Guild Wars 2

Kargath.6598:

Here is what i am thinking, we get about 500-1000 people to complain about other classes on hourly basis, and demand buffs maybe arena net will stop nerfing our class.

Umm, they did propose nerfs for all the other classes except ele I think. Sounds pretty fair to me. My guardian is actually losing more potential hps (30pvp-50wvw/pve) than my warrior AND an evade on top of that. HS nerf is practically nothing considering the active will get a buff. Pin down is still a very powerful attack, and still spells certain doom to some classes if it lands. Now it gives them better chance to avoid if played well. I doubt warrior will suffer much this patch.

Nerfing hydromancy would make my med guard sad. It is his only source of soft cc.

The majority of professions highest DPS weapons happen to be 1 handed. Some 2 handers may do more damage per strike or simply have more base attack stat wise. This does not mean that their skill or attack coefficients are more than 1 handers. Mace, torch and focus on a guardian provide some of the classes biggest hits, and sword pulls far ahead of great sword in DPS. If you blanket nerf attack on 2 handers they would fall behind due to mechanics, not stats.

Arganthium.5638:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Warrior axe and guardian sword out DPS their 2 handed counterparts. Guardians scepter is far ahead of 2 handed staff for damage. Haven’t checked other classes but not thinking this argument is holding water :/

Lol are you kidding? Axe is weak in that it’s predictable, so the overall DPS from the extremely fluid GS and hammer w. h its CC is at least as much if not more than axe’s. And scepter… No. Just no. Not even close. Maybe if you stand inside of Smite, but otherwise it’s not even near to staff, especially when you consider that staff is AoE.

Umm, yeah, that unpredictable great sword and the never telegraphed hammer. Scepter 1 vs 1 will wreck a staff. But yes, if you want to set up ideal situations for each two handed weapon where it outshines a 1 hander go ahead. But the point of this topic was simply to address damage, was it not? 1 handers are not lacking on these classes as far as I can tell. Maybe thief short bow vs everything else? Or ranger great sword vs longsword? Staff ele? Let one of them chime in.

Warrior axe and guardian sword out DPS their 2 handed counterparts. Guardians scepter is far ahead of 2 handed staff for damage. Haven’t checked other classes but not thinking this argument is holding water :/

Still a bigger potential hit to our hps than the hit to warrior healing signet. Not to mention lost mitigation.

Kits were balanced for 2 sigils. All weapons now get 2 sigils. Change kits to balance for no sigils? Confused.

You just said yourself that it changes nothing for pistol shield but buffs riffle. Its going to be the same for all classes.

So, no more op bunkering… Also there goes an lot of sustain for squishy offensive builds… Guess we can still give buffs to warriors so they can fight for us? Protect me guys! I’m the guardian!

If they lift the nerf from selfless daring in PvP, I’d be a bit better with the vigor nerf. But, unfortunately this will hurt offensive builds much harder as almost all of them use this as a means to make up for our squishy health pool.

Litany needs instant cast to be even close to our other heals. It’s biggest drawback is our lack of locking an enemy down long enough to reap any meaning damage/healing.

Healing breeze will still suffer the most from long channel (5 seconds!?) Combined with poor targeting.

Yay more direct damage nerfs! All hail the condi bunkers!

All those highly telegraphed skills, like healing signet…oh wait, snap!

So long what little offensive guard sustain

Balancing around an engi burst heal is probably as bad an idea as balancing around current HS. There is also a time/effort involved there. And no, not all blocks have a duration, there are plenty more than aegis that don’t. If you think 3 seconds of possible blocking duration every 10 seconds is balanced, along with the current duration blocks, I think you might want to think about that.

8k over 20 seconds is a lot of healing. Add in dogged march and adrenal health and you can get over 12k health every 20 seconds. Then there are banners or healing shouts, but at leat those require significant investment. The proposal here is to provide active mitigation while reducing passive recovery. This of course requires more skilful play to pull off to its full potential and raises the skill cap but we are not talking about gutting the passive anyway. 1 block per adrenaline bar on a very short cooldown that works regardless of equipment and works with cleansing ire should be plenty. Ad half duration stances on half duration cool downs and I think you have a very fun and active class. More room for risk/reward.

Jeez redcobra, way to go man. Troll in up the forums, pffft…

I think duration blocks are pretty well covered by stances. I would love to see stance durations halved, along with half the cool down.

Signet of resolve is no longer 2 conditions with perfect inscriptions, it was reduced to 1 per 8 seconds.

I worry that if blocking gains adrenaline you would see a lot of simplistic defend, burst, defend rotations. Maybe that wouldn’t be so bad though, but I would rather some traits effect blocking more. Like, gain vigor on block or remove a condition on block.

If healing signet doesn’t change much it really can’t be made too strong. If it gets reverted back to 200 a second then it could be toned up to 1 block per adrenaline bar. As it is I’m basically introducing the equivalent of an aegis every 10 seconds. But perhaps you would prefer permanent immortality?

F2- attempt to block the next attack, consumes adrenaline. 0 adrenaline, 0% blocked. 1 bar, 33% damage blocked. 2 bars, 66% damage blocked. 3 bars 100% blocked. 10 second cool down.

Now its part of class mechanic. Sacrifice burst for blocking.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Mightymealworm.8409:

I imagine a normalized crit damage (lets say flat 200% damage) with elimination of the stat altogether like they did with magic find. This would even out the number of offensive stats (power, precision, condi) with defensive stats (healing, vitality, toughness). This would be interesting in a PvP scenario, but it would hamper pve quite a bit. Especially dungeon speed runs.

Anyway, that’s my prediction. Not sure what else they could do with it.

What would happen to the trait trees with Crit damage?
what would happen to all the gear with crit damage?

I dont see the stat being removed, its easy to remove Magic Find because it was basically a useless stat that have ZERO affect on a players build what so ever, Now remove Crit damage which is on Traits, traitlines, Gear, Food, Accessories, Weapons…Now that will be a very tough thing to balance out and we all know how well Anet “balances” things…

True that it is on trait lines, but that is about the only place you wouldn’t find the old magic find stat. Gear would just reroll like they did last time, food too. Traits could be plus damage mod % (reduced by half?). Who knows, its just a thought.

I imagine a normalized crit damage (lets say flat 200% damage) with elimination of the stat altogether like they did with magic find. This would even out the number of offensive stats (power, precision, condi) with defensive stats (healing, vitality, toughness). This would be interesting in a PvP scenario, but it would hamper pve quite a bit. Especially dungeon speed runs.

Anyway, that’s my prediction. Not sure what else they could do with it.

Atherakhia.4086:

No other heal in the game works this way so using this approach only for Warriors is silly. It has already been shown that Healing Signet alone isn’t that much more powerful than other heals in the game. Dropping the HPS by only 50 puts it in line with other powerful heals. Does anyone here legitimately think a 50HPS drop will scratch the surface of what’s going on right now with Warriors? Because if not, I’d argue perhaps the problem isn’t Healing Signet at all at that point.

Dropping healing signet by 50 a second is still 7000 health every 20 seconds. What other healing skills is that in line with?

Decently balanced in a defensive role yes: Good survivability, excellent support, low damage, very low mobility.

Not balanced in an offensive role: Good damage, low survivability, low support, low mobility.

Meditation guardians can be pretty good at making up some mobility and survivabilty, but still suffer too many deficiencies to make them viable offensive roles or roamers.

Condi guardian is non existent. I have spent the past 2 month in search of the strongest condi guardian build and think I have found the best I’m goung to be able to get out of this class. And it is still terrible.

Well, I can say you could remove all the guardian traits on the list and most of us wouldn’t feel a thing. Zealots speed is a decent little damage boost at times but it is not very predictable. I have used inner fire and purity but, there are better traits out there.

I would argue that shattered aegis should not be on the list because you have to activate an aegis before an attack hits you, and this just adds some retaliatory damage to the attacker. Terrible trait, especially after the last ‘buff’ but all the same…

Phaeton.9582:

sorrow.2364:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Maybe we should just increase the heal amount of active to 8000, so you don’t lose any of your healing potential over the 20 second cool down. I think it is balanced because you would heal that much anyway, therefore 8000 healing on a 20 second cool down is balanced. And it would make signet mastery a buff. The active would also be weak to poison, just like the passive so u can counter it.

Besides warrior has no other sustain, we can’t dodge, block, blind, have protection, weakness, kite, disengage, teleport, have no ranged weapons, have no immunities, have no other skills that heal and all our skills have a cool down.

We need this, we are in a bad way.

Is this guy serious?

It would need to be substantially more tbf, although 8 would be overkill

No no no. I don’t think even 8k would be enough to make you want to activate it because it will heal that much anyway, and you could be interrupted or poisoned! This forces you to use signet mastery for it to be a buff and not all builds use that so it is only a small buff if even that. John wanted to IMPROVE the active so we would use it.

I think because poison AND burst is such a big counter to warrior that the active should convert poison into protection before it heals. And it should be instant cast. This would make you want to use it, and warrior would still be able to be burst down when on cool down. I think this is only way to make it worth activating the HS, otherwise what is the point?

Oh and Guardian Signet has 8k on 40 second cool down but not good comparison because warrior has AT LEAST 8k more health pool to have to fill up! Gaurdian signet passives cures lots of conditions and can ever cure condition on use and guardian can even cure conditions with lots of other skills when heal is on cool down! Go complain about guardian. Ele signet heals them 200 every time they cast a spell and they have less health pool to heal too!

You guys should not laugh at warriors being in bad place right now, you just want nerfs so warrior will be free kill again! LTP, you are all to lazy to change your build and tactics to counter warrior, you just need to spec burst bring poison and not fight 1 on one. Warrior is very weak when focused on by multiple people and will probably die!

John also said that without strong heals warrior is too much like all EVERYONE ELSE. Warrior should have the strong heals because it makes them stronger and is good for their play style, and that it still needs some buffs and tweaks!

No bomb nade node spamming engi? But they just leave their explosive poo everywhere

Maybe we should just increase the heal amount of active to 8000, so you don’t lose any of your healing potential over the 20 second cool down. I think it is balanced because you would heal that much anyway, therefore 8000 healing on a 20 second cool down is balanced. And it would make signet mastery a buff. The active would also be weak to poison, just like the passive so u can counter it.

Besides warrior has no other sustain, we can’t dodge, block, blind, have protection, weakness, kite, disengage, teleport, have no ranged weapons, have no immunities, have no other skills that heal and all our skills have a cool down.

We need this, we are in a bad way.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Aza.2105:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

It does nice damage in PvP too, Meditation build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj53ltNJ_FE

Man, that is hot join. Anything works there. Dps guard does not do very well in soloq or teamq. Guardian has a lot of problems: Lack of mobility, lack of stability with meditation build, no way to disengage, no snares and their damage is highly telegraphed.

In short, guardian has a extremely hard time sticking to targets to deal damage. The low hp doesn’t help either. In comparison to dps warrior they are very far behind.

But guardians role in spvp is not to roam, but to hold points. Having only a few viable roles per profession in Spvp is intended and a fundamental part of it’s design.

Where is this role limitation stated as part of the game design? Why then even have the ability to pick traits/stats/skills/equipment that does not fit your ‘intended’ role?

Yup, close range with low mobility and virtually no soft cc= a lot of your build is making up for your deficiencies and therefor has less room go very heavy into offence. This is part of the problem that forces guards into bunker to be competitive. This, and all our good traits are in defensive trees. Our offensive trees are pure garbage (meditations are on a hybrid tree).

Ahlen.7591:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Ahlen.7591:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Guardian condi bunker? Now that’s funny right there.

Guardian was literally the ORIGINAL BUNKER in the first few months after release, their con damage is lower than the other conbunkers, but their bunkering is still insanely powerful.

Doesn’t that make them a good bunker but NOT a good condi bunker?

Ahlen.7591:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Guardian condi bunker? Now that’s funny right there.

Make CC skills interrupt an attack on defiant enemies.

I down invisible theives all day long with both warrior and guardian. Just wait still for a second when they go invis and when they think its safe to backstab, spam aoe.

Tada!

Sorry but, a warrior fights his enemies, swings at away at them, until they die. An assassin kills them before they have a chance to fight back.

You swing a metal pole at someone a few times they may die or they may wind up in the hospital. You jump out of a bush and jam a wooden stick through someones eye and into their brain, its game over.

There you go…role play…use some imagination.

Arlette.9684:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Serdoc.7261:

cymerdown.4103:

My suggestion, from my balance document:

Decrease Passive by 1k/20s base, but increase Healing Power scaling: 342 (0.08), down from 392 (0.05)
Increase Active by 1k/20s untraited, slight increase in Healing Power scaling: 4275 (0.6), up from 3275 (0.5)

The goal is to nerf the heal for DPS builds, while keeping it about the same for bunker builds. Also, make the active good enough so that it makes more sense to activate when getting low on health.

There ya go Jon, a solution that meets your criteria.

My only possible addition; to make the active more attractive, reduce the cast time to 1 second.

Increase healing amount and recharge time on active to a good amount and it becomes both more useful and a greater trade off. 9.5k (1.0) on 40 seconds?

Guardian’s (arguably the healer guy) Healing Signet heals for a base of 8300 on a 40 secs cooldown while having a rather underwhelming passive compared to HS passive obviously shows that your suggestion is way off than what the buff/nerf can get up to.

Signet of resolve also has a coefficient of 1.25. I had also suggested reducing healing signet passive to 300 with a slightly higher regen coefficient along with the active change, just didn’t make it into that particular post. Honestly how can you complain about that kind of change, at least it makes it more likely for the warrior to use the active, giving a chance at counter play. And let’s face it, a warriors healing skill is probably going to be stronger than a guardians simply because thats where the devs want to place most of their sustain. If the numbers don’t work they can tweek them.

(And don’t think I don’t want to see some buffs to some guardians skills/traits either, cause I love my guard)

Serdoc.7261:

cymerdown.4103:

My suggestion, from my balance document:

Decrease Passive by 1k/20s base, but increase Healing Power scaling: 342 (0.08), down from 392 (0.05)
Increase Active by 1k/20s untraited, slight increase in Healing Power scaling: 4275 (0.6), up from 3275 (0.5)

The goal is to nerf the heal for DPS builds, while keeping it about the same for bunker builds. Also, make the active good enough so that it makes more sense to activate when getting low on health.

There ya go Jon, a solution that meets your criteria.

My only possible addition; to make the active more attractive, reduce the cast time to 1 second.

Increase healing amount and recharge time on active to a good amount and it becomes both more useful and a greater trade off. 9.5k (1.0) on 40 seconds?

It is very very simple really. Decreace passive base, increase healing power coefficient. Decrease active recharge time, increace active amount and coefficient. The numbers can be worked out by the balance team, as they will be anyway.

Here is why you do the above:

Passive: healing power currently has little use on a warrior. This rewards a diversification of stats, and somwhat reduces sustain of builds who choose not to spec for it while rewarding those who do. Simple concept.

Active: the low cool down on this skill clashes with its passive nature. It ensures that the amount healed on use cannot be very strong, but a skill that already regenerates small amounts of health over time does not need a longer delayed active that takes up the same role. A long recharge can be justified because of traits and the addition of a passive effect. It also opens up the possibility for a large healing amount. This presents the warrior with a strategic decision as far as use as well.

Guardian shield 4 please? That one made no sense when it happened and makes no sense now. Oh, and ‘save yourselves’ too.

Cool down needs to increace with a big increase to amount healed. Then you can reduce to passive. And give it better scaling with healing power. 300 sec passive, 9k base active on a 40 sec cool down (32 with traits). As long as the cool down is so short the active will always have to be garbage.

Baels.3469:

Useless traits?

All of Zeal.

Fiery Wrath says hello! Very strong trait, especially for an adept trait. Zealots Speed is pretty good (even if it SHOULD be a symbol of speed, not wrath). Zealots blade would be more interesting in a different tree. Scepter power is alright if you’re into that sort of thing. Binding Jeopardy would be a decent enough trait if it did not compete with Fiery Wrath. That is all unfortunately. There is very very little reason to go beyond 10 in Zeal.

On a side note, I played with a condi guardian build for a while now and I have to say, Kindled Zeal is incredibly inferior to 25 points in radiance if condition damage is what you are looking for. It is insulting really.

Burnfall.9573:

Quakeman.9378:

I feel the same, and this is exactly why I now refuse to play warrior. I just don’t find it fun that I don’t have to try to face-stomp everyone else; I get nothing out of it. I also feel that this accurately sums up what’ wrong w/ the warrior: it does everything too well. They heal like they’re guardians, they deal damage like they’re thieves, and they have high mobility to to it off with.

I agree with everything you said but except with 1; “they deal damage like they’re thieves”

I will say again and again, Warriors should be Master of Damage, not thief. Warriors were heavy set armor.. resulting in more damage.

Thief in the other hand, should be Master of Mobility and Evasion; nothing more, nothing else.

Only in Guild Wars 2 where you will find these two classes being freely given God Mode status mechanics and having Full Unlimited Domination among the remaining classes and the game.

Why?

I leave that up to you to decide.

So…thief should be master of running away, avoiding combat? I suppose they could be useful as node farmers but… this IS a game about fighting, is it not?

And heavy armor effects your damage how? I suppose the wight could cause you to swing slower, but I believe that would have a detrimental effect on your momentum, decreasing the force of your blow.

Agaist multiple targets: Hammer #2 withowt a doubt is the most readily reliable one I can think of. Whirling wrath is good but when used against multiple targets it tends to trail behind. Mace 3 is nice too, especially if you drop a symbol first. If youre timing is good a focus 5, litany of wrath, stand your ground, ji, mace 3, smite condition, swap with hydro sigil, hammer 2 and then just swing off the last couple seconds with auto attack can’t be beat. Of course, that is complete overkill on healing as you would also have heal on med traits and that’s 3 meds lol.

Single target? Sword auto or sword 3 if target is stationary, Whirling wrath, torch 4, scepter with smite. Those would probably all be OK but would still let you down. It is not a skill optimized for 1 vs 1.

Not a bad idea really, there are some needs from long ago that seem strange now.

The biggest problem with HS active IS the low cool down. I know it sounds wrong but having such a short cooldown prevents the active from having much effect for balance. 250-300 passive that scales much better with healing power and a 9.5k active on a 40 second cool down (32 with traits) is still a strong and simple healing skill.

Healing surge is currently to risky with variable amounts healed, I would make it always heal for the stage 2 amount and give it boons at stages 1-3. Stage 1- 5 seconds vigor, stage2- 5 seconds vigor and regen, stage 3- 5 seconds vigor, regen and protection.

Mending should be the group support heal skill. Remove up to 3 conditions on yourself and 4 allies in an area of 250, each condition removed grants 1 second of regeneration to yourself and those effected.

Defiant stance is too situational, increase base heal amount to 4.5k and reduce duration to 2 seconds.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/960-class-balance-philosophies/

The above is a link to the discussion you were referencing.

Cynz.9437:

mrauls.6519:

Cynz.9437:

mrauls.6519:

Wow!! I couldn’t agree with the OP more. I’ve literally been like, “I’m just not going to connect”, and even told people after duels I wish I could hit them! I’ve used superior sigil of hydromancy, but I can’t cover conditions, I’m not in range sometimes, and other times it’s evaded.

Give us easy access soft cc (cripple/chill)!

because there is not enough conditions flying around already…

Guardians aren’t really contributing to the conditions flying around

guardians have no burns mkay

Have we progressed to complaining about condition spamming Guardians in the meta now? Is it time to fear my condi guardian build yet?? Please???

I would personally argue that stability is often more powerful than protection, but that is my own opinion. Both are top shelf when it comes to defensive boons.

It is important to note that protection is almost always (on most classes) up for short periods of time, and if skills are blown to stack the duration it becomes very vulnerable to boon removal. When protection IS up, the benefit is a reduction of physical damage by 33%. Assuming static health (no healing) for the duration of an encounter, this is effectively equivalent to a 33% larger health pool if the boon is kept up for the entire duration of an encounter and if none of the damage sustained is from conditions or retaliation. As 100% up time is often unrealistic in an actual encounter, protection can have either a relatively strong or completely negligible effect in a given encounter depending on when it is activated.

The true strength of a well timed protection is the magnifying effect it has on healing. In contrast, a larger health pool is always ‘active’. It is easy to assume there is a diminished effect of healing on a larger health pool, but I believe that is because we see our pool as a % of full or empty most of the time. 5k health left on a maximum pool of 11k hp looks far more impressive than 5k health left in a 25k pool, even though they offer the same obstacle to an attacker to overcome.

There is also weakness, a condition that causes your attacker to inflect an average of 25% less damage to you, and stacks well with protection. While a warrior has no native access to protection, they do have some access to weakness. Warriors are also no completely left out when presented with options to gain vigor, blind, block, and can be quite strong at mitigating conditions. Hard cc skills also award a loss of damage to your opponent much like a block or dodge, so those cannot be discounted either. I would rather see the class be able to take more advantage of these mechanics than the current more passive nature of its sustain.

Healing signet, like all other signets that immediately come to mind, should never have a stronger passive effect than active effect. The biggest problem I think with the original number was simply how low the active was when paired with a low passive. I think the wrong end of the skill was buffed. 250 passive regen with say, a 9.5k heal on a 40 second base (32 second with traits) cool down would have been more in line with most healing skills. Currently the low healing active on a low cool down cannot keep up with burst enough compared to the passive to make it useful in any situation except a last ditch effort before imminent death.

Mending has too much competition from cleansing ire in its current form to be very attractive. I agree it needs some new direction.

Healing surge is ‘good’, but I think the health variables keep it from being ‘great’. Stage 0 and stage one are too weak and too great a punishment for what is supposed to be a burst fighters best heal. A constant stage 2 healing effect with the variable being stronger defensive boons granted per adrenaline level might be more interesting.

Defiant stance suffers from the same problem all the new healing skills suffer from (excluding mesmer, that one actually works out pretty good). They are far too strong on the situational side and far too weak on the consistent side. Those are fine and wonderful mechanics for utility skills, but horrible on the one skill that is most depended upon for survival. Defiant Stance should have a base heal of 6.5k and reduce damage taken in all forms by 50% for 3 seconds.

Edit: I almost forgot to add that very few fights take place in a vacuum. While some classes depend on easier access to boons to make up for lower base stats, boons can be and are often shared with others. Higher base stats are not. For example if a Guardian is powerful with his boons up and a Warrior is powerful without the need for boons, how much MORE powerful is a Warrior when boons are shared so easily. I believe this is where a lot (not all) of the God-like perception of the class comes from.

Most of those skills had retaliation uptime of 5-10 seconds, but were cut back as retaliation was a bit too strong in the old post release bunker meta. Duration was cut first (along with protection uptime in PvP) then damage took a hit later. I think retaliation damage nerf was more related to wvw, as it was one of the only aspects of the game where wvw and pve were different. I think in that time we were given a consolation buff to some of our vulnerability skills to help make up the damage loss. But that is pretty much the history of the current guardian retaliation situation.