Guild Wars 2

Draz.8620:

Do you mind posting the build you where using for this?

Zikk.4652:

I think its this build: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqLt4dD93pU&list=PLsfTAd-qhsRxTk0WuXFF1I7qteSilnjcf&index=11

Yes… that one, will even add an annotation to the video once i get back.

Ascii.9726:

Andele.1306:

Ascii.9726:

Your Lich vs Dagger 1 test was invalid, you used Well of Suffering & Reapers Touch on the Dagger spamming but not on the Lich spamming.

A 10%-15% difference doesnt really matter since in a team scenario they will both be upgraded by 25%. Lich is still the strongest attack in game (just by base damage to power scale), but one can come close to the numbers with other means.

15 attacks with an average of 46k per hit, he if had done a fair test he would of dealt an additional 103k damage which would of been 12/13 attacks and therefore 12.5 to 13.5 seconds (5 to 6 seconds more then the dagger.)

What i was trying to illustrate is that if you have to stay range… you have to stay range, therefor there will be no close up well of suffering and reaper’s touch. There will be just max range DPS spam, when you can get close… you do get close and run wild.

While i do agree that Lich Form 1 spam is higher DPS especially if you have vulnerability on the target from other sources, and you get to pierce multiples… but at the same time it only lasts 20 seconds. Dagger 1 spam can be done… for ever…

I wasn’t trying to make a contest between dagger 1 and Lich Form, but rather to illustrate how both of them shine. I said in the video… know HOW to burst in each situation.

edit: i also didn’t get a special team, and didn’t do everything perfectly – always get maxed buffs, always be in the right spot, always this and that… those are perfect scenarios that don’t happen to often.
I wanted to illustrate the power of less then perfect / casual play…

Can i still submit mine ?… it’s nothing special since i wasn’t preparing / getting people help me achieve my maximum potential with coordinated buffs, but… you guys can still witness my power if you like

Hello everyone…

Do you guys want to witness my power (build) ?

This is a short video with some highlights of the glass cannon power build. Some time ago someone asked for something like this, and since after this new patch (February 2013), ghastly claws spell got buffed a bit i thought i would join the trend and… exemplify…

I did not, however, prepare too much for this event. When i did my big hit you can see that i only had 6 stacks of might on me, and no additional buffs. You can actually go much higher… but for that you need proper coordination, 4 support-buff players and… for the stars to align, if you know what i mean.

I hope this video will not make people think that power necromancers are too strong now, merely that they are a viable option…

RussellmaniaKW.7360:

Nemesis.8593:

Oh man… your dreams will quickly get crushed as you reach higher levels. The thing with necromancer is that at high levels of play, you require more skill to counter a good thief, then a good thief needs to counter a good necromancer.

Hmm, i’ll rephrase that… good thief vs good necromancer – thief wins. You need great necromancer vs good thief to win. The necromancer class is harder to play in SPvP, because in many cases they are not the initiators, therefor you have to counter…

The initiation window is much larger, at times it’s totally up to you when you want to initiate. But the counter window sometimes is under half a second, miss it and you go byebye.

I disagree with the fact that Necros are not initiators. I think it depends a lot on the build. I’ve seen in your tutorials that you use Dagger and Axe in sPvP, and in that case it can be hard to initiate due to lack of range, but I use staff in PvP and the range on that makes it easy to attack people before they even see you coming. I use spectral grasp too which has the same range as staff and is good for singling out enemies or yanking them into a fight they didn’t even know was happening. The marks on staff also give thieves a lot of trouble. Best counter for thieves is to hit them with all the AOE that you can since that will still hit them when stealthed and then use DS to soak up their nukes.

Can you compare the staff initiation to a high burst glass cannon thief played perfectly ? All they have to do is spam the correct rotation on you, and they can put out 18K damage in under 2 seconds without the possibility of retaliation in that time… If you survive the 18k in under 2 seconds then you can continue fighting… to win after something like that, an initiation like that… requires way more skill then what the thief that learned his rotation is using.

To be honest thiefs are not that much of a problem… bunker elementalists and OP healing – BM build from rangers… those are simply insulting if you go conditionmancer on them.

Oh man… your dreams will quickly get crushed as you reach higher levels. The thing with necromancer is that at high levels of play, you require more skill to counter a good thief, then a good thief needs to counter a good necromancer.

Hmm, i’ll rephrase that… good thief vs good necromancer – thief wins. You need great necromancer vs good thief to win. The necromancer class is harder to play in SPvP, because in many cases they are not the initiators, therefor you have to counter…

The initiation window is much larger, at times it’s totally up to you when you want to initiate. But the counter window sometimes is under half a second, miss it and you go byebye.

Bas.7406:

Nemesis, as always you are ahead of the curve. Check your pm’s mate! I have never heard of Sheobix, but I will have to check him out.

Well he has this one build which got very very very popular. Didn’t even notice that… until i got onto his blog. The idea of his build i liked, and i wanted to give him props for that… but i’ve made my own version of a tanky necromancer.

Lunatic.9314:

Absolutely awesome!

Yeah… for a tank it really is…

This build is one of the most expensive and demanding builds, in terms of gear, that i have ever done… therefor i added quick and cheap alternatives to some of the items required to make it happen. Without further ado…. here it is

Guild Wars 2 – The Abomination [necromancer tank-build tutorial – Sheobix inspired]

Like the title of the video suggests, this build has been inspired by Sheobix’s juggermancer build. More then a month ago i’ve received word that… someone… was highlighting some of my builds on his blog, so… since i am a curious individual i went to check that someone out. Turns out it was a player named Sheobix, which i have also seen on the forums, and on my topics quite a few times…
To make a long story short, one of his builds caught my interest, so i’ve made a variation of my own of that build.

I also want to take this opportunity to acknowledge Sheobix’s contribution to the necromancer community…. cheers

This video goes through everything… from the mindset required for tanking right down to each items, weapons, utilities, traits… all of these explained in detail with the reasoning behind each decision.

Last but not least… we take this build on a field test against something… frosty…

FINAL STATS:

Over 3514 Attack (over if best in slot items are provided)
“???” Condition damage – irrelevant
15% Condition duration
0% Critical Strike Chance
0% Critical Strike Damage
Over 2770 Armor (over if best in slot items are provided)
Over ~ 30,992 Health (over if best in slot items are provided)
—
+ the ability to heal ~ 30000 HP over 25 seconds of combat
+ the ability to repeat this great HP recovery every 25 seconds of combat
+ the ability to support in fights
+ the ability to stay in a plague form which heals every second, has stability… high toughness and 50000 HP

If i missed anything or if you have any questions feel free to comment here, on in the comment section on youtube.

Since you are a conditionmancer i understand you are using scepter + dagger and a staff for your off set. When facing a structure you can switch to staff and spam 1 + have a golem as your utility. The golem charge does immense structural damage plus it’s autoattack, alongside your staff 1 spam it should do the job.

Xynn.2748:

“[b]There is a reason my dueling videos are not out yet. Ever since my youtube channel got up from the ground, I’ve noticed a shift in a lot of people’s attitude towards me. "

There will always be haters. If you don’t put out videos, they will just find some other thing to aggravate you. There are a lot of people that like your videos though, and we appreciate your content. It’s a lot easier to trash a video than to make and comment one.

I’m… lacking people to do SPvP at the moment. Went through 5 guilds in the past 5 days, in search for a PvP team. Can’t go in solo, not team… no games, no games… no videos…

Wayfarer.2051:

Yes, It’s another one of those Threads.
But please remove Deathshroud!
It locks us out of our Utilities, it stops us from using anything in synergy, it is primarely only for Power-Builds, it has poor synergy with all other builds, it is tedious to go into DS and then try to make the most out of it and most importantly: it is the ONLY static Class mechanic.

I’d even be happy with a 3-ability, weapon based Death Shroud tht further intesifies the gameplay styles of the Necro Weapons.

General “Dream-Mechanic” thread I guess.
I am still in favour of 4 F-Skills that consume Lifeforce: Empowered Attack, Flash/Fear, Shield and generic Minion that can later be Shaped into a specialist with Minion Skills

Only for power builds you say…

Ruufio.1496:

Regardless… he lived long enough for me to secure another kill, and to get him back up again. I was saving my golem for securing another kill. I kind of disagree here, if i were to use my golem there… not sure if i wouldn’t have needed it before the end again…

Hmmm… actually it died before the end, so you were right… but i couldn’t have know that. It’s like… if i knew the thief was invisible there i wouldn’t have gone there… but you don’t, you don’t have spectator mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CCjUiXmu1OU#t=566s
This is a pretty simple one – never fight near the edge like that. You didn’t “Anger the guardian to make him waste a cooldown.” You made an amateur mistake. You need to practice not fighting near the edge.

Well… what i thought was: I need to go down and help… where is my team, if i go down now the guardian gets this buff…. i can’t kill the guardian in reasonable time cause he will just heal and run away. So i fight on the ledge until he pushes me, i either kill him… or bring him low enough… i don’t jump so it’s my mistake, i let him decide when he had enough.

I had to be down at the buff regardless… if he wouldn’t have pushed me, i would have jumped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CCjUiXmu1OU#t=662s
After you were interrupted all you needed to do was Shroud-Stomp him.

I think i would have gotten interrupted again by the guardian… also was low on HP and low on DS

But since you were interrupted and assuming the Guardian then proceeded to interrupt you anyway.

Yeah…

You had 3 options here which would have secured the stomp on the Engineer. I probably would have done all 3 of these things in order because it’s something I’ve become accustomed to doing.

1. Fear the Guardian using Doom.
Guard had Aegis + wanted to keep the Fear for when he goes for the buff again, you saw i went in DS at one point and i aim for him… but 1 second too late… he got the buff

2. Switch to staff and use Mark of Fear to fear him again. Casting Chillblains would help to keep him away as well.

True… although… experience… frustration…

3. Plague stomp the Engineer.

Didn’t play with plague…

Then you could have ran away from the Guardian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CCjUiXmu1OU#t=733s
You should have used golem’s Charge which may have launched the Warrior into the hole because of how far apart they were from each other.

I didn’t want to put the warrior into the hole, as you saw on the map there was someone from our team at the gate, i didn’t want to push an enemy into that direction… I wanted to kill an enemy.

So as you can see, you have some places to improve on. Those were relatively simple mistakes that you need to practice on. Reviving a downed ally is always the most important thing in combat, everything else comes second. (Mostly) Anyway, I enjoy watching your videos so keep them comming.

Yeah… lots of ways to improve, thanks for your contribution…

Now there is one more thing i want to address. The don’t get angry at your team part… You know many people like me for not only my skill but my patience, the fact that i answer everyone (almost) on youtube, my kindness. Well… my team did some stuff…

[b]Not only in the second game we used “different” tactics, because they refuse to listen… i am also with 3 players down at the buff, since none of them (except one) came at buff… even though i’ve told them so many times, each time you see the buff, drop everything and jump down… They never listen, yet i am always in the wrong…[b]

So i have 3 players down with me, that means there are 4 of my allies on the map vs 2 opponents and i hear on mumble “i am down at mine” and i think… “you have got to be kidding me…”

[b]There is a reason my dueling videos are not out yet. Ever since my youtube channel got up from the ground, i’ve noticed a shift in a lot of people’s attitude towards me. Increasingly more hostile, so after all the hate mail i got (not from people on youtube or forums, but from people from my own guild…) and said nothing, for all the times they didn’t listen and we lost, for all the times players that never played a necromancer… argued with me on how to play a necromancer… yeah… i think i was being way too calm in fact.

Does not matter now… they kind of started avoiding me since after that game. I said i am done, since i needed a break. Never played a game again, although i offered to join… -awkward silence-.

Ruufio.1496:

Okay, so I need to say something. Nemesis, you are always making posts everywhere about builds and such and how to play the Necromancer and in return a lot of players say how great you are.

Well, I have to say that you have a ways to go to improve. I’ve watched a lot of your videos because I like seeing everyone’s point of view on the Necromancer. This recent PvP video you uploaded is the perfect video for me to point out where you need to improve.

• Pay attention to what’s going on around you.
• Pay attention to your cooldowns including the ones you can’t see.
• STOP doing a combo rotation. Use skills when you need them, not on a rotation.
• Don’t get flustered during combat and get angry at your teammates.

Good sound advice for all PvP matches in any game, and i agree… and i am also trying to do it. You think i am not ?

This isn’t me bashing you saying how superior I am. This also isn’t me analyzing a video in which people would claim I wouldn’t know what to do in certain situations myself, because I would have known what to do in these certain situations. So this is me giving you some friendly advice so that you can learn and improve in PvP. There were a few parts I was almost yelling at my screen hoping you would do something but you didn’t.

I know you are not bashing my post thinking you are superior, it’s the way you’ve formulated your response. But you are missing a point… even though correct in a few cases, when you are in the heat of the battle you don’t take everything into consideration… not yet anyway… you need a few months of practice. I made this build a few weeks ago, didn’t get to practice it much because of… certain circumstances…

While i was editing it i actually saw my flaws. You can learn so much by watching your replays… for any of you who have played Starcraft II competitively… you know that every game you lose must be instantly replayed to learn your mistakes, otherwise you won’t get passed diamond league… so yeah… let’s see now…

Here are some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CCjUiXmu1OU#t=317s
You weren’t out of ways to save your teammate. You had a Mark of Fear left on your staff which you didn’t attempt to use on him. Instead, you used every mark on cooldown instead of simply casting the Mark of Fear.

I actually noticed that… i didn’t time my Fear right, i thought i didn’t have it… and by the time i switched and used 2… i already saw the stomp animation finishing and i go like… awww kitten, missed that one… mind as well continue the combo for more damage, while it’s free… Will get better with practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CCjUiXmu1OU#t=454s
You had golem’s Charge ability up which you could have tried using to interrupt the stomp instead of wasting 2 wells.

I used the double well to save my guardian friend from going down… i suspected he would get focused instead of me, since he was down once already, he was also low on HP. He did get picked on, but not focused… if they were to focus him though they would do almost no damage… the fact that i placed two wells and he didn’t get focused as the wells were there… just goes to show what i always say… you may find yourself facing a skilled opponent.

Azlidax.9753:

Here come the Monday morning quarterbacks. It is so easy to sit back with some popcorn and break down every move in the heat of combat and tell someone to learn to play. I do not think the point of his video was to try to prove that he is the king of all necros like some of you think you are.

Thank you Nemesis for proving the naysayers wrong and that condition specs do work in TPvP.

I agree with you, that is exactly what i wanted to prove… We all have seen the dozen of posts saying how necromancers are not viable in SPvP, how conditionmancer for PvP are a joke. They are viable… and not bad actually…

The only thing this build can’t do is kill a good bunker elementalist and of course the ranger’s QQ build… god that build…

I also agree with you that it’s really easy to sit back and observe the mistakes… it’s like watching a movie, or even when you look back at your own decisions… you think “oh man… if only i would have done it like this…”. But you wouldn’t have, since now you know… but when you are there in the moment you don’t know.

Now… even though what i just said is true, doesn’t mean you can’t improve… and Rufio does have some valid points. Don’t think he was trying to troll me, i can spot trolls easily enough, his intentions good so i will address his post with an easy hand.

Draegan.1472:

What build are you using?

Guild Wars 2 – Fear… is my weapon [2 x TPvP conditionmancer builds + 1 HOUR of TPvP footage]

This one…

manveruppd.7601:

Not bad! Didn’t think it would work in spvp since yhou can’t get the full +100% duration with no food buffs, but seems it sort of does. Did you change any of the traits and gear or are you using your wvw setup?

It really shows off the Terror change to best effect. You were right in that old video you made that necromancers had no useful burst and asked for Fear to be changed. It’s a shame that they chose to do it using a trait though, it means you have to structure your whole build around it and precludes the use of many other useful traits in that slot.

In GW1, their balance policy was “when everyone is using the same build, then it’s too powerful”. I never liked how they nerfed things to the ground rather than toning them down incrementally or making alternative builds stronger, but I agreed with the sentiment. I worry that if people cotton on to how useful it is to have some kind of bursting capability Terror will become the new Ether Prodigy and we’ll see some kind of drastic nerf to it.

I still think Reaper’s Protection has a ridiculously long cooldown though, considering how many CCs you get in pvp. Very useful when it works. Maybe they should split it.

Yeah it sort of does, i also have two conditionmancer variations for SPvP. In this video i used the one i use in WvW just for the hell of it. Well the gear is different obviously since you can’t get PvE stats in SPvP… i use the rabbid amulet…

Yeah… maybe it was my old video, maybe AN had this in mind all along, regardless… it finally payed off. There’s one small thing the necromancer is underpowered at… and i honestly have no idea how to fix that without making the necromancer OP.

Also about Reaper’s Protection… yeah… a 1 min CD would do it nicely. AN must not give it a shorter CD so you become un-CC-able in a fight. Sometimes the same player wants to CC you more then once, exactly like you want to do to him… so if he can’t do that… at all… then it’s OP. But sometimes you kill a player after he CCs you, and a new player shows up… and you are kind of… unprepared.

A 60 sec CD should be fine, since we are kind of the only class who doesn’t have a proper stability.

Hello everyone,

Yesterday i said in one of these threads that i will release a tournament play ahead of time, also uncut and with as few edits as possible. I had a few tournaments that i planned to mash up into one single necromancer experience… but… that is for another time.

So here it is… hope you find it both entertaining and motivating…

Guild Wars 2 – Epic conditionmancer paid tournament (TPvP with commentary)

As always feel free to leave any comments here on in the comment section on youtube, also tell me if you guys want to see more of this kind of “PoV” necromancer tournaments, in which i explain the reasons behind each of my decisions as i battle my opponents.

My almost rendered video will be up on youtube in a few hours. You will see what a necromancer can do in a paid tournament. You will see we are not exactly underpowered…

SPESHAL.9106:

abelooi.9156:

I noted how Speshal just dropped out of this thread after Nemesis rebutted him. Have to say, kudos to you Nemesis for the work and effort put in. Definitely an eye-opener and let us understand the different ways to play a necro.

Cheers!

I dropped out because Nemesis actually rebutted nothing…well…maybe I understated the damage he does with fear by 600.

Other than that…he just made excuses for his gameplay in an EDITED video (imagine the stuff we didn’t see).

He also made claims about being undefeated in duels yet none of these duels mysteriously made it into the video that supposedly showcases this build (how many more weeks and editing is needed before we see that?)

He also constantly deflected criticism of his build by asking about mine…it’s a primitive technique for arguing and laughable too….I told him exactly what specials abilities I use, what elite i use, that I have ground targeting wells, and 18 seconds of protection…yet he needs me to spell out my build??? Wow.

He claims I don’t understand the necro class…yet he uses a condition build without BiP…thankfully some other guy in this thread presented an alternative condition/fear build in this thread that is more sane.

BTW…I realize some of his videos may help some people, but it’s amazing how people become such fanboy sheep…my best argument is just to watch Nemesis’s own video again OBJECTIVELY…there is absolutely nothing to see…except how to ignore your special abilities, ignore your elite and press buttons 1, 2, 5.

Some people want to critique me as not being as “helpful” to the community as Nemesis…well…for the record…I used to have 6 UN-EDITED videos back near beta/release…as well as stream…but this isn’t a kitten contest…I haven’t critiqued any other Nemesis posts or video…I just felt obligated to point out some serious problems in this one for those that are new and see his video thinking it is awesome gameplay/build.

- cut

Add me in game and let’s duel mate…

I was not deflecting criticisms as much as i was saying that… what you are saying can’t be real. It’s quite common for people to inflate what can actually happen and be vague about it too… like “i can pop lich form, kill 2 of you guys instantly”, remember you said that ?… Maybe you can actually do that, some people aren’t good… quite bad actually in WvW, and yeah you can 1v2 people just with Lich Form. But what do you do when you meet a spartan and not peasants… How many tournaments have you done ?…

You know… i wanted to “edit” some more footage out of a tournament, but i’ll post all of it just to prove a point.
Truth be told the footage i got was bad… there was so much running around, testing grounds… 2 big armies keep poking at each other without anyone engaging… if i were to leave all of it in it would be so bad, so i edited it.

There is another WvW power build on this forum. The guy was using a staff + plague form and all utilities condition related… on his POWER BUILD… he said he got 1000 kills in a day, then edited a movie in which he was for the first few minutes always in plague form, and was tagging people…
Since it had a nice music, and you could see how fast he tags… people thought that video was so “cool”, much better then mine…

People don’t want the harsh truths, they don’t want to see that even in the worst cases you can still survive… people would much rather see someone 1v5 some noobs and then brag about it. I’ve seen it so many times, yet i will never do this. What i do is for people that actually understand that you are here… and in front of you there is an enemy that may be your equal. The mere fact you said you can pop lich form and kill 2 of my guys in a team fight says everything to me…

I also offer to duel you at any given time from now on for the next… few weeks until i forget. Prove your worth, fill your words with action or they remain empty.

It’s always easier to see the flaws in anything, then to offer a better alternative… also every build in this game has strengths and weaknesses, otherwise it would be OP, the trick is to maximize it’s strengths and minimize it’s weaknesses… but it will still have weaknesses… otherwise it would soon be nerfed, and then it would have weaknesses…
OTHERWISE… everyone will play the build and class with no weaknesses…

You must see the bigger picture… also until that time comes, i am waiting for you in game… duel me…

PS: tournament footage coming in a few hours…

also… still waiting for your build, i’m not going to fall for playing the guessing game on so few information, so that you can divert the attention from your build with “Oh… he doesn’t even know what build i run, he doesn’t know the class…”. You said you have a better build, ok… bring it forth and make a stand…

Ragion.2831:

nice build, the 9k hit floored me but your skill and trait choices are a bit off if you dont mind me saying. This power build will have issues in places like Citadel of Flame explorable because of the lack of Aoe control.

The build i use is able to very easily survive the the mass of mobs while trying to defend Maggs while dealing alot of dmg in CoF path 2, so much better than i dreamt possible. In fact it seems more of a tank canon build than anything.

Also the damage is about the same as what you posted except the 9k crit with axe since there is no need to stack vulnerability using a power build in pve. Actually trying to stack vulnerability with axe is part of what reduces your personal dps. I use an axe but not rlly for vulns except against a veteran mob.

I will make a video and post soon

Waiting to see it mate… curious now.

Lunatic.9314:

Nemesis.8593:

Took me a while do get all the gear for this build… but i’ve done it. I also want to thank you guys for your continuous support and appreciation. Without further ado…. here it is

Guild Wars 2 – The definition of glass cannon (necromancer bursting tutorial)

This video includes building up the glass cannon necromancer burster – weapons, stats, items, skills, utilities, traits and the most important part of them all… “Defining your auto-attack”… i think you guys will be in for a surprise.

As always… all of these explained in detail with the reasoning behind each decision.

FINAL STATS:

3355 Power
~ 54-58% Critical Chance
~ 110-120% Critical Damage
1836 Armor (+ protection on ~ 40% of the time)
~ 19372 Health
————
+ the ability to maintain 15-25 stacks of vulnerability on the target
+ more % damage increases (explained in the video)
+ massive auto-attack damage “???”, you’ll see…

If i missed anything or if you have any questions feel free to comment here, on in the comment section on youtube.

Enjoy

I have the Berserker’s Acolyte set and would like to know what runes i should use for the glass cannon spec?

I use Ruby Orbs.

I’ve taken into consideration what people have stated about my WvW video, i was asked to get to the point faster… and so i did. I have compiled two variations of the conditionmancer build in under 30 minutes, it is less detailed then what i normally do and therefor this is for players that have at least a bit of experience with the necromancer class (people that do TPvP).

Those 30 minutes are followed by 1 hour of TPvP footage that shows this build’s potential, not to the extent that i would like since i was focusing on leading my group at the same time… but it shows that you can still own people even if you only focus half your attention on fighting…

Guild Wars 2 – Fear… is my weapon [2 x TPvP conditionmancer builds + 1 HOUR of TPvP footage]

This video demonstrated that you can hold your own in 1v1, you can survive being zerged, you can put the nail in the coffin in team fights… at one point myself and 2 others fight a skilled bunker guardian, and since we lost i wasn’t doing much to him… but then i decided i will kill him before the match ends, and so i ensured his death…

DUELS coming soon…

In the coming week(s) i will go into more detail on how to… use this build in various cases, such as how to… vs guardian, warrior, thief, ranger…
I will scheduled duels – best of 3 with an average of 20 individuals of each class, all above my current PvP level. If i win i will explain why and how… if i lose i will explain why and what to not do… It will be a very beneficial experience not only for myself but for you guys as well…

If i missed anything or if you have any questions feel free to comment here, on in the comment section on youtube.

Pendragon.8735:

Nemesis.8593:

instead of DS 1, how about you scout the field of battle while you re-position yourself / run. You don’t have to go all spartan on your enemies, you can make a small tactical retreat to heal up and come back stronger then before…

Necromancer is poor at running away, I don’t ever use DS1 because everything else is on cooldown, but rather when you are being focus fired and your health is low. Unforunately, Necro gets focus fired a lot because opponents know we don’t have strong mobility or escapes. That is also why the extra 2K health I talked about is so valuable. It can help you not have to dive into DS quite so early or so long.

Then again I like to mix it up in small encounters too, even soloing camps and such where I might run into 1v1s. If you are a Necro that just hangs around in a zerg or in sieges, where we are indeed good as conditionmancers, can probably get by with less survivability.

I don’t mean like actual running, i mean like when thieves go in stealth to buy enough time to get off CD while re-positioning themselves in a favorable spot. You could do the same… favorable spot = a mark of yours that was evaded the first time. The enemy must decide… does he move in for the kill and trigger the mark or does he wait and let you recover… tick tack tick… tack…

Rennoko.5731:

Nemesis.8593:

MeanMug.2630:

Nemesis,

Please save your time/energy for this amazing and constructive discussion. I don’t want to discount SPECHL’s opinion, but THIS discussion is about your Fear build and we are all clear that he disagrees with it as a viable build. No need to continue to address his doubts/concerns.

So, as I see it, the ONLY difference in your build and Rennoko’s is Soul Reaping (10) and Rune selection. Is that right? I am building toward a Fear build and don’t want to overlook any subtle differences.

Thanks again for your contributions!

The difference between my build and Rennoko’s as far as i see in traits it’s only the fact that i use fear on down instead of Path of Midnight…

He uses different runes… i aim for longer fear he aims for longer bleeding duration…

Rennoko’s utilities replace my well of darkness and corrupt boon with blood is power and spectral walk/signet of the locust.

In conclusion his build has the potential of being more mobile and apply higher stacks of bleeding in time… but lacks the longer fear duration + the fear on stability and the extra anti-zerging that a well of power brings to the table.

You guys can decide…

Just to note, my fear lasts the same length as yours. The max duration is 100%, and I hit that. The extra in your fear is a wasted stat.

In a less mobile situation the darkeness well is a good substitute for a movement skill, I completely agree on that. Its is the best well for a condition build defensively. Corruption boon over blood is power is a situational choice. My other guild necros mostly prefer the boon flip/epi trick on guardians in big fights, but I have gotten so used to dropping BIP immediately in fights I have a hard time missing the extra damage and the super long bleeds if they land on the fool who doesn’t run a condition clear (I am looking at you zerker mesmers).

I would use Blood is Power too if i had an extra utility slot… i just don’t like to put BiP on someone know that it may get dispelled and then… my big bleed is gone. If they dispel regular bleeds fine by me… i just reapply right away. So… what can i put instead of BiP, how about something that will make me put the nail in the coffin…

That’s what i thought…

Rennoko.5731:

Nemesis.8593:

Rennoko.5731:

blc.7963:

Rennoko.5731:

Runes are as follows:

2xAfflicted
2xKrait
2xMad King

Are the extra 10% condition duration worth not going 3xAfflicted + 3xKrait (110 condition damage)?
All in all, if you really feel the need for those 10%, you can always go to Givers weapons.

Absolutely it is worth it. If you need the extra 10%.. plus it helps all the other conditions too.

And if you start talking about the giver’s stuff, it takes your primary stat away which is 90 condition damage or 180 condition damage plus alternate stats I do not like. Just taking a giver’s weapon would cancel out the bonus condition damage you added in. (they are terrible btw, stat distribution wise).

Giver weapons offer 10% bleeding duration which is more or less the equivalent of 100-150 condition damage at 1000 condition damage, since it increases all your bleeding damage by 10% as in… 10% longer bleeds that give the 10% extra damage in that time. The thing is when you reach around 1800 condition damage 10% added to that it’s quite good… when you are under 1000 condition damage, adding 10% more damage instead of 100 condition damage will be a waste.

Always better to have 11$ then to have 9$ + 10% of 9$… but it’s better to have 17$ + 10% of that instead of 18$. That’s how i see it.

Mathematically you are correct in your example, but the cost of Giver’s weapons is too high. Compared to equivalent gains from runes/traits/food it is far and away the worst place to try and get duration, because it comes at the inherant cost of losing 90-180 condition damage. Not to mention the loss of preferred secondary stats.

The total gain from undead runes in a structured build is 275 or so. We can blow that set apart and replace it to get 40-45% duration to all bleeds, and only lose 240 condition damage. That is a big hit, but replacing weapons with Giver’s equivalent loses 90 or 180 condition damage, and adds only 10% duration.

You are almost always better off avoiding these.

And that is why i use the giver’s weapons only in PvE

Derk.3189:

Nemesis.8593:

Derk.3189:

Nemesis.8593:

…answering SPESHAL

…The one that has a 90 second CD is what i call an opener, i put 4-5 bleeding stacks on the target… the target stuns me… big mistake, you just signed your own death… 4 second fear = 5200 damage just from the fear + the same from ~ 10 bleeding stacks = 10400 damage, if he breaks it with stability… “hahaha… you fool…” corrupt boon extra fear + 2 more sure fears (1 from DS 1 from staff)… 90% of the targets die from that…
The two that require you to be down, makes the necromancer downstate as viable as thief or mesmer downstate, prevents stomping as well as providing a lot of damage… more damage then the mesmer’s abilities that’s for sure…

Ok, regardless of what beef you have going on with speshal, I can’t agree with any of this. Reaper’s Protection as an opening I get but:

Stability does not break stuns. In fact, there are only 3 utility skills that break stuns AND grants stability. Stand Your Ground, Armor of Earth, and Mantra of Concentration. MoC is even less relevant to your argument because stability only lasts 2 seconds (which means if you have the slightest bit of lag, or was in the middle of activating another skill, your window to corrupt boon will be gone), and MoC can be used twice.

I’m not saying Corrupting stability is bad per se, but this whole argument of ‘chain fearing’ someone who broke out of fear via stability is faulty; in actuality this will only work against guardians and eles; but mostly, scrubs who think stability breaks out of fear.

Secondly, in WvW, downed2 is terrible. Stomps are dangerous to do, and much often than not, people will dps down a downed player rather than stomp. Fearing 1 target will probably just ruins someone’s chance of getting loot from your soon to be dead body.

Fear of death is also terrible because if you do manage to down a player, the fear would likely have made them run away further than your downed state attack range. They’ll have lost all their conditions which doesn’t mean well for you either.

Corrupt boon can be used not only against stability but also against any and all boons, and while not many stun breakers apply stability, there are many situations in which players apply stability on themselves alongside other boons (depends on the class)…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

Think about all the elite skills that apply stability… Necromancer Lich Form… power necromancer going all “I WILL KILL YOU ALL”… “no you are not… fear… now go away”…
Battle Standard, Rampage, Rampage As One, Dagger Storm, Tornado, Plague, Elixir X, Mortar, Avatar of Melandru… their strongest skills are turned against them… it is so… beautiful…

So a player will damage you instead of finishing you off, but since you double fear you he will move outside of range… how are these two situations true at the same time ?…

Thats exactly what I said. You said stability breaks boons. It does not. That scenario you described ‘oh he stuns me, he gets feared, he breaks the boon and gets stability, and i corrupt it’. Thats fairytale, because the likely hood of that happening is very rare.
If you corrupt boon on stability another time, well I believe you. As I said above.

Situations where Fear of Death will be useless: You get downed by a ranged player. You fear your attacker back into their zerg, where they down. They get rallied easily, you don’t.

Look the thing is, if Fear of Death is so good, why does it feature so little in your video. Surely you don’t like getting downed.

It’s not rare in a PvP scenario, people equip a lot skills that offer stability, among those will certainly be some skills that break stun + stability… if they don’t break my fear even better, but on average 70% of the duels a player will use at least 1 skill that offers them stability as well.

Derk.3189:

Nemesis.8593:

…answering SPESHAL

…The one that has a 90 second CD is what i call an opener, i put 4-5 bleeding stacks on the target… the target stuns me… big mistake, you just signed your own death… 4 second fear = 5200 damage just from the fear + the same from ~ 10 bleeding stacks = 10400 damage, if he breaks it with stability… “hahaha… you fool…” corrupt boon extra fear + 2 more sure fears (1 from DS 1 from staff)… 90% of the targets die from that…
The two that require you to be down, makes the necromancer downstate as viable as thief or mesmer downstate, prevents stomping as well as providing a lot of damage… more damage then the mesmer’s abilities that’s for sure…

Ok, regardless of what beef you have going on with speshal, I can’t agree with any of this. Reaper’s Protection as an opening I get but:

Stability does not break stuns. In fact, there are only 3 utility skills that break stuns AND grants stability. Stand Your Ground, Armor of Earth, and Mantra of Concentration. MoC is even less relevant to your argument because stability only lasts 2 seconds (which means if you have the slightest bit of lag, or was in the middle of activating another skill, your window to corrupt boon will be gone), and MoC can be used twice.

I’m not saying Corrupting stability is bad per se, but this whole argument of ‘chain fearing’ someone who broke out of fear via stability is faulty; in actuality this will only work against guardians and eles; but mostly, scrubs who think stability breaks out of fear.

Secondly, in WvW, downed2 is terrible. Stomps are dangerous to do, and much often than not, people will dps down a downed player rather than stomp. Fearing 1 target will probably just ruins someone’s chance of getting loot from your soon to be dead body.

Fear of death is also terrible because if you do manage to down a player, the fear would likely have made them run away further than your downed state attack range. They’ll have lost all their conditions which doesn’t mean well for you either.

Corrupt boon can be used not only against stability but also against any and all boons, and while not many stun breakers apply stability, there are many situations in which players apply stability on themselves alongside other boons (depends on the class)…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

Think about all the elite skills that apply stability… Necromancer Lich Form… power necromancer going all “I WILL KILL YOU ALL”… “no you are not… fear… now go away”…
Battle Standard, Rampage, Rampage As One, Dagger Storm, Tornado, Plague, Elixir X, Mortar, Avatar of Melandru… their strongest skills are turned against them… it is so… beautiful…

So a player will damage you instead of finishing you off, but since you double fear you he will move outside of range… how are these two situations true at the same time ?…

Derk.3189:

Softspoken.2410:

Derk.3189:

Fear of death is also terrible because if you do manage to down a player, the fear would likely have made them run away further than your downed state attack range. They’ll have lost all their conditions which doesn’t mean well for you either.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Fear Of Death was an AoE Fear with a fairly limited (600ish) range.

But how does it actually benefit you, or this build, unless you plan to fear suicide bomb into a group of enemies (which is actually quite undesirable). Much better off with any of the other traits tbh.

Such as ?

Softspoken.2410:

Derk.3189:

Softspoken.2410:

Derk.3189:

Fear of death is also terrible because if you do manage to down a player, the fear would likely have made them run away further than your downed state attack range. They’ll have lost all their conditions which doesn’t mean well for you either.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Fear Of Death was an AoE Fear with a fairly limited (600ish) range.

But how does it actually benefit you, or this build, unless you plan to fear suicide bomb into a group of enemies (which is actually quite undesirable). Much better off with any of the other traits tbh.

Not the point of my post. My point was, it is very doubtful the fear from Fear of Death will cause your opponent to go beyond 900 range from you. (I was just testing, it seems like the range is a little less than 600, actually.)

I can take a stab at it though. If in a close fight, your opponent goes melee and just manages to finish you off, it will interrupt any combo skill they’re using as well as doing a nice shot of damage. It also clears the area immediately around you from any melee enemies, so it can give you a second to pick and call a target or for allies to dive in and revive you without having to jump directly on top of 2 or 3 mobs.

Would you be better off with other traits? Maybe! I don’t know! But there’s a couple situations it could be useful in.

Exactly… few other traits can do a better job in this situation… the only other variation i would go for will be in my TPvP conditionmancer builds… but that relies more in NOT going down at all by having perma-regeneration on you. In WvW perma-regeneration will get you nowhere, it also forces you to go in a zerg more often to obtain it… which will prove more problematic then helpful.

MeanMug.2630:

Nemesis,

Please save your time/energy for this amazing and constructive discussion. I don’t want to discount SPECHL’s opinion, but THIS discussion is about your Fear build and we are all clear that he disagrees with it as a viable build. No need to continue to address his doubts/concerns.

So, as I see it, the ONLY difference in your build and Rennoko’s is Soul Reaping (10) and Rune selection. Is that right? I am building toward a Fear build and don’t want to overlook any subtle differences.

Thanks again for your contributions!

The difference between my build and Rennoko’s as far as i see in traits it’s only the fact that i use fear on down instead of Path of Midnight…

He uses different runes… i aim for longer fear he aims for longer bleeding duration…

Rennoko’s utilities replace my well of darkness and corrupt boon with blood is power and spectral walk/signet of the locust.

In conclusion his build has the potential of being more mobile and apply higher stacks of bleeding in time… but lacks the longer fear duration + the fear on stability and the extra anti-zerging that a well of power brings to the table.

You guys can decide…

Rennoko.5731:

blc.7963:

Rennoko.5731:

Runes are as follows:

2xAfflicted
2xKrait
2xMad King

Are the extra 10% condition duration worth not going 3xAfflicted + 3xKrait (110 condition damage)?
All in all, if you really feel the need for those 10%, you can always go to Givers weapons.

Absolutely it is worth it. If you need the extra 10%.. plus it helps all the other conditions too.

And if you start talking about the giver’s stuff, it takes your primary stat away which is 90 condition damage or 180 condition damage plus alternate stats I do not like. Just taking a giver’s weapon would cancel out the bonus condition damage you added in. (they are terrible btw, stat distribution wise).

Giver weapons offer 10% bleeding duration which is more or less the equivalent of 100-150 condition damage at 1000 condition damage, since it increases all your bleeding damage by 10% as in… 10% longer bleeds that give the 10% extra damage in that time. The thing is when you reach around 1800 condition damage 10% added to that it’s quite good… when you are under 1000 condition damage, adding 10% more damage instead of 100 condition damage will be a waste.

Always better to have 11$ then to have 9$ + 10% of 9$… but it’s better to have 17$ + 10% of that instead of 18$. That’s how i see it.

Margicar.8694:

I’ve been following this thread for the past couple of days, I would love to see some details on SPESHAL’s build and gear, since he seems to go on………………. and on……………. about off topic material and hurling abuse at Nemesis, who obviously has put allot of time and effort into helping others achieve their best. I personally appreciate it as a new lvl 80 necro still learning the ropes, this guide is very useful and works wonders.

Im still working on exotic gear but got most of it, gear from TA, fractals rings, and just bought 80 rares off the TP to fill in the slots for the mean time. Played around with this fear build and loved it, my main is a guardian an I must have switched build around 100 times before finally landing 1, I started messing around with Lopez’s condition build which is similar to this minus the fears, I think I will land somewhere in-between but still will do some crazy damage from fears and live to tell the tale.

One thing I don’t like though and that’s the mobility, I play mostly WvW with guildies and do small group tactical work and we hate zergs, generally our objective is to divert the zerg. My trouble is I can’t seem to get away fast enough if im just on the edge of death and need an escape.

Also what food are you using for +condition duration? having trouble locking it down with my short casual game playing lol.

Thank you for your input mate, i did put a lot of effort into making this one… a lot…
Your mobility while not in combat may come from switching well of power into signet of the locust until you reach your destination. Before you engage switch back and you are set…

Also when you are just on the edge of dying, mobility won’t save you as a necromancer… you can’t be like an elementalist to mist form into blink into ride the lightning into fire and be in a different zone all together.

You are build to endure through stuff while covering your escape with fears, chills and blinds… also plague form guarantees your escape vs 5 almost all the time, unless they chase you for more then 20 seconds, in which case they probably are at about 50% of their health, and when you come out… you well of power into double AoE bleeding into death shroud life transfer into some focused fears… you might kill a few, you might get them to back off since you are not worth the trouble… you might even die… but by that time you already wasted the time of 5 people, took them more then a minute to kill you… you gave them a run for their money and you have this… nice feeling inside, you won’t even feel bad, you’ll feel like a baus

As for food, open up the black lion and write pizza… you’ll find some to your liking

Edenwolf.6328:

Just tested this spec its the bomb, I altered the spec a bit but the result is virtually the same, sometimes terror even ticks 3 times. The terror ticks are nasty lol, ticking for 1282, thank you for this man it made my necro fun again!

Hell yeah…

MeanMug.2630:

Rennoko.5731:

-Snip…back at ya

Well, the survivability comes in when you may be going to/from and objective and solo roaming thiefs etc will want to stop you from getting back to the fight. Alternatively, there are those who will notice me playing around the fringes of a battle to get those “dirty bombs” set up and jump me.

What I want is to incorporate a few of those fears (4 sec fear….woot) and survivability while being able to maintain my playstyle, which I see as meaningful in the “big picture”.

EXACTLY !… and there are often thieves and interceptor warriors that you think that are fighting… but they are actually the assault team defending the guy on the siege weapon… as soon as the guy on the siege weapon gets tagged you’ll find them charging you. You can’t continue fighting the guy on the siege weapon if you just died in one hit…

Pendragon.8735:

I think some of the earlier comments about Bleed still being your bread and butter ring true to me. Terror should be a supplement to a bleed/condition build not its central core in my opinion. But you do not need 6 fears for 100% extra fear duration (or even close to 100%) to be well worth it. Nor do you have to sacrifice very much in the way of condition damage to get there.

Longer fears actually work in great harmony with high condition damage, because it increases the amount of time that opponents must suffer under condition damage.

Also want to make one input on Rennoko’s comment about never using DS1. When I ran almost an identical build to his, I also hated ever having to use DS1, but I found myself in situations where I was in DS to eat damage, waiting for a heal to come up and had no choice but to use it. In my experience normal health ran out way faster than LF, which is where you ended up in before you died.

With having dropped master of terror I needed to go 10 points into spite to get fear respectable enough duration, and I used to hate spite, but having tried it, I think 10 points is not bad at all, because Reaper’s Might is nice a little trait that gives you a reason (or at least some benefit) to firing off 1-3 Life Blasts while you are sponging damage. 2 or 3 stacks of might for about 15 seconds when you come out of DS will give you a nice little damage spike through nearly your whole rotation. Just an alternative to put out there.

Also would agree that sPVP tests are of little relevancy here, when these type of builds are so reliant on the usable food buffs in PVE/WvW. They pretty much don’t work without it.

Hmm… since you lack power, your DS 1 will do less DPS then you would do with just conditions, unless you go rampager and then you lack survivability…
See my point ?… yeah sometimes you are stuck in DS to wait for heal… and you have nothing left… so… instead of DS 1, how about you scout the field of battle while you re-position yourself / run. You don’t have to go all spartan on your enemies, you can make a small tactical retreat to heal up and come back stronger then before…

kKagari.6804:

Nemesis.8593:

I just woke up, going to cook something nice relax for a few hours after that i will finish the SPvP video/version of this build.

From everything i saw here, the problems that are brought up are… i don’t use everything (it’s hard in such a big zerg, my targets were disappearing faster then i could target them, the down fear doesn’t count as much…) and a few other things.

In SPvP… actually TPvP there will be a more clear demonstration of the build, just because of the fact it’s not as hard to demonstrate it there, i can afford focusing on what i want to demonstrate rather then a few dozen other things.

Some of the things you guys were saying aren’t bad or wrong, but you guys need to understand that it is very easy to say, “you should have done this… should have done that…” but it’s not as easy as it sounds, when every second you have to tab 3 times and make a decision, ops… that one’s gone, then tab 3 more times and make a decision… in such a big zerg… you guys can try it out for yourselves if you don’t believe me.

So i appreciate all of you guy’s input and i will answer all of you individually later today.

I can see this build working more in sPvP actually, it’d make those 1v1 scenarios use the fear on down trait more useful. As of WvW I kinda feel like you’ve ran with a gimmick a little too far, I don’t feel it works well as some others have pointed out.

What alternatives do you prefer for WvW then ?… Take in consideration you need to have range for walls, CCs for people that man siege weapons and be survivable enough to not die from shrapnel all the while having the possibility to do AoE damage.

Rennoko.5731:

MeanMug.2630:

-Snip

Thanks in advance!!!!!

So given your situation, which is a very common EB situation if you happen to be east on that map for the week, I would say your best build bet would be just a standard 20/30/20/0/0 build. Again this is just my opinion, not trying to dictate for you or anyone else.

If you don’t fight in small skirmishes much, and you do the right thing with point defense and keep defense, the most powerful deny tool for you is the staff and epi, which you pointed out. If you are not tooling around semi-solo small group, the toughness stat in general is mostly wasted.

If you focus on rampagers gear, and staff mark size/cooldown you are going to deal quite a bit more damage. You do not keep 100% fear duration, but that is not a big deal in the big zerg fights, as was pointed out.

Since you have the extra power and you can get reapers might, you can stay on staff more often, and not go into 900 range unless its safe, using life blast to build might on your conditions improving their damage.

Also you have 20% duration from the power tree, which means you can drop some other trait somewhere, or go with different runes to improve your hybrid damage. I would still maintain 100% duration on my bleeds, as that is a must for a condition/hybrid build, but you have much more leeway on how you get there. Also you can forgo hemophillia for a nice trait in its place, like chilling darkness.

Alternatively you can keep the toughness stuff and just use undead runes, to try and squeeze everything out of condition damage, with the logical argument that the bleeds rarely ever run full duration (I don’t subscribe to this philosophy, but the builds are out there).

Yes… i agree that this build may be a decent trade-off and therefor it’s equivalent, but how do you use the power aspect of this build when you are on the wall ? No weapon has enough range except staff 1… and good luck with that… You will be limited to conditions regardless, and… you just made them a little bit weaker with a different gear set… also you are a little bit less survivable.

Rennoko.5731:

Okay, but what do you take alternatively? In that build setup with 0/30/20/0/20?

If your argument is you are better off going hybrid, then thats a choice you make, but in that build setup you cannot get more damage from a different trait, even if you consider the sole purpose of terror to be dealing damage (ignoring the bursting potential and psycological effect of the damage ticking with the bleeds).

Exactly my point…

What is your alternative as a conditionmancer ?… Power builds just don’t cut it when it comes to keep defense / assault. You guys can take a power build and go outside the walls if you want, i’m staying inside and keeping the guys off catapults and battering rams.

MeanMug.2630:

Quillix…thanks for that comprehensive input. Do you have a WvW build that you suggest?

Rennoko….thanks for that explanation. Your logic is sound. On that note, perhaps I should discuss my playstyle and see if you (Nemesis, others) have thoughts on the direction I can get the most from my build (hybrid, CM, pwr etc).

I view WvW much like Nemesis’s WvW “ownage” video….ie it is a large scale objective and not reduced to random 1v1 in the field. I play with the big picture in mind

Let’s take a known area, for example, and I will describe what I consider my playstyle:

So, my team has taken the Ogre camp in Eternal BG and we have set up siege in the camp to assault Ogrewatch keep. The enemy is pressing to get into the Ogre camp to kill the siege.

As a Necro, I feel I am most valuable by sustained pressure on selected targets. My role is to prevent the enemy from gaining/keeping momentum in a given fight.

I will use the doorway (chokepoints) to keep Staff 2,3,4,5 down for area denial. I will then use Scepter 1,2,/dggr 5 to stack conditions on the most aggressive targets. I will scroll through targets looking for a few key things:

1- Players with low health. They will likely be retreating and make great “dirty bombs” that walk back to their friends as I Epidemic them

2- Gurdians. They will almost always pop all of their Boons as they rush in. I will use Corrupt Boon and Epidemic. (Haven’t decide whether I will keep CB but when it works…..it WORKS)

3- Any player with a large quantity of buffs/cond to corrupt/speread. When Corrupt Boon is on CD, I will use Epidemic on players with lots of conditions as it comes off CD.

Now, once I get a big hit off on an Epidemic something interesting happens almost every time. This is a bit outside just gaming and translates to real world scenarios but stay with me…… if the front line of an offensive pushes toward a conflict, those behind them will follow. If ONE person turns to run away, just about everyone does.

Once that BIG Epidemic hits (say a Guardian Corrupt Boon / Epidemic at full boon) the front lines of that group withers heavily. I then push into that and begin using DS 4 to further pressure. Almost without fail, I have a surge follow me and all that is left is to loot the bags and regroup.

Very frequently, I will rush a grp of downed players and use DS4 to help finish them to save the CD on my Scepter skills that have added effects (cripple etc) that would be better used on active enemies.

Another example…..I will go into a keep Scepter 2, dggr 5 on the inside of the door and then DS 4 through the door. I often use this on the outside of a keep as we assault (stand close to the wall) forcing wall defenders to either back off the edge or get close to the edge to target me.

So, although I am heavy conditions, I do use some of the pwr necro stuff to add some short term sustained pressure. I don’t want to give it up because I see the psychology of all the numbers on players screens influencing their behavior. That behavior translates into impatcing the “big picture” of WvW……

So how to I maximize my playstyle….or am I hopelessly lost?

Thanks in advance!!!!!

You are surprisingly accurate with what you are saying… some players will say… yes, and you have killed nothing… Who among you here thinks that if a necromancer is to kill a squad / army on his own is… not OP. You did your part… you also were allowed to do your part because… you were not a victim in this build and with this mindset.

I’ve spoken a lot about WvW mindset in the past and people thought i was just filling up minutes of a video with pointless discussion to get views. If i were to make that… i would bring out 2 videos every day, i did not joined youtube to do that. I actually want to help people improve.

On that note… the only thing i see missing is the focusing of key individuals, the ones that man the trebuchets, battering rams and catapults. That target will be a high profile target… usually tanky, usually with boons and stability on, he will also have his attention directed to where he is pointing the siege weapon, unless he stops and goes after you. If he does go after you you have achieved victory, if he does not he probably won’t remove his conditions right away… which puts him in a almost too late situation, which can be turned into a “it’s too late” situation. Which lives that siege weapon unmanned for a period of time, until another player… in all that chaos… sees that the siege weapon no longer fires, and needs to be manned.

All of this can be achieved because you are sustainable enough to not die in the process.
FINAL VERDICT: Siege weapon harasser.

Quillixx.7034:

When you start factoring in 2v2 and 3v3, and AOE such as Epidemic, healing, prolonged fights, the fears amount to very little overall damage. Yes, in 1v1, where your opponent is standing still and you kill them outright, it’s more, when you get into a 1v1 duel that factors in several minutes, the damage percentage it contributes drops drastically.

If you are in a duel that factors in several minutes vs anything except a really really skilled bunker then you are doing it wrong…

I can end a duel vs glass cannon thieves in about 10-15 seconds, bunkers take me a minute tops unless i mess up. Yes… with this build…

Rennoko.5731:

Quillixx.7034:

We ran Terror build tests after the Dec patch, and while the build was neat at first, it’s actual contribution in WvW and SPvP was found lacking when compared to most all other builds.

-snip

I agree with some of this post, but realize that terror is one trait, where no other traits would give more or comparable damage in that tree in that spot. Arguably the 20 points in SR could be put anywhere and they would add marginal/null DPS to a condition build.

I would absolutely dispute that the damage from terror only accounts for 5%. Maybe over the course of a long fight against a boss (prob lower than 5%), but against a player that is just inaccurate. If I fight and down someone in 30 seconds, and I have them feared for 6-8 seconds of that (1300+ a tick)….. thats quite a bit more than 5%. You are also ignoring its bursting potential through a chain.

I remember the posts early on after the terror buff talking about how weak the damage was when you count how long the cooldowns are and use that to calculate DPS over the full duration. Again that is just stupid, because pvp is fluid, and 2600 damage NOW is not the same as 2600 damage at some point in time during the fight.

You said you tested in Spvp, where you cannot get this build to work with 100% bleeds and 100% fears. You can in WvW.

I agree… also PvP is not about how high you can score on a damage meter, it’s about your opponents falling before you… You can get 1000 bleed stacks on the target if the target can cleanse it, the fear chain ensures they do not get removed before they finish the job.

Quillixx.7034:

We ran Terror build tests after the Dec patch, and while the build was neat at first, it’s actual contribution in WvW and SPvP was found lacking when compared to most all other builds.

No matter how you spin it, the DPS of a Terror build resides with bleeds, not fears. The total contribution of Terror damage coupled with the long recharge timers of the fears available, made up an estimated 5% of total damage dealt. The tests were run in a controlled SPvP room among friends, and used the ‘on death’ damage breakdown to compare both inactive killing (killing someone standing still), and duels ranging from 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3. The damage from conditions and direct damage vastly outstripped Terror, especially in prolonged encounters.

While the video provided here shows active WvW, the necro’s damage contribution is extremely below par, which is what several individuals are picking up on. A change in playstyle can fix some of that; such as picking a target more off to the side, to build up conditions, and then Epidemic. Allowing auto-target to repeatedly choose the closest target, or directly choosing the obvious target will result in little to no condition stacking, and constant condition removal. Which is what your audience saw.

What the audience didn’t see was the use of fear for control, which is one of the strengths when running this style of build. Enter DS, use Dark path to teleport to your opponent, run through them, and then chain fear them into your allies. Standing back and using your fears the way the video demonstrated did little to help in the grand scheme, because your targets were pushed out of range of yourself and your allies; effectively helping your opponents survive.

This video also demonstrated what a typical condition type necro runs into during WvW, with the large number of condition cleanses. Save for a few cases where 1 player was being focused by the entire zerg (in which case they were going to die regardless), the average bleed stack across the entire video was 3-5, and not all of which were even from the main necro, Nemesis. The net result was minor damage ouput, over the course of the recording.

From your first paragraph i would like to point out that you can not bring a PvE mentality into a PvP environment… “fear DPS is lower then bleed DPS”… yes, that’s why i would never use fear to DPS in PvE. Fear is not about DPS even though it more or less doubles your DPS for a very short period of time… fear is the there to seal the deal, fear is the nail in the coffin… without fear the target will cleanse and heal and all your DPS was in vain.

The damage was low, and i already said i am not focusing on damage, i have a video in an annotation in which me and 2 other people hold down a guard tower against 20… you can see my damage there, and i wasn’t even running this final version of a WvW build. The damage was low… but did anyone notice that i tabbed through targets at the speed of light ? How can your damage be higher in my scenario ?… Do we have constant AoEs to spam that i do not know about ?…

Yes the damage was low overall but that doesn’t mean you have an alternative, that doesn’t mean you don’t contribute… necromancers are usually the ones that kill people that are on catapults, battering rams and so on because of their fear combo + bleeds…

Another thing that people don’t understand that in such a big zerg, all the individual damage is low, but it stacks up on top of each other… and when 100 people put down 100 damage each worth of AoE in front of them… that’s 10000 damage worth of AoE before them… that is not low, and that also means all their contribution was equal.

You think the meleers that were in the front full tank spec (so they don’t get 1 shotted) do more damage ? Who does more damage ?… Thieves that pick on a target ? They are very very squishy, they would die from 4 random AoEs… who does so much more damage that doesn’t require targeting and they are tanky enough to survive the shrapnel damage…

What class and build ?

Rennoko.5731:

MeanMug.2630:

Awesome man….tyvm for writing this up.

One thought: Have you considered ‘Unyielding Blast’ for Soul Reaping 10? I know on my Engi that piercing projectiles is severely underrated in group / chokepoint fights. Not only does it hit multiple targets but, on the necro, it add Vuln and bleeds on crits……

I don’t know if this would be as impressive as my Engi but, compared to 15% cooldown improvement, I’d like to hear your thoughts.

So here is my rational about that.

When I am in DS form there are only two reasons I am there. I am popping in to get DS2/DS3 off and to put up fury. Occasionally I will use DS4 if a lot of mobs are around just for the few extra bleeds I get from the crits.

I never ever use the DS1 skill as a condition build, because it is sub-par DPS to anything else I could do. The same reason why I never use the staff 1 skill. When you have built around having zero power and zero crit damage (aside from traits) it seems completly illogical to try and blast anything with DS1. The windup is slow, and bad for applying bleeds. Vulnerability also does very little for a condition build.

I totally agree with this…

Rennoko.5731:

MeanMug.2630:

So I really like the comparisons and am finding it very helpful. Please keep contributing in a positive way and I should be piling up stacks of bodies sooner rather than later.

Rennoko….do you have any vids or a link to your build? I am anxious for Nemesis to jump back in and discuss the changes you suggested. I think you have tweaked some things that will give more “up time” to abilities that you have invested in, which I like. I don’t like investing heavily on abilities that are “niche” unless they are great. I really like the “no you don’t” fear that Nem shows to protect against the “i win” thief opener.

Keep it coming…….

I would love to do a video one day, but considering how much suffering my computer does when the screen has more than 4 sprites rendering at the same time, it may be a while. My build is as follows, and I was running it even pre-terror buff.

0 Spite
30 Curses
Hemophilia, Terror, Lingering Curses
20 Death Magic
Greater Marks, Reapers Protection (can swap this with staff CD for PVE)
0 Blood
20 Soul Reaping
Path of Midnight, Master of Terror

Utility: Epidemic, Blood is Power, Sign. Locust/spectral walk, Plague Form

I run all Condition/Toughness/Prec gear, occasionally with the fractal rings that give Cond/Vitality/Toughness if I feel squishy.

Sceptor MH/Dagger OH : Staff

The stats are the same as was linked in the nem build above more or less. Runes are as follows:

2xAfflicted
2xKrait
2xMad King

Superior Sigil of Earth in both staff and MH, with Sigil of corruption in the dagger.

---

Rare veggie pizza (40% duration + 70 cond).

Freqenty use of DS2, and DS3 are part of what I think makes this build shine in WvW. Getting in the mix makes your reapers protection almost guaranteed to hit a few people, and then they run for 4 seconds if they don’t have a fear break. Chills and cripples last a very long time.

To be honest though, this build doesn’t work well in spvp at all, because losing the 40% duration on all fears/bleeds/conditions is a massive hit to a build that focuses only on conditions. Also your condition damage is so much lower in Spvp.

Terror/barbed precision are very reliable sources of damage in wvw, and losing that extra second tick on each of those effects hurts badly. To get long enough durations in Spvp you would have to change up traits and runes.

In my opinion the above gets a nice mix of defense and offense, and really only falls short against the dreaded inanimate object. If big or small groups the greatest control you have is over spreading conditions, and this maximizes those conditions without giving up your bleed and fear damage.

Your build puts out more damage then my build in terms of bleeding DPS, also is a little bit more mobile and a little bit… wait… why Path of Midnight ?

It’s a great build… but… in my experience… the mobility you get from the utility when running with my group is useless since each time we engage the buffers buff… the healers heal… the chargers charge… Also periodically we pause to redo these things for all…

Also your damage is overall higher as sustained, not sure if you will get to use it, at the rate they cleanse things in WvW…. you can apply more stacks of bleeding then me by about… let’s say i can go to 12-14 you can go to 16-18 so in truth more DPS, but do we get a chance to go that high on average before being cleansed ?

If we do… the target dies, if we don’t the target lives… I was aiming at sealing the deal at 10 bleeding stacks and bring the target into the ground before he has a chance to cleans + heal.

lessurl.6107:

I’d been toying with the idea of trying a fear build recently also. I have always found myself playing power builds (I’m a serial respeccer so have tried a few) and had just settled on one I quite liked (I usually judge them by running around solo in wvw and seeing what I can accomplish), but this inspired me to give conditions a try for a change.

I’m a cheapskate though, plus I am not a pve fan, so I don’t have access to (and am certainly not paying for with the prices they are at) the chest, boots, accessories and staff. I filled the staff/chest/boots with rampagers instead and used rare accessories.

So my stats aren’t quite as good as those listed above, but I did go for the 100% bleed and fear duration variant in the runes.

I have to say I’m enjoying it so far, considering I’ve never played a condition spec before (and hence am making a lot of mistakes) it’s proving pretty effective. For a condition build you can put out a pretty nice burst using fear. Using corrupt boon to turn stability into fear is particularly satisfying.

I have to say though, I think I agree about the lack of usefuleness of the fear on being downed. I was never downed when I found a 1v1 (I’m sure I will be, but it wont happen often enough to make it worth it) and in a 1v2+ the fear when you go down isn’t going to save you. I think I’ll change it for the DS skills cooldown reduction as that seems like it will be more useful to me.

Go into Blood Magic nr III and nr V then, will make you constantly siphon health and have permanent regeneration alongside the other mark of blood from staff 2. You lose the “always 2 second fear 2 tick fear” which is insane when defending a keep.

MeanMug.2630:

So I really like the comparisons and am finding it very helpful. Please keep contributing in a positive way and I should be piling up stacks of bodies sooner rather than later.

Rennoko….do you have any vids or a link to your build? I am anxious for Nemesis to jump back in and discuss the changes you suggested. I think you have tweaked some things that will give more “up time” to abilities that you have invested in, which I like. I don’t like investing heavily on abilities that are “niche” unless they are great. I really like the “no you don’t” fear that Nem shows to protect against the “i win” thief opener.

Keep it coming…….

Exactly… you get the “no you don’t” and you also get the “i have you now” as soon as you see “an opening”. That is all i wanted… and i don’t go for as much bleeding duration as in PvE or even TPvP because there will be so many conditions on the target anyway that sometimes all you need to do is nudge an enemy off the cliff, he has the conditions on him… he is about to cleanse them, so he uses stability to be sure he gets to do that… you spot him… corrupt boon + fear + fear… epidemic before he dies, DEAD !… and you are free to move on…

You can also do that while staying in and around constant shrapnel damage that is on the battlefield… the damage that is being done by classes that can afford to constantly blindly spam AoE in a crowd.

Rennoko.5731:

Dietzen.6127:

BTW, I’m not your typical power build. I get 18+ seconds of protection at 50% health…so my survivability and mobility murders your extra 800 toughness.

Care to share your build? For inspiration and whatnot.[/quote]

I am sure he is using runes of the forge, which give protection for 10 seconds at 50% HP. And he has spectral armor from the DS tree, which give 6 more seconds, so with some toughness tree points, he gets around 18 seconds.

BTW, the post up a few was insanely hostile, take a chill pill. A power necro build is going to whomp a condition necro build every time. So talking about how you would pwn him is waste of time. I am sure he knows this build would suck against a power necro build.

I personally think counting downed fear, and a fear while going down, and reapers protection as accessible fears in the build is a misnomer, and makes a niche thing sound like a strength. There is nothing wrong with traiting for 100% fear duration if you match it in such a way that you do not punish the rest of your conditions. Staff and DS3 are up a lot, espeically with the CD reduction, and the extra damage is nice in a condition build.

Also I wouldn’t take his video as a classic example of the build working well. No movement utilties is in my humble opinion a serious fail, and not using DS2, and epidemic constantly is also fail (long AOE chills). Just because his video shows him not playing it right, doesn’t mean 100% bleed 100% fear is bad. Again, the downed state fear/long cooldown stuff is very niche/wasted. I also hate* corrpution boon because of its long cooldown. (compare it to BIP and epi).

While I cannot categorically say a fear/bleed/condition build (similar to this one)works better than power builds in wvw, it has given me a much better place in team fights because of the access to more control, and longer game changer conditions (like chill). Power necros still geat fears, but mine come off cooldown faster and last much longer. [/quote]

I was trying to prove only two points with everything i said, it appears i haven’t manage to get through this time in my video. One… you are survivable enough to not be collateral damage, secondly because you are survivable enough to not be collateral damage while you sustain the fight with an epidemic here and there, you have the time to carefully chose your targets in the crowd and bring them down with a fear combo…

Necromancers don’t have constant AoEs they can spam like elementalists have, so our role is not to go in a crowd and start spamming even without any target selected and still contribute… our role is… can be… we are effective at exactly what i was trying to prove. If you try different paths in my opinion you will be lacking.

Nesso.1806:

It’s a nice fear build, but I much prefer the fear/might stacking build that was posted around here a few weeks ago (with some minor personal trait modifications for myself).

It has nice survivability, decent LF generation, and might stacks help for big numbers in both power and condition damage. Nothing like fearing for 1.4k a tick for 2 seconds while wailing for 3k LF crits. Not to mention the AE mayhem that a full staff rotation does with the spec…

If that is how you find yourself owning, then go for it

I will stop now… continue later on… I will as i promised answer everyone individually… but now i have to eat, and finish the SPvP video… been working on it for 3 days now.

I have about 6 hours of tournament footage recorded… hopefully i will make it today… one can only hope.

Thank you all for your input and contribution.