Guild Wars 2

Littlefeather.8623:

Maniac.5163:

zastari.1730:

Hey Maniac,

If you didn’t know, Outmanned buff is locational and is based on the amount of other players within a certain radius.

Hope this information helps!

Umm, no.
It’s based on how many players are in that particular WvW borderlands map in each team. By your logic, anyone in the jumping puzzle would have the outmanned buff. Hope that helps.

I think what he meant was the outmanned buff is based on location on the map and even sometimes is buggy with it. Alot of things affect it but having experience in having that buff I can say it flickers on and off sometimes, but if you have it for atleast 1-2 ticks then yea you can definetly say you are outmanned.

Considering I was the last of my guild members responding to an assault on the garrison and I had waypointed in from Hills and ran all the way to that pathway, I’d say it had gone a couple ticks. I really have nothing to prove anyway. I just don’t understand why Darkhaven is so upset when they are actually gaining 2 rating points. People seem to forget that Fort Aspenwood is a ~1700 rated server while Maguuma/Darkhaven hover around ~1500. Kinda big difference, you may as well get used to it because Yak’s and Crystal Desert are exactly the same. Tier 4 blows for everyone involved, I’d rather be on the losing end though.

zastari.1730:

Hey Maniac,

If you didn’t know, Outmanned buff is locational and is based on the amount of other players within a certain radius.

Hope this information helps!

Umm, no.
It’s based on how many players are in that particular WvW borderlands map in each team. By your logic, anyone in the jumping puzzle would have the outmanned buff. Hope that helps.

Regrets of Sini.6083:

As a FA player, I really want to sound my displeasure at the people who went recruiting transfer carpetbaggers for our server. This week, and resulting mind-numbing boredom, is a direct result of your efforts. To make it worse, next week when we have much harder matchup all these fair weather friends will move on to the next winning server.

Please learn from your mistakes and Do Not Encourage these kittenning kittens from kittening any of our kitten matchups. Kitten!

Is this your first time in WvW or something? Did you miss our last matches against Maguuma etc? This is how T4 has been for a long while. We are rated higher than them by a large margin.

I love how the new trend is to say FA is full of “server hoppers” because we are winning a match in Tier 4..

@Littlefeather: All of us are so tired from server hopping, we couldn’t use any tactical strategy on the few supply camps you occasionally hold. We don’t really see the point of throwing golem rushes at our own water gates over and over. I guess you guys just have exceptionally better players than our sub 80’s doing map completion. Cheers

Must be our massive 30 man Euro transfer .. there’s no other way that FA could beat two servers rated lower than them

I’m not going to press the issue but those of you who are regular in WvW know that isn’t true. In fact, we posted videos in the Mag/FA/DB thread showing a good 20+ Maguuma being wiped at garrison inner water gate by 8 guild members, wiped at SMC lord room by less than 12 guild members etc. ULTD are also kind enough to provide us with their visual entertainment where they are clearly outnumbered in skirmishes.
By all means, feel free to say this match was determined by coverage superiority. Claiming we can only win if it’s a 2:1 ratio in a roundabout way is still false no matter how you put it. Keep in mind when we have 100% of all maps you’re bound to find a high ratio of inexperienced PvP players who are there simply to complete map.

I know that [RE] is well aware we don’t have 24/7 coverage across the maps and take good advantage of it as we map hop and stay on their tail so they stop throwing golems all over the place. Cheers to those guys – they don’t just pay attention to the scoreboard and roll with a defeatist attitude, Darkhaven is lucky to have them.

EDIT: Also, since I had to do it to prove a point to Yak’s Bend – I’ll do it for you guys too, obligatory screenshot. My timestamps are different in chat and server time because chat uses my PC clock (my timezone) while the one on the map is the server time, Pacific I believe.

[WE] – Winning Everyday
[ABC] – Always Be Chopping
[RE] – Rethesis

Pretty much the only guilds who have shown ability in groups of 5 or more.
Skill wise I’d rank [WE] the highest. To the guy saying it took a “60 man Fort Aspenwood force and a golem” to kick 20 players out of FA borderlands, well I guess that’s sorted then and you’re just 3x better than our hardcore WvW players, huh? Give yourself a pat on the back.

Main: Ranger
Alt: Warrior

Tier 1 : Mesmer, Guardian, Bunker Ele, Thief
Tier 2 : Engineer, Necro, Warrior
Tier Useless: Ranger

He’s actually right though. I played the graveyard shift and for at least the first three days of our “comeback” the PPT actually dropped during the NA afternoon and prime time. The tipping point that brought our morale up was when we locked down FA borderlands overnight and then and kept it completely green all day at all costs. That seemed to bring a lot of PvE players back to WvW.

With the boosted morale, we were getting +600 PPT overnight quite easily. I would watch it drop as low as +200 PPT during NA mid-afternoon and prime time. We wiped Yak’s Bend borderlands completely upgraded with 2 alpha siege golems and 18 people. They never really turned up to re-cap stuff after that, instead crying about us getting transfers on the forum. The funny part is that the “night-capping” crew was just original guilds who were staying up late.

Yak’s doesn’t really have anyone that stays up that late, they have a strong oceanic who play hardcore during the weekend and then back off during the working week.

shunobee.6907:

Sheesh, you guys really hate each other. I feel like I’m intruding on a nasty domestic argument or something.

You should see the Yak’s Bend v Tarnished Coast v Crystal Desert thread. Or any European thread about Desolation.

Maguuma in such a rush to get back to Tier 4 already? ..

I think it was [RE] Rethesis who just golem snatched FA Garrison. Well played to you guys, funny stuff.
Maybe this will teach our server how to defend and communicate. Doubt it.

Mada.5319:

Maniac.5163:

Warscream.6817:

about the new kitten guild joining the server.
It was a miss comunication on my part, the new kitten guild that joined is (jpn) not (pro)

And keep up the good fight FA! we are rocking it this week! also good fight fight Henge tonight at garrison and please remove that treb in your spawn its pretty cheap play

[JPN] – I have seen this guild bringing a small team to WvW longer than a month back.. they have been registered since 23rd of Sept.

http://www.gw2guilds.org/guilds/us/fort-aspenwood

There are two guilds with the [JPN] tag. Have they both been here for a while?

Two registered on that website, same leader and same guild website. Do you know of another in-game? The only [JPN] I see in WvW are “White Macaron” and they have maybe 15 people spread across maps as a rough estimate at GMT+9 afternoon/late evening which is their timezone. They have been here for at least two months.

Yeah, fair enough. Next week will reveal a lot more.
Time to start stocking some siege up.

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

The tooltip adds PvP armor and regular armor together.

I don’t understand this response. Perhaps you could clarify as I have the same problem.
Basically I have six of the Superior Rune of the Dolyak. This is in normal gear, not sPvP gear. For some unknown reason, it shows 7/6 runes equipped, which is incorrect. Screenshot attached.

Warscream.6817:

about the new kitten guild joining the server.
It was a miss comunication on my part, the new kitten guild that joined is (jpn) not (pro)

And keep up the good fight FA! we are rocking it this week! also good fight fight Henge tonight at garrison and please remove that treb in your spawn its pretty cheap play

[JPN] – I have seen this guild bringing a small team to WvW longer than a month back.. they have been registered since 23rd of Sept.

http://www.gw2guilds.org/guilds/us/fort-aspenwood

Zenyatoo.4059:

Maniac.5163:

Hey, this post is only really relevant to FA players but since we don’t have a server sub forum I’m posting it here. I have been looking for the source of these rumours surrounding the “massive influx” of “200 players” we have received that we never seem to see in WvW. I finally tracked down who this “Rush” guy was in-game and this is my conversation with him.

As a side note – I believe the Euro guild [Asg] may be joining us today so be sure to give them a warm welcome if you see them out there. (even weirder coincidence? I got one of their members in the screenshot by accident.)

P.S. – The “maybe 100 man” guild is LLAC. I think they send about 10 people to WvW for 3-5 hours during NA early morning. I haven’t seen a bigger group than that, feel correct me if I’m wrong. – Monster Madness is their commander.
P.P.S – No, we’re not Japanese in [PRO], nor do we put 70 members in WvW. In fact, as a rough estimate 90% of our members reside in the USA. Also, given our name is “The Protectorate of Aspenwood”, no, we didn’t recently transfer over lol.

Wait did he call PRO japanese? I know ibludgeon used to be part of the night crew, but that doesnt make his guild japanese :o

Yeah, it was pretty weird to get told that my own guild was the “new Japanese transfer” just because we play the graveyard shift, haha. Rumours just get out of control sometimes.

Actium.8765:

lol holy jeebus

Heh, sometimes I think some people only join WvW when we are in an unbalanced match up just to do this sort of thing and waste manpower. They won’t even be there next week when we have a challenging fight ahead of us.

I know you guys at HoD & DH are capable fighters with sound tactics but given our numbers advantage in FA if you want a fairer fight you should all just focus your main forces on one map that seems it has poor leadership/control from FA. Don’t bother upgrading stuff as it will just be lost overnight, however this doesn’t mean you can’t cost us some money and raise your morale by hitting our upgraded points quickly and silently. If the mindless zerg figures it out, hop to another map. Just my 2 cents anyways.

Come to Fort Aspenwood, if you like. We own pretty much every point on all maps at the moment due to the famous unbalanced match up in Tier 4. Plus we need more dedicated WvW players for our Tier 3 fight next week.

Shout out to [RE] Rethesis from Darkhaven. Your little bunker crew is pretty tough. I look forward to fighting you guys again.

Cheers

Hey, this post is only really relevant to FA players but since we don’t have a server sub forum I’m posting it here. I have been looking for the source of these rumours surrounding the “massive influx” of “200 players” we have received that we never seem to see in WvW. I finally tracked down who this “Rush” guy was in-game and this is my conversation with him.

As a side note – I believe the Euro guild [Asg] may be joining us today so be sure to give them a warm welcome if you see them out there. (even weirder coincidence? I got one of their members in the screenshot by accident.)

P.S. – The “maybe 100 man” guild is LLAC. I think they send about 10 people to WvW for 3-5 hours during NA early morning. I haven’t seen a bigger group than that, feel correct me if I’m wrong. – Monster Madness is their commander.
P.P.S – No, we’re not Japanese in [PRO], nor do we put 70 members in WvW. In fact, as a rough estimate 90% of our members reside in the USA. Also, given our name is “The Protectorate of Aspenwood”, no, we didn’t recently transfer over lol.

As long as Fort Aspenwood and Yak’s Bend bounce between Tier 3 and Tier 4 – this tier will probably remain this way.

Why do our elementalists always get raged at on the first page? Lol

Darkhaven doing a great job with defensive siege placement and trying to cut supplies in EB. [PRO] and [PTX] got it locked down though.

I don’t need an incentive to kill other players. Nothing is more fun in this game than winning a skirmish heavily outnumbered, stopping a 5 golem siege cold with 5-10 players or fighting 3 players trying to gank you and surviving to tell the tale.

Krakah.3582:

[ … ]Oh also Anet please don’t let the other servers see the out-maned buff, it’s like the a huge please kitten me sign.

I agree. It’s irritating when the opposition knows you are under committed in a particular map just because they saw the “Outmanned!” buff on a friendly. It’s basically screaming for the enemy zerg to hop maps and PvDoor before you can get reinforcements.

Good luck goons! <3

I expect quality screenshots from [PANG] and [GOON].

Good luck YB. You’re really gonna need to put in the hard yards overnight.

Good luck all. [PRO] looking forward to the late night shift to meet the infamous DH Oceanic crew.

Hubris.7039:

Maniac.5163:

In that disclaimer I was referring to the entire ladder in general & if you look at the rest of the post, you would see I anticipate the outcome to be exactly what the “prediction” ladder is already showing.

Maniac.5163:

Well, none of this is confirmed but it is likely: FA is actually going to move up in ranking.
http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

These two sentences are contradictory.

You are 10th. You will be 10th next week. That is not moving up in ranking.

Rating, yes. Ranking, no.

Could you nitpick a little more? I didn’t use your preferred term for the position of the server in comparison to the others, this is just being petty. Rating of what? The servers performance? Um, in comparison to other servers? Sure sounds like a ranking system to me. I didn’t say we were moving up a tier in the next match up. I actually made it clear in that post I was presuming we won’t.

Hubris.7039:

Maniac.5163:

Bedinar.1754:

Hey everybody, just wanted to say thank you to all the people who in the last page or so who have kept their comments positive. This thread was a downer, but it feels like people are working to make it better.

On another note, do we know who everyone will be fighting with the reset? (both predictions would be cool).

Well, none of this is confirmed but it is likely: FA is actually going to move up in ranking.
http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

none of this is confirmed

The links don’t lie. See you tonight, FA!

I don’t really understand. No, numbers don’t lie – you know how the numbers change as the match progresses, right? So final results cannot be predetermined until it’s mathematically impossible for the predicted match ups to change. In that disclaimer I was referring to the entire ladder in general & if you look at the rest of the post, you would see I anticipate the outcome to be exactly what the “prediction” ladder is already showing.

Moddo.7105:

And people from FA that “claim” you have outmanned buff might want to go find out how it is suppose to work. So unles ET server is hiding a big zerg well there is no way you should have outmanned buff in a BG.

Just had to re-up this, post was auto-deleted for being in caps.

Bedinar.1754:

Hey everybody, just wanted to say thank you to all the people who in the last page or so who have kept their comments positive. This thread was a downer, but it feels like people are working to make it better.

On another note, do we know who everyone will be fighting with the reset? (both predictions would be cool).

Well, none of this is confirmed but it is likely: FA is actually going to move up in ranking.
http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

Looks like Darkhaven and HoD for FA. IIRC Darkhaven has an Oceanic crew that is not to be underestimated which also happens to be our weakest time slot.
HoD has put up resistance against TC & CD even after the exodus it has experienced in recent times, similar in ways to ET whom also have a fighting spirit and healthy sense of server pride.
I have watched a video provided by [MF] in their current WvW thread and I see a lot of underleveled/undergeared players but a strong will to fight and they are still willing to drop expensive siege and move aggressively when the odds are stacked against them which I admire. I look forward to it, however my prediction is FA will be on a serious blood lust next match up so they will have their work cut out for them.

You will be up against Crystal Desert and Tarnished Coast. Very strong opponents and if your server commits 100% it should be a decent three-way battle that will decide your place in Tier 3. Perhaps knowing that we will be nipping at your heels for that spot in Tier 3 will give you the motivation to exact revenge upon Crystal Desert this time around.

Shout out to [TOG] , [OTG], [COCO] and the Badgers. You guys are good fun and excellent opponents. You have enabled us to hone our small gang up to a sharp spear point that is leading the charge during our weakest hours, which in my humble opinion has helped to dramatically influence the overall point margin. See you again next graveyard shift and I expect it will be intense fighting every time, just what I WvW for.

Cheers

This is actually something I support, although in ET’s case it wouldn’t have helped them, nor would it have helped HoD – bandwagon queues are still bound to happen and large guilds do come and go. WvW is designed for competition 24/7 so the populations just need to be balanced out for full coverage of all hours of the day. How Arenanet can begin to achieve this is by merging the Euro and NA ladder into an “International” ladder.

Off topic
How can you be upset with the winning margin getting closer? Isn’t the whole point of WvW the competition? Somehow I feel like you wouldn’t make this thread if you still had a 150k~ lead.
Fort Aspenwood has been 1600~ rated since week long match ups began. Yak’s Bend has been 1400 – 1500. Maybe you guys just don’t go as hard as we do during the weekdays. I know all the insomniacs here at [PRO] aren’t magical new transfers, yet you can ask [COCO] [OTG] [TOG] and Badgers all about us at late night, I can guarantee that.

This also comes down to people being enticed by aggressive objective zerging compared to defending important upgraded areas. It’s pretty discouraging to spend a lot of money on something and then watch it fall to a very small group of enemies because you can’t get people together to hold it. I think all servers have WvW participators who don’t use blueprints enough, never upgrade anything, don’t use supply enough, get supply from the wrong places, always claim keeps without guild buffs up and don’t know how to think for themselves. All these things (including OP’s issue) will be resolved with time as more gold is accumulated and players realise how important it is to be working as a team. I know I can notice the changes already week by week.

Galantis.3267:

FA takes everything when when there’s no one to defend, jee where did i see that before hmmm oh yeah previous match against CD. Until numbers are equal on all maps 24/7 there is no “better” server. It ’s is whomever has most on 24/7 simple as that. Undefended forts really hard to take….

Lol, such a contradiction here. By that logic – Yak’s have more people on 24/7 and therefore take undefended territory more often if you referred to the scoreboard. Did you even think about this before you typed it? Or are you implying somehow that Yak’s is the only server this doesn’t occur on, every fight for territory you get is heavily defended and you simply manage to overcome the odds and beat everyone off the map whilst being outnumbered the entire time?

morrolan.9608:

Maniac.5163:

I want to know who these mythical transfers are. I keep hearing we have a new Japanese guild (What tag? JPN has been with us for weeks) and we have Europeans coming in the next fortnight or so.

Maybe its hard to see from your side but up until yesterday Aust. time at a certain time every single day from our POV at least 90% of FA players seemed to log off. This was confirmed by all the comments at the beginning of the thread about FA having almost nil presence other than at NA prime time. Now all of a sudden you have massive numbers at that time that you had previously dropped off. Why has that occurred? NA players staying up later on election day? Why weren’t they doing that on the weekend?

It really is hard to see from my side. Particularly because I play during that time slot and no new guilds have been on in any map and I also ask in all chats constantly to find out what guilds are staying up except random individuals and 3-4 old timer guilds in small groups. Provide me with a screenshot of a large guild contingent (people are saying 40, 70, and 200 member transfers now ??) at that time slot and I can be convinced. Now there’s rumor of transfers going around means we couldn’t possibly beat you without them and we recruited them just to fight Yak’s.

You guys have only mentioned guilds that have been here for a long time. Who are these new faceless warriors whom I owe so much to, yet aren’t visible during my playing hours when we turn the map green? A genuine question so I can find out who to thank for all their hard work when I thought it was just our server working hard.

You’re forgetting we had FA borderlands locked down before our PPT gain all started, which increased morale by a great amount. FA is notorious for having a sensitive morale if we hold no territory. If we do – a massive amount of PvE players will join the fight.

The fact that Yak’s is pretending we started recruiting for off peak purely for this match when all recruiting threads are dated a fortnight back is plain ignorant, just saying. We’ve been trying to recruit for that time slot since week long matches opened.

Cheers

I want to know who these mythical transfers are. I keep hearing we have a new Japanese guild (What tag? JPN has been with us for weeks) and we have Europeans coming in the next fortnight or so.

I haven’t seen a single new guild in WvW for FA. Just higher morale because we have a lot of strong fair weathers and lower Yak’s numbers.

Can someone from FA clear this up for me and give me an idea of how many numbers they are sending into WvW in my timezone? (Late oceanic and early morning NA) To me, right now – it looks like we have increased participation, while Yak’s have dropped sharply since the weekend. I know prime time NA is going to be intense.

Re; TOG – Maybe that was the case. We were watching the maps to see where you were moving and following you along from map to map. Maybe you were just going for whatever was easy to grab, maybe you were looking for us on maps that were already pretty much ghost towns. By the way, the only reason you lose stuff when you sleep is we stay up longer. We are 98% Australian and North American in [PRO]. Anyways, I like some friendly rivalry and respect you as opponents. See you out there.

Re; the “infamous” TOG – why did you keep map hopping whenever our " huge zerg" of 12 [PRO] members and a couple pugs showed up? After 4 of our sub-80 players on arrow carts fended off more than 15 of you at Garrison water gate, you hit north outer gate of the east keep. We were actually hoping you didn’t come to us when we were hitting that west keep – you had the number superiority and we only had literally 12 of us to take that keep. You just left the map instead.

We just cleaned up after you, you logged off, and we wiped your entire fortified borderlands with 2 alpha golems / 20 people.

Cheers

Just clarifying – The European contingent we may receive are currently just scouting the server with one individual and are voting on the transfer within their guild. We haven’t had any “massive population increasing” transfers this week at all other than a Japanese guild that I have yet to see in WvW. Through the daytime it was just the same bunch it has always been. Let’s not pretend you’re “more often that not” outmanned in EB, that’s just not true. We have equal peak forces, you carry more overnight unless we can secure a decent PPT as a small group on one map and attract PvE people to play. That’s what happened and will continue to happen.

Don’t be under the illusion FA has ever had a queue on any map in any matchup since the first hours of a matchup reset. Yes, this week isn’t over but in regards to the scoreboard it is an extremely unlikely uphill battle. We’re still going to be wreaking havoc where we can.

Cheers

Made a big push “overnight” during my timezone. Once we finished pushing Yak’s out of our borderlands, we moved to EB and pushed them all the way to their keep. I then moved back to FA BL with a 10 man team freeing up anyone else to do work in the other maps and we upgraded everything. Disappointed to see it lost during NA prime time. I don’t normally play during this time slot but I was able to see that FA prime time is not as strong as some FA would suggest and has a lot of room for improvement. I also think we need to utilise possession of SMC better to our advantage and learn the value of supply.

It is also a shame we still can’t get queues when we held a +415 PPT in WvW and we obviously need to work on our overall participation and server pride. I saw FA get outplayed today and I take my hat off to the Yaks guilds that hit us relentlessly, hard and fast in FA borderlands.

Shout out to PTX, EE and of course PRO who really brought on the pain when I needed them most while unfortunately some other leaders didn’t respond to our calls at all while we were breached at 2 fully upgraded keeps simultaneously. Shout out to all those crazy insomniacs from NA who stayed up with the small “night crew” to get us where we did you guys should be proud to get a +415 PPT. I need some sleep.

RE; The elementalist “build” video – that is Excala from GODS. Just FYI.

Ft Aspenwood rolling out strong now. Let’s keep it up.

^ This person knows how to research class mechanics. He must be a hacker too.

Lol – you really can’t figure out how to kill him?
That’s his video, btw.

Well, seems like the post was removed. Whatever..
If you guys think people are “hacking” from ANY server, record it and send to the exploit email Anet has provided. Keep it out of this thread and we will do the same.

Record it. I’ll put all my money down saying ULTD would never use a “hack” to demolish people in WvW.

https://www.youtube.com/user/UGMRZ

@Baazutai

I agree with most of what you said and especially regarding the opportunity to learn more from a loss than from an easy victory. We will be waiting to see if Yak’s Bend have any new tricks to show us, while working on recognizing and improving upon our own weaknesses.

Regarding EB keep – I was there the entire time with primarily just my guild defending and it was a war of attrition. Superior manpower & resources won the keep after we had exhausted all of our options.

See you on the battlefield.

Err, I can’t seem to edit my post but it was actually 4 alphas and 1 omega, not the other way around – my bad.

@Cygni

Did you seriously miss all the siege we had in there? First we stopped you guys cold through the water gate while your other zerg was hitting north outer gate. After taking down the first golem rush on outer gate, killing waves on the bridge with ballistas and carts when it eventually fell and destroying your siege on outer walls, we took down 4 omegas and an alpha siege golem on inner plus all the different ram sites. We thwarted at least 9 different trebuchet sites from both towers including storming Jerrifers successfully under heavy defense, and mortared every cata and ballista you put up in the courtyard.

It was a decent amount for being under attack for 4 hours with 0 supply. On the inside we had two catas behind door, mortars, 3 superior ballistas and 2 superior arrow carts on rear wall, 3 superior ballistas in lords room and 2 superior arrow carts, plus a few regular ballistas and carts here and there. We actually didn’t even have enough people to man one ballista in the middle left over. Even if we did have the manpower to man it all, it’s pretty hard to build more than that when the entire map is locked down and supply camps are guarded by groups of 10 or more. We also took Aldon’s and Jerrifers twice each in between waves of attack with a 4 man team and catas. I think we did okay, anyways. I’m always open to new ideas but really that stuff is just basic keep defense.. and we had it covered for hours against the odds, so I’m proud of us.

I carry all exotic lv 80 Longbow, Shortbow, Axe, Horn and Torch. I primary use Shortbow and Axe/Torch with traps. I generally only WvW in this game now, so Horn is just for swiftness and fury, while Longbow is just for the occasional Barrage on enemy siege up on walls.

Hell I would get rid of my pet forever without even thinking if it gave me a ranged kill shot or greatsword damage buff with more condition removal + stability.

A video would be much clearer, that being said in your last image it does appear that the gate is still closed with enemy players inside.

I think you mean Guardian though, can’t really see any warriors with greatswords. In the future, fraps a video – upload it and then send the link to the email ArenaNet provided for exploits.

Yeah, sheep mentality I guess. Follow the glory, haha. I know I have found my home and I ain’t leaving it. Hopefully ArenaNet will eventually promote their game more in Asia, it would only help in balancing and I know that is a huge amount of untapped potential market.

If I can only pick one..
Rendering issues.