Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

Just a little hint. Calculating damage* uptime comes after actually determining the optimal skills and builds to use. Im not at that stage.

I just explicitly said what im doing here is to determine whether skills are worth using in a rotation. So i honestly dont know why you are being a kitten about it.

The only thing that math in a void can determine is the value of a skill in a damage rotation, is it worth it to press it… or is it worth it to just auto-attack instead.

This is what i said im doing….

Btw ive never calculated dps for engineer or most classes. And whenever i do necro i list all assumptions. Like i said im not trying to deceive anyone.

No… DPS uptime comes from the mechanics of the fight.

Example:
If you are a squishy melee zerker, and the boss does a deadly whirlwind chain attack for 5 seconds, you break DPS for 5+ seconds or you die.

That’s a 5 sec DPS loss every X amount of seconds for melee only.
Or… you alter build to compensate with invulnerability effects which may or may not be suficient
Or… you have a tank-healer with you to provide DPS uptime
Or… you can play condition builds to compensate for those mechanics

Everything i have said here is situational based on the encounter.

Now… if you wish to put into math the… let’s say Ascalonian fractal fight ?… Also include the DPS uptime loss by cornerstacking squishy builds, instead of noncornerstacking proper builds… by all means…

I personally don’t know anyone who possesses the math knowledge capable of calculating all of those 50.000 variables to account for all encounters in the game (per build)… so that you end up with exact % estimates of fights.

Example:

You do this X (max) DPS, IF a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h = true => X DPS is achievable 0.00234% of the time.
You do this Y (min) DPS, IF a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h = not true => Y DPS is achievable 100% of the time.
+ all the in between values.

Yes… this math i would believe… anything else confuses more then helps…

You honestly want another 2 years in which a few classes will get constantly discriminated ?

Not to mention if you take math-build builds into raids… you mind as well go afk cause it will be the same thing.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Spoj is trying to evaluate our abilities to determine what the most effective rotation might be. Nemesis, you’re just spitting in people’s faces. And please stop using “… for free…” in your posts. It makes you sound like you want to be some sort of sleezy salesman who nickel and dimes everyone for any service provided.

I also wouldn’t trust you to add up the numbers properly, anyway. At this point, based on your demeanor, I honestly believe you would fudge the numbers just to make someone look bad. Objectivity is at the heart of good data analysis, and you have a personal vendetta against some people.

I personally have an inkling Necro will carve out a niche in raids once the content releases and people start to get creative. However, what Spoj is doing is also interesting and important. Anything that helps you better understand a class is cool and should be shared.

You don’t have to agree with anything. But if you disagree, you can do it constructively. Steer the discussion in the proper direction, ensuring people know that rotations should often be more considered priority lists of abilities, as moving in a fight can disrupt a strict rotation based on cooldowns. You can help identify what the optimal rotation is, then show empirically with your videos what the “real DPS” of that would be, if you want to avoid doing a mathematical calculation of optimal DPS. Demonstrate what a rotation against a dummy looks like, then maybe highlight how that might change in a fight with dodging/melee-hate phases, etc.

That is, of course, if you care that much about Necro. If you only care about trying to make others look bad, you’ll just keep doing what you’re doing, hating on every thread you can find, even when someone just tries to pipe up with something people can get their hands on and work with to draw their own conclusions.

What i say now is literally nothing compared to what i received back when i was putting out guides. Everything i was saying got ridiculed by these people, Spoj was among them… i even had entire threads dedicated to me.

Secondly… i was right then, and i am right now…

ArenaNet said necromancers are fine, i said necromancers are fine… Spoj, Nike, Sesshi and a few others said necromancers are weak compared to staff ele and condition engineers.

The community would have never believed that in the first place if it wasn’t for the Icebow which was doing all the work for them.

My friend… you really don’t get it. No one ever said “advertised numbers do not match reality” until i made those 2 videos… now they all try to sugar-coat it and go back on their claims.

Without these videos they would have continued pulling out numbers of 20K DPS condition engineer, 25K revenant and so on… which people do believe, despite the fact that Spoj admitted those numbers do not match reality… also he said he never advertised such numbers, even though he did as you saw in the videos.

Until this point no one ever had reason to question the fact that sinister engineer or staff elementalist does 20K DPS… especially since no one knew the real HP value of bosses…

However… as i see it, i think i am too late… It’s going to take people more then year to finally realize they don’t do even half of what was advertised to them, in the best case scenarios… worst case they just die nonstop, have like 1K DPS overall, and blame everyone else.

At least now i can publish a few proper builds in peace without being ridiculed, i don’t think they would dare to trash my work like they did in the past… ever again.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis, every post you make is destructive and serves only to try to undermine someone else.

If you want to disprove them, try doing it constructively. Show us what you’re doing and how you’re doing it. Everything you have ever said has required me to take your word for it, from your ability to calculate DPS on videos to your claims of “REAL DPS” numbers. Honestly, I have no reason to trust you, and won’t until you make more of an effort to contribute instead of undermine.

Destructive ?… You want me to agree with fake numbers or ?…

To anyone who has ever disagreed with me on the topic i said the following:
“show me your best footage, and i will calculate its DPS for you, for free… live on twitch”

If they have nothing to hide why hasn’t anyone taken me up on my offer yet ?…

My proof is online for everyone to check, i even let the full fights in with the combat log turned on… anyone who wishes to verify my work is free to do so.
I have absolutely nothing to hide.

However… the people who disagree with me on the matter, don’t even want to provide plays so that I can do the work for them… for free… it’s because they know none of their claimed DPS comes even close to reality… and even knowing that, they still continue on with fake numbers…

“Show us what you’re doing and how you’re doing it”
Really want to see a video in which i add numbers for 25 minutes with my glasses on ?

I hope i won’t hear you guys say raids are too difficult when they come out, i know more then half the community will try to attack the bosses as if they are target dummies so that they do 25K DPS on Revenant… as DnT Obal advertised…

spoj.9672:

Nemesis.8593:

spoj.9672:

Been working on some calculations to work out optimal rotations etc. Heres some of the stuff so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flyI2qHv704UUVYqIJeuo6IzY_J0gXAT623eMY38twI/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has correct aftercasts for skills, that input would be much appreciated.

You continue to teach people to play the game based on math in a void which is 100% fake an irrelevant, instead of in game mechanics… even though you actually recently admitted your numbers do not reflect reality.

I already saw the “heavy armor” legendary champion wipe out an entire zerg of melee berserkers at Mordremoth chain events, and merely 2-3 seconds later you had at least 20-30 people complaining that this boss is wayyyy too hard.

Your calculations you and your friends do will ruin raids, people will use improper builds for the raids… do 2K REAL DPS… die… complain to nerf content until it can be done with your bad fake math builds.

Stop.

snip

Nemesis. How else are we supposed to determine the best builds and the best skills to use in a rotation if we dont use math to confirm value for cast time? Math in a void has its use. Its the same use ive always advocated it for; theorycrafting the optimum. Reality doesnt match. But you still want to use the same skills you worked out as the best and math is important in determining that. Guessing based on the numbers you see has no value. Because that does not accurately take into account cast times, aftercasts and cooldowns.

Ive already made some interesting discoveries with this data. Which i never would have worked out by guessing…

And i havent even started plugging in stats and determining whether secondary effects like poison, burn, lifesteal and chill shift the optimum in unexpected ways.

Figured out how to account for DPS uptime in math yet ?… Because it differs from encounter to encounter, and build to build. Claiming 100% DPS uptime is just one of the groundbreaking flaws of math in a void.

The “heavy armor” legendary champion proved that easy…

Simply put math in a void will NEVER… EVER… show that condition builds > power builds, even though based on the mechanics of certain fights i can auto-attack a condition build and do more DPS then a full berserker played at Brazil’s skill level with a premade group.

Raids are coming… math in a void will get people killed…

2nd thing math in a void doesn’t take into consideration is melee vs range dodge cycles.
1 dodge = 1 sec DPS downtime (+1 sec repositioning melee only)
With vigor on you can dodge 5 times in 30 sec, if you do dodge 5 times in 30 sec you lose between 5 to 10 seconds of DPS uptime… that’s a 15-30% DPS loss for melee only.

Of course on paper melee DPS is higher then ranged DPS… exactly to compensate for the danger of being in melee… otherwise NO ONE… would EVER play melee.
Why go squishy melee when you can be safe at range and have more DPS.

And there is so much more math in a void never takes into consideration…

That’s why you end up with numbers like 20K DPS engineer… that in reality does like 9K DPS.

The only thing that math in a void can determine is the value of a skill in a damage rotation, is it worth it to press it… or is it worth it to just auto-attack instead.

That’s all… no comparison between builds… and definitely no real DPS…

CastIron.7364:

spoj.9672:

Been working on some calculations to work out optimal rotations etc. Heres some of the stuff so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flyI2qHv704UUVYqIJeuo6IzY_J0gXAT623eMY38twI/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has correct aftercasts for skills, that input would be much appreciated.

Appreciate your efforts. Thanks for putting in the time.

This info is from wiki… and wiki can be wrong at times, not to mention that the information from the wiki is gathered from GW2 tooltips… which sometimes were also inaccurate, especially after the release of an expansion.

Basically unverified information taken from somewhere else… and no aftercast…

Raids are going to be fun.

spoj.9672:

Been working on some calculations to work out optimal rotations etc. Heres some of the stuff so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flyI2qHv704UUVYqIJeuo6IzY_J0gXAT623eMY38twI/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has correct aftercasts for skills, that input would be much appreciated.

You continue to teach people to play the game based on math in a void which is 100% fake an irrelevant, instead of in game mechanics… even though you actually recently admitted your numbers do not reflect reality.

I already saw the “heavy armor” legendary champion wipe out an entire zerg of melee berserkers at Mordremoth chain events, and merely 2-3 seconds later you had at least 20-30 people complaining that this boss is wayyyy too hard.

Your calculations you and your friends do will ruin raids, people will use improper builds for the raids… do 2K REAL DPS… die… complain to nerf content until it can be done with your bad fake math builds.

Stop.

Edit: the mere fact we are in a “is necromancer DPS viable” thread is proof enough that you and you friends actually manage to make the community think necromancer has low DPS compared to a warrior, elementalist and so on… and has no range DPS.

Range bursting type DPS = Lich Form – i hit 16K each hit and i can do almost 3 hits by the time a 1x 100B skill is done… which means the 100B hit has to be 48K and he has to do… how many of them in a row with no CD to match it ?… Not to mention the safety of that range…

Range sustain type DPS = hybrid… average ~ 5 – 9K REAL DPS, about as much as a berzerker warrior gets on bloomhunger… but then again you only bring sustain DPS in fights where you need sustain and not burst, and in those fights bursting type builds fall short… really short…

Ascalonian – berserker warrior drops from 9-10K to ~ 5K
Vulcanic – bserker warrior drops from 9-10K to ~ 2K

I can outdps them with a sustain build by auto-attacking…

Math is 100% meaningless… mechanics > all.

STOP.

Quarktastic.1027:

BoogerSammich.7189:

Quarktastic.1027:

BoogerSammich.7189:

dace.8019:

Exos.3472:

And I cried… and cried… (20k dps)

Don’t fear the Reaper.

Yep, it pretty much went on like that for the last 50%.

25K GRAVE DIGGARZ!!!!!!!
kitten I love reaper.

25k gravediggers still only puts you at ~12.5k DPS….Which is leagues behind sinister engi or zerker ele. Hell, I think that’s barely on par with ranger DPS.

Still, reaper is tanky enough to unload more perfect rotations in real situations (i.e. where your target is actually trying to kill you) than eles, engis, or rangers.

Reaper is not going to become the next meta profession or anything, but it’s fun as hell and I’m enjoying it.

Oh, you have a DPS meter?
AWESOME! can i get it?

Gravedigger, with aftercast, has a ~2 second cycle time, assuming you never miss and put it on full cooldown. Divide 25k by 2.

Sinister engineers can output 18-21k dps with perfect rotations, and berserker eles can output similar numbers.

You don’t really need a DPS meter when math exists. But all those numbers are only in theoretical situations where you’re essentially hitting a punching bag. In real situations, where there’s no such thing as a perfect rotation, the gap is much smaller, but there’s still a gap.

DPS isn’t the only measure of a profession’s usefulness either. Engineers and eles provide a great deal more group support than reapers, while still having better DPS. That’s why necromancers have never been “meta.” After all, why take a profession like a necromancer, when you can take one that is objectively better?

It does not put out 18-21K DPS… neither do elementalists. Anyone who says otherwise can direct me to the video proof, and i will calculate the DPS for you guys live on twitch.

The mystical 20K DPS condition engineer and berserker elementalist, which no one has ever seen for over 2 years… since they were “advertised” to the community.

Even Nike and Spoj, the ones who created the math in a void calculations in the first place, recently admitted the math-in-e-void numbers do not match reality after i’ve put them on the spot nonstop for a few days.

Btw… an unknown % of the calculations come from DeKeyz, and as Brazil has told me from his time with DnT… she gave them the numbers, never showed them the math… so a lot of the people who advertise these numbers have no idea how they got them in the first place, that’s why they never answer questions… it’s not their calculations, so they can’t explain how they reached those conclusions.

Like i said… if anyone wishes to show proof to back up claimed numbers, i will do the work for them, for free… and calculate the REAL DPS values.

This offer remains open… indefinitely…

PS: all void calculations are irrelevant regardless if they match reality or not, they can’t even be trusted to make comparisons between builds.

http://9gag.com/gag/a1YBEM6 this gifs explains everything in a few seconds…

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Nemesis.8593:

Besides the nerf to the required HP to unlock the full specialization… i’ve just been to the 2nd HP challenge only to discover that it too has been modified… the champion which was suppose to spawn is now just a veteran.

If the contents gets systematically nerfed, people will rush through it… and one month from now they will complain they will not have any content to play. Furthermore there will be a far greater gap between raids… and the new open world content, unless of course raids will be nerfed into the ground as well… in which case i really do not see a future for this game.

I have soloed 90% of all HP champions so far… with two players it should be no problem what so ever.

Heart of Thorns has been amazing so far, don’t take it away from us… please… stahp…

/beg

They are tuning content based on patterns. The game is only becoming better and more approachable as a result. Monday was a horrible time to be in game on Verdant Brink. Today with the tuning and fix the mega-server I feel like I’m finally playing it as intended and it’s awesome. Tuning is a a normal phase post launch for MMOs.

But really, why do you care? You got your reward as your herded though the gate at launch then decided to stay in game from god knows how many hours blasting through new content… The problem is the hardcore community in GW2 seems to be hell bent on turning it into another trash “me first” grind fest MMO and you’ve all collectively failed. ArenaNet is holding to the original tenants of their manifesto.

Let me explain something to you about casual gamers. We are big gem store spenders. We have lives outside the game because we prefer winning and being “me first” in life instead of always accomplishing that in a game world. GW2 has always been the “MMO for everyone” there is still plenty of hardcore content, but you’re not going to steal the game away from the large causal and simi-causal base who love it just as much as you do and probably spend more in the cash shop to support the company.

If you want an MMO that leans heavy on rewarding only the hardcore crowd there are plenty of great options.

The number one flaw, the thing that every single YouTube, spokesmen or reviewing website said was that the game has “no end game”.
End game by default doesn’t presume something which can be finished within a month… casually…

1 Month casual means 1 week for hardcore players… but that’s besides the point, after that one month… everyone casual or hardcore will say “where’s the end game ?”

Their original manifesto was no grind… dungeons that are so casual that you can finish it in 5 minutes… generates… the biggest grind-fest possible.
WoW at its peak was not casual friendly in their end game… that way both casual or hardcore player always had a goal to keep him busy for months, until the next expansion.

I understand you want to finish everything casually in a month… then what ?… Grind ?…

Ever heard the saying “the harder the journey… the sweeter the reward”, it’s foundation is in psychology, if you try really hard at something… when you finally succeed your brain gets filled with endorphin’s and other chemicals and generates pleasure, as a reward for your effort.

Simply put… pure casual… doesn’t work… Guild Wars 2 before HoT was proof of that.

Valen.3649:

Hello guys,

I am returning to this game after over a year of pause, at which time I know necro was pretty much garbage and was not taken for many dungeons, much less for speedruns and high end record runs. I heard from a friend that necromancer was somewhat buffed now and was interested whether there are dps builds for PVE now that are within max. 5% range of the best overall dps from other classes and if one no longer has to be ashamed of not being an ele or warrior.

If yes, I would greatly appreciate a link or short describtion of that build, and if no, perhaps what other class I should be looking for. I adore ranged dps and hate tanking, prefering other people to be bludgeoned to death while i safely wait at a great distance throwing out spells and occasionally roll out of an aoe effect. I have no issues with complex rotations though I am not above cheesing stuff and playing with 1-2 buttons.

I have little to no interest in PVP, some WvW ability would be nice but not necessary.

The necromancer was never garbage… people were just using bad builds.
Necromancer’s only flaw was that he wasn’t able to summon Icebows.

spoj.9672:

I dont advertise calculated dps numbers as practical in real fights. How many times do I have to point that out? Ive been saying calculations dont match reality for over 2 years. So i dont know what you are trying to accuse me of. You are taking quotes out of context, making wild assumptions and putting words in my mouth.

And as i pointed out in the other thread. Even if dps values dont match reality. Then can still be used to compare dps differences. That was the basis for me saying dagger was better than DS. Dagger 1 provides significanlty better coefficient per second than DS 1. There are many variables which effect damage uptime. But its not hard to maintain good enough uptime to beat DS in a decent group. And DS doesnt even have that great uptime due to lifeforce management and certain encounters.

No my friend, i… have been saying that claimed DPS doesn’t match reality for over 2 years… you and your elitists friends ridiculed me for saying that, don’t be sneaky now…

But ok… you finally admit your advertised numbers do not match reality.

Last thing.
Did you… or did you not claim your builds are superior then my “inferior” builds ?

Xae Isareth.1364:

Nemesis.8593:

RS 1 is a melee AoE spell and even with higher AS it still has lower overall DPS then DS 1 which is ranged.
Someone decided to add dhuumfire to an AoE spell and use it for single target… as a meleer… instead of having higher DPS at the safety of range.

Can you show how the hell did you come to that conclusion. Even just looking at pure coefficients, DS 1 has a c/s of at most 1.0, which is about the same as RS 1 even without Reaper’s Onslaught.

Then if you add in factors such as (as far as I know) DS still uses the weapon strength of your equipped weapon and RS’s faster attack rate procing more traits, RS blows it out of the water.

The only argument you can make is that DS is ranged, but that’s like saying thieves have higher DPS with a pistol because daggers are melee.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I just did a quick check. With onsalught, I’m getting a total attack chain time of 2.075. Round up or down as you see fit. With no gear equipped, this comes to a raw tooltip DPS of (235 + 235 + 469) about 438. The sword auto attack does 469 raw tooltip DPS (391 + 469 + 547 over 3 seconds), and the dagger does 473 raw tooltip DPS.

Did you pull the cast times from the wiki? Because the 2.5s stated is out of date on there. BWE 3 reduced the aftercast by 0.2s and the wiki hasn’t updated yet.

In other words, dagger/GS/RS w/ RO all have the same DPS.

I must admit… i put my trust in the tooltip and WIKI for the AS, but there were tooltip errors in the past. I also don’t know the aftercast for for RS1…

But… as you can see it’s 1/2 AS each hit with a 3x attack chain… which is 1.5 sec without aftercast for RS1… vs 1 sec AS for DS1… depending on the aftercast of RS1, it may mean that RS1 damage at the end of the chain has to be higher then DS1 by up to 50% to be equal.

Now… first two attacks from RS1 seem to scale at less then half of what DS1 scales at… only the last hit in the chain comes even close to DS1 scaling at *1.2… compare to DS1’s 1.4 across the board.

All in all… my DS1 hits safely on average 10-12Ks… RS1 chain has to hit 17K-18Ks to topple it…
Now i’ve watched Brazil’s Bloomhunger run as full zerker reaper and i saw 3Ks+ 3Ks+ 6-7Ks+… totally at 13K-14K… not 17K…

+ melee DPS downtime.

Note:
Max dodge usage = 15-30% flat out DPS loss in a 30 sec fight.
1 dodge = 1 sec (+1 sec re-positioning which is optional…)

spoj.9672:

Do you not see the hilarity of using a vagure reference of a quote and a completely unrelated video (they were at different times) as evidence to discredit me as completely ridiculous?

You are one funny guy Nemesis.

By the way that video was partially just to show some big hits. But the main reason i even recorded and uploaded was just to test my recording and upload speed. And like i said before. You cant quote a number which i stated was calculated under optimal circumstances and compare it to a real fight with suboptimal circumstances.

If they were both optimal circumtances you might have a small point. But then id just say the calculation was done as a comparison against a dummy it has never been to declare actual real dps in a fight. I have never claimed vacuum dps values occur in real fights. Ive never seen anyone else claim that either. Some may have worded things poorly. But its on you for misunderstanding. And shame on you for nitpicking just to make a very weak point and stir up drama.

Let’s forget the countless times you insulted me without provocation, with things like “no one should take him seriously”, “avoid watching his videos if you want to keep your mental health”, or the fact you got paid for my work…

I’ll keep this simple.

1. Did you… or did you not claim your builds are superior to mine ? Backing up your claims with math you showed the community ?

2. Give me your recent plays so i can add all the real DPS values, to see if it matches your advertised numbers… or did you already agreed to the fact that your advertised numbers do not reflect reality ? One must be sure… especially since Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.
I have people emailing me saying they quit the game because of how much they got kicked as a necromancer, and seeing my recent videos brought “a tear to my eyes”.

So yeah… one must be 100% sure since people tend to change their opinion about what really happened more often then they change their socks.

spoj.9672:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for the one who came up with the build, hard to say. I played a part, spoj played a part, I think Bawb played a part, too.

It was part of the theory crafting that we were going through. On a shroud focused reaper (spite/soul reaping/reaper), the reaper is capable of stacking 25 vulnerability and 25 might by himself. This leads to a bit of an issue regarding the grandmaster trait in soul reaping. Decimate Defenses makes Deathly Perception obsolete. Foot in the grave, while being a very nice utility on its own, isn’t always necessary. The end choice was Dhuumfire.

At maximum might, a zerker reaper hits for about 248 per tick. Last time I did any calculations, a reaper’s onslaught boosted auto attack had about the same DPS as the greatsword auto attack… before factoring in Burning. I’ll do a quick check…

I just did a quick check. With onsalught, I’m getting a total attack chain time of 2.075. Round up or down as you see fit. With no gear equipped, this comes to a raw tooltip DPS of (235 + 235 + 469) about 438. The sword auto attack does 469 raw tooltip DPS (391 + 469 + 547 over 3 seconds), and the dagger does 473 raw tooltip DPS.

I call it “raw” because it doesn’t include anything else. No might/vuln/chill/life force generation. Just the basic numbers. From this, you can see that sword auto attack is roughly the same as the dagger auto attack, while also being about 7% higher than the Reaper Shroud auto attack. Now, we can acquire a few things from this. In particular, how much effective power you’ll need for Sword Auto to do more damage than Shroud Auto:

Each Shroud Auto chain stacks 3 × 3 / 2 stack of burning, coming to about 4.5 stacks sustained. This is 1,115 additional DPS. We can find the point where the 7.077% ,difference in direct damage between sword auto and shroud auto is equivalent to 1,115 DPS. First, we take the tooltip difference between greatsword auto and dagger auto (31), then divide 1,115 by it (to get 36). This is the scalar multiple that needs to be applied to direct damage. Direct damage scales linearly with power, so at 2000 power you’ll be doing twice the tooltip damage (in our case, 62 extra damage). So, since 1,115 is 36 times larger than 31, we will need 36,000 effective power.

Effective power here is your power after taking into account all multipliers. Sigils, rune bonuses, might, crit damage, vulnerability, group buffs, etc. To put it into scale, I’m not sure the necromancer can get higher than 20k effective power. Heck, I just did a quick calculation on my zerker necro, and without group buffs I’m maxing out at 14,178 effective power. Special note here, vulnerability affects the burn damage as well, so you can disregard it in the “how much power will I need” calculation for this particular case.

This means that, with reapers onslaught and dhuumfire, Shroud Auto Attack has higher DPS than the Greatsword and Dagger Auto Attacks. Now, is this the best DPS rotation? Good question. I never compared anything other than auto attacks. If there is a rotation that I don’t know about that does more damage, but neither involves nor can’t be improved upon by Reaper Dhuumfire, let me know. If I’ve made a mistake in my calculations, let me know.

EDIT: Side Note: gravedigger might need a buff. I just timed it, and I am getting 2.5 second total activation times. This puts it at exactly as much damage as auto attacking. This was only a quick check, though.

That is in theory my friend…

Using theory Spoj claimed 13.4K DPS on his dagger 1 build, without timewarp or minions… yet when i calculated his real DPS at the Arah Wraithlord fight (which is really really easy fight btw) he was around 7K.

Math… does not match… reality.

Anyway… i didn’t have high hopes for the expansion, but they actually manage to create something amazing… and now they are systematically destroying it with all these nerfs.

They just nerfed the entire Verdant Brink map… if they continue at this rate, the entire content will be finished in a month even by casual players… then the same players who cried “too hard OMG” will cry “OMG no end game, you suk ArenaNet” and then move on… just like last time.

I think this is it… if history repeats its self, there is no way ArenaNet can come back a second time from it.

How did you calculate his DPS? With math, or using a reliable meter? How reliable has the meterms proven to be, and what tests wereally performed to ensure accuracy?

He took an ancient video of mine where I had no ascended, suboptimal sigils/consumables and was only a quick recording of a casual run to demonstrate some big crits on dagger. It was also before ferocity nerf btw. So I’m not really sure how that counts as a credible counter arguement to a calculation I made a long time ago with maxed out buff assumptions and no dodging….

At the time you claimed 13.4K DPS… you were hitting 6Ks, ascended or not… you claimed that, but did half in reality… and you blame it on “casual play” even though as you said, it was before the ferocity nerf, and as i saw it you only dodged once or twice in the entire fight, not to mention you recently said… and i quote “his DPS uptime and math is contagious… avoid watching his videos if you want to keep your mental health”… for no reason, you didn’t knew i would go after you for getting paid for my work and for lieing about your DPS, you just like to trash me in general… like you did for the last 2 years.

Just how casual do you have to be in a premade to have HALF the advertised damage… i did a fractal pug run and i was pushing 12-14K DPS at Bloomhunger…

Also the part with “suboptimal sigils/consumables”… as if i will believe that… you said multiple times the only build needed is the dagger 1 build in any and all encounters, which is far superior then anything i have.
So… you make your one build to rule them all… calculate it’s DPS at 13.4K… then for some reason drop that gear, take on bad gear… and make a “casual” run, which is so “casual” that you end up having half the advertised DPS… and upload it to YouTube, because… of course you would do that.

Right then… no problem… give me some recent footage of your plays… i will do the work and calculate your DPS, for free…

What do you say… are you going to prove your claimed DPS, or do you already know it was a lie all along, just so you get to say “my builds are superior to Nemesis” another 200 more times ?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for the one who came up with the build, hard to say. I played a part, spoj played a part, I think Bawb played a part, too.

It was part of the theory crafting that we were going through. On a shroud focused reaper (spite/soul reaping/reaper), the reaper is capable of stacking 25 vulnerability and 25 might by himself. This leads to a bit of an issue regarding the grandmaster trait in soul reaping. Decimate Defenses makes Deathly Perception obsolete. Foot in the grave, while being a very nice utility on its own, isn’t always necessary. The end choice was Dhuumfire.

At maximum might, a zerker reaper hits for about 248 per tick. Last time I did any calculations, a reaper’s onslaught boosted auto attack had about the same DPS as the greatsword auto attack… before factoring in Burning. I’ll do a quick check…

I just did a quick check. With onsalught, I’m getting a total attack chain time of 2.075. Round up or down as you see fit. With no gear equipped, this comes to a raw tooltip DPS of (235 + 235 + 469) about 438. The sword auto attack does 469 raw tooltip DPS (391 + 469 + 547 over 3 seconds), and the dagger does 473 raw tooltip DPS.

I call it “raw” because it doesn’t include anything else. No might/vuln/chill/life force generation. Just the basic numbers. From this, you can see that sword auto attack is roughly the same as the dagger auto attack, while also being about 7% higher than the Reaper Shroud auto attack. Now, we can acquire a few things from this. In particular, how much effective power you’ll need for Sword Auto to do more damage than Shroud Auto:

Each Shroud Auto chain stacks 3 × 3 / 2 stack of burning, coming to about 4.5 stacks sustained. This is 1,115 additional DPS. We can find the point where the 7.077% ,difference in direct damage between sword auto and shroud auto is equivalent to 1,115 DPS. First, we take the tooltip difference between greatsword auto and dagger auto (31), then divide 1,115 by it (to get 36). This is the scalar multiple that needs to be applied to direct damage. Direct damage scales linearly with power, so at 2000 power you’ll be doing twice the tooltip damage (in our case, 62 extra damage). So, since 1,115 is 36 times larger than 31, we will need 36,000 effective power.

Effective power here is your power after taking into account all multipliers. Sigils, rune bonuses, might, crit damage, vulnerability, group buffs, etc. To put it into scale, I’m not sure the necromancer can get higher than 20k effective power. Heck, I just did a quick calculation on my zerker necro, and without group buffs I’m maxing out at 14,178 effective power. Special note here, vulnerability affects the burn damage as well, so you can disregard it in the “how much power will I need” calculation for this particular case.

This means that, with reapers onslaught and dhuumfire, Shroud Auto Attack has higher DPS than the Greatsword and Dagger Auto Attacks. Now, is this the best DPS rotation? Good question. I never compared anything other than auto attacks. If there is a rotation that I don’t know about that does more damage, but neither involves nor can’t be improved upon by Reaper Dhuumfire, let me know. If I’ve made a mistake in my calculations, let me know.

EDIT: Side Note: gravedigger might need a buff. I just timed it, and I am getting 2.5 second total activation times. This puts it at exactly as much damage as auto attacking. This was only a quick check, though.

That is in theory my friend…

Using theory Spoj claimed 13.4K DPS on his dagger 1 build, without timewarp or minions… yet when i calculated his real DPS at the Arah Wraithlord fight (which is really really easy fight btw) he was around 7K.

Math… does not match… reality.

Anyway… i didn’t have high hopes for the expansion, but they actually manage to create something amazing… and now they are systematically destroying it with all these nerfs.

They just nerfed the entire Verdant Brink map… if they continue at this rate, the entire content will be finished in a month even by casual players… then the same players who cried “too hard OMG” will cry “OMG no end game, you suk ArenaNet” and then move on… just like last time.

I think this is it… if history repeats its self, there is no way ArenaNet can come back a second time from it.

How did you calculate his DPS? With math, or using a reliable meter? How reliable has the meterms proven to be, and what tests wereally performed to ensure accuracy?

I manually added all the damage, divided by the duration of the fight starting from the first hit… ending with the last…

Yes… i’m just that crazy…

Khristophoros.7194:

Nemesis.8593:

Khristophoros.7194:

It adds more damage than Death Perception.

Either way, the answer is to share your builds and explain how they work. Maybe your builds are better than the zerker builds.

RS 1 is a melee AoE spell and even with higher AS it still has lower overall DPS then DS 1 which is ranged.
Someone decided to add dhuumfire to an AoE spell and use it for single target… as a meleer… instead of having higher DPS at the safety of range.

Someone else said “it’s definitely worth it… with quickness i saw burns tick up to 3K”. That means people are going to waste the quickness buff on RS 1 burns, in a zerker build… instead of using it to buff their Lich Form, which can hit 17K each hit… and has lower AS then 1 sec.

In conclusion… people do less damage, and are in more danger which translates in lower DPS uptime… and they are already thinking that in fact they do more, which is the reason why they are defending the build.

Metabattle… right… by all means… the people that keep trolling me for trying to help them can go ahead and play ineffectively if that is their wish.

I think Dhuumfire adds more damage than Death Perception even for regular DS though.

But ok, if you’re saying glass cannon reaper isn’t good because it’s too squishy for melee, that’s a different discussion. Regarding that, there’s no reason to go full zerk reaper when you could go full valk.

Burning doesn’t scale with the stats obtained from the items… but DS1 does…
Compare +2K burns on RS1 with 16K hitting Lichform… there is no contest…

leftyboy.9358:

The contents have only been nerfed on hero points. I promise, you still have years of grind in different aspects of the game. Please recognize that not everyone wants to go through all the new maps with old specs. There are also tons of champs still around plus raids inc, and fractals to 100.

For a group that said anyone who wanted hero points reduced for elites were whining, crying, babies, and just plain bad…you sure have a lot of cry in you as well.

Tyria has not ended.

Exactly… nerfing stuff will make it trivial and it will turn into a grindfest… like people doing CoF p1 10000 times (i know the guy who claimed he did that, although i am not sure it is possible… ).

Also… being involved with YouTube and social media for so long i kind of know the numbers… and the numbers don’t look good at all…

I honestly don’t know where they are getting the money to continue, Heart of Thorns has to be big…

Metacritic score is already 7.7…

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for the one who came up with the build, hard to say. I played a part, spoj played a part, I think Bawb played a part, too.

It was part of the theory crafting that we were going through. On a shroud focused reaper (spite/soul reaping/reaper), the reaper is capable of stacking 25 vulnerability and 25 might by himself. This leads to a bit of an issue regarding the grandmaster trait in soul reaping. Decimate Defenses makes Deathly Perception obsolete. Foot in the grave, while being a very nice utility on its own, isn’t always necessary. The end choice was Dhuumfire.

At maximum might, a zerker reaper hits for about 248 per tick. Last time I did any calculations, a reaper’s onslaught boosted auto attack had about the same DPS as the greatsword auto attack… before factoring in Burning. I’ll do a quick check…

I just did a quick check. With onsalught, I’m getting a total attack chain time of 2.075. Round up or down as you see fit. With no gear equipped, this comes to a raw tooltip DPS of (235 + 235 + 469) about 438. The sword auto attack does 469 raw tooltip DPS (391 + 469 + 547 over 3 seconds), and the dagger does 473 raw tooltip DPS.

I call it “raw” because it doesn’t include anything else. No might/vuln/chill/life force generation. Just the basic numbers. From this, you can see that sword auto attack is roughly the same as the dagger auto attack, while also being about 7% higher than the Reaper Shroud auto attack. Now, we can acquire a few things from this. In particular, how much effective power you’ll need for Sword Auto to do more damage than Shroud Auto:

Each Shroud Auto chain stacks 3 × 3 / 2 stack of burning, coming to about 4.5 stacks sustained. This is 1,115 additional DPS. We can find the point where the 7.077% ,difference in direct damage between sword auto and shroud auto is equivalent to 1,115 DPS. First, we take the tooltip difference between greatsword auto and dagger auto (31), then divide 1,115 by it (to get 36). This is the scalar multiple that needs to be applied to direct damage. Direct damage scales linearly with power, so at 2000 power you’ll be doing twice the tooltip damage (in our case, 62 extra damage). So, since 1,115 is 36 times larger than 31, we will need 36,000 effective power.

Effective power here is your power after taking into account all multipliers. Sigils, rune bonuses, might, crit damage, vulnerability, group buffs, etc. To put it into scale, I’m not sure the necromancer can get higher than 20k effective power. Heck, I just did a quick calculation on my zerker necro, and without group buffs I’m maxing out at 14,178 effective power. Special note here, vulnerability affects the burn damage as well, so you can disregard it in the “how much power will I need” calculation for this particular case.

This means that, with reapers onslaught and dhuumfire, Shroud Auto Attack has higher DPS than the Greatsword and Dagger Auto Attacks. Now, is this the best DPS rotation? Good question. I never compared anything other than auto attacks. If there is a rotation that I don’t know about that does more damage, but neither involves nor can’t be improved upon by Reaper Dhuumfire, let me know. If I’ve made a mistake in my calculations, let me know.

EDIT: Side Note: gravedigger might need a buff. I just timed it, and I am getting 2.5 second total activation times. This puts it at exactly as much damage as auto attacking. This was only a quick check, though.

That is in theory my friend…

Using theory Spoj claimed 13.4K DPS on his dagger 1 build, without timewarp or minions… yet when i calculated his real DPS at the Arah Wraithlord fight (which is really really easy fight btw) he was around 7K.

Math… does not match… reality.

Anyway… i didn’t have high hopes for the expansion, but they actually manage to create something amazing… and now they are systematically destroying it with all these nerfs.

They just nerfed the entire Verdant Brink map… if they continue at this rate, the entire content will be finished in a month even by casual players… then the same players who cried “too hard OMG” will cry “OMG no end game, you suk ArenaNet” and then move on… just like last time.

I think this is it… if history repeats its self, there is no way ArenaNet can come back a second time from it.

“The nerfs don’t make this game worth the money”.

http://imgur.com/150oL6m

I didn’t have high hopes for the expansion, but they actually manage to create something amazing… and now they are systematically destroying it with all these nerfs.

They just nerfed the entire Verdant Brink map… if they continue at this rate, the entire content will be finished in a month even by casual players… then the same players who cried “too hard OMG” will cry “OMG no end game, you suk ArenaNet” and then move on… just like last time.

I think this is it… if history repeats its self, there is no way ArenaNet can come back a second time from it.

Healix.5819:

Hero challenges should be solo tests of skill similar to the Queen’s Gauntlet. They should have never been group events. After all, they’re not called heroes challenges and besides, there’s no challenge in a group.

They should have kept the mastery requirements though. There was no need to nerf that and reduce the cost.

I totally agree… however you can’t stop people from grouping up… so mind as well make it a challenge.
If you do make it instance based a lot of players will never get them… or… they will seem to easy to more experienced players.

I am also disappointed by this decision. If they give in to the pressure people will once again finish everything extremely quick then complain there is no content and leave the game.

It’s going to take some time for people to transition from the “icebow 4 kill all” mindset into this proper content, but ArenaNet has to wait it out… otherwise this game has no future.

Khristophoros.7194:

It adds more damage than Death Perception.

Either way, the answer is to share your builds and explain how they work. Maybe your builds are better than the zerker builds.

RS 1 is a melee AoE spell and even with higher AS it still has lower overall DPS then DS 1 which is ranged.
Someone decided to add dhuumfire to an AoE spell and use it for single target… as a meleer… instead of having higher DPS at the safety of range.

Someone else said “it’s definitely worth it… with quickness i saw burns tick up to 3K”. That means people are going to waste the quickness buff on RS 1 burns, in a zerker build… instead of using it to buff their Lich Form, which can hit 17K each hit… and has lower AS then 1 sec.

In conclusion… people do less damage, and are in more danger which translates in lower DPS uptime… and they are already thinking that in fact they do more, which is the reason why they are defending the build.

Metabattle… right… by all means… the people that keep trolling me for trying to help them can go ahead and play ineffectively if that is their wish.

silvermember.8941:

Nemesis.8593:

Actually… i think i’ll keep some information to myself for a while…

Why not make it a permanent thing?

Well… a lot of people are waiting for builds from me, and you can always not read my posts.
Btw… i like your signature

Actually… i think i’ll keep some information to myself for a while…

I would seriously like to know who made the necromancer power build with Dhuumfire in it, that has no condition duration… and utilizes berserker gear.

This is the exact reason why i still published those two videos… even though it was far later then i originally wanted and brought me no profit what so ever.
Here we go again, exactly like last time… people who have no idea about real DPS numbers, the difference between DS 1 and RS 1 based on AS, and so on… continue teaching the community.

When people told me just now there’s a PvE berserker reaper power build with dhuumfire in it on metabattle we all laughed, and i thought they were just trolling me…

I just saw it… i’m speechless…

Well… what can i say… it will just make the builds that i will publish that much more awesome, so at least there’s that.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Nemesis.8593:

EDIT: LavaFont + Fireball you said ?…

Lavafont has 4 sec channeling duration… + aftercast (which i will ignore since i’m to lazy to calculate the value of)
Fireball has “Attack speed is 1 attack per 1.4 seconds.” – source wiki.

SO… 16K DPS… how do we do this ?… don’t know the exact ratios because i played ele for 3 hours in my entire life, so i will assume… Lavafont hits/sec as much as fireball…

8K DPS from fireball + 8K DPS from lavafont = 16K DPS

Fireball has 1.4 sec AS… => each fireball hit has to be of 11K.
Lavafont is a 4 sec channeling ability and… “The damage listed is the total damage, not per pulse.” – source wiki => Lavafont has to hit for 8K x4 as in 32K.

Conclusions: you will do 16K DPS IF and only IF… you hit 11k fireballs and 32K lavafonts… or higher fireballs and lower lavafonts, or higher lavafonts and lower fireballs… which ever.

Is this how you do all your calculations? You are calculating exact damage of all individual players from a single PoV on youtube and doing this? And I for some reason thought that you had actual numbers to back this up…

As if i will ever find footage of an elementalist that doesn’t use the Icebow… and even if i do you trolls will say “cherry picked data” like you do with “world records”.

I said enough.

Last chance… take your favorite elementalist build, go in a fight of your choosing… record your footage and i will add the numbers for free… if you don’t do it it means you actually know i was right all along and you’re just trolling, in which case i will report you.

Where is Spoj, Bawb and Flow now ?… Look at the extend of the damage that has been done to the community, with the your elitists fake math.

Poor guys fear that the Reaper will be nerfed… my god…

It’s going to take at least half a year for people to understand just where necromancer stands in terms of damage vs the other classes.

chunx.9521:

Please, we don’t need anymore of these threads. The only reason a lot of us feel Reaper is really strong right now is because we are mainly all necromancer mains who haven’t experienced what it’s like to be powerful by playing other classes. Because necromancer was so bad before, now reaper feels so strong. The reality is that it is great solo, but is still mediocre in group damage when fully buffed, and still offers no team support.

Additionally, if everyone proclaims that “reaper is so strong” and “please don’t nerf,” a nerf is going to happen because of all the awareness and public sentiment that seems to falsely conclude that reaper is relatively stronger than other classes (especially other elite specializations).

It’s called the Streisand Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect) whereby by bringing attention to something you don’t want, you make it more likely to happen. It also sort of explains the mechanism behind “there is no such thing as bad publicity”. Regardless of if reaper is strong or deserving a nerf or not, all these posts that keep implying that a nerf wouldn’t be unreasonable (such as this one) will precisely perpetuate that sentiment and in time lead to a nerf if sentiment is strong enough.

I know by posting here, I’m bumping up this thread, but I’m hoping that anyone who genuinely does not want reaper nerfed (because it seriously does not need to be) will read this comment and refrain from bring any more attention this this (non)issue and let the topic and thread die.

Reaper has lower damage the previous necromancer builds. ArenaNet will not nerf it.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

At the moment everyone thinks reaper was a huge damage boost for the necromancer, which was sorely needed… hahahaha…

This is hilarious… i have no idea who fooled the community again…
Imagine… people might be using glass reapers instead of the previous glass cannons, thinking it’s superior damage… hahahaha…

Well, i haven’t seen many people running reaper so far.

I use it because it’s new and, anyway i’m just surfing the new maps, not maxing my dps.

And because it makes new open world content easy: drop wells —> gravedigger --> loot. (add the gs#4 if you fear you might get stuneed, and do some damage in reaper shroud before gravedigging if the enemy has a big health pool)

But yeah, it looks lackluster. If you can stand in a single spot casting slow attacks without taking any damage, why not use a thief instead?

Currently exploring Auric Basin… and i see a lot of corpses around, and this is just open world… wait till raids…
The Reaper was designed for the upcoming hard content.

For the old content the old necromancer was more then enough… people just didn’t knew about it because… elitists…

arclight.1287:

I have played a power necromancer quite a bit before the expansion (in PVE, PvP and WvW).

But for years us necros have been getting kicked out of dungeon runs because we played necro, excluded from fractals and generally shunned by the greater GW2 community.

Now that I have Reaper unlocked I feel like an instrument of Death ready to unleash myself upon the world! Out for vengance against all those who have wronged me!

Not having ever played other PVE behemoth classes such as warrior or elementalist I don’t know whether being able to actually ‘kill mobs’ using “attacks” is a bug or if this is what it’s been like for other classes since the game was released years ago.

Seeing all those damage notifications and big numbers now is extremely satisfying, it almost makes me feel a little bit dirty and bad for all the NPCs and other players that will be crushed underneath my Scythe.

There are times where I slaughter entire groups of mobs and I stop and think to myself, “Is this real life?” Then I come to the realization that… I AM DEATH!

The elitists who thought the community to kick necromancers are now saying “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Secondly… they won’t nerf the reaper because it actually has a bit lower damage then regular necromancer builds.

Third… none of the “advertised damage values” that the elitists gave the community are real, not one… and now that i have exposed all their lies they even try to go back on their word saying “well no one actually believed these numbers, this was merely theoretical”.

In conclusion… necromancer was always fine… just a few individuals decided to exclude it from their unrealistic “meta”, which they created using fake math and exploits in order to gain popularity.
Everything people think they know about damage in guild wars 2… is actually a lie.

PS: do you mind if i quote you OP, in the other thread ? This is hilarious…

Check out “Nemesis part II got delayed ?” when you have the time, it’s pretty good fun… and if you want to know what really happened feel free to check out my channel, last 2 videos, your mind will be blown i guarantee it…

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Nemesis.8593:

If you don’t stop trolling i will report you…

Go ahead. That’s one of the ways to end the argument if you disagree with someone.

Nemesis.8593:

you do realize that when i troll baited you elitists

So all this was a bait then? All this was made just to bait some people in calling you names? So YOU are the one trolling here? Confused.

Nemesis.8593:

i got footage of most of you saying “staff ele does 16K DPS without icebow or timewarp”… maybe even you said that.

20>16. ~16k is what you can get if you are fully buffed and can land auto + lava font on an average boss that has vulnerability. Just a warning. It may not work if you are doing it solo on a pvp golems.

Nemesis.8593:

Enough lies… have some dignity.

Feel free to correct me. If i lied somewhere it was not intentional.

Nemesis.8593:

… and if you’re trying to appear as if you agree with me now, it’s too late for that, you guys had 2 years to agree with me, but instead chose to discredit everything i was saying.

As people say “Nemesis has some good points”. I (and pretty much everyone who played the game a lot or has a necro main) agree than necro with a proper build has good damage. Thing is (and it what everyone keeps telling you) that necro lacks (mostly fixed with reaper) group support. I agree that pugs should get their facts straight before deciding who is bad and who is not.
I disagree that you should compare Celsius to Fahrenheit (dps calculations based on usual situations and spreadsheets vs dps calculations you get based on 2-3 bosses). I disagree that you should act like a youtube comment section on a bad day to prove your point. I disagree that build creators should babysit every single player. I disagree that intentionally taking 1 number out of context and then plugging it literally in every single post and then call people liars is OK.
Oh and I am not with “them”. My only connection with “those guys” is that I sometimes use their builds and rotations and tweak them to my preferences.

You just said “16K is what you can get… with staff elementalist”…

Now… the video clearly showed that the NON icebow-carrier party members had on average ~ 12761 DPS… that’s zerker guardian, zerker elementalist, zerker thief and a second zerker warrior, on bloomhunger (which has lite armor)… with TIMEWARP… in a premade group…

Now… Brazil’s DPS went from 9561 at Bloomhunger to only 5K something in Ascalon… to 1.8K in Vulcanic…
The other players would suffer a downscale as well…

For you to have 16K DPS on a elementalist, you have to have lower the 1 sec skills that hits 16K each time in order to compensate for the aftercast.

If you use a 2 sec channeling skill it has to hit for 32K… for every 1 second you dodge you have to hit the next second double of a 16K once again to compensate for that dodge… + gameplay mechanics such as “power invulnerability shield, teleport, stealth” and so on… which all effect your DPS.

Do you really not see how insane your 16K DPS claims are ?

Tell you what… take your favorite elementalist build, go in a fight of your choosing… record that fight, and i will add all the damage for you… free of charge…

Do that… or stop trolling, because i will report you for trolling… there’s no way someone is this dumb unless he is trolling.

PS: Those 16K elementalist claims were without timewarp… with timewarp people expect 20Ks as the flowchart clearly showed… i didn’t make that chart…

EDIT: LavaFont + Fireball you said ?…

Lavafont has 4 sec channeling duration… + aftercast (which i will ignore since i’m to lazy to calculate the value of)
Fireball has “Attack speed is 1 attack per 1.4 seconds.” – source wiki.

SO… 16K DPS… how do we do this ?… don’t know the exact ratios because i played ele for 3 hours in my entire life, so i will assume… Lavafont hits/sec as much as fireball…

8K DPS from fireball + 8K DPS from lavafont = 16K DPS

Fireball has 1.4 sec AS… => each fireball hit has to be of 11K.
Lavafont is a 4 sec channeling ability and… “The damage listed is the total damage, not per pulse.” – source wiki => Lavafont has to hit for 8K x4 as in 32K.

Conclusions: you will do 16K DPS IF and only IF… you hit 11k fireballs and 32K lavafonts… or higher fireballs and lower lavafonts, or higher lavafonts and lower fireballs… which ever.

ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR MINDS ?
Stop talking now.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Nemesis.8593:

Reaper was not suppose to give the necromancer more DPS then it already had for single target, that would be ridiculous. We can go up to 12-13K as it is, in a 30+ sec fight… “support” warriors stop at 9K…

Was a common knowledge for a veeeery long time.

Nemesis.8593:

It will take a long quite some time before people come to the realisation that no one was doing 20K DPS… except for Icebows on large hitbox bosses… Icebows which are now gone…

Same with this. I don’t remember anyone publicly claiming to do 20k dps without an icebow.

Nemesis.8593:

I’m still surprised how many people thought they were doing 20K DPS… not even burst… but DPS. Even if you can BURST 20K DPS… you guys do realize WvW would have turned into a FPS game where everyone has sniper weapons right ?

How many thought that they were doing 20k dps? It is very common for some classes to burst 20k+ but it is very impractical in WvW since players can dodge and you need to be full glass to do that.

Nemesis.8593:

I will say this again… they lied… their “advertised DPS” is not real. Some of them even said “only morons actually believed us when we said we do 20K DPS”.

20k dps 40+ step engi rotation in perfect world was never advertised as something anyone can do all the time everywhere. Hell this rotation was never actually demonstrated or recommended. People use simplified version of it.

If you don’t stop trolling i will report you… you do realize that when i troll baited you elitists, i got footage of most of you saying “staff ele does 16K DPS without icebow or timewarp”… maybe even you said that.

Enough lies… have some dignity.

… and if you’re trying to appear as if you agree with me now, it’s too late for that, you guys had 2 years to agree with me, but instead chose to discredit everything i was saying.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So does anyone have any actual numbers, with proof about new reaper builds?

Pre-HoT my condition reaper was getting 7k dps with food, utilities, and self buffing only.

Proof: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Wow-we-do-terrible-dps/page/3#post5606619

I want to test this again with my reaper condition build, but i’ve been busy with HoT so it will probably be a few more weeks.

If you actually want real results then use a dps meter. There are plenty of completely legal ones out there for personal dps.

Reaper was not suppose to give the necromancer more DPS then it already had for single target, that would be ridiculous. We can go up to 12-13K as it is, in a 30+ sec fight… “support” warriors stop at 9K…

It will take a long quite some time before people come to the realisation that no one was doing 20K DPS… except for Icebows on large hitbox bosses… Icebows which are now gone…

I’m still surprised how many people thought they were doing 20K DPS… not even burst… but DPS. Even if you can BURST 20K DPS… you guys do realize WvW would have turned into a FPS game where everyone has sniper weapons right ?

You guys would be 1 shooting each other left and right… would actually be hilarious.

I will say this again… they lied… their “advertised DPS” is not real. Some of them even said “only morons actually believed us when we said we do 20K DPS”.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nemesis.8593:

Substatic.6958:

Do people actually kick Reapers now though?

Not yet… but they still drop Icebows… and prefer to stick to old meta composition.

They will start again once they realize that power reaper is fact weaker then the previous power necromancer glass build.
At the moment everyone thinks reaper was a huge damage boost for the necromancer, which was sorely needed… hahahaha…

This is hilarious… i have no idea who fooled the community again…
Imagine… people might be using glass reapers instead of the previous glass cannons, thinking it’s superior damage… hahahaha…

To me, it feels like a slight boost in damage. You’re so awfully focused on DPS only, why? DPS is one third of the trinity in this game, support and CC being the other two thirds; it burns through breakbars, finally has stability on a skill which is easily accessible, can destroy projectiles and has an expanding blind field. On top of that, we finally got a weapon with five man cleave as opposed to single target/two man cleave. Admittedly, five-man cleave doesn’t matter much on bosses, but it does matter a lot in fractals (where you often fight trash) and we don’t know if it’s going to have any major importance in raids yet. Possibly helpful in open world too, especially if you like to pull groups of mobs together to burn them down.

Oh and also, Deep Freeze on icebow is still a helpful asset if there’s nothing else to put on the Ele’s bar since guess what, breaking the bar stuns bosses for 5s which is extremely useful; if you manage to keep them as stunlocked as possible, that helps your team’s dps too since they need to dodge less and can just unload on the boss. Again, stop thinking about DPS only, there’s more to it.

So many people living in denial.
If someone else than Nemesis had come up with all the data Nemesis has provided people would be more likely to absorb it.
Stop hating the preacher and listen to the words he’s preaching.

The elitists have ruined the GW2 community and the HoT forum section is proof of it. EVERYONE is expecting to run zerker everywhere in PvE. Now look at all the whine posts about how hard the new HoT areas are because they all just end up getting pounded while knocked down. You’ve tricked even bad players into using the most ridicules build possible because of your silly meta.
Sadly such a small minority of players are so toxic to the community and they’re actually going to create nerfs to the game.
People with influence should be showing people other options of how to play, not focus on this ridicules zerker mentality.

Translation: “Look at those people who mindlessly copied a build and don’t even know what the dodge button is for, now they’re getting wrecked in new content where they don’t know how to deal with enemies yet.” <- This is exactly how it actually is. If people don’t adapt and take time to see what an enemy can do, they’re getting destroyed. Don’t blame the build creators for this. They advertise their builds as the most efficient ones, which is true as shorter fights reduce the room for error and additionally result in faster clear times if you don’t mess up. It’s not the fault of the build or the creator if the person behind the screen can’t play it/doesn’t know what to make out of it. Shifting the blame is a really bad thing, you know. But I guess that’s what people can do best.

Do you know that various Speedrun guilds did runs with all kinds of messed up specs for kittens and giggles, then uploaded them? I think there’s an Arah 5x Cleric Staff Guard run and I know for sure there’s a 5x MM Necro Arah p3 run because the uploader of the video was like “you gotta see this, it’s hilarious when we fight Lupi” (and it was because he healed for so much in phase 3 lmao) etc. – There’s lots of silly stuff and other ways to play, but in the end, speedrun guilds (as the name suggests) are the most interested in being efficient and making the most out of their class. There’s lofs of people who make video guides for builds, just search and you’ll find them. Besides, I never heard of any “respectable” speedrun guild member trying to legitimately force pure DPS-stats on anyone; if at all, they mention it as the best option and give sound reasons for why it is the best to pick in PvE, even without numbers backing it up (because really, that wouldn’t be necessary)

I agree with you my friend… DPS is not all there is (and i have said that for years btw), there are dozens of variabless… which their “math-in-e-void” didn’t take into consideration, as you saw i explained in the videos… but beyond that… their advertised DPS still doesn’t matched real DPS not even in the best case scenarios… such as Bloomhunger world records.

As for the second part… i have proved in great detail… that their “effectiveness” was due to Icebow and it only worked on bosses with a large hitbox… or everywhere “with the linecasting exploit” which almost no one does because it takes a lot to set up.

So the old zerker meta was extremely strong vs Bloomhunger, Dredge boss and maybe Mossman… that’s it… yet people were running it everywhere oblivious to the fact that they don’t do 20K DPS, they are actually pew pewing with a skill which pew pews on bosses without a large hitbox.

Their entire meta was based on a broken mechanic which works without exploiting only half the time… they took advantage of that to advertise unobtainable DPS numbers on their “meta” builds backed up with 100% fake math, in order to gain popularity.

This… aggressive “berserker” crusade, over a period of two years, has led to the most misled gaming community in history, as you can now see for yourself in the HoT subforums.

I got into Heart of Thorns only later then everyone else since i was still busy finishing up the meta videos… but… i just want to say… it is absolutely amazing, so far.

This is coming from someone who didn’t like the original Guild Wars 2 that much, i only stayed in the game for it’s amazing build system.

In my opinion… voice acting went from “meh…” to “above average”.
Story has improved significantly.
The graphic quality seems have increased as well, but most importantly there is a huge improvement to the Guild Wars 2 artstyle… it’s absolutely amazing… and the soundtrack does fit the game and provide an atmosphere this time.

After 15 years of gaming… i rarely stop and stare at the environment even in single players games, and HoT got me to do this 5 times already…

And last but definitely not least… the build system went from “that’s so awesome” to “OMG”. I’m not sure if people have figured it out yet… but the diversity and play options based on encounters, and just how unique each playstyle is… makes the Guild Wars 2 build system, without a doubt… the best build system out there.

Thank you ArenaNet.

PS: We finally have content which provides a bit of challenge… ohhh i’m enjoying this so much.

Substatic.6958:

Do people actually kick Reapers now though?

Not yet… but they still drop Icebows… and prefer to stick to old meta composition.

They will start again once they realize that power reaper is fact weaker then the previous power necromancer glass build.
At the moment everyone thinks reaper was a huge damage boost for the necromancer, which was sorely needed… hahahaha…

This is hilarious… i have no idea who fooled the community again…
Imagine… people might be using glass reapers instead of the previous glass cannons, thinking it’s superior damage… hahahaha…

I have found a merchant who sells the ascended viper recipe… but he seems to be teleporting between places and he also requires exalted influence.

I will record her next time i see her…

TheLastNobody.8319:

Can we please just delete this thread already! It serves no purpose! Do I seriously need to bomb it?

It’s theorycrafting aimed at finding out real DPS numbers.

I know who you are mate… i’ve seen you in comment section a lot, usually trash talking which would explain why you want a thread which discusses real DPS deleted.

spoj.9672:

Math doesnt lie. Taking the math out of context and using it for purposes it wasnt calculated for would obviously cause discrepencies.

The dps values calculated were just assumptions of perfect rotations, no dodging, 2600 armour foes and max buffs. This was to provide a consistent comparison between classes. It doesnt matter if the real values are lower. The relative differences between classes is mostly the same. And the math provides you with the easiest and most effective way of gaging that.

It was never the math which pushed a narrow set of builds. It was the simple fact that they were the most effective. And people like to be efficient. There are many reasons for that mindset. Limited play time, better rewards for time, improving yourself by pushing for better times. The math was only used to try and work out relative differences in effectiveness. Its necessary to establish an understanding in this way.

It wasnt until math started getting used that people started optimising away from warriors and heading towards eles and then further to that changing the ele builds for certain situations. But dps is only a fraction of true efficiency. Which is why record runs have mesmers and other lower dps classes….

Not a single value any of you ever pulled out matches the reality… ever…
Your math is so all over the place that you can’t even scale it, so all the conclusions are wrong as well.

The math never accounts for ANY mechanics of any encounter, doesn’t account for armor which effects only power builds, doesn’t account for range vs melee DPS uptime… all of which totally change the outcome.
The math is 100% fake and pointless… it gives out nothing but false information… it’s utterly unusable.

Now… you just said “the math does not lie”.

Are you ok ? I know you like to discredit & troll me in general, maybe even put your name on my work… but… i think you’re pushing towards insanity atm, you should stop now.

AngryBear.8741:

Let me just say I got involved into this out of pure curiosity. I am playing PvP and WvW 90% of my time so PvE situation, especially high level Fractals, is completely unknown to me. However, I know that Necros are considered to be bad and I know that people make LFG messages like “no necros” and I know players are being kicked from the parties just because they play certain profession that didn’t find its place among those builds/characters considered to be meta. Those things are fact, so denying it is a bit foolish and pointless.

So, we have Nemesis who challenges that kind of thinking and that makes me curious enough to investigate. On the other hand we obviously have group of people doing record runs which gives them the right to defend their claims about optimal way to do things. That is why I keep suggesting way to end this debate and show if meta is really so much better and more efficient that everything other than that is pure waste of time so that those not part of the meta deserve to be kicked.

However, going into this I have found one seriously disturbing thing (have in mind I am not supporting either side in this conflict). There is site which most people visit in search for builds (I am not sure I am allowed to name it, but you know which site it is). So, on that site each class has very few builds that are considered to be meta (usually 1-3). So, and this comes from purely WvW point of view, if you have build that is meta, are you taking into account other party members and their builds? If you have optimal party setup where each member has optimal build, doesn’t that mean that such builds are made just for that party setup and no other party setup?

To clarify what I mean: Let’s say there is meta build for WvW warrior. That build is posted on that mentioned site and community (large part of it that doesn’t know to make their own builds and figure out synergies) will just take that build for granted and force all warriors to run it inside their team. However, stop and think a bit about synergies. What if purpose of that warrior is to provide cc (just giving an example for conversation’s sake), but to be efficient, it has to have guardians running other build supporting the warrior. You also must have ele with water fields because you still need those heals. So, for that warrior build to be effective, you must complete it with builds for other members in the team. Ok, so let’s say that your team setup to work requires 7 guardians. Now, what if for any given reason in the world you don’t have 7 guardians in the team (3 of them got sick (players) and can’t play, it happens). Do you still keep on using that warrior meta build even though your group composition has to change which means that things you are suppose to be getting from some members are now impossible to get?

I don’t know about you, but I would definitely have to adapt to new composition, instead of stubbornly force meta builds even though some other setup, in that new situation, would be for sure more efficient.

Let’s give just another example. So far every Reaper build (based on shroud) has mandatory Unyielding Blast trait (applies vulnerability on auto attack in shroud). So, if I was to go for that build upvoted by the community to be “the best” and let’s say that I am member of a team with 7 reapers, does that mean all 7 should run that trait? Seven people to maintain 25 stacks of vuln? Really?

So, what does that mean? That means that in such situation meta build is actually less effective than some other build which would change that trait for something else (not necessarily trait from same line, but maybe completely different build that provides something else). You don’t need 7 people maintaining 25 stacks of vuln. At least 3 of those are better of doing something else so they must have build of their own that provides something else for the team. So, then we have 2 meta builds? Ok, but let’s take that 2nd build we made to complete 1st setup and put it another setup where there are no 7 reapers but only 1 next to you. That build would then be suboptimal because in that situation you would need the 1st one.

So, what I am trying to show is that every single build depends on the situation, party composition and player’s skill that is using that build. There is no meta build because every build out there when put into different environment other than the one originally intended for will stop being the most efficient way to do anything.

Consequences of this are that you cannot make site where you will put certain amount of builds and call them a meta and create idea in people’s minds that those builds are somehow the best for their class. Even if you write “THIS BUILD IS ONLY FOR LEVEL 50 FRACTALS!!!!!!!” you are still forgetting to mention that such build is optimal ONLY in certain party setup where ALL other members are running their meta builds that complement your build. That further means that you can have different composition which would use different builds but in such way to best complement that particular composition which would create another meta builds setup and so on and so on.

The way things are currently presented to the community through that site is damaging, it limits people’s creativity, it creates toxisity and makes gaming really uncomfortable for certain people who really like to play certain classes that are being excluded and in the end it conveys incomplete information for the consumer. So, regarding that I agree with Nemesis when he says that there is no “best build”, there is only “best at”.

I completely agree with what you have said. However… there is a little thing to add.
The icebow > all on bosses with a large hitbox & the icebow > all if you used the linecasting exploit (even bosses with a small hitbox).

Now… because people saw Bloomhunger going down like it was made out of paper, they assumed “advertised DPS is right”… and the reason the others bosses die slower is because their HP is higher.
But that is not the case… Bloomhunger is actually the highest HP boss in fractals as far as i’ve seen, Bloomhunger and the Archdiviner both go over 2 mil.

So… even the “broken icebow with/without linecasting” meta was performing extremely poorly in more then half the fractals.
It was performing very well only on Bloomhunger, Dredge Fractal, Mossman if frozen, Asura fractal since there are multiples… because the mechanics crippled icebow, unless you used the linecasting exploit… which most people didn’t… as you’ve seen in the Flame Shaman’s case, the entire team’s DPS was 16.000, even with 6x icebows, before icebow was nerfed in half.

In conclusion… people were forced into inadequate builds for the encounter, people were kicked on false premise, players were blaming each other for failing to meet unrealistic expectations… and so on… an all around very toxic environment.

Why ?… because a few people wanted to be PRO, and get some views on YouTube.

Now… if people don’t realize that they never did 20K DPS… that the icebow was doing all that damage and only on bosses with a large hitbox… they will keep the meta for another… god knows how many years.

I’ve done fractals recently… people still use the icebow, even though it doesn’t do anything anymore.
People still kick necromancers even though there was no reason to ever kick them… a necromancer can pick up an Icebow just as good as any other player.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K…

You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely.

Now… you appear here again as if nothing happened.

Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened.

It takes a special kind of < >, to be able to act that way… after everything… i’ll give you guys that much.

“Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec. "

Nike said in the video linked below within the first minute of the video the following: Assuming perfect or near perfect rotations this is the highest sustained DPS build in the game in PvE.

He even says only with perfect or near perfect rotations! And you act like he says in all situations this build will be the highest DPS build in the game. This is a outright LIE.

“Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K… "

I’ve said this over and over again. “Math in a void” is used to show DPS comparisons between builds, no one was saying in a real fight you would be doing this all the time.

“You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely. "

Where did he say that dagger 1 in every situation was better? Give me a link to where he says that, until then, your again, lying.

“Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”. "

Of course some idiots are kicking necros. That doesn’t mean that Nike and Spoj and everyone who runs the meta is doing that. You see a few idiots doing it and then act as if everyone running the meta is like that. Kinda similar to something called racism, eh?

“It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened. "

Mind giving the proof that’s two links away then?

EDIT: forgot the link, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

EDIT 2:

“Did you just call all the people i showed in my “fractal LFG” which said “zerker ele or kick, NO NECRO” morons ?

You just called half the community morons… for believing what you guys were teaching them.

mind = blown"

A: Glad you somehow have statistics saying half the community do that, mind linking me to where you got those statistics?
B: Necro is less efficient, but overall it’s not going to slow down a casual tour that much. That’s pretty much what we have been saying, and you somehow take that as never ever take a necro in a tour?

EDIT 3:

“The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.”

Linecasting is banned for world records.

“You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.”

Average DPS per player. Lol. I hope you realize not every player accounts for 20% of the damage done right? At this point your making at best educated guesses at the times of a bloomhunger world record without Icebows.

EDIT 4 ( lol ):

“It is not “average of 20K DPS” as advertised, that was a straight up lie… unless you take out all the ramp-up time and just say for example… “sinister engineer does 20K DPS… in the 34, 35, and 36 second of the fight…” which is straight up pure insanity, and serves no real purpose other then to fool the community for personal gain.
Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ? You guys keep blowing my mind with how much you really understand about the game.”

The 20K DPS is over a 30 second fight with perfect rotations. I don’t know how much damage it does “on average”, but who was saying it would do 20K DPS on average? Again, a link is needed or no one said that.

“Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ?”

It’s not bases on peak DPS. Its a 30 second rotation. That’s hardly its peak DPS lol.

Besides the fact that this person tries to make it seem like no one was insta-kicking necromancers for two years now, as if there aren’t 130.000 google search results to “the necromancer is bad”… as if video proof is not 2 links away…

You guys can also notice he says “engineer DPS is 20K over 30 seconds with perfect rotation…”

My friend… the people you are now defending, by twisting my words… just called you an idiot. I believe flow or bawb said “only idiots believe engineer actually does 20K DPS”.

So… mmmm… you’re defending the ones who created the meta, which now go back on their statements saying “only idiots actually believe that”.

I don’t know what else to say to you, you’re like… owning yourself… i don’t understand this…

PS: Most of the things you said are 100% wrong btw, like the videos literally… showed proof Icebow was still OP even without linecasting on bosses with a large hitbox, and on bosses with a small hitbox it was useless without linecasting… that’s why the zerker meta worked only on bloomhunger, and in the rest of the fractals people were actually pewpewing while thinking they do 15-20K DPS as they were thought…

The videos literally show how many people said “your builds have been proved to be inferior…”, even though they were always superior… Spoj got paid for my work, the work he discredited… bahhh it’s in the videos which you probably don’t even understand.

Long story short: everything you said is 100% wrong, the videos show incontestable proof of that, not going to bother repeating what you can clearly see with your own eyes in the videos.

I don’t understand why do you even bother writing so much trying to convince ME… of something that is false, in the same thread which has MY videos which shows that i know all the real numbers…

I’m… going to go back enjoying some HoT now… this level of… i don’t even have a word for it, is… disturbing…
It’s like you’re trying to convince me a rock is actually water, while i hold the rock in my hand.

flow.6043:

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Or they just don’t want to bother trying to have a meaningful discussion with someone who’s behaving like a child throwing a tantrum.
Again, if you want people to take you seriously you have to drop this pointlessly resentful attitude.

Nemesis.8593:

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

I’ll explain it for you again, so you get it as well this time:

In that engi video Nike says the following things:

1. it’s a build for dungeons and fractals, and it would be most effective in lvl 80 instances against targets with high hp.

2. After 14 seconds the damage exceeds the sustained damage of a zerker engi.

3. It can reach up to 20k dps.

Any normal person will conclude the following:
There’s a ramp up time for conditions, then after a while you will do more damage per second than a zerker engi, not an average damage including the ramp up but the damage per second after those initial 14 seconds or whatever. Also, under the right circumstances, in the right group with the right buffs against the right target, you can get up to 20k dps. That’s not an average damage, as in all damage done devided by the duration of the fight, no, this is peak damage that you can expect to maintain for a shorter duration during the encounter.

Nemesis reaction: this engi says he’s doing 20k dps at all times against all targets, always?! That’s a lie! Also, that means that everyone else has been lying as well, and I was always right. Suck it, people! And apologize while you’re at it.

You haven’t added a single real DPS value in your entire life and you “explain” things to me. Cute…

It is not “average of 20K DPS” as advertised, that was a straight up lie… unless you take out all the ramp-up time and just say for example… “sinister engineer does 20K DPS… in the 34, 35, and 36 second of the fight…” which is straight up pure insanity, and serves no real purpose other then to fool the community for personal gain.
Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ? You guys keep blowing my mind with how much you really understand about the game.

You either know all these facts and you are trolling me, or you don’t… in which case it means you don’t have a basic understand of math, which means there’s a high chance i just wasted time explaining basic math to a very young person who hasn’t reached that level of math in school.

What am i even doing here…

PS: You know there are laws against “fake advertising” which state that if the “real value” is under 50% of the “advertised value” in 90% of cases… the advertiser won’t have a very fun time.

Well in my country at least, not sure about the rest of the world. That’s how a lot of internet companies got some massive fines, since they advertised internet up to “1GB/s” even though half the time the internet was so bad you couldn’t even load google… like 1 MB/s.

It’s textbook false advertising… literally textbook false advertising.

I got ridiculed and discredited for 2 years, by people who false advertised… and they also ruined the community… now everyone thinks they do 20K DPS while they pewpew 2K…

…and i should take the high road and continue making builds, only to be ridiculed again ? For making proper builds ? Which actually work without icebow ?

Ridiculed by people who don’t have a understanding of basic math, and think they do more DPS on their own… then an entire party does at Flame Shaman, even while using 6 icebows… before Icebow was nerfed in half… Why ?… Because i wanted to help them.

Ha ha… i laughed.
Seriously… what am i even doing here.

Khristophoros.7194:

Nemesis would you be able to break any world records with a necro in the group? That would prove how good necro is.

I mean I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong… Your method of measuring DPS that you show in your videos does make sense. You just look at the actual damage dealt. Pretty logical. But you’re only looking at the damage from 1/5th of the group and not comparing the offensive support given to the group by each character.

So I don’t see how this debate can be resolved until you show a result that is completely undisputable like a necro participating in a world record or something extremely close like within 1%-5% of the record.

Because while your method of comparing individual character DPS shows some interesting things, it doesn’t consider enough of the factors that go into choosing a character when building an optimized team.

And I’m not trying to argue against you here. I just don’t think you have presented enough evidence to positively affect the general perception of the necromancer. Because at the end of the day, the dudes who are doing the world record runs still aren’t using necros. It is impossible for you to convince them because they believe that the “math in a void” as you call it will always correlate to real DPS.

For example, from their perspective, Hypothetically character A does 10k DPS on paper and character B does 8k DPS on paper. In our hypothetical encounter the real DPS averages out to 80% due to mechanics, player error, etc. Player A will do 8k and Player B will do 6.4k. The problem with trying to argue against that is, it’s not really a flawed perspective. It’s logical. But you can potentially show it to be incorrect with enough testing if it is, in fact, incorrect.

You’d have to run a lot of actual encounters with different builds and compare the paper DPS to the actual DPS. In some cases you did mention factors that differentiate builds such as the AoE ground targetting engi getting better uptime specifically against Mossman, but that’s not good enough.

So I think you either have to grind through a bunch of builds and compare their DPS loss in practice in several different encounters, or you have to just beat a world record with a necro in the group. Both are not easy options but they would be effective for your argument if successful.

The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided. The current advertised “world record holder” had a DPS of 6K before he picked up the icebow, as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.

Therefor… asking me to beat “those” world records, which can’t even be replicated anymore because icebow got nerfed in half, is pure trolling.

… but yes, if they do non-icebow records… i am pretty sure i can come close to what they do if not do it even better.

You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.

Even before Lich Form got properly scaled, i did a CoF necro only speed run, and i came in 20 seconds slower then the world record.
This is actually a fun idea… 4 of MY glass cannon necromancers and 1 mesmer vs Bloomhunger, pretty sure i can go under 30 sec… since we don’t need to prebuff, and in world records you don’t prebuff.

Not trying to convince the people who lied to get famous, that they lied to get famous… they know it already but will never admit to it. I am merely providing evidence that they have lied, so that in the future a lot less people get fooled by their lies…

Bhawb.7408:

Obtena.7952:

The problem isn’t that the model doesn’t match the actual; The problem is that the model is too simple and doesn’t cover more scenarios, leading to promotion of the ‘optimized’ meta in situations where it’s not. A great example is when people promote the meta for openworld map completion on a Guardian. The current meta is not optimal for that content; it never has been as a matter of fact.

It covers the scenarios it was meant for, being taken out of context isn’t anyone’s fault other than the morons who do it. There is nothing you’ll convince them otherwise, they’ll always stick to their unfounded views, so why bother changing what you are doing because of it.

Did you just call all the people i showed in my “fractal LFG” which said “zerker ele or kick, NO NECRO” morons ?

You just called half the community morons… for believing what you guys were teaching them.

mind = blown

PS: Are you a speed runner ? Do you hold any records ?… Have you created a single build in your life ?… Have you tested the real DPS values of them “meta builds” a single time ?…

Based on what exactly do you now tell others that “it covers the scenarios it was meant for”, based on the fake math ?…

You can’t verify fake math… by saying “aaa… well the fake math proved it”, you know that right ?

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K…

You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely.

Now… you appear here again as if nothing happened.

Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened.

It takes a special kind of < >, to be able to act that way… after everything… i’ll give you guys that much.

Bhawb.7408:

Honestly don’t see a situation where expertise would be wanted except to maybe hit some duration thresholds that are important (like if you need just a tiny bit more duration for 100%, or 100% after minus effects or something), though its worth seeing if it beats out sinister in certain builds for PvE.

Of course you don’t… because you don’t understand the condition duration to condition damage ratios.
PS: “i haven’t taken Nemesis seriously since he try to claim necromancer does more DPS then warrior”. Who said that ?

Bhawb.7408:

Obtena.7952:

Nemesis is challenging the establishment to explain how their calculations match up with actual ingame experience. It’s not an unreasonable ask, especially since so many people rely on what they are being told to determine how they act ingame. What you are doing is focused on minutia and attempting to diminish the value of his work. Frankly, if people weren’t so scared of what he had to say, they would address it instead of dismissing it outright.

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared.

Further, Nemesis himself does the exact same thing he accuses “the establishment” (as though we have some PvE illuminati) of doing, which is cherrypicking numbers, situations, and results to match his statements, instead of the other way around. The problem is the establishment has generally proven themselves right, or quickly adapted when wrong, because they have the personal investment of speed run records. If Nemesis wanted to prove all that empirical data wrong, he could do so by beating their records and maintaining his own, but he can’t.

Simply put, if Nemesis wanted to prove himself right, he could do so. He could set his own records (and then hold on to them for more than a few hours until someone had the spare time to reduce it by minutes), he could do so constructively, without the attitude of someone whose head is so far up their own posterior they’ve come to believe their own crap is the only thing there is. But he doesn’t, because inflating his own ego gets him more views and followers, and like any other cult they don’t realize how ridiculous they are until they step outside for once and detox the kool aid.

I’m surprise you can still muster the courage to speak after you just recently said “i haven’t taken Nemesis serious since he claimed he does more DPS then a warrior”… when i baited all you elitists into insulting me so i have footage to show.

You still think you do more DPS with your warrior then i do with my necromancer, you don’t really understand how the game works… and now you’re even going back on what you guys claimed all this time.

You saw what Sesshi said a few times right ?… “It has been proved that necromancer is inferior”, “it has been proved that Nemesis builds are even more inferior”.

Well… everything you guys proved… was wrong.

The establishment never said their math doesn’t match reality, quite the opposite… they made a website on which they advertised a single possible composition making the entire community insta-kick everything else. No matter how much you guys try to sugar coat it now, you can’t take back what you guys have said over a period of two years… the majority knows you guys have discredited me, the majority knows you guys said 20K DPS… Why do you even try to deny it ?

I have also been wrongfully discredited over a period of two years… and you were one of the people who discredited me, as if you even have the game knowledge to do so. Every single build i posted in the last 2 years got flamed in the comment section by you elitists… now you’re playing the victims ? “Oh no… Nemesis is attacking us…”

You still have the nerve to continue talking… even after i provided 100% undeniable proof, that everything… you guys said… is false. slow clap
Or… are you saying that Narc is also casual in his world record Bloomberg kill ? Brazil is casual… Narc is casual ?… Painbow is casual ?… Who’s next ?…

You guys going to turn on each other now ?

“Cherry picked data”.
It was a world record… show me better footage… no really… i insist…

You can of course still prove me wrong, by recording your damage and showing us it matches the advertised damage, by all means… do that…

flow.6043:

Obtena.7952:

flow.6043:

(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

As you would with casting time or execution times with direct damage as well if you were calculating DPS properly …

Honestly, read what you said. You’re accusing him of including ramp up time for damage in an AVERAGE DPS MEASUREMENT!! Be careful if you’re going to argue pedantic points with people to try to knock holes in their arguments if what you say is not correct either.

You’ve misunderstood. I’m pointing out that he accuses other people of cherry picking or using “math-in-a-void” when he is doing exactly that. He thinks he’s seeing some bigger picture that others are too narrow mined to grasp, but all he does is apply a different frame of reference.
As for the 20k dps engi or other alleged fake dps values: obviously those don’t factor in ramp up or pre buffing times, no one was ever thinking that 20k dps means you do 20k dps from start to finish of a fight.
So when Nemesis thinks others are hypocrites for not extending their time frame to better represent the actual average values, it’s rather hypocritical of himself to exclude stuff like burst rotations against targets with lower hp. (=cherry picking)

What did you just say…

I thought i heard you saying… you guys thought the community to kick necromancers and rangers because they can’t “peak” DPS as the rest ?…

Did you just say the math-in-a-void does not take into consideration ramp-up times for condition builds ? I didn’t even put this under the things that are wrong with your “assumptions” and so called “math”.

Well there you have it folks… math-in-a-void doesn’t include ramp-up times at all.

This is getting better and better as we go along… thank you.

flow.6043:

At first I was wondering why Nemesis’ vids are getting deleted from the forum all the time, then I saw the videos. There’s no content, just trash talking other people, in part 2 anyway. Edit: now I’ve seen part 3 as well, it’s just as bad as part 2.

Nemesis.8593:

Video after video with proof

You mean like the one part where you claim that the engi’ dps peaks at 9k, while you can clearly see on screen that his burning alone is exceeding 10k or even 11k for a short moment?
(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

And then you say stuff like: …in order to get even close to 20k dps (…) you’d have to start with 20k burns on top of 6k bleeds.
…what?

It’s either you are trolling me on purpose saying that i said things i never did, i don’t know what you hope to achieve since the video is right here and everyone can say i never said “peaks”.

Or… you literally have absolutely no idea how the game works. Like… none.

I don’t know which is worse.

Anyway, you can prove me wrong any time you wish… all you have to do is take your engineer build and go into a boss fight of your choosing, record it… add all the damage then divide by the duration and display your DPS. If you are right it should be 20.000…

Now… if you fail to do it, it means it doesn’t exist, and you guys have been misleading the GW2 community for 2 years… not actually sure if you already know that and you’re just trolling me, or you actually still believe you do more DPS with your condition engineer then an entire party does during the Flame Shaman encounter, while using 6 icebows… before icebow damage got nerfed in half.

This… is mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time…

Molch.2078:

AngryBear.8741:

That is why I said don’t theorize, show it, prove your claim in a simple and objective manner so that everyone understands. I don’t understand why you are against it. If you are right, such test will just confirm it and that would be it.

DnT and Co. provided video after video of record runs over the last years. So “their” side of the argument has their “proof”. Not their fault that no one competed with a necro-and-ranger only team.

And for now, well, the game got a huge update with new instabilitys, elite specs and so on. The meta needs some time to figure itself out, people can only make some educated guesses about whats to come. I doubt that much will change from the current state of the game, but your contest at this time would had no meaning.

Video after video with proof, you straight up lie without the slightest hesitation.

Link me a video in which Bloomhunger died in 20 seconds without timewarp and icebow… a single one. Otherwise all the “advertised DPS” is a lie. Absolutely all of it.

I’ll wait right here.

I don’t think you even understand what just happened, yet you come here and argue with me.