Guild Wars 2

kylwilson.9137:

Kyon.9735:

jportell.2197:

Kyon.9735:

jportell.2197:

Simple solution…
1. Give mesmers their good burst back.
2. Un-do one of the nerfs to blurred frenzy (IDC which)
3. Give mesmers better AOE support (mantras can suck it.)

Right now PU is the only decent mesmer build. Even hard core shatter lovers like osicat have given up on shatter because ANET has gutted mesmer burst inside and out. Now a shatter mesmer has to play a keyboard concerto to even make a remotely decent dent in a hammer warrior…

Basically all mesmers have going for them now is some variant of a PU build.

I think one of the main reasons why Shatter Mesmer has fallen off in tPvP is not because of the lack of burst but rather Thieves can do better defensively because of their better access to stealth while maintaining high burst/sustain damage similar to a shatter mesmer.

But before shatter mesmers could one shot thieves now its like “oh haha only half my health stealth!” Bam oneshot backstab HS hero combo.

I don’t know about one-shotting thieves I think you can still do that given that thieves don’t spam evasive skills (like SB #3) or shadowstep away.

Sword/Dagger’s entire baseline of damage involves evading mid-attack and will tear a Mesmer to shreds. It received a nerf some time ago, but despite that it’s still dreadfully effective at what it does, without even needing to have a glass cannon amulet (which to be honest is what I have wanted to see in a long time, so I’m glad). I still see these specs running around and I do my best to avoid them if I can help it.

No one-shotting happening here unfortunately.

It doesn’t only shred Mesmers, it shreds any other class not running a decent tanky build. As someone who loves playing zerk, nothing’s more annoying than fighting a thief who spams offensive skills with evasion frames like Pistol Whip or Flanking Strike or Death Blossom. Shatter mesmers usually start their burst after a successful Illusionary Leap + Swap but it’s really annoying seeing thieves spam evasive skills to easily avoid your shatter burst.

I’m saying shatter mesmers CAN still 1 shot thieves depending on the situation, I’m not saying they CAN ALWAYS 1 shot thieves.

jportell.2197:

Kyon.9735:

jportell.2197:

Simple solution…
1. Give mesmers their good burst back.
2. Un-do one of the nerfs to blurred frenzy (IDC which)
3. Give mesmers better AOE support (mantras can suck it.)

Right now PU is the only decent mesmer build. Even hard core shatter lovers like osicat have given up on shatter because ANET has gutted mesmer burst inside and out. Now a shatter mesmer has to play a keyboard concerto to even make a remotely decent dent in a hammer warrior…

Basically all mesmers have going for them now is some variant of a PU build.

I think one of the main reasons why Shatter Mesmer has fallen off in tPvP is not because of the lack of burst but rather Thieves can do better defensively because of their better access to stealth while maintaining high burst/sustain damage similar to a shatter mesmer.

But before shatter mesmers could one shot thieves now its like “oh haha only half my health stealth!” Bam oneshot backstab HS hero combo.

I don’t know about one-shotting thieves I think you can still do that given that thieves don’t spam evasive skills (like SB #3) or shadowstep away. Mesmer shatter burst is still deadly like scepter/dagger elementalist burst but they’re hard countered by thieves simply because thieves have more active defensive skills with their easy access evades from weapon skills and better access to stealth.

I know that feeling myself, recently I’ve bursted a thief in hotjoin down to 20% HP (I was sitting at 100%) but he was able to shadow step away and go to stealth. I definitely thought he’d run away so I walked off casually then got bursted by that same thief using 3 buttons (steal + backstab + HS) which ripped off all my health.

jportell.2197:

Simple solution…
1. Give mesmers their good burst back.
2. Un-do one of the nerfs to blurred frenzy (IDC which)
3. Give mesmers better AOE support (mantras can suck it.)

Right now PU is the only decent mesmer build. Even hard core shatter lovers like osicat have given up on shatter because ANET has gutted mesmer burst inside and out. Now a shatter mesmer has to play a keyboard concerto to even make a remotely decent dent in a hammer warrior…

Basically all mesmers have going for them now is some variant of a PU build.

I think one of the main reasons why Shatter Mesmer has fallen off in tPvP is not because of the lack of burst but rather Thieves can do better defensively because of their better access to stealth while maintaining high burst/sustain damage similar to a shatter mesmer.

Low Risk High Reward. Great build for 1v1 or more fights but not that useful in tPvP.

As for those people saying saying that mesmer stealth skills have generally high cooldowns, who told you that you need to pop all your stealths in the span of 10 seconds.

borya.2964:

“They can build for it but they don’t use it because Spirit/Bunker is far more useful in pvp. As for WvW, everybody knows how underpowered they are.”

But there is no viable chill spec for ranger like necro can do.

This is what I’m saying. They have good access to Chill Condition through Axe and utility skills along with sigil of hydromancy so they can build for it but it is not viable because they’re better off with other builds. Same goes with elementalist, they can build for chill skills (dagger/focus plus Water Signet and sigil of hydromancy) but they’d be good for nothing but chill. The reason why it is viable to necros is because their Chill skills goes along with their viable builds.

borya.2964:

“Rangers can easily perma chill.”

No, they can’t, neither easily nor perma.

They can build for it but they don’t use it because Spirit/Bunker is far more useful in pvp. As for WvW, everybody knows how underpowered they are.

calavel.6249:

Kyon.9735:

I throw out the official Wiki links at you because these are facts and *facts are always more reliable than opinions.

A list of skills doesn’t tell you anything. It doesn’t tell you if those skills are often used or not, whether they are considered good by that class or not, whether they have synergy with traits/gear or not. That they are available in the game does not mean that they are a good choice. You could run a human character with all the racial prayer skills, but it would make no sense as there is no synergy with anything.

Your argument was that only Necros have decent and reliable access to chill, so I gave you a link showing all weapon skills, utilities, and special effects that grants chill. You said it yourself, Rangers and Elementalists have plenty of access to chill as well and they generally have decent cooldown too. But why is it that chill gets more noticed on necros? Because their most usual role is to spam conditions and that includes chill. Elementalists and Rangers have the ability to spam chill as well if they build for it but they’re better off with Power Builds or Bunker builds (for rangers).

calavel.6249:

Well, in my opinion reliable chill is limited to necros and eles. I’ve yet to hear you address this other than flat out disagreeing and offering no arguments either way apart from a wiki link. Yes, it’s a very impressive list of ranger pet skills, but unless you get assaulted by an arctic zoo, it’s not going to be a real problem.

And may I repeat myself once again and state that weapon swapping in general is a huge deal and that 4 weapon sets instead of 2 is an even larger one? Is this also to be completely ignored in this discussion or is it simply that anything that messes with Attunement is OP and must be removed/nerfed? Because if that is the argument here, I might as well stop now.

I throw out the official Wiki links at you because these are facts and facts are always more reliable than opinions.

It has already been stated in the Wiki itself, Elementalists have 4 attunements because they don’t have weapon swap mechanic, they have the lowest HP and armor in the game with no active defenses like stealth or clones, and Elementalists have high cooldown skills in general.

calavel.6249:

Kyon.9735:

Yet it shows there are other classes that has decent and reliable access to chill contradictory to what you claim.

Care about giving your comments on Anet justifying that Eles don’t have “weapon swap” because they have “Attunement Swap” as a substitute?

No, it shows eles and necros have reliable access to chill. Again, I don’t know if eles chilling eles is a problem or not, I don’t really see it mentioned specifically anywhere, only necro. The rest are either long cooldown skills, pet skills, random procs or skills no one uses outside gimmick builds. I know little about rangers so I don’t know if axe is commonly used, but I’ve never seen one

Regarding the A-net quote…
I really think it depends on how you read it. What you seem to get out of it is that Attunement is a replacement for the weapon swapping mechanic of other classes. What I get out of it is that because eles have Attunement – which is arguably better than actual weapon swapping – you get punished by not having weapon swapping. Chill is part of that punishment, but of course there is always room for adjustment and as I mentioned earlier, I’m not a huge fan of the way chill works right now in general.

Never did I state that necros specifically counters Ele. I’m talking about Chill in general, not class specific.

Punishment? You can view it that way but that means Elementalists were already punished by not having weapon swap. Now add Chill effect and that’s not punishment anymore but rather a sabotage.

Like Ganathar said, Thief Initiatives not getting affected by Chill is game breaking but Attunement Swap should be fine with it? Yeah, pure logic.

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Many classes can trait for lower weapon swapping, just as we can trait for lower swapping. But our swaps — still stuck at an incredibly long 9 seconds — aren’t even reduced by much. Sorry, swing and a miss there.

Elementalists are hit doubly hard for our access to extra skills, when our access ALREADY comes at a very, very high price.

You quite obviously do not play ele. 2/10 for effort.

Warrior is the only class that can trait for actual weapon swapping CD; they can reduce it to 5s. All other classes apart from eles and engineers are stuck at 10 base. Also, your “weapon swap” is not “stuck” at 9 seconds in the same way that other classes are stuck at 5 or 10 because you have 4 “weapons sets”. You are once again ignoring the fact that Attunement isn’t just weapon swapping and shouldn’t be treated in exactly the same way. Swapping is something that is highly restricted outside warriors, and for a good reason.

Isn’t the real point in this “weapon swap” mechanic you’re trying to point out is that Elementalists need to trait 30 points to get that 9 second Attunement Swap cooldown? And Attunement Swapping aka “weapon swapping” is the Elementalist’s Class Mechanic.

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Calavel you’re completely off base. They’re in the F1-4 skill slots, but they’re not considered skills.

This is proof because if so, reducing 20% in earth would reduce attunement swap earth. And since they’re not skills like our skill bar skills, they shouldn’t be affected by chill like our skill bar skills.

Should engie toolbelt skills get this change? No! They are real skills with real effects.
Should engie kits get this change? Yes! They are the only wep swapping mechanics they have as well.

Like Ganathar said, every class can trait for effects on swap, and so can ele. Otherwise we get nothing just like everybody else.

Sorry, but I’m still not convinced. I see I was a bit too quick claiming that only warriors can trait for weapon swap effects, I forgot about engineers and thieves and had no idea rangers could trait for it.
But the fact that Attunement is both weapon swapping and class mechanic (traitable for 30% CD reduction like any class mechanic) obviously makes it different from regular weapon swapping. Saying Attunement should be subject to exactly the same effects and limitations as regular weapon swapping doesn’t seem right to me. It’s not exactly the same and it never will be.

Kyon.9735:

And your statement about Necros being the only class to have easy reliable access to chill is false. It does not give justice that Elementalist is hard countered by one single condition.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled

All I see are necro skills, ele skills, a bunch of specific ranger pet skills, a ranger axe skill, Freeze Grenade and either random condition skills or skills that are never used. Oh, and a joke elite. Cute.
The only one that seem marginally reliable outside necros and eles is the ranger axe skill. Is eles getting chilled by eles a problem? Isn’t it sort of countered by the fact that they can both chill?

If it makes any difference, I think chilled is completely out of place in its current form. Messing with skill recharge is not an ele or a necro’s job, that’s what mesmers do (well, used to do).
I think they should rework confusion to be a timing-based non-spammable effect that increases skill recharge(s) if the target uses a skill whiled affected and add something different to chilled (15% heal penalty maybe? Fumble? I dunno).

Yet it shows there are other classes that has decent and reliable access to chill contradictory to what you claim.

Care about giving your comments on Anet justifying that Eles don’t have “weapon swap” because they have “Attunement Swap” as a substitute?

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elementalist

When one of these attunement skills is activated, the weapon skills of the player change based on the equipped weapon(s) and the chosen element. Because these attunements can be freely swapped even while in combat, effectively giving access to four different weapon skill sets, elementalists do not have access to weapon swapping like most other professions.

It is stated here that the Elementalists don’t have access to “weapon swapping” because Attunement Swapping is considered as the elementalist’s “weapon swap” which gives them access to other weapon skills.

They also have the lowest base health in comparison to other professions, so they have to make up for their lack of durability under fire by managing their attunements and skills carefully and avoid putting themselves in dangerous situations.

The effects of chill on Attunement swapping greatly contradicts this description of elementalists. Chill on attunement swapping tends to lock out an elementalist from an attunement they’ve recently swapped out of much longer which greatly hampers their ability to “adapt”.

I don’t understand why you’re comparing Attunement Swapping to Toolbelt skills. Engineers change “weapon sets” by using Weapon Kits, not Toolbelt skills.

And your statement about Necros being the only class to have easy reliable access to chill is false. It does not give justice that Elementalist is hard countered by one single condition.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled

@Verificus
Regarding s/x eles, I’m pretty sure you haven’t encountered a good one with the way how you regard them. There is a reason why D/D is not viable at all in high level competitive PvP but scepter is (but still at the bottom of the food chain). Since you want this to be an exclusive D/D discussion, I’m all for it.

I do agree that Katniss’ Power/Attack is really low considering that he doesn’t use Sigil of Battle to make up for it. But then again, it depends on his playstyle. His build is tanky enough to fight prolonged battles but one big disadvantage of playing a prolonged battle using an ele is that your cantrips have very high CD in general. You’ll end up with yourself backed to a wall without any way out from time to time.

Regarding Boon Duration, it’s really depends on the player’s preference. One reason many eles opt for 45% boon duration is that being too dependent on boons can be a big disadvantage especially now that many players would have boon strips. They’d rather maximize their stats than rely on might/boon stacking which can be easily stripped or stolen by your enemy.

And as for Fury uptime, 45% boon duration is more than enough since you are using Zephyr’s boon and Arcane Fury.

Verificus.4320:

This is for wvw roaming, obviously. No barbarian gear here..

In wvw there is only 1 viable build and that is cantrips..

I think this is kind of an over exaggeration. It is mostly D/D builds who take 3 cantrips because their survivability for a melee build is astonishingly bad compared to other melee builds of other classes.

If you look at it closely, almost all melee weapon sets of other classes have either Evades, blocks, or a combination of both on a very tolerable cool down. They either have tons of evades and blocks or they have natural medium~high HP/armor or access to stealth. Now look at Eles, lowest HP and armor in the game. Main hand dagger has 0 access to evades for a whole year (will be given 1 on the march patch). Off hand dagger has one evade on Updraft on a 40 second cool down. Dagger main hand offers no survivability outside of Shocking Aura which is easily contered by stability. This is why people are forced to get defensive cantrips.

As for s/x builds, they usually go for “kill-before-you-get-killed” builds. When I go for Scepter I usually go with 2 arcanes and Lightning Flash. The blinds, although Dust Devil is a bit unreliable, are your bread and butter for survivability. While it is weaker than Evade (because you can only blind very limited number of enemies), it is decent enough for a ranged weapon.

hihey.1075:

Kyon.9735:

I agree, it’s really needed. Whether you play elementalist or not, it doesn’t give the player time to react until they realize they’re being hit by 5k~15k Metoeor Shower crits in pvp/wvw.

1) Don’t zerg (in WvW).
2) 3,5s of casting animation, interruptable and punish-able (in pvp).

Anything else you’d like to know?

Am I supposed to laugh or what?

Oh please, I’d like to go to your PVP world where Staff Eles would free cast in the middle of a cap point where everybody can see them instead of positioning himself someplace where he won’t be interrupted during that 3.5 secs. Or do you play that way? Go inside a cap point and start casting Meteor Shower where your enemies can stop you with 1 CC or even get instagibbed by thieves?

P.S. I don’t even join zergs anymore. I just go to WvW to solo/2~5 man roam with friends.

Phaeton.9582:

Razor.6392:

ArthurDent.9538:

Honestly this could be a somewhat decent trait, since one of the big reasons why eles don’t like going full glass is to avoid being insta gibbed by a stealth user. They will still die to a breeze and fire will still be lacking in survivability, but at least have a way to counter the back stab other than pray you hit with aoe.

No. It’s a horribly designed trait. Words cannot express how bad it is.

A grandmaster trait must impact a class’ gameplay. They must be significant, feel rewarding and be effective in multiple scenarios.

This trait is not only situational, but it also does it’s job extremely poorly. So what if you cancelled their stealth when attuning to fire? You can’t do it again for 9 seconds minimum, and they can still damage you (especially mesmers). Not to mention how they can re-stealth much faster than you can de-stealth them.

I already said this but against the other 6 classes, even against eles this trait would be complete trash. Even more situational for revealing enemies that are ocasionally stealthed by mesmers or thieves.

You gotta understand that eles are known to work the way they do because of their reliance on water and on second place arcana. It’s as if some traits were already engraved into eles gameplay. If you plan on giving those traits up, then the reward / tradeoff should at the very least come on par. You lose a LOT of defense and survivability (even damage), then you should get a lot of power in return, or at least something other than a pathetic and situational reveal.

Sorry but I don’t think any decent elementalist could rate this trait idea as ‘mediocre’, not even that adjective would cut it.

blah blah blah water blah blah arcana

Situational is how skill cap builds work. It doesn’t make it weak.

He gave valid points on how this trait will not work. You give him “blah blah blah”. Yep, this discussion is going somewhere.

I agree, it’s really needed. Whether you play elementalist or not, it doesn’t give the player time to react until they realize they’re being hit by 5k~15k Metoeor Shower crits in pvp/wvw.

Forestgreen.7981:

Did they forget the god-ele bunker best dps/bunker/escape d/d builds? You know the one where 2 d/d eles can fight off 30 players in WvW. Someone should link the video to remind what eles were before they were nerfed.

That old GW2 where people didn’t know how to use CCs. Where Omnomberry Pies didnt have an ICD and would give classes with enough crit chance godlike sustain that made 15 v 30 possible. Where Signet of Restoration would proc like crazy when dodging or using certain skills. Where elementalists can zip in and zip out of combat using a bugged 1550 range Ride The Lightning.

No, after all the fixes especially to SoR and RtL that won’t happen anymore.

zinavlad.7581:

it should be so, the elements have too many advantages, escape and resistance.

I’m not sure about this. Elementalists in PvP/WvW would be really survivable if this is true. Even if you switch attunements you will still have the effects of chill which already greatly hampers the long cooldown skills of elementalists outside of Scepter Air.

Razor.6392:

Even if they deleted every other class but mesmer and thief, I would still NEVER put 30 points in fire.

This. I’d wait until there are more decent Adept and Master traits even before going Grand Master. Using 30 points (and wasting another 20 on the way to GM) just to counter specific skills isn’t really ideal. Not to mention this would mean wasting points which usually goes to Water/Earth lines for more survivability (eles are pigeon-holed in Water/Earth if they don’t want to get instagibbed by Power builds in WvW/PvP)

I’m actually happy that they’re trying to buff auras (if the notes are real). I think they might still buff Magnetic Aura in the future because it’s still pretty weak for a 30 second CD skill

Arccai.4870:

Interesting, could you perhaps name why its better to go with 30/10/10/10/10, what traits will increase the damage?
I only see a huge loss of Precision and Crit Damage by skipping Air.

Appreciate an answer!

I think its leaning on 30/20/10/10 then, for both 10% dmg.

And also, what sigil was recommended in weapon? Fire, is that Aoe really doing any good?
Or 5% damage from Force, seems good.

Some (if not most) LF builds take 30 in fire for Persisting Flames (keep blasting fire fields while AA chaining your LF for perma Fury). You also get an additional 180 Precision and 5% crit damage at lvl 80 from LH.

It’s a good sign. Anet finally realized that the old PVP Ele builds they nerfed to the ground were not really that OP so they’re now reverting little by little. Now let’s wait and hope for a global buff.

Grimreaper.5370:

Kyon.9735:

I agree that it’s currently underpowered and completely ignored but making it 4 seconds will make Fresh Air builds race cars (I think it doesn’t have an ICD right now)

Fresh air has a 5 second ICD. One with Air’s “superspeed” doesn’t make you thaaat much faster, but its noticeable. It would be nice to keep super speed up 3/4th of the time, Ele does need some kind of drastic buffs to enter the meta for sPvP and even WvW. I honestly think giving Eles One with Air a great majority of the time would be completely fair if it was done in a way that catered to d/d build mainly, there is hardly any range on d/d so the ele has to get pretty close to you, allowing them to potentially get hit.

I meant One with Air. But yeah, Super Speed paired with Fresh Air won’t save you from thieves but will help a lot in closing/widening the gap between you and your target. 4s of Superspeed itself without Fresh Air can make D/D have a more reliable gap closer than RtL.

But still I don’t think 4s of Super speed will happen even with the 5s ICD of Fresh Air because melee builds (cough warriors cough) will be crying about Elementalists’ mobility again. Nobody messes with the golden class.

Sunshine.4680:

Are you all playing long range staff builds or what? I hear ele has lots of issues with low hp and low armor so everyone is wrong and ele is 100% fine with how they are?

I play s/x and staff in PVE because from my own experience it outdps main hand dagger a lot. In instances where RNG and culling isn’t an issue, low HP and armor isn’t really much of an issue. Hard hitting spells are usually easily telegraphed so you need to dodge it, not tank it.

The problem in LA event is culling and RNG AoEs. There will be many cases where you are able to properly dodge one AoE but you land in another AoE spell. In PVE if you get killed by an attack which you are able to see coming, it’s your fault. LA is an AoE RNG and culling festival.

In PVP/WvW though, elementalists has a lot if issues which may concern the low HP and Armor.

ElexOrieN.2130:

cheese.4739:

Okay, it’s just l2p issues on the part of OP, who continues to just really want to get annoyed at people for not hating on their class.

L2p has nothing to do with broken game mechanics. Typical ele fanboy ignoring facts.

cheese.4739:

If you’re struggling in dungeons, you’re not playing builds right or you’re not stacking well, so it’s l2p.

Spiderqueen and Kohler kill ele’s when they stack because don’t have the health or armor to survive stacking. Once again you completely missed the topic.

cheese.4739:

If you’re struggling in open-world PvE events, or zerg-tastic content like LA right now, you’re either: running builds that are far too glassy for the content; not fighting at an appropriate range; or not backing off when you should and are just trying to facetank. Also l2p.

Vitality and toughness don’t help. I sad that many times before but you don’t listen.

cheese.4739:

dungeons: stacking. If you run away from the stack and pull all the aggro, it’s your fault if you die and it’s your fault if your group kicks you for messing things up. For certain foes, mostly bosses, their aggro isn’t really understood and they may pick folks at random or due to dps ability or due to vit or toughness. Do you know what else your group is running and exactly how the boss decides who to attack?

Spiderqueen and Kohler down/kill me because i stack with others. Ele does not have the health and armor that is needed to survive stacking. Seriously everyone of your posts is worthless, all you do is post random stuff that has nothing to do with topic. Get yourself a working brain and stop trolling kid.

I was having a big problem with those 2 AC bosses too at first. One thing I learned from dying a lot was to use my dodges to its full potential. My dungeon build has Renewing Stamina which allows me to have permanent Vigor. If you drop FGS, you have a total of 3 evasions (2 dodges, 1 from Fiery Whirl). Save your dodges until Kohler starts spinning. As for Spiderqueen, I don’t drop my FGS there. You’ll have enough dodges with vigor. You also have to make sure that your group have enough DPS to avoid prolonged fights.

Also, bring enough condi clears because the bleeds in AC stack up fast and really hurt if left alone.

oZii.2864:

ElexOrieN.2130:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Everybody DOES want eles.

Nope warrior, guardian and mesmer are the most wanted classes in dungeons.

Go check speedclear vids, they’re all eles.

There are also speed clear videos of all the other classes, so what’s your point? Your just another deluded ele fanboy.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The ele is the straight DPS class, they hit absurdly hard but also go down very quickly.

And that is the elementalists biggest design mistake.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

As for warriors? That HB number you’re so proud of? Lava Font outdamages it.

Nope once again. Hundred blades ticks HP down faster. Also elementalists problem isn’t the damage, but that the class has no survivability. You have just like the others before you completely missed the topic.

Guanglai Kangyi has done is research on this trust me. I am not even a big PvE guy but I know who he is and he is one of the best PvE theorycrafters out there. When he said that lava font out damages 100blades he didn’t say that just because he said it because the math says so. I also don’t think he mains Ele as I seen most of his posts over in the Warrior or Guardian forums.

Yes I am on all the forums alot. Except engineer and ranger since I don’t have those classes and you can tell that people respect his research even on reddit.

On topic this thread is about the LA escape event right now. I started on my Ele and just run it on my necro now surviving isnt the problem (I’m running staff) it’s damage and you can’t really see so the necro is more tag proof then ele this is running mostly condition damage with rampager trinkets I’m am pulling in 3x more bags in the even on my necro.

We (at least me) are not dissing off his credibility. What I’m trying to say is that elementalists in PVE aren’t in a bad spot right now, they’re actually one of the best. In PVE specifically dungeons, having low health and low armor doesn’t really hinder elementalists from shining because all you need to do is to dodge hard hitting spells which can be easily telegraphed in dungeons.

In other large world events especially Wurm and Tequatl, there are organized groups (like TTS) and they like having elementalists (for the frost bow) on their side. Being organized can make it easier for the whole team to see the AoE circles and stack up boons and healing.

However, LA Living Story is a very big Zerg event and it can be near impossible to see all the AoE circles on the ground along with the fact that culling exists which prevents you seeing everything. As it is, I don’t think people can properly organize events such as this. People are scattered everywhere making it hard to see how many AoE circles you’re stepping on.

This is my personal opinion, I think it has always been easier to tag mobs using a necromancer than an elementalist. But yeah, Necromancer’s large HP pool and 2nd HP pool helps a lot in an RNG festival like LA.

I agree that it’s currently underpowered and completely ignored but making it 4 seconds will make Fresh Air builds race cars (I think it doesn’t have an ICD right now)

ElexOrieN.2130:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Everybody DOES want eles.

Nope warrior, guardian and mesmer are the most wanted classes in dungeons.

Go check speedclear vids, they’re all eles.

There are also speed clear videos of all the other classes, so what’s your point? Your just another deluded ele fanboy.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The ele is the straight DPS class, they hit absurdly hard but also go down very quickly.

And that is the elementalists biggest design mistake.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

As for warriors? That HB number you’re so proud of? Lava Font outdamages it.

Nope once again. Hundred blades ticks HP down faster. Also elementalists problem isn’t the damage, but that the class has no survivability. You have just like the others before you completely missed the topic.

Dude, just chill.

The day when elementalists get auto kicked from dungeons are over. Elementalist along with guardian is actually among the top choices for organized dungeon groups now as long as they know how and when to properly stack might and use FGS. You can say that Warriors and Guardians are “Pug-Proof” for random dungeon groups because they’re really easy to play compared to elementalist.

I don’t think many people consider an Elementalist’s low HP and armor as a big issue in PVE. Everyone goes full zerker and what you need to do is to just dodge one shot kill skills. This is the reason why Crit Damage is getting nerfed, just maximize your damage while avoiding, not tanking, life threatening attacks.

ElexOrieN.2130:

Kyon.9735:

Then how do you know that they really are focusing you? Like I said, there will be lots of players in there. You can’t really know if monsters really are focusing you or you were just having a bad RNG day or you have l2p positioning issues. It’s not like you are the only single person who downs in the event, is it?

I can see when lots of trash mobs are chasing after me ignoring the warriors etc. standing much closer to the mobs than me. The mobs run past other classes even when those other classes are attacking those mobs. Warriors can spam hundred blades on an elite molten dredge without being attacked by that dredge, instead that dredge goes right after me if i just hit him with a fireball at 1200 range. That how every mob in this game reacts, they always go for the elementalist first ignoring other classes completely.

I don’t think there’s a real basis here that Elementalists are the number 1 targets in the Aggro table. People can claim the same thing on any other class. I down a lot as well in LA using my Elementalist and Engineer but I see every single class down as much.

Silinsar.6298:

Kyon.9735:

If they make it cancel skills on swap, they might as well delete Elementalist from the game because it will prevent elementalists from chaining skills. Imagine a scepter elementalist cast Dragon’s Tooth or Phoenix. He has to wait for Dragon’s Tooth to hit or Phoenix to come back before he can do anything else which is absurd. Almost all elementalist skills have delayed effect (especially staff) and this will break the class completely.

You are mistaking something. Weapon swapping just cancels skills currently casting, it doesn’t make (delayed) effects of already casted skills disappear. You would be able to swap right after the cast of dragon’s tooth/phoenix is finished, not after the effects completed. Combos that would no longer be able to execute would include something like casting churning earth and then switching to air to get shock aura to stun attacking enemies. Or casting ER and switching to earth midcast for traited stability.

No, I don’t think I am. The main reason why Arcane Fury only lasts 2 seconds is that Elementalists should learn how to do the so called “Attunement Dance” and avoid staying in one single attunement for a very long time. After you cast meteor, you usually wait for it to finish to channel then cast Tornado for increased stats and critical chance OR you swap attunements so you get fury and prep for your next spell. Elementalists don’t usually stay in the same attunement to wait for a spell to finish channeling. A few of the most common examples for Dagger are Drake’s Breath and Cone of Cold and like you mentioned, Churning Earth.

ElexOrieN.2130:

Kyon.9735:

I don’t think that it’s only elementalists who’s having problems surviving in LA. Of course, you can’t L2P RNG issues. LA events are too messy for everyone to notice the red aoe circles 100%.

It’s not the AOE’s that kill me constantly, it’s for example those Etherblade veterans & elites/champions who all focus in on me and attack no one else but me and the other elementalists.

Then how do you know that they really are focusing you? Like I said, there will be lots of players in there. You can’t really know if monsters really are focusing you or you were just having a bad RNG day or you have l2p positioning issues. It’s not like you are the only single person who downs in the event, is it?

I don’t think that it’s only elementalists who’s having problems surviving in LA. Of course, you can’t L2P RNG issues. LA events are too messy for everyone to notice the red aoe circles 100%.

It will definitely make conjures better and people will surely make builds revolving around conjures. If this ever happens I’m pretty sure people will make combos revolving around Frost Bow and Deep Freeze.

One big problem is it will make Elementalist playstyle very similar to Engineers and their kits and Anet wants to avoid having different classes with similar playstyle.

If anything, I’d be really happy if conjures would stop using charges if you spam auto attacks and hit nothing lol.

Silinsar.6298:

I’m curious what you think about attunement swaps canceling casts, Mbelch. Because if attunements become “real” weapon swaps, they’ll most likely become self-interrupts too.

Elementalist skills usually have long casting/channeling time outside of Scepter Air Attunement. Elementalist playstyle is all about chaining your skills from different attunements to deal massive damage unlike most other classes that needs to click 1 button to deal massive damage.

If they make it cancel skills on swap, they might as well delete Elementalist from the game because it will prevent elementalists from chaining skills. Imagine a scepter elementalist cast Dragon’s Tooth or Phoenix. He has to wait for Dragon’s Tooth to hit or Phoenix to come back before he can do anything else which is absurd. Almost all elementalist skills have delayed effect (especially staff) and this will break the class completely.

To be honest I don’t understand why people are against removing the effect of chill on attunement swap. Attunement swapping doesn’t remove the effects of chill (unless you invest at least 20 trait points) which means your skills will still have higher cool down.

Elementalists are actually in a great place in PvE. It’s highly arguable because one of the few reasons we’re good in PvE is because of FGS + Wall combo so once FGS gets nerfed people can start saying otherwise. Low Armor/Low HP isn’t really that much of a problem in PvE as long as you dodge hard hitting skills and spells (that’s why people go full zerker gears in PvE).

In PvP though it’s the complete opposite. Elementalists have no decent condition builds, and only half-baked bunker builds so we have no choice but to go full zerk. Any zerker builds (except hambow warriors and arguably DPS medi guardians) are in a disadvantage against thieves in competitive PvP.

In WvW, full DPS or Staff Support Elementalists are loved by your zergs. You’ll see few roamers using D/x and S/x from time to time but just like PvP, eles of any build are hard countered by thieves.

TL;DR – Yes, we are still viable especially in PvE and WvW zerg wars.

I stopped using Signet of Restoration ever since the condi-meta started. Spamming Auto-attacks hurt even more if you have confusion applied. Also, Ether Renewal became the “ideal” heal for eles though it is easily countered by hard CCs.

phaeris.7604:

Warrior – 392/second passive, active 3275, cooldown 20 seconds. cast time 1 1/4 second.

Elementalist -168/cast (so at max auto attack you’d heal 336/second), active 3275, cooldown 25 seconds, cast time 1 second.

The only “logic” I can see in Anet’s design of the two signets is that Warriors have more HP, less access to Regen, and needs higher heal % per second than eles. I’m not sure though if it can justify that a Warrior’s Healing Signet doesn’t need that much healing power to be effective and have lower Active cooldown for .25 secs longer cast time.

BlackBeard.2873:

Chill is a must-cleanse for an ele, as is weakness and confusion.

To fix the first problem, please make “stop, drop, and roll” an adept-tier trait.

Making cleansing fire not suck would help too.

Agreed. “Stop, drop, and roll” is not on the same level as other Master traits. I think “Shards of Ice” should be reworked/replaced too.

Bran.7425:

Kyon.9735:

It’s pretty rare to see D/D eles in pvp too and Boon Duration Runes are somewhat ignored because they have lower duration than in PvE/WvW.

From what I’ve been reading and from the impression I got from the Ready Up the above quote needs a bit of editing. “It’s pretty rare to see eles in pvp…”

Maybe is it a better question to ask why are there fewer D/D elementalist in PvE/WvW. I can only guess that in WvW staff is the superior tool for the perception of the content. As for PvE I have not at clue there I do not play elementalist for anything other that getting alts of different armor weights/race right now working on a human elementalist for that purpose.

Yes, there are few eles in pvp. I only pointed out D/D because the topic is about boon duration and mostly D/D eles use it.

From my own experience, why are there few D/D eles in PvE/WvW?
PvE – Staff and Scepter/x offer better overall damage and might stacking than Dagger main hand.
WvW – Staff is superior for zerg wars. You’ll find a couple of S/x and D/D eles roaming alone or with groups. Eles are countered really hard by the mass produced thieves in WvW.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Kyon.9735:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Chaith.8256:

Nova Stiker.8396:

The point is, low recharge invincibility + glass cannon builds has to end as skilled players know exactly when and how to abuse their get out of damage free cards and return favor with massive damage.

It GREATLY limits high end PvP to favor classes with low recharge, damage denying skills that can dish out major damage.

The getting of out damage for X seconds free buttons with high damage needs to end for every class.

Glass Engineers simply don’t exist in competitive tPvP. Countered too hard by Thieves, Warriors, and Necromancers.

Glass Necromancers don’t exist in competitive tPvP either. Deathly perception? It might be good if you could actually run that build without getting mowed down by Thieves and Warriors.

I stopped reading after that. I’m talking about competitive PvP, not hot join.

tPvP is NOTHING but either glass/decap engineers, glass power necros, a single thief and one or two bunker guardians.

Now, thieves are definitely good for stopping any glass build but it’s part of the meta. You want to have one thief spiking people

There is also no such thing as a Warrior mowing in tPvP. I stomp Warriors all the time on my ‘underpowered’ Elementalist. Nerf pin down and boom, Warriors balanced and I might leave Lyssa Runes, the reduction/change to Healing Signet is utterly pointless in my opinion.

If you are a glass necromancer or engineer getting stomped by warriors, that is sad.

Funny how you don’t know who this “guy” (Chaith) you’re replying to is since you’re talking about competitive tPVP.

I’ve haven’t seen a single Power Engi for the past 2 weeks in tPVP. Most are decap/bunkers. Eles? They’re basically considered “dead” in tPVP because they’re countered really hard by thieves (shatter mesmers are getting fewer too). There have been a lot more HamBow warriors too and I wouldn’t call them glassy because they have at least 20 points in Defense paired with natural Heavy armor and high HP while dishing out strong damage.

Chaith can never beat me in a duel and you cannot either. I know that for a fact.

“Fact” without proofs? Ok, I’m done here in this thread. Seems like you’re just QQ’ing cuz you got owned. Nothing good comes out from people with this kind of attitude.

Bran.7425:

Kyon.9735:

People can argue how much boon duration Eles need. Some will say 45%, some will say 60%. And as far as I know the only build that’s usually locked to Boon Duration is D/D. Of course, Anet is not stopping eles from using 6/6 rune sets.

If you’re gonna call an ele “nerf”, it might be because of Crit Damage nerf. Eles have no decent condition builds so they’re forced to use Power builds. It’s gonna be a lot harder now to kill bunker condis given that they were hard to kill even before the crit damage nerf. But hey, every power builds of every class gets “nerfed” too.

Unless this is all focused on WvW engagement then I think the overall ‘crit damage nerf’ is being exaggerated as I understood it the numbers for s/tpvp are to remain unchanged by the advent of Ferocity (why it couldn’t have just stayed prowess is beyond me).

That’s for WvW/PvE since sPvP won’t change. Even in PvE most people either run s/x or staff and rely on Power builds, not boon duration. It’s pretty rare to see D/D eles in pvp too and Boon Duration Runes are somewhat ignored because they have lower duration than in PvE/WvW.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Chaith.8256:

Nova Stiker.8396:

The point is, low recharge invincibility + glass cannon builds has to end as skilled players know exactly when and how to abuse their get out of damage free cards and return favor with massive damage.

It GREATLY limits high end PvP to favor classes with low recharge, damage denying skills that can dish out major damage.

The getting of out damage for X seconds free buttons with high damage needs to end for every class.

Glass Engineers simply don’t exist in competitive tPvP. Countered too hard by Thieves, Warriors, and Necromancers.

Glass Necromancers don’t exist in competitive tPvP either. Deathly perception? It might be good if you could actually run that build without getting mowed down by Thieves and Warriors.

I stopped reading after that. I’m talking about competitive PvP, not hot join.

tPvP is NOTHING but either glass/decap engineers, glass power necros, a single thief and one or two bunker guardians.

Now, thieves are definitely good for stopping any glass build but it’s part of the meta. You want to have one thief spiking people

There is also no such thing as a Warrior mowing in tPvP. I stomp Warriors all the time on my ‘underpowered’ Elementalist. Nerf pin down and boom, Warriors balanced and I might leave Lyssa Runes, the reduction/change to Healing Signet is utterly pointless in my opinion.

If you are a glass necromancer or engineer getting stomped by warriors, that is sad.

Funny how you don’t know who this “guy” (Chaith) you’re replying to is since you’re talking about competitive tPVP.

I’ve haven’t seen a single Power Engi for the past week in tPVP. Most are decap/bunkers while there are some condi nades build. Eles? They’re basically considered “dead” in tPVP because they’re countered really hard by thieves (shatter mesmers are getting fewer too). There have been a lot more HamBow warriors too and I wouldn’t call them glassy because they have at least 20 points in Defense paired with natural Heavy armor and high HP while dishing out strong damage.

People can argue how much boon duration Eles need. Some will say 45%, some will say 60%. And as far as I know the only build that’s usually locked to Boon Duration is D/D. Of course, Anet is not stopping eles from using 6/6 rune sets.

If you’re gonna call an ele “nerf”, it might be because of Crit Damage nerf. Eles have no decent condition builds so they’re forced to use Power builds. It’s gonna be a lot harder now to kill bunker condis given that they were hard to kill even before the crit damage nerf. But hey, every power builds of every class gets “nerfed” too.

runeblade.7514:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

runeblade.7514:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

Ha.
Hahaha.
This is pretty much exactly like saying, “your build doesn’t do enough damage? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Banners”

After looking at the warrior trait page for like ten minutes, I couldn’t really find any traits I wouldn’t like to steal for my ele, which is kind of disturbing, outside of the above.

Seriously though, you don’t point out one of our single worst traits to say we have ways of dealing with a specific condition, especially when you ignore the entire argument.
It’s not about ways to deal with chill, it’s about the fact that chill hurts eles more than any other class by a huge margin.

Not really, it is more like, are you being crippled all the time? Bring Dogged March, or are you being CC all the time? Bring stability.

You say that chill hurts ele in a large margin. I counter that argument with a way to deal with it. So no, I didn’t ignore the entire argument, only you ignored your counter argument to deal with chill.

You are comparing a cheap 10 point Adept trait (which is arguably a “Best in Slot” trait) on a mandatory trait line to a 20 point Master trait which nobody ever uses because there are lots of better traits available at that point.

As simple as I can see it, Chill cripples Elementalists the most. You can argue that Engineers get their toolbelt skills crippled too but it’s a general knowledge that Elementalists is the class that relies most on its class mechanics (Thief class mechanic is Steal, initiative doesn’t get affected by chill). Engineers don’t use their toolbelt skills every time it is out of CD.

D/F might be better than Staff because most zergs blindly follows the Tag and mow down the enemy zerg unless you’re running a guild group and your guildies know how to play without following your pin.

With the upcoming buff (Evasion frames) to Burning Speed, D/F (mainly used for Swirling Winds and Obsidian Flesh) will be able to offer a bit more survivability than Staff for zerg mowing.

Last time I checked Sigil of Air deals more damage than Sigil of Fire (because Fire is AoE) and it’s only around 200~300 difference (Air hits for ~1200 damage while Fire hits for ~1000 damage on PVP dummies).

It will be a buff to condi builds because it is already hard for power builds to burst condi builds with how tanky they already are as of now. Power builds getting bursted by another Power build will survive a little longer now though.

As a D/D ele relying on boons, it can be pretty hard to fight a thief compared to a bursty Scepter Ele. You can’t burst thieves if they initiate on you as a D/D but you can burst them if you’re on scepter and get lucky to crit Air Attunement Swap, Lightning Strike, and an offensive arcane skill.

It gets a lot harder when you’re fighting against a thief who’s good with shadow stepping and knows when to stealth. A D/D ele can be easily get kited for days with the correct skill/stealth rotation from a thief but if you’re on scepter you can at least retaliate by swapping into air attunement and landing lightning strike and your blind. Of course you need to avoid getting instagibbed first so put in a decent amount of toughness and vitality and learn when pop your defensive utilities and blinds (if you’re on scepter).

I’m not good ele, I have a very hard time fighting thieves on D/D but I can at least give them a run for their money with scepter. A Dire Perplexity Condi D/P Thief in WvW is a different story though. They’re just really cheesy and it’s really hard to kill them.

Here’s a random tip I’ve found somewhat effective: If you know a thief is coming for you for a backstab initiation from stealth, try counting 3-4 seconds from when they went into stealth and dodge roll. If you’re on scepter, you can try dropping Phoenix point blank on your location before dodge rolling. Worked wonders for me.

Lazaar.9123:

Kyon.9735:

zapv.8051:

Darmikau.9413:

snip

Overall, condition builds and direct damage builds are well balanced from a design standpoint.

I kinda disagree with this. We won’t be in the so-called “Condi-Meta” if it was balanced.

People only call it that because they are too stubborn to change anything about their build to cleanse conditions. If you fight a condition build without reliable condition cleanse, that is your own fault. Expect all situations, adapt, and you will become a better player.

I don’t think it’s because people are just too stubborn to put condi cleanses in their builds.

People do put in condi cleanses but the rate of application is the problem. The cleanses from utility skills/traits have very long cooldowns if you compare it to the rate of how much conditions you can apply. Condis usually come from auto attack chains (paired with on crit proc traits) and weapon skills which have much lower cool down than your cleanses. Everybody who’s played a decent amount of PVP knows pretty well how fast people can stack up condis on a target even without condi duration bonuses (esp engineers, spirit rangers, and necros).

Not to mention that the strongest condi classes don’t really need as much Precision as Power builds do because they usually put in precision to proc on crit effects every once in a while. Power builds needs at least around 40% crit chance because they rely heavily on crits.

The best way to play a condi class in pvp? Get condi damage, put in a decent bit of precision so you can proc on-crit effects, stack up your vit/toughness/healing and kite your enemies. You will never run out of condis because of auto attack procs and on-crit procs but your target will run out of cleanses eventually.

The pvp amulets themselves can tell the story on how much defensive condi builds can go. Look up to Rampager/Settler amulets, they offer condi damage along with survivability. Power builds though are useless without precision and Crit Damage so you can’t opt for Soldier Amulets because they only offer Power offensively.

zapv.8051:

Darmikau.9413:

snip

Overall, condition builds and direct damage builds are well balanced from a design standpoint.

I kinda disagree with this. We won’t be in the so-called “Condi-Meta” if it was balanced.

IMO in WVvW you do need condition duration because people are running condition reduction gears to counter it. In PVP though not a lot of condi players opt for condition duration.

Dub.1273:

Kyon.9735:

• Enemy dodges = conditions previously applied keeps on ticking.

• Enemy dodges = any damage applied prior to the dodge is negated. – ?

/logic, I guess. Dodging has exactly the same impact on condition specs as on direct damage specs.

Condition cleansing hurts condition builds as much as protection hurts direct damage builds.

Usually PvP teams consist of 1 bunker, 2-3 direct damage specs, 1-2 condition damage specs.

Lol I just summarized what he said. I also said that condition ticks on dodges are ok