They willingly chose to forego perfectly good soldiers because of this dumb decision.
Same can be said regarding slavery and almost every single negative stereotyping and forms of hate crimes (racism, sexism, etc.).
You lessen society over a dumb as hell decision.
No one ever said these things make sense – because they don’t.
You’re not listening.
Personal storyline and zone events happen simultaneously. Whether or not you participate in them (be it alternative storylines or missed events), they all happen at the same time based on level.
And you’re still thinking that my analogy of time travel was literal? It was a metaphor – and analogy. Tequatl’s death predates Zhaitan’s death, regardless of when you do either.
And if you want to get technical, Zhaitan’s death is part of the dungeon storyline, not personal storyline. There’s three storylines in GW1 – personal, world, and dungeon – but all three happen simultaneously.
During the Ash Legion storyline, we’re told more about it – if you talk to NPCs a bit.
Bathea did more than just say no – she ran an underground (female primarily or solely, I think) movement against the Shaman caste. I’m guessing this movement is the originator of the secret training Kalla led.
That’s why they banned females – because of the movement that Bathea led, not just her own personal disagreement.
(and it kinda seems to me the Flame Legion were always a bit anti-female tbh, though this is just my perception)
I don’t see how his dialogue relates to tengu being future playable race?
Anyways, there used to be quaggans in the Heart of the Mists, and I can never see them becoming playable.
But the Making of GW2 book did state that tengu were originally to be a playable race but were dropped from such during development – that NPC, should the Heart of the Mists really intentionally follow the “playable races only” motif (which I doubt is intentional), it may be a remnant of such.
Later on you receive a mission to re-take “Claw Island” and on the very same path way you take that was the same area where Tybalt died at. There was no gaping hole in the ground, no burn marks, no broken ground tiles. Nothing. Its like the very same area with no change at all, when during the sacrifice, Tybalt hinted he was going to make the greatest bomb explosion ever. Yet… there is no evidence of this.
Well he probably didn’t get the chance for such. There’s also the fact that the instance is shared with those who did Vigil and Priory storylines, and neither Forgal nor Sieran were bomb makers, so for them it wouldn’t make sense.
However Tybalt’s body is no where to be found?
Not even his sniper gun, that was shown during the pirate story line when saving “Demmi Beetlestone”, was found?
Its likely that Tybalt was made into a risen (Zhaitan knew how to get into the Inner Sanctum of the Chantry of Secrets after all). Why a Risen Tybalt or Risen Forgal doesn’t show up at any time is the question – Anet probably wanted to avoid past storyplots as much as possible. Plus the Priory storyline had a sylvari, so it had to be during a Vigil or Whispers specific story step that they returned, since sylvari can’t be corrupted by dragons.
This isn’t a plot hole nor a flaw, but rather just unexplained aspect of the story.
- You lose all contact with your warband.
- You lose all contact with “Korukhan the Blacksmith” the cool looking charr that explained his order, even to the point he is never really shown again.
- The “mouth of Zhaitan” was never really explained what or who they were, since it was explained in the story that the “Eye of Zhaitan” was the former Kings or Queens of Orr.
Well, Korukhan’s job was unrelated to yours – why would he meet up with you again when he’s the Whispers representative in the Black Citadel? Unless you return to the Black Citadel on a mission, there’s no reason to. Same with other representatives.
For warband, I found that odd too. But again, this isn’t a plot hole or a flaw. Just a missed opportunity.
And they never explained a lot of the dragon minions’ origins. I think we’re just meant to try to figure it out ourselves – I mean, what fun is it if we’re told everything? Wouldn’t it be more fun to try to figure out what those Zhaitan-made dragons (Tequatl, Blightghast, etc.) were before being corrupted?
So again: these aren’t plot holes or flaws. They’re just missed opportunities and mysteries.
The way I see it, Tybalt is presumed to be dead because surviving Claw Island is a slim chance however, Tybalt is crafty. I would love to see two scenarios played out to explain his fate; 1) He lived by some engineer magic and is reunited with the player in Orr. 2) He died and is a champion that must be dispatched in Orr (if that’s the case I’d love to see him as an added “bonus” in Arah.
Tybalt never appears and engineers don’t use magic (though they may use magic-imbued objects, but they don’t use magic themselves – that’s the whole point behind them).
As far as I remember, Tybalt probably died when he defended player´s retreat from Claw island due to the mission Source of Orr (I think) where you kill the Eye of Zhaitan and during that fight the eye says to you (not precisly this but you got the point): “You lost someone to Zhaitan” … and that the “Tybalt, he is with Zhaitan now” so probably somewhere is a zombified Tybalt … assuming that the Eye´s words were true, of course.
The risen love this thing called “psychological warfare” and they use it a lot – the Eye of Zhaitan even claims Sieran, a sylvari (and note that sylvari cannot be corrupted by Elder Dragons – they just die), is “waiting under Zhaitan’s wing.”
Lion’s Arch is in Kryta the region, but not in Kryta the kingdom. One can probably consider the western edge of the kingdom to be just past Ascalon Settlement, going up north. It used to extend much further – down into Sparkfly Fen even – but not since Lion’s Arch became independent (which as Curuniel said, is very much officially stated).
As to the idea of the Lionguard “not being the same” – I wouldn’t really say so. Their functions may have change, but they seem to me to be no different from their old selves than the Order of Whispers or the Zaishen Order are to their own (despite the very very very little we get from the modern Zaishen).
I think the issue is that you’re starting to confuse means of story_telling_ with means of story experiencing. And you also seem to be thinking of GW2 as any other MMO. Most MMOs typically have a very sandbox layout, with only a beginning and an end – everything else is just “the middle” (and even then, sometimes they don’t have that end or a beginning) – that is to say, both the storytelling and the story experiencing is non-linear, a sandbox. GW2 is different – it’s a mix of linear storytelling and both linear and sandbox story experience.
The experience, outside the personal story, is very much sandbox in GW2 – with the personal story being linear. But the story itself – the lore itself, the order of events – is very much linear.
And in this sense, while you may experience killing Zhaitan before Tequatl, Tequatl dies before Zhaitan.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Lion’s Arch is 100% independent from the throne. In Edge of Destiny (1019 AE by timeline standards), Queen Jennah was negotiating with the Captain’s Council about an alliance in fighting the centaurs and risen – the Seraph would aid in fighting Risen, the Lionguard would aid in fighting centaurs. If they fell under the throne, then no such negotiation for the Lionguard’s aid would be needed – just an order. And to boot, despite the fact that this negotiation concluded with agreement of aid (iirc that is), in GW2 we can see that the Lionguard are standing neutral in the war between Kryta and the centaurs, in order to protect traders from centaur raids (for what little good it does them).
Lion’s Arch after its destruction and re-establishment by pirates has become its own city-state, fully independent of all others government-wise. And the Lionguard, for some unexplained reason, kept ties to the city rather than the kingdom of Kryta (most likely, as said, due to the Lionguard’s duties being undermined first by the White Mantle in 1070-1072 AE, then by the Seraph in 1079 AE – they ended up becoming just a city police roughly 150 years before Lion’s Arch’s flood, so when Kryta abandoned the city, the Lionguard didn’t – that’s my guess).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I don’t think you’re getting what I meant. I was just using that as a metaphore.
It’s literally 100% mechanics and not actual lore than dragon champions are still attacking Sparkfly Fen after Zhaitan’s death. Like Neilos said, its like going back to a previous chapter in a book – the difference is that you’re not going back with pages, but in areas and plot placement.
What I meant by the notion of “time travel” was that killing Zhaitan takes place after the Tequatl fight – always. No matter what. Even if you your own character kills Zhaitan first, or you kill Tequatl and then Zhaitan and then 5 more Tequatls. The Tequatl fight(s) happened first.
Same thing with going to Prophecies from Nightfall in GW1 – all things you do in Prophecies content happened 3 years before the events of Nightfall, even if you go through Nightfall first. No matter what. Or to give an example within a single GW1 campaign – Rurik’s death in the Shiverpeaks happened before his reanimation, no matter what, even if you do Hell’s Precipice before doing The Frost Gate.
Faolain is still alive, as is Caudecus and the bandit threat, Sons of Svanir hardly took damage, and the Ascalonian Ghosts are still a fairly large threat – only the retrieval of Magdaer is really significant there, and that’ll only end the ghosts if the legend is true.
Only the Flame Legion and Inquest (and the later far less so) really took a beating from the dungeons’ events.
So how come you can kill Zhaitan and still regularly face off against his liutenants?
Because the events of lower level areas happen before the events of higher level areas.
That’s why there’s no Pact fighting Tequatl or The Shatterer – because it didn’t exist yet in those levels, even if you did the storyline for them. Though they’re told through different means, the open world’s story and the personal storyline go hand-in-hand. They occur simultaneously based on the level of the content. When you go to lower level content, you are effectively traveling back in time, though this is purely mechanical and thus not a contradiction in story – just like how Prophecies takes place 3 years before Nightfall, and 6 before Eye of the North, but you can go to and fro with no issue, even play the content that happens later on in the timeline before the earlier timeline-wise content.
Not only because of the continuity problems it creates in the world, but also because it shatters the ominous dread, the often hinted at apocalyptic feel you can witness throughout the world. The hopeless but valiant struggle. It actually creates a nice buildup.
There’s no continuity problems in the world – why? Because content in the open world based after Zhaitan’s death, of which there’s only three at the moment, does not include things that would require Zhaitan living – e.g., Southsun Cove, Halloween stuff, and Wintersday stuff. These things take place after Zhaitan’s death just as Arah explorable does, and there’s no risen to be found or heard of.
As to the “impending doom” – you kind of have to get rid of it eventually otherwise it just gets boring or moral breaking. Plus there’s a very important line from a tengu: that the Elder Dragons have not yet begun to make their move. In other words, “worse is yet to come” – though this is before Claw Island, it’s pretty easy to imagine that wasn’t yet the worse to come concept.
Besides, Zhaitan was easy to starve – nothing says that Jormag and the others will be so easy to starve out and wade into their territory. After all, Zhaitan could only corrupt the dead – Jormag and Kralkatorrik can easily corrupt the living. So they pose a different kind of threat altogether.
Norn make perfect mesmers – most raven shamans are, in fact, mesmers. And elementalist makes sense for them since they live in harsh elements – kind of feels like commanding the elements would be hand-in-hand for learning how to survive. Guardians are warriors with magic and faith, so that makes sense for me with norn too. Only engineers are really questionable with norn, tbh.
And your saying guardian doesn’t fit asura doesn’t make sense – you say they’re a magical race, so a magical profession doesn’t make sense? TBH, I only don’t see warriors as making sense for asura, but there were plenty of such in GW1 among the NPCs (it was the most common asuran profession in fact!).
Dhuum didn’t refuse necromancy – he just refused undead. He hunted down anyone who “cheated death.”
And nothing says Grenth taught humans how to use necromancy, resurrect the dead, or make undead.
I found the building (not really a tavern though the model is used for one or two of them) isn’t part of the Whispers storyline – or any storyline I know of, but I haven’t done them all. If its related to a personal storyline, then I’m guessing it’s for humans during one of the 20-30 splits.
“tried” is the proper term. Past tense. They no longer worship destroyers, they worship Baelfire – though what they’ll do for a god now that Baelfire’s dead and the Pact’s actively countering the Flame Legion’s resurrection ability is questionable. Then again, they’re pretty much in civil war and it seems like they’ll kill themselves off now.
I cannot see the Elder Dragons making the two staves – the size is just rofl to consider. Nor can I see why the ELder Dragons, who feast on magic and magical artifacts, would make magical artifacts.
I personally suspect the Orrians made them – just as they made Magdaer and Sohothin and gave them to Ascalonian royalty.
No letter as far as I know.
Huh, I always thought that the destroyers were just rock creature things based off of real animals (e.g. I don’t think theres a troll as large as Megadestroyer).
Do we know what the weapon is?
You get the letter at one of the Claw Island arc missions, I think. It was before Forging the Pact, at least.
You are right about destroyers, those made by Primordus are indeed just creatures made of rock and lava that mimic real creatures. I was merely pointing out why someone may think there’s a relation between Flame Legion and destroyers – other than the fact that in GW1, they worshipped destroyers for a time after the titans were killed. Of course, it’s always possible that the charr are drawing from Primordus (intentionally or not), and thus are breaking Primordus’ standard means of corruption – issue is, the Flame Legions’ mentality is not very dragon minion like. Too much focus on themselves ruling, rather than Primordus’ only seen motivating: killing all lifeforms. (and note: just because Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings doesn’t mean he can’t)
And no, its never stated, but I suspect its Baelfire’s little transformation – or alternatively, it could be the Eternal Flame. I doubt its the Searing Effigy, considering that seems to be something created after Baelfire’s death, though it could be.
Actually, its heavily implied that all bandits are indeed under the influence of the White Mantle.
Those in Queensdale, Harathi Hinterlands, and Brisban Wildlands (as well as lvl 1-10 human personal storyline, including the street gang storyline) all use the same symbol as identification. Harathi Hinterlands, Caudecus Mansion, and Kessex Hills bandits are all in an alliance with the centaurs. At least one camp in Kessex Hills, allied with the centaurs, is outright stated to be led by White Mantle. Another camp in Kessex Hills, also allied with the centaurs, is outright stated to be working for Caudecus.
And if you pay attention, the motivation for bandits isn’t money.
Its anarchism.
Bandits in Harathi Hinterlands, street rat storyline, and Brisban Wildlands all mention the same thing: Queen Jennah is a tyrant! The White Mantle in the orphan storyline says the same.
You gotta pay close attention about them bandits. They’re all clearly united, and their leaders are the White Mantle – though the grunts, modest citizens who fell on hard times and blame the queen, don’t know this and some don’t like attacking people (so clearly those folks don’t know about the alliance with the centaurs).
And I think that bringing down Queen Jennah to retake control of the nation (either directly or via Caudecus) is just as bad as others, especially when they’re in an alliance with centaurs (who hate humans and norn), Inquest (who are interested in mursaat and Elder Dragon magic – guess who leads the White Mantle?), and Nightmare Court (who intend to effectively corrupt an entire race into being sadistic masochistic kittens)… I fear the White Mantle are the true biggest threats. They’re the masterminds, the puppet masters, behind half of the other racial threats.
If you consider the Inquest to be the biggest threat because they’re using dragon magic and have bases all over Tyria, what about the White Mantle who are in an alliance with the Inquest, give them subjects to experiment on, and have things the Inquest wants (mursaat artifacts, I’m sure the White Mantle kept a few)? The White Mantle can easily bargain their way into having the Inquest do their dirty work.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
So you are saying that glaring contradictions arising from having a storyline where a major world nemesis is killed and yet also requiring that same nemesis to be there for a multitude of players is no real issue?
That’s not a contradiction.
A contradiction is when one thing says one thing, and a second thing says something else about the same subject.
Nothing says Zhaitan was killed by person A, and then another thing says Zhaitan was killed by person B. It’s always “Zhaitan was killed by the Pact, the attack was led by the Commander.” Who is the commander? Its never said. Because there’s one commander, but thousands of players. We’re all the commander, and we’re all not. You’ll never see a name spoken in any western RPG (single player or multiplayer) because we name our own characters, you’ll only see text. Thing is, it’ll always be the same for you and when its spoken or brought up in a general sense, it’ll be that “nameless hero” or just the title of said hero who did things.
This isn’t a contradiction, since its not contradicting anything previously stated. Its just its keeping things generic.
Similarly, in the story, Zhaitan isn’t killed a million times by a million players, he’s killed once and only once.
So stop saying its a contradiction when its not. And this aspect of the story is no different than any other RPG where you name your own character.
Ascalonian Catacombs is a good example:
You have one main type of enemy during Story, and during Exploration you have another type of enemy moving in and taking advantage of you killing the strong guys of the first enemy type.
As does a lot of dungeons. For some reason Arah doesn’t, despite it making the most sense for Arah to be doing so!
Actually, no Arah doesn’t make the most sense. Why? Because the Risen don’t just drop dead. So there are still hundreds if not thousands of Risen in Arah – and there is an enemy that comes in taking advantage of the old enemies’ death – the Inquest, during mursaat storyline.
Ever since GW1, as WoA said, the Lionguard haven’t been tied to Kryta the nation, but Lion’s Arch the city – and that might have been the case even long before GW1. So they’re not traitors to the nation of Kryta.
If you’re a charr, then one of the letters you get from Rytlock explains that the Flame Legion has a weapon the Pact is interested in using to fight the Elder Dragons. Not sure if you get such a notice as other races – I know you don’t as sylvari, but you may as human.
@Drop Bear: What Killul meant by similar to destroyers would be the Flame Legions’ shamans – who have fiery bodies, caused by self-inflicted rituals – not their use of fire magic. But that is, as far as we know, unrelated to the destroyers.
Entropy? If the Risen have been waiting in Orr all a long (which is why they are made out of coral and stuff because Orr was under water for a loooong time) we might have to wait forever for them to fall apart.
I think the ‘Entropy’ he’s talking about is the eventual cleansing of the area by the pact war machine turning the undead to pulp.
Indeed. By entropy I mean the eventual death and lack of creation of new risen. They might be able to make more of themselves, but with their source (Zhaitan) gone, they have a limited supply of corrupted magic – with Trahearne actively reducing said corrupted magic, and the Pact slowly killing off risen, its only a matter of time before the risen are gone for good.
But they won’t just up and disappear themselves, nor can – I presume – they spread anymore, at least at a threatening rate, seeing how champions can only make undead by drawing from their dragons’ power (which, again, is no longer being made thus a finite supply).
So will orr always stay infested with risen? How will they come up with a explanation that say, in a years time when players have been killing risen in orr, there are still as many risen in there that they started with?
Why do Flame Legion in Plains of Ashford praise Baelfire despite his death? Or in GW1, why were there still mursaat in the Shiverpeak Mountains after they were wiped out?
When you go to lower level areas (or in this case, longer lasting level 80 areas), you’re effectively going back in time – the events of lvl 1-15 areas take place before those of lvl 15-25 areas, which in turn take place before higher level areas and so on and so forth.
Given that there will always be new players, they can’t just up and remove all risen from Orr.
The Scepter of Orr and Staff of the Mists are never said to come from the Six Gods – the only thing on their origin known is that they were gifted to the human kingdoms (never said by whom), and when said human kings became corrupt the gods struck them down and buried the staves with the kings.
O rly? My understanding from playing the story is the opposite: that Zhaitan is the mind behind the actions of these mindless Risen, except the ones he grants a limited form of autonomy, i.e his Eyes and Mouths.
Precisely. Except for his still-living champions – like the High Priests/Priestesses and possibly the Giganticus Lupicus, the risen are now just mindless drones, no longer intent on invasion.
But they don’t just drop dead. They still “live” – if you watched the cinematic in the personal story instance after doing the Arah dungeon, Trahearne says there are still risen, but they’re no longer being made at the same rate and will be hunted down to the last.
There are four tiers to autonomy we can see in the risen as laid out by the story:
- The Eyes/Mouths/Toenails of Zhatian have moderate autonomy and can think forthemselves a the level of a person but are still bound to Zhaitan’s will.
- The combatant risen, those with the tools necessary to combat effectively, have almost no autonomy except that which allows them to fight in Zhaitan’s name against Zhaitan’s enemies without his conscious command, and organize allies into the fray. Risen despoiler/corruptor/giants etc.
- The non-combat humanoid risen, villagers and the like, still fight for Zhaitan but aren’t bent toward his goals typically, they have what might be considered less than zero autonomy and are basically meat puppets. When not actively craving human flesh their minds kind of go into autopilot, going through familiar motions that have been hardwired throughout their previous lives.
- Wild risen, clams/chickens/grubs and the like, which are essentially machines and perform the same repetitive tasks until they wear out.
I kind of disagree with this explanation. In a general sense, I’d say there’s 3 forms of corruption – the lowest being your run of the mill mindless zerging dragon minion (your third and fourth) and are simply the corrupted bodies; the middle where the souls are entrapped but they’re not a very powerful or important minion (like the various princes and other named figures with personalities fought in the personal story); and the most advanced being dragon champions – Eyes/Mouths of Zhaitan, Tequatl and Blightghast etc. which lead the armies.
The second tier are often called lieutenants, and the highest are called champions.
Basically killing Zhaitan means there will be no new Risen and the ones left lose their focus but they’re still around and need to be wiped out gradually.
Personally I think it’s more realistic that way than if they all suddenly fell-down. It also fits with the GW lore about necromancy – in the first game if you killed a Necro their minions stayed but they went ‘wild’ and would attack anyone instead of just their masters enemies.
Not just about necromancy, but this is how all dragon minions fought – when you kill a dragon champion, the nearby minions lose their mind and become a mindless zerg.
Of course, there is still a chance at new risen being made via the champions, and they themselves still have their own sapience, but with the origin (Zhaitan) being gone, its just waiting for entropy to kick in.
I cannot see the Elder Dragons wanting to remove mankind but not the other races – as Narcemus said the last time they were awake they fought the mursaat, jotun, seer, dwarves, and forgotten. With the possible exception of the forgotten, those races predate the Six Gods’ presence on Tyria. And according to jotun lore, the Elder Dragons are a cycle of destruction – repeatedly killing off (almost) all life on the world.
As for what killed off the Giganticus Lupicus – the Durmand Priory repeatedly say that they went extinct during the last Elder Dragon rise.
There’s also a very distinct difference between Elder Dragon and the gods. Elder Dragons 1) don’t explode when they die (aka their power can be destroyed, but this is not the case for gods, as proven with Abaddon), and 2) while the Six Gods have realms – that is, homes – in the Mists, the Elder Dragons are limited to Tyria except through utilizing portals to the Mists made by others (such as the portals made by norn havrouns, which they get such powers from the Spirits of the Wild). Meaning that the Spirits of the Wild, though killable and edible by the Elder Dragons, are far more divine than the Elder Dragons. So the ED aren’t likely to be some gods, Tyrian-centric or otherwise.
My personal suspicion on what the Elder Dragons are given how unique they are – even to other dragons – would be that they’re some form of magically made eldritch abomination. Possibly naturally formed coalesce of magic gone sentient (said sentience being gained by corrupting living beings, meaning Primordus is the least sentient of all Elder Dragons). Though there’s little to really support this, just that magical hotspots are prone to make elementals out of the land, and the Elder Dragons both radiate and consume magic.
I mean the Charr were made into a race when nothing about their physique matched the current races (which are pretty close to just larger and smaller versions of a human model.
There’s three main differences between the models of charr and models of centaurs.
Charr are bipedal with 2 arms; centaurs have 4 legs – so you can’t even keep the basic designs of armors between the centaurs and other races, unlike with charr.
How do centaurs swim?
Charr were a race from the get go (or at least considered one), whereas centaurs would be added on as one.
And lore-wise, I don’t think Elonian vs Tyrian centaurs would matter – during the Gendarran Fields meta, there’s references to Zhed, who was very much from Elona. While there’s no Velderunner or Losaru in GW2 mentioned, it seems to me that they’re known to Tyrian centaurs – and if so, it’d be vice versa more than likely, and the Elonian centaurs who also have historical issues with humans (being enslaved and all) would likely be as hostile if they knew the Tyrian centaurs’ plight. Joko’s presence does throw a wrench into things, but as shown during the lvl 28 sylvari Whispers storyline step, centaurs in Tyria hate undead too – they just hate humans more and are less effected by undead (and they consider sylvari to be earth spirits).
I am now picturing an undead ranger with a dog pet…
That ranger must have to dig up his bones a lot.
All three paths in explorable deals with bandits – one deals with their alliance with centaurs, one deals with their alliance with Inquest (though only implied), and one deals with their plots against Divinity’s Reach. The last one has the bandits using the “Separatist Camp” from the story mode (where the charr was captive), while the other two deal with a series of caves with bandit bases in them that lead to Lake Doric.
There’s no hide nor hair of the Separatists in explorable.
They vary in how obvious or secret they are. I don’t have a whole list, but for example, there’s a point of interest called ‘Hidden Shelter’ in the Grove, in the same area as the Vigil and Priory areas, which is full of Whispers agents. On the other hand the only site I know of in Divinity’s Reach in the tavern ‘The Maiden’s Whisper’, which seems to have a Whisper agents operating out of its basement, but that’s just heavily implied – it’s nothing official.
I’m not sure for Hoelbrak, the Citadel or Rata Sum.
Willow is a Whispers agent – when you talk to her, her lines are the same as Whispers agents.
Black Citadel has a base on the roof of the Serrated Tavern.
Haven’t seen one (though I have seen Whisper agents) in Hoelbrak and Rata Sum though.
There’s also a Whispers base in one of the havens (I think it was Snowdrift Haven) in Snowden Drifts. There’s an entire event chain revolving around them, just as there is around the base in Lornar’s Pass. Though unlike the Lornar’s Pass one, anyone can enter the Snowden Drift base.
Undead might be playable because they are a separate race from the Risen. Palawa Joko is the lord of the undead, while the Risen are from the dragons.
Issue is that undead aren’t really a race.
They’re just various races reanimated.
2. Forgotten: I at least hope we can see what happened to them between games; it’d be really cool to do that through a separate campaign. Edit: I could see a Naga/Margonite thing here, but I don’t see how either would much relate to Tyria.
3. Seer: Rematch between the Blade and the Mantle, anyone? That’s probably taking it a bit too far, but I like to be optimistic.
Not sure what “relate to Tyria” has to do with it, but seers are (almost?) extinct, and the forgotten seem to be gone (from world Tyria) too given how none helped Glint when Kralkatorrik awoke.
In that quote, there’s no question you were answering, since Nevarato very clearly and obviously knew she had a baby.
And I’m not being hostile – I’m simply stating that Glint’s child is irrelevant to the Flameseeker Prophecies – which the shield of the same name would be solely depicting. Which I said in response to Nevarato as well.
Or she could feign obliviousness towards it, not make up a lie by claiming that Caudecus was a target, and still put him under protection of the throne because his mansion was attacked and damaged.
His stumbling on his own words to me read that he knew Jennah’s plot – to keep a close eye on him so he couldn’t work with bandits, and possibly investigate his mansion (which she had done afterwards, Shining Blade being there and all). It didn’t seem like it was a back-fired plan, just that Jennah was doing something which getting out of – at least immediately – would harm his public image. The stumbling, to me, was him hesitating on trying to figure out how to get out of being put under what was obviously house arrest without making him look suspicious – like there was something in his mansion -coughbandithideoutssndsecretpassagestoHarathiHinterlandscough- he didn’t want to be found.
If the claim that Caudecus was a target was indeed a lie, then the only real purpose it held was keeping Logan from strangling the old man then and there – which she could have done by just shouting “sit!” Inuyasha style since Logan’s so whipped by her (I suspect he enjoys her using Domination Magic -coughs-).
I really am not seeing how you’re not seeing that you yourself are pointing out the answer to your question.
Fighting isn’t allowed in Hoelbrak. Not just mechanically, but in lore too – if they fight, they get tossed out. They’re not fighting. They’re not killing. The only time the Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak actually kill is during Twilight of the Wolf and that’s because we killed an icebrood (which, unlike the relation between icebrood and Sons of Svanir everywhere else, attacked the SoS) – in other words, we instigated the fight with those Sons of Svanir, and they’re not even close to on par to other Sons of Svanir who have icebrood wolves as cooperative pets even just outside Hoelbrak.
All the “issues” you bring up for why it doesn’t make sense that the SoS are allowed in Hoelbrak is exactly why they are – they’re not the issues, they’re the solutions. Yes, they can kill – but so can everyone else, and everyone be they Sons of Svanir or not are only allowed until they cause such trouble. Yes, they can become a threat in the future, but that’s in the future and not the present – in the future, if they become a threat, then they’ll be dealt with.
That’s how the norn think on it. They don’t condemn one member of the Sons of Svanir who’s done nothing wrong himself except believe that Jormag’s the strongest Spirit of the Wild (which in itself is no more wrong than a norn believing in the Six Gods – its the practices which such belief in Jormag usually promotes that is wrong, and these Sons of Svanir are not seen doing such) just because other Sons of Svanir have done wrong things.
What they might do is irrelevant, what they say they’ll do is irrelevant. What’s relevant is what they – the very individual – does.
I beg your pardon? Racism, seriously? I’m trying to have a friendly conversation here.
Anyway, I would not condemn the SoS for having a different religion, ideology or lifestyle. I would condemn them for supporting jormag, the dragon that seeks to destroy the Norn and other races.
I remember Eir tried to kill the Dragonspawn in the novel “Destiny’s Edge” but failed, in response the Dragonspawn ravaged Hoelbrak with a blizzard. She was cast out of Hoelbrak by Knut Whitebear for it. She tried to help and accomplished more than most who tried, and got banned.
The Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak side with (Note that I said “side with”, not actively participate “yet”) the enemy that seeks to destroy all norn, butchers their children and burns down their homes. And Knut is all like “make yourself at home!”
It’s not open minded, it’s short sighted and illogical.
Note: I admit, I am judging from a human perspective and thus my opinion in this matter is somewhat biased. But that’s why I want to discuss the matter, to get a better insight. So please let’s try to keep real world problems and racism out of this.
You are, once again, pointing out exactly why they’re let into Hoelbrak. And why Eir was kicked out.
Eir caused problems for Hoelbrak. Those Sons of Svanir haven’t. “Yet” is irrelevant – “has” is.
And… I’m sorry, but which Sons of Svanir “butchers their children and burns down their homes” exactly? I know there’s some Sons of Svanir – note: some – that steal homesteads, and there are some that raid passages, and some which hunt animals others would consider sacred. But I have yet to see any mention of butchered children or burning homes. They’re raiders, but not savages. The worst Sons of Svanir are seen in Honor of the Waves, and they’re led explicitly by icebrood – and again, the Sons of Svanir, though sharing beliefs, are just as united as any other large group of norn: very loosely.
And for clarification: my relating to racism is that what you’re doing is profiling (which is what racism is, effectively) by judging someone you don’t know because of their affiliations, appearances, or beliefs. For example, just because a white man believes in white supremacy doesn’t make him as bad as the Nazi of WWII.
Following Jormag because he represents strength to the norn isn’t what makes Sons of Svanir evil. Its the fact they spread his corruption and actively hunt weaklings (effectively bully to death others). Those in Hoelbrak haven’t done this. They don’t go attacking others. So to the norn, another who reveres a being they view to be strong and look up to doesn’t condemn them – Elder Dragon or otherwise.
Try talking to these SoS. They are openly hostile and threaten to kill you if you don’t leave. The only reason they would be there is because it is a safe place they can rest, recover and recruit or kidnap other norn.
Precisely, it’s all threats.
There’s no physical violence. They don’t kidnap, they don’t start brawls, and they don’t actually kill if you linger. They just threaten. They have bark, but no bite. Those in Hoelbrak at least.
Except for when you’re allowed to kill them, during a certain personal storyline step.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
It seemed to me that they were targeting him due to him hosting the party celebrating the treaty.
Of course, it could go either way. But the only relation there is at all of the Separatists being tied to Caudecus is a possible interpretation of the dungeon’s events.
Jennah really has no reason to feign obliviousness, nor is that notion needed to put Caudecus under effective house arrest.
Still is irrelevant to the Flameseeker Prophecies.
And nothing says that she laid the eggs and Glint’s Baby hatched from those eggs, or at least in the traditional sense. What with Glint being made out of crystals according to GW2 scholars.
Uh, Mystic… you need to redo that storyline. That Searing Cauldron was brought to Orr by the charr during their invasion and was taken by the risen (cuz they take magical artifacts for feeding Zhaitan). They didn’t originate in Orr (if they did, think: how did the charr get them? >.>) – I also heard that there’s one that can be found in the Straits of Devastation, underwater (again, one brought by the charr during the Charr Invasion prior to the Cataclysm).
Anyways – the facts as we have them are thus:
@jinx: Uh, no Searing crystals are not found near where Kralkatorrik went to sleep – and they were made 250 years ago so where they’d be found is irrelevant to the matter.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
You should go through the Tarnished Coast in GW1. The ruins the asura settled in – remnants of Utopia – had mesoamerican aesthetics to it.
Except they don’t have the same enemies.
Divinity’s Reaches enemies are bandits and centaurs. The Lionguard made a treaty with the centaurs to protect trade routes.
They judge an individual by that individual’s own action.
But their ‘actions’ are just as hostile. Not the ones in Hoelbrak, but the SoS in general, and the norn tolerate them as such (not just the individuals in Hoelbrak).
Lets say you hate Republicans in America – if I say I’m a Republican, would you hate and condemn me for what the Republican politicians do?
If America was at war with another nation and the Republicans would openly colaborate with them, to the point of raiding/sabotaging american facilities, then yes. Because it makes them traitors and enemies of the state. (which is exactly the case with the SoS and Jormag).
You yourself explain why the SoS in Hoelbrak are tolerated – because the SoS in Hoelbrak aren’t hostile – like thinking all whites are evil because of the KKK, or that all Germans are because of the Nazi. Same exact situation with the Sons of Svanir – so they have an odd faith, but if they don’t go killing and corrupting, they’re not to blame for having a weird faith.
And what if its just the politicians or a certain group of Republicans, but not those who just watch FOX News who are “enemies of the state” – would you still blame every single individual Republican? It’s the same exact thing as claiming all Muslims are terrorists due to the extremist groups that perform terrorism. Your profiling, and its no different than racism.
Apparently norn have a more open mind than you.
Or c) There’s no need for the outside, ever, except what you can see from the inside, given that’s an instance and if we ever go to that area in the future via expansion, it’ll be separate from the instance (and we likely won’t be getting inside).
Except that the gods did not leave with the arrival of the Elder Dragons. Or the Elder Dragons’ awakening, either.
The Gods left in Year 0. The Elder Dragons current awakening began in 1079 AE. The Six left because of Abaddon’s actions, and in Nightfall they just distanced themselves more. But in all, the Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods’ presence on Tyria, and the Six Gods (or at least three of them) are heavily implied if not outright stated to have been gods before coming to the world of Tyria. From what I’ve heard – and unfortunately I haven’t fully explored the place yet to know first hand – the Arah explorable dungeon tells us that the Six Gods didn’t even know Zhaitan was beneath Orr.
As for Elder Dragon motivations, personality and so forth… They do, in my opinion, hold personalities and there is an entire thread on the notion, which I have presented my thoughts on, somewhere in this forum. And the Elder Dragons, we are told, are hostile to each other. As for motivation, I’d say they do, and that its tied into their personality, though this is more questionable. (to summarize the said thread, I believe that each Elder Dragon has a personality and goal that is shifted towards a single concept of a particular desire – Zhaitan seems, through his minions’ speech, to seek immortality; Jormag offers power and finds those with power to be worthy of his attention; Kralkatorrik and his minions seem to seek obtaining things (whether you consider it greed or seeking perfection is argumentable, imo either can be the case based on how Edge of Destiny describes it); Primordus, though its hard to guess, seems to seek genocide of living things (and would explain why he never corrupts living creatures but instead mimics them in his minions); the deep sea dragon and mordremoth are even harder, but of the little we know I’d guess speculatively that the DSD is seeking to drown the world, while Mordremoth is seeking to, as Thalador put it, enforce natural selection by poisoning the world causing those who cannot handle pain to die out.)
I wouldn’t be surprised that the Elder Dragons don’t speak, though they do show to think (whether or not they have motivation and personality, they do have thoughts – or at least Kralkatorrik and seemingly Zhaitan do, with an implication that Jormag does too). Can a dragon’s mouth and throat duplicate the required tones and pronunciations for the races’ speech? I wouldn’t be surprised if not. But that doesn’t mean they don’t understand speech (after all, they know everything their minions know/knew).
There’s quite a lot of glitches in GW1 where you can get to the “end of the world” (as GWW dubbed it) and many were explicitly stated for mapping purposes, and it never led to bans or said glitches getting fixed (probably because mapping in GW1 is a huge kitten). I wouldn’t really call it an exploit, especially in GW2 where there’s nothing but observing more lovely terrain of the Anet krewe’s work.
Anyways, what do you mean “the first EotN outpost where you get in GW1 isn’t there”? Do you mean the actual Eye of the North outpost in GW1 (in which case, yes it is, its where the asura gate is), or do you mean the outpost all the way south of it where you end up after the quest to get into EN content? In which case… not surprising. Wouldn’t be surprised if the lake was missing since all they had to do was make the tower and what you can see from within it, really.
I fail to see where Jormag is related to winds – his element is ice, and his powers are mental based. There’s nothing air-based about him – in fact, none of the Elder Dragons have anything air-based about them; the closest we get is Kralkatorrik with his heavy use of lightning, however lightning is present at places of high corruption for Jormag and Zhaitan too, so that’s not saying much (but still its a much greater aspect of Kralkatorrik). Nothing says that Grenth got his demi-god power from Dwayna’s domain. It could be that he just had powers over a domain, and that because of his personality they were cold and mortality (he was always known as the Prince of Ice and Sorrows, as you said, and similarly always represented judgment and mortality).
I fail to see where or how Kralkatorrik is related to chaos magic. Nothing about him is chaotic – no more than any other Elder Dragon, at least. He is lightning, earth, and crystal, heat and electricity (his corruption appears to have been a case of super-heating and super-cooling the land, and in Edge of Destiny there’s a lot of usage of the word “melt” and its various forms). This is not related to chaos magic at all.
In the long run, the only ties there is would be that both groups hold domain over certain elements/aspects of nature. Thing is – chaos and illusions isn’t nature. Lyssa’s the odd-man-out among the Six Gods in regards to having domain over nature – or rather, was until Abaddon’s death, then it became Kormir who’s the odd-man-out. So at the very best, you can only ever have five dragons and gods linked to each other – and even then, Jormag/Zhaitan/Grenth/Dhuum/Dwayna makes things very complicated.
You’ll always have Kralkatorrik without a god, and you’ll either have Zhaitan without a god and Lyssa without a dragon, or Kormir without a dragon.
Unless you seriously stretch things to the realm of disbelief – like saying Dwayna is Jormag’s counterpart because of Grenth being Dwayna’s son – then it just doesn’t work.
And this is ignoring the implications that there are possibly more than six Elder Dragons (you got Kuunavang being placed on par to Glint, and no Elder Dragon has any relation to anything Kuunavang has – e.g., stars – and you got Trahearne stating after Zhaitan’s death in his new little instance that Elder Dragons are beginning to awaken around the world – these two bits heavily imply there are many more Elder Dragons than the six the jotun stelae mentions).
@Nevarato: Okay, now I’m seeing what images you’re referring to for most – though editing the image a little in Paint to circle what you meant would have been more helpful from the get-go. :P
The top look like White Mantle to me – resembles this concept art from GW1, imo – not from that art, but the same design for armor. The left do look like charr. The right is a tower, seems like it could be anything really, so hard to tell.
I only see one dragon on it though, and some snake-like stuff (too snake-like to be forgotten, which have four webbed arms, though they could be).
The left seems to me to be only 1 charr, the other being something else. Looks like it could be either mursaat or a titan.
@Narcemus: And that’s related to the Flameseeker Prophecies, how? Remember, Eye of the North took place 6 years after the Flameseeker Prophecies were completed. Those images would be related to Prophecies and Prophecies alone.
The first one: The Asura have an inquest council member and even an entire Inquest district/section in Rata Sum. Why? They are the enemy, they are practically at war.
You should do the level 20-30 storyline for asura. The Dynamics first story step also elaborates on this if you talk to all the NPCs.
The Arcane Council is pro-asura domination of the world, and Flax is working actively for long-range plans for such to occur. The Inquest give high results at cheap prices due to their methods, so unless safer methods of similar results are found (such as during the Dynamics storyline for asura), the Arcane Council will take the Inquests’ products to further asura domination. Furthermore, as the Inquest councillor says in the Council Level instance, most of the Arcane Council would rather be working on their own projects rather than be monitoring the race – the Inquest, however, doesn’t mind this so they volunteer for many Arcane Council duties.
Flax even goes out of his way to ensure that any knowledge that would change the state of asura dominance (such as the Elder Dragons consuming magic – the plot of the lvl 20-30 storyline) is hidden away, via using the Arcane Eye organization.
In other words: The asuran government is corrupt, thanks to Flax, and the Inquest, though amoral, provide results the asuran government likes. So the Arcane Council tolerates the Inquest, while no one else does. But since its law to accept Inquest presence in Rata Sum and its nearby areas, nothing can be done by your run of the mill asura in those areas.
The Second one: The Norn allow the Sons of Svanir to stay in Hoelbrak. When I found out that the Sons of Svanir were allowed to stay there I was baffled. They are the enemy, they openly collaborate with Jormag… JORMAG! One of their greatest enemies. Not only that, they attack every norn on site, raid their homesteads, destroy shrines of the spirits of the wild and are effectively the greatest traitors in the history of norn culture.
Its how the norn treat people. They don’t judge an individual by their beliefs, what they say, or who they party with.
They judge an individual by that individual’s own action. Lets say you hate Republicans in America – if I say I’m a Republican, would you hate and condemn me for what the Republican politicians do? A norn would not (in general, that is – there are some norn who’d condemn all Sons of Svanir just for being such – most, in fact). Its the same concept, despite who the Sons of Svanir are following.
Those Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak are not attacking every norn on sight (this is actually a mechanical situation, rather than actual lore), nor do the Hoelbrak Sons of Svanir raid homesteads. At least they haven’t been proven to do so. And in lore, those out in the wilderness might not either.
The difference between a Son of Svanir and a Flame Legion or Nightmare Court member is that the Son of Svanir is just having a different set of beliefs – not all of them are openly hostile – whereas all Nightmare Courtiers are openly hostile, and the Flame Legion are proactively trying to become dominant over the other legions. They’re more hostile than the Inquest and Sons of Svanir.
I’ve been hoping ever since I saw the cave down icon at the Skull Plaza (the entrance to the Divinity’s Reach crypts) that we’ll eventually go into there.
As for the Great Collapse, I’ve been suspecting that its related to the bandits – the lore about it is that it collapsed during the night one day, it was formerly the arts district (and design wise was a Canthan district, possibly in lore too as per something Ree Soesbee said, but its not ever mentioned in-game) – the Shining Blade claim to have evacuated everyone just in time, but Riot Alice from the street rat storyline said her fathered died in it. The Shining Blade also blame poor foundation, but there are citizens who say they hear noises from down there – making them think of the rumors of drakes in the city sewers (which is obviously a reference to alligators in New York City sewers but still).
An interesting thing to note about the Shining Blade members around the Great Collapse – their story about the evacuation night doesn’t match the nearby citizens who were rescued’s stories. The Shining Blade claim they worked with Seraph and begun evacuating after the first signs of cracks, while the citizens said the Shining Blade were alone and evacuated before any signs were seen.
The facts remain for the Great Collapse as thus:
@WarriorOfAsgard: Actually, the separatists are against Caudecus as well. Uzolan was a Separatist, but they were going to kill Caudecus as well as Jennah during the dungeon. But he does have ties to the bandits, who are led by the White Mantle.
Rata Sum isn’t supported.
Its levitating.
Though its so big that the bottom falls into the water, but doesn’t touch the ground beneath.
I was just wondering who exactly it is that the Lionguard serve? In the first game they were a branch of the Krytan military, but centred on Lion’s Arch. From what I’ve gleaned they are still focused on Lion’s Arch, but given that Lion’s Arch is now a seperate city state that seems rather odd given that they are still officially a part of the Krytan armed forces.?
Of course it would seem rather odd that they’d still be part of the Krytan armed forces.
Because they’re not.
When Lion’s Arch flooded, some unknown events occurred (that will probably be explained in the third novel, whenever that gets released, since its about the flooding and re-establishment of Lion’s Arch as a multi-racial city) and they cut ties to the Krytan military (being replaced by the Seraph since 1079 AE, aka for about 150 years, anyways). Since Lion’s Arch’s refounding they have been a militant organization under command of the Captain’s Council of LA and their focus is to protect trade and commerce – hence why they have havens throughout continental Tyria.
I thought that too, but the Lionguard seem to be occupying Krytan forts
The havens exist throughout the continent – you can see one in Diessa, a few in Snowden Drifts and Wayfarer Foothills, and some in Caledon Forest and Metrica Province. They were established over older forts and made into havens for the trade routes between the major cities (because not everyone uses asura gates, possibly due to fines that we don’t get as players).
in the human quest one of their members was talking about not receiving enough reinforcements from Divinity’s Reach.
Said individual is former member of the Seraph – during the dead sister storyline, right? That individual was part of the sister’s unit (or worked with) and they weren’t getting reinforcements from Divinity’s Reach, so he left and joined the Lionguard.
I’ve been curious as to how someone got outside the Eye of the North in GW2, but the second picture is of an eagle motif – as seen in GW1. The first one, which has something not seen in GW1, is very similar to the Tarnished Coast and certain Depths of Tyria ruins, which I’ve always suspected to be of asuran origin (despite them being abandoned when the asura surfaced).
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