Guild Wars 2

Come on guys, think positive.
Thieves might not be as strong as last year, but they are still a lot stronger than they will be next year!

It’s simple.

Step 1: You don’t

If they run air, you get killed by your own burst. Just embrace your role as the waterboy of the team.

Dawdler.8521:

What does world population has to do with FSP vs AM vs AR?
The chance for the matchup was literally 0.1%. We where never supposed to meet each other.

Arguing population in this case is like arguing that the precursor droprate is too high because you got one.

(also the german name for FSP look hilarious, I never knew that)

FSP vs AM vs AR is just an extreme example for the general problem of population differences. It might be less of an issue in gold tier because any server has a good coverage there, however, in silver league, uneven matchups appear more often. AM can steamroll several servers in our bracket and can be steamrolled by others. I doubt that there is any significant difference in player skill though.
The current matchup is just a crass (and hilarious) case of why matches tend to not be enjoyable for any side in wvw.

Dawdler.8521:

WvW is inherently unbalanced. In this particular case, so incredibly unbalanced its the eqvivalent of Manchester United meeting a group of 10 year olds in a football match. Sure, the 10 year olds might get some goals, but the match is going to be loopsided no matter how you look at it. Its a sad day when you miss facing SFR

The problem of these uneven match is not the difference in in skill though. To follow your metaphora, it’s like one team has only 3 players and has to decide whether it wants a keeper or a striker. I really hope Anet includes their new world population in match making somehow generate more enjoyable matchups.

One more for illustration:

Pride.1734:

Gotta admit that outfit looks pretty cool on your charr. Gotta dig that Indiana Jones look.

Also i feel ya. Hold out it will be over soon.

Thanks mate
I actually don’t mind the spawn camping. During weeks like this, you get lawnmower’ed by the blob anyway so I find fights at my doorsteps rather convenient. I simply don’t get why people throw sieges, especially since fights will be scarce for FSP as well. Why not enjoy the smallscale on a fair level?

Dawdler.8521:

You forgot to mention that FSP got a waypoint in your keep.

Also, you think you are the only one complaining about it? No one on FSP want this matchup. Due to the way glicko works, the only thing we can do now is not only win, but win overwhelmingly just to get a few measly points so we dont have to face whiners the next matchup.

Bro, why so aggressive? I was just trying to learn and provided visual tools for other players to point out the nuances of FSP’s superior skills. Also, at that point, the keep didn’t have a waypoint. Apparently, all sups were used for superior ACs.

Currently, our server Abaddon’s Mouth (rank 13) is pitted against Far Shiverpeaks (rank 4). Of course, our server stands no chance against their formidable play, intuition and discipline.
Of course, their never stopping march would eventually push the frontline near our spawn zone.
And although their roamers outnumbered us only slightly (cannot tell by what, too many Mass Invis, my mind got all foggy from their cunning), they wiped the floor with us every time we tried to break out. How do they do that?

Can we have something like this?

Shake it off
remove a condition on dodge (internal cooldown 5 seconds).
If you evade an attack, cooldown is reduced to 2 seconds.

Also, I realize it was a beta and staff animations have lower priority than working gameplay, but if the reused animations make it into HoT, I will send you a picture of me doing my sad face (which will break your dev hearts).

Meh, posted in the wrong thread, lets see wether I can make something constructive up.

I feel the condi clear needs only minor tweaks (as it is already better than teefs), but I really think there should be a way to disengage, even if less available than on other classes.

Last patch made the whole condi situation worse. I’m not even talking about balancing, I mean the “identity” of conditions. Before the infamous june23 patch, every condition had its unique mechanic (burn was high damage on low duration, bleeding was low damage but highly stackable, poison had low damage but healing reduction and so on). Now all conditions are the same lame DoT (with some being clearly better than others) and their uniqueness is barely noticable. It’s just stack any condition mindlessly as high as possible.
I was never a fan of conditions but at least in the past there was a system behind them that rewarded clever use. Now that aspect, that nuance of gameplay is sacrificed on the altar of simplicity as well…

Herald was so good I had to play it with one hand…

kolompi.1287:

You have no sustain? That’s a lot of garbage and you know it. Try to build differently then, run another amulet, different rune, whatever. But don’t cry about lack of sustain on a class that has been known for being able to either evade virtually everything or disengage at will if pressured.

I haven’t seen the thief subforum abuzz asking for balance while you were OP as kitten.

Wow…Do you also tell people who don’t get high numbers on thief pistol AA to get zerker gear to fix the problem?
Have you read the various complaints of the thief community that it is simply not possible to build a thief with sufficient sustain or are your eyes to tear-dimmed because dem OP teefs are killing you when you disengage another player with 25 % HP left?

apharma.3741:

My question is this: What would you be willing to give up to be better in 1v1 scenarios?

Mobility? Blinds? Reduced access to stealth? Eat a longer reveal debuff for more damage? Would you even be willing to swap initiative for cool downs?

1. CnD gets blind on hit, Black Powder looses its Smoke Field and instead stealths on projectile hit if over 450/600. No more free stealth except through utilities on high CDs, if thief stealthes, it was the fault of the enemy.
2. Backstab damage coefficient raised to 3-3.2. Current damage is pitiful for the setup compared to other classes
3. Old Feline Grace gets baseline (adjust returned stamina), Shadow Rejuvenation gets baseline
4. Infiltrator’s Arrow blinds at starting point, Z-axis teleports are taken out of game (for teleports of other classes as well)

“B..b…but Marauder, that would make teef so strong!” Yes, but it would only take it closer to what other classes can do.

Dahkeus.8243:

Thief is amazing in conquest, but only if you play to its strengths, which is generally very different from other classes. Thieves excel at decapping undefended points with their unparalleled mobility and +1ing even fights to quickly turn the tide.

If you try to 1 v 1 or just jump in team fights from the start, you’ll find PvP to be an uphill battle and it will likely be very frustrating.

“This half-dead octogenarian is amazing at professional football, guys! It’s just that you have to play to his strengths, like getting water bottles for the active teamplayers, collect dirty towels after the rest of the team showers etc. instead of actually letting him play the game. And every team has someone who does this kind of stuff, therefore, he must be the best player on the team!”

Aye, since Daredevil was such a huge letdown this BWE, I played Revenant more and really fell in love. I left my thief main about 3/4 of a year ago and wandered the other classes, they are simply so much more powerful that I cannot justify playing thief anymore (aside from occasional wvw, which consists mostly of +1ing as well). Back in the day, I was cool about all the missing mechanics in thief (invuls, boons, etc.) because it had damage (so it felt balanced – you can burst people but are paperthin). Nowadays, other classes kept their defensive mechanisms or even received buffs and are capable of damage surpassing a thiefs.
It really feels as if all other classes evolved while the thief is stuck in the past (which, due to the kittenload of nerfs, is before release…).

+1

Also, Mesmer is severely lacking in general currently. I propose making Mirror of Anguish and Confounding Suggestions baseline so I can squeaze in The Pledge more easily in my build (and make it reduce CDs by 5 secs per tick so I don’t have to kitten myself with other utilities for perma stealth).

I second almost everything on this thread. It is a beta though, and I hope the devs realize that there is a lot of work to be done…

Ithilwen.1529:

I like the heavy condition model far better than the Berserker insta kill one. It involves more strategy and thinking than just being the first to get the burst combo off.

It also tends to make a place for a kinda-healer/condi remover role.

No it does not. I agree, 1-shot builds are equally stupid but with the abundance of AoE-condis and passive procs etc. there is really no difference. Whoever turns the floor into bleeding crippling burning lava first wins.

bladie.5084:

So because whirling wrath does more damage, dagger storm should be buffed? This is what you’re implying, right?

Whirling wrath can be used twice on a ~20 s cooldown depending on the situation), Dagger Storm is an Elite on a 72 s cooldown that is basically a “come snuff me out” button. Only in comparison to the rest of the awful thief-elites, it looks ok-ish.

Love this build. It is so incredibly cheesy, you can even beat the cheese of mesmers and D/D eles.

Gabriell.4856:

But they also have to explode like after getting hit by the Fist of the North Star.

How about they instantl die after taking more than five steps then explode like the necro minion?

Ok, but to balance this quite powerful technique, an aftercast should be added. During this, the sound effect “My revenge is complete, old master!” plays while a picture of tybalt Leftpaw appears in the sky (depending on needed adjustments, the aftercast could be extended by a flute/shamisen tune).

Gabriell.4856:

Please rename it to “Five Finger Heart Exploding Technique”.

Also, allow it to crit.

That is all. Thanks.

+1.
Also, add the functionality that after being hit and walks more than five steps, the target instantly dies.

Zero Day.2594:

Or it could be 5,520 in 3 pulses…

It’s also stationary/roots in place while channeling…

Withdraw still seems better since it doesn’t root/channel, evades, cleanses condies, and has less of a CD.

That heal better be 5,520 per pulse and not 5,520 over 3 pulses….

I think it will be similar to ele’s ether renewal where you can move around while channeling. I also highly doubt it will heal 15-23K on a 20 s cooldown AND restore 75 % of endurance…

apharma.3741:

The reality is thief is still fine but you probably don’t want more than one as they have trouble sticking around in fights. Try to +1 fights going on to end them fast and move on, you are the burst on many teams and you have unparalleled mobility to quickly punish undefended points and plenty of options to adapt to many situations.

Best thing to do is if you figure someone is condi, specifically burn then avoid them and rotate around them.

Also not sure if you were saying condi necro was better…it really isn’t, bleeds took a huge nerf and it was their main damage source for conditions.

tl;dr: “Of course teef are fine for pvp, as long as you don’t intend to actually fight other players.”

Thieves are outshined by many classes in burst damage these days, moreso with the changes to burn and Mesmers getting they fully functioning shatter build baseline. Burst damage is nothing that thieves can add to the team, as they have to be so glassy to do noticable damage, that they pop up in downstate next to celeleles that turned the floor to lava and havent even noticed them until then.

bliss.4305:

Well this has got to be a joke. I mean…. you even…. what?? And the fact that you complain the class is broken but you want to nerf it further? Is this real life?

You know, instead of calling a nerf for the daze effect, you could by all means complain about “auto-defense” trigger skills that make some classes kittenedly OP?

No, I don’t complain about the auto-defenses of other classes. At this point, it is clear that Anet wants some classes to fight effectively without the need to look on the screen and others to be mobile lootbacks. I just ask for the privilege to be one-shotted by other players, instead of my own class mechanic.

or…

You are just totally immune to irony.

Nephrite.6954:

… So… We’re broken? Do you mean underpowered?

That as well, but it is clearly Anets will to leave teef that way. What I meant with broken is more Theon Greyjoy after Ramsay Snow treatment…

fluffdragon.1523:

Even the old standby of “Rogue” or “Brigand” or “Marauder” could work, albeit the latter doesn’t seem very … staff-wielding.

I propose “Marauder” to be reserved for a future specializaton that gives teefs the shield.
There should also be a new shield skin that includes the name of the specialization. Like “Shield of the Marauder”, or, i don’t know, “Marauder-Shield”.

No, Im not one of the very few unlucky souls that got rekt by a teef while afk’ing, I play teef myself (albeit rarely nowadays, considering that it is the court jester of classes now).
I like the reduced cooldown of SoH, however, with stuff like Mirror of Anguish and Tempest Defense, steal turns into an “I die even faster”-button. I assume that Anets intention is purely mercy, since it shortens a painfully asymmetric fight against d/d-Ele and Memsers and prevents us from developing a feint but false silver lining of hope when we don’t get insta-downed by these classes but I think we all learned to simply not fight by now.
Anet, it’s ok. We are already broken, there is no need to protect us. We adopted to our new role of ranger pets. We understand that our best elite, BV, is at best allowed to do nothing. Seriously, we don’t fight anymore, please let at least other people’s skills kill us, not our own.

Sincerely, a guy who tries teef again from time to time, sees how ridiculous the class is and hops back to D/D-Ele.

HaxTester.9816:

Where do they get human growth hormones? From dead human babies and fetuses (like stemcells harvesting) As a Charr I approve of this. They taste like chicken too.

Let’s stick some science into this
The Asura are a species more advanced than humans of the 21st century, so they will most likely also possess the technology to produce it recombinant in a host organism like yeast.
Also, human GH has a sequence identity of only ~67 % to the GH found in cats (which I assume to be as close of a relative to Charr as Bonobos are to us), the effects on injecting it to a mighty Charr warrior might range from ineffectiveness to death by allergic shock.

http://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/blast/Blast.cgi
(I have no idea what species would be the closest relative to Asura, but you guys can use whatever you think to test genetic similarity of Asura and Humans with that tool )

On topic: growth hormone is generally referred to as “GH” or Somatropin (with the origin in front, like bovine, human, etc.) so Anet should change the name in order to avoid a kitten storm on twitter for discriminating against charr/norn/asura…

sephiroth.4217:

Dear Anet,

Please nerf Scissors, rock is fine though.

Love, Paper.

D/D Ele is a nuke, though.
Anyone who defends the current state of D/D Ele is either oblivious or well aware of his lackluster skill that needs an OP class as a crutch.

Nocta.5274:

They have to play dirty to be worth something.

And by that, he means that you have to do the dirty work for other classes: finish fleeing players at 20 % HP, gank single players with a teef team of 3, provide swiftness for real classes with thrill of crime…

We are basically a playable skritt race.

Borious.9531:

I am not sure if it is just me but as a roamer I find it really hard, most of the time impossible, to prevail in 1v2 and 1v3 situations(especially if burning is one of the enemies main source of dmg). My opinion is that the root cause is the increased dmg output as a whole. If it is scaled down a little bit it would make the roaming funnier and more rewarding.
ArenaNet, please consider this “issue”. Thank You!

Are you, by chance, roaming on D/D-Ele or PU-Mesmer?

10/10, would pick pink moa for my massive char warrior.

I’d love staff. And to people who claim that super clicheed sniper gun fits the class theme while staff does not:

Thief =/= Assassin

Hammerguard.9834:

snip

People hate condi because of how easy they are applied, how abundant their source is (especially compared to the cleanses of most classes) and most importantly:

because they can do burst-like damage while the attacker kites, uses stealths or invuls.

If you use direct damage, there is always the possibility of getting hit while hitting.
You have to play with your eyes open, avoid the hard-hitting attacks, use blinds, etc. When you go defensive, damage you do will decrease, it is a trivial matter of fairness. Conditions in this game break that mechanism by allowing you to unload a condi bomb and disappear. Target cleansed? Doesn’t matter, just kite/use superior tankiness until the next bomb is of cooldown (which will be way before the powerful cleansing abilities).

The comparison to direct damage you make is not applicable. Direct damage is easier mitigated in this game than condi damage and while somebody engages to deal direct damage, you have the chance to retaliate.

Condi users try to defend the mechanic as being just the other side of the coin of damage. It is not. In a small scale scenario is not an alternative damage source, it’s strictly the better one. While I agree that certain classes demand a modicum of skill to properly unload the condis, going condi is always the safer, easier playstyle.

Doggie.3184:

Thief + Fix isn’t a valid equation :O

Indeed. Because it is a term.

Dawdler.8521:

When you stealth you go into an alternate dimension with no light and no air (that’s why they cant stay in there too long).

In other words its like space, so around -100 degrees celsius. Bring a scarf.

A little off topic, but since there is no air in space to conduct body warmth away, you will not cool down very fast. You basically become a sneaky thermos bottle in airless stealth dimension.

Just took a break from thief and went mesmer.
Moa’d a (bad) SA thief and he started flaming.
Dude,
1. we are hard counter to mesmers, don’t lose.
2. If you do lose, don’t flame
3. If you do flame, don’t block the other guy.

People like this give proud teefs a bad name…

I loved it. For one day, I was a plane…

I love the japanese culture but we already have more than enough shinigamis, sasukes and weeaboos in this game . I think to much of the “anime-esque” stuff waters down the lore of the game. I’d like to see a nice array of sabres/scimitars as one-handed swords (a weapon category that I always found a bit lacking personally) instead, especially with the exotic theme of HoT.

thief shortbow-AA on nearby ambient creatures is also great to find downed thieves.

I wonder how many rangers defending the pulsing stability are also demanding basilisk neom to hit through stab, invul, evade and blocks. After all, it’s an elite and should be strong.

glass cannon complains about being beaten by another glass cannon (arguably the worst, most easily shut down and most gimmicky).

rule 1 of the thieves guild: if you go burst, prepare to get bursted.

/thread

Zoltreez.6435:

imagen ALL of them as minion mancer…………

ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERG !!!!!!!!!!

30+ fleshgolem charging and knocking down the enemy team 60+ rat minion exploding in their faces 30 Worms shooting them + MARK SPAM !!!! + other minions…..

We used the worms on the walls to kill siege/players. worked really well. necro zerg OP, nerf pl0x.

Meh. Just ignore these guys. The only times I care for them is when they engaged with another player and I can help. Discouraging these people from harassing others with cheese builds is my type of grieving (and i’m not above /laugh-spamming in that case).

Release date? Non-water spears? but most importantly:
Why does Colin Johanson wear baggy pants? The guy is slim enough to look good in blue jeans.
Question, questions, questions…

HaviAir.1529:

I want arena styled PVP , no objectives just killing each other just like another game. This made the other game very popular on the side of PVP. Anyways GW2 is a great game just lacks PVP content, I want more pvp options and dueling and these 2v2/3v3 arenas can make it happen.

And the new mode shall be named:
PuPu Vs PuPu
Because all you will ever see there is 4 condi PU mesmers trying to kill each other with their illusions.

Moo.3408:

I think rifle will be VERY powerful, but initiative and casting time insanely decrease the effectivity( think double damage and time kill shot). But, who knows? Could bring in more traps.

I can already see you entering WvW, ready to pwn some noobs with dem stealthy 1337 sniper skillz BAM…
you just received 25K dmg from another sniper. You ded.
Well, another try, maybe sneak out of spawn area on another exit BAM… 25K dmg from somebody you didn’t see. It’s fun ey?
Can’t you see how much fun it is to get oneshot by someone without being able to react?

Whenever I see people wanting this kitten in MMOs, they forget that they are not alone in there. If you want unfair mechanics and advantages, stay in singleplayer games.

Samis.1750:

You do know that Entangle is used in condition builds, so it has nothing to do with Rapid Fire?

It’s not a fluff argument. It’s an elite skill that doesn’t work very well.

When someone argues “it’s a plant, it shouldn’t need a target” that is definitely part of a fluff argument.
And just because Entangle stacks bleeding doesn’t mean it isn’t a powerful Elite on power roamers as well (it actually works better than RaO for me).
It is a perfectly working, viable Elite skill that deserves the title “Elite” (contrary to many other skills), which doesn’t mean it should be impossible to counter by stealth or condi clear.

FrownyClown.8402:

you sound like a bad thief who has taken one too many arrows to the knee in wvw.

Nah bro. I switched to Pewpew Ranger myself. Keep wrecking thieves and other terribad rangers because it’s so powerful. Anybody who still complains about ranger needs to seriously check their pet/utilities/general skill

Tricare.2946:

It’s a plant coming out of the ground grabbing on to anything in the area. It shouldn’t require "sight’’ or a “target” to continue it’s effect on players.

Since we are using fluff as arguments for balancing: Rapidfire should track through stealth since the ranger couldn’t possibly know where the thief is. Also, longbow attacks should be restricted to like 20 before you have to buy new arrows at a vendor. Rangers shouldn’t be able to carry unlimited ammo.

Seriously, if you still have problems with thief after Ranger was promoted to god tier, no amount of buffing will help you anyway. Are you also complaining about daggerstorm reflecting?