You’re pulsing hits on them, so yes, it’s intended. I’ve dropped wells on eles with shocking aura recharged before, and it’s my own stupid fault. Think about it.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I agree that it’s fine as a stopgap measure, but not a good long term solution. This instance doesn’t strike me as a ‘serious case’ though. Would guardians suddenly be unable to run dungeons without the extra 5s on SY?
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
And there it is. PvE skills split, now there’s no reason we can’t make the game easier.
That’s not it. PvE bosses scale far beyond the capability of any player to mitigate no matter how defensive they build. The reason why is that the skills are balanced towards fighting other players, and not fighting PvE bosses.
There’s nothing difficult about a warrior pulling out a rifle and kiting a champion/boss/whatever. However, a warrior with a mace and shield in hand standing toe-to-toe with an enemy and using his skills and dodges to survive can be difficult, if it weren’t currently impossible. Making self-heals stronger gives the skilled player a chance of being able to do that, instead of mindlessly kiting (which is easy either way).
If we’re being honest though I would rather boss/champion damage scaled down rather than skills being scaled up for PvE.
Agreed, and good point. I don’t PvE, so I wasn’t aware that bosses are impossible to deal with unless kited, and that’s definitely something that could use attention. Likewise agreed on tuning content for the characters, rather than characters for the content.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Now that we’re opening the floodgates, all skills that go in the healing slots need both effectiveness doubled and cooldowns halved in order to scale them properly with incoming damage in PvE.
Most, if not all, utility skills need cooldowns halved in PvE. Most, if not all, elites need their cooldowns reduced to one-fourth of their current values.
There’s no reason for these skills to be so restricted in PvE anymore if skill splits are happening, and boss damage scales far beyond the player’s capability to mitigate that damage no matter how much defense they pump. There’s a difference between not relying on a tank, and no one being capable of taking sustained damage in PvE, and now that there are skill splits there are no worries about PvP balance being broken.
And there it is. PvE skills split, now there’s no reason we can’t make the game easier. Let’s start by having one guardian skill work at double effectiveness in PvE and take it from there.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I agree with MrsangelD. Content cannot stay difficult for all players forever, it’s a really bad point you’re trying to make with this whole “not nerfing pve skills will make content a joke”. The more time players spend doing the content, the more likely they’re to discover or think of ways to complete it easily and efficiently (see: gw1 speed clears).
A split was in no way responsible for what you seem to think was so bad in GW1. If skills needed to be nerfed in regards to PvE, they were. This works both ways. How would you feel if core skills were nerfed in PvP because it was being abused in PvE? I imagine tears.
Balancing classes for PvE/PvP by splitting them stops either one from being hurt by the other. It’s not the splits fault gw1 PvE ended up like it did, it’s anets lack of care to nerf what needed to be nerfed i.e. shadow form, energy surge, sliver armour, whirling etc etc etc.
Sorry which premise or conclusion that I posted are you disagreeing with?
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
OK, I’ll clarify a bit and take away the extraneous. 95% of builds use 5% of the skills. If you think that’s good skill balancing I think we’re just going to disagree.
Some classes don’t appear in any meta team build unless there’s a spot for a ‘misc guy’. Other classes appear in every meta team build. Does that seem like classes are well balanced?
Content that was designed to take so long its broken into sections so you can do one at a time is being cleared in twenty minutes. Balanced?
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I disagree that gw pve was unbalanced, with the two exceptions being pema-sins & ursan which no longer exist in those forms because arena net saw the unbalance and fixed it.
Those are team builds meaning they take a full group to run. It actually proves my point, somebody took the time to see what the mobs in those areas had then looked too see which skills could counter them and do it fast. That’s not unbalance its simply using the given skills to accomplish something as efficiently as possible.
Anyway, I don’t think FoW was designed to be completed in 7 minutes. I don’t think it was meant to be soloed. I don’t think DoA was meant to be completed in 17 minutes either. That’s not balance, that’s ridiculously easy. Might as well play farmville. If your ‘elite endgame’ areas can be cleared, on hard mode, with 99.9% success rate, in less than 20 minutes, and usually take about 30, your balance is probably a little out.
More to the point, if 5% of your available skills make their way into 95% of the builds people run, your skill balance is probably more than a little out.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Then the problem comes from the balance of PvE skills, not from the fact that they are split…
I agree. However, the split clearly doesn’t have any impact, it just gives them more work to do, nullifying any potential gains. So there’s no benefit.
It does on the other hand, have a negative impact on pvp.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I disagree that gw pve was unbalanced, with the two exceptions being pema-sins & ursan which no longer exist in those forms because arena net saw the unbalance and fixed it.
the difference is you feel like you’re progressing in games with treadmills and you dont in gw2
It’s called gating. Basically, it says ‘You must do content x before you can do content y. Because’. Sometimes it says ‘You must do content x y times before you can do content z. Because we’re struggling to keep up the content’.
Usually it’s masked behind dps requirements and ehp requirements and etc etc, but all it amounts to is ‘You need to farm x dungeon y times so that you’ll be able to do z dungeon’.
Other times it’s just blatant, and boy did I enjoy tanking 90 gazillion ubrs runs for onyxia keys. Oh wait, no I didn’t.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
By farmed you mean you soloed content intended for groups of 8, in hard mode, with no chance of dying, right? So in what way did splitting skills ‘balance’ pve? It didn’t, it doesn’t. All it does is throw up barriers to pvp, and prove that people will pve no matter how unbalanced it is.
No Chance of dying? Are you kidding me?!?!?! I died tons of times while farming content. Yes I did solo it but it wasn’t without risks and there were plenty of times I died while doing it. I think you are over exaggerating in an attempt to make a point.
PVE skills were balanced and are still being changed and updated in Guild Wars. Just because you may have only played PVE meta builds to farm doesn’t mean we all did that. My husband and I completed pretty much all the content in guild wars together using hero’s. Including Slavers, UW, FOW, and DOA. We didn’t use meta builds we used builds we worked on to be the best for a given situation based on where we we’re going. Just because you can’t understand how to counter the enemies that are in the content you’re trying to do, doesn’t mean it’s unbalanced it means you haven’t spent the time to see what skills they have and what you can bring to the table to counter it.
Um, does any of that beyond the first four sentences have anything to do with what I said? FYI, I played almost the same way as you in GW1 PvE, as did most players I think. Heroes, my own builds, etc. I never did complete foundry though, although obviously I could have gone with a group instead. None of that means it was balanced when I could have levelled a sin in a few hours and have completed everything a few hours after that, instead of ‘figuring out how to counter the enemies, spending the time to see what skills they have and what I can bring to the table to counter it’ for each area.
Which one of those conclusions are you disagreeing with? Or are you disagreeing with the premise that GW1 PvE was unbalanced?
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
The main issue in most of the lines is crippled tier 1 traits that don’t have any synergy with other traits in the line, and sticking most of the synergies next to each other in tier 3. It’s not that bad though.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
More specifically, whether being able to outgear content is a good thing.
You just dislike the idea of progress.
I want a challenge that rewards me for beating it. Cause if I just want a challenge then I’d PvP. The reward doesn’t necessarily have to be an item with +5000 damage, removing lootgrind is way easy too, you only get the best item the 1st time you actually complete it. Gives you a reason to not want to run something over n over to grind.
There is no progress remember? You get better gear, the mobs get better stats, you get nowhere. You’re on a treadmill. We are talking specifically about whether outgearing content is a good thing.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Let’s clear up what I’m saying here, since people still seem to be under the misapprehension that splitting helps pve balance.
1. GW1 had split skills.
2. GW1 PvP was pretty well balanced.
3. GW1 PvE was horribly unbalanced.
4. More people played PvE than PvP in GW1.
Conclusions:
1. Splitting doesn’t help with balancing both sides, it just means more work trying to balance the extra skill versions.
2. People will PvE no matter what.
3. More skill versions means more complexity means greater barriers to PvP means less PvPers means less PvP.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
before more skills get pve/pvp splits, go now into the mists, or an spvp or tpvp match and ask “i play pve and my skills have the same stats as yours. do you respect me and my pve accomplishments?”
if you screenshot at least 5 people saying yes, i will man up and recognize the magnificence of pve and the prestige of pve skills being exactly the same as pvp skills
But I don’t play pve, so perhaps you could give it a shot.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
English is not your primary language is it Spoolooni?
Clearly you’ve stooped down to throwing insults. Perhaps anyone here shouldn’t take you seriously at all.
No, I’m asking, so as not to be insulting. If it is, well then, consider this constructive criticism:
90% of your post relates to nothing I’ve said at all. If you want to discuss it, maybe you should address at least one of the points I’ve raised. The only part of your post that is in any way relevant is the ‘insulting’ statement about how pathetic it is to judge balance splits based on social pressure. The problem with that is that anet themselves have said that they are aware of and trying to reduce the barriers to pvp, both social and otherwise. Tell me what happens when you type /rank in gw2.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.
BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.
You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.
Depending on the sport you either do it to beat someone or just be a better team member. But the sport thing is only for PvP and that’s not really the discussion here. There is no real PvE. Why can’t any of you sheep see that? Stop thinking that Anet is god and somehow improved everything about mmos. There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.
You don’t know what a skinner box is, do you?
Again:
Other games – your gear gets better, the mobs get tougher, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
GW2 – your gear stays the same, the mobs stay the same, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
Aka no progress.
Other games – your gear gets better, the new mobs are tougher but you can always go back to the weaker ones and have an easier time killing them cause you’ve progressed.
GW2 – Kill stuff, wait around, get a new skin, nothing.
Your argument is weak.
And yours is ‘I need to outgear content’.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.
BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.
You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.
Depending on the sport you either do it to beat someone or just be a better team member. But the sport thing is only for PvP and that’s not really the discussion here. There is no real PvE. Why can’t any of you sheep see that? Stop thinking that Anet is god and somehow improved everything about mmos. There is no rpg element, there is no progress on your character after you hit level 80 on it. Getting more skins isn’t really something that will keep players playing guild wars2 for years to come. This feels like the game version of an apple product. Fanboys are harsh defending everything about it and trying to ignore the elephant in the room which is non-existent PvE.
You don’t know what a skinner box is, do you?
Again:
Other games – your gear gets better, the mobs get tougher, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
GW2 – your gear stays the same, the mobs stay the same, no net difference, the only change is cosmetic.
The real differences? Content doesn’t become any less challenging as time goes on. Drops from dungeon x are just as good as drops from dungeon y. Once you’re level 80, you can try any part of the game, no raid instances that only 1-5% of the population see.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I also welcome the splitting of PVE/PVP skills. Trying to balance skills towards two completely different types of game play only serves to frustrate players.
As far as GW skill split goes. It was a good thing, I played the game for 6 years and I never played the meta I spent A TON of time theory crafting and testing builds. Yes I farmed, but never with builds I got off of somebody else, they were builds I came up with myself and they worked.
By farmed you mean you soloed content intended for groups of 8, in hard mode, with no chance of dying, right? So in what way did splitting skills ‘balance’ pve? It didn’t, it doesn’t. All it does is throw up barriers to pvp, and prove that people will pve no matter how unbalanced it is.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
ITT, skinner box mice try to paint people who value skill over gear as communists.
BTW I love how bad the sport analogy is. Here’s your analogy, it’s very easy –
You practice a sport, you get better at it. You practice a game, you get better at it.
You seem to lack an understanding of the entire concept of needing to get good to win.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I agree with the splitting of PVE and PVP skills, it worked fine in GW1 and it is the best way to balence overpowered PVP skils without disturbing PVE players. Like in this case with save your selves, 5 sec of it in PVE would not have been worth the skill slot, it is just too short with everything that follows you for miles in dungeons. I’m very happy you made this choice Arena net, please keep this up!!
Fine as in solo fow in 45 minutes? Fine as in full group fow in 7 minutes? Fine like shadowform? GW1 PvE was not balanced. It worked and was fun for many despite that. So what good does the split do?
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I deeply appreciate ArenaNet splitting PvE skills from PvP skills!
I loathe my PvE skills being “adjusted” (read: nerfed) because of PvP.
Separating the PvE skill abilities from the PvP skill abilities ensures that the PvE skills are NOT compromised because of necessary adjustments needing to be made to that skill in PvP (and visa versa).
It simply devalues your achievements in pve anyway when you get to use op skills, further dividing the community. Take your nerfs with the rest of us so pve remains challenging, and pve players don’t get laughed at by pvp players. Again, see gw1 community. The most common insult in the laughable trollfest that was ra wasn’t ‘scrub’ or ‘noob’, it was ‘stick to pve’.
Constantly skipping balance adjustments for pve was a contributing factor in pve becoming so easy.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
It has been proven to fail in a sense that complexity is created but at the same time, the benefits are prominent over the long run.
If this were true, gw1 pve wouldn’t be the broken collection of builds farming the hardest areas of the game in 5-20minutes that it is. It achieves nothing except making pve very very easy, not ‘pve balance’. That’s fine, but it also throws up an additional entry barrier to pvp, and that’s not.
This also strikes me as a fairly unnecessary split. 5s less Save Yourselves wouldn’t exactly break guardians in PvE.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
They’re bad. Let’s face it, gw1 PVE was quite a ways from what you’d call balanced, despite the fact that it worked. The ‘split to retain balance in both areas’ approach has been proven to fail. I’m hoping that "Save Yourselves!’ fix is a temporary stopgap rather than a taste of things to come.
You don’t encourage people to try out PvP by changing things they think they already know as soon as they enter. Nor are the barriers to entry lowered by having 300 extra skills to learn if this is indeed the way you’re headed.
The interaction change between mirror of anguish and reaper’s protection also seems a bit hacky btw.
Hopefully this criticism is taken as intended, I love the game, and am looking forward to the patch when I can get online, but that split is a little concerning in the context of a few other aims that you guys have stated.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Actually, this thread gave me an idea. You could probably give up reaper’s protection for foot in the grave. Seems stronger. Fear still doesn’t work as well as knockbacks though.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Slow (but effective) condition removal off point, heavily limited access to stability, and short fear duration all combine to make it too easy to decap on a necro. They’re not very good in clocktower at all. In terms of survivability though, they’re hard to beat, especially vs numbers.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Thief vs anyone else – no need to dodge, no need for toughness gear, no need to aoe, no need to shut up and listen, no need to use unusual weapons. I think thieves are fine, but these posts need to stop, they’re ridiculous.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Ascii what’s the reasoning behind taking Close to Death instead of Axe Training? Last time I tested it, Axe Training was around 30% or 40% damage increase, alongside the cooldown reduction.
This sounded amazing so I went to test, it’s been changed I guess. Steady weapon with base power +30 in spite, axe1 hit for 21. Took axe mastery, increased to 22.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Because many of us don’t like the gameplay of a certain OP profession? Is it THAT hard to understand?
I have a Thief. I deliberately refuse to play it because it’s just too easy and anti-fun for everyone involved.
Apart from ’don’t like the gameplay’ being the kind of complaint that should definitely refer to my sig, it’s a nonissue.
Thief is not the only viable profession, far from it. If it was, you can bet anet would be well aware that 5 thief teams were all over the place, and would make changes fast. You’d still be wasting your time to post about it.
I still think their burst or mobility may get toned down a bit, because it’s limiting the viability of some other builds, but nothing said here will change it one way or the other. Probably not the mobility though, they’d never see play.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Agree. Sure, if the post highlights that a certain class may be warping the meta, fine, talk about class. Otherwise, see sig, reroll, and let people discuss real issues as they arise. ‘Class X is overpowered!’ is not a legitimate complaint. If 5 mesmer or 5 thief teams start dominating, you’ve got an issue. Fact is, that won’t happen.
If certain classes are never seen in competitive matches, you’ve got an issue, and that may happen. If it does, you can bet anet doesn’t need you to point it out, they know, so stop wasting your time posting about it.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I’ll download some recording software one of these days. Not that there’s any point, I could tank pvp jesus and his disciples for four hours and half the responses would be ‘oh but they were terrible’. Transparent agenda much?
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
With 15 in soul reaping, well recharge, protection on wells, 4 wells, 4 earth and 2 grove you can get nearly 100% protection uptime. That lowers to just under 80% if you want the root effect from grove 6 instead (or aura from earth 6). That assumes they get you to 50% of course. 6 sources means if you get boonstripped it’s up again fast. With well of power and putrid mark you have decent condition control, add a dagger offhand if you want more. Well of power will almost always give you vigor, and often extra protection too. Plus well of corruption turning fury into blind and stripping 10 stacks of might off 2 or 3 enemies does good things for your survivability, as does well of darkness. If things get really hairy, plague and spam 2.
Not to mention well of blood gets five hundred percent of your healing power added to it, and staff lets you maintain permanent regen for another twelve percent per second. It still leaves healing power lagging behind vitality if the fight is shorter than 40s and you’re solo, but in general use it pushes it over the top. If you’re bunkering though, a vitality amulet is probably worth more than a healing power one, since if backup can’t get to you in less than 40s you’ve probably already lost the game, although the extra 200 toughness on shamans over soldiers can’t be ignored. (I’d love to see an amulet like soldier’s that replaces power with condition damage).
On top of that you have deathshroud.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Highest a necro can get without buffs is ~1450 as far as I’m aware. With self-buffs, ~2.5k would be possible for a short time. Mesmer can almost hit 1600 unbuffed.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
Staff 2 can get up around 5k aoe bleeding on a 4.75s recharge with .75s cast time, along with aoe regen. That’s nearly a thousand sustained aoe dps right there. It does plenty of damage, it just takes 12s to get up to speed, by which time a lot of fights are decided.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
