You’re reading too much into that post. It’s not coming back, especially after the upcoming ridicule the map will receive in the next State of the Game.
1- keep thinking that
2- temple was dropped from tournament rotation until adjustments were made.
Temple and Skyhammer aren’t remotely comparable.
I’m not “thinking” anything; I know it to be true. If Skyhammer is brought up in the next SOTG, it will receive so much ridicule that the developers will never consider touting it as a viable option ever again.
I understand you like the map so you’re optimistic about it, but the clear majority opinion won out in this case.
Tournament matches involve a ladder. They cannot be used for testing.
You’re reading too much into that post. It’s not coming back, especially after the upcoming ridicule the map will receive in the next State of the Game. It would take a total revamp to bring it back.
Remove all the holes, cover up all the walls with beams of energy that don’t let you get knocked off the ledges and keep the Skyhammer undodgeable.
That’s what I think should be done. Keeping the Skyhammer undodgeable forces people off the point and I think that is a mechanic that shouldn’t be lost.
I would be OK with this as long as the laser does less damage and doesn’t knock down.
We’ve taken Skyhammer out of the tournament rotation while we evaluate all of the feedback we’ve received over the last few days. The map may return to the rotation after we’ve made one (or more) adjustments to it.
Barring a radical revamp, no, you’re not.
Also, what was the justification for keeping out a more traditional map like Spirit Watch but including Skyhammer? How did that seem logical to the developers?
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It’s great and vindicating that Skyhammer is now out of tournament rotation, but I think the playerbase really needs an explanation for how such a terrible map got through the QA process and straight into the tournament rotation in the first place.
This gives me very little faith in ArenaNet’s vision for Guild Wars 2 as an e-sport.
I hope that, at the very least, this humbles overzealous developers in the future.
You must have missed this https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-new-skyhammer-pvp-map/ and here is a key quote that shows you how they got into this mess.
“We’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback from our playtesters,” Bearce says. “Pretty much as soon as we threw this in for testing, our internal playtesters said, ‘This has to go on Live.’”
Claypool adds, “People who have played this map already have been more excited about playing PvP. Skyhammer has a really dynamic, old-school feel; like a Quake map.”
The real question becomes who are these playtesters and why are they still allowed to be playtesters? To support ANet a little here, but if your testing shows positive feedback you would be expecting positive feedback when released; however, this shows whatever method they have for selecting playtesters or conducting playtesting is very flawed and should be reevaluated.
Wow. It seems like they actually knew all the problems the map would create, but they actually saw the problems as positives. That shows a fundamental division between the testers and the actual competitive PvP community. Extremely troubling.
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On top of having too much LOS, one-shot CC mechanics, and an overpowered cannon, the map makes mesmers and minion necromancers completely useless because their pets are immediately one-shot by cannon fire and do terrible in Z-axis situations.
They’re just messing up. With some rare exceptions, heals should be used on cooldown.
Saying warriors are feared on any map is a stretch, but good engineers definitely have a role in traditional maps.
It’s great and vindicating that Skyhammer is now out of tournament rotation, but I think the playerbase really needs an explanation for how such a terrible map got through the QA process and straight into the tournament rotation in the first place.
This gives me very little faith in ArenaNet’s vision for Guild Wars 2 as an e-sport.
I hope that, at the very least, this humbles overzealous developers in the future.
Every time I fight on this map, I’m just amazed at how much line of sight there is, particularly on Point B. It’s so easy to cause a giant stalemate just by running around in circles.
The cannon platform is the most poorly designed room in multiplayer video game history.
What’s sad is developers will likely take this to be highly subjective and emotional, when I’m being perfectly calm and serious.
High-rated burst elementalists and mesmers are the only thing I fear on my condition necromancer.
Some food for thought.
If people have to change more than utility skills, you’re making players change way too much. I don’t play necromancer because I want to play a power build sometimes and a condition build most of the time. I play a necromancer because I like its condition style and how it fits into the metagame. I’m OK with having to change some utility skills around, but I don’t want to change the fundamentals of the playstyle and build I ended up picking my class for. (Thankfully, my class and build isn’t much affected by this. But if I played any other class, I wouldn’t be queueing at all until this map falls off the rotation.)
If you insist on keeping this map, here are some ways to fix it:
1. The destructible platforms have to go. There’s no way they can exist without putting too much of an emphasis on knockbacks, fear, immobilize and stability.
2. It should not be possible to knock people off the edges of the map, for the same reasons destructible platforms can’t exist.
3. The turret should be easier to defend, but it does way too much damage and should be easier to avoid — perhaps by giving it a smaller radius and probably making it possible to dodge.
4. The map has way too much line of sight. It’s obscenely easy to avoid getting hit when both defending and attacking a node. This forces melee range even more so than the general point-capture system, which further dilutes class, build and playstyle diversity.
With all that said, I have to be honest with you: If you keep this map in the rotation, I will seriously consider quitting. I really love you guys and the overall direction the game has been heading in, but this map is, in my opinion, the worst competitive PvP map I have ever seen in any game. Keeping it in the game shows a level of design incoherency that no competitive PvP player should support.
Does anyone actually believe this map will remain in the tournament rotation? I think the only question is whether ArenaNet will hotfix it out before its turn finishes Friday. It’s such a disaster.
As a necromancer, I think this change is fine. The counter-play is being defensive for eight seconds or focusing another target.
Still, they really need to fix both Berserker Stance and Automated Response to allow higher-than-base-duration conditions to go through.
Yes. Achievements for three-capping multiple times, capturing however many points, and close matches (500-490 score) are some of the few ideas I’ve had.
They also need way more dungeon achievements for completing dungeons in special ways.
People are literally apologizing for attacking each other in my tournament matches because it’s understandable that someone would rather complain in map chat than play.
Again, cool casual map; awful tournament map.
I’m one of the few people that’s OK with Spirit Watch, but Skyhammer is literally the worst competitive PvP map I have seen in any game. The laser is way too big. There is way too much of a focus on Z-axis play. Stability, knockbacks, fear, and immobilize are way too important.
It’s fine to require players to slightly alter builds from match to match, but this map puts way too much of an emphasis on builds and classes.
It’s just awful. I’m sure it’s a fun casual map, but it needs to be hotfixed out of the tournament rotation right now.
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A guess: The change is probably being made by going through the back end of how stun and daze increases impact fear, so it will likely nerf Melandru runes as well.
I think you guys are overreacting to what I posted. The vibe I got from the necromancer discussion is the changes will be very minor. A Terror nerf and making Dhuumfire apply torment instead of burning were brought up, and both of those would nerf damage and coverage without hurting the class much.
Can anyone explain why the developers feel like they talk too much and why class balance discussions are typically rushed through? Does anyone really watch State of the Game for anything but class balance discussion with the developers? I feel like we know enough about the game’s features and mechanics at this point that it’s pointless to emphasize anything else.
I think it would make a lot more sense for the State of the Game to actually focus on discussions about the metagame. That would be a lot more interesting than hearing about how ArenaNet plans to adds tournaments and solo queue in the future, which everyone knew to begin with.
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if your condition duration is greater than 100%, your conditions will still hit the engi with the change to this trait.
I just tested it, and this is wrong. It just says “immune” to each condition I’m trying to apply.
This trait is hilariously broken. It’s actually terrible in team fights, but against a single condition-built character it is a total counter.
My suggestion: Make it cleanse one condition every five seconds, starting at 50 percent health.
It’s obviously a casual map, but it’s cool ArenaNet is OK with adding casual maps instead of hardcore, super serious maps all the time.
Necromancers: Damage and condition coverage will likely be nerfed. Survivability will be buffed through life force generation on weapons. Next patch, Sigil of Paralyzation will no longer affect fear.
Warriors: Heal cooldowns are being reduced, at least in PvP and WvW. Berserker Stance duration going up.
Ranger: Longbow rework and more active condition cleansing are in the works.
Thief: Shadow Trap is getting a much shorter duration and maybe a cast time for the shadowstep.
Guardians: Smite Condition may get a buff to scale off multiple conditions.
Mesmer: Nothing of interest.
Elementalists: Nothing of interest.
Engineer: Nothing of interest.
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Hopefully they announce some nerfs tomorrow.
I’m beginning to think Epidemic needs a nerf — probably through a longer cooldown. Its incredibly short cooldown doesn’t seem necessary with all the single-target pressure and default AOE necromancers are capable of now.
In fact, whatever happened to the AOE nerfs previously teased by ArenaNet?
Do the developers feel that damage is too high in general? I don’t mean just thief or elementalist burst; this includes the kind of condition burst necromancers can do as well.
Solo queue and in-game leaderboards would be huge. Random maps, better rewards in tournament matches and actual tournaments would be good.
You’re supposed to have some conditions on you at all times when fighting a condition class. You can’t fully immune direct damage, so why should that be possible with conditions?
I honestly think this ability is overrated. It doesn’t activate if dropped directly on a target and it can be rolled through. It’s possible to get feared through it, but that’s not always practical and gives up fear’s strength as an interrupt.
With that said, it should be nerfed because the last thing necromancers needed prior to this patch was more crowd control. Given that, ArenaNet should make Spectral Wall apply three stacks of torment instead of fear.
Decay is not working right now, or, if it is, it’s working way too slowly.
I would rather they just nerfed burning in general than remove it from the necro
Agreed, there is one common issue with all overpowered condition builds: permanent burning. It simply does too much damage and the durations are incredibly long on certain abilities.
Permanent burning is mathematically impossible. Conditions can only be boosted by 100 percent. That would put Dhuumfire’s burn at 8 seconds — not enough to match the 10-second cooldown.
I also don’t know anyone who runs more than 40-percent condition duration, including the Spite trait line.
Once again, I recommend you guys look at your death charts when you die to a necromancer. I think you’d be surprised how low burning is and how high Terror is, which solidifies burning’s purpose as merely providing more coverage.
I’ve never ever seen a game where conditions were a main mechanic. Conditions are ALWAYS a secondary mechanic used to bolster the character. It’s nonsensical to have pure condition builds since it’ll eventually degenerate into casting conditions then running in circles until they overwhelm your opponent.
Debuff and DOT builds have been standard in MMOs for as long as I can remember, so you must not play a lot of MMOs.
I agree with this. Blizzard, Valve and Riot cross-promote with third-party tournaments all the time. I have no idea why a few tweets and Facebook posts seem adequate to ArenaNet when they have enormous opportunities through the game launcher and official website.
I think Mist League was a bad idea at this stage of the game. It’s saturating the market.
But tournaments seem to be doing OK. ESL today had 5,000 or more viewers for all languages.
I’m unsure if it’s going to grow much more from here, though. ArenaNet has been very quiet about numbers lately, and the hype has definitely died down.
One thing that’s bothering me: Necromancers are overpowered, but how many teams are actually trying to adapt to them? How many tournament mesmers are now running Null Field? How about elementalists with Cleansing Fire? Or even necromancers with Well of Power? In today’s ESL tournament, I didn’t see any examples of people changing their utility skills for these team fights in which necromancers were applying massive pressure. Why?
It reminds me of Beast Cleave during World of Warcraft’s brief stint as an e-sport. That comp came out roaring in a tournament, destroying virtually everyone with ease. Most players complained and called for nerfs. Blizzard, as per usual, took forever to patch fixes. But a funny thing happened before Blizzard made any changes: One team — an RMP, for those who remember — changed its gear, talents and strat around. The next tournament, Beast Cleave lost, despite the absence of nerfs.
I’m worried necromancers will get nerfed then people will begin adapting to more than one condition build being viable. That could put necromancers in the gutter. Maybe that’s the agenda for some people on these forums, but it wouldn’t be good for the game.
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The “slight duration buff” to Doom and Spectral Wall getting fear were enormous buffs to fear and Terror. It’s the difference between interrupting a cast or wearing someone down and a full-on stunlock.
A surprising lack of necromancers at ESL today. I’m really curious how much the absurd condition damage will be mitigated by organized teams focusing down necromancers in the long term.
If axe auto-attack ever gets buffed, a well build with dagger/warhorn and axe/focus will be great. It’s probably pretty good right now; it’s just overshadowed by how crazy condition builds are at the moment.
The problem is Soul Reaping is almost entirely selfish, defensive mechanics. Ideally, it would have a 30-point trait that’s lucrative for condition builds and actually helps the entire team. Curses and Spite have that with Terror and Dhuumfire because those abilities provide so much offensive pressure for an entire team. Soul Reaping just feels dull and selfish in comparison.
I wonder what would happen if Terror and Dhuumfire were both 30-point traits in Curses. That seems like it would have been a much better option in the end.
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It still surprises me how much people overlook mesmers. Obviously necromancers are the most overpowered class right now, but mesmers are in nearly every organized team. Why does that get a free pass?
Maybe it’s because the problem is almost entirely Portal. I still don’t know why that mechanic hasn’t been given to another class in need. Engineer would be a good choice that would fit with the class’s theme. Ranger and warrior are good options too if ArenaNet just wants to ham-fist the mechanic without much thought about class themes.
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Nerfing necromancer heals or anything else related to necromancer survivability is literally the last thing that needs to be done with the class.
Keep in mind that nerfing terror and fear will also nerf other build like 0/30/10/0/30 and other variant of terror build that doesn’t use burn.
That’s why they need to buff 30 points into Soul Reaping and Curses for condition builds when or after they nerf Terror. Right now, there’s very little reason to go that far up both trees as a condition build.
But they really can’t worry about keeping every build balanced when necromancers already have a build that’s overpowered. Fixing the overpowered build takes precedent because it does a lot more damage to the game than a lack of build diversity.
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Burning is necessary for condition coverage in the metagame. The trait could and probably should do three stacks of torment instead of burning, but the coverage is necessary. That’s why necromancers had to run with engineers last patch, which was an awful requirement to put on any class.
The problem is really Terror and the buffs to fear capabilities, particularly through close-range Doom and Spectral Wall. It’s just too much when coupled with burning.
So since burning is necessary for consistent coverage, it’s Terror that has to go or at least be nerfed. Fears should also be toned down to where they were last patch, so Doom should be 1 second even in close range and Spectral Wall should do something else (maybe apply torment).
Also, you guys should check your death screens when you die to a necromancer. I think you’d be surprised how low burning is and how high Terror is. (This is also why burning is a better option in terms of balance; it doesn’t do that much damage, but it provides reliable coverage.)
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Wow. Necromancers are overpowered, but some people are getting really carried away.
Wait, what? Necromancers are overpowered, but they definitely don’t have that much life force generation with the 30/30/10/0/0 build everyone is going crazy about.
You dodge Doom by dodging when a necromancer dips into Death Shroud. That will get it 90 percent of the time.
Yes, Spectral Wall can be dodged through.