Guild Wars 2

They’re just going back to how they originally did things. Which is how a lot of GW2’s open world functions.

“It’s stuck in time until we say otherwise.”

SoulyD.9125:

An easy explanation for Sohothins survival would be glint. She took/teleported the Scepter of Orr and if she new about the sword, why not take it as well? Or Sohothin never was on the Ring of Fire but was left behind in the Shiverpeaks. Both variants sound good to me.
And Magdaer was at least damaged by the Foefire Spell, no special place needed (as far as I know), but it’s hard to say if it was really destroyed and thus wouldn’t have the same power after getting reforged or if it would be as good as new after the fix.
And speaking of the Scepter of Orr, maybe we will find it in the Maguuma again^^

Technically, nothing says that Glint took the Scepter of Orr. It, in fact, disappeared after Glint’s avatar did. Some folks speculate that it has its own defense mechanism to teleport it to safety if in danger – if so, Sohothin can have the same.

And Magdaer was broken to cast its spell – that’s a function, not a malfunction.

I don’t see why we’d find the Scepter of Orr in the Maguuma, given that it wasn’t there in the past, and last we knew, the Shining Blade (specifically Livia) had it.

Stephen.6312:

Hey Konig,
Thanks for responding to my query. Admittedly, I can’t be sure whether Kiel’s analysis of the post-Thaumanova situation definitively proves that chaos magic and dragon magic are two different things. Ceara’s wording during the Fractal, to me at least, seems to point in the opposite direction (i.e. chaos magic is the Inquest/asura description of Elder Dragon magic, they just don’t realize it until Thaumanova, perhaps because they were dealing with the magic of more than one dragon). Perhaps this is an example of how misleading the statement is? Hopefully Anet will clarify this in future episodes.

All Ceara/Scarlet says is that the Inquest mistook dragon energy for chaos energy. She never said they’re the same, really.

There’s really nothing that actually indicates the two is the same. And besides, we know that dragon energy corrupts – but mesmers have been using chaos magic even in GW1.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I haven’t done that fractal experience. I couldn’t find anyone interested in it at the time (after learning Scarlet was involved somehow) and definitely nobody is interested now. I say “suspected” because I do recall someone covering the Thaumanova matter and saying “chaos energy? Oh, no, it was dragon energy”.

And I also said “suspected” because I never could prove it. Better to use a soft thing like that than stating outright it is so.

All Scarlet said was that the Inquest flubbed up and mistook dragon energy as chaos energy.

People take the line out of proportion -something easily done due to its wording – by presuming that all chaos energy is dragon energy, rather than just the energy that the Inquest were dealing with.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s strange the Divine Fire is a gift from the Human Gods, and it is exceptionally powerful against dragon minions – yet the gods chose to hide themselves rather than use it to defend themselves. And they do hide themselves – despite answering rituals (Priestess Rhie in the Temple of Grenth) they do not take any direct action. Yet if the Divine Fire has such potential, they could. So why, then, do they not? Topic for another day.

They aren’t hiding. Time and time again, Jeff Grubb had stated in various interviews – the most recent being in 2014 – that the gods left because they want humanity to survive, or fall, on their own, and that the only thing keeping them in contact with Tyria for the past 1,070 years was Abaddon.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m still bothered by where Sohothin re-entered the world of Tyria from the Ring of Fire. Given the place erupted, it should have been unmade – gift of the Gods or no, the physical form should still have been destroyed. Clearly that is not so . . . why? And how did it become found?

Something that’s bothered me has been this: was there ever any canon statement that the sword Rurik had post-Exile was Sohothin?

As to its destruction… If the speculation that the Staff of the Mists and Scepter of Orr are god-made too, and the Staff of the Mists required a specific location to be destroyed, maybe Sohothin and Magdaer are the same – only capable of being destroyed when placed on certain locations (such as Hallowed Point).

Stephen.6312:

Hi guys,
Can we confirm whether we have been able to ascertain if chaos magic and dragon magic are two distinct things? I’m not sure where this might be stated as fact. Thanks.

sigh

Allow me to quote what I was just talking about, then…

“Just the basics: the facility was intended to study chaos magic, but the Inquest and their so-called “specialist,” Scarlet, pushed things in dangerous new directions."
→How so?
“They claimed there was a link between the Thaumanova’s chaos energy and Elder Dragon energy. They ramped things up past the point of safe operation, and the reactor melted down.”

This is Ellen Kiel talking about her findings from the fractal and other research. This clearly shows that there’s a difference – yet a link between – the two (chaos energy and dragon energy).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buih

He has unique dialogue for non-Priory charr, and for Priory charr. The talk about Shards of Orr doesn’t really divulge anything new, except that the situation from GW1 apparently hasn’t changed since – or so the rumors go (and given the failure of an expedition there, rumor may hold more fact than fiction).

Curious, I don’t recall seeing that ever before. I think it does require Whispers and sylvari combo (wouldn’t be the only sylvari who needs two requirements – there’s a Priory NPC in the Grove that only tells charr prior about the Shards of Orr GW1 dungeon in the nearby area).

Is that the full dialogue tree in teh images? Where’d the last quote come from?

But the images don’t really seem to hint to Mordremoth – if anything, it just points to Wychmire Swamp being solely NC. Do keep in mind that in Twilight Arbor was the Nightmare Tree – that’d count as “serious nightmare magic” if you ask me.

The mention of “nightmare magic” is curious to me.

But at this point I can’t think of anything that can argue against nightmare being Mordy’s doing – there’s too many relations to argue otherwise (the first mordrem – Overgrown – were typical NC models; Shadow of the Dragon in tutorial accompanies nightmare court hounds; nightmare court hounds/husks in CoE; some NC hounds mixed in with mordrem in the one cave in Dry Top).

Sylvari apparently don’t have hearts, so no, CPR wouldn’t work on them. It can work on a mordrem though!

As for warm/cold-blooded, I’m not sure but GoA says their bodies is colder than humans at least – that there is “no animal warmth to [their] flesh” (page 5). Given that they’re plants, and they have sap for blood, I’m not sure they can be categorized as either warm-blooded or cold-blooded. We do, however, know they feel the cold – there’s a sylvari in the Grove talking about she disliked Hoelbrak for the cold (but this is not universal – it’s a subjective thing like with humans enjoying heat or cold, as there is a sylvari in Wayfarer Foothills, iirc, which doesn’t mind the cold).

As for sylvari death – per Killeen in GoA, her body began to wither within minutes of death. So I think that deterioration of their body is likely immediate and as such a good tell for whether or not they’re dead.

Larynx.2453:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Pale Tree has white leaves.

Sorry Konig but…

http://thewrittentale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/the-pale-tree.jpg

https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/8d324Pale-Tree-2.jpg

I agree it definitely is Malyck’s tree though.

Then I guess my graphic settings messed with the leaf appearances when I last looked, because they didn’t have pink – or at least that much pink.

Looks like a typo; toss it into bug forums. The bug is more likely in the story name, given that Josir pronounces the name.

Wanderer.3248:

Ugg, Druids. I like the idea of every other weapon choose except this one. Who wants to play some walking chanting robed bearded anachronism?

You seem to think that Tyria’s druids are the same as other fantasy game’s druids.

They’re not. Not really.

The only relation is that they’re both tied to nature.

Technically, we don’t know what druids looked like in life. Long before we meet any – even in GW1 – they had turned from humans into treants, and even then had shed their treatn bodies so as to become spirits that protect the Maguuma Jungle.

Hybarf Tics.2048:

I just realised something the Destroyers are already here since day one attacking outside the walls of Dominions of The Winds, when they start attacking inside the city itself then they will come crying to us for help and let us in. I think that will be the first sign that we must go after Primordius.

If you read the heart npc’s dialogue you’d know the destroyers have been attacking within the walls as well since day 1.

I’ll be pleasantly surprised if there will be a new playable race (tengu or otherwise), they just wanted to keep it secret for the PAX East demo.

Player.8373:

Dhuum
Grenth
Killeen
Veretta*
Livia*
Master Togo
Brutus
Count Zu Heltzer

Omg, I forgot about Killeen…

Yes, Killeen. Just. Yes.

Eventually, in grand total, I’d like to see 5. One themed to each trait.

But with HoT, I’d expect no more than 3, and think 2 is most likely.

I hope it isn’t just 1. Why? Customization. I don’t want to be shoehorned into a single progression for my characters just because. I don’t want to be stuck with " either progress as this, or don’t progress at all."

And in the end, capping at 5 works best, IMO. It’s the top amount of thematic specialization I can think of without delving outside the professions’ themes or niches, and it avoids eventual balance troubles with too many possibilities.

Just start out with 2, with the other 3 sketched out and ready to implement for future feature batches.

Besides, it works well. Ranger goes druid for nature magic (gains magical weapons), archer for marksman (gains guns), <insert meleeing name here> for skirmisher (gaining more melee weapons), beastkeeper for beast master (gains primarily pet boons, like more pets to switch between and more skills per pet), and then a trap and tool focused specialization for wilderness survival.

I just hope they keep underwater content in mind when designing specializations.

Larynx.2453:

http://i.imgur.com/ruwlh2C.jpg

This was specifically at 27 minutes in the Twitch broadcast. They were talking about the maps and biome levels in the new zones. Seems odd to put the Pale Tree there, unless…?

Not Pale Tree.

Pale Tree has white leaves.

That has pink.

Malyck’s tree found?

Only after I see good reviews on its story by some folks I trust.

Or if they manage to utterly blow me away with mechanic changes. But that’ll be VERY hard to do.

Silalus.8760:

• No new weapon types (per class yes, but overall to the game no)

Did you not see Rytlock slash at that mordrem with a spear. On land?

That’s a new weapon – even if it’s a cheat so Anet doesn’t have to add new models to old sets (they can just take the underwater version and make it on land too; like they do for some tridents sharing models with spears).

-ahem-

I’a Abaddon! I’a Almighty ABADDON!

But more seriously, I’d enjoy summoning Shiro Tagachi. He was one of my favorite enemies in GW1.

Or The Lost – who wouldn’t want to summon one of the two Margonites to side with the good?

How about Optimus Caliph! Summon Mursaat Lord Soul to sight by your side (and potentially against mursaat!).

Ayakaru.6583:

Shiro is the underworldish area, that area was disconnected from the mists to seal evil things like abaddon and corrupted angels and spirits and stuff. I don’t think you can channel anything from there.
Kormir said she’d clean the place up, but since we haven’t heard from her since…

Shiro was last seen in the Realm of Torment. Which is where Kormir ruled, and where Mallyx – a confirmed spirit to call upon – was.

…

Shiny’s dead?

More seriously, I highly doubt Colin brought into consideration every dragon we’ve known. Which has included a total of 6 good dragons (Glint, Kuunavang, Gleam, Shiny, and Albax); only 2 were in subcontinental Tyria.

Snowball.3497:

• Revenant – Uses a Spear (proof) or Greatsword (proof)

That’s a sword, not greatsword.

Snowball.3497:

• Thief – Uses a rifle (proof)

While unsurprising, not sure that’s a thief.

Do we know how many specializations a profession will have? I hope it’s more than one.

Mesmer specialization includes a shield weapon and a clock skill.

ahem

CHRONOMANCER SPECIALIZATION FOR MESMERS CALLING IT NOW

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Chaos Orb (given by Countess Anise, then infused through Thaumanova with “chaos magic”. . . suspected to be a misnomer of dragon energy)

Correction: The Inquest added dragon energy to chaos magic, thinking the two to be the same. That’s what caused the explosion – mixing chaos and dragon energies without knowing. Explained by Ellen Kiel if you talked to her during Fractured! after doing the fractal – and again later during A Study in Scarlet

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The Divine Fire is known to be associated with Ascension, specifically the last key to reaching the interior of Augury Rock while the vision crystal draws the attention of the Five Gods down to witness the fight against the Doppleganger. It is not yet known to be associated with Magdaer or Sohothin, which until recent developments were just copies of the “Fiery Dragon Sword” possessed by father and son of a prominent royal line. (The direct decent of it being through Orrian royal lines being debatable, and highly unknown at this time.)

Magdaer and Sohothin are actually the originals – the rest were the copies. But in Episode 8, it is stated that Divine Fire was a gift of the gods to both Forgotten and humans. It is also shown to be highly effective against dragon minions – or at least mordrem – while Foefire ghosts are immune to (Kralkatorrik’s) dragon corruption, and ghostfire which comes from said ghosts can burn through anything (relates to Ogden’s warnings of divine fire being deadly) but burns exceptionally fast through risen. Magdaer and Sohothin were also gifts from the gods.

Nothing solid, but the parallels are undeniable.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s not necessary they look like mordrem, especially if their appearance was influenced, as we now can agree through lore Konig has provided.

You’ll have to forgive me, but what lore that I’ve provided shows this, exactly?

Shiren.9532:

-snip on Mawdrey-

“Grown under influence of a hero” would include what’s fed to Mawdrey.

As shown with Glint’s full story – taken from both Arah explorable and Edge of Destiny (as well as the little recap by Kas and Jory in Hidden Arcana), the Forgotten ritual merely gave free will. Thus, it was still possible for Glint to serve Kralkatorrik – and when adding it all up, it seems she did for a time.

So even with the Forgotten ritual, it would be possible for a sylvari to still serve Mordremoth – arguably – so the concept of needing proper nurture would still be around.

Shiren.9532:

I’m saying that given all evidence – including both Glint and Mawdrey – that purifying dragon minions don’t make them so different as sylvari are. Sylvari look nothing like mordrem, they function nothing like mordrem. Mawdrey does on all accounts – looks, function, everything that Glint remains sharing with her old self, Mawdrey shares with the modern mordrem.

And that’s been half of my point – originally.

Glint still functions like a dragon champion – she consumes magic; she remained crystalline; she retained her powers – it’s just that she had a mind of her own.

Mawdrey also still looks and functions like a dragon minion – it consumes magic, remains very mordrem-like (all three generations), etc.

But sylvari don’t function like dragon minions. They differ even from Glint and Mawdrey.

Shiren.9532:

My problem with this argument has always been the implication that there needs to be a strong formula for what constitutes an ED minion and what doesn’t.

Take minions of Zhaitan, Jormag, Kralkatorrik and Primordus as example. Had Zhaitan, Jormag and Kralkatorrik been the only known EDs the rules would state EDs don’t create minions, they corrupt them.

First off, Kralkatorrik creates minions too (The Shatterer; by description, the crystal guardian-thing from Ghosts of Ascalon).

Second off, no, nothing says there needs to be. But we see it anyways. And it encompasses mordrem too.

Third, there are differences between the Elder Dragons and their minions. But there are also similarities. Things like “how/what they choose to corrupt” is among the differences, not the similarities. What they can corrupt, however, is a shared similarity – we know, for example, that Primordus can corrupt the living, that Jormag can corrupt the dead, that Zhaitan can corrupt the living and plants. But they don’t choose to – where the difference lies.

Shiren.9532:

Maybe when we get those answers the sylvari will make more sense as ED minions?

Maybe.

Shiren.9532:

Is it explicitly stated that all known minions consume magic?

Not in one place, no, but we see dragon minions drawn to places of magic more often than not. We know that mordrem do; we know that risen do; we have seen destroyers gather near close-by magical locations; we’ve seen icebrood collecting artifacts for Jormag. The only one we’re lacking such on, aside from the know-nothing-about DSD, is Kralkatorrik. But that’s also group of dragon minions we have the least knowledge of out of the four.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well . . . sylvari, for one.

Which is the very subject of debate and thus not a proper piece of evidence or support.

“Sylvari are different because the sylvari are different” is not that very convincing of an argument. That’s like looking at a question in a fantasy setting and shouting that the answer is “BECAUSE MAGIC!”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The core of their lore has more parts to it than that. The cycle of awakening is part of it, the fact no cycle has succeeded in preventing wholesale destruction of life on Tyria is part of it, and the notable fact we did manage to destroy what was thought to be indestructible.

I disagree, but it’s semantics at this point. The whole cycle of awakening, the destruction of Tyria, and everything else about their waking/sleeping/eating habits is all tied to the fact they consume magic and balance it for the world.

That last part hardly seems a “core point” in their lore, to me, though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

First and simply – because there are and it was already stated to be. So there are the differences already.

But if you insist . . . you already gave one potential answer – due to Ronan’s influence, the sylvari are not like mordrem except in lineage being traced back to Mordremoth. Considering we aren’t sure what that “influence” consisted of or what was done to the seed prior to it being planted, there’s a lot of what we don’t know going on.

Though, this does bring the snag of Malyck . . . again . . . to the forefront. If he is from another tree, why does that tree produce sylvari which also have a humanoid form and aren’t like mordrem? Was the other tree influenced in the same fashion by a human, and if so how did that come to happen? How many more other trees exist and are they all producing sylvari or are some producing mordrem?

Third, we do not know if sylvari or the pale tree consume magic passively to the extent the Risen did during the mission you mentioned before. Considering it’s unclear if the Destroyers of a past age did or did not seek out magic instinctively to consume it . . . or instead instinctively struck out at magic which was capable of harming them . . . there is much doubt here.

Too much doubt to say with certainty a dragon minion needs to actively be consuming magic at the same rate at all times.

Ronan’s influence/the reason Malyck is so similar to sylvari only hold an answer to their mentality – like the Forgotten ritual for Glint. It does not answer other questions, such as appearance (which, to me, you did not bring up sample support for countering with your “well Eyes and Mouths and Tequatl differ from standard mobs!” argument).

The prospect that sylvari simply consume “less” magic is an interesting one, but it brings up the question of why the Elder Dragons don’t consume magic slower to prolong their waking cycles. It is also something that would not go unnoticed when near magical artifacts unless it is so insignificant amount of magical consumption that they may as well not be consuming magic at all – which, again, begs the question of why don’t the Elder Dragons regulate this to avoid being forced into hibernation.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Great! And the other two?

No canonical mention. Which was my point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We also don’t have any mention of there not being energy there. Though there is whatever magic was used to make the Effigies and whatever power permits the ghosts to be as potent as they are in the return trip.

Lack of evidence is not the evidence of lacking. It’s on you to prove that there was, thus being usable as your argument that “destroyers didn’t go there despite magical energies there,” more than it is on me to prove that there wasn’t.

In GW2, we learned that effigies are made by the souls of a sacrifice. There’s nothing to suggest that the spirits of the dead’s strength is altered by an external force.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And I’m not arguing that at all. I’m arguing there was far better targets than the ones which were chosen, and easier to breach and seize. If consumption is a key drive of the Elder Dragons – why is it these were overlooked when it is clear Mordremoth doesn’t need to be made aware of strong magical sources . . . it just is.

I fail to see how seizing the closest magical locations near their breaching points and/or asura gates is any harder than traveling dozens if not hundreds of miles to seize and control other locales.

And on that last part: do remember that we weren’t yet dealing with an Elder Dragon – just its minions. And I’m not so sure that Mordremoth “just is” aware, keep in mind that the tendrils ran along the ley lines, which were redirected by Scarlet – so it was made aware… then it got close to other magical objects/locations, and attacked (near) them too. Zhaitan didn’t collect artifacts in the temple of Abaddon for hundreds of years, either, despite proximity.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I stand corrected on Kisu, but there are still sources which could have been taken in Cantha not far from where the Destroyers would have been from spotting where the fissure entrance was. Similarly, Elona, but there’s not as many on Istan as there were in Kaineng.

Presuming that such is canon. Which there is nothing to suggest such. We even had Linsey Murdock state that the quests going from Nightfall to Prophecies/Factions isn’t canon lore – as it would involve time travel of going back in time 3 years – but a mechanical facilitation to allow Nightfall-made players access to the other games.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You asked me to point it out. Don’t get snarky because I did. Also, the maps may not change but spawns would “phase” and it was possible to do that as of Nightfall. If they chose not to do it in EOTN for this, it might be because . . . those Destroyers were meant to be there.

The thing is you actually didn’t prove that the destroyer hive was there before the foundry was. Both are there before the actual mission, and both are there after the actual mission.

So where did you “point it out” that one came before the other?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There were no Soul Batteries in Bloodstone Fen.

… Yes, there were. – you can clearly see 3 of them floating above the bloodstone.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But it wasn’t a release in proportion to the strength of the death triggering the effect. Which means there is a variable amount of entropy in the process. Which leads me to point out it is still, thusly, taking in energy even if it is to release a portion of it out again.

The strength of the magic was proportionate to the proximity to the bloodstone… Stronger magic, closer to the bloodstone. If the bloodstone was taking in magic, then we shouldn’t have been healed, but hindered if anything.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s only because Orr as a region didn’t exist in GW1, due to it being . . . mostly underwater. It seemed pretty clear it was close enough to have some malign influence creating undead. Hinting at Zhaitan, so it seemed.

Also, if it was a settlement of Orr than it’s Orrian territory. Which means it’s effectively in Orr.

I am talking geography, not political borders. Orr is the peninsula. It was, geographically, part of the Tarnished Coast. Not Orr, like you claimed.

And there’s no way they were hinting at Zhaitan back in Prophecies, when the thought of Elder Dragons (very clearly given the number of retcons) did not exist in their heads.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And Eir’s been wrong before, not to mention other characters being mistaken on factual basis in the past.

But you have no basis for the likelihood that this one thing, in all of the things Eir mentions on the subject, is wrong. She was 100% accurate on the story of Jora and Svanir, and Jeff Grubb even referenced her mention of Drakkar drawing power from the Sons after their founding to aid Jormag rise.

So why, when the conversation is referenced by a dev, would this be wrong? What support do you have to claim otherwise?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it didn’t catch fire until the mursaat stepped in and helped push back the charr themselves, before vanishing with Saul and leaving Dorian in charge. In short, the mursaat created the White Mantle we see while Saul created the name and the basis of them.

I think the BMP and the fact that the Test of the Chosen (which is administered by knights who’s likely to be promoted to Justiciar) existed for at least 3 years prior to the Searing proves you wrong.

But this is irrelevant in the end.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ah. But we don’t know he didn’t. We know he was corrupted by the power leaking out of the frozen lake, and we know for some indeterminate amount of time he was ravaging homesteads before he was slain by Jora. We don’t know what happened before our characters came into the picture.

Edge of Destiny, page 221: “Svanir wandered the wastes in madness, attacking any who came near.”

Doesn’t sound like the description of someone who’d establish his own cult.

Kayji.4390:

1) Why didn’t the pale tree imitate ventari as well?
2) How does the pale tree know how female humans look like?
3) How come Malyck is also human looking when he’s from another tree?

Well for number 2:

There were more humans around the Pale Tree’s sapling form than just Ronan.

Kayji.4390:

It also doesn’t address the connection between the PC sylvari and the druids.

And why must there be one?

Kayji.4390:

Furthermore, if we’re going to use quotes pre-release then I can say that the earliest concepts of the sylvari were described as ‘’The Sylvari are a young race of magical spirits in the Guild Wars universe who have a strong connection to nature.’’ http://www.giantbomb.com/sylvari/3015-3740/images/
Ofc the concept as we know it was later changed. But I think Anet changed it to conceal the fact that the sylvari are linked to the spirits of the maguuma jungle in some way.

The quote I took “pre-release” was about the redesign of sylvari. Your quote predates that, therefore things have largely publicly changed. Though that quote isn’t entirely incorrect.

But we know that the sylvari are dragon minions. This really destroys the spirit theory, imo.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m more looking at what happened when you were near the Bloodstones, three times. The first time, it hampers resurrection skills (“Resurrection skills take 4 times as long to cast”), and the second time it takes energy when people die and has effects when that happens.

The first two times happened because of the Soul Batteries.

The third time it released an aura (exuding magic) that triggered on deaths (not dissimilar to necromancy, hence the theory that such magic was of the Aggression school).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But you argued they were drawn to the Raven Shrine because it was a magical location.

But I never argued that they are drawn far distances to all magical locations.

There was an asura gate leading near Raven Shrine. They passed through it, felt nearby magical power, and gathered toward said magical power. That’s what seems to be the situation, since they arrived in the area via a gate. The same is likely true for all other nearby magical locations – they gathered there because they were passing by, not because they sought it out.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

See, I don’t think they resemble them enough.

Far, far more than sylvari to mordrem, though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I think sylvari hounds and mordrem wolves look close enough alike, too. Remove the leafy coverings over the back, and you’re pretty close.

I fail to see how a normal wolf animal’s corpse that has a flower parasite puppeteering it is anywhere akin to a fully plant hound.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s where Orr was.

No. You’re not listening. Shards of Orr was in the Tarnished Coast – which is across the Strait of Malchor from Orr. Shards of Orr is not in Orr, it was a militant settlement of Orr.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s like saying the mursaat had nothing to do with creating the White Mantle, because people chose to join and possibly weren’t aware of the mursaat. We know the mursaat at least guided it to being formed, with interest in making it go a certain direction.

That’s a false comparison.

The Sons of Svanir formed because norn saw Svanir’s power boost and wanted the same. They sought Jormag out, not the other way around. This is established in Edge of Destiny – when Eir is explaining the history of Jormag’s rise to Logan before the Dragonspawn fight.

With the White Mantle: Saul stumbled upon the mursaat and then spread its teachings.

If you want to properly compare White Mantle to Sons of Svanir, then what needed to happen was for Svanir to found the cult named after him. But he didn’t, therefore the comparison doesn’t match.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You might question it, but it did happen. As of yet no single one of those three introduction quests has been held up as canon. (It probably never will be determined one is worth more than the others.)

The Kryta one has – there’s explicit mention of an asura gate underneath Lion’s Arch during War in Kryta.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fancy? The large amount of energy the Flame Legion had bound there in the process of making it a center of their worship. It bugs me slightly there aren’t Destroyers there when they were painting them as “the new Gods” . . . .

As for the other dungeons, there are the Sepulchre of Dragrimmar or the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. Both involve powerful dwarven artifacts which went untouched.

Funny, I don’t recall any mention of there being a “large amount of energy” in Cathedral of Flames. As for the others, I’d have to just say “why would they attack all magical locations?”

Just because some weren’t attacked doesn’t mean destroyers don’t consume magic. It’s like saying Zhaitan doesn’t consume magic because he didn’t personally go to the Ring of Fire Islands and consume the magic of the bloodstone there.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Right, and it carried power enough to turn him into something capable of bending reality to make the seas turn to jade and the forest to stone. So all that potential power and it wasn’t interesting?

Uh… the Jade Wind was powered by magic gifted by Dwayna. Per An Empire Divided. So no, the royal Canthan blood cannot power something on the scale of the Jade Wind. That was a gods’ gift that got twisted.

And doesn’t exist in Kisu.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It was there beforehand, because the ranger boss “Storm of Destruction” was there for skill capturing. Look it up. You can actually go there at any time before doing that major quest and it’ll be there.

Because you can tell when the instance and the open world takes place in accordance to each other when the maps never change (sole exception: the garden zone in Vabbi). Right. Very convincing argument there.

Also, the foundry is there still! Sure, it doesn’t have anti-destroyer golems yet, but it’s still a golem foundry – and golems are powered by magic.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

My second argument would be because of the influence of Ronan’s corpse giving a “template” of sorts to shape the sylvari on, but that largely assumes a lot as to other trees which are out there doing the same.

Which was debunked – in a way – back in 2009. It was stated that the sylvari’s humanoid appearance is due to the Pale Tree shaping them to be roughly humanoid due to the influence from Ronan. Got nothing to do with corpses.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t need to explain it, you need to explain why it is imperative all minions share those traits you have selected when it’s clear they don’t have to.

Where is it “clear” that they don’t have to?

As Elysian stated, the consumption of magic is THE defining point of Elder Dragons and their minions. It is THE core of their lore.

You want an explanation? There you have it. But please do explain how there can be so many differences between mordrem and sylvari, when such differences don’t exist between different kinds of risen, different kinds of destroyers, etc.

There’s actually a norn in one of the spirit lodges in Hoelbrak – not sure which, but the second floor to the right when entering the main entrance – that wants to use the tooth to be the tip of a gigantic balista to pierce Jormag since no one can ship the tooth.

@Randulf: Well aware and agreed. If it’s a GW1 character then the figure has been/will be heavily hinted at. -coughlikeJurahcoughIkidcough-

@Goat: They’ve had spear/shield artwork since pre-release, I doubt it’s really a hint.

Though battleaxes, which I think we saw in the trailer, is new.

I’ll give you props for originality. Morgahn was a favorite of several folks – myself included – so I wouldn’t be shocked if they decided to bring him back somehow, but I’m rather doubtful.

The armor design isn’t that dissimilar to Morgahn’s armor either. Though given how abstract it is, it is also similar to the GW1 Order of Whisper armor – mainly that of Jurah (and who got a nod in this past episode? Hmmmm…).

But there’s really no reason to believe Morgahn lived an additional 250 years on top of already being an old soldier by the time of Nightfall.

As to who would be onlooking? White Mantle is a good possibility.

That said: @Randulf: I’m fairly sure that when Angel said that everyone will know who E was, she was meaning that the players would all recognize E, not the PCs.

lordkrall.7241:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Or it was removed subliminally. Or from an obscure interview. I certainly do recall it.

But Bobby, why not look into your lore bible document and see what that says regarding the luminaries and birthdates? Because if it’s different (if something is said) then that may mean that whatever I saw was a slip up.

Or maybe, just maybe, you are simply mistaken? Is that really such an impossible thought?

Obviously. I had thought that was implied. And thanks, by the way, for taking the lines out of context and responding to them in a fashion as if I’m some condescending, uptight, overbearing asswipe.

You and the others who’ve been taking the reveal of the sylvari to insult me continuously have been so much fun to read.

Though I’m sure you’d take this to be in the exact same manner as you presented my previous post through your response. But guess what? I’m not a know-it-all. And until last year, I would tell others not to call me their various nicknames – to no prevail. If you actually knew me, you would know that I’m quite the opposite of what most people here think of me – either side of the coin, both those who insult me and those who appreciate my posts here.

But I digress. Could I have been wrong? Of course. But I’m fairly sure I saw somewhere, in some form, that the luminaries are the first born of their cycle and/or that the Firstborn were born over the course of 3 days. I just don’t recall where. And this isn’t the first time I’ve recalled something but not the source – like how sylvari couldn’t be corrupted by Kralkatorrik (eventually re-found that it was from the original sylvari page on guildwars2.com).

And because I may be wrong, is why I asked Bobby if he could state what their internal wiki or whatevertheycallit says.

All I know for certain is that I saw this before July 2014, as that’s when I first write it up on the wiki. Given that I was temp banned prior to, it could be as early as the Tower of Nightmares arc that I found it (and I did make a new sylvari then). But it may also have been an interview for all I know – which Anet can just toss aside because interviews are “malleable”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They consume life force and energy, and we know this very well. Specifically the type of energy that is tied to resurrective magics, but they still do. No magic was stronger near the Bloodstones so I confess I find it hard to believe they exude magic . . . no matter what I’m told, if we go by what is in evidence they do not, in fact, exude magic but consume life force.

Which still brings the question up – if they exude magic why did no Destroyers target them? Those should have been top of the list.

The Bloodstones didn’t “consume life force and energy” or “energy that is tied to resurrection magic”. You’re very mistaken on the lore. What happened is that the Bloodstones were used as catalysts for the Soul Batteries taking souls of those killed atop of Bloodstones – resurrection couldn’t work because the souls were trapped. No soul, no resurrection (resurrection was still possible mechanically, but not by lore). No energy draining involved. No life force draining done by the Bloodstone itself.

As to why no destroyer targeted them? Maybe because 2 of the 3 known were out of the game area, and the third was far away from any destroyer activity and – as I said above – the apparent goal of the destroyer wasn’t “consume magic” but “kill all the things”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why should it? Why do the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan not resemble the same Risen which we fight? Why does Tequatl the Sunless look as it does?

Why do the fern hounds not resemble sylvari, come to think of it?

I would say that the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan do resemble the common risen – especially eyes, which is basically a risen tied to an anchor holding a giant eyeball. Tequatl is also very risen-looking; compare it to the abomination. The only difference is the shape, not the appearance.

And sylvan hounds do look akin to sylvari – colors aside, the texture is very similar. Unlike every mordrem out there.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

He didn’t create the tombs, but there were already undead in the area. We know this from Shards of Orr. But then, Jormag is creating an army of Sons of Svanir so he can turn them into Icebrood so . . . you figure it out.

Shards of Orr wasn’t anywhere close to Orr. It was in the Tarnished Coast, across the Strait of Malchor.

And Jormag isn’t really “creating” the Sons of Svanir – according to their lore, the Sons of Svanir are formed by their own choices to join. Then they come into contact to Jormag and his corruption via the shamans. This is vastly different from, say, Jormag creating sapient ice elementals just to later corrupt them.

Jaken.6801:

-snip-

Your argument seems, to me, to be missing the fact that: “We come from the jungle dragon.” – Wynne

If this was simply a case of Mordremoth targeting an unrelated plant race because hey, they’re plants and twisting plants is his thing, then I’d 100% agree that makes sense and is a proper comparison to Zhaitan and tombs. The thing is, however, that isn’t the case.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Except the Destroyers did not seek out the Bear Shrine, or the Wolf Shrine. They only emerged in the Raven Point caverns., when we see later they can potentially emerge elsewhere.

They should have gone to the Eye of the North, by all accounts, but strangely . . . did not. Despite it being a rather potent site of power. Even now it’s silent but untouched. Why is that?

Let me get this straight. Your argument is “because they don’t go after all of the magical locations, they weren’t targeting magical locations”?

Why would have have to go to Bear/Wolf Shrine? Why would they have to go to the Eye of the North? And on the Eye, your last statement holds something to think about: why has Jormag apparently avoided it?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There was already a Destroyer Vent in the area of the Golem Forge, the charr presumably herded the Destroyers into a pit (where they conveniently stayed for a long period), but the Cathedral of Flame was untouched . . . other dungeons with places of power remained untouched, and they could have emerged and attacked Kaineng since they were apparently in old catacombs under it . . . they could have attacked Emperor Kisu, a source of incredible magical potential as evidenced by what Shiro was after. And they did not.

Why would they go to Cantha if they were nowhere near (that intro quest is of questionable canonocity as it would place the group under Kamadan, Lion’s Arch, and Kaineng at the exact same time)? What’s so fancy at the Cathedral of Flames (there wasn’t any powerful artifacts, just Ascalonian artifacts that ghosts tied themselves to).

And what Shiro was targeting was the royal blood. Likely no more potent than any others’ blood.

And that fissure wasn’t there before the factory – that was how they went to attack it. Unless I’m forgetting something and you’d like to enlighten me.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So do a lot of people, and so do you. But to be more precise, I’m stipulating a lot off the absence of certain things. Or of certain behaviors, much like you have about the sylvari consuming magic or not doing so.

It’s also uncertain if the Vinewrath is in fact the source of the mordrem . . . chances are it’s not since the vines fail to die after it does, and mordrem still are active after it is gone. Killing it does little except stop its own activity for a time.

My arguments have been based off of dialogue and observations. Hardly “maybes”. But the Vinewrath is stated to be the source of the local mordrem, at the very least, and that’s my point – it may not be the source but it is a source, meaning that not all mordrem come directly from the dragon – the argument you’re holding for why sylvari differ.

Furthermore, Vinewrath doesn’t die, it retreats.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And that could explain why certain behaviors aren’t inherent to the sylvari. You’re handing me back my points as you argue they’re not with merit.

You’re going to explain how all minions having shared traits but other minions being better at said shared traits explains why there can be minions without said shared traits.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Short stories aren’t in canon. You know better. It can be accepted her remains held magical power, but that is not the same thing.

Also “toughest Prophecies bosses” . . . please. Good interrupt timing and a solid team of six could take her down. The Confessor put up a better fight than her. Either of the two, come to think of it.

Angel McCoy explicitly stated that the short stories are canon. And besides, that short story was put in-game

Pre-Factions, she and Rotscale were two of the toughest fights for most players. But that’s all subjective, especially if you know the biggest tricks to fighting a certain boss. Every boss has mechanical exploits that allow perfect destruction against – Glint was no exception.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah, but it doesn’t look like a great White Oak tree. Really makes me wonder what people think a White Oak looks like. Take a look at the Grove sometime – it’s all plant organics until you hit the ground level, then it’s some rock or soil but mostly plants.

You do realize that it’s explicitly stated that the Grove is grown by the sylvari, right? First by Kahedins, then later by Gardeners.

However, you’re deflecting the question. Why doesn’t the Pale Tree look anything akin to the mordrem?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

By the way, I don’t think they’re dragon minions so much as a very suggestible crop (heh) of people who can be turned. Sort of like Zhaitan turned the tombs of Orr into his own personal army.

You realize that Zhaitan didn’t create the tombs, and that he turned them into dragon minions right? It’s a poor comparison.

It would be like saying “Zhaitan created standard zombies so that he can corrupt them at a later date” rather than “Zhaitan created risen from tombs.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the mere presence of Destroyers didn’t seem to have such an effect on it in the past, nor did they seek out extraordinarily powerful locations and/or artifacts the first time they awoke.

You are wrong on the latter account. Clearly we wouldn’t know on the former due to the fact that the very fact that dragons (and their minions) consume magic wasn’t discovered until 1325 (lore discontinuity of Vekk’s and Gadd’s books aside).

And from Defending the Breach
Engineer Xapp: “How utterly fascinating! Those enormous savages have fabricated something quite remarkable. Could this structure, perchance, be drawing the attention and ire of the Destroyers?”
Engineer Xapp: “If my postulations are precise and this sanctuary is, indeed, a rallying point for invading Destroyers, then we shall need to expedite our descent. Otherwise, Captain Sargen’s group shall be caught betwixt and between.”
Engineer Xapp: “Regrettably, the conundrum of what draws the Destroyers here must await another day. Every Dwarf we save today puts another obstacle between me and danger tomorrow”

This is in reference to Raven Shrine; even in GW, the destroyers sought out places of magical power. It just wasn’t known why – nor ever speculated upon by NPC or player.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They did not behave as the newly-awakened Mordrem did, seeming more interested in spreading via asura gate than . . . say . . . going for the Bloodstones, or Scepter of Orr, or other places (the tomb Rotscale guarded in Majesty’s Rest).

This is more likely to do with the Great Destroyer. It was said that the Great Destroyer was Primordus’ alarm clock and herald – it was to prepare the way for Primordus’ awakening… by killing all life on the surface. It’s goal was genocide.

But it did go to the Central Transfer Chamber from elsewhere (it only just fell before the storyline, but the destroyers have managed to destroy “countless civilizations” already before we joined in – Source ) It also assaulted Glint’s child, sent minions to a magical golem factory, a spiritual shrine, and a Searing Cauldron. Curious, no?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, the sylvari come from the Pale Tree. The mordrem are directly created by the dragon.

And the Pale Tree comes from the dragon. Just like the mordrem we see seem to come from the Vinewrath. But they still consume magic. And they can all trace themselves back to Mordremoth.

It doesn’t seem to matter which champion created the dragon minions – so why would it for the sylvari? You’re stipulating this off of nothing but “maybes”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So if it knows everything its minions know, why create the Eyes at all? If it consumes everything through the risen rank-and-file, why create the Mouths? There has to have been a reason for their creation and function.

Specializations typically mean that you’re better than others. It’s like saying “an amateur biker can ride a motorcycle, so why use a professional dirt bike rider for a race?”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nothing hints the Pale Tree isn’t consuming magic. As for Glint, if she consumed magic, why wasn’t it harder to deal with her? It should have been like . . . fighting near the Bloodstones. But it wasn’t. Her lair had a lot of odd effects to it (both times we’ve visited it) but they didn’t seem to fit “magic is consumed”.

I can’t answer why it wasn’t harder to deal with Glint, though she was one of the toughest Prophecies bosses, but we know she consumed and held magic – this fact is the very foundation of the Zephyrite’s Aspect lore.

And why would fighting a being that consumes magic be akin to fighting near objects that exude magic?

Michael.8562:

When Wynne makes here revelation to Caithe she simply says “Dragon” – she doesn’t say which Dragon and Mordremoth wasn’t awake at that point (correct me if I’m wrong). So it’s possible that Trahearne did know and think that by taking out Zhaitan he’d fixed the issue. We know which dragon Wynne was talking about but at what point did they know exactly which dragon?

Apparently people seriously need to redo the mission.

Let me quote word for word because I’m seeing this a lot that there’s no mention of it being Mordy that made them.

“We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.”

The jungle dragon.

They come from the JUNGLE dragon.

Not the Undead Dragon. Not the Orrian Dragon. Not the Desert Dragon. Not the Deep Sea Dragon. Not the Rock Dragon. Not the Ice Dragon. Not even the Dragon. The JUNGLE Dragon.

Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuunglllllllllllllllle

Can it be any less clear that ArenaNet explicitly calls them Mordremoth’s creations?

I may detest the direction of the sylvari’s origin, but at least I’m not trying to claim there’s a lack of mention when it is very clearly mentioned.

@Plagiarized/Bobby/Titus: I’ve been looking for the line, but it doesn’t seem to be up on the wiki. I’m fairly certain it was on a low level sylvari of mine relatively recently while in the Grove – which could mean a C1 or C2 storyline (White Stag, Shield of the Moon, and Malyck are the storylines I did as such – as Dusk and Night).

Or it was removed subliminally. Or from an obscure interview. I certainly do recall it.

But Bobby, why not look into your lore bible document and see what that says regarding the luminaries and birthdates? Because if it’s different (if something is said) then that may mean that whatever I saw was a slip up.

Ranael.6423:

If you refer to the presence of Serimon, I don’t think this is a structure. And this is the only thing mentioned in the first paragraph of the short story.

The fact that Serimon refers to himself as a mender and has a clear role shows to me that there’s a structure for how to deal with bringing sylvari into the world, which is part of what the meeting is about.

Ranael.6423:

I couldn’t find a statement of Caithe saying this sadly. If it is true then you are right that there is a problem especially since when they chase the kraits it is said that they are with “two others of an even younger generation than Cadeyrn”.

If you mean that the events were shortly before the NC’s founding – you have to be a sylvari, I think, and go in a certain order of questioning her after the final memory.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There are common aspects, of course. But there’s also a fair amount of differences.

So you are saying it makes sense for there to be no differences, yet also few-to-no similarities, including a lack of difference in the defining factors of what makes a dragon minion (e.g., hive mind and consumes magic)?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Has this been tested and specifically stated yet? Field Test concerns asura characters, and The Concordia Incident didn’t have sylvari present. It’s evident dragon minions either consume magic or act as a channel to take magic in and send it to their master (I recall more the Mouth of Zhaitan…) but it seems to require specified items regardless. We have not seen all dragons doing this, as of yet – only Zhaitan and Mordremoth. And Jormag is, apparently, still active enough in the North.

In Field Test, the mere presence of risen reduced the ambient magic in the location. In The Concordia Incident, the mere presence of mordrem drained magic from the artifacts the caravan was transporting.

The mere presence of sylvari don’t drain magic from the area/artifacts. If this were so, I doubt that the Priory would let sylvari in their Special Collections.

Jormag has been collecting specific types of artifacts (see Honor of the Waves explorable – Plunderer path), so we can’t really say that Jormag hasn’t done this. Furthermore, we also know that Glint consumed magic. That’s four dragons there.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I find this insufficient, without further research evidence to state any dragon minions cause this drain and not particularly constructed ones (recall once the Mouth of Zhaitan was dead, it had not yet dispatched another before we broke into Arah and killed a second one).

So the fact that the mere presence of mordrem drained magic from artifacts nearby doesn’t count for comparison to the sylvari – both coming from the same dragon? Interesting argument.

And you keep falling back to the Mouth of Zhaitan, but we both know that the Mouth is not the sole minion to consume magic by this very discussion. It’s just a specialized minion. Same with the Eyes of Zhaitan – it’s outright stated that Zhaitan knows all its minions know, but yet it has specialized champions to act as its eyes throughout Orr.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Finally, the sylvari aren’t directly created through the dragon but through the Pale Tree. It is equally likely the Pale Tree’s willpower from whatever purified it or set it free from Mordremoth allows it to stay that particular ‘feature’ from the sylvari.

But nothing hints to the Pale Tree consuming magic either; and Glint did consume magic.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, no they don’t. But as I said, they’re second-generation . . . shall we go back to the pinned bit earlier?

Okay, sure. Then why doesn’t the Pale Tree look even remotely mordrem-like either?

The Vinewrath and the Tower of Nightmares were practically identical except in size. But they are like weeds, whereas the Pale Tree is described as a great White Oak tree.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It is said outright the sylvari were intended to serve the dragon. That does not mean it directly created them, and it is even unclear at this time if it created the seed from which the Pale Tree sprouted. (Or Malyck’s tree. Really a lot of unknowns on that front.) The sylvari are grown and shaped by their mother tree, and apparently other mother trees, resembling but not copying completely the dominant species at the time the seeds had entered the world – during the time of the Great Destroyer.

mtpelion.4562:

I got the impression that the lack of the use of the word “minion” in the game was intentional.

-snip-

I think that the Sylvari were more along the lines of an experiment in which Mordy cultivated them to be independent and intelligent, but susceptible to his influence.

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

Basically it was various ways of saying “we made the Vinewrath retreat, a job well done!” – the sylvari also said this once he finished his rounds as the generic NPCs set explosives.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That’s indirectly my point, Konig. Yes, if you take the trouble, you can line it up so you get icebrood in the story- and just as easily, my first, and second, character never went near them as part of their stories. Everything we’ve had with them so far has been considered optional stuff, things you can miss without hurting the main story, or at best things you can work through to get to what the narrative treats as important.

Every norn has to deal with them, however.

Which was my point. Yeah, you can ignore them if you play charr, human, etc. but you can avoid bandits in the same fashion; you can avoid Flame Legion in the same fashion; etc. etc.

Yet those forces have been a story focus. Just not the story focus (which has been Zhaitan, Scarlet, and Mordremoth in order).

1) The orbs are the dragons, or so our PC thinks.
2) It’d be Primordus, Zhaitan, DSD on left; Kralk, Mordy, Jormag on right. The “black” orb (turns lime after glowing) is Mordremoth; the dark green one is Zhaitan. At least, according to the Durmand Priory (go to their basement – Hidden Arcana or Arcana Obscura instances – and look at the cieling in the main room; it shows The All (what Scarlet/the PC mistook as the Eternal Alchemy – or what is part of the Eternal Alchemy, hard to tell which it is) and a letter at each orb, in Hidden Arcana there’s an NPC that explains that each letter represents an Elder Dragon (this is where we got S for the DSD’s first letter in its name).

This theory came about when the vision was first seen and folks thought that lime=Zhaitan because it appears black when dim. Hidden Arcana basically proved it wrong.

Furthermore, we know Primordus can corrupt living beings just as we see Kralkatorrik corrupt the land and creating minions from stone and we know how Zhaitan corrupted Orr itself.

Really? I did the Vinewrath three times and got four coat boxes… Twice the first go (fought one champ, Mangler), and one the second go (fought Dark Wing), and one the third go (fought Beekeeper, then Dark Wing due to slowness of north lane).

Figures that the RNG gods only smile on me after I lose interest in the game’s story.

While’s that’s the in-game theory, Cure, it’s been stated by Kristen Perry when the sylvari redesign was revealed that the sylvari’s appearance is 100% the Pale Tree’s doing – the sylvari’s humanoid shape is basically the Pale Tree’s abstract view of humans. Thus sylvan hounds would be the Pale Tree’s abstract view of canines.

Why Malyck appears humanoid, however, is the question.

Sublimatio.6981:

My opinion is that you can’t deal with the fact that sylvari are just different and that’s it – reason might be the Pale Tree spawning them in the human image, after all she is their creator, not the dragon. And the Pale Tree herself was planted on human graves + Ventari taking care of it. Knowing you from your posts, you would probably say that only Altar of Glaust and the forgotten ritual cleanses corruption, but we already saw with Mawdrey that it’s not true and there are other ways of doing that, which means there may be many ways of undoing the corruption that we are just not aware of

My opinion is that the sylvari being dragon minions is a lesser story choice (compared to, for example, sylvari being Tyria’s “anti-dragon” system; thus you have the balancers of the world (Elder Dragons) being rejected by the very thing they should be balancing – but this is a matter of opinion), and that they’ve set it up with trying too hard to counter the thoughts that may lead to such a thought – which still failed – that they make the sylvari too different.

They don’t even consume magic – the very principle of the Elder Dragons and their minions. Even Glint still consumed magic. Even mordrem consume magic by their very presence (see The Concordia Incident). Even Mawdrey is fed nothing but highly-magically-potent “foods” (Bloodstone dust).

I wouldn’t say that the Altar of Glaust+Forgotten ritual is the sole way to purify corruption. In fact, I’d argue against that notion – it’s just the only known means of purification (though given Mawdrey, I’d argue a second known magic that could potentially purify dragon corruption: whatever powered the Foefire).

I’m saying that given all evidence – including both Glint and Mawdrey – that purifying dragon minions don’t make them so different as sylvari are. Sylvari look nothing like mordrem, they function nothing like mordrem. Mawdrey does on all accounts – looks, function, everything that Glint remains sharing with her old self, Mawdrey shares with the modern mordrem.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And? All minions are not created equal – Destroyers have evolved as well in the last era or so. They act and for the most part look different than their original counterparts when you look past the “constructs of magma and stone”. The Great Destroyer did not resemble Glint, or Tequatl, or even the Nornbear . . .

(The Shatterer and Claw of Jormag on the other hand . . . look a lot alike.)

That’s the other thing, the Nornbear did not resemble or behave, or have powers anything like Icebrood. It could travel through the Mists. It was an intelligent stalker instead of an almost-mindless force. It doesn’t even resemble what Icebrood now resemble.

But the Nornbear and Icebrood both trace their origin of power back to Jormag.

Same deal with sylvari and mordrem. Same origin, different suite of powers and appearance.

As I pointed out in another thread – I won’t bother going into length again – there are common aspects seen across all dragon minions – including mordrem. The sylvari lack all of these for the most part. Some can be easily argued away, others cannot.

Dragon minion appearances do seem to evolve over time; Primordus and the destroyers’ case would be due to the fact that destroyers mimic living beings in shape and form (so the lore goes), so GW1 destroyers were likely copies from the previous dragonrise’s races, while GW2 destroyers are more modern races encountered. This could explain the differences between modern branded and Glint even, as we have evidence that claims Glint’s appearance pre-and-post-pufication remained unchanged.

But the sylvari don’t function akin to dragon minions. The most critical is magical consumption. Dragon minions – be it risen or mordrem or, likely, others – consume magic simply by proximity (see Field Test and The Concordia Incident). Sylvari don’t.

There are dozens of physical differences between mordrem and sylvari, but what truly matter are the functions they have. And they don’t even match mordrem. They don’t even match Mawdrey.

Cadeyrn, the first of the Secondborn, states he was only awake for a few months.

Thus your comment of “the new (in recent months) influx of sylvari” would include all – or at least most – Secondborn. Eitherway, FlamingFoxx has a point. The instance is talking about how there isn’t a structure yet for dealing with the Secondborn. But What Scarlet Saw clearly shows that when Scarlet woke there was. On top of that, these flashbacks are stated by Caithe to be shortly before the Nightmare Court’s forming, but as we see in the old blog post Dream and Nightmare stories, the Nightmare Court was established after things like Wardens were (unless the hunting party of noon sylvari led by Niamh was not a warden party) – in fact, the very reason for the Nightmare Court’s foundation, and how/when Faolain joined the Court, gets messed up with Episode 8 (Faolain fell to Nightmare long after its foundation, per Caithe in Twilight Arbor story; Caithe was the cause for Cadeyrn’s decision to go rogue, and it was relatively fast – there was no preaching and meetings to discuss things based off of the blog).

What FlamingFoxx said rings true to what I’ve been thinking for over a year now:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

You guys are screwing up and it’s a little ridiculous. If forum users can keep track of your lore, then why can’t you?

And yeah, many of these things are minor. Some of them are fixed when pointed out. But when you clump all of this together… it makes a ridgy storytelling.

But the main point… forum users shouldn’t be better than the authors on a continuous timeframe. The writers shouldn’t have to explain themselves and their story’s “inconsistencies and confusions” after every release like we’ve seen Angel (and sometimes Bobby) doing after each story release since Escape from Lion’s Arch. When you get to that point… you’re doing something wrong.

@Tobias: I think that you’re wrong when claiming that if someone doesn’t trust one post by Anet, they won’t believe any post by Anet on the same subject matter. Credibility is an entirely subjective matter in the firstplace, and most people don’t look at companies as individuals, but they look at the individuals in the company.

Simply put, a PR folk will be considered more credible on announcements for the future of the company, but less credible when dealing with bad publicity – because it’s their job to make the company look as good as possible. Angel and Bobby have both played “damage control” on the forums for every single Season 2 release (that alone says something to me), and Angel did so even for Season 1 to explain things that they didn’t put into the game (be it intentional or due to lack of time for development or whathaveyou). This, to some, makes them less credible than if Ree or Jeff were to come out here – or even if Peter Fries and Matthew Medina stated the same thing. But similarly, some will view all Anet personnel equally credible, or find that Angel is more credible. It’s entirely subjective. So no, just because they don’t believe Angel’s statement doesn’t mean they won’t trust any statement that says the same. Unless they’re very short-sighted and thick-headed.

All in all, my opinion on the matter is “if it was planned from the beginning, then they went too far to try to keep the fact hidden, because if you look you can find a dozen differences between mordrem and sylvari alone.”

@Koviko and Titus: On retcons, they are not innately bad. It’s really the ones that create inconsistency rather than those that fix inconsistency that are bad. Like, for example, a certain calendar change or the removal of a certain entire plot of the Personal Story and re-ordering some latter steps are both terrible retcons.

Underdark.3726:

The thing I don’t understand about the Vinewrath is why if we kill the champions it dies.

It doesn’t. Talk to the NPCs in the area just after beating the boss. The Vinewrath retreats and the Pact knows this.

By that very general definition, you need to include risen in there. Then you have to say that mordrem, destroyers, and the as-of-yet-unseen DSD minions are too similar.

Branded don’t have crystals growing on them. Rather, their insides become crystalline – beneath their skin – instantly upon corruption. Icebrood on the other hand have their skin, then muscle, slowly turn to ice.

Furthermore, not all branded were living beings (note: Shatterer).

Their behavior and appearance also differs fairly greatly (sans Branded Ogers/Icebrood Goliath, but that’s because they’re reskins of each other).

@Aaron: If you play a norn, who joins the Priory, and has quaggan or grawl as sympathetic race (not sure if quaggan is an option but I know grawl is), then the personal story is about Sons of Svanir/icebrood either directly or indirectly from start until Claw Island. Especially if you don’t take the “blacked out” storyline.

Angel McCoy.1832:

“Cycle Luminary” is a title that is not bestowed based on awakening order.

Interesting you say that because, to quote each luminary in the first and last instance of Chapter 1 sylvari Personal Story (all three variants):

Aife: I awakened as the sun rose on the first dawn of our race.
Niamh: I awakened at the zenith of the first day of our race.
Kahedins: I awakened as the sun first set on our race.
Malomedies: I awakened on the first night of the sylvari race.

And I recall it being said somewhere that there was 1 Firstborn sylvari born per cycle per day (thus 4 sylvari every 24 hours over 72 hours).

So Malomedies and Kahedins (given your hint, Trahearn’s Dusk) are liars in 7 instances of the Personal Story. Now, Kahedins’ (and Aife’s) lines can be interpreted on the second day but the first sunrise/sunset (implying the first of the cycle was born after the sun’s movement but during the cycle still), but Malomedies’ line (like Niamh’s) is harder to argue out (Melomedies’ more than Niamh’s).

Please feel free to explain this to me, since this is where the problem lies – less the claim that Wynne/Trahearne are first, but that the luminaries proclaim themselves they awoke on the first day of the sylvari race.