Guild Wars 2

Lazy TL;DR for the best things he pointed out in comparison to Direct Damage to Condition Damage.

Raws DPS/Direct Damage
• Needs 3 stats to be effective: Power, Precision, Crit Damage
• Countered by Weakness and Protection
• Enemy dodges = 0 damage done

Condition Damage
• Needs 1 stat to be effective: Condition Damage. This leaves you free to allocate more points into Healing/Vitality/Toughness
• No condition counters condition damage
• Enemy dodges = conditions previously applied keeps on ticking.

I think he’s got a good point. I think condition ticks on dodge rolls are ok though.

Lucentfir.7430:

@Kyon- Most eles will always put 30 in Arcana for the boon duration, Evasive Arcana and the boon pumping with attunement swap(D/D, Staff support), and you use warrior as a comparison even though he doesn’t have access to protection :|

D/D is somewhat considered dead in PVP. TBH Elementalist itself is considered by most people as free kills in tpvp. In wvw, staff eles are mostly played.

It’s usually only D/D who goes for 30 arcana. Scepter eles go for more damage and usually stop at 5 or 10 points in Arcana. Staff eles in zergs usually go for a pure DPS build or a 0/0/20/30/20 support build for cleansing water and boon/stability sharing.

I compared it to a warrior because it’s a High HP high Armor class and the comparison can be done to any medium/heavy armor class. The point is even if you’re a medium or heavy armor class, you will need a lot less of investment in toughness items to get a decent armor stat compared to light armor classes.

Wintel.4873:

It’s true, any other class running a glassy build will auto-lose to a glassy thief. It’s extremely hard to kill something that is stunning/blinding you and stealthing away the moment you have a chance to retaliate.

Thief is the only class that can get away using a glassy build in PvP and still have plenty of survivability.

People need to stop with the braindead reply of “stealth can’t capture points”, it’s not about capturing points, it’s about roaming and causing unbalanced fights. Also having a guaranteed stomp on 5 out of 8 classes with blind field adds further to their effectiveness.

This. The basic roles of Elementalists, Thieves, and Mesmers in tPVP are damage dealers. You spike people, you down them, you either stomp them yourself or leave it to your bunker. You also usually leave capping points to your bunkers so “stealth can’t cap points” is not really a good excuse.

I played 6 straight hours of team queue tPVP earlier as an elementalist. In that 6 hours we’ve only encountered a total of 4 elementalists (1 team ran 1 staff and 1 scepter elementalist). There were a lot less shatter mesmers than there used to be. The most classes played were Warrior, Necro, Engineer and Thief.

As a scepter elementalist, I’d usually get eaten by thieves in seconds if I fail to chain my bursts in my first try. A decent thief will usually disengage with shadowstep right after hitting his initial burst to avoid point blank AoEs. Either way if he fail to initiate, he’ll just lie in stealth as long as possible and wait for another opening.

Lucentfir.7430:

@Kyon: Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

I find this funny, highest armor means nothing unless you’re trying to stack it over 3k, and eles already great access to protection(most D/D eles), lolololololol low CD boon skills(You’re getting the CD reduced on Cantrips anyway upcoming balance patch), even though eles can pump out a lot more boons then a shout guardian already, but okay whatever makes sense.

It means a lot of things. This means you don’t need to invest as many Toughness stat items to achieve that 3k armor mark. Look at warriors, going full zerker with a few Knight/Cavalier pieces will still net them with at least 2.7k armor along with 20k HP. Nerfing Vigor on ele also means a direct nerf to Evasive Arcana not to mention that it is mostly D/D builds that get this trait and they don’t have access to Phoenix.

I probably missed it but from what I’ve read the only cantrip to gets its CD reduced is Armor of Earth (90secs to 75secs for 6 seconds base protection and stability) which was already long overdue. Also, to pump out more boons than guardians requires at least 20 points in Arcana with/or 20 points in Water (soothing disruption).

oZii.2864:

Kyon.9735:

What most people see from this topic is that “My guard got nerfed, nerf Eles too to make it fair”. Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

I also see someone that says that have a Ele but can’t possibly be in depth with it to even bring this up.

If you’re talking about me, I put that up as a sarcastic “mindless post” in return to the mindless statement “my guard got nerfed, nerf eles to make it fair”. Believe me, I play Ele in depth enough not to QQ in every single forum to nerf every single class that kills me.

Lucentfir.7430:

The point is Ele has a lot of traits and utilities that help with endurance regeneration and access to regeneration to essentially have permanent vigor. To why it’s staying the same is what makes me wonder. The nerf to the five point traits would be justifiable if we had other sources of Endurance Regeneration, but for guardians it is the only trait they have that gives them vigor, outside of a utility skill Save Yourselves, and the randomness condi to boon conversion of PoV and CoP(Chill to Vigor).

-edit- I’m not going to go into mesmer because i don’t know enough aside from built one for Spvp phantasm trolling. I do play WvW as well and I just hope vigor changes roll out only effect Spvp, since Guardians already suffer from lack of things.

-

Ele:
Renewing Stamina: 10 points Arcana
Soothing Disruption: 20 points Water plus you need to put in a cantrip (all cantrips have horrible cooldowns)

Guardian:
Vigorous Precision: 5 Points Honor

A lot of people have said this already: You’re getting it for free as you go higher in your trait lines while Eles have to trait for it. Soothing disruption takes 20 points into water and requires you to use a cantrip which basically have a long cooldown.

What most people see from this topic is that “My guard got nerfed, nerf Eles too to make it fair”. Maybe eles should cry “give us the highest armor and low CD boon skills too to make it fair”.

style.6173:

Kyon.9735:

style.6173:

Fortus.6175:

(today we lost 2 top mesmer players due to this, on top of the countless nameless elementalists which plead for fixes long time ago after getting the boot up their …..feet)

If a mesmer loses to a thief, then the mesmer is just plain bad. Mesmer is by far the best 1v1 class.

Let’s see what the 2 top NA pvp mesmers has to say about this. They recently re-rolled to Thieves.

tPvP != to 1v1

I said pvp as in general. BTW you also just gave an opinion without anything to back it up which doesn’t make it a fact.

It’s more than 12 hours now since the first post. I hope devs come and check this out. I can play other games just fine but GW keeps on giving me 5~15 FPS in an idle map.

Introp.8465:

Stx.4857:

Warrior’s have small weaknesses…

Hammer Warriors can be kited fairly well, and GS Warriors lack control.

Even so, Warriors with their typical pvp builds have FAR more in their total package than other professions.

Part of this is due to having the highest base health and armor, while also having the best healing slot in the game. They can go full offense while still having the sustain of your average light/medium bunker. They have excellent condition removal, excellent damage, excellent control, nice active defenses, and stability.

Warrior traits are also much better than most other professions, as has been pointed out several times in this thread. Comparing cleansing ire to ranger condition removal 30 pt trait is a joke. Regaining 360 hp per second from 15 trait points.. really? Thats more regen than my CLERIC ranger gets from regen boon +signet utility slot. Thats more regen than the entire siphoning tree of Necro COMBINED, and the Necro has to be constantly attacking for his to work.

Basically, Warriors dont need to make any trade-offs at all. Want great regen? No need to use healing power gear, thats for lesser professions! Want great damage? Just use mostly zerker gear! No problem, you will still have more HP and armor than most professions… Want the best regen and condition removal in the game? just put 20 pts into that tree there.. screw all those 30 pt investments other professions have to make for lesser results, you are a WARRIOR!

ONE trade-off Warriors have to make is between control and mobility. That is pretty much it. Other professions have to choose between damage and survival, while also having to choose between things like condition removal, mobility, access to stability, control, or sustain. Warriors get it all.

Its 360 per 3 seconds WHEN YOU HAVE FULL ADRENALINE. Not every second, every 3 seconds, so its 120 hp/s if you keep adrenaline full, which u never ever do. Either using it to cleanse conditions or do damage. And no, warriors dont invest into healing, because it scales horribly. Could you be kind and first get your facts straight before panicking on forums? And again, dont compare warrior to ranger and some inferior ranger build tbh. Want to be fair – take all classes and compare them to each other. Every class has its perks and weaknesses. If you want everyone to be the same, why bother having classes to begin with.

Thiefs shadow embrace 10 points into – removes condis in stealth. some thiefs build can spam stealths.
And we can compare thief to a guardian: thief has access to stealth, guardian – no. such imbalance right?( and no, other people placing fields for him is not him having access)

This whining goes again and again and again in 100 threads. this is getting out of hand.

What class does healing scale greatly? And I believe every single class is being compared to Warrior because it is what Anet (and other warriors) consider as balanced.

So I think it’s fair that every single class wants to be on the same level.

Rednik.3809:

Kyon.9735:

Read the earlier posts, it’s pointed there how 20 points Defense is a complete package deal for Warriors thus becoming a mandatory requirement (along with 15 in Discipline) for every decent warrior build.

15 in Discipline is not mandatory at all. Examples: typical sPvP meta condispike/banner (0-10-20-30-10) and one of standard wvw guild melee train builds (0-0-30-30-10, also can be used as sPvP pure bunker).
Fast Hands is very good trait, but you can live without it.

I’d bet a lot more people would have at least 15 points in Discipline than those who don’t. But then again, just read it for the Defense part if that’s how you feel about Fast Hands.

Rednik.3809:

Kyon.9735:

Which it is. Where would you rather put it? It’s not as good as Cleansing Ire to be put on Master Trait unless you’d like to suggest moving Cleansing Ire to GM trait.

Adept is already overloaded with traits. It’s perfectly fine as 15 minor Def trait.
If anything should be changed – it must be grandmaster Strength and Arms talents (and/or 25 minor traits from those lines). Any reliable way to fight with condispam as zerker will end 20+ in def line from being mandatory for all possible pvp builds (and minor regen from AH/adrenaline gain from CI is not that good for zerker builds anyway), since Strength/Arms + Discipline lines have much better synergy for damage builds.
Currently you have no alternative at all – you must take CI even with zerker amulet and glass build or you WILL be shut down immediately by any competent condi user.

Read the earlier posts, it’s pointed there how 20 points Defense is a complete package deal for Warriors thus becoming a mandatory requirement (along with 15 in Discipline) for every decent warrior build.

I used to play at 50~60 FPS in Divinity’s reach using a mix of high~low settings. Now I’m playing at 5~15 FPS. My CPU usage now is always at 10% to 20%.

Windows 7
i7 930
6GB RAM
Radeon HD5850

Buff: Rangers
Nerf: Stealth

Next in line for buffs would be Eles.

I think nerfing stealth would at least give Mesmers and Eles a little more breathing room in the DPS department in PVP. Two “buffs” for one nerf. Rangers need buffs in all aspects of the game. One~three good PVP builds doesn’t mean the class is balanced.

Rednik.3809:

Kyon.9735:

Move Adrenal Health to Major Adept Tier. It’s too good just to be a Minor trait.

No, it will be weaker version of Backpack Regenerator.

Which it is. Where would you rather put it? It’s not as good as Cleansing Ire to be put on Master Trait unless you’d like to suggest moving Cleansing Ire to GM trait.

Xaylin.1860:

Atherakhia.4086:

I understand your logic, I just don’t see it in practice. Adrenaline gain is not that substantial without Burst Mastery. You certainly won’t be blasting a 3 stack every 8 seconds (I don’t run burst mastery). I’m also not convinced the other options for adrenaline gain come close to balancing out what cleansing ire offers, let alone burst mastery. So if you’re serious about removing it, these alternatives would need to be buffed substantially (as they’re certainly not worth GM traits) in their current situation.

So you mean the Adrenaline gain of other traits got to be buffed if it got scrapped from Cleansing Ire? I’m not sure if this is the case. I honestly can’t judge it since I didn’t try it. However, if you buffed the other traits Cleansing Ire would remain more powerful than its alternatives. There would not be any change.

Of course, Burst Mastery could be nerfed as well.
But I guess that this is not what you are looking for.

And again, a cooldown would limit the usefulness of Burst Mastery. You could still use your Bursts as often as before. But you can’t abuse the cooldown and cost reduction of Burst Mastery for condition removal.

Atherakhia.4086:

I also disagree with the longevity issue not being able to be handled via Adrenal Health. A Warrior doesn’t really start hitting the area they’re really OP when until you factor in everything (traits, mobility, utility skills, 3k armor etc). But even with all of these things, the Warrior is still about even with the other top tier classes like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. We both also agree (sort of) that there’s too much in Defense. Moving Adrenal Health is a pretty good hit to the passive regen of the Warrior (removing it from the equation would effectively be the same as a 30% nerf to Healing Signet under max, 20% with 2 bars, and 10% with only 1 which are all more severe than the current 8% they’re already getting).

But where would you move Adrenal Health then? 25? This will make people go x/x/25/x/15-30. No change. The same would happen when it was made a Master Major to compete with Cleansing Ire. People would go x/x/30/x/15-30. No change. If you want to take it out of the equation you would have to get rid of it completely.

Of course, you could move it into another trait line. However, it would have to be at a higher position than 10. Otherwise people could just move 10 points of Defense somewhere else. No real diversity there. Also, Tactics would be a very bad spot because of the HPS Shouts can provide. Moving it to Discpline would not change the meta. Arms and Strength doesn’t fit.

Fact of the matter is 20pts in Defense is mandatory for the class to function right now. It’s over the top when you play the meta builds (which are 0/0/30/10/30 or 0/0/30/30/10 I believe?), but barely enough if you don’t.

But is this actually true? I don’t feel like only those meta builds are strong enough for PvP or WvW. Other builds just happen to be less effective. It’s not like they are unviable.

Atherakhia.4086:

There has to be some way to shave the meta builds down a little (because quite frankly they don’t need as much as people claim) without forcing those who play outside the meta to adopt a meta build (something the overwhelming majority of suggestions in this thread would cause).

That’s what I have been trying. But I can only talk of my personal experience. I don’t claim to know it all. I just enjoy theorycrafting and discussing ideas. People might disagree. And some people might bash me for my ideas. That’s how it is.

Move Adrenal Health to Major Adept Tier. It’s too good just to be a Minor trait.

Not sure if it’s a good idea. It’s like saying to your playerbase “You wanna WvW? Go roll another class aside from Warrrior/Guardian.”

Tei.1704:

Kyon.9735:

Good. Done with comparing the range, now time to take a look at the cool down. For me, I’d love to swap Rush for RTL with its current mechanics anytime. I’d miss RTL’s damage for my S/D burst build though (well, Rush’s damage is almost 2x better) and I’m forced to reserve it from time to time as an escape mechanism and the fact that it misses a lot even when you’re supposed to hit your target and gives you a 40 second cool down.

Not to mention using RTL is a one-way ticket if you don’t hit anything while Rush doesn’t give a kitten if you hit something.

Yeah, the cooldown on rtl is bad. That’s the only noteworthy disadvantage it has compared to rush and most other mobility skills. The damage compared to rush is neutral because rtl deals damage faster and more reliably than rush at the price of lower damage when it does hit. Strengths are countered by weaknesses; that is what balance is.

Rtl got nerfed because it was better than nearly every other mobility skill. Rtl had the same movement per second as rush (it was a strong mobility skill), required pretty much the same investment (just equip the weapon) and it was way harder to counter (only stuns and immobilize will stop it). Rtl was op for the same reasons that warrior regen/sustain is op, which you had no problem pointing out. There are always people that ignore obviously op stuff their class has, but they have no problem identifying op things on other classes. The 40 second cooldown is arguably too much. Yes, anet is clearly biased for not nerfing healing signet more harshly when it has similar balance issues to rtl. Maybe you would have preferred a nerf to something other than cooldown, but there shouldn’t be any questions about why some kind of nerf was needed.

It is being compared to Rush because it’s the closest skill similar to it out of all mobility skills in the game.

If you ask me, I’d personally like to have it at 20/25~30s CD for the things you’ve pointed out. The real reason why people say that Rush is better is because of the cooldown differences. RTL’s pros does not give justice for its cons.

Perplexity Runes? Interrupt + the proc on hit? Eles don’t have natural access to confusion.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Perplexity

4th bonus applies 3 stacks then 6th bonus applies 5 stacks so a total of 8 stacks.

There’s a reason why nobody uses eles anymore no matter how “OP” people claim them to be. S/D burst eles are the real zerkers of the game. Kill fast and die fast. The build has no natural survivability like clones and stealth nor does it have HP and Armor to make up for it.

We can all agree that the burst can’t be telegraphed easily but if you do, he’ll have to wait a long time to be able to burst someone again. What you need to do is to initiate before they do.

Another reason why you don’t see eles in sPVP are on the other threads: Thieves. The other thread is full of good information (and some bad) so check it out.

BTW I still believe that Thief is not OP, their stealth mechanic is.

runeblade.7514:

Rangers can use reveal on mesmer.

runeblade.7514:

Then, elementalist’s counter will be immobilize and aoe teleports like blink and lightning flash.

You stated it yourself. Only 1 certain class can counter a mesmer’s #2 while many classes have access to immobilize and aoe teleports to counter Vapor Form. Immobilize and blinks are currently the counter for vapor form.

Are you sure you should be aiming to nerf Elementalists’ Vapor Form which has many counters across all classes instead of mesmer’s #2 which you stated that can only be countered by Rangers?

I’m not saying that Mesmer #2 should be nerfed but I think you got your priorities wrong.

Fuzzion.2504:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I have to agree, our elites are rather lacklustre (not including FGS) But i am curious, doing 6-10k Crit damage using the Meteor Storm into Tornado – what would the same skill do without using Tornado? But yes, slightly off topic.

In my view:

Lightening Flash – Decent skill, mostly used to get Churning Earth off, will only work once due to the person will know right after and be able to avoid it most of the time. I do question the extra 10second cool down for the added little damage.

Armour of Earth – Even with the cool down reduction i find it rather weak. I think what would help would having it so that it grants extra Toughness for the duration as well, the boons can be easily removed by several classes.

Cleansing Fire – Decent condition removal, the Burning is rather weak and the cool down is rather high. Unless built for condition damage it is rather weak and does that justify such a high cool down? In my opinion no.

Mist Form – Rather high cool down, low duration i think it should remove ALL of – stuns, cripple, Chill, , Immobilize

That is it, none of them are really “wow, that is a must have skill” You take Armour of Earth or Mist Form because in most cases you know that you need defence

Again it depends on traits and playstyle. I prefer offensive use of said spells.

I agree. I almost exclusively use Lightning Flash to chain my Scepter bursts. On D/D though I reserve it as an escape mechanism unless I’m planning to land Churning Earth. The damage is decent (it’s actually stronger than Arcane Blast) but not decent enough to warrant the 40s CD IMO.

I think they should either reduce the cool down or return the stun break on it. Or maybe both would be much better.

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Adrenal health is already useless since warriors dont sit on their adrenaline. I would gladly exchange it with a decent minor trait.

Adrenal Health is useless? Many people will beg to differ. I know it needs at least 2 levels of adrenaline to synergize well with Healing Signet but it gives warriors a win-win situation if they go for Cleansing Ire.

You sit with your adrenaline then you get additional Sustain. You spend your adrenaline then you get more cleanse. Everybody know how easy it is to build Adrenaline.

Ok, its not totally useless. Lets call it borderline useless.
Why would you even sit on your adrenaline and not make liberal use of cleansing ire with all the conditions flying around?

Not because we are in the condi meta means that you will always have conditions that you will want to remove immediately. Then again I don’t think it’s as good as Cleansing Ire’s so maybe it should go down to Adept Tier.

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Adrenal health is already useless since warriors dont sit on their adrenaline. I would gladly exchange it with a decent minor trait.

Adrenal Health is useless? Many people will beg to differ. I know it needs at least 2 levels of adrenaline to synergize well with Healing Signet but it gives warriors a win-win situation if they go for Cleansing Ire.

You sit with your adrenaline then you get additional Sustain. You spend your adrenaline then you get more cleanse. Everybody know how easy it is to build Adrenaline.

@Harper

The reason Fast Hands will be pushed down to 10 points is because it should go in conjunction with Adrenal Health’s move as a Major Trait. Warriors can’t get Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire with just mere 20 points anymore so they get to spend less for Fast Hands and get to spend more to defense if they still want to pursue getting all 3 traits.

Sin Stonestrike.9326:

Hooma, Harper, DuranArgith…. thank you for putting out some very clear and constructive thoughts on the defense tree (helps little ole’ me who doesn’t have a warrior and can’t grasp the concept as fast).

So…… has anyone suggested that Cleansing Ire be switched with Spiked Armor to become a grandmaster major trait? Wouldn’t this solve the supposed problem of an easy 20 into the trait tree and make the warrior actually build for 30 before chosing either the condition cleanse OR the low hp EP proc (kinda like ranger’s WS line)?

Please don’t shred my idea …. I just can’t judge very well what this would do for the profession so could you more experienced warriors tell me?

I think it would be better if they put Adrenal Health as either an Adept or Master trait. Cleansing Ire should stay at Master tier. That way Warriors get to choose 2 out of 3 if they’re only willing to spend 20 points. If they want to pursue all 3, they’d need to spend 10 more points. Moving Fast Hands to Adept Tier should go with this so they get to refund 5 trait points and look to move 5 more points from somewhere to get all 3 defense traits back.

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.

And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.

P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.

I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.

I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".

Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.

That’s how i thought it was – it made very little sense and got me both angry and confused to see you going on about something that’s not really the issue.

The defense tree is strong – I’ll give you that – but without it a feel warriors are just not a viable class in sPVP or WvW.

Try the following – go into sPVP and try to make the best build you can without investing into the defense tree.

Protip : you can’t.

That’s why they made healing signet the way it is now – they tried to promote builds that weren’t going to invest that much into that defense tree – to give non-defense oriented warriors a chance to stay in the game and deal out some damage.

Currently a warrior that doesn’t spec in that trait line is just a free kill.
And that says a lot about a class that people are calling " OP " and " best class ".

Yes, I was wondering why you kept pushing the issue with Warrior’s Sprint when I was focusing on Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire. Turns out I was calling the “Defense” trait as “Discipline” instead.

And yes, Warriors need the Defense Line but they’re getting too much for just 20 points. What I think that can fix it is change Adrenal Health from a Minor trait to a Major trait. They should put it at either Adept or Master trait so Warriors will carefully choose between Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire if they only plan to invest 20 points.

The same goes for Fast Hands. It’s like a necessity for warriors to be really versatile but I believe Fast Hands is too strong to be just a Minor trait. My suggestion is to make it an Adept Trait so Warriors who don’t plan on investing that much in Discipline trait can get it for less and those who plans on investing more will now have to Choose it and not get it free.

I don’t really agree with your fast hands idea.
I see what you’re trying to do when you say move adrenal health but I feel people are only looking at one side of the coin.

Example : defense tree useless trait – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thick_Skin

How about we fix some of these as well?

Care to elaborate why you don’t agree with Fast Hands changes? Warriors have been saying that it should be an Adept Minor trait (they only want to spend 5 trait points for it) but in reality it is too strong to be a Minor trait. So instead of spending 15 points for it, you get to have it for 10. I know, people don’t like to spend for something that used to be a “Freebie”.

Everybody knows every single class can link broken and more useless traits so let’s keep the conversation at Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire and how they’re currently too strong just for 20 points. One broken trait does not make it a reason to make another trait stronger than what it has to be.

style.6173:

Fortus.6175:

(today we lost 2 top mesmer players due to this, on top of the countless nameless elementalists which plead for fixes long time ago after getting the boot up their …..feet)

If a mesmer loses to a thief, then the mesmer is just plain bad. Mesmer is by far the best 1v1 class.

Let’s see what the 2 top NA pvp mesmers has to say about this. They recently re-rolled to Thieves.

Xillllix.3485:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Xillllix.3485:

Huh no please. I crit 2k with lightning Flash and I use it in burst with air attunement for a 4k+ crit potential. It doesn’t do “minor” damage. In other words, you may use it as a get away card, but I use it for offensive – often with Fire 4 (staff) combo.

You have to BUILD for it to do that damage, that is fine. I see no problem with making something stronger when it COSTS you doing so. 2k damage every 40 seconds….Oh SO much damage!

What do you mean every 40 seconds? It’s more like every 4-5 seconds with Fresh Air.

The ele isn’t in such a bad state seriously. Mine is running around with 20k hp (21500+ with guard defense stacks ) and meteors crit between 6-10k with tornado, and I have about 1700 toughness. A single well placed meteor shower will globally do over 50k dmg agains’t people who fail to dodge, I made the sum out of my combat log yesterday.

We just needs a few buffs to the useless traits.

Lightning Flash is the Blink Skill. Lightning Strike is Scepter Air Attunement #2 skill.

D/D survivability is broken. Scepter and Staff are somewhat OK but needs to fix a few spells especially Auto Attacks. Offhand Focus needs a lot of work.

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.

And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.

P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.

I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.

I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".

Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.

That’s how i thought it was – it made very little sense and got me both angry and confused to see you going on about something that’s not really the issue.

The defense tree is strong – I’ll give you that – but without it a feel warriors are just not a viable class in sPVP or WvW.

Try the following – go into sPVP and try to make the best build you can without investing into the defense tree.

Protip : you can’t.

That’s why they made healing signet the way it is now – they tried to promote builds that weren’t going to invest that much into that defense tree – to give non-defense oriented warriors a chance to stay in the game and deal out some damage.

Currently a warrior that doesn’t spec in that trait line is just a free kill.
And that says a lot about a class that people are calling " OP " and " best class ".

Yes, I was wondering why you kept pushing the issue with Warrior’s Sprint when I was focusing on Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire. Turns out I was calling the “Defense” trait as “Discipline” instead.

And yes, Warriors need the Defense Line but they’re getting too much for just 20 points. What I think that can fix it is change Adrenal Health from a Minor trait to a Major trait. They should put it at either Adept or Master trait so Warriors will carefully choose between Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire if they only plan to invest 20 points.

The same goes for Fast Hands. It’s like a necessity for warriors to be really versatile but I believe Fast Hands is too strong to be just a Minor trait. My suggestion is to make it an Adept Trait so Warriors who don’t plan on investing that much in Discipline trait can get it for less and those who plans on investing more will now have to Choose it and not get it free.

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.

And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.

P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.

I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.

I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".

Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.

Ant.3415:

I play both warrior and ele (mostly D/D) and I definitely prefer RTL as it is (though I QQ’d when it was nerfed) over Rush because Rush can get snared and has a pause for hit. Rush feels clunky and has really weird turning/tracking, whereas RTL seems faster and more crisp.

Sort of unrelated but I feel they need to buff the vitality of ele to make up for their inability to get out of situations they used to be able to more often.

As far as Healing Signet (HS) goes, those of you who QQ about this don’t realize that Warriors have 3 or 4 types of regeneration that help them out, it’s not just this one. HS heals for what, 480hps or something, and yes it’s passive, but they also have Adrenal Health, Regeneration (boon), and some specs carry banner regeneration (which gimps dps). All of which are passive, and they basically get no active heal with this build.

I’m sure it seems OP but play one and you’ll find the weaknesses (poison).

Don’t forget that while Ele’s have a signet too, they also have water attunement (active heals + regen + condi clear) and earth (stability and/or protection).

This is kind of off topic.

I think the real discussion here is not about how Thief is OP but rather how a Thief can do better in anything a Mesmer and Elementalist ever did.

Thief is not OP (but I agree that stealth is) but rather Mesmer (Aside from some PU builds) and Elementalist are underpowered.

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

No, it’s not because I don’t like it but rather don’t you find it true that warriors are getting a lot just for putting in a few trait points? I guess your hostility means I hit a spot. And what’s more, this kind of argument will be more fruitful than those “L2P issues” excuses which will get you nowhere. The reasoning was thoroughly explained, you need to read it again.

I have no problems with warriors having both warriors sprint and fast hands or having all 3 of Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire as long as they fairly invest for it.

But seriously that kind of attitude will get you nowhere. You’re putting words into my mouth and your sarcasm failed miserably.

See – you’re assuming. It’s not that you hit a spot – the problem is that you missed it by so much it actually hurts.
Warrior’s sprint and fast hands weren’t an issue since the game was launched but lately ANYTHING about the warrior has been suggested to be godawful OP and terribly strong.
Because the overall flavor of the forums this month has been that warriors are the punching bag of all players that are more or less informed but mostly just angry.
I’ve seen objective and fair arguments made. I’ve seen threads that just went " nerf warrior because i’m mad ". I’ve pretty much read it all.

No – i don’t believe you’re right – you’re saying that they should invest " fairly" but exactly what is and what is not a fair investment isn’t really up to you.

Here’s a thought – warriors had sprint and fast hands before other changes were made and nobody complained about that particular trait investment.

Overall the whole " nerf warrior " phenomenon is happening because too many bads are dying at the hands of a high prevalence profession. And they’re clogging the forums with negative QQ about how the big bad warriors clobbered them instead of maybe considering what’s wrong with their own particular classes if they feel so underpowered.

A 10/10 warrior player will have a VERY hard time and most likely lose to a 10/10 player of other classes.

Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.

And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.

P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Defense trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.

BlackBeard.2873:

Fresh earth and fresh water probably won’t happen b/c that would be a LOT of sustain for an ele, getting MORE access to prot or the condi. cleanse/heal/regen in water.

This.

On the good side though, you can only choose 1 “Fresh Trait” because you’ll need at least 20 points in Arcana for Elemental Attunement if you want the boons. But imagine having unlimited heals and condi cleanse, it would be too game breaking of a “buff” even for one of the most broken class.

Tei.1704:

Kyon.9735:

You should look both at the upside and the downside.

RTL ignores chill and cripple but doesn’t get any range bonus from swiftness. Rush is affected by chill and cripple but gets affected by swiftness.

That’s such a small downside though. At a certain point, advantages and disadvantages are too small to be worth mentioning. The fact that you can’t get an additional 300 range is more than compensated for by never losing 600+ range. Plus, the current condition meta makes it an even better trade. You’re very likely to be snared and they are less likely to be the conditions removed.

Good. Done with comparing the range, now time to take a look at the cool down. For me, I’d love to swap Rush for RTL with its current mechanics anytime. I’d miss RTL’s damage for my S/D burst build though (well, Rush’s damage is almost 2x better) and I’m forced to reserve it from time to time as an escape mechanism and the fact that it misses a lot even when you’re supposed to hit your target and gives you a 40 second cool down.

Not to mention using RTL is a one-way ticket if you don’t hit anything while Rush doesn’t give a kitten if you hit something.

havoc.6814:

DuranArgith.1354:

phaeris.7604:

DuranArgith.1354:

F1 skills do not generate adrenaline unless you have the furious trait and you crit.
Anet also believed this was the case and nerfed the longbow without any reason.

Also, no D/D eles are not melee. D/D ele is range 300, melee weapons are range 130.

Warriors only have 1 semi viable ranged weapon, the longbow. Rifle is…unfortunate:(

And yes, while other classes can go melee as well, its the warrior that defines the melee playstyle.

Cleansing ire, that is the source of your adrenal regen. Because you’re pretty much constantly being hit in a fight adrenaline just fills right back up. I’ve played warrior enough to understand adrenal mechanics and how easy and quickly the bar refills.

Are you really saying that 300 range isn’t melee range? Try and maintain 300 distance from another ‘melee’ player, as in theory you shouldn’t get hit at all, record it and come back. Should be easy since 300 is such a huge distance in this game apparently.

If you’re saying being able to do 15kcrits at 1200+ range every 7 seconds or so is unfortunate, then you’ve not played any other classes have you. I’m sure being able to instakill players in the time it takes for a full adrenal must really be hard going.

If you ever, ever, ever get hit by killshot, one on one or a small skirmish, the problem is the player, not the skill. Block it, reflect it, aegis, blind it, you know when its coming because a giant red circle appears below your character which means youre the target of a channeled skill. It really cant get more obvious than that. And even if the burst is great, it doesn’t amount to the other 5 bad skills of the rifle. Even longbow outdps the rifle in the long run. The only use rifle has is against stealth thieves, but most warriors wont even carry a rifle to combat one single class.

Now, I sure wish I had that extra 170 range on my melee attacks, every warrior would give his right leg for it, because if you play melee long enough you would know how much of an advantage that would give you. Im guessing you never played melee as you claim, if you think that those extra units are nothing.

Yes, cleansing ire produces most of the adrenaline, but the conversation is about adrenal health, and like I said, warriors DO NOT sit on their adrenaline. They use it as much as possible which makes adrenal give only a fraction of the regen.

This. D/D eles are not melee range. The have more than twice the range of a melee character. That is more than significant – it is huge. Stop calling D/D Ele’s melee, it’s ridiculous. Lol at the Killshot rant; that totally destroys your credibility.

The post is actually about warrior weaknesses, and you are all way off-topic. Try to get it together….

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elementalist

Yet Anet themselves consider Elementalist Main Hand Dagger “Close Range”.

But I agree, no need for the Kill Shot QQ. It’ll just end up to another L2P issue which will never get resolved.

WhiteRose.6934:

Black Box.9312:

Harper.4173:

Also – regarding warrior’s weakness – do people really not see the issue with lack of specialization efficiency?

Again, that is completely irrelevant. The issue is NOT that warriors are better at specializing, but that they are better off because they can have enough of everything without being REQUIRED to specialize.

Exactly. Specializing implies the warrior had to give something up to be better at one thing. When in fact, the warrior gives up nothing to be better at everything.

As I previously mentioned, yes I agree, some Warrior trait lines is a package deal. You can get the best of both worlds without “investing” a lot to it which is not the same as other classes. To be the Jack-Of-All-Trades (Good at everything, best at nothing) is not the same as the Alpha Male.

Harper.4173:

Kyon.9735:

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

I already posted this.

To obtain something, something of equal value must be lost. It’s clear that Warriors are getting more than what they give. Let’s not talk about how “easy” it is to dodge “easily telegraphed moves” and put in L2P issues as an excuse.

10 points Defense Dogged March – 3 sec regen, 33% reduction to soft CCs
15 points Defense Adrenal Health – Level 3 Adrenaline is 360 HP healed
15 points Fast Hands – 5 second weapon swap cool down

So the basic needs of a warrior is X/X/15/X/15 which leaves them 40 points to play with.

These traits don’t deserve to be in Adept traits nor to be Minor traits because they’re too strong. Make warriors actually trait for these. They have to choose what they get, not get all these strong traits as “freebies” because they’re Minor traits.

Your 3 points:
Dogged march: warrior is a melee, means he needs the added movement impairment resistance so he isn’t kited continuously. The real offender is lemongrass + melandru that all other classes can use anyway, dont blame the warrior for that.

Adrenal health. The healing is per 3 seconds and assuming you have full adrenaline to get the effect. Current Meta is spending your adrenaline as soon as you have it so you trigger cleansing ire and set up a burst, not to sit on it. This trait is mostly useless in battle.

fast hands. not only this ability shouldnt even require 15 points, general consensus is it should have been integrated in the warrior class from the beginning, as a class feature.
At the very least it should only require 5 points and not 15.

What I am suggesting is to make the Minor traits into Major traits as they are too good just to be “freebies” when you go for higher traits. Warriors basically get a really good package by spending small trait points.

With 20 points into discipline, you can get a 33% reduction to soft CCs, more HP sustain (which by the way synergizes very well with Healing signet), and condition removal. The fact is regardless if you use your adrenaline or not, it’s still a win-win situation. If you don’t use it you regenerate HP, if you use it you cleanse conditions.

As for Fast Hands, what I am saying is that it’s too good to be a freebie. I don’t mind if they make it an adept trait as long as it is a Major trait. Warriors usually pair it with Warrior’s Sprint.

TL;DR – Warriors need to choose their traits. Make Adrenal Health either an Adept or Master Major trait so Warriors can’t have all 3 (Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Adrenal Health). Make Fast Hands a Major Adept trait. Make them choose, Fast Hands or another trait (which is usually warrior’s sprint).

Your post summed up : " 15 points into a trait line is a freebie". " warriors should have it tougher because i don’t like it, make them choose ".

How is having both warrior’s sprint and fast hands a problem now?

Also – regarding warrior’s weakness – do people really not see the issue with lack of specialization efficiency?

No, it’s not because I don’t like it but rather don’t you find it true that warriors are getting a lot just for putting in a few trait points? I guess your hostility means I hit a spot. And what’s more, this kind of argument will be more fruitful than those “L2P issues” excuses which will get you nowhere. The reasoning was thoroughly explained, you need to read it again.

I have no problems with warriors having both warriors sprint and fast hands or having all 3 of Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire as long as they fairly invest for it.

But seriously that kind of attitude will get you nowhere. You’re putting words into my mouth and your sarcasm failed miserably.

Tei.1704:

16 replies and nobody seems to have mentioned that rtl ignores every snare besides immobilize. Rush gets shutdown by cripple and chill, which were always easy to spam and stack. The nerf was still too harsh and biased, but there was a legitimate reason for nerfing rtl and no other mobility skill. Even if you only use it to run away, it’s still one of the most reliable short-term skills for that. Rush is bad for attacking because the damage is delayed after you reach your target. I honestly wouldn’t trade rtl for rush.

You should look both at the upside and the downside.

RTL ignores chill and cripple but doesn’t get any range bonus from swiftness. Rush is affected by chill and cripple but gets affected by swiftness.

DuranArgith.1354:

Kyon.9735:

I already posted this.

To obtain something, something of equal value must be lost. It’s clear that Warriors are getting more than what they give. Let’s not talk about how “easy” it is to dodge “easily telegraphed moves” and put in L2P issues as an excuse.

10 points Defense Dogged March – 3 sec regen, 33% reduction to soft CCs
15 points Defense Adrenal Health – Level 3 Adrenaline is 360 HP healed
15 points Fast Hands – 5 second weapon swap cool down

So the basic needs of a warrior is X/X/15/X/15 which leaves them 40 points to play with.

These traits don’t deserve to be in Adept traits nor to be Minor traits because they’re too strong. Make warriors actually trait for these. They have to choose what they get, not get all these strong traits as “freebies” because they’re Minor traits.

Your 3 points:
Dogged march: warrior is a melee, means he needs the added movement impairment resistance so he isn’t kited continuously. The real offender is lemongrass + melandru that all other classes can use anyway, dont blame the warrior for that.

Adrenal health. The healing is per 3 seconds and assuming you have full adrenaline to get the effect. Current Meta is spending your adrenaline as soon as you have it so you trigger cleansing ire and set up a burst, not to sit on it. This trait is mostly useless in battle.

fast hands. not only this ability shouldnt even require 15 points, general consensus is it should have been integrated in the warrior class from the beginning, as a class feature.
At the very least it should only require 5 points and not 15.

What I am suggesting is to make the Minor traits into Major traits as they are too good just to be “freebies” when you go for higher traits. Warriors basically get a really good package by spending small trait points.

With 20 points into discipline, you can get a 33% reduction to soft CCs, more HP sustain (which by the way synergizes very well with Healing signet), and condition removal. The fact is regardless if you use your adrenaline or not, it’s still a win-win situation. If you don’t use it you regenerate HP, if you use it you cleanse conditions.

As for Fast Hands, what I am saying is that it’s too good to be a freebie. I don’t mind if they make it an adept trait as long as it is a Major trait. Warriors usually pair it with Warrior’s Sprint.

TL;DR – Warriors need to choose their traits. Make Adrenal Health either an Adept or Master Major trait so Warriors can’t have all 3 (Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Adrenal Health). Make Fast Hands a Major Adept trait. Make them choose, Fast Hands or another trait (which is usually warrior’s sprint).

Carpboy.7145:

corin.1298:

Carpboy.7145:

corin.1298:

havoc.6814:

corin.1298:

havoc.6814:

Failed to a Kill Shot. So pro….

I feel like you are very biased about warriors. Hey, I play one too, it was my first toon, but don’t act like kill shot is impossible to hit. When I played greatsword/rifle for fun, it really was not hard to land kill shots if you weren’t being focused. However, mine never hit that hard. This is way out of line.

It’s not out of line. It takes a lot of specialized building to reach those numbers – the warrior sacrifices a lot to get there. The skill has an incredible telegraph, and the warrior is a sitting duck while channelling it. I don’t like the skill either, because every warrior I’ve seen building for it is terrible and easily slaughtered.

I’ve actually been hit by it also, but I just laughed at myself for not seeing it, because it is really telegraphed, what with the long wind up, the going down on one knee, the neon sign over the warriors head, etc. Coming here to QQ about it is kinda over the top.

I’m not at all biased about warriors. I just hate all of the troll posts from people who cry nerf to things that are easily avoided just because they don’t understand how to fight the profession. I main a warrior, but I also have all of the other professions but necro and ele (couldn’t talk my self into buying more character slots since having lots of alts is punishing in this game). I kill warriors easily on thief, mesmer, and engineer. Really easily. Super easily. Ranger not so much, but that’s because I suck really bad on my ranger.

Mabye this is because I was playing an ele, and I have to work my rear end off just to survive(being this was a group fight). He saw that my endurance was gone, and I didn’t have my air 4(reflect projectiles) available. I’m not really complaining about the warrior necessarily, but the fact that this can happen.

Wait what? Your mad a character geared and built for full out damage was able to one shot another squishy player after having seen him use his reflects and evades? Its called counter play.

Really? So why can’t I one shot him in the same circumstance?

Eles have the fastest untelegraphed burst in the game. You’ve gotta have quick fingers, but you can easily burst someone down in less than the time it takes the warrior to kneel down and cast kill shot. Also churning earth and fire grab can and do oneshot people.

In PVP? I don’t think so.

But yeah, that warrior traited to be glassy. He kills you with one hit in 3 seconds, you can kill him with 5 skills in 3 seconds as a burst scepter elementalist.

Elementalist burst is not about hitting 1 very strong spell/skill but rather chaining soft~hard hitting spells. Just to be fair, it doesn’t work the same way in WvW though.

I didn’t really play a lot of MMORPGs but I’m really happy about the battle mage theme (aka D/D ele).

I also prefer Mist Form over Armor of Earth when stomping. You can easily get boon corrupted or get bursted because everybody knows that eles are still squishy as hell even with protection.

Black Box.9312:

Wintel.4873:

D/D is getting multiple buffs here but sadly I seriously hate D/D, especially in SPvP. Any ranged build can basically troll you by sitting out of reach and taking pot-shots and there is nothing you can do about it.
You’re not a thief so you can’t just stealth/leap to them, you’re not a mesmer so you can’t send waves of clones + stealth or range them back…you’re just an Ele with 40sec Lightning Flash (yay for cantrips) and 40 sec RTL.

I feel after the Ele changes we’re going to see people bottlenecked into Water+Arcana + Cantrip builds even more, but I guess as far as ANet is concerned it’s progress.

If you take Resto Signet you sacrifice condi cleanse, so any Resto Signet build that DOESN’T dip at least 20-30 points into Water is going to get eaten alive by condis. Ether Renewal is just far too necessary given how fast Ele health goes up and down, constantly teetering on the edge of death.

Between lightning flash (32 sec cd on a cantrip build), RTL (20 sec cd when you hit someone, which should be the goal when fighting a ranged enemy), magnetic leap, and even burning speed, d/d ele has enough gap closers to make things work IMO. The only scenario I can think of when you wouldn’t be utilizing these tools would be if you were trying to bunker a point, but the fact is that d/d ele simply doesn’t fit a bunker role anymore. That’s fine though, because they’re able to make up for it in other ways, and the upcoming patch will help make them more viable.

The problem still exists with these unreliable gap closers. RTL is a 50/50 situation even if you’re sure to hit your target because of how broken it is with bugs. Magnetic grasp/leap will be totally useless unless you can hit magnetic grasp. This leaves you with just Burning Speed and Lightning Flash as your real reliable gap closers.

I’ve been playing D/D and staff most of my ele’s game time in all aspects of the game. I only recently picked up Scepter last week and I’m surprised how it makes D/D looks like pure crap in sPVP. I can even say that Scepter can give better survivability than main hand dagger ever did because of the access to blinds.

TL;DR Yes I agree with you the buff is needed especially to Burning Speed. Now if we can only get some access to more blinds or evades with Main Hand Dagger..

I already posted this.

To obtain something, something of equal value must be lost. It’s clear that Warriors are getting more than what they give. Let’s not talk about how “easy” it is to dodge “easily telegraphed moves” and put in L2P issues as an excuse.

10 points Defense Dogged March – 3 sec regen, 33% reduction to soft CCs
15 points Defense Adrenal Health – Level 3 Adrenaline is 360 HP healed
15 points Fast Hands – 5 second weapon swap cool down

So the basic needs of a warrior is X/X/15/X/15 which leaves them 40 points to play with.

These traits don’t deserve to be in Adept traits nor to be Minor traits because they’re too strong. Make warriors actually trait for these. They have to choose what they get, not get all these strong traits as “freebies” because they’re Minor traits.

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

RtL is better than rush.

Let’s swap then (:

Bunschii.2918:

Cantrips gives 3 stacks of might with spell slinger

Honest mistake. I didn’t even know that existed because I don’t even bother looking at the Fire trait line anymore. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit it and give a more appropriate resonse.

LCV.7245:

I’m a mesmer player who has been getting into wvw ele recently and here’s my take on the whole thing:

Elementalists have access to 20 weapons skills at a time, all of which are extraordinarily diverse and generally on respectably low cool downs (before any traits). Because of this, they can generally fulfill most build requirements with just weapon choices without compromising on situational needs. That is, what would generally take other classes both weapon and utility skills can generally be done with just ele’s weapon skills. This means the utility skills can’t follow suit as the other classes do, sparing engineer.
It’s important to note that ele’s have insane access to boon through their utility skills and attunements but choosing a few traits. Because of this, the utility skills become less of the standard “utility” skill and more of a source of specific boons, like gaining might when using a cantrip. This means the the individual skills, by necessity, are less “powerful”.
Consider the other option, where the cooldowns on all cantrips were reduced and their numbers all enhanced. In this case, no one would play anything but ele, the meta game would likely degrade.

As an example, I’d like to compare the mesmer’s blink with the ele’s blink cantrip. For the mesmer, blink is usually a necessary skill, as battlefield movement is essential to success. It’s on a similar cooldown to that of the ele, but it has a significantly longer range. Naturally, one would assume this means that the mesmer has more in-combat mobility than an elementalist. Unfortunately, this is incorrect. In addition to this blink, ele’s have access to a plethora of swiftness spells and a variety of “dashes”, if you will.

So, back to the question at hand, why are ele utility skills so “bad”. My short answer is, because it’s necessary. Buffing these skills in any significant way would do more than just give the ele a small advantage, it would elevate them beyond any other profession. In my opinion, it would completely destroy any meta.

My suggestion with the ele utility skills would be to view them as boon sources or “get out of jail free” cards, like mist for and earth armor. If you find yourself outnumbered, just become vapor and swiftness or dash away. If you see a loner you want to gank, then drop all your cantrips and surprise him with your stacks of might.

I’m curious to see how this conversation develops. I believe that everyone in here who says that ele utilities are “underpowered” or “useless” has a clear misunderstanding of the purpose.

1 – If an elementalist only needs weapon skills to do something that other classes require both weapon and utility skills, how come eles are the most underpowered class along with rangers even with utility skills available?

2 – Edited, thanks to Bunschii. I wouldn’t pop defensive cantrips with high cooldown for the sake of stacking might. Would you?

3 – An elementalist’s blink has damage, a 40 second cool down and is not a stun breaker. A mesmer’s blink has no damage, 30 second cool down, and is a stun breaker.

4 – These “dashes” you speak of comes from different weapon and as everybody knows, elementalists can only use 1 weapon set. On a side note, elementalists have “in-combat mobility” because they don’t have access to a plethora of stealth and clones nor do they have high HP and armor. Warriors and Thieves has more mobility considering they either have High HP/Armor or stealth.

5 – Nobody considers Mist Form and Armor of Earth as “get out of jail cards” like you claim. Mist form or Armor of Earth won’t get you out of combat, mobility, or give you max HP. If you get away from combat just by popping Mist Form or Armor of Earth, you better stop playing PVE because players in PVP/WVW won’t stop chasing you until you go down.

I believe that everyone in here who says that ele utilities are “underpowered” or “useless” has a clear misunderstanding of the purpose.

Not to be rude but base from your statement, I think you also have a clear misunderstanding of how elementalist skills work in general.

Siobhan.3582:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Siobhan.3582:

Sorry but if you think conjures are weak, you have never played this class.

Sorry but because YOU dont think they are weak, doesnt mean everyone thinks that way.

So you are saying that hammer and greatsword conjures are bad? They are weak? honestly if you can say that with a straight face, you have not played this class at any real level.

You can slot those two and get amazing results in all 3 aspects of the game.

Conjures are more than decent (IMO they’re in a good spot aside from the 15 base charges) in PVE, but not in the PVP/WvW aspect of the game.

I don’t even remember when was the last time I saw someone use Conjures in PvP/WvW aside from FGS which was mainly used for running away on a 180s cooldown.

@topic
Cantrips used to synergize well with Soothing Disruption which gave eles perma Regen and Vigor before it was nerfed.

Another thing is that all cantrips used to be stun breakers and most builds used to have 3 cantrips. If you use them at the right time, an ele can be invincible in 1v1s or more depending on the skill cap of your opponents.

Let’s not talk about the L2P issues with telegraphing a class’ movement because that kind of talk will get us nowhere. Let’s look at their Trait Lines.

10 points Defense Dogged March – 3 sec regen, 33% reduction to soft CCs
15 points Defense Adrenal Health – Level 3 Adrenaline is 360 HP healed
15 points Fast Hands – 5 second weapon swap cool down

To obtain something, something of equal value must be lost. In this case, warriors get more than what they give. These should be at least a Master trait, 2 of them are even Minor traits.

Make Dogged March a Master trait to put it on the same level as elementalist and engineer. Some people might disagree because it’s already stronger than the other class’ skill which gives the same effect MINUS the regen but I think Anet can buff the regen to 4~5 seconds with a 10/15 second ICD.

Adrenal Health – Remove it from Master Minor trait line and put it to Master trait line. Make warriors trait for this strong trait. It should not be a “freebie” because it’s too strong to be a “freebie” Master Minor trait.

Fast Hands – Same idea as adrenal health. This trait is too strong to be a Minor trait.

The basic old immortal D/D is like ozii said, weapons and armors are full PTV, trinkets are full clerics, and boon duration runes. You might not even need food. But 1 thing that made them truly immortal is the skill Ride the Lightning.

You’ll have a low attack (2700~2800 if i remember correctly), low crit damage, and low crit chance, but you can win because you outlast your opponents. You don’t lose because you can simply run away as well.

I tried doing the same build in this current meta and it was a big failure. People know how to counter D/D eles now so having such a low DPS won’t cut it.

Zuik.7158:

Signet of Restoration: Removed the split on this skill so that the signet passive heal amount will be increased in PvP to match the current PvE amount. – Clearly overpowered. Now the class actually has a heal that is almost as good as other classes.

So the class doesn’t have any rights to get heals as good as other classes do? Even with the buff, we still don’t know if people would actually use it again because in this condi meta right now, Ether Renewal is the ideal heal. Maybe let’s wait 1-2 weeks after the patch comes through and reassess it after that.

Zuik.7158:

Armor of Earth: Reduced recharge from 90 seconds to 75 seconds. – They obviously didn’t take into consideration the thief initiative pool. If elementalists run both the utility and the trait for proc that means a thief might only have enough initiative to steal the first protection and stability and will have to wait a few more seconds.

It’s pretty much the same right now except elementalists can have it activated again faster. If you’re only gonna make an argument for thieves, I think a good thief should know how and when to burst. Why would you burst someone with Armor of Earth up when you can just lie in stealth and wait for 6 seconds (not counting boon duration).

Zuik.7158:

Water Trident: Added 3 seconds of regeneration to up to 5 allies in the radius. Don’t even get me started on this. Why should this class get all the regen? I mean if they take the water grandmaster trait this means they can remove another condition from their group after waiting 5 seconds from elemental attunement. Seriously overlooked, this class has enough sustain already and does not deserve it.

Without traiting 30 points into Water line and traiting for Cleansing water, 3 seconds of regeneration looks useless. Not to mention most scepter builds don’t trait heavily in the water line because it’s more of an offensive weapon set than a defensive one.

Zuik.7158:

Burning Speed: This ability now evades attacks. – Great. So now I have to wait a second before I can hit the elementalist again. Nice one ANet.

You might want to give a better reason than that because it surely sounds like a predator complaining how it’ll take him 1 second longer to kill his #1 prey. If you reverse it, elementalists will say “Great, now I can survive 1 second longer”.

Zuik.7158:

Frozen Burst: This ability is now a blast finisher. Really? So you’re just saying spam your skills and win. They don’t even have to think about how to use an AoE chill anymore because LOL I HAZ MIGHT.

As for this, I’m have to admit I’m pretty much surprised. But one thing, you need a fire field to stack might. Going into water attunement to stack up might means you won’t have your water attunement available because it is on cooldown when you actually need it for heals.

I agree that other skills should have been buffed first because they’re a lot more lackluster than the buffed ones. But hey, I think any elementalist would take any kind of buff instead of getting none.

Introp.8465:

looks like we found ele player.
Every skill is good design because ANET team made it that way. Im paying for ANET to do their job, they do it. Keep your opinion on useless skills for yourself. Or go create a better game. You dont even say whats bad and how to improve ( as if that would be interesting, but still)

TC made a list for every class so I don’t think it’s good to automatically judge him like that. I think 99 out of 100 players, regardless if they play Elementalist or not, would point out at least 1 skill with a bad design from the class.

If you’re gonna judge him like that, then I guess it’s safe to assume that you’re probably a warrior who doesn’t want their #1 prey to get fixed?

TC posted a summary of most of the skills from all classes which has balance issue and most of the skills listed have been raised up by the playerbase before. But here you are bashing him while you made no contribution at all aside from paying for the game. I’m just reminding you that you’re not the only person who payed for this game so please keep your egoistic comments to yourself because you’re not helping at all.