Guild Wars 2

Hohou.1508:

Its old power death shroud necro build. Seems like you just took it, gave it a name and made pretty video about it.

Actually…. i am the original creator of that “old power death shroud necro build” which was first published 3 years ago.

Other people have taken my build and made a pretty guide about it which then sold to Dulfy without my knowledge or consent.

Hello everyone,

So this is the second build, for high level fractals…

GW2: Introducing the Warlock [ultimate necromancer hybrid]

This guide starts off as the most comprehensive guide for new players and gradually progresses towards the most advanced/in depth discussion up to date… for the more hardcore players, all packed in 34 minutes…

The real DPS benchmarks is where it will start to get interesting, i hope you enjoy… and if you have any questions you can leave them here or in the comment section and i will get to them eventually.

Silv.9207:

Isn’t that the old dps build that we all use from years?

It is a bit similar to the one i made back in the day, however a lot of people kept asking me what’s the updated build… so i remade that video and added a few, in my opinion, more important elements to it.

I’m talking about the real DPS benchmarks… so people understand when to use bursting/berzerker builds.

It’s been two months now and the trailblaizer inscriptions and insignias are still not visible in the mystic forge, which makes stats exchange using Anthalogies of Heroes impossible.

I have precrafted an ascended set in advance especially with the purpose of exchanging it’s stat once the trailblaizer insignias/inscriptions will be implemented in game, since we know they were not implemented from the start, a problem which was only later corrected.

Viper stats inscriptions/insignias are visible and work… trailblaizer are not…

Hello everyone,

So this is going to be the first updated build in the series…

GW2: Introducing the Wraith [necromancer bursting build]

I manage to make highly comprehensive guide for new players in the first part of the video, which gradually progresses towards a very in depth advanced discussion towards the end for the more hardcore players, all packed in 25 minutes…

Really proud of this video, it may very well be my best guide yet…
I hope you enjoy

Trailblazer’s inscriptions/insignias are not visible in the mystic forge window and therefor you can not use Anthologies of Heroes to morph the stats of any ascended set into trailblaizer stat.

http://imgur.com/ZUu0ICZ

I didn’t planned on doing raids so soon… i wanted to let the dust settle and people get their builds and strategies sorted out, however a friend invited me and i accepted.

At the first boss i ended up tanking at one point, while doing 5K bleeds… + poison & burst-stacking poison which ticks for 5K at it’s best + 10 stacks of perma torment… + 2 minion damage… and… i was most of the time full HP without support.

So you guys can imagine that i’m extremely satisfied with my first necromancer experience in raids.

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

Dodging and missing 2 scepter auto-attacks barely puts a dent in a condi build’s overall DPS… dodging and missing a 100B attack + needing to re-position severely, cripples a power bursting type build.

My point was that there is an effect (yes barely a dent, and much less then a melee zerker build, but its still a dent) while you said in your previous comment it doesn’t do anything. I think we should all strive to be as accurate in our statements as possible to avoid misinterpretation and confusion. There is plenty of misinformation and confusion already as you often point out yourself.

I agree. Going to edit the post to make it more accurate.

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

Heavy armor + perma prot + other mechanics which cripple direct type power attacks only… like stealth, blink & straight up invulnerability to any and all power type attacks.

Hence fights which demand sustain type damage.

The majority of condi builds are ranged and are also extremely tanky since they required only 2 stats for max effectiveness not 3… so that removes the need for dodging entirely, hybrid builds are squishy but also range in most cases.

Dodging and missing 2 scepter auto-attacks barely puts a dent in a condi build’s overall DPS… dodging and missing a 100B attack + needing to re-position severely, cripples a power bursting type build.

These are facts which are ignored by the “math in-a-void” which eventually leads to beyond ridiculous situations where “speed clearers” used “meta builds” advertised at 20K DPS… have 6x Icebows (which use to do 80K DPS before it was nerfed in half) and still end up doing 2K DPS at Legendary Flame Shaman…

It’s hilarious and sad at the same time.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nemesis.8593:

Axe is not meant to be used as a direct damage dealing weapon, but rather as a power up weapon for DS 1 and for that it is very good yes.

You never want to be hit accidentally, come out of DS and be stuck with a staff for the next 10 sec, and GS is not always an option since the range glass build variant doesn’t use reaper.
Dagger lacks the 10% damage modifier that axe gets which does work with DS 1.

Axe – focus is used to powerup your lifeforce so you can go back into DS1s.

Why is sometime range better to melee ?…

Despite what some people have thought the community for over 2 years, melee can suffer for major losses to DPS especially since you can’t use “teh icebow” to freeze something while you do 80K DPS to it, which means you have to dodge.

Even if you play perfectly in melee and the only time you don’t DPS is when you dodge…
5 dodged in 30 sec = 5-10 sec of DPS uptime loss = 15-30% overall DPS loss
A penalty which a range build does not suffer from.

Also don’t pay much attention to that guide, it’s filled with misleading information.

Of course, you neither take into account that even as ranged build you have to stay pretty much in melee range for party buffs, range weapons in general have lower DPS and that you have to dodge as ranged weapon user too as there is enough that makes you. etc

False… the range glass cannon was at 100% critical strike chance before fury for over 2 years now, and it was also easily capable of sustaining it’s own might stacks after the initial buff.

Dodging at range is almost never required in fights which are designed to be tackled by bursting comps, and even if you do dodge it only breaks your next auto-attack by a small fraction since you don’t require re-positioning.

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging barely puts a dent into a condition build’s overall DPS since it doesn’t not stop the conditions that are already placed on the target from doing their damage.

Axe is not meant to be used as a direct damage dealing weapon, but rather as a power up weapon for DS 1 and for that it is very good yes.

You never want to be hit accidentally, come out of DS and be stuck with a staff for the next 10 sec, and GS is not always an option since the range glass build variant doesn’t use reaper.
Dagger lacks the 10% damage modifier that axe gets which does work with DS 1.

Axe – focus is used to powerup your lifeforce so you can go back into DS1s.

Why is sometime range better to melee ?…

Despite what some people have thought the community for over 2 years, melee can suffer for major losses to DPS especially since you can’t use “teh icebow” to freeze something while you do 80K DPS to it, which means you have to dodge.

Even if you play perfectly in melee and the only time you don’t DPS is when you dodge…
5 dodged in 30 sec = 5-10 sec of DPS uptime loss = 15-30% overall DPS loss
A penalty which a range build does not suffer from.

Also don’t pay much attention to that guide, it’s filled with misleading information.

Good day,

I have also send an email directly to ArenaNet, but this might be a faster way to receive an answer.
I have recently stumbled upon
this personal damage meter

According to it’s creator:

“And here the description of why it is legal:
it is a dmg meter, which does not offend the ToS of GW2. It’s an external software which retrieves no information from the GW2 API directly. Instead it periodically takes a screenshot from the left part of the screen to determine the position of the chat panel. Afterwards it reads the first eight lines from the combat log of the screenshot and converts the read pixel data into numbers, which are then used to calculate outgoing/incoming dmg (depending on what is listed in the combat log). The whole process is specialized for the GW2 font, which means it won’t be able to convert any other pixel data into numbers.”

Full article here

I plan on testing it’s effectiveness and accuracy, but before i start this tedious work i would like to know if it is indeed legal so that if i plan using it in… let’s say YouTube videos, i am not in danger of having my account suspended.

Thank you.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

They’ll just kick after the first wave of enemies, or the first boss.

It’s impractical to make someone take a screenshot, find the screenshot, upload it… and share it via voicecom/whatever after every boss… takes a good 1-2 minutes, a delay which may upset the other members of the group.

Only the worst type of elitists/wanna-be elitists would actually make such requests, and the majority of community will quickly single them out and avoid them.

As it stands now it’s the wanna-be elitists who make the singling out with the “ping gear”, “meta or kick” and so on… before even giving the player a chance.

Your fears are kind of unfounded.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Nemesis.8593:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Nemesis.8593:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Nemesis.8593:

Andraus.3874:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Yes but why did we need another thread for this.

Yeah… force to post your DPS is so bad… especially since your DPS variate insanely based on your comp and encounter so they literally can’t force you… because at Bloomhunger you have 15k DPS with one comp, 25K DPS with perma alacrity… and the same build will give you 7K DPS at flame shaman.

Guilds right now just force you to use the “meta builds” and “meta comps” which were created based on fake math.

Making comps and builds based on real numbers and finally taking into consideration the mechanics of fights, which no one has done with math… is such a bad thing…

I’ve seen thousands of “meta or GTFO”, “READ OR KICK”, “META KNOW YOUR kitten” LFG groups for the past 2 years…

Having the a tool which will make people eventually realize that they can not play the game based on fake math which never resembles reality… thus they should stop kicking and discriminating and that playing full zerker melee vs a boss with perma prot, deadly AoE attacks and power invulnerability shield may not be such a good idea after all…

IS… WRONG… because you said so.

Q1: what build(s) do you use now, and where did you get them from ?
Q2: have you ever vote kicked another player out of a pug group, based on what ?

A1 i use full zerker, because thats give you the best dps. and it has been tested by time and thats what all top players use, and thats good enough for me!
A2 I have never kicked any player until after HOT release, I kicked players who obviously don’t have HOT, because I feel they can not contribute as much damage due to the lack of elite specialization, and I dont like people leeching (when they are playing for free and I have to pay 50 dollars!)

Exactly as i thought…

1. Berzerker does not give out the best DPS, and a damage meter would prove that in a day.
2. All of the spreadsheets are wrong, unless you want to tell me DPS uptime, perma protection, power invulnerability mechanics, dodge… and so on do not change the outcome of a fight at all, in which case… oh dear god…
3. Everything you think you know about the game, based on which you now kick other players… has been thought to you by the “self proclaimed top players” based on 100% fake math which no one can prove in reality

You play the game wrong, kick others who actually contribute… and are against the tool which would put an end to that.

Thank you for your contribution, that’s all i needed.

This individual also said “if you think Guild Wars 2 has an elitist community that kicks people and what not you are off your meds”, as if to further prove my point…

This is exactly why we need a personal damage meter.

I am too tired to argue, but I think some thing are best left as a mystery, maybe you are right maybe not, but we must not be selfish and just satisfy what is best for ourselves, we must think about the community, and everyone in that community.

My friend… if we had a personal damage meter, you would see with your own eyes that your maximum DPS vs bosses with heavy armor, perma prot, power invulnerability shields and deadly AoEs is only about 10% of what you get in other locations… therefor you really don’t need to struggle so much as a squishy zerker to achieve so little when you can much have so much more effectiveness with so much less effort by playing a condition build in that particular encounter.

Once you see that with your own eyes, next time a condition build player joins your party at that particular encounter, you will not kick him… in favor of another zerker with the same low effectiveness… you will be happy to see that condition using player.

Do you understand what i am saying ?

If we ever get a damage meter we’ll laugh together about how you use to struggle to achieve so little in some encounters when it could have been done so much more elegant.

I’m the guy who was mad enough to test the REAL DPS values of the meta builds so i’m one of the only people who actually knows what is what…

I hear what you said, and yes it would be nice to optimize every build for every fight! as a matter of fact I wish you the bets of luck, and if this link https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2xxdfo/gw2_dmg_meter/ is a real damage meter, you already got what u wanted, so why are we even arguing, you should go take a look at that link and I must go to sleep, good luck to you! Oh by the way I can see you are a very dedicated guild war 2 player and I really really do admire that from someone! I wish you best of luck and I mean no harm if I offended you in any way!

No worries, and sorry if i came off a bit strong in my replies to you… i just had to deal with a lot of trolls lately and my patience has kind of warn out.

Have a pleasant sleep.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

FYI there is already a personal DPS meter for GW2 that is completely legal to use. It was part of Anets official Overwolf contest:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2xxdfo/gw2_dmg_meter/

I know of it… and the one which does memory reading.

The first one is not accurate when too many numbers flood the screen which renders it unreliable for condition builds.

The second one is illegal, also not always accurate and it doesn’t register the damage done vs targets in stealth at all… or so i’ve been told cough cough.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Nemesis.8593:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Nemesis.8593:

Andraus.3874:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Yes but why did we need another thread for this.

Yeah… force to post your DPS is so bad… especially since your DPS variate insanely based on your comp and encounter so they literally can’t force you… because at Bloomhunger you have 15k DPS with one comp, 25K DPS with perma alacrity… and the same build will give you 7K DPS at flame shaman.

Guilds right now just force you to use the “meta builds” and “meta comps” which were created based on fake math.

Making comps and builds based on real numbers and finally taking into consideration the mechanics of fights, which no one has done with math… is such a bad thing…

I’ve seen thousands of “meta or GTFO”, “READ OR KICK”, “META KNOW YOUR kitten” LFG groups for the past 2 years…

Having the a tool which will make people eventually realize that they can not play the game based on fake math which never resembles reality… thus they should stop kicking and discriminating and that playing full zerker melee vs a boss with perma prot, deadly AoE attacks and power invulnerability shield may not be such a good idea after all…

IS… WRONG… because you said so.

Q1: what build(s) do you use now, and where did you get them from ?
Q2: have you ever vote kicked another player out of a pug group, based on what ?

A1 i use full zerker, because thats give you the best dps. and it has been tested by time and thats what all top players use, and thats good enough for me!
A2 I have never kicked any player until after HOT release, I kicked players who obviously don’t have HOT, because I feel they can not contribute as much damage due to the lack of elite specialization, and I dont like people leeching (when they are playing for free and I have to pay 50 dollars!)

Exactly as i thought…

1. Berzerker does not give out the best DPS, and a damage meter would prove that in a day.
2. All of the spreadsheets are wrong, unless you want to tell me DPS uptime, perma protection, power invulnerability mechanics, dodge… and so on do not change the outcome of a fight at all, in which case… oh dear god…
3. Everything you think you know about the game, based on which you now kick other players… has been thought to you by the “self proclaimed top players” based on 100% fake math which no one can prove in reality

You play the game wrong, kick others who actually contribute… and are against the tool which would put an end to that.

Thank you for your contribution, that’s all i needed.

This individual also said “if you think Guild Wars 2 has an elitist community that kicks people and what not you are off your meds”, as if to further prove my point…

This is exactly why we need a personal damage meter.

I am too tired to argue, but I think some thing are best left as a mystery, maybe you are right maybe not, but we must not be selfish and just satisfy what is best for ourselves, we must think about the community, and everyone in that community.

My friend… if we had a personal damage meter, you would see with your own eyes that your maximum DPS vs bosses with heavy armor, perma prot, power invulnerability shields and deadly AoEs is only about 10% of what you get in other locations… therefor you really don’t need to struggle so much as a squishy zerker to achieve so little when you can much have so much more effectiveness with so much less effort by playing a condition build in that particular encounter.

Once you see that with your own eyes, next time a condition build player joins your party at that particular encounter, you will not kick him… in favor of another zerker with the same low effectiveness… you will be happy to see that condition using player.

Do you understand what i am saying ?

If we ever get a damage meter we’ll laugh together about how you use to struggle to achieve so little in some encounters when it could have been done so much more elegant.

I’m the guy who was mad enough to test the REAL DPS values of the meta builds so i’m one of the only people who actually knows what is what…

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Nemesis.8593:

Andraus.3874:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Yes but why did we need another thread for this.

Yeah… force to post your DPS is so bad… especially since your DPS variate insanely based on your comp and encounter so they literally can’t force you… because at Bloomhunger you have 15k DPS with one comp, 25K DPS with perma alacrity… and the same build will give you 7K DPS at flame shaman.

Guilds right now just force you to use the “meta builds” and “meta comps” which were created based on fake math.

Making comps and builds based on real numbers and finally taking into consideration the mechanics of fights, which no one has done with math… is such a bad thing…

I’ve seen thousands of “meta or GTFO”, “READ OR KICK”, “META KNOW YOUR kitten” LFG groups for the past 2 years…

Having the a tool which will make people eventually realize that they can not play the game based on fake math which never resembles reality… thus they should stop kicking and discriminating and that playing full zerker melee vs a boss with perma prot, deadly AoE attacks and power invulnerability shield may not be such a good idea after all…

IS… WRONG… because you said so.

Q1: what build(s) do you use now, and where did you get them from ?
Q2: have you ever vote kicked another player out of a pug group, based on what ?

A1 i use full zerker, because thats give you the best dps. and it has been tested by time and thats what all top players use, and thats good enough for me!
A2 I have never kicked any player until after HOT release, I kicked players who obviously don’t have HOT, because I feel they can not contribute as much damage due to the lack of elite specialization, and I dont like people leeching (when they are playing for free and I have to pay 50 dollars!)

Exactly as i thought…

1. Berzerker does not give out the best DPS, and a damage meter would prove that in a day.
2. All of the spreadsheets are wrong, unless you want to tell me DPS uptime, perma protection, power invulnerability mechanics, dodge… and so on do not change the outcome of a fight at all, in which case… oh dear god…
3. Everything you think you know about the game, based on which you now kick other players… has been thought to you by the “self proclaimed top players” based on 100% fake math which no one can prove in reality

You play the game wrong, kick others who actually contribute… and are against the tool which would put an end to that.

Thank you for your contribution, that’s all i needed.

This individual also said “if you think Guild Wars 2 has an elitist community that kicks people and what not you are off your meds”, as if to further prove my point…

This is exactly why we need a personal damage meter.

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Offair.2563:

Just my 2 cents.

If this meter will be completely personally as in only showing your own dps and not of someone else, why not? I used one in WoW just to see my own performance and to see if i could improve myself on certain encounters.

the problem is it will not be just for you, the potential for abuse is obvious. and once you allow personal dps meter, very fast the elitist plaeyrs will demand dps meter for every single encounter! Also personal DPS is not personal because immediately parties force you to post your best dps score, whether it is in chat, instant message, or forums!

You are being ridiculous… they can’t force you to post your DPS before you even made it, and by the time you did finish the instance being kicked or not is irrelevant.

Right now people are being kicked at “hello” by others who blindly follow spreadsheet math which is nowhere near close to reality.

Unless you are a wanna-be elitist who enjoys kicking others based on spreadsheets, a personal damage meter will not effect you what so ever.
It will simply allow players to make the correct decisions and improve themselves… and it will also make them stop following spreadsheets and conclusions drawn from them… which is the reason people kick others at “hello” in the first place.

Andraus.3874:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Citronvand.2837:

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

Arena net please don’t add a damage meter, this will only create elitism! I really don’t want this game to turn into wow!

Let me give you an example, in world of Warcraft there are raids, and in every raid there are will be failiure the first try! After each failure people start whining and blame each other, and in the end the raid lead is forced by everyone to boot the lowest dps, lowest heal. In all honesty 1 wipe is ok and just to boot people for 1 failure is just stupid I don’t want this game to turn into wow thank you!

Guild War 2 have the best community and the friendliest players I don’t want that to change. In all honesty I don’t mind carrying a bad player no matter how difficult the content is thank you!

Would you be against a personal damage meter that only you can see?

no! however that still have the potential to create elitism for example guilds forcing people to post their best dps!

Yes but why did we need another thread for this.

Yeah… force to post your DPS is so bad… especially since your DPS variate insanely based on your comp and encounter so they literally can’t force you… because at Bloomhunger you have 15k DPS with one comp, 25K DPS with perma alacrity… and the same build will give you 7K DPS at flame shaman.

Guilds right now just force you to use the “meta builds” and “meta comps” which were created based on fake math.

Making comps and builds based on real numbers and finally taking into consideration the mechanics of fights, which no one has done with math… is such a bad thing…

I’ve seen thousands of “meta or GTFO”, “READ OR KICK”, “META KNOW YOUR kitten” LFG groups for the past 2 years…

Having the a tool which will make people eventually realize that they can not play the game based on fake math which never resembles reality… thus they should stop kicking and discriminating and that playing full zerker melee vs a boss with perma prot, deadly AoE attacks and power invulnerability shield may not be such a good idea after all…

IS… WRONG… because you said so.

Q1: what build(s) do you use now, and where did you get them from ?
Q2: have you ever vote kicked another player out of a pug group, based on what ?

Ulion.5476:

Damage meter would create more elitism. Guild Wars 2 was made catering to the casual gamers. That’s why we have horizontal progression, the players that look better have spent more gold/money/time getting that gear.

When I played wow their were always bosses made to difficult to block content and give devs the time to create more content. Then the boss gets nerfed and every guild beats it. I remember in Wow their was a boss so hard that it required a guild stacking necros to beat it. I do not want guilds to exclude classes because of dps/healing.

Elitism already exists in Guild Wars 2, worse then in games that have a damage meter because a few people decided to create metas based on math calculations.

Those math calculations are false in all accounts and they do not take into consideration the mechanics of the encounter…

The math showed the sinister engineer does 20K DPS and a zerker necromancer does 14K DPS without timewarp. In reality however the sinister engineer does about 10-12K, and the necromancer does 6-14K based on the encounter (if boss has perma prot & other anti-power invulnerabilities).

Based on these “facts”, the majority of the community used “the meta” for nearly 2 years, completely excluding necromancers and rangers… and playing full zerk melee even in places where the mechanics of the encounters were lowering their max DPS potential by about 80% to literally 2K DPS.

All condition, tank and healer builds were frowned upon.

I have never seen any other MMO, in over 15 years… where 2 classes are so aggressively excluded from the so called “meta”… that i personally received hundreds of PMs/emails with people telling me that they just got kicked at “hello”.

Guild Wars 2 already has a more elitist community then most other MMOs due to the fact an unknown % of the community look up to the “math-in-a-void” for guidance, and like i said… the math gives out insane DPS number differences between classes because it does not take into consideration the mechanics of the encounters which balance these numbers out.

HoT is out… Alacrity just took the complexity of the combat system up to the next level… math calculations will be 2 times worse then before.

When people fail raids they will turn towards math calculations once again… it will be total chaos.

All i am asking is for a personal damage meter, so that people see that the math never resembles reality… that their REAL DPS values are actually all over the place depending on the encounter, and that sometimes they do far more DPS with a lot less effort if they would be playing a condition build… vs targets with perma prot, stealth or blink… sometimes accepting a tank build will actually make their DPS look higher because they had more DPS uptime, and so on…

They can draw all these conclusions for themselves and in time form a correct opinion… and most importantly stop wrongfully excluding builds and classes from the so called “meta”.

Like i’ve always said, the only thing worse then elitism is delusional elitism.

Miku.6297:

In a game that wants to focus on inclusive play, and not excluding others based on their “preformance” a DPS meter that could be used to compare one person to another wouldn’t be welcome.

A meter for your personal DPS that was unviewable by any other might be ok, but anything more would obviously be used for the same purposes they are used in other MMOs.

I agree… especially since most people would not know how to interpret the values they are seeing.
I would never ask for a damage meter, since i am one of the only people mad enough to test the real DPS values in a few dozen fights… i saw with my own eyes how the damage in this game is all over the place.

However without a damage meter i fear we are looking at another 2 years of “meta builds” which work from about 50% less of what they are advertised at via math-in-a-void all… the way to 5% based on the encounter’s mechanics.

… and of course people taking melee power builds vs bosses with perma protection and full power invulnerabilities every now and then, while completely kicking “class X” from parties.

It’s a very sticky situation… but i still think elitism is better then delusional elitism which we had for over 2 years now.

I tried to get the real values myself… 5 days… and i only scratched the surface of it all, i can’t do it… no mortal man can do that amount of work.

I only want the damage meter so people see for themselves some encounters require bursting builds but in other places in the game the builds that got them 16K DPS only put out 4K… and it’s much better to just go hybrid or condi…

The game’s complexity just grew exponentially because of the new mechanics and alacrity, but without a damage meter it will go over people’s heads… and they’ll just use a single build/comp everywhere, just like in the last 2 years…

With the recent adjustment to boss real HP values, as well as the addition of new game changing mechanics which go on top of the old ones… combined with “Alacrity” and “Quickness” which amplify everything exponentially to a point where using the wrong build/build comps… for the encounter… is five times more costly then before.

Example:
Before HoT – same team comp / damage rotations

5x Icebows vs Bloomhunger scale 50 (2133327 HP) = 17.3 sec SPEEDKILL (with timewarp) -> party DPS = 123313 -> average player’s DPS = ~ 24662

0x Icebows vs Bloomhunger scale 50 (2133326 HP) = 35 sec SPEEDKILL (with timewarp) -> party DPS = 60952 -> average player’s DPS = ~ 12190

6x Icebows vs Legendary Flame Shaman scale 50 (1493329 HP) = 113.7 sec SPEEDKILL (with timewarp) -> party DPS = 13133 -> average player’s DPS = ~ 2438

Previously Icebow was skyrocketing the effectiveness of bursting builds/comps used in the encounters which facilitate such comps while doing nothing in encounters where the mechanics dictate that you require sustain/condition type damage.

Icebow has been nerfed out of play but in it’s place Alacrity has appeared which does the same for power builds, but also amplifies the effectiveness of condition builds across the board.

Simply put bursting comps in scenarios which require bursting now have extreme effectiveness / sustained condition type comps in scenarios which require sustain condition type DPS now have extreme effectiveness.

Using a bursting comp in scenario which requires sustained condition type comps is far more devastating then before.
Using a sustained condition type comp in a scenario which requires a bursting comp is far more devastating then before.

Some members of the community have tried providing guidance using “math-in-a-void” which 100% neglects all in game mechanics and have came up with extremely misleading conclusions because of it even before Alacrity…

Doing manual REAL DPS tests is not an option because of the insane amount of work involved, doing math-in-a-void is probably just as demanding if not more demanding if you wish to have accurate conclusions… and will end up giving 100 different spreadsheets with 20 exceptions and other situational conditions.

Even without Alacrity the damage values were all over the place, greatly variating from encounter to encounter because of it’s mechanics…
NOW ?… It’s going to be total chaos.

The game is far too complex to be lacking the primary tool required to find out what works and what doesn’t in every situation.

“Play however you want” is not even close to being true anymore…

We… need… a damage/support meter.

What do you get when you put a greatsword in a necromancer’s hand ?

A deathknight

Bhawb.7408:

Tzeh Pesh.9508:

Aren’t blanket statements like this somewhat the issue here though?

When its true, no. Condi Necro’s entire max DPS can be outdone by just burning from the better condi builds, its also outdone by basically every power build in group settings. So in the context the blanket is true.

Condi Necro does much better in PvP/solo play because of how its conditions work, but when its just about raw damage, which is all that’s important when you consider condi necro vs other condi builds in a group PvE setting, we lose hard.

This is exactly what i mean when i say people who have absolutely no idea about the class, keep teaching others about what is what.

I shouldn’t even mention how many times i have been ridiculed by this particular individual for my statements.

Say Bhawb… you just said “Condi necro’s entire max DPS can be outdone by justburning from the better condi build”… kind of vague…

How about you tell me what’s the condition damage stat and condition duration of the build in question, as well as the rotation and the max DPS said rotation can achieve… then tell me the same for “the better condi builds”.
Oh… let’s also take into consideration small things like ramp-up time and if it’s sustained or burst stacking.

You’ve always made statements and told others what is what… i wonder if you have any idea what you are actually talking about, really… tell me the values…

People say i am not looking for a constructive debate and i ignore criticism or questions.

It took me an insane amount of time to make those videos, and now… what… i’m suppose to personally contradict every single person who decides to make claims out of their imagination on things they have 0 knowledge on.

This is ridiculous… and i know that as soon as i leave this thread it’s going to get a lot worse.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Nemesis.8593:

JoaoFA.8475:

Today I joined a fractal lvl38, it only had one guy in it (the one who posted it in the lfg) and had the only requirements of “zerk” and “experienced”. As soon as I joined, he insta kicked me and then whispered me that he didnt want to be slowed down by horrible necros and “gl in finding another group”.

People can be really stupid. That’s all I have to say.

Impossible…

Bawb and a few others said no one was kick necromancers, Spoj here is saying necromancer is so much better now because we have the “gravedigger” !

The fake math ruined the community’s perception on the class, i am trying to fix that by exposing what the math actually is… as in fake… and some necromancer players hate me for it.

Well… this is disappointing…

To be fair, I think they’re more angry with you because of the rude and confrontational manner in which you deliver your points. You’re trying to stir up controversy, so you really can’t complain when you get what you want.

Mythbusting is at its most effective when it’s either dispassionate or charmingly humorous. If you put people on the defensive, they’re going to dig in their heels and push back regardless of whether your math checks out. You’ve made them want to disagree with you.

Yes… you are correct…

However… what i am saying now i have always said, just never in this format.
The only feedback i got was an insane amount of ridicule from the “elites” and… i don’t really know what % of the average players actually believed me, especially since they saw bosses melting left and right because of the Icebow (with or without the linecasting exploit).

Now… in this format… i changed more minds in 2 weeks then i did in 2 years, my usual elitists trolls from my channel’s comment section are all but gone…. I’ve got Brazil on my side… Goku might be joining soon…

I bet you anything that if i would have just published builds and advertise 8-10K REAL DPS on them i would have been ridiculed by Nike, Sesshi, Goku and Spoj for days on end… maybe some time later i will find the same builds on Dulfy, cause you know…

It’s not pretty i admit… but it is highly effective.

spoj.9672:

Nemesis you keep missing the point. Were not trying to compare real dps. Were simply finding what deals more damage.

Wait what ?… ohhh… what deals more damage in the mystical land of the void… where unicorns, fake math, and 25K DPS without time warp builds exist.

I am missing the point… yet you fail to realize we do not fight in your imagination but in the actual game, where real DPS does matter… cause you know… it’s real…

You’re trying hard to get people to use that melee reaper zerker necro with dhuumfire in raids which will probably get them to do 3K DPS for the whole 15 seconds which they will be alive.

But hey… go on… it’s not me the people will be angry at when that happens.
If i ever want to troll someone… i will recommend that build to them.

JoaoFA.8475:

Today I joined a fractal lvl38, it only had one guy in it (the one who posted it in the lfg) and had the only requirements of “zerk” and “experienced”. As soon as I joined, he insta kicked me and then whispered me that he didnt want to be slowed down by horrible necros and “gl in finding another group”.

People can be really stupid. That’s all I have to say.

Impossible…

Bawb and a few others said no one was kick necromancers, Spoj here is saying necromancer is so much better now because we have the “gravedigger” !

The fake math ruined the community’s perception on the class, i am trying to fix that by exposing what the math actually is… as in fake… and some necromancer players hate me for it.

Well… this is disappointing…

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Builds made by math…

And of course there’s a new wave of stuff being promoted “necromancer is in a much better spot right now… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions…

That is why i will say again… you guys either take my word for it, or… do… in your own time… Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because in the end i got close to nothing out of it.

Would you agree with me that manually calculating the real DPS of a 100 Bloomhunger kills and taking the average of those 100 Bloomhunger kills would be a more accurate representation of someones real DPS at Bloomhunger then of merely manually calculating it for 1 kill?

Yes… of course…

However it’s not about the DPS at bloomhunger, but about the major differences between REAL DPS values of the same build with the same damage rotation… in different scenarios.

Brazil and Narc both had 9K to 11K+ DPS at Bloomhunger based on the number of Icebows used.
Brazil’s DPS dropped down to 5K in ascalonian… and 2K at grawl shaman.

Now… even if it’s 3 to 6K in ascalonian on average and 1 to 3K at grawl shaman on average…
the differences in DPS of the same build, played by the same person… with the same team comp… based on encounter, are so great… that it literally renders all math spreadsheets meaningless even for comparison purposes.

At grawl shaman you do more with a condition build if you play with your left foot then you would with a melee zerker, in a premade group… at Brazil’s skill level…

Will the spreadsheets ever give out such conclusions ?… Will they ever show the mind-blowing variations in DPS based on encounter ?

All they give out now is unachievable static values which serve absolutely no real purpose other then self advertise, and have confused the entire Guild Wars 2 community for over 2 years…

I have said these things since this whole mess started and received an insane amount of ridicule for it…

I knew that if i am ever going to continue making guides to builds that actually work without icebow, and advertise real DPS numbers in them… without people going “pffff… so small… sinister engineer does 20K”… i must first break the false “berserker meta”.

I have done that… yet some people still refuse to knowledge my real DPS numbers and the conclusions drawn from them.

Well then… those people should make their own tests, draw their own conclusions… i’ll just be waiting here quietly for when they do… just to see what they have to say then.

Also, i wish to apologize for my previous… blunt… reply, it is not always easy to distinguish between who is actually asking a question and who is just trolling.

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Not necessarily bad… just wrongly advertised… it’s like me telling you guys to paint the walls with your hands, or cut some bread with a screwdriver or put on makeup with a bottle of champagne… and so on…

And of course there’s already “necromancer is not so bad anymore… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS as the spreadsheets claimed.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions based on math in a void.

That is why i will say again… you guys either acknowledge i am right based on the proof i offered so far, or… do… in your own time…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years. The choice is yours.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because i ended up getting almost nothing out of this.

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Actually, it would prove very little other then allowing him to state something along the lines of “On thursday the 12th of november 2015 I had higher DPS on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my necromancer then on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my elementalist.” Or the other way around, but judging from his statement that he is not as experienced with his elementalist doing more DPS with his necromancer could be are more likely outcome.

And while such a statement might be true and accurate it does not say anything about whether or not what profession actually does more DPS. There are too many random variables to make statements about balance based on simply a case to case comparison. You would need a far greater sample size to achieve such a thing which would be extremely time consuming. Which why spreadsheets and calculations and statistics would be able to present far more useful data in a much less time.

You are wrong… on all accounts.
How little people understand yet they believe they know enough to give advice or contradict.
My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

Until one of you does this… you’ll continue to believe that spreadsheets actually mean something.

… you don’t even have to tell me the results, “just do it”.
You’ll thank me later.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Aenesthesia.1697:

echoeagle.5439:

I love them, I got all the minions with death and blood magic and enemies never even touch me. Maybe in pvp they suck cuz players are smart enough to ignore the minions but I think its really awesome playing with them

Necros deal subpar damage (in ideal situations). You are glad that enemies kill your pets instead of you, but other professions can survive as well, with good positioning and timing of their skills. In a perfect scenario, being tanky at the expense of less damage is not a good idea.

Just try to use an elementalist and you will see the very noticeable difference in damage. If you can position yourself as to constantly deal damage without dodging all the time and interrupting your own casts, you will deal significantly more damage than with the necro.

Really ?… You seem pretty sure of that… which means it shouldn’t be too difficult for you to back that up with some non-icebow footage now would it ?

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

You can even use the icebow at the other fights, except for the Bloomhunger, because he is fat…
So… you do the damage, you add it up, you divide by the time of the fight and you post for everyone here to see, and i will do the same.

What do you say my friend ?

doomslayer.6574:

Hey nemesis what about Particlars tempest video where he shows he does 29,700 DPS after 16s and over 19k DPS over 72s on Bloomhunger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA6py7jiV88

Are you going bash it too and say its all fake and wrong
What have you got to say about that

During the livestream someone said he has proof of higher DPS, and i encouraged him to present it to us for all to see… it was this video…

Yes… this is actually MY POINT so i thanked the person for presenting us with this video and for being the first to finally convert to REAL DPS numbers.

Observe…

http://i.imgur.com/uWDaTcU.jpg – no icebow
http://i.imgur.com/lkF0R2V.jpg – 2 icebows
http://i.imgur.com/YkxeXxA.jpg – 4 icebows

Although the majority of people still do not acknowledge icebow was carrying them at targets with a large enough hitbox… and also that necromancer could ever be higher DPS then a warrior who also buffs, hence the initial comparison.

http://i.imgur.com/7BsOrXx.jpg

But the trick is… icebow hard-carries ONLY on bosses with a large enough hitbox and no mechanics which can negate the icebow burst (which was 80K DPS over 3.7 sec… totaling at 300.000 damage)… leaving players playing really “bad builds for the encounter and thinking they are extremely effective”.

Observe:
http://i.imgur.com/BEwmuqI.jpg

So if you are the author of that video, i thank you for it… at least we now know the icebow nerf was real and i don’t have to verify that for myself.

I wish more people would collaborate with me to get more REAL DPS benchmarks out so that we can finally… after 2 years… have actual optimized groups for encounters, not stuff that relies on icebow and only works in a few situations…

PS: I see a few of these “necromancer experts” continue to ignore all my facts or questions, and spread misleading information which they don’t even understand… i’m done…

More and more people are questioning the real DPS numbers, and those who have trashed the necromancer class in the past have changed their mind since i released my videos…
In time… people’s perspective on the necromancer class will get fixed, i have already won. Unless of course they want to take credit for my work again, but i’ll make sure that never happens… there’s a reason why i am around these forums and keep answering people, get some more snapshots… you may never know when you need them.

OP… and any new player here, remember… everything and anything anyone ever claims, EVEN ME, has to be proven… that is all…

Good luck everyone.

Altoid.9104:

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

I have heard that Necro deals kitten damage / is the lowest dps in the game more times than I can count. I’ve been playing since Beta, and I use to think it was true because of how much people talked about dps calculations. So maybe you aren’t one of those people, but then I just saw you say how terrible Necro condition damage is in another ongoing thread when someone asked about it.

Exactly… we all have heard this time and time again… even now if you as a necromancer make an LFG for anything very few people join, if i switch to engineer i get instantly full group.

Going to quote Spoj here for a sec, so we are on the same page.

http://i.imgur.com/vnFLGG7.png
http://i.imgur.com/oN6ysGn.png
http://i.imgur.com/YK4RQBh.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZZpPcm7.jpg

OP… you asked why everyone thinks necromancer is bad ?… Here’s just a few reasons, and he has been doing this for years… an avid believer of the math-in-a-void despite what he now claims, after i released my video proof which shows all the math is fake.

He said a few times “no one claimed necromancer’s damage was low, he was not taken for the support”.
As you can see that is not true and also it’s an illogical sentence to begin with… since you don’t kill a boss with support, the support in a group should have been for a necromancer… but it wasn’t… because everyone though the necromancer’s damage is the lowest.

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

You have seen my videos with your own eyes and you know i do not start the clock at prebuffing… in addition to that I have told you 5 times already that i do not start the clock when buffing starts… i only did it once to show what kind of a DPS loss prebuffing actually is.

Nowhere have you ever stated that this is a one time thing, and when we had our little dispute yesterday you even tried to defend your method as valid once again…

Nemesis.8593:

You also saw the real DPS values of the world records, which you now claim no one has done… you also saw the real DPS values of icebow and how it carried people at bosses with a large enough hitbox.

Err, no. What i saw in your videos were you claiming this constantly verbally, while some random fights against mossman /bloomhunger were running in the background. Nor have I ever claimed that no one used icebows. What I told you way back is that linecasting was despised upon by the community when it came to record kills. You maybe mix me up with other people.

Nemesis.8593:

I have told you all of these a couple of times already every time you try to contradict me, besides the fact you have seen these facts with your own eyes…
You also have no records, no guides no nothing… you probably never even did any math on your own.

I have not tried to contradict you, I simply pointed out where the flaws in your method are. This has nothing to do with the person using these flawed methods. You make this a personal thing, and I still don’t see a reason why I should care enough about you to attack your personally. If anything, your behavior is worrisome from a observer POV.
Also yes, I don’t publish spreadsheets usually, but I have tons of build-recommendations in my post-history, mainly because I rather come up with individualized builds in PvP situations, a place where dps is only a small portion of your concerns. Feel free to look them up.
Besides, explain me what my publish-behavior has to do with the validation of my points? Why do I have to be a avid user of a method in order to understand & utilize it when needed? Does that mean you have even less of a clue than me, since you straight up refuse to use it?

All you do is contradict me with 100% false claims and provide others with misleading information… straight up teaching them bad things with 0 proof to back up anything you claim.

Nope, that’s solely your business.
- You start the clock at random times.
- Tell people your actual dps is what they can expect to meet always, instead of spreadsheet math (mistake here is that there is no one playing like you, since everybody has unique skill-levels & unique RNG outcomes, so no one will ever meet your numbers as well)
- Use RNG as argument why spreadsheets will never reflect reality and right after that try to use exactly this – theoretical calculations – to build the RNG of dodges into normalized calculation models.

Nemesis.8593:

Why isn’t this against regulations ?…

“Providing misleading information nonstop” should be against the rules on this forum.

It is, guess why you get banned so often. But misleading information is not what you think it is, it is constantly derailing threads with ad-hominems & public shaming attacks. Could you maybe stop using these vicious methods and rely on the content of you points only? I don’t know if you realize that, but you keep attacking those who disagree with you, constantly. Look up in the rest of the thread, where I had civil discussion with others. Have you seen me jumping their throat for disagreeing with me?

Here’s a question for you since you are so “happy to help”.

What’s the damage rotation behind the 25K DPS revenant ?
(I bet you are going to look it up right now and make a comeback…)

You have absolutely no idea what’s in those spreadsheets or how they reached those numbers or why… but you continue to make assumption after assumption after assumption…

You’re right, I don’t play revenant currently, so I’ve not looked up how meta-builds look like for it. But if you want to, I could give you my interpretation of what it says about sinister engi, since I was personally very interested in that topic.
As stated above, I don’t use the meta that often, still the content of the spreadsheets is very easily understandable. I mean, there are literally just the continuous calculation of 4 values, generated by your gear-choice + individual formulas for each condition type.
What is there, so complicated that I wouldn’t understand it unless I crunch the numbers 24/7 for 2 years^^

I think i’m getting a headache again, there’s simply too many “experts” who don’t even have the slightest idea what damage rotation were used in the spreadsheets but they continue to make claims… X is better then Y, this is better then that… you should do this and that…

No idea if you even address me with that, but if you do, read my posts again. You might learn a thing or two. Also, quit the constant ad-hominem. It just derails threads & leads towards infractions for both of us and anyone else who steps down to your level.

Just to remember you where I came from:
You compared your high-dps necro to a warri buff-support build, and told everybody that your higher personal dps on your necro build were reason enough to push phalanx strength warris out of the meta, using your flawed dmg calculation model. This was literally the point of your first video, and the first time I responded to you, because it seemed odd to me.
I challenged this, by pointing out the flaws in both your method and your final conclusion. You decided to call me troll, and ripped my posts out of context, even trying to publicly shame me in your 3rd clip by publicly posting them on youtube.
And this very behavior is prohibited by the CoC of these forums, sadly it didn’t happen on these forums…
Hence we’re sitting here, me defending myself against the public shame attack of a random youtuber, that is trapped in his own limited mindset of how dps-calculations and the meta in general have to look like.
And you… no idea what you’re up to still. Clicks? Money from dulfy for your builds? Just the comfy feeling of being perceived as right? I sincerely have no idea.
You wouldn’t get all these headaches if you’d not have attacked me – and others – personally in the first place.

Not even going to waste more time on this… just reading through it i saw you straight up lied 4 times by the time i got to the middle. I said “you have seen with your own eyes when i start the timer, and i told you that just in case you missed it”… and you go “blabla… no no no… there were random fights” on fights i literally show how i take them off of world record website.

You’re either the kind of person who has a spoon in his hand and goes…

“there is no spoon… who am i and why do i have ice-cream in my hand”… or you are doing all of this on purpose… over and over again in hopes to irritate me, so that i say something a little bit more aggressive, so you guys can report me once again so i get banned once again.

Clever… however i have learned what i can and can not say here so i don’t get banned even if i get reported, and i do get reported quite often… but i guess you already knew that didn’t you.

You don’t have even half the game knowledge required to be giving advice and to be contradicting me, or anyone else for that matter.

For OP… and any new player reading through all of this, all i have to say is that… as you can see there are a lot of “experts” around… so before trusting anyone on anything they claim, EVEN ME, you should ask for proof which back up those claims.

Remember this my friends, always ask for proof… cause you see without a damage meter, anyone can claim anything… and they have…

Last 2 questions for Arantheal the engineer who is giving necromancer advice to everyone.

What is the necromancer’s DPS ?
What is the engineer’s DPS ?

Skoigoth.9238:

Altoid.9104:

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Manually calculating DPS would indeed be the most accurate way to calculate realistic DPS values, but only if, and I mean ONLY IF the sample size is sufficiently big enough to begin with – this means data collected from literally hundreds and hundreds of players.
With the calculations Nemesis did this is clearly not the case. He basically did different and unrelated “case studies” on DPS, which are not an accurate representation of average DPS values of a specific class/build. They might or might not give some indications from which you can draw tentative conclusions from, but that’s about it.

So, to do a proper empirical study on DPS values you would need to collect a kitten-ton of data. Also, this data would need to be collected under strictly monitored, well documented and predetermined parameters, such as 100% repeatable test scenarios. Without the appropriate tools provided by the developer this is simply not feasible and maybe also a liiittle bit too much to ask for when it comes to calculating DPS values in a freakin video game

So what is the next best option? Spreadsheets + common sense and extensive testing. That is perfectly OK and I’m pretty sure that the people making these spreadsheets are well aware of the fact that they are, well, just that. To use Nemesis’ terminology here, “math in a void” to work with because of the lack of better means to support theorycrafting.

Also, gj on derailing yet another topic because of “spreadsheets vs. real DPS”, but it is to late to go back now I guess. Poor OP =/

Derailing ?…

It’s 100% on point… spreadsheets are the reason why people think the necromancer is bad.
But… the spreadsheets don’t reflect reality, reality looks nothing like the spreadsheets because of the mechanics of encounters… so those spreadsheets can’t even be used for comparison reasons.

As i’ve proved in those videos… condition engineer was advertised at 20K… did 9K on mossman, got outDPSes by condition ranger which is “NOT META” because someone said so.
Necromancer was advertised at 14K DPS, i personally did 12K DPS on bloomhunger without having an icebow in party to speed up the kill so that i have a higher % of the fight under timewarp… wich 2 icebows in party my DPS went to 14K because the overall fight was shorter.

Nemesis: “math is fake because it gives achievable values”

Randome people: “no it doesn’t… it’s just that no one has ever seen it, no one has ever proved it and the people who made the math refuse to back it up with video footage”

“besides… math is only used for comparison purposes”

Nemesis: “On paper engineer > necro by a mile… in reality power necro > engineer on targets with light armor with one hand behind my back.”

Yeah… continue believing math, maybe discriminate all guardian players next, or who ever metabattle decide to leave out… i’m sure the thousands of < insert class here > are so going to have fun in GW2 being kicked all the time.

Arantheal.7396:

Altoid.9104:

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier

While manually collecting data on your actual dps gives you 100% real numbers, they will heavily differ from person to person using the same build, ending up in a foggy mess of what has good synergy or not…

Yes, you are right about actual dps being needed to normalize spreadsheet calculations by actual testing, but completely disregarding theoretical build-analyzation, you strip yourself off the ability to make definite statements about the synergy of group-comps, and their performance when switched out with different builds.

If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^

You have seen my videos with your own eyes and you know i do not start the clock at prebuffing… in addition to that I have told you 5 times already that i do not start the clock when buffing starts… i only did it once to show what kind of a DPS loss prebuffing actually is.

You also saw the real DPS values of the world records, which you now claim no one has done… you also saw the real DPS values of icebow and how it carried people at bosses with a large enough hitbox.

I have told you all of these a couple of times already every time you try to contradict me, besides the fact you have seen these facts with your own eyes…
You also have no records, no guides no nothing… you probably never even did any math on your own.

All you do is contradict me with 100% false claims and provide others with misleading information… straight up teaching them bad things with 0 proof to back up anything you claim.

Why isn’t this against regulations ?…

“Providing misleading information nonstop” should be against the rules on this forum.

Here’s a question for you since you are so “happy to help”.

What’s the damage rotation behind the 25K DPS revenant ?
(I bet you are going to look it up right now and make a comeback…)

You have absolutely no idea what’s in those spreadsheets or how they reached those numbers or why… but you continue to make assumption after assumption after assumption…

I think i’m getting a headache again, there’s simply too many “experts” who don’t even have the slightest idea what damage rotation were used in the spreadsheets but they continue to make claims… X is better then Y, this is better then that… you should do this and that…

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

But the people who make the math don’t use it to determine DPS rotations, they first guess a damage rotation based on… aaaa no idea, it’s definitely not based on an encounter because the damage is done on a dummy golem…
THEN… they use that damage rotation + math to advertise “expected DPS” on builds in order to gain popularity.

If it was just to determine the damage rotation, without a hidden agenda for personal gain, there wouldn’t even be “damage spreadsheets”, at all.
… and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations. That amount math calculations would take longer then making the entire build + the voice-over for the guide + editing for YouTube.

So in conclusion… yeah… it could work, like i said in the live podcast yesterday, but they are not doing that are they.

In conclusion, you legitimately have no idea about spreadsheet theorycrafting. You don’t know where the rotations come from, you don’t know that spreadsheets provide the foundation to apply formulas across a variety of information for more complex calculations to enable rotational comparisons, and you don’t know how much people actually enjoy the process of theorycrafting to the point where they’ll spend all the time in the world analyzing optimal everything (gear, rotation, etc.).

You aren’t wrong that people have used the data to decide that Necros are bad, when it most likely is a marginal difference at best unless you’re in a hardcore speedrunning community. You are probably correct in that some read the numbers and think that’s how much damage they are doing, when in fact they don’t even come close. And you’re correct in that context matters when evaluating optimal scenarios, as each boss is different.

However, I’ll never agree that the numbers are “irrelevant”, because they have their use. The game just needs a damage meter to actually collect real data programmatically.

Well my friend, you were very against me until recently… but i see you are willing to see reason, so i will answer you.

Currently gathering footage for my guides since i have decided to create a special segment dedicated to REAL DPS comparisons between builds and classes in various encounters.

So far my upcoming glass cannon has done 14K DPS on Bloomhunger over 27 sec… same build, same rotation, same guy… just 10K DPS on Old Tom… going for ascalonian and flame shaman soon as well.

Brazil / Narc during world record had 9K DPS on Bloomhunger over 27 / 17 sec…
Same build, same comp, same guy, same DPS rotation… Brazil’s DPS in Ascalonian went down to 5K, at legendary champion shaman went down to 2K.

… and this is the turning point where condition builds > power builds, not because the math shows it, but because the mechanics dictate it.

NOW… does the math resemble anything like this ? AT ALL…

All i have seen is 15 to 25K DPS spreadsheets… and we already know that the sinister engineer build advertised at 20K DPS, does just 9K DPS on mossman.

So… tell me my friend… what am i suppose to use those spreadsheets for, when their numbers are unachievable even in the best case scenario: Bloomhunger world records, and in reality the REAL DPS values change dramatically based on the encounter.

PS: Keep it friendly if you want me to continue this discussion, i will not have any of that “you don’t know how spreadsheets work”… especially since i’ve spoken with Brazil many times, and in the beginning when they first started advertising spreadsheets… all the math was done by Dekeeyz, and she never shared her calculations with them… she just gave them the final values…

So they actually had no idea what those values are, or how Dekeeyz got them… talking about “you don’t know how spreadsheets work” when a lot of the people who keep putting up spreadsheets all over the place don’t even know what they are suppose to represent… they don’t even know what kind of damage rotation is supposedly going to give them those values.

This is ridiculous…

Maunzi.3764:

Math is fine as a reference point, Nemesis. The only problem is when you take it as gospel.

I doubt there was a “hidden agenda”, people just prefer easier conclusions. If spreadsheet DPS comes to the conclusion that X>Y, even though X is not achievable in real play, whereas Y is, then the masses WILL often flock to it and call Y terrible. There is no need for hidden agendas there, I’ve made the same experience in other games, too.

It usually changes after a few months to years.

and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations.

Oh, people do. Excel Spreadsheets come easy to those of us that work with that stuff IRL. These calculations do take far less time than you think – I routinely compile far more complex formula in my daily work in less than an hour. Gw2 is relatively easy, math wise.

Have you ever formulated a 30 sec DPS rotation based on math… not the other way around, figure out the rotation then use math to calculate it’s damage ?

Maybe i’m doing something wrong but it is time consuming…

Regardless… If the math is used for figuring out the DPS rotation… why do they calculate that DPS’s rotation damage ?… and why do they advertise that damage ?

It serves no real purpose other then self advertising, and only gets people confused…
Shouldn’t people who are smart enough to calculate everything, smart enough to teach others… already know these things ?

Also… if they knew that the spreadsheet DPS reached the conclusion that X > Y, even though X is not achievable in real play, where as Y is… why didn’t they specify this ?…

Why did they advertised everywhere the “berserker meta” which discriminates entire classes ?
It’s either they knew but did it anyway, or they never knew it in the first place… because they actually believe their own math, they actually believe they have more or less the same DPS everywhere regardless of armor or the mechanics…

… and these people… teach others… and test the raids for ArenaNet.

To answer OP once again, this… my friend… is why everyone thinks necromancers are bad. Because some people who have no idea what’s going on, were teaching others… for a really long time…

Cogbyrn.7283:

The math is relevant when you use it as a reference point to identify which rotation would maximize damage in a particular scenario with a particular build. All data requires analysis, and it’s up to the users of the data that is provided to utilize it properly.

That isn’t the math’s fault. The math is just the math. We shouldn’t abandon the math, which has a use, just because some people are looking for ways to be exclusionary.

But the people who make the math don’t use it to determine DPS rotations, they first guess a damage rotation based on… aaaa no idea, it’s definitely not based on an encounter because the damage is done on a dummy golem…
THEN… they use that damage rotation + math to advertise “expected DPS” on builds in order to gain popularity.

If it was just to determine the damage rotation, without a hidden agenda for personal gain, there wouldn’t even be “damage spreadsheets”, at all.
… and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations. That amount math calculations would take longer then making the entire build + the voice-over for the guide + editing for YouTube.

So in conclusion… yeah… it could work, like i said in the live podcast yesterday, but they are not doing that are they.

Cheby Shev.4671:

“-More violets i say… less violence…” I think we need more youtube video showing how to play necromancer in specific encounters. For example, Brazil did a couple of these not too long ago. I’m always surprised how many PUG necros don’t know what their class is capable of. It’s really ironic when you think about it, but what I learned from playing Warrior was how to swap weapons and utilities for every encounter.

Yes… what i’ve been saying since the beginning, 3 years ago… “there is no best damage build, only best… at…”

Some encounters require bursting builds, others require sustain DPS type builds because they have mechanics which severely cripple bursting potential…
All the math which shows this class does X damage, that class does Y damage is absolutely pointless and irrelevant because it never takes into consideration the actual encounters… and… it gives out values which can’t be achieved not even in the best case scenarios.

I’ve watched as things were getting worse and worse over the course of two years, an unknown % of the community believed you do X amount of damage with the so called “meta” builds… everywhere… and that necromancers and rangers are useless, despite what the developers were saying.

The worst thing i’ve seen was people using 6 icebows, which use to do 80.000 DPS as in 300.000 damage in 3.7 sec ONLY targets with a large hitbox, against legendary flame shaman… they were actually doing 2K DPS OVERALL (since icebow doesn’t work there), half of what condition builds pull just by auto-attacking… and that was considered to be a “speed run”.

Why ?… because “math-in-e-void”, same math which said necromancers are useless and a dozen of other flawed conclusions.

It’s mind-blowing when you think about it… thousands of players playing the game wrong, for almost 2 years.

If i wouldn’t have taken the “high ground” and crushed these delusional ideas in the beginning, we would have had NO “berserker meta”.

Aren.9478:

Spoj and the Nemesis both happily on the same thread, naaaw

Necros have never been dire, rather the “fan” base has always exaggerated the gap between necros and other classes.

Nemesis – it has never been the icebow meta rather it is the YOUTUBE meta

Ohhhh… i see what you did there.

However… after acknowledging the numbers of the HoT launch i’ve come to realize that Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have any commercial YouTube value anymore, therefor i do this on principle.

It was still the icebow meta… none of the records on the record website are achievable without the icebow, in fact none of them are achievable at all anymore because icebow got nerfed.

The worst part is the majority still doesn’t know that, so they will continue to think their poorly played inadequate for the encounter low DPS uptime squishy zerker meleer build… does 20K DPS… until raids hit… then they all get splattered and complain the game is far too hard.

The game must be nerfed until it’s doable with inadequate builds crafted around fake math. Which is weird… because the fake math is all over the place… warrior’s DPS is only 13K in math, where as revenant is 25K… does this mean warrior will now get kicked from groups since revenant also brings buffs ?

So… the game has to be nerfed until it’s doable with 5x squishy 25K DPS berserker melee revenants.
Predictions ?

What the lack of a damage meter can do to a community, it’s mind-blowing.

spoj.9672:

It was like that before. Not so much now.

As i recall… maybe you’ve also seen the video footage of you telling the community that necromancer is inferior to the other classes in terms of DPS, and he also doesn’t bring team support.

Now you say it’s not no longer the case… does that mean reaper is higher DPS then the previous glass cannon ?… Or does it provide that insane team support you guys complained necromancer doesn’t have ?

Or… do you retract the claims you have made to the community in these two years ? Will you also go back on all the trash talking aimed at me in these two years ?…
What about that money you got for MY work ?

I am confused, please explain.

Because a small group of individuals proved that necromancer, damage wise, is inferior to all the other classes… using fake math.

It was not their original intent, merely a side effect in their quest to advertise their builds at 20-25K DPS, damage which can never be achieved… you don’t get even half of that in reality.

Simply put… the fake math or “math-in-e-void” as they call it, gives out the most absurd conclusions like… revenant DPS is 25K, condition engineer is 20K DPS… where as warrior DPS is merely 13K, necromancer is 14K but provides no group support…

When in reality Condition engineer is 9-12K DPS, Warrior DPS is 9-10K DPS (even in world records kills), and i have personally hit 14K DPS with my upcoming glass cannon build… in a pug group.

In conclusion… all the math is 100% fake and irrelevant, who ever says otherwise can prove me wrong with actual footage.

Until that time arrives i am the only person in the entire Guild Wars 2 community who knows the REAL DPS values of the world record runs, of Icebow, and of their so called “meta builds”.

The only reason people even believed such ridiculous claims in the first place was because of the Icebow skill 4: Icestorm spell which has 80K DPS for 3.7 seconds on bosses with a large hitbox, or on any boss if you use the linecasting exploit… this is what actually did the damage of the “berserker meta”, the damage people saw was melting bosses in 4-5 seconds.

Who ever claims otherwise can show us how bosses melt just as fast without icebow, as they did with icebow.
Not to mention the linecasting exploit is now fixed, and icebow got nerfed in half so all previous world records are 100% irrelevant and are no longer obtainable not even by the people who got them the first time.

Basically it was a 2 year long lie, based on fake math and exploits/abusing broken mechanics… supported by people who wanted to get popular in the Guild Wars 2 community.

PS: Necromancer’s biggest flaw was that he couldn’t summon the broken (now fixed) Icebow.
ArenaNet kept saying saying necromancer is fine, and the class never got majorly buffed because in fact, if played properly… it’s more or less the highest DPSer in the game… in reality that is, not in the imaginary world of fake math.

Everything i have just claimed i have backed up with video footage on YouTube, unlike what the others have claimed which they did not provide proof of, despite me personally asking for it… for over 2 years.

Anchoku.8142:

That’s just silly talk. Necromancer will be used to heal and res, if it is used at all.

Reaper ranged damage is horrid. It will try to stay behind the boss and heal/res when not auto attacking. None of its conditions or corruptions will be useful and it will be too squishy to tank full time, though it can do so temporarily.

You base this information on what exactly ?

Son of Urza.1692:

spoj.9672:

[snip]

Its not from the wiki. This has all been calculated from ingame. Some of it matches the wiki some of it doesnt…

And i said i dont have aftercasts for everything. And any input on aftercasts for certain skills would be appreciated. Rather than continueing to be a kitten why dont you tell me all the aftercasts so i can update the data to be completely accurate. Im not trying to decieve people. I want this to be as accurate as possible for mine and others benefit. So please correct any numbers i have.

Only aftercasts i have confirmed are gravedigger spam, greatsword auto, ghastly claws, life blast and dagger auto. I havent checked any single cast skills and i havent confirmed the other auto attacks yet.

I just tested Reaper Shroud autoattack cycle time. First test was 13 full cycles over 29.47 seconds = 2.26s/cycle. Second test was 12 full cycles over 27.05 seconds = 2.25s/cycle. Taking into account that I’m pretty sure my stopwatch timing was not absolutely perfect, this matches well with one of the BWE update notes from Robert Gee saying that RS1 was adjusted to 2.3s/cycle (without Reaper’s Onslaught).

Testing with Reaper’s Onslaught (and Vital Persistence slotted so I could get a longer interrupted test run, forgot that earlier >_>) gave me 35 cycles over 71.72 seconds = 2.05 s/cycle. This also seems to match well; 2.3s untraited / (1.15x attack speed) = 2s traited. I suspect those are the “true” values.

Note that this means that traited RS1 has 1.2 CPS, the same as Greatsword. Add in Dhuumfire supported by Reaper’s Might and this is easily our most damaging autoattack (although camping autoattacks is, of course, not necessarily the best strategy for overall DPS).

Before you jump to conclusions try LichForm at 249.7% critical strike damage and 100% critical strike chance.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Link your videos, along with context around what they are proving. I have no idea where your videos are to even look them up.

I can not do that here, i have been warned… however you can YouTube Nemesis necromancer and you will find my channel easily enough.

I don’t know why you’re trying to make it sound so ominous. You’ve been warned by ANet mods that you can’t post your own youtube video, like everyone else does? If so, that’s ridiculous.

It’s not… and i will not say anything more on the subject since such discussions are not permitted on the official forums.

I have learned my lesson the first time.

PS: I don’t have a signature anymore.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Link your videos, along with context around what they are proving. I have no idea where your videos are to even look them up.

I can not do that here, i have been warned… however you can YouTube Nemesis necromancer and you will find my channel easily enough.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

What i say now is literally nothing compared to what i received back when i was putting out guides. Everything i was saying got ridiculed by these people, Spoj was among them… i even had entire threads dedicated to me.

Unfortunately what I’ve seen of Spoj almost everywhere has been civil. What I’ve seen of you has been sputtering and prideful. Guides are going to be ridiculed. You should be able to back them up, not hold grudges for years.

Nemesis.8593:

Secondly… i was right then, and i am right now…

It’s easy to claim we were right in the past with nothing to support it. Again, pride and ego running rampant. If only you’d tone it down, more people might listen.

Nemesis.8593:

ArenaNet said necromancers are fine, i said necromancers are fine… Spoj, Nike, Sesshi and a few others said necromancers are weak compared to staff ele and condition engineers.

The community would have never believed that in the first place if it wasn’t for the Icebow which was doing all the work for them.

Great, there are two sides to a discussion, so you can point/counter-point. What’s the issue exactly? That the community believe the other side?

Icebow is an ability a class has. If it takes that class above and beyond, that’s legitimate. Again, pride and refuting data because it makes you upset.

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… you really don’t get it. No one ever said “advertised numbers do not match reality” until i made those 2 videos… now they all try to sugar-coat it and go back on their claims.

Without these videos they would have continued pulling out numbers of 20K DPS condition engineer, 25K revenant and so on… which people do believe, despite the fact that Spoj admitted those numbers do not match reality… also he said he never advertised such numbers, even though he did as you saw in the videos.

I bet they did. I can’t trust your word because there’s an incredible amount of bias to your perspective. So much so that I’m inclined to believe the opposite, unfortunately. I don’t want that to be the case, but it is.

Nemesis.8593:

However… as i see it, i think i am too late… It’s going to take people more then year to finally realize they don’t do even half of what was advertised to them, in the best case scenarios… worst case they just die nonstop, have like 1K DPS overall, and blame everyone else.

At least now i can publish a few proper builds in peace without being ridiculed, i don’t think they would dare to trash my work like they did in the past… ever again.

Again, messiah complex and believing yourself infallible. How am I supposed to trust someone with such a heightened sense of self? Whatever your work is, I hope it is scrutinized. Everyone’s work should be. When spoj releases an evaluation of the data he’s collected, along with what rotations he has deemed optimal, I hope it is scrutinized as well. Heavily. I hope everyone takes everything they see and tests it, runs their own calculations, and draws their own conclusions. That’s how it should be done, and that’s how the best players will do it.

MMO communities have hardly ever been able to handle advertised numbers, in any game. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t figure out what our theoretical upper bounds are and how we might achieve them to further our gameplay.

Everything i have claimed is backed up by video proof, you are free to verify it.

Once you discover that anything i have said is false, you can come and disagree with me, until then i have facts backed up with video proof, you have assumptions.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Holy kitten really
They always said in OPTIMAL situations you can reach that, of course in actual encounters mileage will vary, how is that a difficult concept to grasp

No… it’s not even in OPTIMAL situation… it’s actually NEVER.

Now… please write what you just wrote to me, to every single one of the people who argue with me and continue to claim sinister engineer and staff elementalist does 20K DPS.

Also google Obal revenant build, and write that in the comment section of his newly 25K DPS revenant video… in which you can actually hear him say the words “you do 15K DPS just by auto-attacking”.

Thank you.

PS:
Engineer “optimal” DPS = 20K / Necromancer “optimal” DPS = 14K
Engineer REAL DPS = 9-11K / Necromancer REAL DPS = 12-14K

Now… let’s exclude all necromancers from “teh meta”, for two years, based on math.
Or… let’s all go squishy melee zerkers vs “heavy armor deadly AoE whirlwind attacking” boss… based on math.

I wonder how they will ever show you actually need a tank/support in some situations with the math… i’m curious…