Guild Wars 2

I’m not trying to make this into another Eles vs Warrios comparison but…

Whirlwind Attack [Warrior Greatsword] has a 3/4 second evasion frame on a 10 second cooldown. It’s an offensive attack and a gap closer like Burning Speed but I don’t think it has become a big issue that it has evade frames.

I’m supporting the evasion frames on both Whirlwind Attack and Burning Speed because it helps both melee builds to mitigate some damage while being kited.

hihey.1075:

Kyon.9735:

yski.7642:

Why do I see mesmers complaining about evaded backstabs not interrupting stealth? Stand in your clones and the stab will hit them, revealing the thief!

Are you kidding me? a GC Ele or GC Mesmer cannot deal the same level of burst as a GC thief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOc6Lv_BYk

That’s a thief burst in aoe. Anything else I can help you with?

If this ele misses his initial burst, what’s next? The whole video showed the pros of a GC elementalist hitting his initiations perfectly. But what if he misses? Only cantrip he has is Lightning Flash. How else is he supposed to survive without access to stealth or clones?

I’m not taking away anything from that guy in the video. I believe we can all agree that he’s good because he can pull that off. But you’re only stating the PROS and leaving out the CONS.

He has Fiery Greatsword, which is the best escape in the game. And Ride the Lighting.
Are we talking about 1v1s or about instagibbing people that are unaware? Because if it is the former, then complaining because you lost a 1v1 against a full glass thief is the best example of a l2p issue.

I don’t know about FGS as the “best escape tool” in the game. His video showed him playing 1v1, 1vX, XvX but all of it only showed him doing a successful burst.

And just to be clear, you can read my earlier posts and I’m on the side that thieves don’t need damage nerf, it’s fine as it is. Sorry it’s my bad, I just realized the reason you posted it to show that eles can do the same damage a thief does. My argument doesn’t belong in this thread, it’s more of a class balancing issue.

yski.7642:

Why do I see mesmers complaining about evaded backstabs not interrupting stealth? Stand in your clones and the stab will hit them, revealing the thief!

Are you kidding me? a GC Ele or GC Mesmer cannot deal the same level of burst as a GC thief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOc6Lv_BYk

That’s a thief burst in aoe. Anything else I can help you with?

If this ele misses his initial burst, what’s next? The whole video showed the pros of a GC elementalist hitting his initiations perfectly. But what if he misses? Only cantrip he has is Lightning Flash. How else is he supposed to survive without access to stealth or clones?

I’m not taking away anything from that guy in the video. I believe we can all agree that he’s good because he can pull that off. But you’re only stating the PROS and leaving out the CONS.

keoma.5210:

Kyon.9735:

keoma.5210:

Eelementalist has access to very strong healing while have high damage as well. (Evasive arcana, cleansing water, cleansing wave). Combined with fast movement speed it is not overpowered at all…
Do you say fiery greatsword is useless? I would like such a useless skill with my necro….

Great observation. Maybe that’s why people rarely see D/D Elementalists in PVP and WvW? /sarcasm

BTW we’re talking about landspeed here so I don’t see a reason why you’re bringing that up. The previous posts are still related to landspeed, this one clearly isn’t.

But if you insist… Eles (and most/all other classes) need to gear for Healing Power if they want to have decent healing, maybe at least 400~500 (for eles at least). Warriors just need 1 signet to get more than decent sustain heal, no need to gear up for Healing power at all.

I see many elementalists in wvw, and they have got decent land speed.
They can leave almost any fight at will.
What are you talking about exactly? The two classes are different, they need different build and equipment? Great observation.

Distaste.4801:

keoma.5210:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Every profession should have some strong and weak areas. If one profession is the best or second best in almost all the areas, why to ever play the other professions?

Please link me the warrior build what is the best, or second best in each and every area of the game.

He didn’t say there was one build that did it all, he said that warriors have access to builds that can all be the best or second best. Other classes are very limited in what specs they have that are competitive. Warriors can build for healing from shouts, banners for group utility, extremely high DPS, conditions, etc. All of which are equal to or much better than what other classes can offer.

Being best in everything is obviously overpowered.
But as you say, one build is good in one thing. Different build is good in other thing. Every builds have weakness.
Seems balanced.

What eles, Staff eles? lol. Mister Fiery Greatsword’s 180s CD would like to have a talk with you regarding “leaving any fight at will”.

Carighan.6758:

Kyon.9735:

With all due respect, I believe this is an issue in both PVP and PVE content of the game. Eles and rangers need more love.

The problem is not whether Eles or Rangers need love in PvP, the problem is that PvP-balance is – due to it’s small scale – ~diametrically opposed to balance outside of PvP.

Even a balance split would barely make a dent because the very underlying design ideas of the classes need to be different.

As such, the problem really comes down to what you want to balance. “Interesting concepts and powerful design” (PvE/WvW-zerg) vs “Low complexity, high depth skill-based fight win” (sPvP/WvW 1v1)

I’m pretty sure I didn’t say that eles and rangers only need help in PVP. I said that in general.

Wintel.4873:

Lets keep this PvE-centric please.

Elementalist in PvP is a whole other can of worms where stuff like roles, cooldowns, telegraphs, and cast times starts getting coming into play. I don’t remember the last time I actually hit someone with Dragon’s Tooth or Lava Font in PvP.

Suddenly a Thief opened on me! I proceeded to push buttons but found myself in Vapor Form…huh? Why am I in Vapor Form? Oh, I’m using downed abilities…which means I already died.
But that’s another story for another time :P

With all due respect, I believe this is an issue in both PVP and PVE content of the game. Eles and rangers need more love.

Richo.3081:

Kyon.9735:

@Richo

You sound like a pure PVE Elementalist. Record in Arah? Who cares about that? LH as a DPS weapon? That’s either PVE or for-fun builds only.

You’re locking the comparison to Scepter/Focus then you claim that elementalists have enough defensive skills. Do you even play WvW or PvP? Do you realize how many people use Focus in contents aside PVE? Simply because 1 weapon set has enough defensive capabilities means that elementalist as a whole has enough defensive capabilities.

PVE is not equal to PVP/WVW. Play some WVW/PVP so you realize how much elementalists lack in the defensive department.

Well my argument did start off in PVE, and it appears to have continued on in this sense, and I do believe that PVP should be entirely seperate from PVE in order not to break the mechanics of classes in both instances, however, fresh air builds are still reasonably viable in PVP anyway. Besides, staff also has crowd control and an evade which is useful in WvW.

Ok, so Elementalist has CCs and evade. So does every other single class. Mesmers and thief have invisibility to compensate for low armor/low HP. Warriors have High HP, Armor, mobility, and blocks. Guardians have great sustain and defensive capabilites to compensate for the low HP. Do I need to state every advantage of every single class?

If elementalist staff is so great, why is it that most people consider staff elementalists a free kill outside of a zerg? Why are elementalists considered the bottom of the food chain along with rangers? Honestly speaking, elementalists and rangers need the most attention from Anet in regards to buffs.

Why are you locking the argument to a single weapon set anyway? If elementalists are fine as they are now, how come you only mentioned Fresh Air builds as the only viable build in PVP?

@Richo

You sound like a pure PVE Elementalist. Record in Arah? Who cares about that? LH as a DPS weapon? That’s either PVE or for-fun builds only.

You’re locking the comparison to Scepter/Focus then you claim that elementalists have enough defensive skills. Do you even play WvW or PvP? Do you realize how many people use Focus in contents aside PVE? Simply because 1 weapon set has enough defensive capabilities doesn’t mean that elementalist as a whole has enough defensive capabilities. What kind of player watches his opponent stack might in front of him and wait to get bursted?

PVE is not equal to PVP/WVW. Play some WVW/PVP so you realize how much elementalists lack in the defensive department.

I don’t think it’s a good idea. If you’re on a DPS Direct Damage build and you see someone with retaliation, you have a choice not to attack him. Even if you do, you get 1 return for 1 attack. When a condi player drops 1 condi on purpose/accidentally, he’ll have to take more than a lot of damage returns for every tick.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Kyon.9735:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Kyon.9735:

I don’t see a problem with thieves hitting that high because it works the other way around. If they hit hard, they get hit hard as well. The problem here lies with your build. I don’t think you can kill any decent player, even a GC, with only 2k attack.

The real problem about thieves is that Dire Perplexity condi build paired with ridiculous invisibility.

Edit:

khorne.8592:

To be fair think this is more a testament to ele’s needing a health and/or armour buff then the thief needing yet another damage nerf.

I do think eles can use HP/Armor buffs but thieves don’t need damage nerf. Crit Damage will be nerfed all across the board. But Anet can probably do something about the cheesy condi perplexity build because the skill cap required to defeat a decent player on this build is pretty high.

You have to bring the right tools to the party. Otherwise yes, very powerful thief build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9BceGSMbEQ

Not to take any credit from your skill/play but it’s cheesy PU vs cheesy P/D. Not all classes have cheesy builds.

No offense taken.

However “cheese” is a subjective term used by scrubs to justify their failure to play to win.

Once upon a time it was D/D backstab thieves that were cheese. Shatter mesmers that were cheese. Now all warriors are cheese. I hear spirit rangers in spvp are cheese.

In reality that P/D thief in the video wasn’t “cheese” at all. He was just a dude who brought his best game to the field and didn’t give away needless victories because of it (He’d caught me out twice before that fight). I made appropriate changes, came back, and turned one over on him. That’s not cheese, that’s playing to win.

It’s a strong build in the right hands, I’m willing to admit. But simply dubbing it cheese and moving on would have been my failure, not his.

Edit: Actually come to think of it, PU offered me nothing in that fight. I’d of been much better off with something else.

I think most people consider Cheesy builds as builds that doesn’t require a lot of skills to play a class effectively which makes people with low skill level look good. In short, a very low risk high reward build. The current game meta gets the credit for a build’s cheesiness. D/D thieves were considered cheesy back then because most people didn’t put in a decent amount of Vit and Toughness in their builds. D/D eles were cheesy back then because people didn’t carry enough CCs. Shatter mesmers were cheesy back then because people didn’t bring stunbreaks and defensive utilities.

Almost everybody considers P/D thief and PU mesmer cheesy, but the difference between you and a “low skill level” player that uses a cheesy build is you actually know how to play the class. You use your clones very effectively as a shield to avoid the thief’s pistol spam and even Basilisk venom. People just tend to use clones offensively and disregard what they have to offer defensively. You also use your torch #4 effectively to apply burning, not like most other people who just use it for defensive purposes. You didn’t even have to use Mass Invis. You were also lucky that your PU granted you Aegis twice in a row in the final seconds of the battle.

Long story short, cheesy builds make low skill level players look good. Decent players make it look godlike. In regards to this topic, I don’t find any problems with thief’s direct damage but rather it’s their ability to spam stealth.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Kyon.9735:

I don’t see a problem with thieves hitting that high because it works the other way around. If they hit hard, they get hit hard as well. The problem here lies with your build. I don’t think you can kill any decent player, even a GC, with only 2k attack.

The real problem about thieves is that Dire Perplexity condi build paired with ridiculous invisibility.

Edit:

khorne.8592:

To be fair think this is more a testament to ele’s needing a health and/or armour buff then the thief needing yet another damage nerf.

I do think eles can use HP/Armor buffs but thieves don’t need damage nerf. Crit Damage will be nerfed all across the board. But Anet can probably do something about the cheesy condi perplexity build because the skill cap required to defeat a decent player on this build is pretty high.

You have to bring the right tools to the party. Otherwise yes, very powerful thief build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9BceGSMbEQ

Not to take any credit from your skill/play but it’s cheesy PU vs cheesy P/D. Not all classes have cheesy builds.

havoc.6814:

Kyon.9735:

Without a target, you will move forward the full distance or until you hit an obstacle. If a foe is targeted, you continue moving until you hit your opponent, tracking its forward motion. However, if the target changes course during the two seconds, you will miss.

Really? You CUT out the LAST SENTENCE to make your argument valid? RUSH will miss as well if your target moves during the animation. Seriously, I don’t know how to reason with you anymore.

You should really begin editing your replies to not include huge amounts of text which are not relevant to the point you want to make.

I did not cut out the last sentence, I merely copied only the middle sentence because I felt only it was relative. I try to keep my posts somewhat clean. Rush will miss if the target moves at all. RTL only if the target changes course. There is a difference. RTL will hit a moving target which did not change course if it manages to close the gap, Rush will not.

I copy-pasted the whole thing because you cut it, leaving out the most important part which you claim is not relevant. With all the flaws in your arguments and how you try to cover it up, I don’t see a reason to make a valid and progressive argument with you. I will let the others decide whom to believe based on our previous posts.

My stand will be: Either change the nerf on RTL or give all other gap closer skills the same treatment. Elementalists were punished for not using a gap closing skill as it was supposed to be, why do other classes get a special treatment? This argument is about “Gap closers” being actually used as Gap closers, why bring up arguments not related to gap closers at all?

havoc.6814:

Kyon.9735:

Did you even read my earlier post? Let me copy paste it for you…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ride_the_Lightning

- Both RTL and Rush don’t track targets.
- Both Rush and RTL doesn’t give you ANY damage immunity.
- RTL is not affected by cripple/chill but not buffed by swiftness while Rush is affected by cripple/chill but buffed by swiftness. Compare how much time you’d be crippled/chilled to how much time you have swiftness.
- RTL does not negate falling damage.
- Both skills are buggy and is hard to hit but RTL rubberbands, Rush doesn’t.

Again, it’s pretty much crystal clear. Anet nerfed RTL because it wasn’t being used as a gap closer like it was intended. The range fix was fine but the cooldown penalty is an overkill. GW2 has the very same issue right now, why is it that other classes get to enjoy that “privilege” while one class was punished for it?

From the very RTL link you provided:
“If a foe is targeted, you continue moving until you hit your opponent, tracking its forward motion.”
I spend a great deal of time crippled and chilled as a warrior. Don’t even think you get to dictate to me how often I am effected by movement impairing effects. You do not.
Rush can also rubber band, it has happened to me. Rush will also get hung up on very small rocks or other obstacles, RTL will not. Both skills are bugged, that is not a balance issue however.
I stand on my points and call you wrong on your corrections.

Without a target, you will move forward the full distance or until you hit an obstacle. If a foe is targeted, you continue moving until you hit your opponent, tracking its forward motion. However, if the target changes course during the two seconds, you will miss.

Really? You CUT out the LAST SENTENCE to make your argument valid? RUSH will miss as well if your target moves during the animation. Seriously, I don’t know how to reason with you anymore.

havoc.6814:

Kyon.9735:

Please give a VALID reason why you’re so opposed to it? All your comparisons to RUSH were made invalid already. We’re trying to compare “gap closers”, not weapon sets. I don’t see why you’re bringing it up. What’s the point of having many skills when you’re having trouble closing the gap between you and your target?

Double post? There is an edit feature….
I am opposed to a revert of the previous nerf because I feel that that nerf was a valid step in the right direction. I feel that if the bugs were fixed, this would be a really good skill. I am not opposed to a small redction in the cd of this skill, just to a revert of the nerf. Also, all of my points regarding the caomparison of RTL and Rush were not invalidated. A few of them were, most of them still stand. (RTL still tracks, is still not effected by movement impairing effects such as cripple or chill, still does AOE damage….).

Did you even read my earlier post? Let me copy paste it for you…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ride_the_Lightning

- Both RTL and Rush don’t track targets.
- Both Rush and RTL doesn’t give you ANY damage immunity.
- RTL is not affected by cripple/chill but not buffed by swiftness while Rush is affected by cripple/chill but buffed by swiftness. Compare how much time you’d be crippled/chilled to how much time you have swiftness.
- RTL does not negate falling damage.
- Both skills are buggy and is hard to hit but RTL rubberbands, Rush doesn’t.

Again, it’s pretty much crystal clear. Anet nerfed RTL because it wasn’t being used as a gap closer like it was intended. The range fix was fine but the cooldown penalty is an overkill. GW2 has the very same issue right now, why is it that other classes get to enjoy that “privilege” while one class was punished for it?

havoc.6814:

Ancient Ranger.3276:

So then you are tell me that warriors do not have a weapon swap? All professions Except Elementalist and Engineers have access to 20 weapon skills at any given time (if they are above level 7) due to weapon swapping.
-snip-

All professions do not have 20 weapon skills available due to weapon swap. Your weapon only decides your first five skills. Swapping weapons gives you another five skills in these slots. The last five skills (Skills 6-10) are based upon weapons and do not change with a weapon swap. Thus every profession except elementalist gets 2 sets of skills 1-5 (for a total of 10 skills available in those slots), plus 5 skills in slots 6 – 10 (bringing the total to 15 skills, of which only 10 are weapon skills) Professions also get their profession specific skills, which in the case of the warrior is a single burst skill on each weapon swap. Thus the warrior has a total of 12 weapon based skills (including their burst skills) and five additional skills (one of which is a heal and one an elite). Elementalists get a few more skill (a total of 25; 20 of which are weapon-based skills), Engineers can also get more skills by using kits in their utility slots. I am totally surprised at the need to explain this to you. Do you even play the game at all?

On topic: it seems some of the things I stated about RTL are no longer valid, although the Wiki link still claims them to be so. It is also apparent that many of those asking for a revert know little or nothing about the very skill they are so apt to compare RTL to.

RTL is basically fine. A small reduction in the cooldown would not hurt it though. A total revert would. From me a huge “no” to a revert, but a “maybe” to a cd reduction.

All in all, I think the skill should be fixed before it is buffed in any way.

Please give a VALID reason why you’re so opposed to it? All your comparisons to RUSH were made invalid already. We’re trying to compare “gap closers”, not weapon sets. What’s the point of having many skills when you’re having trouble closing the gap between you and your target?

FGS is OP… against non moving targets. I’d rather have Anet improve the AIs lol.

Dalanor.5387:

phaeris.7604:

How is the low health pool of the elementalist explained.

High damage.

But every class can pretty much spec for high damage as well.

ilMasa.2546:

Lets stop with this BS “If they hit hard, they get hit hard as well” ok?!

This is a normal thief scenario:

stealth (damage increased) => 3k to 6k dmg=> stealth (heal and/or condition remove) =>3k dmg => stealth

Most of times u cant even target a thief before getting dropped to 1/4 hp.

Lets be clear i dont mind if thieves can unleash tons of dmg (even on a full bunker warrior,thing that makes me laugh hard) to compensate their squishyness…but the STEALTH mechanics in this game are just BS,and this is a fact.

Just to be clear, I main ele which is at the bottom of the food chain along with rangers in WvW. Of course I’ve been instagibbed countless times.

You said it yourself, there’s no problem about their damage but rather the stealth mechanics.

keoma.5210:

Eelementalist has access to very strong healing while have high damage as well. (Evasive arcana, cleansing water, cleansing wave). Combined with fast movement speed it is not overpowered at all…
Do you say fiery greatsword is useless? I would like such a useless skill with my necro….

Great observation. Maybe that’s why people rarely see D/D Elementalists in PVP and WvW? /sarcasm

BTW we’re talking about landspeed here so I don’t see a reason why you’re bringing that up. The previous posts are still related to landspeed, this one clearly isn’t.

But if you insist… Eles (and most/all other classes) need to gear for Healing Power if they want to have decent healing, maybe at least 400~500 (for eles at least). Warriors just need 1 signet to get more than decent sustain heal, no need to gear up for Healing power at all.

I don’t see a problem with thieves hitting that high because it works the other way around. If they hit hard, they get hit hard as well. The problem here lies with your build. I don’t think you can kill any decent player, even a GC, with only 2k attack.

The real problem about thieves is that Dire Perplexity condi build paired with ridiculous invisibility.

Edit:

khorne.8592:

To be fair think this is more a testament to ele’s needing a health and/or armour buff then the thief needing yet another damage nerf.

I do think eles can use HP/Armor buffs but thieves don’t need damage nerf. Crit Damage will be nerfed all across the board. But Anet can probably do something about the cheesy condi perplexity build because the skill cap required to defeat a decent player on this build is pretty high.

fellyn.5083:

Kyon.9735:

fellyn.5083:

Deniara Devious.3948:

fellyn.5083:

Warriors got a lot of buffs because they were literally 1 trick ponies in pve only. In wvw or any form of pvp they were all but considered free kills. The warrior representation was next to nil.

So, yes, I’m aware of the history. Still the whole “warrior has heavy armor so it shouldn’t be fast” argument is very tired. Since when has GW2 ever followed the typical mmo tropes?

Warriors were the backbone of WvWvW zerg meta from Autumn 2012. Telling anything else is either just a blatant lie or shows ignorance of this game mode. Warriors were never weak in pve or WvWvW and buffing them for this game mode has been overdone.

I haven’t used the heavy armor argument at all. I know that protection > armor in most cases. The base health pool size and mobility however matters.

I am not asking to have warrior’s nerfed to the ground since I am playing one, but there are few issues which need addressing:

1. mobility (GS #5 needs its CD increased and range brought down to 900, warhorn CDs and effects should be looked upon with quick breathing trait)
2. longbow #5 needs to be toned down (compare it with any other immobilize weapon skill e..g guardian hammer #3 and engi rifle #2 and you see it is overpowered and at the same time longbow #1 could do roughly 10% more damage)
3. Healing signet needs to have its passive effect reduced and its active effect buffed up (in general signets should more active use for all professions)

“I haven’t used the heavy armor argument at all”

That’s probably why I wasn’t quoting you to begin with don’t you think?

As for the rest..

1) Okay. Fine. But make it so it doesn’t outright miss your target 98% of the time for no particular reason.

So Warriors have the right to complain while Eles with offhand dagger (RTL) don’t?

Where did I say that?

Sorry, that was just a sarcastic post. My point is devs please fix RTL too. Too many bugs (misses for no reason, rubberbands, etc) never been fixed since it was nerfed

keoma.5210:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

keoma.5210:

“The only logical solution is to nerf warrior mobility.”
I don’t see the logic here exactly.
Not the warrior, but another class would be the fastest, overpowered class. Do you consider it a solution?
Seems like you don’t want any balance, you just want to nerf warriors because you hate them, or one of them.

The point is – warrior have too much of everything. It is a joke that a HEAVY armor class is able to escape SO easily and so freely without punishment. If Ride The Lightening deserved to be so heavily nerfed, the same should happen to Rush.

Two words: Fiery greatsword.
Elementalists still can run as fast as a gepard.

How long is the cooldown for FGS though? Comparing utility/elite skills to weapon skills is .__.

havoc.6814:

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Warriors have 20 weapon skills (we are talking about weapon skills here) -snip -

What is this ignorance? Warriors do not have 20 weapon skills. They have exactly twelve weapon skills available at all times, including the burst skills. Learn to Warrior.

On topic: RTL does not need a reversal of the nerf.

The skill is not really comparable to Rush. Sure, both have 1200 range, but rush does not track it’s target as RTL does. RTL is effected by knockdowns, but not by other movement imparing effects (such as cripple). Rush, on the other hand, is effected by all movement-impairing effects. RTL can be used to negate fall damage, and to even attack a foe from off of an elevation ( a cliffside) without taking the falling damage that would normally result, or to cross gaps that are too far to jump. Rush can do none of that. RTL has an AOE attack at the end of it, Rush has a single player attack, which does not even cleave. Both skills are buggy, but that is a bug issue and not a balance issue. Comparing RTL and Rush also ignores other factors related to balance between both professions.

RTL needs to be bug-fixed, as does Rush, but does not need a reversal of the previous nerf.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ride_the_Lightning

Please.

- Both RTL and Rush don’t track targets.
- Both Rush and RTL doesn’t give you ANY damage immunity.
- RTL is not affected by cripple/chill but not buffed by swiftness while Rush is affected by cripple/chill but buffed by swiftness. Compare how much time you’d be crippled/chilled to how much time you have swiftness.
- RTL does not negate falling damage.
- Both skills are buggy and is hard to hit but RTL rubberbands, Rush doesn’t.

Shadowscamp.8065:

Kyon.9735:

Sarcastic question: Since when were warriors afraid of immobilize, chill, and cripple?

Since always. Why do you think so many warriors take Dogged March, Melandru runes, and -Condi food?

It was a big source of complaint before the addition of Dogged March.

Warriors tend to take all three because they tend to need it. Other classes can do it too, but they don’t need to, or rather it’s not their strongest setup.

I’m not going to try to debate on balance, but just to answer your question, full melee warriors have always been “afraid of” and weak to soft CC. That’s the nature of full melee, and is why Dogged March was added in the first place.

Edit: For the record so I don’t seem like I’m trying to derail the thread, I also think RTL’s non-contact CD is way too high right now.

Good. You answered it yourself. Since the Dogged March addition and the start of fame of Melandru/Hoelbrak and Lemongrass, those 3 condis were basically ignored by warriors because Melandru/Hoelbrak + Dogged March + Lemongrass (optional) has become the “warrior meta setup” for warriors in WvW/PvP.

I raised this question for Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS because he claims that [Ride the Lightning] “ignores” conditions in defense to Warriors’ [Rush] in which he claimed that Elementalists’ RTL CD is justified. This is false because with the “warrior meta setup” they are the ones who “ignores” these soft CCs and going into RTL Form does not grant invulnerability to direct or condition damage.

You can say that elementalists has the same trait and can do the same setup but at what cost? 20 points in Earth while warriors only need to sacrifice 10? Melandru/Hoelbrak runes instead of something that synergizes better with eles like boon duration or power + crit or some other stat combinations? Fact is, warriors aren’t losing that much by going in this setup because of their high base HP, damage, and armor while elementalists will sacrifice something more noticeable.

Edited to answer this:

runeblade.7514:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

If Rush does not get fixed the the extra long cool down SHOULD be removed, but seeing as how many of the Devs main Ele? Yeah i dont see that happening. Anyone else find it a little odd that the class ALL the devs main just so happens to be to the most broken class in the game…

Terrible suggestion.

There is a huge difference between Elementalist and Warriors.

Elementalist has 40 weapon skills.
Warriors has 12 weapon skills.

Elementalist have 9 CC, 3 mobility, 2 heals on their D/D
Warrior have 1 very slow cripple, and 2 mobility.

Elementalist has Lightning Flash to make the huge radius of Churning Earth work.
Warriors do not have any teleport to make Hundred blades work.

Elementalist have spammable CC and used to have spammable disengage.
Warriors do not have spammable CC and can only rely on semi-spammable disengage of the GS.

To say that warriors rush deserve the same treatment as Elementalist is ignorant. When warriors get to have 40 skills with 9 CC, 2 heals, and 2 mobility skills in a Greatsword, then Warrior’s rush deserve a RTL nerf.

Comparing the skills of all 4 attunements to 1 weapon set? Not to mention you’re locking the comparison to D/D. What does Staff/Scepter/Focus users have to say to this? Logic.

Burning Speed – Fire Attunement – 15 seconds, 600 range
Ride the Lightning – Air Attunement – 40 seconds if used for mobility, 1200 range

Whirling Attack – Greatsword- 10 secs, 450 range, Evades attacks
Rush – Greatsword – 20 secs, 1200 range

How many times would have you used both Whirling Attack and Rush before eles can use RTL for the second time? How much distance would have you covered?

Don’t even compare an elementalists’ CC to a Warriors’ CC because you’re embarrassing yourself. These “spammable” CC’s on the DD set both have 40 seconds cooldown untraited. Why are you even comparing weapon sets when the point of this whole thread is to reduce RTL CD?

As some XXXX people have always claimed, people have no problems if “Gap Closers” are used as they are meant to be used. But why is it that only an elementalist skill gets treated “specially”?

Sarcastic question: Since when were warriors afraid of immobilize, chill, and cripple?

fellyn.5083:

Deniara Devious.3948:

fellyn.5083:

Warriors got a lot of buffs because they were literally 1 trick ponies in pve only. In wvw or any form of pvp they were all but considered free kills. The warrior representation was next to nil.

So, yes, I’m aware of the history. Still the whole “warrior has heavy armor so it shouldn’t be fast” argument is very tired. Since when has GW2 ever followed the typical mmo tropes?

Warriors were the backbone of WvWvW zerg meta from Autumn 2012. Telling anything else is either just a blatant lie or shows ignorance of this game mode. Warriors were never weak in pve or WvWvW and buffing them for this game mode has been overdone.

I haven’t used the heavy armor argument at all. I know that protection > armor in most cases. The base health pool size and mobility however matters.

I am not asking to have warrior’s nerfed to the ground since I am playing one, but there are few issues which need addressing:

1. mobility (GS #5 needs its CD increased and range brought down to 900, warhorn CDs and effects should be looked upon with quick breathing trait)
2. longbow #5 needs to be toned down (compare it with any other immobilize weapon skill e..g guardian hammer #3 and engi rifle #2 and you see it is overpowered and at the same time longbow #1 could do roughly 10% more damage)
3. Healing signet needs to have its passive effect reduced and its active effect buffed up (in general signets should more active use for all professions)

“I haven’t used the heavy armor argument at all”

That’s probably why I wasn’t quoting you to begin with don’t you think?

As for the rest..

1) Okay. Fine. But make it so it doesn’t outright miss your target 98% of the time for no particular reason.

So Warriors have the right to complain while Eles with offhand dagger (RTL) don’t?

Just revert immobilize already. Not all people want to use melandru/hoelbrak (pvp) or melandru/hoelbrak + lemongrass (wvw). People can easily stack 10s+ of immobilize on you on top of other conditions which means you’re pretty much screwed.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Kyon.9735:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Light = Low defense, high mobility
Medium = Medium defense, No change to mobility
Heavy = High defense, Low mobility

Warriors will be crying over this haha.

Of course it would mean FIXING the Greatsword as well of course, making it work ONLY with a target.

Should they wish to have more mobility, they could go with Medium or light armor, of course that would mean having less armor but mobility should come at a cost.

Haha don’t worry that was just a sarcasm post. There are a lot of warriors in denial of how OP their mobility is and they’d cry foul if this change were to happen because right now, they have High Defense and High Mobility and a change like this would only mean a nerf to them. Of course as a person who plays another class, I’d love to try this out.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Distaste.4801:

You just prove the point. Warriors have tons of defensive capabilities but still get max health/armor where the necro only gets health. Does DS truly warrant the light to heavy armor discrepancy on top of immunities, mobility, regen, and high damage?

Don’t get me wrong if they equalized the base health values and made all armor classes available to each class it would upset current balance. The problem is that current balance isn’t great at all and it’s continually trying to band-aid balance the stat discrepancies inherent from the base values. If we can set the base values as equal then we open up a huge variety of builds for all classes and can truly balance the classes based on survivability, dmg, mobility, etkittenil then classes will be pidgeonholed into going up certain trait lines and getting certain gear just to get enough vitality/toughness to survive against moderate DPS builds. Don’t even get me started on the trait line stat issues either! It’s just plain bad design.

Light = Low defense, high mobility
Medium = Medium defense, No change to mobility
Heavy = High defense, Low mobility

Warriors will be crying over this haha.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Kyon.9735:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Kyon.9735:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Oozo.7856:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Working as intended.
Nothing to see here.

If it is working as intended then why were elems nerfed for exactly what warriors are doing now.

Because Arenanet considered RTL unbalanced, not the concept of movement skills (without target) as a whole.

Assuming you are talking about RTL. But even if not, just because one skill/trait/item is nerfed, it doesn’t mean the entire concept is unbalanced.

Then what was the reason RTL got nerfed? Because eles used it to run/reset fights regardless of having a target or not which is what warriors are doing.

Again, my suggestion is either nerf all leap skills like the way they did with RTL (cooldown penalty on miss) or remove RTL’s nerf and think of another way to address this issue. The issue is about Weapon Skills, not Utilities so comparing the 2 is just plain stupid.

My original argument stands. Just because RTL was overpowered doesn’t mean all movement skills are. And I never compared weapon kills with utility skills.

Care to elaborate how it was overpowered aside from its mobility and ability to reset a fight at will? And how different it is from other mobility weapon skills that it has to get a 25% + 100% CD increase if not used as a gap closer and why other mobility/leap weapon skills don’t deserve the same fate?

Edit: On a side note, I think the range “nerf” was more of a “fix”. Tooltip says 1,200 range but it goes for some 1.5k something instead.

BTW sorry, that utility vs weapon skill comparison was not for you. Some guy on the previous page said Blink abilities should get 80s CD if it doesn’t “hit”.

I personally did not believe RTL was overpowered, eles depend on movement to stay alive. But ArenaNet believed it was. They simply made a mistake (imo).

It’s cool, it’s good that we’ve come to an understanding. Most people are fine with the 25% CD increase but were not ok with the 100% increase on miss. Anet practically ignored the playerbase until people gave up on it.

Now that other classes(mostly warriors) gets away with the very same reason RTL was nerfed, people are crying foul again. RTL was never given a good closure. That’s why imo they should treat the same issue right now with the same way they “fixed” the previous one. If Anet mans up and admit that RTL nerf was over the top, they should revert it and think of another way how to address the mobility issues.

I’ve come to accept the condi meta but the recent Immobilize buff is over the top for me. Getting 10+ seconds immobilize is outrageous and uncalled for. I know it’s just 1 condition but if you have some other 5+ conditions on top of it, you’re pretty much screwed. They’re forcing players to run Melandru + Lemongrass just to counter enemies that go for condi duration and not all people use food all the time in WvW while others prefer some other food.

Like others said, maybe nerfing the condition duration would help other condition damage food be more viable. But before that, I’ll be happy if they revert Immobilize.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Kyon.9735:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Oozo.7856:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Working as intended.
Nothing to see here.

If it is working as intended then why were elems nerfed for exactly what warriors are doing now.

Because Arenanet considered RTL unbalanced, not the concept of movement skills (without target) as a whole.

Assuming you are talking about RTL. But even if not, just because one skill/trait/item is nerfed, it doesn’t mean the entire concept is unbalanced.

Then what was the reason RTL got nerfed? Because eles used it to run/reset fights regardless of having a target or not which is what warriors are doing.

Again, my suggestion is either nerf all leap skills like the way they did with RTL (cooldown penalty on miss) or remove RTL’s nerf and think of another way to address this issue. The issue is about Weapon Skills, not Utilities so comparing the 2 is just plain stupid.

My original argument stands. Just because RTL was overpowered doesn’t mean all movement skills are. And I never compared weapon kills with utility skills.

Care to elaborate how it was overpowered aside from its mobility and ability to reset a fight at will? And how different it is from other mobility weapon skills that it has to get a 25% + 100% CD increase if not used as a gap closer and why other mobility/leap weapon skills don’t deserve the same fate?

Edit: On a side note, I think the range “nerf” was more of a “fix”. Tooltip says 1,200 range but it goes for some 1.5k something instead.

BTW sorry, that utility vs weapon skill comparison was not for you. Some guy on the previous page said Blink abilities should get 80s CD if it doesn’t “hit”.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Oozo.7856:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Working as intended.
Nothing to see here.

If it is working as intended then why were elems nerfed for exactly what warriors are doing now.

Because Arenanet considered RTL unbalanced, not the concept of movement skills (without target) as a whole.

Assuming you are talking about RTL. But even if not, just because one skill/trait/item is nerfed, it doesn’t mean the entire concept is unbalanced.

Then what was the reason RTL got nerfed? Because eles used it to run/reset fights regardless of having a target or not which is what warriors are doing.

Again, my suggestion is either nerf all leap skills like the way they did with RTL (cooldown penalty on miss) or remove RTL’s nerf and think of another way to address this issue. The issue is about Weapon Skills, not Utilities so comparing the 2 is just plain stupid.

In addition Aura Rework Suggestions, here’s a few Water Line suggestions:

GM Trait Powerful Aura moves down to Master Trait. Makes Elementalists a bit more viable in groups without investing too much.

Remove Adept Trait Shard of Ice and add GM Trait Chaotic Aura

Chaotic Aura – Aura duration +1(or 2) second/s. Adds a “Chaos Armor-like” effect on auras. Applies random boons and conditions when struck by an enemy. 1 second ICD, gives Aegis (5s) when Aura ends. Only applies to caster. Chaos Aura effect lasts 5(?) seconds.

Boons:
Retaliation 3s
Regeneration 3s
Vigor 5s

Conditions:
Blind
Cripple 3s
Weakness 3s

Why make this change?
It will obviously make ALL auras stronger and be more defensive overall. Being struck will give you defensive boons and gives conditions which makes enemies think twice before hitting you.

The boons you get are not similar to any existing traits that gives you boons on Aura Activation. The conditions you apply help you as well defensively. As of now, people just need to pop stability to ignore the CC effects of Shocking Aura and Frost Aura, adding these effects makes Auras more viable when traited.

Problems?
Aura changes. If the changes to Auras turn out to be too good, moving the trait Powerful Aura to Minor Trait will prove to be a wrong decision.

As of now, the Water and Arcana trait line seems fine as they are. I’m putting this in Water trait because it seems to have the best synergy with a defensive trait line.

Its synergy with Fire’s Embrace. I haven’t thought deep enough if it will be OP if paired with a Fire’s Embrace and a signet build. Will it be a pure defensive build or people can make it possible to make offensive as well?

It doesn’t change the fact that you still have to bury yourself 30 points in the Water trait line.

Being the “one-true-build”. There aren’t a lot of build varieties for elementalits and we don’t want every single ele running the same build.

How long should the Chaos Aura effect last? Is 5 seconds too long? I think 3s is too short but 5s can be too long. If your enemy is stupid enough to keep attacking you, the boons and conditions you apply will stack up. If you’re lucky, you can even get more than 10s+ Vigor. However, this makes your enemies think twice before attacking you. We can make Vigor like 3s but 3s is too short for a boon like Vigor.

Thoughts?

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Kyon.9735:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

People seem to misunderstand things quite a lot

The SHARED GLOBAL cooldown between sigils is going away, they will still have their own internal cooldown. Otherwise an Engineer could stack 25 stacks of might in a matter of secnds by using Battle, i doubt that is going to happen.

Well, first of all an engineer (and ele) only has one weapon set so they can only proc two on-swap sigils every 9 seconds at most. But other classes has two weapon sets meaning they can have four on-swap sigils which means they can proc four different on swap sigils in 20 seconds.

How about warriors? They can trait for 5s weapon swap. Unless all four on-swap sigils proc the cooldown during weapon swap, they can proc up to four different on-swap sigils in 10 seconds. So basically what we want is a clarification on Anet how on-swap sigils will work.

Imagine I am a warrior and we know that I can’t proc 2x Sigil of Energy in 10 seconds, but how about two different sigils? If I have Energy then swap to another weapon set with Hydromancy 5 seconds after I proc Energy, will Hydromancy work?

Based on the Information they gave us, yes that will work.

Then don’t you think it’s unfair for only warriors to be able to do this?

I see warriors in denial. Just to be fair, all Gap Closer skills should work like Ride the Lightning, or not at all. Ride the Lightning was nerfed because of the very same reason Warriors are exploiting it now.

Give us a good reason why RtL should remain nerfed and other Gap Closer skills should remain the way it is. Either nerf them all, or remove the nerf and think of another way to remove this exploit. And oh, don’t give us lame excuses like the elementalist’s FGS. Just take a peek at FGS cooldown compared to the cooldown of Weapon Skills.

Funny how people complain about kiting. People don’t have problems when people use their leap skills as Gap Closers like intended. It’s another thing when they use it to run and reset the fight. No matter how hard you deny it, people use it for the latter.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

People seem to misunderstand things quite a lot

The SHARED GLOBAL cooldown between sigils is going away, they will still have their own internal cooldown. Otherwise an Engineer could stack 25 stacks of might in a matter of secnds by using Battle, i doubt that is going to happen.

Well, first of all an engineer (and ele) only has one weapon set so they can only proc two on-swap sigils every 9 seconds at most. But other classes has two weapon sets meaning they can have four on-swap sigils which means they can proc four different on swap sigils in 20 seconds.

How about warriors? They can trait for 5s weapon swap. Unless all four on-swap sigils proc the cooldown during weapon swap, they can proc up to four different on-swap sigils in 10 seconds. So basically what we want is a clarification on Anet how on-swap sigils will work.

Imagine I am a warrior and we know that I can’t proc 2x Sigil of Energy in 10 seconds, but how about two different sigils? If I have Energy then swap to another weapon set with Hydromancy 5 seconds after I proc Energy, will Hydromancy work?

Frenk.5917:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Swap, 9 second timer begins. 5 seconds later you can swap to proc the 2nd set, begin 2nd 9 sec timer. First set has 4 sec recharge left with 5 sec till next swap. Each set will go off every 10 seconds, staggered every 5. That’s twice the procs of any other class.

What? Is this how it will work? Shouldn’t they proc at the same time?

Since Anet is planning to remove the universal cooldown of sigils based on the livestream, Warriors can proc up to 4 different on swap sigils in 10s if they trait for it.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

Rednik.3809:

Do OP understand that leap skills have travel time and affected by slow effects, thats why they are don’t have targeting? Targeting requirement = teleport skills in GW2.
Also, killing whole class of skills just for sake of few wvw roamers, lol, this is beyond ridiculous.

Ride the Lightning doesn’t teleport yet requires a target.

It doesn’t particularly require a target to be used but you will get a 40s cooldown penalty instead of 20s if you don’t target and hit something.

Oozo.7856:

Dynnen.6405:

Kyon.9735:

I guess this suggestion originated from the warrior mobility balance thread. Leap skills are meant to be Gap Closers but instead they’re being used as escape tools.

Take a closer look at Ride the Lightning nerf, it’s supposed to be a gap closer but was used to escape or reset the fight instead so it got nerfed. I don’t see a reason why Warrior’s Rush or other leap/“mobility” skills shouldn’t be nerfed as well. People insist that it won’t work because of lag/travel time/bugs/slow animation but hey RtL is still as buggy as hell but they went on with the nerf. They can’t make an excuse that they were able to do it on one class but can’t on others.

Long story short; give some kind of penalty if the skill doesn’t hit anything to make it fair with Ride the Lightning. Else, remove the 2x CD penalty of RtL and think of another “balance fix” for all leap/mobility skills. So you don’t necessarily need a target and you still get to use leap skills as an escape mechanism but is not as exploitable anymore.

Dumb kittening thing about ride the lightning is it doesn’t take into account someone dodging. If you don’t hit because the player is smart, you still get super punished because it was used as an escape tool for so long rather than just punished. Certain classes have next to no risk vs reward, and some are loaded down with it so much that its near crippling.

Interesting. I suspect that is the same with blind and block as well. I know that when I’m running on my guardian, if someone shoots at me and it gets blocked it does not put me in combat.

So if an elementalist RTLs to me and it gets blocked then they get boned on the cooldown (I suspect).

Awesome!

Yes, Aegis, Blind and dodging is considered a “Miss” and will trigger the 40s cooldown.

fellyn.5083:

Mightymealworm.8409:

fellyn.5083:

I didn’t know warrior was the only class that could weapon swap or use weapon swap sigils.

You learn something new every day.

Only class that can use them every 5 seconds, vs 9-10 seconds for other classes. Was kind of the point of the whole thread. Unlearn and try again.

I’m still not seeing a problem.

Edit: I re-read the reddit post and seem to have misunderstood the part where they remove the universal sigil cooldown.

But it’s still the same mechanics, they can use up to 4 different on swap sigils and proc 2 with no problems at all every 5s

GoddessOfTheWinds.2937:

Mightymealworm.8409:

GoddessOfTheWinds.2937:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Ele only gets 1 weapon set, DENIED.

Yes, but it procs on ATTUNEMENT swap, so we can activate the sigils every 5 seconds permanently by swapping attunements.

Not with the 9 second sigil cool down. You would need a 2nd set to swap to.

Yes, it works for eles’ attunement swap. You should check it out.

I don’t think devs are stupid enough to do a blunder like that. A year has passed since release and players won’t let something like that slide without getting a nerf. That would’ve meant perma 20+ might stacks for eles without boon duration, or unlimited dodge rolls without vigor.

The devs has a lot of time to think about it, I don’t think this patch will come anytime this week. If they pursue it knowing how it could cause further imbalance to warriors, I believe it’s safe to call them stupid.

TBH I don’t think it’s that hard to re-code the sigil cooldowns. Just make all On-Swap sigils on your offset proc the cooldown too if you swap to a new weapon set and proc On-Swap sigils. That way it doesn’t matter if warriors swap weapons every 5 seconds because On-Swap sigils have a universal cooldown of 9s on both weapon sets. It will synergize with the weapon swapping cooldown.

I guess this suggestion originated from the warrior mobility balance thread. Leap skills are meant to be Gap Closers but instead they’re being used as escape tools.

Take a closer look at Ride the Lightning nerf, it’s supposed to be a gap closer but was used to escape or reset the fight instead so it got nerfed. I don’t see a reason why Warrior’s Rush or other leap/“mobility” skills shouldn’t be nerfed as well. People insist that it won’t work because of lag/travel time/bugs/slow animation but hey RtL is still as buggy as hell but they went on with the nerf. They can’t make an excuse that they were able to do it on one class but can’t on others.

Long story short; give some kind of penalty if the skill doesn’t hit anything to make it fair with Ride the Lightning. Else, remove the 2x CD penalty of RtL and think of another “balance fix” for all leap/mobility skills. So you don’t necessarily need a target and you still get to use leap skills as an escape mechanism but is not as exploitable anymore.

nicknamenick.2437:

Ele can do it every 5 sec also.
doesnt say you also swap every 5sec, and they redesign sigils also..

No. Eles swap to a different attunement but still use the SAME WEAPON set whilst Warriors (and other classes aside from engi) swap to a different weapon set. In short, eles use the same sigils when swapping while warriors use another set of sigils when swapping.

Cool. “Elite” Forum eles teaming up, are you guys?

kitten Logic, right? You buff eles to be on par with other classes or you nerf all other classes so eles can be on par with it. In the end, the goal is to make them on the same level as other classes. Why do you guys make an issue whether it’s a buff or a nerf when the goal is the same?

And Mbelch, what do you think is easier for a Developer? Buff ONE single class (rangers need some buffs too though) or nerf Condis, Warriors, and Mesmers? Nerfing condis itself means changing the whole gameplay since we are now living in the Condi Meta. It’s not that easy to change something that big and it will take a lot of time as it will obviously be a major patch. So goodluck waiting for all of them to be nerfed.

And in the first place, I just compared a nerfed skill of elementalists which is [Ride the Lightning] to a untouched, unbuffed, and not nerfed [Rush] of warriors.

Lastly, I hope you realize the difference between buffing a single class and nerfing the current meta itself.

LordByron.8369:

Kyon.9735:

So they’re saying that a class which has the highest armor and highest HP should get the mobility that was stripped from a class that had the lowest armor and lowest HP?

Claps at Failnet

this is not even an issue.

The REAL issue is how ele are locked in a range……that is the reason RTL would be fair even if thieves and warrior mobility were at 40 sec CD.

RTL is as easy to evade as churning earth at anything more than 300 range….preventing ele to chase anything that has access to stability or break stun. (infact was a decent thief/warrior counter before nerfs).

That is why rtl at 30 wouldn t still be enough.

Also as they didn t think to the reason why ele needed wasy access to stunbreaks…
The only surviving mechanism ele has comes mostly from utilities….they can t give up any…

that were the main balance offenders…

We don t need buffs we need them to reverse completely those unreasonable nerfs…
Balancing team is probably different from the team that designed the professions…

So I say “To be on par with other classes, we need buffs”
You say “This is not even an issue”

You say “To be on par with other classes, they should be nerfed”
Now that makes it an issue?

Such logic. Much Amaze. Wow.

Anet balancing is really questionable.

Just compare Warrior’s Greatsword Skill #5 [Rush] to Elementalist’s Dagger Offhand #4 [Ride The Lightning].

[Rush] has 1,200 range and has 20s CD untraited regardless if you hit something or not.
[Ride the Lightning] has 900 range and 20s CD if you hit your target and 40s CD if you don’t hit anything.

[Ride the Lightning] got nerfed because people were crying how Eles had the ability to reset a fight at will. Isn’t it the same thing as some classes right now like Warriors, Thieves, and Mesmers?

So they’re saying that a class which has the highest armor and highest HP should get the mobility that was stripped from a class that had the lowest armor and lowest HP?

Claps at Failnet

zilcho.7624:

Mbelch.9028:

It’s all about skills.. If you have them you’ll do really well, but some builds in TPvP will naturally counter you.

But about those skills, you can have them on any class, and many are easier to learn and do well on.

I love PvP, and played into the top 10 in arenas while I played WoW. I’m not a pro by a long shot, and WoW is a different game than GW2. That said, I do know my way around PvP.

Whenever a class is struggling, there are always a handful of players who want to stroke their ego and say “it’s just a lack of skill, the class is fine”. It is an attitude you see in every game in every genre. Someone, through skill and a lot of luck, takes a class to a slightly above average spot and thinks they’ve vindicated the entire class.

This. The “I don’t have any problems with this class, you just lack skills. Go roll another class” attitude is prevailing in the Ele forums which is why it’s so depressing.

Nobody cares if you’re good or not in playing the class, but when OTHER classes gets the general consensus of elementalists being underpowered and crippling to the team, isn’t it enough to prove that not only elementalists see the class underpowered but the GW2 community as a whole?

People can claim they can 1vX others easily but the question is the skill level of your opponents. By no means I consider myself a pro, tbh I consider myself your everyday average player but I can tell tales that I easily fought 1v3 and won. By no means I was good but rather my opponents were bad enough to make me look good.

I remember “talking” and “asking” to an Elementalist Dev (I don’t remember the name but he was standing next to another AFK Warrior Dev) in HoTM regarding the future of the class a few weeks ago… but he was always AFK. Devs always claim that they are listening to the player base but how are we supposed to know if they just keep quiet in the shadows.

I’ve played elementalist a lot and though I don’t claim to be a pro, it’s really hard to play condi ele in the current meta. Sure, there will be pros who claim condi ele is viable but this is my main concern.

1. We can only consistently dish out bleeding and burning conditions.
2. You won’t be able to dish out any DPS conditions when you have both Fire and Earth Attunement on cooldown.
3. Current Meta

The current meta is still the condi meta. Many people spec to have decent amount of condi cleanses. Only being able to consistently apply 2 condis won’t cut it. From what I’ve experience, even if I go for a power build I can still dish out decent Burning and Bleeding damage just by stacking might or using Sigil of Battle.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Kyon.9735:

We have perma vigor though we are forced to trait 10 points into it which is not really ideal if you want flexibility, that’s it for evade.

My main concern would be the cooldown on our stunbreaks. All our stunbreaks have very long cooldown that if I mess up with it, I usually have a hard time to recover. But well, that’s me. I’m not a pro who doesn’t have any problems playing the class.

Actually, an Off Topic question. Feel free to ignore me though:

How do you guys counter condi engis as a D/D or S/D? Especially ones with runes of perplexity. Even if I have lots of condi removals, they just put it back so quickly. Confusion is also a really hard counter against D/D eles. As for Diamond Skin, a few random auto attacks renders it useless. TBH I don’t even want to trait for Diamond skin just to counter 1 or 2 classes in WvW.

With d/d it might be harder but with s/d i find it best because you can keep yourself at range and be able to see and avoid the interrupts. If you use armor of earth utility works great against perpl engies too. Just avoid those confusion conditions and the engi should be a piece of cake.

Might be a bit hard to “avoid” confusion if it comes from the rune’s effect because I don’t know when it’ll proc. Thanks though, and yes it’s probably easier in S/D since you can keep your distance and surprise him with a burst.

I always check the combat log after a fight, win or lose, but I can’t find a counter against condi engines because all they really do are spam condi skills and wait for condi procs from their traits, runes, and sigils. After clearing the condis, their traits or runes or sigils might proc condis again and that’s what really kills me as a D/D.