoD the newly risen… risen are instantly greyed and decayed in appearance), Water, Crystal, and Plant.
As for the inspiration from Cthulhu mythos, I think that’s more in relation to how the Elder Dragons (Elder Gods? :P) are beyond mortal understanding – one may see and relate them to things, like how one can relate Cthulhu to being a man with wings and an octopus for a head, but they still cannot be understood or fully comprehended by mortal minds as they are currently.
@ Curuniel
The issue with that thinking would be that the sylvari do recognize there is darkness/evil in most if not every being – as the kodan puts it, the sylvari recognize the balance of light and dark in all things (“much to their credit”). They very well do recognize that even good people have darker sides, but those tainted by the nightmare are “forever changed” – a constant theme in the Shield of the Moon storyline. Just as those who are corrupted by Elder Dragons, once one turns to the nightmare there is no turning back. There are also darker sylvari who have not fallen to the nightmare (take Callach, for instance, who is more than willing to harm others for his own benefits and then flee when he’s in trouble without taking the consequences of his actions – but he is not of the Nightmare).
@ Mickey Frogeater
That’s an equal possibility I can see, which is more or less the seconds possibility I mentioned.
@ Avalarion
I thought he did but it has been a while since I did the path so I wasn’t sure. I just recalled for certain he had a brambles PBAoE attack, spawned thorn roots, and had those kitten golems there. Good to know he does use an earth-spike attack – probably is Teeth of Mordremoth.
@ marnick
That is entirely possible, but I don’t think so. Anet has stated quite a few times that they don’t like closing doors. And having Mordremoth dead off the bat kind of does that. However, as proven by Zhaitan, even when dead an Elder Dragon’s influence/corruption remains and might still be able to be spread.
(more in next post)
the GW manuscripts say that Kyrta was a colony of Ascalon.
Actually, they don’t. This was the general assumption by players since Prophecies’ time since Orr was called a colony originally too but Ascalon wasn’t, so people figured without knowledge that Elona was a neighbor to continental Tyria that Kryta was thus a colony of Ascalon.
We now know, however, that Kryta was first settled by Orr before the Exodus. Then something happened and we heard naught about Kryta until 300 AE when Elona settled it.
Something we always knew since day 1 was that Lion’s Arch was the summer home of King Doric, thus the name originates from… Orr! Not Elona nor Ascalon.
Anyways, I don’t see any similarities to Singapore – at least in the original Lion’s Arch. The structures look nothing like modern day LA (in-game or concept art) so I doubt that LA originated as a Singapore reference. At best, it’d be as drax said – while making Lion’s Arch in GW2, Anet began decided to go with such similarities. This would mean – no, the name Lion’s Arch was not inspired by Singapore, but its modern design might have been.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Side note:
The main reason why I don’t affiliate the Pale Tree with this all is threefold:
1. Malyck shows no signs of being like the Nightmare Court which, by definition of the Pale Tree being a dragon champion turned good like the all-too-common hypothesis claims, would be the “natural sylvari.”
2. While I believe the Dream of Dreams is being used by Mordremoth to spread his corruption, the White Stag proves that the Dream of Dreams is not unique to sylvari, and Malyck proves that not all sylvari are tied to the Dream of Dreams.
3. There are too many things not tied to the Pale Tree being corrupted (spiders, wurms, treants, grubs).
The Dream of Dreams vs. the Nightmare
By lore, the very origin of the nightmare comes from the Dream of Dreams. To use The Movement of the World’s wording:
“But the Dream of Dreams also contains nightmares—hidden whispers behind the voices of their fellow Sylvari. They do not understand what it means—but the Sylvari have yet to experience much of the world around them.”
From what I remember – and unfortunately I’m not certain of the source – the first sylvari to fall to nightmare was Faolain (though it was Cadyern who created the Nightmare Court later). This occured in Orr when Faolain and Caithe saw the horrors there, and when Caithe turned away from it (the nightmare) Faolain went towards it. Though to me this doesn’t make as much sense in of itself – but this does tell a striking simility to Jora and Svanir, if one were to replace Jora with Caithe, Svanir with Faolain, and Drakkar with the nightmare.
Make of it what you will. I make of it as the nightmare originating from an Elder Dragon – thus the Elder Dragon is corrupting through the Dream of Dreams. (I doubt there’s going to be much disagreement on this).
Mordremoth’s corruption
Given all of the examples above, this shows the corruption method of Mordremoth (I’ll just be using this as the otherwiseu named Sixth Elder Dragon). With some rare exceptions, these “Blighted” are all plants. These exceptions being the few grubs seen in the Wychmire Swamp meta (and possibly those “Corrupted Grub”s found in Ogham Wilds near the Mosshearts mentioned above), jungle wurms, and the Nightmare Court’s spiders.
Now on the spiders, this may simply be a case of the NC taming them like any run of the mill ranger. And that’s my personal supicion.
And on the jungle wurms – as mentioned before, the same exact model is called a vine – indicating these “wurms” are in fact plants. Their models would concur with this. The question comes in their eggs as there’s a heart in Metrica Province dealing with Jungle Wurm Eggs. My only guess would be that these are a peculiar kind of plant.
This would indicate that with the rare exception of creatures tied greatly with plantlife, Mordremoth only corrupts plants. Just as Primordus only twists rock and lava, and Zhaitan’s minions are all undead, and Jormag corrupts mentally and by promising power, Mordremoth has his own peculiar corrupting methods.
What’s interesting to note is that the Nightmare Court hold a similar fanaticism for the nightmare as Elder Dragon minions. Though with a twist of sadism mixed in.
The issue of sylvari being immune to corruption
There’s a perplexity in all of this, however, and that’s the Nightmare Court themselves. Sylvari are immune to all Elder Dragons’ corruption – or at least they are to Jormag’s, Zhaitan’s, Primordus’ (obviously), and Kralkatorrik’s corruption. They simply die instead of being corrupted (in Jormag and Kralkatorrik’s case, as Zhaitan and Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings – just dead ones and none respectively). Thus, this makes little sense why the Nightmare Court would be minions of Mordremoth. One would think any sylvari Mordremoth tries to corrupt would die.
But there are a few possibilities with this:
Firstly, this immunity may be physical immunity only, not mental. As one may note, Nightmare Courtiers can very easily pass as normal sylvari by appearance alone. Some of the generic models are darker toned, but the unique ones are just as bright as anyone else – this was likely done so that NC NPCs can be easily picked out (similar to how it’s easy to spot a Son of Svanir or Flame Legion charr – all of which have peculiar dying appearances, e.g., many Flame Legion NPCs which aren’t glowing with fire are usually white stripped orange furred). If the immunity is only physical, then a corruption that is solely and purely mental would work around it – counter-argument is Jormag’s corruption is mental – counter-counter-argument is that icebrood still are, well, made of ice eventually.
Second possibility, and most likely, is that the Nightmare Courtiers are not being corrupted – instead, they’re spreading it. Similar to the Sons of Svanir – they are not corrupted by Jormag, but influenced by him and nonetheless are capable of spreading his corruption despite not being made of ice. Counter-argument could be that channeling corruption still corrupts, just slower; counter-counter-argument would be that since each Elder Dragon corrupts differently, this may not be the case for Mordremoth.
Third possibility is as an NPC in the game (forget where) believes – the other Elder Dragons don’t know enough of sylvari physiology to corrupt them, but in this case Mordremoth, having a connection to the Dream of Dreams, does.
(more in next post)
Today, I finally got around to doing the third path for Crucible of Eternity (CoE) (third for me that is) and being able to observe the dungeon in its full. As such, I’d like to present my full view on the matter of the Sixth Elder Dragon’s identity and means of corruption (which is more or less in half-agreement half-disagreement with the general public’s view). I’d post this in one of the pre-existing threads, but I fear they’re either all too focused on a single particular aspect of the general public’s view.
Subject Alpha
As some may or may not know, the main enemy in is an Inquest-created multi-Elder Dragon minion known as “Subject Alpha” – this creature uses abilities reminiscent/named after four Elder Dragons and a “Mordremoth” – specifically, it’s skills are as follows:
*Imprisonment Crystal (Branded crystal)
*Summoning Undead Tendril (Risen Tendril)
*Summoning Risen Asura (self-explanatory)
*Teeth of Primordus (Dragon’s Tooth-esque skill – a fiery rock spike from the sky)
*Teeth of Jormag (a mixture of ice and rock spikes from the ground)
*Teeth of Mordremoth (a row of earth spikes)
The first three are used in every path, while the first three are used only in 2 paths each in a very specific manner (more on this later).
Now, of the three paths, you fight a major legendary boss before the third time fighting Subject Alpha – these foes are Evolved Destroyer, Evolved Husk, and Bjarl the Rampager (an icebrood).
The Evolved Destroyer uses a skill “Tooth of Primordus” – and in the path that leads to it, Subject Alpha does not use Teeth of Primordus.
Bjarl the Rampager uses the Teeth of Jormag skill – and in that path, Subject Alpha does not use it.
The Evolved Husk, as far as I know (I didn’t think of checking) does not use a Mordremoth skill, however during that path Subject Alpha does not use Teeth of Mordremoth.
Seeing the connection yet? Let’s continue.
Nightmare Court’s influence (and not)
The Evolved Husk is, to put it simply, a powerful Summoned Husk – giant plant creatures seen only with the Nightmare Court outside CoE. Along with the Evolved Husk, there are Summoned Husks, Burning Husks, Nightmare Hounds, and Volatile Blossoms in this portion of CoE (similarly, outside CoE in same corner of the Infinity Coil Reactor, at the PoI Zone Green, there are Volatile Blossoms again) – all of which are found in relation to the Nightmare Court outside CoE. This fact has led quite a few folks to further their thoughts of “Pale Tree=Elder Dragon/dragon champion” – I’d like to state here and now, I do not believe this is so, and I feel I can almost disprove this notion. Here is why:
Firstly, on the Husks:
During the meta event in Wychmire Swamp, aptly named The Battle for Wychmire Swamp, the meta event begins with a Warden, Gamarien, who states “I’m scouting Wychmire Swamp for Nightmare Court activity, though I fear an even darker force is at work. I worry these summoned husks are harbingers of a greater foe.” And while there are two Nightmare Courtiers met during the first event of the chain, they indeed hold no other influence over the meta. This meta focuses on fighting “Blighted Husks” and “Blighted Grubs” ending with a battle with a giant jungle wurm (fun fact: jungle wurms are also called Nightmare Vines in Twilight Arbor, this combined with their appears implies they’re plants, not wurms).
This indicates that there’s a second source of these Husks other than Nightmare Court.
On Nightmare Hounds specifically, there is mention in the Town of Cathal in Caledon Forest (marked by a waypoint) that “It’s more than just their heart that is tainted by nightmare. Their very bodies shift into something darker and more malevolent.” when asked about trying to heal the Nightmare Court’s Thorn Hounds.
As things stand, this is all evidence that would state the Nightmare Court at the very least is tied to this Mordremoth. And I’d agree, but not go so far as to say the Pale Tree. Because there are things unrelated to the sylvari who are corrupted by what I’ll dub the “Blighted” (as that’s the naming system given in the Wychmire Swamp meta).
In Ogham Wilds of Caledon Forest, there is an event where Nightmare Courtiers are attempting to corrupt some Mosshearts – and they may succeed, if so we’re tasked in killing them. The thing to note is that these Mosshearts hold the same appearance as the Nightmare Tree fought in Twilight Arbor explorable, though much smaller and mobile. One thing to note is that while sylvan hounds (aka thorn/nightmare hounds) coincide with sylvari, the treants (mosshearts, oakhearts, pinesouls, and willowhearts) do not – they predate sylvari. Yet they can be corrupted in the same manner.
(more in next post)
Actually, we know a sixth Elder Dragon exists. This is a proven fact.
The question is whether or not it’s still alive, if it’s awake, and if not awake and is alive, when will it awake. A second question is whether or not there are more than six Elder Dragons, as the “sextant of swallowers” (aka six Elder Dragons) comes from jotun history, and as far as we know, they never went far out from continental Tyria (on the other hand, forgotten and possibly dwarves did – to Cantha (for both) and Elona (for forgotten)).
That’s because it’s not. Nothing ever said those bones seen in GW1 were Giganticus Lupicus bones. And besides, they’re not canines.
I suspect that those bones are related to the Leviathan (tyrian versions) and/or some other pre-historic aquatic/reptilian race. Same goes for Bone Dragons (unlike Tequatl and Zhaitan’s other champions, the Bone Dragons’ skeleton is actually that of a dragon’s – well, I should say Zhaitan’s champions don’t reveal skeletal structures so they can be akin to Risen Abominations).
And besides, Glint despite being corrupted by Kralkatorrik appears like she was a living being before corrupted (being non-hollow, unlike the Shatterer), and the Claw of Jormag looks to be a skeleton encased in ice (particularly the limbs), which would indicate a now-extinct draconic race (if not dragons themselves, then something close enough for corruption to easily turn them into dragons), which could be related to those bones.
I don’t think the Charr hate the Human Gods as a whole. It’s just that the Charr don’t believe them to be actual “Gods”.
“Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by beings called gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history.”
“Before the time of the humans, it is said the Charr had no gods, no concept of divine beings with more power than themselves. They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world. But to the Charr, these beings were not to be worshiped or feared–they were to be fought, and if possible, destroyed.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr
It’s not so much that they view the term to mean “omnipotent/omniscient” but that they just don’t believe that nothing can be a ‘god’ – they believe in the beings Melandru, Dwayna, Balthazar, etc. but they don’t view them as something to worship – they don’t view them as divine.
E.g., they recognize the being, they recognize others’ definition for god, but they don’t view anything to be said definition of god.
I wasn’t saying he was “too pale to be Canthan” but rather that he’s surprisingly pale for a Canthan.
And as far as we know, the only description for a light source we have would be: “within the Rift, the light of the sun does not reach. Instead, the hall is graced with an unearthly, primal light that cannot be described with words.”
But that’s only for the Hall of Heroes. And we do know that there are stars within the Mists’ skies (and seeing how the sun is a star…).
I fail to see such a “mursaat feeling” to it.
The problem is this goes against the stated goal of allowing players to make their character any race without it affecting their gameplay potential.
This.
There’s only 2 high priestesses of Lyssa – one at the temple meta event, one in Arah seer path.
I never confronted the former, but the latter only says “Zhaitan eats gods!” (when first confronting Farnaz, High Priestess of Lyssa). But I don’t think she was speaking literally. Risen love to use psychological warfare.
He probably means the mainland coast of Janthir Bay. But I disagree and say that the foliage is reminiscent of Pongmei Valley.
’Sides, even the mainland coast of Janthir Bay… no one knows what kind of foliage is there.
@Dinny: Actually, Blimm just stopped believing in the Eternal Alchemy. Nothing says or implies he began worshiping the Six Gods.
But as others said, the reason dervishes can’t exist as a playable race is because asura, norn, and charr (especially charr) are just too improbable to worship the Six Gods.
The odd asura and norn might, and sylvari may pick it up after Zhaitan’s death what with one of Grenth’s reapers visiting and the power behind the temples being more or less proven real, and documents of the Six being found in Arah – though it’s a different question if the sylvari would revere the Six in the same way humans do, rather than seeing the power as the target of reverence, or just seeing the Six as powerful beings, but not something to worship. But charr never will except for the very odd ones – and those “very odd ones” are treated as Flame Legion spies by the normal charr (per one of the NPCs outside the entrance to the Imperator’s Core in Black Citadel – he’s a lawyer defending a charr who picked up worship of gods and is being put on trial with the possibility of death for being a Flame Legion spy just because he worships a god).
@Melchior: You’re rather over-exagurrating for how the asura and norn would act with the Six Gods what with it being “beneath them” and all. But as to the whole race-specific profession – ArenaNet has explicitly stated they do not want to do this, so it won’t be done, and even if they do change their minds, it’d be too much work to balance these professions out with the others. At best, we’ll begin getting more dervish-related skills as human racial skills.
Defeating Dhuum was Grenth’s way to show his worth as a god to Dwayna (and perhaps the others), by the sounds of the lore we’ve gained surrounding the event. So I would say the other gods were for it, but instead of taking out Dhuum themselves went to Grenth and basically said “defeat Dhuum and we’ll accept you as one of us.”
As to why the gods wouldn’t take out Dhuum themselves – probably for the same reason they didn’t take out Abaddon, which is likely related to why Kormir was needed to be present when Abaddon was killed in Nightfall. A transferance of power is required to kill a god, and I would presume that, considering Dhuum’s still alive and Grenth was a half-god but Grenth still absorbed some power, that there’s a limit to how much divine power a single entity can have – so Grenth went from half-god to full-god, and Dhuum went from full-god to half-god (and perhaps regained his power via the deaths in the Underworld which allowed him to repeatedly break out before being re-imprisoned).
It seems to be a one-of-two-scenarios situation. Either they want to get out of the council so they can get back to their own experiments, or they’re power grubby asura who will willingly and actively plot and use just about whatever means necessary to obtain more power.
This is why the Arcane Council openly accepts the Inquest, and actively suppress movements that would harm their (the council and Inquest’s) advancements. This is mostly Flax’s actions, by the looks of things, but not solely Flax.
To get the best out of the Arcane Council’s darker side, go any college’s first mission (the contest – Dynamics and Synergetics shows it more), VAL-A Golem, and up to lvl 30 (any order choices). From my experiences – I haven’t done the weather converter storyline, though.
You spewed out nothing new, and I even said mentioned the mursaat being claimed by most.
But as I said, there’s really too little evidence for such, and new lore on the mursaat in that they fled the world long ago and only recently returned would imply that they don’t have ruins.
Besides, if those were mursaat structures, then how could they be in such disrepair after 6 years? They look like they’ve been abandoned for a couple decades at least and a couple centuries at most – but the mursaat left the world 11,000 years prior to GW1. So it’s immensely unlikely they’re mursaat structures. And then the Ring of Fire structures which are mursaat structures but look nothing like the Tarnished Coast structures.
And that’s ignoring the fact that these same ruins are in Sparkfly Fen, which was once Krytan territory and also has Orrian artifacts.
Rata Sum being an anagram of mursaat holds no weight, seeing how the name is of asuran origin.
There really is no time frame provided. In an old interview with Ree Soesbee (linky) we’re told that the writing of the Tome of Rubicon and the mursaat/seer war happened at about the same time – and that this was before the Six Gods and humanity arrived on the world.
In Arah, we’re told that the mursaat betrayed the races, the seers in particular, then fled the world while the Elder Dragons were awake, and returned “recently” as the Unseen Ones – though not stated, this implies that the mursaat didn’t return until shortly before being found by Saul (“shortly” being in comparison to the 11,000 years that passed, so I’d say little over 100-300 years at best but this bit is complete conjecture). From this we can deduce that the betrayal included the mursaat/seer war that nearly wiped the seers out – which would mean the war occurred during the Elder Dragons’ rise. But this is only logical deduction on limited information.
It’s also indicated that the betrayal and fleeing happened after the Bloodstone’s creation, though I don’t recall outright if this is explicitly stated or simply implied.
So how it seems the events were: Bloodstone creation->Mursaat/Seer war and writing of Tome of Rubicon->Mursaat leave the world->Glint hides the remaining races from Elder Dragons (when she was freed from Kralkatorrik’s corruption is never given comparison to other events)->Elder Dragons go to sleep->Sometime later, Six Gods arrive and bring humanity.
We were originally told that the Six created the bloodstones, but this turned out to be false human history – they found the Bloodstone, Abaddon tampered with it in 1 BE to give all races magic, then the other five split it to reduce the magic.
You don’t really have to do the explorables, btw, as most of the lore comes in the briefing at the beginning and there’s no foes before said briefing. The actual explorables is more about confirming what the NPCs said (to varying degrees) and showing how the things worked. From my understanding, only jotun and seer paths give additional insights, though I may be wrong on this.
In 2001, sylvari weren’t even a figment in the developers’ imagination. :P
Your sources are a little suspect, Dust, as Ree made a later statement about the sylvari physiology and how she’d misspoken in the blog post. Though I’m not too sure if said statement adressed the wood-bone thing or not.
The statement was about organs.
Sylvari do have organs, but they are not similar to animal organs. E.g., they do have an organ to pump sap, and one to breath, and one to digest food, but these are nothing like a heart, lung, or stomach.
@Dustfinger: I would take in-game dialogue over old blog posts and interviews any day. They’re more recent and more canonical, being from the game and all and not an outside source. And currently, in-game sources state that they have wood instead of bone. It’s probably not a perfect endoskeleton – or rather, endoskeleton replica – but it is wood that’s used to support and shape the mass of the sylvari body (the skeleton’s purpose).
It’s outright stated by both devs in interviews and sylvari Menders in the Grove (or was it just outside the Grove?) that the sylvari have wood instead of bone – well, how the Mender put it was that other races are weird and that instead of wood and sap, they have bone and blood.
The blog quote is likely in reference to what wraps around the wood that is the sylvari bone structure – as wood in of itself can count as “tightly-woven” plant fibers (since that is what wood is). The blog post obviously just flavorized it with “stems and leaves” rather than what stems and leaves are made out of.
You should play the asura, if you want to see asuran supremacy.
The Arcane Council is already working for asura supremacy. The level 20-30 asura storyline shows then explicitly. Even to the point where they’re censoring knowledge on the Elder Dragons consuming magic so that the asura can come out on top (somehow…).
And then there’s the Inquest, who’s goals are more or less the same thing except not all asura but just themselves.
The Arcane Council will probably be expanded upon in future content – directly or indirectly.
Abaddon would fit Zhaitan in the way that whoever came into touch with Abaddons magic during their Lifetime would end up his servant after death.
That’s like saying anyone who dies gets judged by Grenth.
Those who were tainted by Abaddon had their soul thrown into the Realm of Torment. This isn’t undeath in any way shape or form.
Zhaitan, like all Elder Dragons consume magic, and the artifacts in the Temple of Abaddon were simply just another set of magical artifacts – after 100 years, you can pretty much assume Zhaitan’s minions already plundered other magical artifacts from the temples.
Abaddon is the god of secrets, and Bubbles is a very secretive dragon.
So is the sixth Elder Dragon.
The DSD is “secretive” only because he’s not in continental Tyria.
All Elder Dragons hold a tie to magic – in so far that they consume it, and corrupted it.
And as I said before – if you count Abaddon over Kormir, then you must count Abaddon’s predecessor over Abaddon, and Dhuum over Grenth. Dhuum holds no ties to ice – ice was a domain of Grenth even before overthrowing Dhuum. And if you insist on keeping Grenth, then you must use Kormir and not Abaddon – the DSD holds no connection to knowledge. And Kralkatorrik holds no connection to beauty – just crystal and corrupting physically. The connection falters, because in the end you either have no dragon for Kormir and no god for Kralkatorrik, or you have no dragon for Dhuum and Lyssa (and possibly Abaddon’s predecessor), and no god for Kralkatorrik and Jormag (and possibly the DSD).
Stop trying to make something that doesn’t work fit together. Your mix and matching rules that don’t fit in order to make that hypothesis works – your not the only one either. It just doesn’t work.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Ember and Killeen’s grave are both in Fields of Ruin – the former at Summit Peak, the latter in the Secluded Grove (northwestern corner – skill point as said). Gullik is said to occasionally appear at Killeen’s grave, though I’ve never remained there long enough to really check.
Wood is sylvari bones, their skin would probably be more akin to the stem of a plant. It’d be tougher and perhaps rougher than atypical animal skin, but not that hard.
Not everything, just the things that are not yet discounted for.
We’re outright told by the developers that the Six Gods brought humanity to Tyria – this is an out-of-universe thing told to us, therefore it is not subject to the notion of “the historians were wrong” – unlike the notion that the gods created the world.
And given how power is passed on, Balthazar’s and Menzies’ shared parent doesn’t have to be a god – Balthazar could have risen to godhood the same way Kormir was. And through Grenth and the Seven Reapers, or even the Celestials, we know that mortals can be given power and made “immortal” like the gods, but not as strong. Balthazar could have done such to Menzies, but Menzies might not have been contempt with such. Alternatively, we only know that Menzies’ army rivals Balthazar’s army – so Menzies could be your run of the mill spirit who’s seeking the power of a god who just so happens to lead a powerful army.
There was a giant statue in the Crystal Desert, but its most likely not related at all.
That has nothing to do with the colossus, that was a statue built by either the Margonites, or the Elonian pilgrims that followed Turai Ossa into the crystal desert and ultimately their demise. It was purely human (Elonian) made. It was originally meant to be a small event where you could get a mysterious explosive device from out in the desert (which still exists but has no function) and blow up the weakened leg of the statue to make a bridge to cross, but now as you approach it, the statue has already fallen by what we assume to be a strong wind and you can cross it. As far as I know there’s no current references in existence to a living colossus in either game. It’s possible it’s some concept from the Utopia campaign that was never launched.
The Lonely Vigil was most likely built by Ascalonians, as it and the other Crystal Desert statues follow the same design as the statue Duke Barradin possesses in the tutorial – the same CD statues’ heads are replicated in the GW1 Ascalonian Catacombs.
I doubt the colossus was part of Utopia.
Honestly the Colossus dungeon didn’t seem very Canthan to me…what it most reminded me of were the White Mantle + the northern parts of Kryta in GW1. The Diviners and Archdiviners have clothing that seem very similar to the White Mantle Ritualists(http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/White_Mantle_Ritualist). The cliffs remind me a lot of the Northern part of Kryta, especially the Divinity’s Coast mission and Watchtower Coast explorable zone. My bet is that we’re looking at something White Mantle/Mursaat related in the cliffside fractal
That doesn’t explain the seals which look very much like Old Canthan.
And IMO, the Archdiviners look more like Am Fah. Which had an object that acted a lot like the hammer – the Chalice of Corruption, and another Afflicted-related effect also acted like the hammer.
The environment itself doesn’t seem familiar to any GW1 environment, however, we should keep in mind that we don’t know how northern Canthan looks like without being covered in shabby shacks built upon ten more shabby shacks. The best we really have would be Shing Jea and Pongmei Valley – the latter being fairly south in Cantha, and the former is too argriculturalized to really argue to be a good example comparison.
Edit: Just got into Cliffside to look at the environment. It doesn’t look like Kryta to me, but more like Pongmei Valley and Shing Jea in terms of foliage.
The stone structures… I’m not so sure.
And getting a better look at the Archdiviner’s face, that is definitely of asian features – though he’s a bit (read: way) too pale.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Actually, the Dreadspawn Maw is said to be a direct creation of the Mists, iirc. Just as the torment demons are (okay, Dreadspawn Maw isn’t explicitly said to be a creation from the Mists, but it is a demon broodmother and this is said about her: “Throughout the Mists there exist corrupted shards of existence where demons spawn. One such place is the horror, home to the Dreadspawn Maw. If we can find a way to destroy this demon, we can crush much of our enemy’s strength before it can be brought to bear against us.”). The Foundry of Failed Creations was altered by The Fury, where he then used it to turn souls into titans.
In short: The only thing the gods were credited with in regards to the Mists would be Abaddon altering the shape of a portion of the Realm of Torment that is Nightfallen Jahai, however this seems little different from Melandru terraforming, sans the fact that once the “terraforming” of Nightfallen Jahai was to be complete, it would become one with the actual Jahai.
He could defend himself, but only players who join the vigil ever meet him.
My character isn’t of the vigil, he met him in Ebonhawke – he’s near the farms.
Besides, meeting him before or not is irrelevant – I mean, my charr never met Logan before sans when he argued with Rytlock, but he went to help him at Caudecus’ Manor.
This is the end dialoque of AC. Eir intends to give Magdaer to Logan. To me, it looks like Logan will have to solve the ghost problem.
But Logan never receives it, and Eir seems to change her mind at the end.
Plus, even if Logan receives it from Eir, nothing says he won’t give it to Jennah or Wade. I mean, he’s not a descendant of the Ascalonian kings, so how can he be a rightful heir to the throne? At least, until he marries Jennah.
@Mander: That’s like arguing Prophecies areas should have been completely altered when Nightfall came out, since three years passed. I mean, by the time you kill Zhaitan in t he personal story, then all of Orr should have been changed in appearance and the risen should have been reduced in number. As you go on into new zones, the events of old zones are “in the past” – you’re effectively time traveling every time you go back to Queensdale. This is a limitation of mechanics.
@Hunter: All indications we have show that at least three gods (Dwayna, Balthazar and Melandru – and possibly Lyssa as well, though that’s a weaker argument) were gods when they arrived on the world. Given recently translated old Chinese documents from Nightfall promotions about Abaddon, he too might have come from the Mists as a god.
It’s a proven fact, outright stated by developers at multiple points, that humanity came from another world – the question is instead where they first lived on the world of Tyria.
@Narcemus: Just to be nitpicky – nothing really says the gods created their realms. Given that the Spirits of the Wild hold sway over the afterlife as well (particularly Raven and the Underworld), it seems more likely that the gods are simply inhabitants that hold domain over them (one can think of them as kings and queens of the afterlife, I suppose).
The Eye of the North holds no resemblance whatsoever with ancient jotun structures.
It holds a stronger resemblance to the Tarnished Coast ruins, whose origins are – in my opinion – most likely ancient Orrian (though it could hold other origins, but I doubt seer or mursaat as most claim – too little evidence for such). There is evidence, however, that could indicate the seers were in the Far Shiverpeaks in the distant past – found in some of the dungeons are statues which highly resemble seers, imo at least.
One such statue: http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq271/KonigDesTodes/GW/StoneStatues2.jpg
(side note: Nothing says Verata was attempting to access the Wizard’s Tower).
Well, according to a Chinese-only document that was released with Nightfall promotions (only recently translated due to a reignited interest in it over on Guru2), the war was initiated by the Margonites who acted of their own violition to dessicrate the other five gods’ shrines at the Temple of the Six along the Crystal Sea’s shore – in turn, the Forgotten waged war on the Margonites, nearly wiping them out until Abaddon stepped in to save the people who worshiped only him. Then the other five stepped in.
Of course, the authenticity of this repeated document on Chinese fansites are in question. The translation can be found here: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76125-why-abaddon-turned-evil/page__st__30#entry2100579
And I don’t think the gods’ actions could ever be labeled as a thinking Abaddon’s was a “poor judgment call” since they acted to stiffen magic only after being pleaded to by King Doric – as far as we know at least.
Chronomancers were explicitly stated way back when in 2009 (or 2010?) that they won’t ever be in GW2.
Truth be told, with the eight professions, you get just about every playstyle niche there is – anything else will clash with other professions simply for a change in aesthetics. Its more likely we’ll get new races rather than new professions.
The issue with your thoughts is that the Elder Dragons devour magic and the more magic they devour, the stronger they get.
The Mists appear to be huge concentrations of magic. E.g., the Mists would be the ultimate buffet for the Elder Dragons.
The Mists themselves are proto-matter which makes all things – this includes magic, physical entities, and souls (which in of themselves are energy sources and equally food for Elder Dragons). They randomly create things themselves, that doesn’t mean the Elder Dragons can’t just consume the Mists and ignore the creations.
And I doubt the Elder Dragons would “consume so much […] they would go into a coma” – sure, if you or I ate too much food, this could happen, but as Elder Dragons don’t consume in the traditional sense, it’s a different matter. And even then, nothing says that the Elder Dragons would continuously devour the Mists. They are said to be insatiable, but that’s not the same as continuous.
The Making of Guild Wars 2 book calls the creature Drakkar.
Anet has made a few oversights in the dialogue – such as calling Almorra a former Tribune, dates, saying charr tech was steam powered (according to Jeff Grubb in multiple interviews, it’s clockwork not steam). The three NPCs who says Jormag rose from Drakkar Lake (1 in Hoelbrak, 2 in Frostgorge) are likely similar oversights considering how adamant Anet was about how that thing was not and could not be Jormag.
It’s also possible this was intentionally done as part of the whole storytelling of “some people/sources for information are wrong” – e.g., those three NPCs believe Jormag rose from Drakkar Lake, because that’s what norn tales (iirc, all three are norn) claim.
The process of making replicas would be easier, as those aren’t as powerful. Magdaer is an Orrian artifact so it’s far more powerful and magical, so repairing it would be harder. However, after it is repaired, I suspect it will be used in further negotiations between humans and charr. Why?
Wade Samuelsson. That’s why.
To elaborate: Wade Samuelsson is the Duke of Ebonhawke, Commander of the Ebon Vanguard, and a direct descendant of Ascalonian kings. There are stories that a “true heir” of Ascalon must go to Ascalon City with Magdaer or Sohothin in hand to end the ghost threat. If Queen Jennah, Logan, and/or anyone in the delegation were to believe such, they would motion for the sword to be given to Wade and for him to go into Ascalon City – perhaps a (re)confrontation with Adelbern.
That’s just my guess though.
Priestess Rhie mentions it if you talk to her during the Speaker of the Dead quest.
Wrong – during that personal story step, she just says he’s the son of Dwayna.
The son of a mortal sculptor comes from one of the last personal story steps, Cathedral of Silence, where you chose between beseeching Grenth or looking for Romke’s ghost.
At the time, only some races were able to use magic; the mursaat, seers, jotun, forgotten, etc. were probably ruling the world before the dragons re-awoke. So Abbadon looks at the magic and thinks, “hey, why can’t everybody have that?”
The biggest flaw in this is that the mursaat were not on the world, the seers were (mostly) destroyed, and magic was sealed in the Bloodstone by the time the Six Gods arrived.
- The previously mentioned Orrian History Scrolls’ bit on Lyssa states that the two sisters lived among humans in Wren, working apart from the other gods in order to sooth humanity’s sadness and forget the past. This indicates to me that humanity – perhaps the gods, were refugees.
I want to write this stating that this isn’t meant to discard your theory, but merely to try and understand it better. Now we know that humanity was in Tyria hundreds of years before appearing in Tyria (Orr specifically). The only reason I write this is because if Lyssa was helping the people of Wren overcome their sadness this would have been many generations after they came out of the mists and into the land south of Cantha. All in all, I’m relatively still confused as to the story of the human beginnings.
I should make a correction to my old post, as since writing that I’ve realized that the Orrian History Scrolls are saying that Lyssa’s bringing the gods happiness and helping them forget the past. Or at least that’s a possible interpretation. “Them” is used, so it’s a bit ambiguous. The Orrian History Scrolls also bring up Wren after bringing up the forgetting the past. The full Lyssa excerpt, typo and all:
The two who are one, Issa and Lys, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past. For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road.
[note: names are wrong in here, it’s Lyss and Ilya]
As to the story of human beginnings… that’s all fairly unclear still, but as it stands it seems the Six Gods arrived on the world at Arah, which seems to hold forgotten ruins even now so likely did then (as the ruins in question were where Glint was “purified” of Kralkatorrik’s corruption which happened during the ED’s last rise), and brought humanity to a location south of Cantha – from there, humanity slowly moved northward as the Six Gods built Arah, and gathered magical artifacts of the ancient races (completely oblivious to the fact Zhaitan rested beneath them, it seems).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Different servers represent different worlds to every extent, even lore.
Where is this stated or even implied?
Beyond World versus World, servers hold no potential effect on lore. In lore there are other words, but nothing says that charr, asura, sylvari, etc. exist outside Tyria.
World versus World is a, in lore, simply a battle in the Mists against an unknown enemy which is called evil (two, minimum, enemies). This can mean a number of things, and doesn’t mean the existence of servers holds any weight on lore. Though the server we may face changes periodically, in lore, the enemies in WvW may always be the same (in a general sense).
Uhm, Nay, you’re mistaking a few things.
Firstly, the tengu are guards for the trading post. Not Noll. Secondly, Noll had Consortium Guards, two of them – one human one norn – not tengu guards. Thirdly, the asura that’s supposed to be building the asura gate is not Noll, but the asura in the trading post who’s been there since launch.
I don’t recall any mention that the gate goes into the Dominion of Winds either, nor that the emperor is related to it. The only mention of the emperor I’ve ever seen there was that they are led by one.
The gate is meant to further trade into the Tanto Trading Post, little more. But the asura isn’t building it – instead, she (iirc, it’s a she) is studying the nearby skritt – building the gate was her end of the deal for being allowed to stay in the trading post to conduct her experiments on the skritt.
Unless something had changed after The Lost Shores content, the above is the situation.
Earlier concept art of kodan typically puts them much taller than your standard norn – norn being 8-9 feet on average, and kodan being 10 feet on average modernly.
That concept art is likely just showing the two races in size comparison. There’s another similar one where the non-kodan (be it norn or human) is wielding a bow.
@Nay: They didn’t “capture that moment” – that’s the original concept art depiction (all such scenes have an original concept art which they then took the layers of to animate). The trailer cinematic just separated them.
I don’t think anyone said you were claiming that the gods and dragons were the same (no one made that already disproven claim in this thread). But there are issues with your relations.
If you count Grenth, then you have to count Kormir and not Abaddon. If you count Abaddon, well, you should be counting Dhuum and Abaddon’s unknown predecessor. Dhuum holds no ties to ice and thus no ties to Jormag, and the DSD holds no known ties to knowledge (the thing shared between Abaddon and Kormir, so likely with Abaddon’s unknown predecessor too), nor order and spirit (Kormir’s other lines besides knowledge/truth) and Kormir holds no ties to water (what we know the DSD holds ties to), but Lyssa didn’t always have water either, so she can’t count there.
And Kralkatorrik is hardly “Corrupted Beauty” in my opinion – he’s crystals, that’s what he corrupts turns into. Though liquid seems to superheat and super cool fast enough that boiling liquid froze with bubbles still formed within the Dragonbrand (not all liquid mind you). I’d hardly call crystals to be “corrupted beauty.”
But there are hundreds of threads on this by now, we don’t need to derail this one with a repetition of the same thing. Only Balthazar and – supposedly – Melandru fit cleanly when comparing god to dragon.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
That text is present in almost every asura lab. That asura lab in Ebonhawke isn’t very special – and obviously they’d want to keep interlopers out when they’re busy.
@Warrior Of Asgard: That blown up section was done by siege weaponry, according to the NPCs there. They had quickly done fixing on it, but with the cease fire they’re now rebuilding it to be more solid.
If I were a writer at Anet (oh, how I wish I was!), I would actually make it so that we could find Abaddon where all things that die go to; the Underworld. After all, Grenth overtook Dhuum’s mantle… yet Dhuum both remained in the Underworld, and managed to hold on to a great deal of power. So perhaps Abaddon is simply in the Underworld; relatively powerless, but nonetheless ‘there’.
The issue is two-fold:
According to the gw.dat, Abaddon’s body was destroyed and was being recreated. The Realm of Torment is also part of where all things that go die. This implies that Abaddon already died, and that his soul was imprisoned and that he was recreating a body – which we subsequently destroyed. This would mean what Kormir absorbed would be Abaddon’s soul – which fits in line with Kormir’s line as goddess of truth: “His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken.”
Kind of implies Abaddon’s soul is within Kormir. So if Abaddon returns, it’d be via taking over Kormir’s body. But Anet seems to be content with his current ending.
Second issue is that Dhuum wasn’t killed. That’s why he was imprisoned – just as Abaddon was originally imprisoned because the other gods couldn’t/wouldn’t destroy him completely (probably so that the power which almost ran rampant and destroyed everything after Abaddon’s death in Nightfall wouldn’t go rampant with no one around to absorb the power – e.g., no Kormir-like figure). In other words, Dhuum is in the same position Abaddon was before Nightfall, so Dhuum being present in the Underworld doesn’t mean in any way shape or form that Abaddon may be there.
Aaaand: What if there really are 6 ED and 6 human gods? What if each ED is only compatible with the magic of one of the 6 gods?
Zhaitan – Abaddon (Abaddon had something similar to undead servants)
Primordeus – Balthasar (Fire)
Jormag – Grenth (Ice)
Deep Sea Dragon – Lyssa (Aparently she’s the goddess of water now. It said so in human character creation)
Krakaltorrik – Dwayna (he was able to scorch the ground by merely flying over it. So maybe his corruption spreads through air, which Dwayna patrons over).
Nr 6 – Melandru (plant based god for a plant based ED).
You really had to go and do this.
Firstly, if this were so, then it’d be in relation to the original six gods – e.g., Abaddon was the god of water before Lyssa, so he’d be the DSD. And Dhuum was god of death (but not ice) before Grenth.
So there’s no god of ice (no Grenth), and no crystals (Kralkatorrik twisted with his breath which all Elder Dragons can do – it’s not related to simply flying over it – his corruption spreads physically, whereas Jormag’s mentally and Zhaitan is magically/spiritually (supposedly)).
But there’s no god fitting for Jormag or Kralkatorrik – and no dragon for Dwayna or Lyssa. That hypothesis fails. Plus, the Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods’ presence on Tyria.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Issue with the seers attacking the mursaat (or vice versa) after the Elder Dragons went to sleep is that we’re told that the mursaat returned “only recently as the Unseen Ones” after they fled the Elder Dragons. Meaning they weren’t on Tyria for nearly 10,000 years.
Therefore, the war – regardless of who started it – had to occur while the Elder Dragons were awake, given what the Durmand Priory knows.
Same goes for the jotun’s fall – since the seers gathered all uncorrupted magic, and the jotun’s magic is specifically mentioned to be included , into the original Bloodstone and the jotun’s society fall is said to be related to their magic disappearing (explicitly by the Six Gods, and partially otherwise), it would imply their fall occurred during the Elder Dragons’ last rise as well (or whenever the Bloodstone was made).
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