Guild Wars 2

As a condition necromancer, CC warriors are my counter. I still think they’re fine. They’re not outrageous enough that I can’t do anything, but they definitely hurt.

Considering the metagame, I’m not sure bringing my class down a bit is a bad thing.

Advent Leader.1083:

How about adding a trigger delay to marks?

That would make them useless.

The focus on marks is weird. Scepter/dagger does more damage, even in AOE situations.

HPLT.7132:

Thats an odd argument. Burning is the condition with the highest damage output…if you want to get coverage this trait could also apply 2 Stacks of Confusion, or 5s of weakness or 3 stacks of bleeding…
The burning trait is stupid simply because there is no way for counterplay. Everybody hates it on Engi’s and now also on Necros. First thing after the necro crit is that you have to cleanse…and after the cleanse he starts to apply all the other kitten. This trait was nowhere near necessary.

It’s not an odd argument at all. It was a widely accepted point before everyone began freaking out about condition necromancers being too strong.

Coverage isn’t just about having another condition on there. The extra damage is necessary too. Condition necromancers relied way too much on bleeds in the past.

With that said, the burning could easily be changed to three stacks of torment.

I explained why in that post: Burning is necessary for coverage in the condition metagame. Before the big patch, necromancers constantly complained that they needed an engineer attached to the hip because the engineer’s vulnerability and burning helped provide much-needed coverage for bleeds, which were at the time the only source of good damage for necromancers outside of fears.

Maybe Dhuumfire is still a bit too strong. I’d be OK with changing it to three stacks of torment or making the burning last 2 or 3 seconds. But people seem to be forgetting why Dhuumfire was added in the first place.

Moving Terror 30 points into Curses and effectively making people choose between Terror, Dhuumfire and more survivability would actually encourage build diversity. Think of the possibilities: If a necromancer had a condition engineer in his group, he could go 20/30/0/0/20 or 0/30/20/0/20 to retain some survivability and maximize fear. If he had good peels, he could go 30/30/0/0/10 to focus entirely on damage. If he had neither, then 30/20/0/0/20 will always be well-rounded. That’s much better build diversity than currently available and provides much-needed nerfs.

Someone’s build is going to be ruined no matter what they do with Terror, whether they move it up in the trait line or outright nerf it. It’s still necessary for the game.

Besides, the game needs to be balanced around the top builds first.

Moving Terror 30 points into Curses sounds like the best solution for the class.

Dhuumfire is not a good source for a nerf. The reason Dhuumfire was added is because necromancers previously relied on engineers for condition coverage. Dhuumfire was given to the class to make it more independent, which directly addressed a problem every high-rated necromancer complained about before.

Now, Dhuumfire could be changed to three stacks of torment or two or three seconds of burning. But I think people are both misunderstanding why burning was given to necromancers in the first place and overestimating how strong burning’s damage is in group situations.

One of those was a necromancer, so it’s not a very good sample. You also killed two by knocking them off, which isn’t very impressive or relevant to balance.

Condition necromancers probably do too much damage, but you basically went to the zoo and beat up a bunch of defenseless animals.

Also, 1v4 means killing five people at once. That was not a 1v4.

Thieves don’t beat condition necromancers, especially with the stronger Death Shroud.

If spirits are surviving that long against you, then you need to AOE them down.

But I honestly consider necromancers a hard counter to spirit rangers. I’m not sure what you’re doing wrong.

Condition necromancers don’t get eaten alive by thieves or rangers, and they’re not outlasted by elementalists. Warriors are probably condition necromancer’s best counter in group fights, but they’re not good in one-on-one situations.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lopez.7369:

No high-rated warrior on the planet is running a condition build.

You’re right, they are all running CC spam.

Mace+Shield/Sword+Mace, Bulls Charge, Stomp.
If your stun breakers or stability is on cooldown or if you are a Mesmer, you’re going to see recharging bars more than using skills.

I don’t see the problem. Warriors finally have a unique, viable role, and people are complaining? What?

What’s weird is this isn’t a unique role for warriors in the Guild Wars universe. Hammer builds served a similar purpose in Guild Wars 1.

I agree entirely with the OP. People need to stop focusing on how strong Death Shroud is now. Its intent was to be this strong all along because it’s supposed to replace vigor, blocks, evades, and immunities.

Now, maybe the damage is still too strong. I tend to agree with that, and I would like to see Terror nerfed more or at least switched with Withering Precision so it’s 30 points into Curses. (I honestly doubt Terror will ever work if necromancers are going to be balanced so they don’t need an engineer for burning for condition coverage, but it’s worth trying to move Terror up in the Curses trait line before outright removing it.)

No high-rated warrior on the planet is running a condition build.

Necromancers were never hard to kill. Every single high-rated necromancer was saying the class needed survivability buffs and damage nerfs. Guess what happened this patch? Survivability buffs and damage nerfs.

The change makes it so Death Shroud can be used to absorb damage every 10 seconds. Basically, it’s another evade. How’s that any different from the vigor, blocks, and immunities other classes get? Remember that necromancers don’t have any of those.

Unless you’re talking about a necromancer who starts at 100 percent life force (impractical) and stays in it the entire time (bad play). In that case, a condition necromancer isn’t doing threatening damage while he’s in death shroud.

Perhaps the damage is still too high, but focusing on the survivability is wrongheaded.

These videos showing 100 percent life force situations are very misleading. When do you guys run around with 100 percent life force? The only time that should happen is when you’re facerolling a PUG or horrible team.

The Death Shroud buff was definitely big, but the situation shown in the original video is too impractical to be relevant. (I also don’t think Spectral Armor is worth it, although Last Gasp is definitely amazing and viable now.)

The patch moved in a good direction with the class: It provided more sustained defenses, and it nerfed damage. It might not have been enough on the damage side or too much on the survivability end, but it’s generally a step forward.

One thing people need to understand: Death Shroud is supposed to act as an evade of sorts. It’s supposed to replace vigor, block and immunities. So it’s not really unthinkable that it would eat an elementalist’s burst combo.

Anyone know?

It doesn’t seem like tier 4 loot was better than tier 1. I didn’t manage to get a gold medal soloing tier 1 and 2 so I didn’t see if it gave better loot.

I just don’t understand why it’s apparently OK that we get 30 percent life force at the start of a match by killing our own minions, but it’s not OK to just give it as a default and remove the ability to get life force from minions.

I never supported the spectral abilities working in Death Shroud in the first place, but getting worked up about that is ridiculous. It’s going to happen so rarely.

The patch went in a great direction. It nerfed damage, and it buffed survivability. That’s what the high-rated PvP community has been asking for necromancers since the last patch. Whether it’s enough remains to be seen, but I have my doubts.

Shar.3402:

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2622702

this is the state of the necromancer after the patch. Balanced. Not.

That is enormously situational and impractical. I’d be surprised if people started taking Spectral Armor in the first place.

I love the changes so far. The patch was a decent survivability buff and damage nerf. That’s exactly where the class should be heading.

This is now the go-to build for me. Soul Marks is a huge survivability buff.

Some people will still need it because they struggle to aim and don’t pay enough attention to block, but the extra survivability from 20 in Soul Reaping is great.

After some testing, I concluded Greater Marks is definitely not necessary. Some people will still need it because they struggle to aim and don’t pay enough attention to block, but the extra survivability from 20 in Soul Reaping is great.

Sepreh.5924:

Lopez.7369:

From the look of the patch notes, you can now play without Greater Marks. If that’s true, you can now go 30/20/0/0/20, picking up Last Gasp and Soul Marks in Soul Reaping. That’s a huge buff in survivability. (It’s also obviously less damage than going 30 into Curses.)

I can see that. The problem is that it seems that it would be a survivability buff for a particular spec that was thought to already be extremely powerful (some specs were already that deep in soul reaping). Also, I know this may be a stupid question but I dont know the numbers but would the increase in DS plus Last Gasp make up for the decreased toughness from skipping the points in death magic?

Btw – enjoyed the necro guide you had up – made me come back to my necro after a hiatus

The 100 toughness is a loss, but the mix of Gluttony, Last Gasp, and Soul Marks should make up for it multiple times over.

All of this will obviously require testing once the patch goes live, but it seems like a good concept.

If anyone wants a point of comparison for how much 180 radius is, look at Signet of Undeath. That seems large enough to me.

Probably not. Soul Marks and Last Gasp seem much better than unblockable marks with 60 extra radius.

It will probably take a while for most necromancers to realize this if it works, though. (Most still use Well of Power over Plague Signet, for example.)

From the look of the patch notes, you can now play without Greater Marks. If that’s true, you can now go 30/20/0/0/20, picking up Last Gasp and Soul Marks in Soul Reaping. That’s a huge buff in survivability. (It’s also obviously less damage than going 30 into Curses.)

Today’s changes are a step in the right direction. Lower damage, more survivability.

People who insist on sticking to weaker, outdated builds should probably get used to being weaker. ArenaNet can’t balance around mediocrity.

The patch isn’t actually live yet. But if it wasn’t fixed today, we have a serious problem with Guild Wars 2’s future as an e-sport.

Good warriors are effective at countering condition builds right now. After necromancer gets some nerfs, the class might start popping up in high-rated teams.

It’s bewildering so many people are still denying necromancers are overpowered while high-rated players are getting bored of the class and saying it’s ruined because it’s so overpowered and thoughtless now.

Do you think this kind of bug would make it live in League of Legends to begin with? Do you think such a huge bug would have gone uncaught by that game’s developers for a month? I seriously doubt it. That’s what the QA department is for.

But let’s assume that, for whatever reason, it’s on us to catch the bug and report it. OK, I did. Why wasn’t it hotfixed today? It’s a huge, game-breaking bug.

Pointing to League of Legends again, do you think Riot would have taken so long to fix such a fundamental mechanic?

Either the developers are too slow or they don’t feel enough urgency when dealing with these issues. Both of those present big problems for the future of the game as an e-sport.

It’s fine if you don’t get it, but it doesn’t really matter. The developers understand, and at this point high-rated players are waiting on them to get the execution right.

You keep attributing it to power when that’s not the problem.

Whether a build is strong or not has nothing to do with it. Mesmers were arguably overpowered in the previous metagame, but high-rated players rarely complained about them. Why? Because there was a huge difference between Supcutie and the average run-of-the-mill mesmer.

Right now, spirit rangers, sword/dagger thieves, condition necromancers and even scepter/dagger elementalists are the perfect storm of mindless play. All those classes make it more difficult for teams to differentiate each other based on skill level, which hurts the competitive aspects of the game.

A few builds and classes are always going to be stronger than everything else. That’s the metagame. What makes this metagame the worst ever is its mindless nature.

Israel.7056:

Lopez.7369:

The problem with the current metagame is it’s way too unrewarding to someone who is more skillful.

I don’t understand this way of thinking.

Thankfully, the developers do. Whether they successfully do something about it remains to be seen.

I play necromancer, and I feel like my class has been ruined because anyone can act like a chimpanzee smashing the keyboard and out-damage everyone else in the game. There are still a few small tricks that allow better players to beat others in one-on-one and group situations, but the skill floor is simply too high.

No high-rated player is really stuck to a class. The problem with the current metagame is it’s way too unrewarding to someone who is more skillful.

I’m concerned that if they don’t substantially nerf necromancer damage tomorrow, a lot of high-rated teams will quit. From what I gather, a lot of high-rated teams have already quit playing for League of Legends and whatnot.

I guess I should be happy that it’s been acknowledged, but I can’t get over that such a fundamental mechanic was bugged for a month. That this wasn’t hotfixed today is telling.

Once again, if Grievous Wounds was bugged in League of Legends, there’s no doubt it would be fixed within hours of Riot finding out.

Glancing blows are supposed to be the direct opposite of critical hits.

Still, making it a flat 25-percent damage reduction would make more sense from the e-sport perspective.

I tested weakness when testing poison. It absolutely doesn’t reduce healing.

I’m glad other people realize this is huge.

The worst part is it massively lowers the skill cap. Managing downed players with poison was a huge part of high-rated play before this bug kicked in.

Stof.9584:

Why have people still not released there will always be one build for each class that outperforms other builds or other classes in its specific role?

I generally agree with this, but I have two caveats:

If a class has different roles, it can have multiple viable builds. For example, necromancers would have a condition and power build in a perfectly balanced world, and guardians would have a bunker and DPS build.

There’s also some room for some traits to be subjective, which already happens in some trait and utility choices but should happen more often.

peter.9024:

Oh.. I was wondering why my heals still heal for so much even with poison on..

As a necromancer, I don’t have this problem because Consume Conditions actually benefits from poison.

But the problem was immediately obvious to me the first time I poisoned an engineer who dropped Elixir R to give me enough time to finish him. Before a recent patch, I could do that consistently. Now, it’s impossible.

dejay.2598:

probably because cleave/condi spam is so out of control that nobody cares too much to see it fixed yet

Two problems with that line of thinking:

This bug affects every class, even those that aren’t overpowered, such as dagger thieves.

The problem isn’t so much how poison is bugged but that it’s bugged at all. A healing debuff not working is a fundamental mechanical flaw in a game. If Guild Wars 2 is to become an e-sport, it can’t have such huge mechanics breaking on a whim and staying broken for a month or more.

For those that don’t know, poison currently doesn’t reduce the effect of heals a majority of the time. Basically, the debuff doesn’t work. It’s been bugged in this way for at least a month.

How can such a huge bug remain in the game for so long?

Can you imagine if Mortal Strike, Wound Poison, or any other healing debuff didn’t work in World of Warcraft? Does anyone doubt Blizzard would have fixed it within a couple hours, even though PvP wasn’t that game’s focus?

How about if Grievous Wounds didn’t work in League of Legends? How long do you think Riot would take to fix that?

Guild Wars 2 can’t become a successful e-sport if fundamental mechanics like this one are bugged for so long.

I’m still surprised how little outrage there’s been about the poison and weakness bugs until this thread. Those issues just blow my mind.

One of my constant concerns with Guild Wars 2 has always been that ArenaNet is way too slow to fix bugs and other issues that are blatantly game breaking.

For example, the poison bug: Does anyone on this forum doubt that Riot would hotfix such a huge issue in a matter of days or even hours? It’s pretty clear to me that this bug wouldn’t have lasted long enough to be known by the official forums if this was League of Legends.

But the balance problems are pretty kitten obvious as well. Let’s assume for a second that the developers’ assumptions about necromancers were right, and the metagame would eventually shift to balance them. What would that look like? Well, necromancers would still be stacking more conditions than can be cleansed because there simply isn’t and shouldn’t be enough cleansing in the game to deal with a constant barrage of five to eight conditions. They would still be bursting down people with Terror in seconds once stun breakers are down. A lot of their damage would still come through ridiculous AOEs that cover entire points. Let’s assume that’s somehow balanced. Does that make the ridiculous damage and thoughtless play OK? Absolutely not.

This balance problem applies to the game across the board. Let’s say the metagame adjusts to spirit rangers, sword/dagger thieves and scepter/dagger elementalists so they’re all balanced. Does that make the mindless, passive utility and damage of spirit rangers OK? Does that make the endless evades and teleports of a sword/dagger thief any more tolerable or genuinely thought-provoking? Does that make the instant, nearly unpredictable one-shot burst of an elementalist any more interesting or gameplay-enhancing? No, no and no. It’s not even a question.

Even from the start, this was a huge problem with main-hand dagger thieves. Were they always possible to counter? Absolutely. Did that make the one-shots acceptable? Absolutely not. (Obviously this build has fallen out of favor, but it still exemplifies how something can be balanced or even weak and still carry bad game mechanics, particularly when it comes to e-sports.)

The developers are too reluctant to nerf and seem to rely way too much on players forcing the meta to adjust to make a bad situation tolerable. But what that really does is just get players stuck with bad mechanics. Because once the meta adjusts, that’s the standard everything has to meet. That means every other class also has to get bad mechanics to fight the bad mechanics. Some might even call that power creep.

That’s way too complicated to be good game design.

I only disagree about Weakness. I think it’s fine.

Also, 50 percent of 1700 is 850, not 360.

We’re viewed as overpowered because we’re overpowered. Burning or at least three stacks of torment through Dhuumfire is required for the condition cleansing metagame, but Terror just allows for too much burst once necromancers have proper condition coverage.

Suggested changes: Make Dhuumfire apply three stacks of torment instead of burning. Switch Terror and Withering Precision in the Curses trait line, and remove Terror’s bonus damage.

Let’s put balance aside for a bit. Does anyone else feel like there is just way too much control and damage across the board?

It seems like most organized fights are decided by an assist train that just spams stuns, fears, and immobilize into a target as it helplessly implodes to too much damage. This even works on a guardian if an engineer or necromancer is involved.

Nerfing necromancers, particularly terror, would fix a lot of this. (Terror is the big problem in group fights because, even if the necromancer doesn’t have Dhuumfire, something else is likely applying burning.) But even before necromancers got buffed, I felt — and others I talked to did as well — that some of the burst put out by elementalists, mesmers, and thieves and condition damage put out by engineers was too much, even if every other class did the equivalent damage theoretically necessary to balance it out on a spreadsheet.

The buffs to weakness admittedly pushed this in what I see as the right direction, but it came as other classes got more control and damage, so it wasn’t sufficient in the big picture.

Just curious what others think. I admittedly don’t have all the answers for this question, and I’m not sure if there are any easy fixes.

DOT builds are completely normal in any MMORPG or RPG for that matter. I have no idea why this seems to be shocking to some of you.

Now, necromancers are still overpowered, even though people are clearly taking more condition removal. That’s why I advocate for removing terror’s bonus damage and making Dhuumfire apply torment instead of burning.

Amazing thread.