Guild Wars 2

Serophous.9085:

Just wanted to address two issues.

Oh! And you need to spend that labor you only get while online to open loot bags. Yes, in order to get some coin, you have to spend a resource needed to do the whole farming and build house and profession stuff…on a bag….

This was removed. No need to use labor points on looted bags.

And let’s not forget dying causes you to lose XP. Thank god its f2p, though I’ll still never pay money and only play if there is nothing else to do

Xp loss on death is actually a good thing with the emphasis on PvP. It means death is meaningful. If you don’t wanna Lose exp… Improve your PvP gameplay.

Gw2 and others at least give me the freedom to really make my voice more heard. If I like a patch they do, I give them money, if not, nothing.

Obviously Archeage is not for you. I am glad you identified that right away. better than you spending cash on it, and finding out later that the game does not suit you right away.

Your bias is clearly evident.

I do think that Archeage will find it’s niche.

About the " sub fee" model. instead of thinking of Archeage as " a free to play game with a subscription option." I prefer to see it as " a subscription monthly pay 2 play Model, that has a lite version for people that wish to play for free."

Last time I checked. WoW has a subscription, and only let’s players play for free til level 20.

This lets players play " Archeage lite" for free.

Vayne.8563:

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

Talking for everyone also doesn’t help your case.

Might I offer a suggestion? Maybe you should practice what you preach.

Just because you dislike how people are unsatisfied with the state of the game, it doesn’t make their criticisms invalid.

Also, “bigger picture”? You don’t even know what ArenaNet’s plans are; no one does. You only know what it is you want and are satisfied with, so if you would be so kind, please keep your grandiose explanations more grounded in reality. Your replies are a painfully typical knee-jerk ANet apologist response; nothing more, nothing less.

Show me we’re I’m talking for everyone? Can’t? Didn’t think so. That’s because I don’t.

I don’t say all we really want is end game, because some of us don’t really want end game, not in the traditional sense.

I usually say me and players like me, or I believe more players like X and not Y. I don’t say players want this…because that’s talking for everyone.

If you use that language, even if you’re completely reasonable in what you’re asking for, you’re going to meet resistance and your message will be diminished.

If you want the OP’s message to reach less people and be less focused, feel free to continue this conversation. My comments are helping him (whether he knows it or not) more than yours are.

I mean this in all honesty " With enemies like you, one barely needs friends"

I bet with the head, not the heart. Past is prologue. The child is the father of the Man … What you got before will continue because people have been and are, and it seems will continue to support it.

There was a report, by a company called " Super Data" Not sure what that is, but it seems they tabulated the top grossing games for 2014… yes World of Warcraft was #1.

There were 2 games by NCSoft in the top 10.

neither was Gw2. They were Aion, and Blood & Soul. Gw2 is not in the top 10 grossing.

Gw2 does not have advanced graphics, and the awesome art direction has done a smoke and mirrors so no one notices.

I know give Picasso a crayon, and he outdoes any third rate artist with oils. But… while the art does a LOT to cover up the game engine, the game engine is still dated.

Games are coming out that have more " oomph" And here there will be many that will say “ya ya they said the same about TESO and Wildstar”

Well… Warlords of Draenor is a few Months away, but more importantly. Archeage is Open beta tomorrow, and will be released on the 16th… free 2 play…sandbox…

Many of the threads we have had since release. What do they want?

1. Mounts, Combat, cosmetic, and speed boost. ( I am against that for this game.)
2. Open World PvP
3. Player Housing
4. Guild Halls
5. Fishing
6. Less Instanced play

All of that is gonna be in it. The Only downside is the stigma associated with " Korean Grinder" but…we’re playing Gw2. A game ultimately owned by NCSoft, a Korean company, that many say has " grind" in it’s legendary and ascended aspects….

The Irony.

Just saying… we lost a few to Wildstar, we lost a few to ESO…Not many…. but a few.

What happens when Archeage Sand-park ( combo sandbox theme park) is live?
What happens when Warlords of Draenor goes live? We all know the WoW players almost always return to explore the new expansion, before they…either come back…stay… or… try another game

What about EQ Next?

Her is the thing, we MMO players LOVE to anticipate things from our favorite MMO’s. Whether it is a new playable race, a new class… or a new way to experience PvP… Our brains actually crave new content. Now.. many are statisfied with Living Story, but there is a bunch of players that don’t. These are the ones craving an expansion… and… there doesn’t seem to be one in the works.

It’s two years in. Most MMO’s have an expansion out by now. Ask yourself In the past two years, has Anet released " An expansion’s worth of content"?

If it has or if players anticipate it might, Anet has zero to be concerned about.

On the other hand…. for those that crave NEW, There are games coming out that offer NEW. Some of these may not be happy with " Living Story" and see no expansion coming. Seriously…. who is betting they stay?

Rouven.7409:

Nerelith.7360:

I am not an addict, and I have 3 level 80’s what does that say?

Playing the devils advocate here I’d have to say it says we’re probably looking at a case of denial.

Hello, I am Rouven, I have 8x 80’s and I am not an addict.

Here’s the thing. I have not Logged In to play Gw2 In a few weeks. I do not feel any * twitching*. I Log in when i feel like Playing, and I don’t when I don’t.

You can call it denial. and I see the humor " I deny that I am in denial." But the fact is, that what I am addicted to is…’"ENJOYMENT"

I did Not level those 80’s because I was addicted to gw2. I happened to level them because I was addicted to the fun I had while playing gw2.

The difference is a vital one. See I am not enjoying gw2 as much as I used to, so I do not play it. As I said. Not addicted to gw2, … addicted to fun. Since gw2 is not as much fun as it used to be, I don’t wake up in the morning running to play gw2 as I did when I leveled up those 3 level 80’s.

So once again. No…not addicted to Gw2.

Andred.1087:

Nerelith.7360:

laokoko.7403:

And OP is totally right, many of their changes are related on pushing people to buy gems. Im’ not sure why that is surprising.

If the game is fun to play, then the developers should not HAVE to push anyone to buy gems. You will naturally desire to buy gems, without needing to be pushed at the gem store.

Microtransactions done right

Creating an artificial way to push players to buy gems, is a sign you are doing it wrong.

No, it’s a sign that you understand marketing. In what (realistic) scenario would not pushing people to buy gems make more or even as much money as doing it?

There is a difference, between putting out a GOOD game, that happens to have a cash shop…. and your players enjoy the game…because the focus is On it being GOOD. and a by product is, all these happy players shopping at your cash shop…..

And putting out a cash grab game.

A cash grab game for me is… a game that is designed in such a way so that it is pushing players to the cash shop for as much as possible. Not as a consequence of ’ gee i love the game,, hmmm Look at that awesome armor skin." but.." a game where it is designed from the bottom up, to lead the player to the cash shop with their credit card.

Yes I agree that good Marketing would go with the latter. Good marketing would say " let the player experience come second as we ram as Much into the cash shop as we can get away with… and basically just run the game as an incidental.z’

I cannot argue with you. That is Good marketing. Or is it?

Who spends more in the long run? A happy gamer that enjoys the game because he is not being nickle and dimed at every turn? Or a Player that begins to realize that the " Game" is really just a cash shop? and the " game" is Just an excuse to sell virtual goods and services, that is being run simply to lull him or her into the cash shop?

I am basically saying that while it may be GOOD Marketing… on the surface… and in the short term, to run a cash shop..with a game attached.

it is SMARTER to run a game, with a cash shop attached.

Only time will tell what Gw2 is… Maybe it’s the first…. maybe the second, I am not insisting it is a cash shop with a game attached, since I actually enjoy playing the game. But you said it was smart marketing to put out a cash shop with a game attached.

I was simply saying why I disagree.

In what realistic scenario, does NOT pushing players to the cash shop make as Much money as pushing players to the cash shop?

Players hate to see themselves as a walking credit card. When you Put out a quality game that incidentally has a cash shop, players will In the end pay you MORE Money…In the LONG TERM, because they value their play experience, if they also value the products in the cash shop. Do that, and you are golden as your game stays popular forever, and people Pull out the credit cards anyway.

Your scenario, re-enforces in the players mind, that you simply see them as a walking credit card. And that the “Game” is just there to pull them to the cash shop, where they can swipe the credit card. In the LONG run, Players tend to stay away from these games In droves Once Identified.

Anet lets players feel like players that just happen to also have credit cards, they hang around longer and spend more.

Anet treats it’s players Like a walking credit card….. they don’t hang around as long, or spend as much.

laokoko.7403:

And OP is totally right, many of their changes are related on pushing people to buy gems. Im’ not sure why that is surprising.

If the game is fun to play, then the developers should not HAVE to push anyone to buy gems. You will naturally desire to buy gems, without needing to be pushed at the gem store.

Microtransactions done right

Creating an artificial way to push players to buy gems, is a sign you are doing it wrong.

The thing is… that while many players are happy with the content that gw2 has dished out in 2 years…. some are not. I know i am not. For me the 4/15 Update should have been better researched, and implemented, and implemented either at launch…. or shortly thereafter. Not almost 2 years after launch.

The revamp makes it look as if THIS Anet, Unlike the Anet that launched Guild Wars has no idea what they are doing.

They propose a set of philosophies about what the game is supposed to be at launch.
Things Like… The entire map will be challenging cause of down-scaling….except that down-scaling now doesn’t go far enough, you can face-roll any map lower than level 70 on your level 80.

or…

Armor stats are not part of a gear grind. Then Introduce ascended gear. and then some players will say " since you don’t need anything better than exotic for PvE ( because even players that do PvE will stop at exotics? )… ascended is optional."

Because we all agree that owning sub-optimal gear is an option.

…

Maybe for some it is. I do not imagine that the min-maxers would agree.

Those are just two reversals off the top of my head…I am sure many here, can imagine others. Look… a LOT of frenetic motion does not equal progress, if it’s a lot of fits, starts, reversals, and u turns. Sometimes Motion for the sake of motion just leaves you tired without advancing as much as if you had a well thought out path, with a consistent speed attached.

Anet seems to be doing a lot of hit and miss. Try something to see if it works then abandoning it when they feel it missed…. the whole game to me…feels Like it never left Open beta.

Edit: I got it… it feels Like the game is being currently developed in real time, by trial-and-error.

ipan.4356:

I’d be willing to support the game by buying cosmetic (and utilitarian) items in the Gem store if they game world was expanding.

That is, I don’t buy that stuff necessarily for itself (though some of it is cool – and some of it is necessary, like bank tabs and character slots) – but I consider it to be down payment on the expansion of the world. It’s just a different way of paying for it.

The problem is that Anet hasn’t delivered any serious expansion of the world, so I see no reason to spend any more money on it.

Until they do, I won’t.

I know that there is probably at least 1/3, and maybe up to 1/2 of the player base that feels this way.

We are the “exploration” players – the one’s that like opening new areas, finding new things, killing new monsters. We get less enjoyment out of seeing the same areas over and over (though we do some of that). Usually, we are willing to wait up to 2 years for an expansion, because it often takes us that long to finish previous content, get our characters ready (gear and whatnot), and put aside time for other games and real life stuff.

By the end of two years, any MMO should have an expansion ready – regardless of how they choose to release it.

I paid the box price for “vanilla” GW2. I bought some stuff in the gem shop (3 extra character slots, bank tab, premium edition (for the mistwolf) plus my gf bought some extra cosmetics).

These purchases were done with the expectation that they essentially crowdfunded the next expansion of content in an indirect manner.

Anet got their initial investment back from the box price of the game – gem shop sales should be funding an expansion.

The fact that this doesn’t appear to be the case is what’s angering so many people.

Make an expansion Anet – or we’ll leave.

Yes, that’s an ultimatum.

Best advice I can give Anet: suck it up buttercup.

Thank you for reading my mind. This precisely how I have been feeling " where’s the expansion?"

Instead I get told " Living Story is " expansion-like" " Except for me it’s not. What I associate with an expansion, are New professions, new races, New skills…. then add new maps , and new quests. But all we get with living story is new maps, and new quests.

When at a dinner party, you get offered cheeze and crackers as an appetizer before dinner is served…. it is not dinner.

Anet is still serving us cheeze and crackers, where is the dinner?

kult.3465:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

kult.3465:

Every mmo player is an addict by their very nature.

. . . what? That seems a remarkably narrow viewpoint to take of “every MMO player”.

As long as that addiction doesn’t effect your education, family, social life etc, you are just devoted to your hobby.

Well then it’s a hobby and not an addiction, isn’t that so? A hobby which may be detrimental to your wallet, but a hobby. Like LARPing. Or Warhammer.

If you can walk away from the game, and function normally for extended periods of time . . . you are probably not an addict.

Anyone willing to spends hours grinding away killing virtual boars for the sword of light and truth is an addict.

An mmo player that is not an addict has a character no higher than a level 10. Lol

I am not an addict, and I have 3 level 80’s what does that say?

Ben.2685:

A few days ago as I was salvaging luck I asked myself “what for?” I have more gold than I’d ever spend and would better drops from the same content really make the game more enjoyable? I realised then that I playing out of a compulsion rather than deriving any sense of fun; I was addicted.

Whether it be from chasing achievement points, completing your daily, or anything else, does anyone else feel the same unpleasant necessity to play the game?

Not even. The game is about running out of fun for me. Nothing new, only things they focus On are Gem store, and Living story, and armor skins…. on the gem store and weapon skins on the gem store….

Heading for AA.

SLthethird.3562:

One last thing I’d like to know: If you’re one of those who plans on migrating to another game soon, which one are you moving to? I plan on clearing out some time for Kingdom Under Fire 2 after seeing Angryjoe’s interview.

Trying Archage Open beta, Loved the Closed Betas… so have high hopes. Trade runs were fun. Getting a glider, Open world mass PvP, Pirates…etc… Create your own class type of character developement.

I think that while I Like Gw2, I may simply have reached a point where I crave new content. This is the point where I usually anticipate an expansion,… and yet, they are commited to Living Story.

Some people love Living Story, …I am not thrilled with it. I do hope the game is around for sometime.

wasted.6817:

Good post, good points. I believe problem lies somewhere in upper management of Anet, because priorities and directions in development post release in this game were mostly kittened up. I think they lack vision for their own game, they lost it at some point close to release or right after it. They try and start bunch of things, they can’t properly finish anything, it seems even random sometimes. Southsun — started out of nothing and ended nowhere. Now we have this island where horrible Karka event takes place, first implementation was bad, they did a revamp this event and it’s still so bad. What was it all about? Early after release they announced a dungeon team and a goal to revamp dungeons, all this silently vanished somewhere in dark depths of Anet. Same with precursor scavenger hunt, just silently disappeared into nowhere. SAB, again, had nothing to do with anything in the game, just another random project of theirs, people happen to love it, at least some quiet vocal part, again, vanished somewhere. We now have tutorials revamps and all kinds of fixes for newer players as they say, yet 2 years later build and gear manager is nowhere to be found in this game, . What you think new players think about it? When you look at it, it looks like Anet is a bunch of random freelancers and they just start whatever each of them wants then they get bored with it midway and drop it to start something else. While we have underdeveloped parts of the game, WvW and PvP, and PvE with no sense of direction. The only area where they were persistent, more or less, is Gem Store.

I have been here since launch. I Loved it when the game was released. But somewhere along the line, they seem to have taken a bunch of half steps. Non-commital, middling things that sought to please everyone, and Not offend anyone, but ended up offending everyone.

I think most of it was out of some desire to not end up a niche game. They went after the mainstream, like it’s some gold ring on a merry-go-round that many games since World of warcraft have lunged for. Some successfully…. but.. Most end up Just … taking steps that do not commit them to any one niche group…

Just one example. When this game launched the idea was that when you travelled to lower levels, you would be just as challenged by the content in lower zones as you were in top level zones. A level 60, would experience ALL zones lower as if it were a level 60 zone.

Same with an 80. This I welcomed. it basically made the entire map, end game since the entire map would become “Orr.”

Somewhere along the way, they sied away from that, and made it so a level 80 can faceroll Lower level maps… then the people say “Bored, need more end game.”

Anet has gone from being brave, bold, and committed to revamping elements of MMO’s with Guild Wars, to being tepid, and seeking not to upset any core of players enough to retain enough, to squeak out some profit.

Nothing wrong with profit, but sometimes, trying to appeal to the most … so that you retain large numbers of the average, leave the game feeling bland, mediocre.

After two years, I am gonna take a long break from Gw2. Archeage is coming out soon. I may give that a looksie.

What bugs me most is, two years in , is usually when you see an expansion, and that tends to revitalize games. It brings back the old, and brings in some new players, gets the game talked about in video game magazines….etc… But there is no expansion in sight.

The only thing that Gw2 does consistenly is… push the gem store, and living story. I guess this is awesome if you like the Gem Store, and living story. Me… not so much.

gobax.6185:

Bad. Anet is becoming worse every patch. They keep on saying they listen, but with the changes theyre doing, they are proving otherwise.

They do not lie. They do listen. But what they hear doesn’t change their plans. Everything is about two things.

1. Living Story
2. Gem Store

As long as what anyone says is about how great and awesome those two things are, they pay attention.

If you bring up anything else. They listen.

UnitedChaos.8364:

+1 OP

I made a post a long time ago that went something like…

“Issue:
Currently if you enter a level 15-25 area, for example, you are downscaled to a level 23 which is nearly the highest “recommended” level for that area. With a level 80 character with level 80 gear you still dominate the area, and it is not near challenging due to how much experience you have playing the game. My perspective: I have a friend who just started playing, and I would like to play with them. I consider myself pretty skilled, but when I’m downscaled I’m still to powerful to help. I often find myself standing and not attacking, so they can learn the game. I want him to learn, him to play, AND me.
Suggestion:
I suggest if you enter a level 15-25 area, for example, you should be downscaled to a level 15, the lowest “recommended” level for the area. This makes the entire area much more challenging. Which, frankly, it should be. If you’ve played the entire game and have appropriate armor, understand combat, dodging, etc. you should have a good deal of experience. Also, with appropriate armor and weapons it should better balance itself.”

This sounds Likr an awesome idea. I do Not see why a level 80 downscaled to 15, should be too distressed in the zone, ..let’s face it, they faced the zone at 15 with less armor, and weapons, and it probably was not horrible.

The only reason i can see why anyone would object is because." I earned level 80, I deserve and am entitled to faceroll in lower level zones….just like in other MMO’s."

1. This is Not other MMO’s
2. it was the intent of the devs when this game launched that for a level 80, there be no " Lower level zones." the entire map, was supposed to be a level 80 zone.

Iason Evan.3806:

The top desires from the paying customers have gone totally ignored.

Since this is a Buy2play game, there is no paying customer/non-paying customer dichotomy. Everyone paid for the game, therefore …everyone is a paying customer.

Frequenting the gem-store doesn’t make you any more a " paying customer" than not frequenting it. They had something on the gem store you wanted, you bought it. This does not make you any more a " paying customer" than someone that doesn’t see anything they think is worth buying therefore…doesn’t buy it.

You paid for a virtual product, you got the virtual product. You no more " support the game" than someone that buys a Cadillac does it to " support the auto company", they do it because they wish to own a Cadillac.

You did it because you wanted a product off the gem store.

Tulki.1458:

I think it’s good for the game to have noticeable character progression. Right now, a higher-level player has an easier time against low level mobs and I think that’s okay, since the rewards are only a little over half what you’d get from fighting level 80s. If everything is exactly the same level then the game ceases to be an RPG, and higher level zones lose their sense of danger.

Not true since the entire world suddenly becomes the equivalent of Orr, for a level 80, the entire world gains a sense of danger. This is what the developers intended, then seemed to shy away from the idea.

People also bring up the issue of L80s stealing loot from low level players, but this almost never happens due to event upscaling and how little damage it takes to tag a mob.

Unless a low level player never gets to tag the mob, because the mob is killed too fast by the plethora of level 80’s.

I think to satisfy everyone, there ought to be difficulties that you can toggle on by visiting an NPC in Lion’s Arch.

Or all level 80’s can be downscaled so they are effectively the same level as the maximum level of the area… lower health, lower armor… runes and sigils adjusted for the level.

Normal: Your level is capped at zone+1 (how it currently is).

I would preferr the character, normal to be at zone…except with less health and armor than those around you, why less? You already fight more effectively, you have 6 runes that all grant you bonuses , unlike minor runes that can only be stacked as 3 sets of 2 for level 15’s, you also know how to dodge better….= 100 % damage mitigation. You should suffer more when you make a mistake, since you are a veteran, and the people around you aren’t.

Veteran: Capped at the zone’s level. Unlocked at level 15 (around when you have access to masterwork gear). Gain +22% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 2 or greater, regardless of their level.

Elite: Capped at zone-1. Unlocked at level 30 (around when you have access to rare gear). Gain +69% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 3 or greater, regardless of their level.

Champion: Capped at zone-2. Unlocked at level 60 (around when you have access to exotic gear). Gain +156% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 4 or greater, regardless of their level.

Legendary: Capped at zone-3. Unlocked at level 75 (roughly once you’re into the end-game zones). Gain +306% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 5 or greater, regardless of their level.

Bonuses don’t apply to karma since you would be mingling with other people in the same zone who aren’t necessarily playing higher difficulties, and would otherwise boost your karma gain.

Toggling a difficulty would give you a portrait border when highlighted by other players (the same portraits that enemies of the same difficulty label have). As well, a difficulty can be selected and agreed-upon by the entire party when entering a dungeon.

The whole toggle thing would not work for me since the whole issue is that there are level 80’s that are souring the experience for new players, … what if they choose to NOT go to the toggle dude, and downscale ?? It should be out of everyone’s hands, and level 80’s in a level 15 zone should be at a disadvantage, since they have 6 runes, and traits , and Know How to select skills that synergize better, and Know how to dodge, boss tactics, tell tales..etc.

MChuzzlewit.5178:

In case you didn’t already know the thief profession already has a skill set for having no off-hand weapon equipped. Guess how many thieves run without an off-hand weapon?

While true, but all that does is give them a crap 3rd skill that in no way makes up for the loss of the 3 skills from the offhand weapon.

But I think the idea is, … use a main hand weapon with 3 skills, give up the 2 from the offhand, and be able to replace these with utility skills.

I could get behind this. Would really open the game up for theory crafting.

Not sure if it can be coded properly, but I feel thatrunes and sigils should be of the same quality, as would be available for a character at max level for zone.

If you are level 80 in a level 15 zone, while you would gain all 6 effects of having superior runes, it should only be as effective as the minor runes that other players would have at level 15. Same for sigils.

Traits I would leave alone, as they are well earned now. And since this might make the level 80 character more effective than level 15 players, add to that that they dodge better, and have some idea of synergy boosting builds… their health should be lower… armor should also not Block as Much damage as a level 15 set of armor.

I feel that a level 80 in Queensdale should be as afraid of 4 Tamini, as he is of 4 Risen.

Vayne.8563:

This game isn’t designed for people who want the “old style” end game content. I thought that was clear way before launch. This game is designed for people who don’t.

So the people who don’t like this game leave, but not all of them do. Many in my guild are playing 2 years and still enjoying the game.

And they’re not looking for more end game content, at least not the kind you seem to be talking about.

Keeping people in the game that want this game is what Anet is doing. Losing people from this game who want a completely different game is inevitable.

QFT. When this game launched it was pretty clear it was not a WoW clone. I find it intriguing that two years later, we still have people trying to make it more of a wow clone.

Personally, I would like to have downscaling make the game a real challenge for level 80’s. I remember the developer’s intent on launch was that the entire game was supposed to be a level 80 zone. That would help to make it feel as if the entire game would be level 80 content.

The fact that my level 80 can spam 1, and eat up several mobhs at once in level 15 zones means that they have fallen a bit off the mark, but that is the subject of another thread.

Clamoring for Raids, is what makes WoW great. No one does WoW better than WoW. Thankfully this is not WoW.

Tachenon.5270:

Boneheart.3561:

Spira.4578:

The reason why I’m writing this is because I LOVE Guild Wars 2.

Oh boy…

Ziggy says there’s an 85% chance your here to save GW2 by writing an insightful post on the forums that will bring about a transcendent level of communication between the players and the developers the likes of which has never been seen in the history of online gaming, which will prompt the return of Heroes/Henchies to Tyria, which in turn will be a key element in the creation of the first true Artificial Intelligence.

I anticipate that day with baited breath. Who brings the popcorn?

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

There is a simple test to know whether they were successful or not. How many games were released? How many expansions? How Long was the game out before it was allowed to piggy back on Gw2’s servers?

I think that spells successful.

Wrong metrics. Completely. That’s how to measure a Sub MMO, or older game requiring new content to be sold to make money, with the absence of a strong pay store. The model being experimented with here is provide quality content up front, then have people show their support of that content by buying from the store. Now there is subjective response to quality…I’m not going to discuss that with anyone. Art is art, music is music, and game content is just as subjective as either of those items.

What can be measured is the % of people who purchased the game and log back in to recieve their content update relative to those that have truly left the game. If you are logging into the game, then you are counted as a retained customer. If retention starts dropping, then we’ll see really big changes in the store..or the game will close down.

I say this again, it is not important to maintain high concurrency, particularly with the megaservers. This is actually increasing costs and decreasing profitability. The best plan is to create content to keep the bottom 95% of the population busy for a month or so, with an ever increasing backlog of achievements, etc. Let the top 2-5% leave, or WvW or PvP…any choice is fine for this model..or, keep returning for the content updates and continue the cycle.

Until the top % of players understands this is how this is going to work, they will continue to be upset. When they finally do, they’ll vote with their pocketbooks, one way or the other.

Btw, this is the way this payment model has been designed to work, this isn’t anything that is fundamentally changed. As a matter of fact, they have actually conceded that the original plan of truly temporary content..which actually increases concurrency (those that got to see all the content HAD to be online=‘forcing’ their players to be online all the time) was the wrong place to be spending their development time. I can also guarantee you their metrics showed them this, to.

My point was if it had been a financial flop, it would have been closed down after the Factions was released, and showed that the economic model being used, did not work.

If it failed with Factions, they would not have wasted money , developing then releasing and running Nightfall.

If Nightfall was a failure, they would simply have shut down the servers. While there is NO way to say how much of a success those games were, they were successful. And it can be seen because … other games were shut down even with no subscription.

CoH was shut down…even though it went free 2 play, and tried to make cash, it wasn’t shut down because it was a success.

If Guild Wars had been a failure, it would have been shut down ages ago.

sirian.4981:

Nerelith.7360:

sirian.4981:

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Well most of the original GW2 design team has been fired or quit by now, so the game really is controlled by moneymen. They have no issue with firing artists if they don’t perform. I think this is the reason there is such a large disconnected between current content and early content.

It is sad, I remember when the game was released I actually spend HOURS playing. I would Look foreward to logging on. I played the game straight. Not sure if i can even Point to what has actually been changed…. all I know is…Now the game is Not as fun to play.

it seems that a LOT has been moved to the gem store. The biggest complaint I have is traits. Used to be you levelled up..bought a cheap book, and bam..all the traits were there. Now they coupled a GOOD thing… making it so you need to explore content, to unlock traits…. with a Bad thing….they made the content you need to unlock prohibitive, while giving you the option to simply use gold to BUY the traits….

Gold they sell for gems which you buy with cash.

/me sighs…. I can see how this was implemented mostly because they think this is what the chinese audience will like. No idea, since I don’t Know how Chinese players consume their MMO’s, I read somewhere that either Korea, or japan, players pay for MMO’s By the Minute? what?

I agree, the Money-men have won this one. Sad. I Understand the artist needs the businessman, but it is always a shame when the artist is crushed by the business man.

edit:

Guess that they should teach students a fable by Aesop, another artist, “The goose that lays Golden eggs” in Business school?

Well I don’t know enough about the financials of the game to say if it was successful. Certainly a lot of players enjoyed it, but how much is the game spending versus making? Would it still be profitable if they were followign the original plans?

There is a simple test to know whether they were successful or not. How many games were released? How many expansions? How Long was the game out before it was allowed to piggy back on Gw2’s servers?

I think that spells successful.

sirian.4981:

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Well most of the original GW2 design team has been fired or quit by now, so the game really is controlled by moneymen. They have no issue with firing artists if they don’t perform. I think this is the reason there is such a large disconnected between current content and early content.

It is sad, I remember when the game was released I actually spend HOURS playing. I would Look foreward to logging on. I played the game straight. Not sure if i can even Point to what has actually been changed…. all I know is…Now the game is Not as fun to play.

it seems that a LOT has been moved to the gem store. The biggest complaint I have is traits. Used to be you levelled up..bought a cheap book, and bam..all the traits were there. Now they coupled a GOOD thing… making it so you need to explore content, to unlock traits…. with a Bad thing….they made the content you need to unlock prohibitive, while giving you the option to simply use gold to BUY the traits….

Gold they sell for gems which you buy with cash.

/me sighs…. I can see how this was implemented mostly because they think this is what the chinese audience will like. No idea, since I don’t Know how Chinese players consume their MMO’s, I read somewhere that either Korea, or japan, players pay for MMO’s By the Minute? what?

I agree, the Money-men have won this one. Sad. I Understand the artist needs the businessman, but it is always a shame when the artist is crushed by the business man.

edit:

Guess that they should teach students a fable by Aesop, another artist, “The goose that lays Golden eggs” in Business school?

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

lol… well. At this point all I can do is point back to the Anet of old. The Anet that launched an awesome experiment at the time. An MMO without a subscription price that saught to maintain AAA standards.

I can hope they look back, and remember what brought many of us to this new vehicle. And remember we came with expectations.

I know, Most of the Guild wars crowd probably left ages ago. But…

To follow your analogy. The chef that wishes eo serve awesome Beef dishes, and who’se Boss gives him spam to work with….

He needs to ask himself…" why am i Putting up with this crappy spam?" If he says " it pays the bills" No matter how much he believes he is engaged In a " day to day war." … that is all illusion, he’s sold out.

On the other hand…the customer at this restaurant, that is being served Spam…. I am sure it is the best spam dish ever prepared, well seasoned etc….but ..why is she eating there? The Chef is either capable of better, and ill-serving her, or ..is not capable of better… and she need sto ask herself.." hmmm I heard there is a new restaurant opening next month Just down the block… fact is..this Thursday they are having a " pre-opening"… Might wanna check out if their meat dishes are spam filled?"

chemiclord.3978:

Nerelith.7360:

THAT type of expansion is what comes with a paid for expansion. new maps?…New dungeons? new zones? They can do that with an update for free.

Theoretically, that can be done with the Living Story as well. I’ll accept that it hasn’t (yet), but I see no reason why it’s impossible.

I mean, that’s why I have such a long leash with the LS, I think. There’s a lot it CAN do. The ability to add new skills, for example, HAS been done… just currently they’ve all been healing skills (I suspect because they wanted to test the water with something that wouldn’t break the precious game balance they are so obsessed with).

There’s really no reason it CAN’T add a new race (or even a new profession), except the limitations set by the developers. And frankly, if they aren’t keen on adding particular things, they likely aren’t going to be particularly inclined to do so as part of an expansion either.

I think we are understanding each other better here. See the thing is… I do not wish to do Living story, to play a new Profession. I don’t want to have to do Living Story, to access new weapons.

So if they need Living story to release this type of content, i will not get access to it. As someone said before… the player-base is being divided by Living Story, by those that do it..the ones that do not..( me) are excluding themselves from Living Story content.

I want to be able to log in… and CREATE a new profession, Not play an Old character in living story, that for that chapter suddenly has access to new skills.

Anyway. While I can understand that this type of “expansion” content MIGHT be a part of Living Story, even if it is, it is Not gonna be In a way that I or players Like me would be accessing. I want a new profession I can play from level 1. Not a profession my level 80 gets to play as Long as they do the Living story chapter that gives her the oppurtunity to access the new skills etc…etc…

Just…meh.

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

You usually see it when a game that everyone else says will never make money gets published anyway. You also see it in quirky games that defy all money-man logic. And still find a following.

It’s watching a Movie made by an Indie company, it’s reading a novel not on the top ten best-seller list.

It’s buying a small game that dared to say " you can have an awesome gaming experience in an MMO without a subscription fee. "

The irony.

I realize that since the success of World of Warcraft the money-men dominate the creation and distribution of MMO’s. But they only do so because we the players acquiesce. As you said…. those of us that continue to log in, and play, give NCSoft the message that all is fine, as those that continue complaining, but continue buying from the gem store.

As such, each of us needs to ask ourselves." what do we want out of our MMO’s?" " Is this company providing it?" If they are you are golden, but if deep down you feel that it’s Not? Then you have questions to ask yourself. We do need to get it in our heads that we are voting with our wallet, even when we don’t intend to, and a lot of times, our wallet is voting things our mouth speaks against. When this happens we need to recognize that what we speak with our lips is being drowned out by what we scream with our money.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

43508kittenelith.7360:

If you do not wish to buy an expansion, you do not have to. But if you choose not to, then you choose to exclude yourself from the content contained. That is not a reason to deny those of us that wish to have a paid expansion.

“Since I do not consider it worth it, to pay for a Box at the stadium, and I do not wish that those that do consider it wortwhile to experience something I cannot experience, no one should have the option of renting a Box at the stadium”

Is this what you are saying?

No, it’s not. But you might as well assume that is what I am saying since you are trying to boil it all down to a soundbyte you construct to make your point.

What I am saying is the same thing I said at the start of this thread: I do not think an expansion will fix anything, or solve any issues with how the players feel. I have no personal objection to an expansion. I said I would purchase it if it came out, in fact. (Twice.)

But it’s, in my view, not going to solve what people expect it to solve.

It may Not solve it for you. But that doesn’t mean it won’t solve it for me. And while there may be a few Players that say " I exhausted the content …now what?" I feel they are seeing the content that is usually included with living story, " …new maps, new quests, new zones." is what is exhausted.

What is included in a paid expansion " new professions, new weapons, new skills, new traits, new races." is only exhausted for the players that tire of playing the game.

The thing is, just because these players may not consider an expansion a solution for them, does not mean it is not a solution for others.

Because one group does not see this as a solution for them. is Not a reason to deny those of us that see it as a solution, of a paid expansion.

If you do not find a paid expansion to be cost effective for you, do not buy it. But at the same time understand, if you are excluded from the content it was a decision you made. Those of us that see it as a solution for us, will buy it.

“Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” <Voltaire>

sirian.4981:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

I personally think that a paid expansion would do more harm than good at this point.

People have gotten used to free content every 2 weeks, and if they suddenly had to wait 6+ months without content and then be forced to pay for it they most likely wouldn’t like it too much.

ArenaNet have gotten themselves into this “mess” of the Living Story. Now they either prove that it actually IS like an expansion, or they call defeat and will lose most of their playerbase since people won’t stay with a company that doesn’t know what it is doing.

The thing is, new content is expensive. I am betting the reason we don’t see much big content in the updates is that its not justifiable financially. An expansion would provide enough cash to actually add new dungeons and new zones.

I can tell you right now, if all an expansion included was new dungeons and new zones, I would not pay a dime for it. Neither new dungeons nor new zones expand how i play gw2.

Before I spend a dime on an expansion it would have to include either new professions, new races, new skills… new weapons… etc…

THAT type of expansion is what comes with a paid for expansion. new maps?…New dungeons? new zones? They can do that with an update for free.

I would Not put much on that list, it seems to be a combination of " Old classics No one can argue about , combined with new mediocre games put out by companies that buy advertising space from our website that we cannot afford to kitten off, by leaving out a title they developed" list.

It’s basically a Brown-noser list, so that the developement companies can put out a Blurb on their websites… " we made the " name website that sells it’s reviews to big advertisers" top 100 list!!! "

Tomas.5029:

I think the argument that an expansion is a bad idea because it would pull Anet from giving us things to do on a bi-weekly basis is not really that strong.
The things they give us, an average players completes in 2 hours, or so, and then he or she goes back to the same old – fractal/champion/ecto/world boss grind for the rest of the 2 weeks.

For example, right now, we haven’t had any new content since August 12. On 9th, the feature pack will arrive, which also isn’t content, those are just changes to the old systems. Next stop, WvW tournament, which again, is not new content, it’s going back to the same old WvW, but this time with less achievements to complete than before.
So, frankly speaking, we will be somewhere around 2-3 months without new content.
Can you honestly say that something has changed for you? Do you feel more bored, because we won’t see Braham, Taimi and other forgettable, one dimensional characters Anet has created until the Fall?
I certainly don’t.
Absolutely nothing would change if we were to wait a couple more months without any new cheesy episodes that introduce literally nothing for people who aren’t lore freaks.

+1 QFT. Living Story does not appeal to everyone. But I did get a chance to see an interview on youtube that a couple of the developers gave to Gamemag.

According to them, it’s all 110 % about Living Story.

Someone should clue them in, that while there are players that love Living Story, there are also players that don’t bother with Living Story.

For those that don’t. it Just feels that the whole.." we would Love to look into pre-cursor crafting, I mean it’s like… it has a lot of potential…but it’s not what we are focusing on at the moment…let me tell you about Living Story."

/me facepalms.

Neb.4170:

But why on earth would NCSoft, a Korean company, want to get rid of Asian elements?

Kind of… doesn’t make sense in my head. Maybe from an investor point of few, but it’s not like Asian themes turn many people off. (inb4 korean grind/anime joke)

It is because NCSoft doesn’t want to make any mistakes in rolling out Cantha. It is possible that because of some mistake made accidentally, they may come across as culturally blind or insensitive. As in assuming that Korean culture encompasses ALL of Asia for example?

Another is assuming that " asian" is one homogeneous experience or culture. When In fact it encompasses many, that by accident all happen to be in the same general area…and to many western eyes appears to be homogeneous. ( example: Japanese hate being confused for Koreans even though racially they are pretty much indistinct, but…culturally…. they are miles apart.) When you say " asian" elements, are you saying Chinese? Japanese? Korean? maybe elements from Singapore? or maybe Okinawa? How about Malaysian…or Russian? ( yes most of Russia is in Asia, although they consider themselves European. Amazing) There is no such thing as a homogeneous " Asian" element. Only " asian" in the eyes of westerners. And this is why NCSoft, a Korean company refused to even risk offending the Chinese with a release of Cantha.

Cantha was seen as China. And NCSoft is releasing Gw2 in China, seems perfectly reasonable to me from a financial stand-point.

Better to totally eliminate Cantha and therefore not have cultural ignorance cause what may be perceived as cultural insensitivity, than to run the risk of lost sales in the Huge Chinese Market.

Edit: For those that try to say that " Russians are Europeans. " That is a cultural distinction, Not a geographical one, since…. Geographically Europe is Just a peninsula that projects out of the Asian continent. Europe is not a continent, only Euro-centric map makers call it one. Technically ALL Europeans are likewise Asians.

The problem is, westerners will talk about cultural distinctions about Europeans, but then geographical ones about " Asians". That is why NCSoft decided Not to risk Cantha, and simply said " Just say it sank..and died."

Leo G.4501:

Nerelith.7360:

How does One exhaust new weapons? Anyone exhaust their greatsword yet? Or their Short bow? Maybe the staff has been exhausted?

How does One exhaust new skills? How many thieves have exhausted Cloak n dagger? Or How many mesmers have exhausted Null field?

New Maps can be exhausted, New Quests can be exhausted, even new Boss mobs can be exhausted. And isn’t this what Living Story delivers?

Dunno about all of those but I might have exhausted this female Charr here. It’s not as exciting logging in to her and taking her for a ride…exploring around Southsun on her is like throwing a Quaggan down a Canyon XD

It seems to me that you are exhausted by the core game. If you have no desire to play any profession, experience any weapon, or skill… are not enjoying any armor set, runes, weapon set,…sigils, traits…..

If this applies to you, this is the player that usually most desires an expansion.

Now. Maybe you are the type of player that doesn’t desire an expansion. or simply feels that an expansion will simply be similarly exhausted.

If this is so, I do not understand why Living Story would have anything to appeal to you, after all, what does it matter what quests or mobs you face, or how new the map is, if you are exhausted of the very professions , weapons, skills, armor, runes, sigils and traits you would need to use with which to engage this new living story content?

This is the type of player that expansions are intended for. Players that are tired of the old professions, …give them a couple of new ones to play.

Players tired of the old weapons… give them new weapons.

Now, it is true that this type of player may be easily exhausted of the new content as well. This type of player needs to ask themselves. " is this expansion worth my money for me?" It is Possible you might consider the limited time that this new content might appeal to you to be worth it.

On the other hand, maybe you aren’t willing to pay for a new expansion and know it. Then do not buy it if it is offered. There are many of us that will pay for it, and enjoy it. Simply because players exist that would derive zero benefit from a paid expansion, and feel that the game itself has been exhausted, doesn’t mean that those of us willing to pay for an expansion should be denied.

If the core game itself has been exhausted, and you see no appeal in an expansion that includes more professions, more skills, more weapons, more traits, etc…. maybe instead of being here saying " No, I’ll be exhausted fast, it’s Not worth My money, and I do not want to be excluded from new content." ( No idea why this would concern you if you are in fact tired of the professions, weapons, skills, traits….etc. Reminds me a Bit of the Dog in the manger. " I don’t want it, therefore you shouldn’t have it!" or is it the paid part you object to?) maybe the time has come to move on? Find a new game to play?

Edit:

Leo G.4501:

I’d like some new skills for my Elementalist over just slight tweaks to numbers and text descriptions.

I agree. I rather have new weapons and new skills for my professions or new peofessions to play, rather than have some bug that doesn’t affect how i play slow the works down. " oh no…. that trait that gives me 3 seconds of vigor when i dodge is broken…. do NOT give me new weapons, or professions til this is fixed!!!"

Really? lol.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I can’t disagree with the logic here. However, I can disagree with the sentiment and spirit of what is being said. People can, do, and have gotten tired of content in expansions swiftly enough in the past.

Sure, if you’re still playing, you haven’t technically “used up” all of the content. But that’s because we’re not talking of a finite measurement. If you can show me a gram of raiding, or a liter of farming, I might consider it possible to “use up” a game in the traditional sense of it.

But what we’re talking about is not “you haven’t gotten to the end of the Falhammer Hall instance so you’re not done with the content” versus “I have no more desire to even set foot in there” in terms of “exhausting content”.

I realize you are different, but…. there are players that play professions and do not exhaust professions, until they get so tired of the game that they move onto something else. The same for skills, and weapons.

I’m not different in that respect, but I am different in the respect of getting tired enough to just step back and try something else. Either in the same game, or to try another game for a while. I have Minecraft – I can always find something to kill time until my interest returns.

You need to claim that " Oh content in a paid for expansion will be exhausted in a month" but that only applies to the type of content that Anet has been releasing in it’s " Living Story" and that it says is " expansion-like."

In My opinion, this argument is a non-argument, and is rather disingenuous at best.

As such, you can keep making it if you wish, personally I do not see it as a real issue.

I do apologize, I should have stated myself clearer.

I think the content will be termed “exhausted” in a month by the same people who claim there is nothing left to do currently.

Sorry for the mistake.

I think that this group that claims " there is nothing left to do currently" need to rethink things and put it in a different perspective. Saying “There is nothing left to do currently” seems to strongly imply that there is nothing left to do for anyone. And since this group has " exhausted" the content that was available since release…. " skills, professions, weapons, traits." That everyone else, would also be exhausted of this content. I do not believe that this group speaks for everyone.

It’s not " There is Nothing left to do."

it’s

“There is nothing left to do for them” This group needs to stop thinking they speak for everyone, and speak only for themselves.

There are two types of players as I see it, those that are still enjoying the content that was here on release… the professions, the weapons, the skills and traits, but would like more variety now that 2 years has passed, they enjoy the game, but want it expanded with more professions, more weapons, more skills, more traits.

There is also a group that it seems from what you are saying… exhaust that type of content. Now in general, when a player exhausts this type of content… they move on to another game. or… they wait until an expansion is released, and Play the expansion.

What you seem to be arguing is that since you would be exhausted of that type of content, no one should have it. Since you do not consider it worth the expence, since you don’t think it’s a good expenditure of your cash, because you would get exhausted eventually…. no one should be offered the option.

Did I misunderstand you, or are you saying that since you personally, do not consider it a good financial decision to purchase an expansion, and you do not desire to be excluded out by your decision, then everyone else that might consider it a good purchase has to be denied?

If you do not wish to buy an expansion, you do not have to. But if you choose not to, then you choose to exclude yourself from the content contained. That is not a reason to deny those of us that wish to have a paid expansion.

“Since I do not consider it worth it, to pay for a Box at the stadium, and I do not wish that those that do consider it wortwhile to experience something I cannot experience, no one should have the option of renting a Box at the stadium”

Is this what you are saying?

Nunchucks,… Bo staff, three section staff… wait for cantha? ..Is cantha coming?

Shivan.9438:

Creating an expansion isn’t easy or time/cost effective.

Look how long it took to make GW2 with all of it’s bugs, glitches, exploits, etc still in the game even after all the changes it went through in the betas. To create an expansion that would offer content to keep veterans playing would take a massive amount of time and resources that Anet obviously doesn’t have or are willing or able to spend. If so, core GW2 would be better than it is now.

Not to mention which expansion to make?
Cantha? – It’s been done. But there’s a lot of changes to make. It’s been 200+ years. What’s happened to the Jade Sea? Echovald Forrest? The Celestial Ministry? The damage from the Afflicted? Is it time/cost effective to re-write changes to make the expansion worth developing?

Elonia? – Is there enough pre-existing lore/content to make the expansion worth it without having to write more or retcon for the sake of selling it?

Plus there are still places in Tryia that are closed off, but explorable in GW1. Crystal Desert, more of the Shiverpeaks. And this is main land Tyria, not having to cross the ocean to get to Cantha. The developers have their hands full with just the core game, an expansion without the full world being opened up would be utterly ridiculous time/money wise.

For me, the Irony is, they were able to do it for Guild Wars, which ran on Lower end machines, and had less players, so had less cash to play with.

Now they have Millions of subscribers, a simpler skills system to balance ( and can’t)… less classes, and for some reason, they cannot or will not get the resources to put out a decent expansion?

Why not? The Anet that put out Guild Wars managed to do a LOT more with a LOT less.

I sincerely doubt it’s Not because they are not able, and I just think that they either are not willing, or do not feel they need to….

Maybe they grew complacent?

As long as we keep shopping at the gem store, no need to Put out an expansion i guess.

chemiclord.3978:

Nerelith.7360:

Then you need to accept what it is. You are the one excluding yourself from content.

This is Like going to the ballpark, and you get a regular seat, but other people have Boxes they rent by the year, which probably give them extra amenities, their own bathroom, the equivalent of room service with someone to go get them their snacks etc….

They pay for these amenities. The spectator that chooses to NOT rent a Box excludes Himself from that " content".

Just because he doesn’t wish to rent a box, does that mean Boxes should not be made available to those that wish to rent them? because his choosing to NOT rent it, means he excludes himself from that " content"?

I think we’re talking through each other at this point.

I am not against an expansion inherently. If Arena.net wants to do so, I will no doubt buy it. But at the same time, if they claim they can do the same sort of thing, for free, through the Living Story, I’m certainly not going to say “No! Gimme a box and charge me for it!”

I’m more patient with the Living Story because of it. If I was being charged for this, I’d be more demanding, I suspect.

I do agree with you though. I feel that as long as they can keep the Player base content with Living story updates they will.

The thing for m is…. that with a paid-for expansion, playeres DO get more demanding of what is in it. See as I see it, you can have year’s worth of Living story. But I am sure you will more than likely never see New Professions, new weapons, and new skills In a Living Story update.

On the other hand…

if they announce an expansion, players will demand at least 2 ro 4 new professions, and at least 2 new races. Along with weapons and skills.

I believe, I may be wrong, that those players content with Living story, have less desire for New Professions, new skills, new weapons than they do for New maps, new quests.

While those wanting a paid expansion… have more of a desire for what normally comes in a paid expansion… new professions, new skills, new weapons, new traits…

I think whether or not Anet can satisfy players with living story, depends on what percentage belongs to the former, as opposed to the latter. And whether or not their plans are for continuous New Quest, new map, new boss mob type content,… while not providing new professions, new weapons and skills.

Call me nuts, I am itching to give Anet money for an expansion, but it has to include new professions, new weapons, new skills. Increased expanded functionality

Speaking only for myself, if there is going to be no expansion, I’m ready to call it quits.

Tobias, the facts are that whilr you may have grown tired of your ranger, your Mesmer, your elementalist, etc etc etc somwhere out there, is a player that likes theirs.

As long as there are enought players that like Playing their rangers, their mesmer, their elemetalist, etc etc… there are players that have not " exhausted" the content that was here on release.

I tried to appeal to you, in terms I thought you might understand. But what I realize is, i just need to explain that while you may be tired of every class, and every weapon, and every skill..( judging from your responses to me..I simply wonder if you are serious, or if you have another agenda?), and therefore you personally may have “exhausted” all the content that came on release. There are people that haven’t.

I can understand the desire to latch on to the " Paid expansions suck, because we will all exhaust the content." but the fact is, the type of content that comes with paid expansions… New Professions, new weapons, new skills, new features…. because of their very nature, are only exhausted when enough players get exhausted of the game…that they close the servers.

The type of content that is being released with living story… new maps, new quests, new boss mobs… that is exhausted. Because Once you do a quest, you stop doing it.

I realize you are different, but…. there are players that play professions and do not exhaust professions, until they get so tired of the game that they move onto something else. The same for skills, and weapons.

This does not apply to you, I see that, but it does apply to me. I have not exhausted the professions I play, I have not exhausted the weapons they use, or the skills, or traits. I have not exhausted the armor, and it’s runes, the weapons and their sigils. The type of content that came on release, and that comes as a result of paid-for expansions.

You need to claim that " Oh content in a paid for expansion will be exhausted in a month" but that only applies to the type of content that Anet has been releasing in it’s " Living Story" and that it says is " expansion-like."

In My opinion, this argument is a non-argument, and is rather disingenuous at best.

As such, you can keep making it if you wish, personally I do not see it as a real issue.

chemiclord.3978:

Nerelith.7360:

So the issue for you is not so much that it divides the player-base, but that what divides the player-base is whether or not the content costs money, mainly because, maybe you do not wish to spend it?

Me personally I have no issue spending $39 + on an actual expasion, with all it entails. People forget MMO’s are still One of the cheapest forms of entertainment.

Let’s see, even if an expansion were to cost $60, after 2 years that comes out to $2.50 a month. To me, $2.50 a month doesn’t seem to be a major financial hurdle.

My issue is that the Living Story doesn’t particularly divide the player base to quite the same severity that not buying an expansion does. A person who somehow misses and decides not to buy the episodes STILL can access Dry Top and take part in the events there, for example.

But yes, I tend to be a little more lenient of details when my money is not a required part of the transaction. Is that a poor attitude? Maybe… but it is what it is.

Then you need to accept what it is. You are the one excluding yourself from content.

This is Like going to the ballpark, and you get a regular seat, but other people have Boxes they rent by the year, which probably give them extra amenities, their own bathroom, the equivalent of room service with someone to go get them their snacks etc….

They pay for these amenities. The spectator that chooses to NOT rent a Box excludes Himself from that " content".

Just because he doesn’t wish to rent a box, does that mean Boxes should not be made available to those that wish to rent them? because his choosing to NOT rent it, means he excludes himself from that " content"?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nerelith.7360:

Could it be that some of those, not all, but defenitely some, are not objecting to the idea of expansion, and are in fact just objecting to paying for it… and have seized on the " exhaustion of content in a month or two." simply as an excuse so they don’t have to admit.." I want it free" ?

No. I can and would repurpose the money I spend on trying other games or buying MTG to buy an expansion if it came out. The price is less an issue for me (currently) than feeling all it would do is shut up the complaints about being bored for a couple weeks before it started up again.

Notice I said " some". That means my observations do not apply to all. That they do not apply to you, doesn’t mean they do not apply to others.

Most of what would be part of a paid expansion never gets exhausted. No matter what they say … How does One exhaust New professions, anyone Exhaust the Mesmer or the Warrior yet?

I’m done with my mesmer. Also done with my elementalist too. Sorry, I just don’t like playing the classes so they might as well be exhausted.

Have you exhausted your Ranger?

How does One exhaust new weapons? Anyone exhaust their greatsword yet? Or their Short bow? Maybe the staff has been exhausted?

By all accounts, it’s wrong to use a longbow on a ranger so . . . guess that weapon is exhausted.

Did I say long bow? And the Point is Not a specific weapon, I am saying a weapon that was released at launch. The only players that have exhausted ALL the weapons released at launch, are players that no longer play.

New Maps can be exhausted, New Quests can be exhausted, even new Boss mobs can be exhausted. And isn’t this what Living Story delivers?

Which is why people want “expansion”, which would contain much of this stuff as the content and still get “exhausted” all the same. Just with more time since there’d be more of it all at once.

The fact that any new content will be exhausted seems to argue against any expansion. This is a non-argument. May as well cancel TV series, since the “content” will be “exhausted eventually.” Actually the shelf life of the average TV show is less than that of a paid for expansion of an MMO. You see it once, it’s exhausted.

And yet, we still see season after season of popular TV shows.

This " the content gets exhausted" is a non-issue. Since whether it is " days" for Living story" or " Months" for a paid for expansion…. the content that is exhausted .." New maps, new quests, new Boss mobs" IS what Living story focuses on.

What you would get with a paid for expansion…" New Professions, new weapons, new skills" never gets exhausted until every player stops playing, or the servers shut down.

It seems to me that some, not all, but defenitely some of those that are against a paid expansion, will say they are fine with it if it is delivered as part of Living Story.

Paid expansion is paid for. Living Story is free.

Some of those against paid expansion are not against the game getting an expansion. it seems to be the delivery mechanism that they are against.

Paid expansion is paid for. Living Story is free.

Could it be that some of those, not all, but defenitely some, are not objecting to the idea of expansion, and are in fact just objecting to paying for it… and have seized on the " exhaustion of content in a month or two." simply as an excuse so they don’t have to admit.." I want it free" ?

Most of what would be part of a paid expansion never gets exhausted. No matter what they say … How does One exhaust New professions, anyone Exhaust the Mesmer or the Warrior yet?

How does One exhaust new weapons? Anyone exhaust their greatsword yet? Or their Short bow? Maybe the staff has been exhausted?

How does One exhaust new skills? How many thieves have exhausted Cloak n dagger? Or How many mesmers have exhausted Null field?

New Maps can be exhausted, New Quests can be exhausted, even new Boss mobs can be exhausted. And isn’t this what Living Story delivers?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Kaz.5430:

Let’s imagine that an expansion pack might look something like this:

$60.00 (or 4800 gems)
———————————-
- 20x New Maps
- 2x New Races
- 2x New Storyline Quests
- 2x New Professions
- 2x New Weapon Types
- 20x New Utility Skills (per profession)
- 10x New Traits (per profession)

If you release this as a separate standalone expansion in the normal sense, then you create a portion of the world that cannot be visited unless you pay for the expansion.

This would create problems over time with the Living Story, because ANet would either have to release LS content that not everyone could play, or avoid any new areas.

You also end up with a series of traits and utilities that could be used in PvP but not available to everyone.

Personally I’d prefer this hypothetical expansion to be released in chunks.

e.g.

Everybody gets the following parts of the expansion for free
- 20x New Maps
- 20x New Utility Skills (per profession)
- 10x New Traits (per profession)

You can then optionally purchase (via a box in your local game shop, or via gems)

2x Race Expansions (available individually)
$10 (or 1600 gems) each
- 1x New Race
- 1x New Storyline Quest

2x Profession Expansions (available individually)
$10 (or 1600 gems) each
- 1x Profession

2x Weapon Expansions (available individually)
$5 (or 800 gems) each
- 1x Weapon Type

You still end up spending $60 or 4800 gems for the entire expansion, but the maps and skills/traits for core professions are available to everyone preventing divisions in the community.

This. I’d be alright with things being handled like this. The maps and core content can span the LS and paid content is still appealing.

I love Kaz’s idea. I think that if what you are going to include in the expansion is new Maps, that yes, they should Just be part of a Game update and released free of charge.

While other money-grubbing developers might see this as a way to compel purchase…i know that Anet wouldn’t..( you hear that Anet??? I believe in you!!!!)

And I think that this could be sold in chunks, so that people can buy what they like…

This is similar to what Rift does with new Souls. People that want the new races only could pay just for that, if they anted the new professions Only…same thing. And since it would be In $5 or $10 chunks…. the finacial barrier to entry would not be as steep as a “$60 for the whole box” Kind of thing.

Personally I do not see $60 as a barrier. Then again, I see the $60 in perspective. Been 2 years since game was released. $60 / 24 months = $2.50 a month.

It simply seems to me that the people objecting to a paid expansion, are complaining MORE about the Paid part.

Ayrilana.1396:

So what happens to the player base when they have exhausted all of the new content from an expansion within a month or two, like they do for each living story episode but in days, and then have nothing to do for the next year or two until the next expansion?

I have heard this false argument for some time now. That " New content In an expansion is exhausted in a month or two."

here’s a thought, are you still playing characters that came with the game at launch? Then yoiu have not exhausted that content have you?

If a new profession or two is released, you know when that content is exhausted? when Players stop playing that profession. If they release a new race or two, do you know when that content is exhausted? When players stop playing THAT content.

When an expansion is released, quests can be completed, and maps can be completed. So that content may be exhausted. The problem is, that there are many players that do not see " a new peofession" as content that can ONLY be exhausted when players stop playing it.

You expand the game, you give players NEW ways to play the fame. THAT content can ONLY be exhausted when people stop playing it. New professions, new races, new weapons and skills, can never be exhausted, until people stop playing them.

Kulvar.1239:

I want Arena.net to expand the universe, not stack new things and forgetting older things like WoW devs do.

New things are POINTLESS unless they can add them without forgetting the older things.

Also, lesser race will never be playable… An aquatic peaceful fat ball will do nothing on a battleground. A quaggan warrior is inconsistent. A no brain rat can’t became “second in command” of the Pact.

Do you realize what 30 to 40% of the current map size as new map represent ? How can they make the new attractive but prevent the old to be useless ? If you can answer this, it’s good. But make older content decay and rotting is worst than adding few new content.

WoW (many people like to compare to it anyway) have a rotting tactic.
What bring an expansion ?
New levels ! Go pex in the new area because it’s the only one granting enough XP
New stuff ! Since you have leveled up, all your old ultra optimise gear is useless and you must replace all.
New farm thing ! But to prevent you to go too fast or play too casually, here some things you must do everyday just to unlock ultimate allpowerful gear. (faction reputation, valliance token)

And suddenly, all previous content became totally pointless. And I don’t mention their bad habbit of forgetting new races and let them decay when they’re not new anymore.

You can now level up crafting without doing all “classic” work. Just go to the last expansion area and farm here ! Why bothering with crafting copper sword, iron sword, steel sword, mithril sword to level up and be able to make orichalcum sword ? Make orichalcum pot, orichalcum sting, orichalcum stick, and orichalchum nail instead ! It’s useless but you can sell them to an NPC for gold.

Also in the new area orichalcum is pretty common and it’s not a pain to gather all the orichalcum needed. Don’t bother with the price to buy all this orichalcum or gathering all of it, there are plenty of them !

Just an FYI, The skritt become more Intelligent the more of them you gather in the same place. Who knows, get enough of them together and you may have a Hive Mind smarter than the Asura, or The Charr.

So yes, in individual numbers they are kinda dumb…. but in huge numbers?

What I would Like to see is a hive mind character that occupies 8 bodies for example, as a playable race. While the challenges needed to make it playable, might be insurmountable, I believe the lore would support it, and it would be something totally new in MMO’s.

As for the Little aquatic furballs. While I can see that the idea of playing one doesn’t appeal to you, it does not mean others may not have a desire to play one. Just because theya re " minor races" now, doesn’t mean they cannot be made into playable characters…. Look at World of warcraft and Goblins.

Dayra.7405:

Start a new char of a class you know and go out, they are as easy with a brand new char, as with a lvl 80.

Start area’s have to be easy for starters.
- starters do not know the skills and their synergies already
- starters have to learn monster animations and dodge
- starters do not know (not have) the optimal weapon for a situation
- startes will will use armor/weapons badly under their current lvl, no jewellery
- …

As the starting areas have to tolerate all this without killing the new player to often they have to be much to easy for someone who is not doing these mistakes.

When the game was first released, the whole idea was that for a level 80, the entire game should become a level 80 zone. The entire point was to give players the option to NOT have to create a new character to experience low level maps they might have missed the first time.

World completion for a level 80, that has to do another races level 1-15 zone, was supposed to be as challenging for the level 80, as it is for the level 15 next to them.

This was the stated intent of the developers. it is clear that they have now shied away from this stated intent. Maybe possibly because they now find that too many players enjoy roflstomping and facerolling entire newbie zones?

Personally, I feel that Anet should do more, to carry out their stated intent about down-scaling. a level 80 in a level 15 zone should be just as challenged as the level 15 next to them.

I noticed a lot of players saying " I wanna be uber". I always thought that the point of playing a game, … any game is to be challenged. This would increase challenge. What is wrong with facing challenge In a game?

Tachenon.5270:

Karizee.8076:

Expansions are bad. Even Blizzard thinks so.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/19/blizzards-chilton-expansions-are-barriers-to-people-coming-bac/

Content is good however. Looking forward to how the big projects will roll out

Are they raising the level cap with the expansion? Does WoW do that? If so… ugh. I hate that.

If Anet sticks to what they did with Guild Wars we need not be concerned about level creep. The whole idea is to keep level 80, as cap, and add content from which a level 80 can be challenged. This is why I feel that when a level 80 visits a low level zone, they should be scaled down more. This way the entire game becomes a level 80 zone. This is what they promised at launch… would be nice if they stuck closer to their stated intent, but that’s another thread.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

All I can think of is that it’s better to have a portion of the playerbase divided than a portion of the playerbase not playing at all.

I agree 100 %. Those that make the " divided player-base" non-argument, act as if this " division" were being forced on them. If they are " divided" out , because they did not buy the expansion, that is something self-determined.

Secondly, as Devata said. The whole" divided player-base" argument was a misunderstanding of what Anet said about " stand-alone" games. Guild Wars: Factions for example. While " stand-alone" was an awesome concept that is what Anet said divided the player-base. That is what they said they would never do again.

Anet does not divide the player-base by offering expansions, the player-base divides itself by choosing to not buy the new expansions. People not wanting to pay for an expansion is not a compelling argument for why Anet should not offer one.

Since the release of UO… paid-for expansions have been offered, and some players buy it, and some don’t. Some buy it immediately, and some buy it later on. Fact is that there will always be a group of players that opts out of buying the new expansion. That is the choice they make, as is their choice. Just because that group exists doesn’t mean that everyone else shouldn’t get the option to choose to purchase.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(I will trot out my “East Karana Silk Farmer” bumper sticker if I need to.)

Loved the Karanas also. I still remember my first encounter with Grimfeather, that bird still owes me 50 platinum.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That depends on whether they can get to it when the new content is still being done often enough to make it “do-able”. Like how anyone coming late to Tower of Nightmares had a rougher time trying to do it since the bulk of people were finished with it.

That’s the division I’m somewhat more leery of.

The average expansion sells for $60 tops, most expansions can be as cheap as $29, as expensive as $49.

Let’s assume that Anet does an expansion that includes

1. 2 playable races
2. 2 new character professions
3. more character creation options
4. 25 to 40 % added to the world in terms of new maps, along with new quests to Put in them.
5. new skills
6. new weapons
   etc,etc,etc

Let us even say that the price they put on it is $60. That is $60 after 2 years worth of free content. That only costs $2.50 a month. It seems to me that what a Lot of the players that are against paid expansions are against, is paying for it.

Some say they love Living Story. I think it’s the fact that it’s free that they like.

Some of us do not like Living Story because of the actual story. I personally dis-like Living Story, because it is a Road-block to a paid expansion.

I rather pay $60 and get extra professions extra weapons, extra skills, etc… increased functionality. Expanded game-play.

I can understand that there may be players that dislike the idea of paying money. I simply feel that a paid expansion … is something MMO’s have always developed at some point in their life-cycle.

Maybe some people do not wish to pay for an expansion, well… That would be their choice. They have the option to not pay for the expansion, that doesn’t mean we should not have the option to pay for it ourselves.

By that argument no one would ever sell a Lambhorgini, or a Rolls-Royce. Not everyone will pay for one.

chemiclord.3978:

Galphar.3901:

On the dividing up of the player base, isn’t that happening now with Living Story? What I see in game is everyone farming Dry Top or just logging in long enough to do the new LS Ep and not returning until next update, rinse, repeat.

While this is true to some extent… you’re also not being charged for it, either.

So the issue for you is not so much that it divides the player-base, but that what divides the player-base is whether or not the content costs money, mainly because, maybe you do not wish to spend it?

Me personally I have no issue spending $39 + on an actual expasion, with all it entails. People forget MMO’s are still One of the cheapest forms of entertainment.

Let’s see, even if an expansion were to cost $60, after 2 years that comes out to $2.50 a month. To me, $2.50 a month doesn’t seem to be a major financial hurdle.

The problem with living story is, it is Not a " real" expansion. Since it doesn’t expand how i play. There are no extra professions, no extra weapons, no extra skills, no extra… anything. Just adding a map or two, and then putting quests in it, does not an expansion make, as I define expansion.

So maybe Living story is enough for many. maybe I am in the Minority. I have no issues with Not being in the majority.

For me, a paid for expansion gets talked about On webforums, and gives magazines a reason to put Gw2 on their covers. That draws publicity, which may just bring in new players.

One. I doubt that Video Game Magazines are gonna put " Living story season III" On their cover, But " Gw2 Expansion, new professions, new skills, new weapons… go to page 16!"

Two. For me, I admit, I grew as a gamer during the time that similar to " Publish or perish" NOT coming out with an expansion basically told your player-base." Maybe it’s time to move on." I am beginning to get that urge for a Gw2 expansion, And if I don’t get one …. WoD is around the corner, so is Archeage, so is EQ Next, etc etc etc… ( won’t even look into Wildstar, gw2 is my last NCSoft Title, I’m still hurt about CoH/V)

Maybe I am in the Minority. Maybe Anet has it all figured out. Maybe the game won’t lose a bunch of players because of no paid for expansion. Maybe Living story IS the new thing , and it will retain as many players as a paid-for expansion might have retained?

" Tune in for further developements"

Stooperdale.3560:

“The crux of my argument is this: I don’t believe the content that’s been added in the last 2 years is enough to justify not having an expansion, which i feel would add much needed life back into the world”

GW2 doesn’t have enough new content. All MMOs never have enough content. That’s true for games with expansions and games without expansions. Expansions do give a burst of activity but only for 1 month typically with about 11 months of decline (or grind) in between. The Living Story format does seem to retain players and the “where is the expansion?” threads only arise on the forums when the Living Story is not getting the updates, such as this week.

If you want to pay extra $ for development then go the gem store today and give some $. If you want me to pay extra $ for development then I’m sorry, I’m not likely to buy an expansion. I will be excluded from any content that you want packaged into a salable expansion.

I have heard this batted about :

Stooperdale.3560:

I’m not likely to buy an expansion. I will be excluded from any content that you want packaged into a salable expansion.

I have been playing MMO’s for quite some time now. And while I can understand that you would not wish to be excluded from any content available though a sold expansion. Whether or not you buy that expansion is your choice.

I am trying to find a polite way to say this and feel i am just messing it up.

Through all MMO’s I have ever played, …expansions came every couple of years… ( Gw2 is about due.). And the expansions would expand how the game was played, they would give players NEW ways to enjoy old content, along with new content.

Each time that an expansion came out, I had to ask myself. “Do I want to pay $20 to $30 for new maps, new professions, new skills… new mobs..etc?” and the answer was usually yes. I also understand that if a player doesn’t buy the expansion, and it includes New maps…then that player cannot group with friends that DID buy the expansion.

THIS is Not a reason why Anet should not provide a paid for expansion. If players do NOT wish to pay for the content, they are free to NOT buy it. But ..that is Not a reason for Anet to not give the rest of us the option. " But I won’t be able to explore the new content" is the price paid, for not paying the price of the expansion.