(edited by Kyon.9735)
I think they were just trying to show the synergy of the new GM traits. If Elemental Contingency work like EA (Boon ICD is per attunement) I’ll definitely give it a try.
Yeah. They still have 40 points left to allocate, 3 utilities, 1 heal, 1 elite, different choices of armor and trinket stat combinations, runes, and sigils to balance their builds.
If only people would stop thinking they’re locked into certain traits like EA and Water Magic.
Off-topic:
You guys should definitely try Chillmentalist. It’s really fun in PvP hotjoin and 1v1s against not OP classes/builds. Take 30 Arcana for Elemental Surge instead of EA. Maybe it’d help you a little to get used to not having EA.Wow, 40 trait points. That isnt exactly a lot now is it. Then we get on to the Utilities….all of which have insane cool downs and the defensive ones have even higher cool downs. So really what does that matter?
As for Elite – we could go with FGS which is used MORE to actually escape than it is for fighting which says enough about that. It is also getting nerfed with changes to LF. We could use Tornado, oh wait that is TERRIBLE and has use in like 1% of the game. Has no added toughness for a melee transformation and is owned HARD by range classes. Or we could go with the insane cool down, average skill of the Elementals that unless you go for Earth they die in seconds and have VERY little impact on fights. yeah some GREAT choices here…
We have limited options in pretty much everything. The new sigil changes are a NERF to us (and engi) but a buff to everyone else. So we are rather limited when it comes to Sigils, the Rune changes mean less benefits from mixing runes which quite a few eles did as well.
I have yet to encounter a single ele that has no/low points in Earth, Water and Arcane. I spend hours in OS dueling as well and not seen a single one that hasn’t got at least 10+ points in them. Most go with 15-20 into Water and 30 into Arcane.
Now if we were given some REAL defensive options that didnt come with insane cool downs that actually the same cool down length as some classes ELITE skills then we wouldn’t need to go into the trait lines. However, that is not the case and these trait lines offer the best defense we can get.
The point is this: Will it stop some Crit hits? Yes. Will it turn the tide of fights? No. Within days other classes will expect all eles to be running this and with that they will just hold back enough to kill you the moment you come out of Earth.
It will do one thing: Delay the inevitable.
I guess i am one of the few that would rather have a trait that has the chance of turning the tide of fights. Rather than some lazy trait that only works in a terrible attunement. No one will care if you are in Earth, especially if you are using D/X they will continue to attack until you are forced out to heal -Then what? You get burst and burst hard.
40 trait points is a lot if you don’t lock yourself into Water/Arcana.
Will it turn the tide of the battle? It depends on how you take advantage of it. Like that other guy pointed out (though his tongue is very sharp), you won’t notice the possibilities of Stone Heart to turn the tide of the battle if you mindlessly swap attunements just to spam available skills.
It’ll be single target since it has an internal cooldown. It’ll proc on the first thing it Burns every 5 seconds.
See: every trait in the game that has an internal cooldown is always single-target.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Elemental_Power
There is hope. GoEP has 5s ICD per target.
Tried and tested it myself. 0/0/0/0/0 Trait Line. Use GoEP in Fire Attunement then Meteor Shower the PvP Golems. You’ll see multiple burn procs.
That’s not a trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leg_Specialist
Oh yeah my bad lol. I guess I’m just mindlessly trying to deny the harsh reality.
If it’s a global 5s ICD, this trait would be good in 1v1 but might be so-so if fighting more. I don’t think applying blind randomly will help a lot. I say randomly because you can’t control the burning application of the Fire traits, both minor and major (apply burn when hit, apply burn on crit). Even most of the skills that apply burning are AoE.
Well, since they can make a trait that has per target ICD, I’ll still hope they make the blind per target as well D;
(edited by Kyon.9735)
It’ll be single target since it has an internal cooldown. It’ll proc on the first thing it Burns every 5 seconds.
See: every trait in the game that has an internal cooldown is always single-target.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Elemental_Power
There is hope. GoEP has 5s ICD per target.
Tried and tested it myself. 0/0/0/0/0 Trait Line. Use GoEP in Fire Attunement then Meteor Shower the PvP Golems. You’ll see multiple burn procs.
Lol.. the trait is not supposed to be all and end all for the ele. Its 1 out of 2 possible gm in your build afterall. Its not supposed to give you free pass against 2vs1s without cds etc ..:D
Exactly! I just don’t follow the logic going on here!
Yeah. They still have 40 points left to allocate, 3 utilities, 1 heal, 1 elite, different choices of armor and trinket stat combinations, runes, and sigils to balance their builds.
If only people would stop thinking they’re locked into certain traits like EA and Water Magic.
Off-topic:
You guys should definitely try Chillmentalist. It’s really fun in PvP hotjoin and 1v1s against not OP classes/builds. Take 30 Arcana for Elemental Surge instead of EA. Maybe it’d help you a little to get used to not having EA.
Well, yeah, they’ve given us a way to fix the survivability problems everyone’s been complaining about. I don’t get it, do you want them to buff the Elementalist’s survivability for all builds?
Yes because the biggest problem with eles is that they are too weak baseline and need traits to become decent which pidgeonholes them to bunker or glass with no form of survivability.
This post summarizes it perfectly.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Elementalist-survival-PvE/page/2#post3807363Edit: if baseline ele is buffed some traits might need to be nerfed but that is perfectly fine.
As far as I know, Elementalists have a lot of defensive skills. The only problem with their survivability is their low base HP.
I might as well add that these defensive skills have ridiculously high CDs as well.
Because they’re very strong. If Obsidian Flesh was on a 30 sec CD, it’d be ridiculous.
Obsidian Flesh is exclusive to Focus which is a Defensive Weapon. What other Elementalist defensive skill is as strong as Obsidian Flesh?
Well, yeah, they’ve given us a way to fix the survivability problems everyone’s been complaining about. I don’t get it, do you want them to buff the Elementalist’s survivability for all builds?
Yes because the biggest problem with eles is that they are too weak baseline and need traits to become decent which pidgeonholes them to bunker or glass with no form of survivability.
This post summarizes it perfectly.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Elementalist-survival-PvE/page/2#post3807363Edit: if baseline ele is buffed some traits might need to be nerfed but that is perfectly fine.
As far as I know, Elementalists have a lot of defensive skills. The only problem with their survivability is their low base HP.
I might as well add that these defensive skills have ridiculously high CDs as well.
In b4: Non thief players claiming to know anything about chill + thieves. CC’s are already a thief’s worst nightmare, so lets make it even easier to cc them. How would you feel only being able to use autoattack while being chilled? (-66% ini regen, rofl) Gotta love people crying about chill, while they’re playing stupidly broken condi tank builds. Move along.
Ask Elementalists.
You’ll probably miss Healing Ripple and Cleansing wave from Water. But take in mind that since you now run 30 in Earth and Stone Heart, you will have higher Armor and be able to lessen the damage you take which means you won’t need to heal as much.
As for condi cleanse, I believe you can never have enough condi cleanses in this meta because of the ease of application. I believe you’re using Rock Solid + Ether Renewal so that should be enough for your condi cleanse but you’ll probably need to get more experience on when to cleanse your conditions.
Alternatively, you can skip on EA and get 20 in water instead if you value heal+cleanse more than blast finisher because you can’t proc the Heal + cleanse from EA if you’re immobilized.
If the PVE meta reward supports, it might work but unfortunately it doesn’t. The loot system itself shows how much Anet values Damage over Support. If you choose to be a support Ele, expect to get green or yellow loot bags. Going full zerker would still be faster. If people would want any “support” class, it would be Guardians for on-demand boon sharing and projectile reflects.
The only dungeon where I see support Eles would work is High Level Fractals.
kyon there are lot of tanky ele build…
We need some form of survivability that can be applied to balanced and zerk.And “when hit” i something shouldn t even appear in elementalist traits…..
(you get protection when you have so low HP that you won t really care about protection)
“When Hit” traits are already in the Elementalist traits. I think no matter what class you play you can’t avoid getting hit. I think protection is good, it’s a 33% damage reduction overall regardless of your HP. Yes, it won’t stop people from attacking you but it still helps.
What would you suggest as a GM trait for Earth that promotes defense against power builds?
As i said with diamond skin….
I ll say here again..
Trash trait totally forgotten in 1 month.Nobody will get this as grandmaster trait in the worst trait tree for elementalist.
The problem with Diamond Skin was the threshold though. A couple of auto attacks rendered it useless. If it was lowered to maybe 70% ~ 80% the results would’ve been different.
On a side note, I think Earth Magic is a good trait line. If ever they decide to change Stone Heart to what others want, a passive defensive mechanism that works on any attunement, I’d suggest to make it:
Grant 3 seconds Protection when Critically Hit with a 10 second CD. The idea is the same, give Elementalists more survivability against Power Builds except that it would promote more passive play contradictory to what Anet aims which is Active play.
All other classes except Elementalist and Engineer can use 3 different on-swap sigils and 1 stacking sigil. Elementalist and Engineer can only use 1 stacking sigil and 1 on-swap sigil.
I can’t see the reasoning why people say it’s fair. The number of procs becomes irrelevant when other classes can simply use more.
Your basic point is that the warrior is so incredibly OP right now that what should be insanely good GM traits won’t get used because there is something more insane.
I agree. The need is a warrior nerf.
Vote this guy for president.
With this set you are gonna lose evasive arcana …
It’s always clear which players have just run the 2012 bunker boon duration build without ever deviating because they saw a video of a player doing well with it.
Evasive Arcana isn’t necessary to be effective as an Ele.
Exactly. There are people locked into the mindset that you’re required to have 30 points in Arcana if you’re playing DD. EA is good but it’s not a necessity. You will just need 20 points in Arcana at most if you can balance your build well. I’ve even tried builds with 0/10 points Arcana for fun.
Request: Dear You , from Higurashi
Just tried 30/10/0/0/30 DD in PvP with Soldiers Amulet equipped with a Zerker Jewel. Hits like a truck but so-so survivability when fighting more than 1 enemy. Can’t wait to try it out with Blinding Ashes.
Can anybody help me make Dear You from Higurashi?
I think Blinding Ashes would fit well on any build because the 30 points in Fire Magic alone gives you a lot of burning procs. I’d personally want to suggest Signet of Fire as it gives you Precision on passive and deals decent burning damage on a 20 second cool down and is an “on-demand” burn+blind button on a 1,200 range.
As for runes, the first thing that came to my mind was Runes of Balthazar as well along with Ether Renewal. However, I think it might be better to get more defensive runes since you are already going 30 deep into Fire Magic and you already have enough Burning Procs.
1. Earth is a Defensive Attunement. If being in a Defensive Attunement allows you to become an offensive threat at the same time, it’s what you call imbalanced. You are an Elementalist, not a Warrior. You can’t have the best of both worlds.
2. You switch to Earth Attunement when you predict an incoming burst. Think of Stone Heart as an Active Defense mechanism. This trait will reward skilled players who uses their skills and trait advantages selectively based on the situation instead of spamming all available skills.
3. Elementalists have been crying for more survivability for a year. Here they are; Blinding Ashes and Stone Heart. Blinding Ashes gives you a defensive mechanism while going into a full Offensive trait line. Stone Heart rewards skilled elementalists who actually predict their enemy’s moves and manage their attunements properly instead of spamming available skills.
From what I see it seems like people want an “easier” access to survivability that doesn’t require player skill at all.
Going full zerker on a Guardian is a lot more forgiving because it naturally has high base Armor. You can go Full Zerker on Elementalist in Fractals too but you will probably have a hard time in higher levels and you will need help from your allies for boon/heal sharing (gotta love guardians).
It’s either you put in some toughness (get some Cavalier gear maybe) and/or learn to dodge though you will only have limited dodges so it’s better that you get some more toughness.
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Power builds rely on crit effects your ele relys on crits for vigor probably. Mesmers rely on crits for vigor, guardians rely on crits for vigor try playing anyone of them without vigor it is a really big difference.
Condi necros and engi rely on crit for burns. Do you have a Necro or Engi? I have both and the difference between not running your burn on crit trait and your burn on crit trait is huge!! More so for the engi then the necro but you notice the dps difference immediately.
I like you Ash but it just sounds like you don’t realize the extra depth to the combat that is there. Nobody sits in earth but everyone uses earth and ring of earth does alot of damage magnetic grasp is very strong immoblize on a short cooldown. I just can’t wrap my head around why you think stone heart is bad because earth doesn’t have fire attunement damage.
Power builds rely on the damage, not on the crit effects. Sure they are nice, but they are not relying on them. Condi Necro and condi Engi don’t even need the burning. They will still do fine without the burning. So i dont see that as being a huge issue.
Mesmers don’t need the Vigor, they have plenty of stealth and ways to stay out of the way of damage. Sure it will will be a little benefit but it wont be anything that decides the outcome.
No one sits in Earth because it is a terrible attunement. It might be okay to avoid a burst. But that is just delaying the next burst. Once you go Earth then you are no threat. They will just keep attacking and wait for you to leave before going full burst.
Now, if the trait no matter how very unlikely was affected by Lingering Elements, that could really make it something very interesting.
Actually, Mesmers need Vigor on crit procs. You pointed out that they have stealth for defensive purposes but most Mesmer builds rely on clones and one of their best traits is Deceptive Evasion which leaves a clone when they dodge. Shatter relies heavily on clones as well as PU builds.
As for Necro, I have no comment because I don’t play one. Burning from Incendiary Powder is definitely one of the best and most reliable condi an Engi can get from a trait.
Like I said before, the Earth Magic trait line and skills were supposed to be defensive right from the start. If you being on a superior defensive attunement also allows you to be an offensive threat at the same time, it’s imbalance. You’re an Elementalist, not a Warrior. You can’t have the best of both worlds /sarcasm.
When you’re in Earth and you know your enemy is waiting for you to swap out of it, this is when you should think of your next possible steps. What attunements are available for me? What utilities can I use after I swap out of earth? Maybe I can use Earthquake then swap to Fire and use Burning Speed + LF to do my own burst?
You must not have looked at the warriors tactics line
The meta class still complaining for something? /sarcasm.
I have a warrior too and yes, they’re pretty lackluster. Tactics line is for support and they’re not totally horrible and useless for a “Medic” trait line. Other classes need to trait for it to get “When-reviving” bonuses.
At the very least you can actually see the effects of those Minor traits unlike Arcane Precision.
I might just try that and rename my character Zeus
Lol good idea.
But I agree, it seems like Anet’s promoting “active play” where you use your skills selectively instead of just spamming them (except Pistolwhip because Spam2Win). The irony is that most classes and builds itself work on a Rock-Paper-Scissors system which hopefully they can change.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Precision
Skills have a chance to apply a condition on critical hits.
Chance on critical hit: 10%
Fire Attunement – Burning: 1 s (328 damage)
Water Attunement – Vulnerability: 10 s
Air Attunement – Weakness: 3 s
Earth Attunement – Bleeding: 5 s (213 damage)
After a year, this is still one of the most useless and unreliable Minor Grandmaster traits in the game. You need to crit and you need to be lucky to proc that 10% chance for very weak effects. The RNG on this skill is so broken.
Can we expect any changes for this?
It’s not a nerf. It’s a fix. They’ll be nerfing FGS on wall sometime “soon” too.
Yeah, saw that as well. Arcane builds became even more useless.
On the contrary? Arcana builds are reliant on stacking high crit damage? This sigil is really great for Arcana builds.
Arcana skills already have 100% crit chance. Yes, this sigil will be good for certain builds but the problem is that it makes Arcane Power literally useless. It does 2 more crits but is on a 45 second CD.
If the ICD of Blinding Ashes is per target, I’d be really excited for it. It’s so easy to apply burning if you put 30 points in it regardless of the weapon set you use. Attack or get attacked, you can inflict burning on your enemies. I’d even suggest taking Signet of Fire (20s CD and deals decent burning damage) for the extra burn/blind proc. You can also take Fire’s Embrace for an extra Fire Aura which leads to more burns and blinds. You get a natural form of defense in a full offensive trait line.
Flame Barrier – 20% chance to burn your enemy when you’re attacked in melee when attuned to fire.
Burning Precision – 30% chance to burn your enemy when you crit.
One of the best things they can do is to buff Arcane Precision. 10% chance to apply conditions on critical hits is very Meh for a Minor GM trait.
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Hm, what if they flip the signet of water. So that it has a random chance to apply chill (sort of like glyph of elemental power, maybe a higher proc chance) and the activate cures maybe something like 3 conditions.
This would be perfect. I love this idea.
On the bad side though, nobody would use Cleansing Fire and GoEP anymore if this happens. Maybe they should increase Cleansing Fire’s burn damage. Giving Water signet a lower chance to proc Chill, maybe 10%, should be decent enough for a passive signet.
Does this mean Power Builds are totally useless against Stone Heart builds?
Theoretically your enemies will only have a 4-6 second window to burst you if you take 15-30 points in Arcana for Lingering Elements assuming that you attune back to Earth as soon as it is available. However, you can’t always maintain the same kind of rotation because you will need to switch attunements based on the situation. Sticking to a static skill rotation is like giving yourself a handicap. You need to swap your attunements to adapt.You might want to re-read what lingering elements actually does (despite displaying a completely incorrect description): http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lingering_Elements
The most important part is at the bottom:
This trait only functions with Soothing Mist, Flame Barrier, Zephyr’s Speed and Stone Flesh
So it works only with the five point minors, not with any other minor and very much less any selectable trait. So it won’t extend the duration of stone heart either. So were talking about 1-3 seconds uptime of stone heart in a normal rotation.
Maybe it was my bad to assume that they’d change it for Stone Heart and would completely invalidate what I said regarding having 4-6 second window time to get bursted in which I would apologize. But even if it they decide not to make it work with Lingering Elements, it doesn’t make Stone Heart useless at all. It will stay the same and will still be situational, you still swap into earth when you predict an incoming burst.
1-3 seconds uptime on a normal rotation? Seems like people are misunderstanding the purpose of this trait. You get this trait as an Active Defense, not a Passive Defense. You get this trait to negate an incoming burst which gives yourself breathing time to counter. You cannot negate all bursts but this is certainly better than not being able to negate any. People keep on pointing out you can’t use it most of the time, you’re not supposed to. You’re not supposed to stay in Earth forever as either.
If I know that my enemy is waiting for me to swap out of Earth, I’ll stay in it until I can think of a plan on what to do next which is infinitely better than letting him be able to burst me anytime.
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This. TBH I’m kind of confused why people insist that they need to sit in Earth attunement. This trait is an Active Defense which allows them to nullify an entire burst. If they choose to stay in Earth to permanently get the trait’s effect which cripples their DPS greatly, then they’re doing it wrong.
Except, Thief can redo that burst within 4seconds. So While you may avoid the first burst, the moment you leave it you will be burst down anyway.
So they do there burst, it is reduced by the trait and being in earth. Then what? You’re in an attunement that offers very little. The thief will just wait until you leave it and burst you down. That isnt exactly great play, that is just waiting for you to leave an attunement.
In the mean time they will keep attacking you and have little to fear because Earth skills are rather weak and of little threat to pretty much anyone. So the thief is just bididng his time knowing thaqt you will have no choice but to leave the attunement sooner or later and as soon as that happens, back into easily obtained stealth ready to backstab you know that you will have at least 10seconds before you can go back into it.
From little to none fighting chance at all to being immune to their burst. That’s a really big change. During the time you’re sitting in Earth you should think of how to counter them the moment you go out of Earth. I know you’re a D/D player, remember you have Lingering Elements. Make the most out of the 5 seconds after you leave Earth.
Does this mean Power Builds are totally useless against Stone Heart builds?
As pointed out a couple of times already, Earth Attunement skills lack DPS.. If an Elementalist chooses to stay in Earth, he’ll be of no offensive threat.
Earth weapon skills lack damage. If I stay in it too long, I can survive crits but I can’t deal decent damage
You basically take advantage of Stone Heart to buy yourself some time to think of your next step. Since your enemy will know that it will be pointless to spam high cooldown skills (unless you’re really low), he will save it until you swap out of earth. You can literally stay in Earth and wait for other attunements and utilities to be available.
When should I switch to Earth for Stone Heart then?
When you predict that your enemy will burst you. Most of the time, players will initiate with a CC and follow it up with a burst. This will be easy for moves that you can easily telegraph like Shatter, Backstab (as long as you know a thief is lurking in stealth), Warrior Mace/Bull’s Charge + 100B combo, Warrior Hammer Combo, Kill Shot etc. For other bursts that are not easy to telegraph, you will need to use your instincts and reflexes.
Why take Stone Heart instead of other GM traits
There are other GM traits that are good too. Fresh Air, Cleansing Water, Evasive Arcana, I think Blinding Ashes might be really good too depending if the ICD is per target or not. The same goes for Elemental Contingency, if the ICD of the boons are per Attunement like EA, I’d like to try out some builds with it.
So back to the question. One of the biggest banes of an elementalist is that it’s really squishy especially to burst attacks. You can stack up all the Toughness and Vitality you want but Critical Hits from zerker builds will still deal massive damage. Stone Heart is the direct answer against this weakness. If you are skilled enough to use it properly, this trait will be very rewarding.
Since I am putting 30 points in a defensive trait, what will happen to my damage? What about attunement recharge?
Luckily Stone Splinters is available at the Adept Master Tier so you can get a free 10% damage when in 600 range. This would mean though that you can’t get Elemental Shielding. Well, welcome to life where you can’t get the best of both worlds (unless you’re a Warrior /pun intended).
As for Attunement Recharge, this will be a matter of preference. For Dagger builds I personally always want at least 20 points in it for Elemental Attunement but I’ve tried Dagger builds with 0 points in Arcana. Fresh Air builds will be able to live with even at least 5 points in Arcana. Remember, traits are just a part of the equation. Get the stats you’re lacking from Armors, Runes, and Trinkets.
As for builds and trait distribution, my best advice would be Never think that you’re locked to put points in Arcana and Water lines. Try out different builds, traits, armors, trinkets, and runes. Think. If you have 3k armor and 1000 Healing Power, would you still need 18k HP? If I use DD and have Soothing Mist, Healing Ripple, and Cleansing Wave, do I still need Evasive Arcana for the extra heal proc? Maybe I can put it in an offensive stat to balance it out.
What builds do you think are possible to use with Stone Heart?
S/X Fresh Air – Stone Heart – 0/30/30/0/10
D/X Power Hybrid/DPS Stone Heart – 0/10/30/0/30, 0/20/30/0/20
D/X Bunker Stone Heart – 0/0/30/10/30, 0/0/30/20/20, 0/0/30/30/10
D/X Power DPS Blinding Ashes – Stone Heart – 30/10/30/0/0, 30/0/30/0/10
As for condi builds, I’m still theory crafting. I still don’t think Elementalist is as good as Warrior in stacking bleeds so I’ll have to try more builds in PvP hotjoins.
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@Nageth
I won’t use the reply button since it’ll be too long.
Sorry, let me rephrase it. The word I’m looking for is not “Passive” but rather “Universal”.
In the example you gave regarding Regen and Condi Removal, you highlight that you can remove conditions while in any attunement as long as you apply Regen. It doesn’t explicitly require you to be in Water Attunement.
Now your problem is that for Stone Heart to work, you explicitly need to go to Earth.
What you want is something more “Universal” like Condi Cleanse on Regen which doesn’t explicitly require you to enter one attunement to be useful. What you want is a fair idea, but that doesn’t mean Stone Heart will be completely useless.
What Earth Magic traits would synergize well with Stone Heart and why?
For builds that has access to 2 or more Auras (if you have Fire’s Embrace and Signets), it would be Elemental Shielding, and Rock Solid. Armor of Earth would be good for defensive purposes, Stone Splinters for offensive builds.
Elemental Shielding will give you protection in any attunement as long as you activate an Aura. This means 33% damage reduction overall.
Rock Solid paired with Ether Renewal means you won’t necessarily need to go deep (or not at all) in Water Magic for condition cleansing. Ether Renewal removes 8 conditions on a 15 second cool down with a 3.5 seconds channeling time. Conditions are so easy to apply, no matter what build you use you will never be free of conditions so I don’t really see a point in stacking too much condition removals. If you still want more condition cleanses without going for Water Line, you can get Cleansing Fire. The key here is to know when to cleanse your conditions.
Armor of Earth gives you extra Protection and Stability which would synergize well with Ether Renewal and gives you an extra bump to your defense.
Stone Splinters for offensive builds.
In short, as long as you get Rock solid and use Ether Renewal as your heal, you won’t necessarily need to go for Water Magic.
Not getting any point for Water Magic means I’ll lose Vitality and Healing Power
Yes, you will have less Vitality and Healing Power but you should always take note of your EHP (Effective Health Pool). Since you are going GM on Earth Magic, it means you will have 300 more toughness with an additional 120 toughness when attuned to Earth. You will also have constant 33% damage reduction if you opt for Elemental Shielding. Having a high armor and easy access to Protection would mean you won’t have to heal as much. If you still want more HP/Healing, get it through your Armors, Runes, or Trinkets.
Why do you think Stone Heart is good?
Because it will give you an Active Defense against Power Builds. Like I said over and over again, to maximize the effects of Stone Heart you need to learn how to predict when your enemy is going to burst so you can switch to Earth to negate it.
If thieves were able to burst you down in seconds before, with Stone Heart and proper timing of activation, you will now have a fighting chance against them. The same goes for other Power builds. Of course, what you do after you negate their burst still matters. They can simply burst you again once you get out of Earth so you need to properly think of how to react on different situations.
Can you provide more detail for how you plan to use this trait outside of making crude bathroom humor jokes? I’m really curious. I would like to know how people want to use these traits.
Uhhhhh…you swap to earth to proc prot and negate burst and/or to proc rock solid to clear condis and heal……..situationally……
I heard you like rock hard appendage jokes.
You guys are severely underestimating the fact that you can nullify and entire burst and leave the attunement with prot for your following offensive posture.
This. TBH I’m kind of confused why people insist that they need to sit in Earth attunement. This trait is an Active Defense which allows them to nullify an entire burst. If they choose to stay in Earth to permanently get the trait’s effect which cripples their DPS greatly, then they’re doing it wrong.
This, my friend, is what you call skilled play. Being able to know when and how to use your skills and advantages is what makes a player good.
Imagine that you’re a thief and you’re trying to burst an Elementalist with Stone Heart. Right before you burst from stealth, he switches to Earth and negates your crit burst. If I was that thief I’d say that Elementalist is skilled for knowing when to proc Stone Heart.
This is better than having it more of a passive skill. I’d rather say “Oh, that Ele switched to Earth to block my burst. He’s good” than say “Oh, he blocked my crit burst because of a passive/RNG skill. He’s a lucky sunuvab!tch”
And about synergy, this trait have great synergy with Lingering Attunements. You attune to Earth for defensive purposes. Now you want to deal damage? Switch to Fire or Air. You will still have 5s of Stone Heart after you switch out of Earth.
So lets assume an actual skilled thief. Lets assume he sees you’re in earth attunement (because he can see that). So he baits you out of earth attunement or waits for you to switch. He can then wait for the earth attunement to fall off (because again he can see that). And now you’re stuck with a window where you can be crit down. And I think we’re aware that a skilled thief can spike you down significantly in a 4 second window.
You see the problem here? The ability is dependent on you sitting in an attunement that has no synergy to sit in it. The only example of synergy you provided was on in Arcana that allows for a 5 second grace period (when the trait works correctly). How does that address the earth trait line. How does that provide a coherent play style?
You see, this is why I think you want a passive trait. Stone Heart is an Active Defense which you need to use at the right place and at the right time. What you want is something that cannot be countered that doesn’t let the thief to get a time window when he can burst you.
Do you think it’s fair that a thief gets no window at all to do what he’s best at which is bursting?
And if a thief baits you out of Earth Attunement and successfully bursts you then he deserves to be called skilled and he deserves the kill. You said it yourself, the thief only has a 4 second window to burst you assuming you’ll switch back to earth as soon as it’s available. Without Stone Heart? He can burst you anytime. From Anytime down to 4 seconds, I think that’s really big.
It’s the same as waiting for your enemy to dodge twice before dropping all your bursts.
You’re not supposed to “sit in Earth Attunement” to maximize its use.
Let me give you one build as an example which will be possible because of Stone Heart.
S/x Fresh Air Stone Heart Build (x/30/30/x/x)
We all know that Fresh Air builds will always be prone to crit bursts (usually killed in seconds by thieves in PvP). Earth Attunement in Scepter and Focus are Defensive (AoE Blind, Additional Toughness, Condi Cleanse with Projectile Reflect, and Invulnerability). Stone Heart would fit this weapon set perfectly because it will allow you to survive an incoming burst and counter your enemy with your own burst.
Same thing goes with Scepter/Dagger but this is less defensive. Going into Earth just for Defensive purposes won’t be a waste at all.
This lets the naturally squishy Fresh Air build a lot more survivability if used properly.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
Yes and while the Ele might have survived that Backstab, the Thief will know that the ele is no threat what so ever while being in Earth so can continue to attack without fear until the ele is forced to change to water for healing and which point the Thief will stealth and go back in with a BS.
Personally i think this is a rather terrible trait. Mainly because Earth offers VERY little in terms of offense. So you are sacrificing not being a threat to survive a BS at which point what do you do? you are stuck in a attunement that is no threat you are stlll taking damage. You go to Water to heal and that means you are a free target for Crits for at least 10seconds. That is enough time for several Backstabs.
I think this will just make Thief even harder to kill, as they will be expecting this will build for more power so even if they arent critting they are still doing solid damage and they will just keep attacking and attacking until you are forced to move out of Earth into Water to dodge roll heal, use other healing skills and such. Then you are an easy target again.
Personally i would rather have had a trait that increases Toughness by 50%. Or maybe have it increase Toughness by 50% of Condition Damage, seeing as its in the condition damage line it fits. This would be useable in ALL attunements as well.
First of all, Earth Attunement is supposed to be a Defensive set. Why do you insist that it needs to do superior damage as well?
Second, if you want to deal damage and still have the effects of Stone Heart, do something in your build which allows you to have 30 points in Earth and 15 points in Arcana for Lingering Attunements. That way you can switch to Fire or Air if you want to deal damage while still having the effects of Stone Heart.
Lastly, I think it’s fair to let the thief to still get a time window where he can burst you.
Precisely. Stop thinking Eles are locked to certain Trait lines.
Having 30 points in 1 attunement doesn’t mean you’ll be locked in it. Even now, I swap to Earth for Protection if I know that my enemy will burst me. It’ll be even better when Stone Heart comes because you will basically be immune to bursts if you use Earth properly.
I’d love to try out Blinding Ashes too. With 30 points in Fire it will be so easy to proc Burns and blinds especially on Main Hand Dagger.
The problem is Earth skills are really lackluster. Outside Ring of Earth, Magnetic Grasp if you can get it off in time and Earthquake (in D/D) it offers nothing. The auto attack is shockingly poor and you stand VERY little chance of getting Churning Earth off.
Now if Earth had a VIABLE skillset that meant you would still be a threat, great. However that is not the case, you lose so much threat just being in Earth and all you show for it is taking a little less damage than you would in another attunement where you would pose a greater threat to them as well…
Wait, how did we end up with Weapon Skill Sets when we’re talking about Traits?
But yes, I agree Dagger mainhand is somewhat lacking for Earth Attunement.
Earth Magic increases Toughness and Condition Damage, and focuses on Earth Attunement skills, additional defensive abilities and signets.
Attune to earth, gaining superior damage-over-time and defensive abilities.
Scepter main hand offers Additional Toughness and AoE Blind. (Defensive)
Focus Offhand offers Condition Cleansing with projectile reflect and Invulnerability. (Defensive)
Staff offers Bleeds, Projectile Reflect, and Crowd Control (Offensive and Defensive)
Dagger Offhand offers AoE crowd control and a channeling skill that applies 4 stacks of bleeding. (Offensive and Defensive)
What does Mainhand dagger offer?
A lackluster melee skill that applies cripple and 1 stack of bleed, and a single target soft crowd control.
Dagger Mainhand on Earth does not provide “superior damage-over-time” nor does it offer good defensive abilities.
You go into Earth to block Crit Bursts and block crit procs for condis. You leave Earth when you want to deal damage. With Lingering Attunements you can make full use of Stone Heart. You don’t need to be locked up in Earth.
Having a class be immune to Crit permanently is so OP so Anet made it only on Earth Attunement so it promotes skilled plays.
I don’t think anyone is arguing to make the trait apply to all attunements. It seems pretty obvious that an across the board immunity would be insane. What we’re saying is that the current version of the trait is situational at best. This normally wouldn’t be problematic except for the fact that earth traits are low on synergy and earth skills encourage the elementalist to leave the attunement as quickly as possible. The trait thus contradicts current mechanics without providing any synergy other than a possible buff to conjure builds in pvp/wvw settings.
By saying situational, you mean you want something with more passive play? I don’t know, IMO it’s good as it is. It promotes skilled plays instead of passive plays. You predict that someone will burst you? Switch to Earth to completely negate the crit burst. With Lingering Attunements, you should have decent up time of Stone Heart’s bonus.
No, by saying situational I don’t mean wanting something more passive. By saying situational I’m implying that the situation for which it is useful is very infrequent. Again, I stated that situation is not necessarily bad. When you have situational abilities that have high synergy it is good.
Compare this to our new earth gm trait. Again, it is situational. You have to be in a situation where you can predict you will be taking spike crit damage (if you cannot predict it there is a chance the earth attunement will be on cooldown or you’d be spiked down so fast that you won’t have a chance to respond).
This, my friend, is what you call skilled play. Being able to know when and how to use your skills and advantages is what makes a player good.
Imagine that you’re a thief and you’re trying to burst an Elementalist with Stone Heart. Right before you burst from stealth, he switches to Earth and negates your crit burst. If I was that thief I’d say that Elementalist is skilled for knowing when to proc Stone Heart.
This is better than having it more of a passive skill. I’d rather say “Oh, that Ele switched to Earth to block my burst. He’s good” than say “Oh, he blocked my crit burst because of a passive/RNG skill. He’s a lucky sunuvab!tch”
And about synergy, this trait have great synergy with Lingering Attunements. You attune to Earth for defensive purposes. Now you want to deal damage? Switch to Fire or Air. You will still have 5s of Stone Heart after you switch out of Earth.
You go into Earth to block Crit Bursts and block crit procs for condis. You leave Earth when you want to deal damage. With Lingering Attunements you can make full use of Stone Heart. You don’t need to be locked up in Earth.
Having a class be immune to Crit permanently is so OP so Anet made it only on Earth Attunement so it promotes skilled plays.
I don’t think anyone is arguing to make the trait apply to all attunements. It seems pretty obvious that an across the board immunity would be insane. What we’re saying is that the current version of the trait is situational at best. This normally wouldn’t be problematic except for the fact that earth traits are low on synergy and earth skills encourage the elementalist to leave the attunement as quickly as possible. The trait thus contradicts current mechanics without providing any synergy other than a possible buff to conjure builds in pvp/wvw settings.
By saying situational, you mean you want something with more passive play? I don’t know, IMO it’s good as it is. It promotes skilled plays instead of passive plays. You predict that someone will burst you? Switch to Earth to completely negate the crit burst. With Lingering Attunements, you should have decent up time of Stone Heart’s bonus.
Are we sure that the blinding from 30 fire will be aoe?
Honestly? No. I’m wondering that myself as what Karl McLain said that it’d help “skirmish with one or possibly more enemies at a time.” He doesn’t really elaborate on that. They mention burning speed/retreat will provide “some cover,” and that’s it.
I think he means you’ll be able to randomly blind and avoid damage from at least 1 attack. Since it won’t be a 1 on 1, your enemies won’t be able to easily predict or count 5 seconds from when you last blinded someone thus it gives you a chance to randomly blind and avoid their high damaging skills.
As for petting zoos, I don’t know. If it’s gonna be 5s ICD per target, it’s gonna be a lot better than people think.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
The majority of players that think they are “locked” into 30 arcana are usually D/D players. Staff and S/x often times don’t go 30 arcana. I run D/D almost exclusively or staff when needed in groups I only go 30 arcana for evasive arcana the attunement cd is just a secondary to me.
When I do run staff or S/x which isn’t often but I don’t go 30 arcana 20 max since S/x has a extra heal on main hand S/x and I usually pair it with /D. Now you can put that with 30 water to remove a additional condition on water trident.
I don’t think we’re locked into 30 arcana, but very rarely will you see an ele who does not spec at least SOME points into arcana because the base cd is still too high in a prolonged fight. The difference is significant when you fight against another ele, or any other class who chose to build into sustain. With higher attunement cd, eventually you will run out of steam (unless you’re absolute perfect on all timings, which I am admittedly not even close).
Not only that, as you said, E/A remains one of the best traits we have and it’s not changing, and it just so happens to be a GM trait.
I’ve seen plenty of other classes that forgo their “professional” traitline entirely. Can’t really say that about elementalists.
Precisely. Stop thinking Eles are locked to certain Trait lines.
Having 30 points in 1 attunement doesn’t mean you’ll be locked in it. Even now, I swap to Earth for Protection if I know that my enemy will burst me. It’ll be even better when Stone Heart comes because you will basically be immune to bursts if you use Earth properly.
I’d love to try out Blinding Ashes too. With 30 points in Fire it will be so easy to proc Burns and blinds especially on Main Hand Dagger.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
You go into Earth to block Crit Bursts and block crit procs for condis. You leave Earth when you want to deal damage. With Lingering Attunements you can make full use of Stone Heart. You don’t need to be locked up in Earth.
Having a class be immune to Crit permanently is so OP so Anet made it only on Earth Attunement so it promotes skilled plays.
This is where trade-offs happen. I think you locked yourself in the mentality that Eles explicitly require Healing, Vitality, and Boons from traits. Don’t get me wrong, this is constructive criticism. I’m not bashing you. Traits are just one thing. You still have your Armors and Trinkets to cover the things you lack.
Where to get healing and vitality? You can get Dire/Settler/Magi to cover the HP and Healing you lack. With 30 points in Earth you should at least get Elemental Shielding so you have reliable access to Protection especially since this will probably a Signet build.
I take the trait lines for the traits. Not for the stat bonuses.
Then why do you insist that Elementalists require 20/30 points in Water and Arcana?
For the traits…what else.
Soothing Mist, Soothing Wave, Healing Ripple among others
Elemental Attunement, Evasive Arcana, Lingering Elements, Arcane Fury among others
Did you even think about what you gain by losing them?
Remember, you started the discussion about having only 10 points left if you use 2 GM traits, specifically Fire and Earth. You will still have 10 point available to Arcana for Arcane Fury and Renewing Stamina or you can split it into Water and Arcana so you have both Soothing Mist and Arcane Fury.
You now have 300 more toughness from the trait line, additional 120 toughness when attuned to earth, and Immunity to Crits and bursts when attuned to Earth.
You have 30 points in Fire, you can proc blind almost every 5 seconds. You can get Protection by activating Signets because of Fire’s Embrace and Elemental Shielding. You still have Shocking Aura and Frost Aura (DD) or Fire Aura(DF) from your weapon set.
With all these defensive traits, would you still need to heal that much?
People have been asking Anet for more Survivability. Well, here they are.
Easy Access to blinds and Immunity to crits. Did everyone think Eles can get something without losing something? Personally I can’t believe how there are players who can’t appreciate the effects of blind.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
This is where trade-offs happen. I think you locked yourself in the mentality that Eles explicitly require Healing, Vitality, and Boons from traits. Don’t get me wrong, this is constructive criticism. I’m not bashing you. Traits are just one thing. You still have your Armors and Trinkets to cover the things you lack.
Where to get healing and vitality? You can get Dire/Settler/Magi to cover the HP and Healing you lack. With 30 points in Earth you should at least get Elemental Shielding so you have reliable access to Protection especially since this will probably a Signet build.
I take the trait lines for the traits. Not for the stat bonuses.
Then why do you insist that Elementalists require 20/30 points in Water and Arcana?
Water for Condition cleansing? Ether Renewal + Rock solid to prevent interrupts should be enough. You can never be free of conditions when fighting condition builds regardless of what build you use.
Arcana for boons? You can get Protection from Elemental Shielding. You can get Regeneration from Runes. You can get Sigil of Energy for dodges.
My point is you can get the things you lack from Armors, Trinkets, Runes, and Sigils. The extra few seconds increase in Attunement Swap is something you’ll need to learn to manage.
I’m pretty sure I put that you’ll only have 10 points left if you get 2 GM traits even before I edited it. You can either get Magi/Settler/Dire equipment to cover Vit and Healing.
I think you should start tinkering random builds that does not include 20 or 30 points in Water and Arcana. When I used to play DD 10x more than I played other weapon sets, I never imagined I could play DD without 20/30 points in Water and Arcana.
Arcana and Water are a requirement, until that changes it will make it kind of hard to do anything else. I guess you could get away with lower points in Arcana if you are a Fresh Air build but other than that, The more points you have in Arcana the lower the attunement cool downs and the lower they are the better.
Water is needed just for the healing you gain from it, even without the Healing power. Regen on crit, heal on attunement swap and such are VERY important.
I tried going into Fire but it just was not worth it. the loss of stats and traits elsewhere just was not worth it.
Maybe 0/0/30/10/30 could work but the loss of healing on attunement swap and such would still be hard.
This is where trade-offs happen. I think you locked yourself in the mentality that Eles explicitly require Healing, Vitality, and Boons from traits. Don’t get me wrong, this is constructive criticism. I’m not bashing you. Traits are just one thing. You still have your Armors and Trinkets to cover the things you lack.
Where to get healing and vitality? You can get Dire/Settler/Magi to cover the HP and Healing you lack. With 30 points in Earth you should at least get Elemental Shielding so you have reliable access to Protection especially since this will probably a Signet build.
You are forgetting something. To get Both the Fire and Earth traits you would have 10 points left. So you would lose healing, lose health, you would have longer attunement cool down, no boon on attunement swap just to name a few things. I really dont see this being a great option. Arcana is still a VERY important traitline, Water at least 15/20 is needed as well.
These are rather poor traits.
Remember, Only get Non-Crits happens in Earth. Might be affected by The Arcana trait so you either go into Earth to avoid taking crits but being NO threat what so ever or you take the hits and hope you can taken them down in damaging attunements.
Blind every 5 seconds isnt that great….
I’m pretty sure I put that you’ll only have 10 points left if you get 2 GM traits even before I edited it. You can either get Magi/Settler/Dire equipment to cover Vit and Healing.
I think you should start tinkering random builds that does not include 20 or 30 points in Water and Arcana. When I used to play DD 10x more than I played other weapon sets, I never imagined I could play DD without 20/30 points in Water and Arcana.
Fire is meh, the whole traitline is rather poor. So you burn someone and blind them great for Scepter and its Auto attack, average for anything else and weakened due to the trait line it is in
Air. Yawn. Terrible.
Earth is TERRIBLE. It has very average skills and is pretty terrible when going with D/D at the very least. This trait wont be taken by quite a few i dont think. Being in Earth and with D/D you are not a threat so not being able to be Crit hit means nothing.
Water. Terrible.
Arcane. Terrible. No chance it would be taken over Evasive Arcana.
I have to disagree with you on this. This open up a lot of builds for the Elementalist mainly a condi bunker build. I’m really excited for Stone Heart, Blinding Ashes, and Elemental Contingency. But yeah, Air and Water are rather Meh. I’d rather take Cleansing Water over Aquatic Benevolence. I think only Staff has enough Interrupts to fully take advantage of Lightning Rod.
1. Blinding Ashes plus Stone Heart – Gives you a Condi Bunker Elementalist which would work very well on Signet Builds especially D/x.
What traits applies Burns?
Flame Barrier, Burning Precision, Fire’s Embrace (Fire Aura from Signet Activation). Blinding Ashes has 5 seconds ICD which means you can pretty much proc blind every 5s. Now you can also get Runes of Balthazar for more Burning + Blind Procs.
Pros: Tanky Elementalist that can semi-spam blind and can be immune to Crits when he chooses too. Decent Condition Damage and Duration because of Trait line bonuses.
Cons: Still lacks access to conditions. Getting GMs in 2 lines will leave you with just 10 points which is not enough to get Elemental Attunement and Lingering Attunements. Long Attunement Cool Down.
2. Full Bunker. Stone Heart plus 20 or 30 in water. Maybe 0/0/30/20/20.
Pros: Good ability to tank plus condition cleansing.
Cons: You’re pretty much just a tank. Other condi bunkers can still do better.
IMO Earth has a couple of good traits for bunkering. Armor of Earth, Elemental Shielding, Rock Solid, and Geomancer’s Freedom.
There are a lot of other builds in my mind. If Elemental Contingency works like EA where each Element has its own ICD, I’d love to try it. With Boon Duration, the all the boons you can get will be at least around 4s+. We may also see Fresh Air + Stone Heart Ele builds.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
Regarding Condition Damage… just look at the state of sPvP.
Condition spamming is the meta even without condition duration food. Most people don’t even use condition duration runes.
Is a Power build using Cleric’s Amulet (Power, Healing, Toughness) scary in PvP? No.
Is a Condition build using Settler’s Amulet (Condition Damage, Healing, Toughness) scary in PvP? Yes.
Condition builds only need Precision to proc On-Crit effects. They’ll still deal decent damage without precision wherein the DPS output of Power builds are greatly hampered without Precision and Critical Damage.
I main Elementalist and Engineer but I usually play Engineer in team Queues and I can admit myself without any bias that it is still deadly even without proccing on-Crit effects like Burn and Bleed. The weapon skills will still deal Condition damage even if I don’t crit. You can say that using On-Crit effects is just an added bonus. You can’t say the same for Power Builds.
16s cooldown on vigor/regen and Condi removal while doing damage… I want it’s cd reduced a bit but I definitely think this is going a little too far.
I know not everyone takes the cantrip traits but still, a bit much.
Good point. Let’s not forget that cantrips can be traited to give Might/Regen and Vigor and cleanse conditions when used. 100% 3 stacks of might uptime and close to 50% regen and vigor uptime with just 20 trait points in Cantrip Mastery and soothing wave. Mesmer blink can only be traited for lower CD and additional range.