Guild Wars 2

i’m amazed by the amount of people who try to defend obvious exploits as skill. especially since both examples can be easily used by macros.
whether it doubles your dps or “just” adds 30% doesn’t matter, it’s not working as intended and needs fixing. all the kiddies confusing it with “skill” or “technique” simply are not as good in this game as they imagine themself and need to practice more.

longbow AA crits for 4.5K on squishies, not counting signets and stuff. heartseeker still hits harder, but lb ranger can dish out obscene amounts of dmg. and contrary to what people say, it has many tools on lb itself that makes the build very survivable (ranger just tends to attract bad players i guess)

glock.6590:

“1- SA players are useless because they deal low damage and cant cap while in stealth”

“3- sitting in stealth forever should not be rewarding because its poor gameplay”

You refute your own argument here. As you said: SR severely lowers your dps and denies capping. It is not rewarding in any way. There’s no need to change it because it’s already bad in pvp

Melee Hits with sharp weapon cut bow strings, applying a 5 minute cooldown to all bow skills. Would give warriors an incentive to move away from hammer

Evalia.7103:

these calculations are only correct if you consider that the crit chance is 100%(you’re only comparing critical damage), which is most likely not the case.
It’s impossible to tell if we are unaware of the actual critical chance how much power is required to offset the DPS loss.

since s/he didn’t mention his crit chance and it’s about backstab I assumed Hidden Killer is traited.

Sandrox.9524:

T raw.4658:

Must post translations with non English chatter

kthx

Well,my dutch is not the best,tho i can tell he swear at the start(son of a …),and then complaining that he can only come with 10 ppl and that he is a bad player

He was one of the last fleeing members of an enemy zerg, full glass thief, shadow-stepping away from a couple of guys, so I took the opportunity to feel like a powerful class and bursted the little glass connon down. The following people enjoyed their free stacks.
Teef so OP, can down other teefs

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’m not sure how you came up with 280 power as the difference between 110% and 78% crit damage.

I believe you meant to post 820 and "280" is just a typo.

I used the average weapon damage here for convenience

pre-patch: (1000*2.4*2000)/2000 =1846 --> for crit *(150+110)/100 = 4800
post patch: (1000*2.4*2000)/2000 =1846 --> for crit *(150+78)/100 = 4208

Since power increases damage linearly for a constant armor I calculated the "damage gap" with 4800/4208 = 1,14.
If you apply this factor to power in the damage calculation you get 2000*1,14 = 2280 as the power value that you need to get to a 4800 Backstab again (small errors due to rounding, of course).

Have I missed something in there?

this would probably be removed if it was in english…

I think you’d need 280 more power against a 2600 amor target to get the same number for critical backstabs. Your DPS would increase a little because of slightly stronger non-crit attacks

No. Simply no. This would be only a good idea in a single player game. So you like to feel all stealthy and want to attack any player any time without that player being able to get ready? Do you understand the concept of MMORPG? Who would still have fun in this game if they could be insta-gibbed any time? If this would be ever included in the game, the (justified) outcry would just lead to more nerfs to thief’s core areas. Backstab would probably hit like a non-crit AA, etc.
Yes, thief is totally UP right now but the goal must be to make it viable again and not turn it into an uncounterable 1-shotter for the power creep kiddies.

Rapidfire is love.
Rapidfire is life.
I will continue to run power ranger. Every day. I keep wrecking better players than myself. They cannot run. They cannot fight. They will not be saved by ranger nerfs for another 5 months.
Rapidfire is love.
Rapidfire is life.

Carighan.6758:

Rapid Fire is just a typical high risk high reward skill. One reflect on someone even standing nearby, and that ranger is dead.

That’s simply utter BS. I had a lot of fun with RF lately and people constantly try to reflect it. One button (store weapon) or one dodge, if you already fired a couple of arrows and don’t want to eat them, is enough. You have to be afk to die by your own RF. I do think Op went overboard with his suggestions but do not try to fool people by claiming RF is high risk when it is obviously not. I never downed fleeing people so easily with backstabs.

Prysin.8542:

DD thief got some good setups VS ranger.

Just using Dark Blossom when rapid fire is incoming and you negate 3/4 of it. Or daggerstorm (sure, not really DD, but still).

For thieves, slotting Smoke Screen will be “somewhat” mandatory. However smoke screen completely shuts down LB, regardless of range. It also allow you to leap throuh it for stealth, thus you can with ONE utility and ONE HS, completely shut down a ranger.

Daggerstorm really works only against bad players. Otherwise, you give free seconds of cooldown away if casted from range (that cancelled rapidfire is usable at the end again), or you are blocked and eat a maul and tons of other melee dmg during the cast. Wasting all your initiative for a bad evade is also not very wise. Smokescreen is difficult to build in a d/d build as well.
There was only one d/d thief that got me during the last days, he shadowstepped on top of a roof and I was too busy rofl-ing about that. Ironically, I find the classic hammer warrior rather hard, a build that doesn’t give me any trouble on thief.

Solori.6025:

Where you one of the S/D thieves that stopped playing?

Nope. Played D/D since release. Loved and still do but it cannot compete with the myriad of cheese builds out there. So I switched to PewPew Overlord.

Rapidfire is Love.
Rapidfire is Life.

Zardul.3952:

to all those people moaning about rangers and Rapid fire.

its called KARMA !

weve been unpowered for 2 years. and now we beat you… you all CRY

i love it when you cry.

please cry more

The players that wiped the floor with you for 2 years now will not stay on their underpowered classes. I for one shelved my thief and switched to ranger, and I keep wrecking the same terribad ranger players as before. Nothing will change, you will just be beaten by your own class.

Ciucan.5092:

To the person who started this thread: you do not know or understand the most limited mechanics of this game.

As someone previously stated,all classes with proper build and weapon go for 2k damage on AA.

Cool, can i have a 1500 units dagger for my thief? I would forego the mini-cleave for that.

ItIsFinished.9462:

For those who are having L2P issue’s regarding the new rapid Fire changes…..See below:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Get in their face and make them swap weapons.

It’s really that easy…

Except I just melee’d a dire thief that I brought down to 30% HP in 3 seconds? Poor soul chose not to run and got stunned by GS and then mauled. I was positive to shelf my thief after sep patch and switch to guard but man, the new ranger is so ridiculously OP, it’s just too much fun to not play it.

I got my Ranger to Lvl 80 yesterday and killed an insane amount of d/x thieves (and other classes) with just longbow 4 + longbow 2. No quickening Zephyr etc. Simply press 4, press 2, maybe one or two AA with 4k damage and that’s it.
I will stay away from thief for a while (and most likely from GW2, since archeage launches) and consider my unkillable tetra guard my main (no litany of wrath for me, with that many PewPew flying around I need the block).

BurrTheKing.8571:

So something I have noticed with more difficult to land burst skills such as Skull Crack and Kill Shot, if you sheath, dodge, swap weapons, or in any way cancel the skill it does not go on the old CD. I’ve been landing Kill Shot by repeatedly canceling it until they are out of countermeasures then going for the kill (shot). It’s a godsend for Mace as well. Think you aren’t going to hit? Cancel and try again if a few seconds.

For players that have actually used intentional canceling in the past this won’t be a hard tactic to pick up. I’m seeing several interesting new play styles forming in my head already. I hope that this was an intended change and that it remains. It is something that good players will make use of while bad ones will simply continuously waste their adrenaline.

You could always do this, but now that Burst skills share the same CD after self-interrupts as other skills it’s much more practical.

Isn’t this really old? I use weapon stow on important skills all the time to prevent a miss.

I ,for one, welcome the new distraction meta

fellyn.5083:

If you want it to be fair let us interrupt the use of every classes core mechanic.

Give guardian virtues a cast time, same goes for eles switch elements, and necro death shroud. Oh yeah and engineers as well, with their potions, elixirs, and turrets. Thieves should lose stealth on a miss, etc etc etc.

Ok, but only if virtue cooldown is reduced to 10 seconds (or 7, if traited) and their effects are buffed to be at least similarly as powerful as burst skills.

It’s funny how the warrior-kiddies said you cannot compare different classes when people compared the damage potential of firegrab and eviscerate but now it seems to be ok.
I’d say ok, change stealth so that any use of stealth attacks causes revealed. but of course only stealth attacks then (remember, only the burst reduces adrenaline, so let’s keep things balanced, right?). throw in some nice traits that increase damage by 15% in stealth and make it that you automatically stealth after some hits in combat (again, like adren fills up) and i’m cool with it.

CobOfCorn.6352:

I only play thief. I have only ever played thief. Thief is the only class in this game that I truly enjoy. As my class gets nerfed time and time again, I begin to wonder if I should jump ship and play a different class, but every time I try, I ALWAYS come back to thief. Am I crazy? Are there any other people out there that only play thief? With the newest round of nerfs and buffs to useless traits, I’m thinking of finally switching over to my elementalist, whose been shelved for quite a while.

I think I will switch to my triple tetra med guard for good. I really enjoyed the class and seeing that thief has nothing but (now mediocre) damage and the ability to run away (which will get nerfed into oblivion as well), there is really nothing left to the rotten carcass of a class. I really expected Anet to fix the class and while I was sure that certain areas needed to be toned down, I thought the developers were skilled enough to balance it out with intelligent redesigns of other stuff.
But we get a minicleave that is useless for anything other than tanking trashmobs and 1.5 seconds of stab that no build can ever use effectively.
I can only recommend ohers to switch as well. See how powerful classes are meant to be in this game and give Anet what they want: let the thief class die peacefully.

Vague Memory.2817:

Bryzy.2719:

Vague Memory.2817:

Bryzy.2719:

@OP

I’m not sure thieves will get much sympathy on the profession balance forum. Certainly not from me, that’s for sure. I personally can’t wait to start mowing them down in WvW with the post-patch rapid fire. Their QQ tears will be like a fine wine on a mild summer’s evening.

I’ll have a drink with you. As a mes who doesn’t tend to run condition builds, thieves have no problem or QQ about how easily they can mow a mes down. We can’t really handle that high mobility combined, high burst, and stealth (i.e. no target to put clones up against). I will drink long and deep after this patch from the thieves tear well.

I trust you shall be putting that change to iLeap to good use against thieves, my friend.

-Clinks glass- cheers!

Everything at my disposal my friend. We will drink and eat well on that night

That’s it, I’m out. GW2 is turning into a pool of whiny little brats and Anet has apparently decided to cater to these people. If this is the road GW2 is taking, I’m hopping off here. This no game for me anymore.
Probably taking the turnoff to Archeage.

If I could chose what weapon Anet adds to thief it would be the nerf bat that keeps hitting us. Man, that thing is mighty.

BFMV.3198:

-A new weapon that really captures the core of our profession. One that bypasses downed state. If ya use this weaponset to drain all your opponents health they are killed without entering downed state.

lol no

NO! slaps Shockwave in the face We do not talk about making teef skills stronger or, god forbid, useful! You will take your mini-Cleave as a counter to all the newly introduced forced reveal and you will like it! Because that is the only buff we will see for a long time.
…making D/D viable, tss tss tss slams door.

It’s baffling how many people think this thread is meant seriously…

On topic: teef still OP, delete class pls

Jski.6180:

The best thing you can do in EotM is to get a skill group and chase out the zergs its so funny when it happens. Its also know as “clubbing seals.”

I noticed the increasing amounts of organized guild groups in EotM when I levelled an alt. People said they are there for training.
Guys, don’t do this. We constantly have guild zergs charging our publics only to realize that they cannot do kitten against anything other than a flock of bewildered 100 DPS upleveled (seriously, it is a bit pathetic to see guild zergs bleed white and try to run without being outnumbered).

fellyn.5083:

I propose that if this change goes through every other class in the game gets cast timers added to their class mechanics skills to use them so they can be interrupted or stopped in some manner. Otherwise they don’t have any drawbacks and can be spammed at will.

After all we want the game to be more strategic and have to force people to think about positioning.

Fair is fair.

Thieves’ stealth can be evaded and goes on cooldown without stolen skill, effects of virtues can be stripped/cleansed, toolbelt skills can be evaded/interrupted. There is counterplay to every class mechanic.
Warriors adrenaline is the icing on their already excessive stat cake. It takes only a couple of seconds to go into super-mode with enhanced crit chance, life regen or dmg boost, with every burst skill being only a short interruption.
Adrenaline was meant to be used tactically: do i want the 9K eviscerate/condi cleanse now or do I benefit more of the passive boosts? Not both at any time, as it is now.
I look forward to the change and will play my Warrior more if it really removes the high reward of braindead gameplay from the class.

TheLargeUnit.2793:

Ok, my question is this: will rangers be viable as counter periphery / gank squad after the next balance patch?

With reduced cast times and signet changes I feel as if rangers will be able to offer burst damage comparable to that of thieves (All the while staying at range). The signet changes are going to offer a very impressive invulnerability skill as well as a significant damage output (plus stability) utility. Another option that should not be overlooked is Sic Em. This skill is apparently receiving a buff to its reveal portion, which I believe could prove invaluable in targeting the enemy gank. 3k autoattacks are mean enough already, I would hate to think what a 1.5 second Rapid Fire (that tracks) could do to that squishy squishy thief over there.

I guess no one knows for sure just yet, but I feel that these may be just the changes we need in order to find ourselves a place in GvGs.

What are you talking about? Ranger buffs are the best that could happen to thieves. With that kind of insane, tracking ranged burst, QQ will finally leave the thief class and will shift to the ranger. I think it will be great but I will only take a step in wvw with loads of reflect.

RlyOsim.2497:

Just you guys wait until perplexity terrormancers get a reveal, I’ll need a keg to keep all those tears in!

On a more serious note, the thief class is for the most part fine to fight against. However, the small percentage of thief players running troll-builds has steadily grown over the past weeks and the outcry about it has increased accordingly. Surely it is obvious recently that the nerf hammer was swiftly on the way to the thief class: when the entire agency of a fight is dependent upon one person there is a problem.

I hope you guys don’t get hit too hard but adjustments need to be made and it seems, as a non-thief main, that providing classes with access to revealed seems like a suitable place to start.

And you know what will happen? More, if not all, thieves migrate to S/D. It’s ok, they don’t use super trolly OP stealth, right?

WRONG.

People will again call for nerfs and 1-button hardcounters against “OP evade spam, needs counterplay”.

Look at the forum, it has already started.

I loved that function in GW1. That would really be a nice addition to the game

Okaishi.8320:

I really wish they’d have taken a different approach to stealth counters though. Anyone who thinks 2000 range instant cast unavoidable hard counters promotes skillful counterplay is just joking himself. Doesn’t matter whether people actually end up slotting it or not, the idea is very poorly executed at its roots.

I would be cool about a cone (450 range) or something. You’d still need skill and anticipate the thief’s movement, so dishing out the subsequent burst feels more rewarding for the attacker and more deserved for the thief.

Helly.2597:

Its an addition of something people have wanted since the game’s release, stealth counterplay.

That’s the problem with so many people here: they think “counterplay” means pressing one button. Everybody just wants the game dumbed down to “press I-win-button”. Look at all the rangers drooling over the huge channeled ranged burst. People want the game to be easy, whether defending or attacking. Positioning/mobility as a stealth counter? Too hard.
Imagine all the QQ when Rangers eat their own 20K burst with daggerstorm or traited warrior blocks. We will see these people here again, demanding “counterplay to dem block spams” because once agin, their brainless playstyile doesn’t work and they think it should.
With all the forced revealed being probably only the tip of the iceberg, I doubt GW2 will have any meaningful tactics or need for skill next year.

With all the buffs to Engi and Ranger and especially the 1-button hard counters I am expecting some serious buffs for Thieves for the first time.

(Although I’m also expecting Rapid Fire to become unblockable soon, considering I downed a Ranger with Daggerstorm yesterday)

silentnight warrior.2714:

You dont have that problem with d/p.

Then the cooldown is 9 seconds.

Loosmaster.8263:

I challenge all of you to a full week of NO WvWvW on the upcoming reset night. Instead, go to EoTM and wreck the joint and get the rewards WvW deserves.

1: It only takes a 10-15 Level 80 organized group to destroy a farming instance. Hunt the OJ’s.

2: When the instance dies of inactivity, start searching for another one and taxi your group into it.

3: Rinse and Repeat.

For organizational purposes, your server ckittene your forums, meet up and discuss it on your Home BL or EB. If you truly do care for the current staleness of this game mode, kindly disregard and continue on. The WvW scores will show who doesn’t care.

P.S.- Please buy more Gems…

How about no? Eotm is WvW with training wheels and great for newbies to get used to the mechanics and alt-leveling. If anything, Anet should split Eotm in pvp-based instances and the leveling train instances (renaming the latter to “fluffy unicorn training land in the sky”)

Cam Ron.4170:

I love the EotM karma train. I main thief, and run around preying on the tail-ends of karma trains. The best is seeing them RAGE. I’d rather see salty text from the guy I just assassinated than see an exotic drop. I gain so much pleasure from kittening people off who take EotM for granted and think its free Karma….. Not when I’m around. I’ll kill your kitten before your train even realizes you’ve been attacked.

Basically, it insults my ego as a roaming thief that players, especially up-level, think they can run around getting free WXP without fear of me killing them. It’s more fun killing people that don’t expect/dont feel they deserve to die

As a main D/D roaming thief, I have to say: wow, great skill, you can beat upleveled newbies in eotm. Congratulation.
Guys like you are the only reason I set foot in eotm with a level 80 toon. It’s not even totally about stopping your grieving, it’s more about showing you how utterly terribad you are.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Hmmmm….

I would have to say:

1.) Initiative – EASILY the best and most powerful class mechanic as it bypasses the cooldowns every other class has on their skills. Since cooldown times are part of the overall balance of skills, this means there can NEVER be a true balance on skills that use initiative versus skills that do not.

Yes, thieves have no cooldown because our initiative, just as our stealth, is infinite.
In all seriousness, I find cooldown management much easier than handling Initiative. 2 or 3 skill at best per 10 second is not much, people just don’t see that cooldown classes classes dish out many more skills in the same time.

Serdoc.7261:

Just an idea, hoping to make Glacial Heart useful
Let me know what you think.

Change Glacial Heart to: whenever you apply burning to a foe with a Hammer equipped, you apply half the duration of that burning in chill.

NOW I don’t mean every time burning ticks, I mean whenever you apply it!

I think this could really open up a solid hammer build for Guardian in PvP, since the current version of Glacial Heart relies on critical hit chance. Also, the change I purposed would hopefully make Purging Flames something we actually see from time to time.

The trait has an internal cooldown of 30 seconds, it is obviously not intended to perma-chill an opponent (nor is that a good concept in general). Your change would make the trait (and Guardian as a whole) way too powerful with supreme justice/radiant fire and rune of ice/sigill of chilling.
Besides, he crit restriction can easily be circumvented by a sigill of intelligence.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

F1 – Shield Rush | 0.75 s activation | burst
“Charge forward with shield raised up, knocking down foes along your path.”
Knockdown: 1 s
Adrenaline Level:
1 Range: 550 | Target: 1 | Damage: 1.00 * Power * Weapon Strength / Armor
2 Range: 700 | Target: 2 | Damage: 1.50 * Power * Weapon Strength / Armor
3 Range: 900 | Target: 3 | Damage: 2.00 * Power * Weapon Strength / Armor
(animation: assault class in ghost recon phantom charging forward with a riot shield)

Notes:
Adrenaline level determines damage, maximum charge distance and number of foes knocked down before ending the charge.

So you propose to give the Warrior a mass knockdown gapcloser that can also be used to disegage with Heartseeker’s maximum damage coefficient on a 7 second cooldown? I know, Warrior players are a little out of touch with the game and its balance, but even you must see ridiculous OPness of this.

Please stop comparing across professions!
When the concept of a class is “being stronger than other classes”, you can’t just assume that is the concept for another class as well! It’s illogical to try and make all classes equally powerful and enjoyable.

sincerely, a warrior who doesn’t want to be associated with the rest of you peasants (a.k.a. “other classes”)

dancingmonkey.4902:

Speaking of lacking facts. Are you suggesting the facts her offered are inaccurate?

Are you suggesting that thieves cannot use their access to stealth, perma blind, tons of evade, heavy stun lock for survivability? He listed these as his facts

Are you suggesting they have zero access to boon or that they cannot steal and strip them? Because those are the facts I see stated.

Are you suggesting they cannot exploit their initiative mechanic for some massive burst damage, because that is the fact he listed to support the damage aspect.

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you claim someone who is using provable and commonly known facts, is making false claims?

Yes, I indeed say that his “facts” are inaccurate. While stealth is definitely used as a defensive mechanism (and hence the community’s cry for nerf is bullkitten), there is no such thing as “perma-blind” unless you stand in the black powder smoke field. Blind-using builds also lack any “evade-spamming”, which probably adresses the 1/2 second of Flanking Strike.
Now for stunlocking, that made me think we talk about Warriors because that is something the thief simply cannot do.
There is also only a single build that can boonstrip – and steals one stack. Boon access built in the class? Nope.

Do you mean “using” initiative by “exploiting” it? The highest burst a thief can do is Basilisk Venom, then precast CnD, steal and backstab and going full glass – which can be countered totally by a single dodge. Or invulnerability, block, stasis aura, mist form, blind…
After that you need like 3 autoattacks to
down him. It is a troll build that nobody uses because it works only on total newbies. As I said, if you go full zerker and invest only mildly in survival, a typical backsab will deal 7K damage – on a long setup. It will deal less damage than a walled Whirlwind Attack (which has 3/4 sec evade, such evade spam).

Well, that is my take on the thief, a class I played and battled since launch. If your expertise surpasses mine, please tell me about the permablind build and especially the stunlock build. No, tell it to the countless thieves I wrecked in the last week on my Triple Meditation Guard, they surely need it.

Dadnir.5038:

snip

You should maybe try to participate in this discussion constructively by presenting your opinion backed up with facts.
False claims of what the class can do and thinly veiled hatred toward it doesn’t really help.

I wrote this in other threads but yes, thieves lack anything worthwile in current GW2. Power Necro’s DS auto does more DPS, let alone Triple Meditation Guard (which I started to play just now, so I keep using her as an example ) and have way more tricks up their sleeves.
So while the thief was definitely too strong at launch, the QQ-driven nerfs made it severely underpowered now, leading to a migration of many players to other professions. However, this works like a natural selection for thieves, meaning with every nerf-bat fewer people were good enough to be competitive (or were willing to play a troll build) with the class. So while the population of thieves shrinked, the ones that stayed were better or trolled more. Hence, even today some D/D-thieves are so good that they can down a terrormancer, condibomb-engi etc., which again leads to more threads like “teef op, cannot beat the class on my OP condi build”, in turn leading to more nerfs and more people deserting the class.
Again, I wrote this in another thread, but have you noticed how the “Teef-hate meta” (I hope this term sticks) has shifted away from complaints about the class doing to much DPS and towards “teef to agile, can run away before I snuff him out”? That shows that the class has nothing much left except being a treasure goblin: a lootbag that is hard to catch.

TrOtskY.5927:

My take on backstab : It is a very strong move that does anywhere from 3.5K/7+K damage on tanks/full glass enemies, supposing crit, and supposing an “average” investment in power/precision/ferocity for your “average” wvw roame

Yeah…wow. My backstabs on thief do around 7K, (or 3 k on guards with protection up). They require perfect positioning and full power/ferocity investments and leave me with 14-15K health and have a realistic cooldown of 5-6 seconds. On the other hand, “Mighty Blow” on guardian hammer, a control weapon, does 3,5-7K damage on a 4 sec cooldown, and allows me to keep 2.7K armor and nearly 20K health. Backstab is severely underpowered when you compare it to the damage output of other classes on zerker.

Kain Francois.4328:

For the sake of comparison, a Brown Bear has 45k health at level 80. I don’t think 150k health is that high, especially if it is designed to suck up damage from an entire mob, or boss.

Furthermore, it stays up only only temporary, so its health is irrelevant. The fact it can be destroyed early is what balances out its dual purpose effects.

A Brown Bear cannot completely close chokes in wvw and sign a death warrant for any and all organized group. Zerg about to enter a keep? 2 clever necros can build a nicely fenced area of doom for them.

A thief using whirling blades is sitting ducks. You are free to use Endure Pain to completely negate it or eat the damage while you just snuff out his little fullzerker life.

bigmonto.4215:

If you really want to talk about stats here is my stats on my thief (with no food):

3k armor
1.8k health
1562 condi
Cleanse 2 conditions every 3 sec.
Go into stealth every 4 sec, and stay in there for 4 sec (perma stealth).

And the next piece of BS. Yes, condi bunkers are OP, we had this established. But here’s the deal: Warrs can also join the condi crowd. I’m also interested in how you go perma stealth with your p/d thief. With well timed tickling with CnD that does nothing?