Guild Wars 2

Max Lexandre.6279:

Nerelith.7360:

Max Lexandre.6279:

Nerelith.7360:

Max Lexandre.6279:

Nerelith.7360:

Varakkys.2490:

foofad.5162:

It does not matter how many uses your original item now has after the patch. What matters is that the second item is now useless. You paid for a now useless item.

By the same logic, can I expect a full refund of all the money I spent on Guild Wars 1 when they finally close the servers down? Because, y’know, that Prophecies box and all those expansion discs are useless. I paid for a now useless item.

THIS

NOT THAT. One MMO shutdown is something we know it is going to happen the moment we buy it, the big majority when get the sequels after some time it shutdowns.

We’re talking about this MMO that is not under shutdown, it is changing and limiting Cash-Paid Items (Clothes), the items that are only gold-paid do not require refunds, doesn’t change the fact it damages the people who have put time and effort to get their things done, but when it’s about Gem Currency paid stuff being converted and limited to tonics? I won’t…. simply accept it.

Yes That! This is an MMO…. MMO’s change. That is a fact. We play an MMO with the understanding that the developer has a right to change any aspect of it they feel like changing at any time, and that doesn’t entitle any of the players… to anything.

No… the people that bought Lultiple copies of an item…are not entitled to anything.

When they log onto gw2. they understand that Anet has the right to change any aspect of the game they feel like changing, anytime they feel like changing it.

if a player has a hard time Understanding that, that is not Anet’s problem, and it is not Anet’s responsibility to shoulder that players burden that derives from his hurt feelings.

When i spent real cash to buy over 3k that i spent on Clothes, i spent because they were dye-able and i could mix visuals, i will not accept this change, this wasn’t items it dropped me while playing. ANet can change their own game, they have that right, as we have the right to get what we paid for, this remembers me those F2P game companies that decide to make changes that causes loss to their players and don’t care about, just because they can.

I really, really, really, don’t want ANet to be one of those companies.

what you chose to do is what you chose to do, that doesn’t mean that that ties Anet’s hands behind their back to continue providing what you paid for, no one FORCED you to pay real world Money. You also agreed that Anet can change any aspect of their game anytime they wished and that you agreed to it,….every time you log on. If suddenly you dislike it, you are not entitled to anything. You can uninstall the game. That is what you can do. but DEMAND refunds?

No you don’t have that right.

I will quote dcjester on this aspect:

“This is a virtual goods which, while nothing tangible, had no warning at all that it would be made useless in a sweeping change to a core piece of the game at large. At the time it was purchased, it was never mentioned that the item could go to a solid set of unmixable items when presented as mix and match upon release. In some way, it can almost, ALMOST, be seen as a bait and switch. Its loose and dirty in that ideal, but it could be thought of that way.”

If they have that right, they never warned me they had the right to make all the changes they wish to items in the Gem Store we already paid for. I wonder what would you say if you were one of the players who spent real money on many things that will now suffer changes for the worse.

you can quote him. but he is Not an authority. I understand you agree with him, but…

Just because you both agree doesn’t make either of you right.

the virtual goods you purchased are in Anet’s game. Anet can sell it ONE day one way, and then totally change How they sell it the next. it’s in the ToS.

You agree to this everytime you log in. Whether you likr it or not. I Understand it upsets you. but hey..that’s life.

Will Anet refund you for your supposed claimed losses? ( you lost Nothing by the way, that you do not see this is because you are part of a group of people that feel entitled to things you are not entitled to, simply because your feelings are hurt.)

They might,…. But only because they feel like doing it. Not because it is owed to anyone. … Not because anyone is entitled to it.

Max Lexandre.6279:

Nerelith.7360:

Max Lexandre.6279:

Nerelith.7360:

Varakkys.2490:

foofad.5162:

It does not matter how many uses your original item now has after the patch. What matters is that the second item is now useless. You paid for a now useless item.

By the same logic, can I expect a full refund of all the money I spent on Guild Wars 1 when they finally close the servers down? Because, y’know, that Prophecies box and all those expansion discs are useless. I paid for a now useless item.

THIS

NOT THAT. One MMO shutdown is something we know it is going to happen the moment we buy it, the big majority when get the sequels after some time it shutdowns.

We’re talking about this MMO that is not under shutdown, it is changing and limiting Cash-Paid Items (Clothes), the items that are only gold-paid do not require refunds, doesn’t change the fact it damages the people who have put time and effort to get their things done, but when it’s about Gem Currency paid stuff being converted and limited to tonics? I won’t…. simply accept it.

Yes That! This is an MMO…. MMO’s change. That is a fact. We play an MMO with the understanding that the developer has a right to change any aspect of it they feel like changing at any time, and that doesn’t entitle any of the players… to anything.

No… the people that bought Lultiple copies of an item…are not entitled to anything.

When they log onto gw2. they understand that Anet has the right to change any aspect of the game they feel like changing, anytime they feel like changing it.

if a player has a hard time Understanding that, that is not Anet’s problem, and it is not Anet’s responsibility to shoulder that players burden that derives from his hurt feelings.

When i spent real cash to buy over 3k that i spent on Clothes, i spent because they were dye-able and i could mix visuals, i will not accept this change, this wasn’t items it dropped me while playing. ANet can change their own game, they have that right, as we have the right to get what we paid for, this remembers me those F2P game companies that decide to make changes that causes loss to their players and don’t care about, just because they can.

I really, really, really, don’t want ANet to be one of those companies.

what you chose to do is what you chose to do, that doesn’t mean that that ties Anet’s hands behind their back to continue providing what you paid for, no one FORCED you to pay real world Money. You also agreed that Anet can change any aspect of their game anytime they wished and that you agreed to it,….every time you log on. If suddenly you dislike it, you are not entitled to anything. You can uninstall the game. That is what you can do. but DEMAND refunds?

No you don’t have that right.

By the way, they have a right to change anything in the game they wish, inclcuding the items you paid real world cash for.

Max Lexandre.6279:

Nerelith.7360:

Varakkys.2490:

foofad.5162:

It does not matter how many uses your original item now has after the patch. What matters is that the second item is now useless. You paid for a now useless item.

By the same logic, can I expect a full refund of all the money I spent on Guild Wars 1 when they finally close the servers down? Because, y’know, that Prophecies box and all those expansion discs are useless. I paid for a now useless item.

THIS

NOT THAT. One MMO shutdown is something we know it is going to happen the moment we buy it, the big majority when get the sequels after some time it shutdowns.

We’re talking about this MMO that is not under shutdown, it is changing and limiting Cash-Paid Items (Clothes), the items that are only gold-paid do not require refunds, doesn’t change the fact it damages the people who have put time and effort to get their things done, but when it’s about Gem Currency paid stuff being converted and limited to tonics? I won’t…. simply accept it.

Yes That! This is an MMO…. MMO’s change. That is a fact. We play an MMO with the understanding that the developer has a right to change any aspect of it they feel like changing at any time, and that doesn’t entitle any of the players… to anything.

No… the people that bought Lultiple copies of an item…are not entitled to anything.

When they log onto gw2. they understand that Anet has the right to change any aspect of the game they feel like changing, anytime they feel like changing it.

if a player has a hard time Understanding that, that is not Anet’s problem, and it is not Anet’s responsibility to shoulder that players burden that derives from his hurt feelings.

Varakkys.2490:

foofad.5162:

It does not matter how many uses your original item now has after the patch. What matters is that the second item is now useless. You paid for a now useless item.

By the same logic, can I expect a full refund of all the money I spent on Guild Wars 1 when they finally close the servers down? Because, y’know, that Prophecies box and all those expansion discs are useless. I paid for a now useless item.

THIS

foofad.5162:

Nerelith.7360:

foofad.5162:

Windwalker.2047:

I dont understand what he is LOOSING with this change?In fact he will be gaining the ability to get those weaps/armors on even more characters now!

He paid for a product which no longer works. If you buy two copies of the Grenth’s helmet off the gem store to use at some point on your characters, and you used one of them but not the other because you hadn’t gotten around to making your Necromancer yet, that second Grenth’s helmet no longer functions in any meaningful way. You get nothing for your gems.

that is because the first one he Bought now has an infinite Number of uses. So if he makes 5 alts… then each of THEM Now get FREE grenth helmets…should that person now have to pay MORE Money for the 3 free grenth helmets he got?

Look, Anet changed something… it happens. It says so on the box." Online experience may change "… if you come to an MMO and do not roll with the changes, maybe you do not understand how MMO’s work.

First off, your friend does not OWN 2 Grenth helmets… he paid for the use of the helmets they do not belong to him the way a pair of pants belongs to Him In the real world..Look over the TOS

Second the game reserves the right to change any aspect of the game any way they wish, at any time…. and if you do not agree with the changes you have the option to stop playing the game..but that is ALL you are entitled to.

If Anet decides to refund your friend, it is because they feel like it. not becaue it is OWED. Since some people are going around with this attitude, I would prefer Anet NOT refund anyone a dime. No one would appreciate it, and it sets a bad precedent.

It does not matter how many uses your original item now has after the patch. What matters is that the second item is now useless. You paid for a now useless item.

He paid so two of his characters could use a specific armor set. After the patch Both of those characters will be able to use the armor set, he got exactly what he paid for.

Businesses change all the time. At the time that he made those purchaes, was the purchase a good idea? THAT is what matters. What Anet did later is completely Irrelevant. So while I do feel bad your friend spend real world cash on two identical pieces of armor, and if only he had Known… he could have saved cash by waiting. As I said… Businesses change, some people benefit, some people think they are losing out.

Your friend has Not Lost anything. he got what he paid for when he paid for it. That there was a change AFTER he made his Purchase is Not Anet’s responsibility. They do Not have to shoulder any part of the burden because your friend now is upset over his purchase decision.

If someone bought two sets of the same exact armor, and had ONLY 2 characters that could use it. And had NOT used the second set yet. He paid to have the USE of two sets of armor. But because he ONLY unlocked ONE, only ONE character had that item’s use. The other did not, the item was still unlocked.

Now April 15th arrives, and he Logs In BOTH characters… and ..BOTH characters Now have use of this Item, when before Only ONE did. Does it really matter that clicking on the second set doesn’t do anything ? you say ’ the second set does Not work" Like some Incompetent lawyer.

if he were to create a third character that could make use of that gem shop bought Item….that third character Now has use of it as well, even though your friend ONLY Bought 2 of the item.

I can see that some people may be upset. but…. I shop at Macy’s… I Understand macy’s has sales all the time. I had Bought a Keurig coffee maker.. for $129… and a week later it went on sale for $99 the same model.

Does macy’s owe me 30 bucks? Nope. Might they credit My charge card if I explain what happened? they Might…. In fact …they did.

was it because they OWED me 30 bucks?? No…. it was because I am a valued customer, and Macy’s believes In bending over backwards taking care of valued customers. But Just because they CHOOSE to do it, does Not mean I am entitled to it.

many people here seem to feel theya re ENTITLED to refunds. No one is entitled to anything.

foofad.5162:

Windwalker.2047:

I dont understand what he is LOOSING with this change?In fact he will be gaining the ability to get those weaps/armors on even more characters now!

He paid for a product which no longer works. If you buy two copies of the Grenth’s helmet off the gem store to use at some point on your characters, and you used one of them but not the other because you hadn’t gotten around to making your Necromancer yet, that second Grenth’s helmet no longer functions in any meaningful way. You get nothing for your gems.

that is because the first one he Bought now has an infinite Number of uses. So if he makes 5 alts… then each of THEM Now get FREE grenth helmets…should that person now have to pay MORE Money for the 3 free grenth helmets he got?

Look, Anet changed something… it happens. It says so on the box." Online experience may change "… if you come to an MMO and do not roll with the changes, maybe you do not understand how MMO’s work.

First off, your friend does not OWN 2 Grenth helmets… he paid for the use of the helmets they do not belong to him the way a pair of pants belongs to Him In the real world..Look over the TOS

Second the game reserves the right to change any aspect of the game any way they wish, at any time…. and if you do not agree with the changes you have the option to stop playing the game..but that is ALL you are entitled to.

If Anet decides to refund your friend, it is because they feel like it. not becaue it is OWED. Since some people are going around with this attitude, I would prefer Anet NOT refund anyone a dime. No one would appreciate it, and it sets a bad precedent.

Eight Samurai.6840:

foofad.5162:

Nerelith.7360:

Eight Samurai.6840:

Nerelith.7360:

Eight Samurai.6840:

I have a guildie who is very upset that He spent months making money to buy multiple gem store items such as armor or weapon skins. To him, this feels like he had wasted months of his time on GW2 that he could have been doing other things now that the wardrobe is coming. I can sympathize with him and others who spent real money on the gem store to improve their looks. Just by making it unlimited does not mean their time had not been wasted anymore. I really do have to agree that anet should give refunds to these people if they request it.

So Anet decides that all His changes all the dyes he used on his character, are now account wide. And all the armor skins he bought to unlock it for that character, …are now account wide. He can in other words use the skins he paid Money for… and for free use them on alts… for example, and he has a nerve to be upset?

…

I Like the changes, it means I can easilly copy over all the skins that My mesmer unlocked, onto my elementalist and necromancer. All the dyes she bought, expensive ones Like Icing…Abyss…. I can save money by just using those On all my alts, not have to pay for each character to have abyss dye… if we do that math, that is a LOT of Gold saved.

I am confused. I do not see why your friend is complaining.

The point is that he spent real money to buy gems to buy the skins, but spent x-times as much as others did who only bought one skin. Anyone who did what he did paid more for the same product. When you spend real money for in game money and something goes wrong anyone would be upset.

I can understand that he is upset. What I am saying is, that he is Not automatically entitled to anything, simply because he is upset.

he CHOSE to buy in game gold with real cash? You stress this over and over. So what?

That does Not entitle him to a refund. Will Anet give him one? maybe they may, maybe they may Not. if they did I would send an email thanking them from the Bottom of My heart… because they do not owe your entitled friend a thing.

If it were me, I would Not refund it, simply because people feel they are entitled to refunds. As I said before… if you Buy a latte from starbucks for $3.99 do you come back the next week, and demand a refund if they are suddenly on sale for 50 cents less?

I feel bad your friend paid real world cash for multiple copies of the same item. But that doesn’t entitle him to a refund, No matter how badly he feels… “s*** happens.”

Your example isn’t even remotely applicable to the situation. There is no real life analog to this situation. The analog to your Starbucks analogy is “I bought some boots on the gem store, then they went on sale a week later.” There’s nothing wrong with that.

That’s also not what happened. What happened is that you bought three copies of a product, two of which have been taken from you as part of a redesign that allows you to infinitely make use of the third as long as you keep paying Anet for the privilege. They are taking it from you and not compensating you for it at all. That’s a problem.

Thank you, his answer was so condescending and false that I didn’t want to lash out at that person.

Her… Not his.

foofad.5162:

Nerelith.7360:

Eight Samurai.6840:

Nerelith.7360:

Eight Samurai.6840:

I have a guildie who is very upset that He spent months making money to buy multiple gem store items such as armor or weapon skins. To him, this feels like he had wasted months of his time on GW2 that he could have been doing other things now that the wardrobe is coming. I can sympathize with him and others who spent real money on the gem store to improve their looks. Just by making it unlimited does not mean their time had not been wasted anymore. I really do have to agree that anet should give refunds to these people if they request it.

So Anet decides that all His changes all the dyes he used on his character, are now account wide. And all the armor skins he bought to unlock it for that character, …are now account wide. He can in other words use the skins he paid Money for… and for free use them on alts… for example, and he has a nerve to be upset?

…

I Like the changes, it means I can easilly copy over all the skins that My mesmer unlocked, onto my elementalist and necromancer. All the dyes she bought, expensive ones Like Icing…Abyss…. I can save money by just using those On all my alts, not have to pay for each character to have abyss dye… if we do that math, that is a LOT of Gold saved.

I am confused. I do not see why your friend is complaining.

The point is that he spent real money to buy gems to buy the skins, but spent x-times as much as others did who only bought one skin. Anyone who did what he did paid more for the same product. When you spend real money for in game money and something goes wrong anyone would be upset.

I can understand that he is upset. What I am saying is, that he is Not automatically entitled to anything, simply because he is upset.

he CHOSE to buy in game gold with real cash? You stress this over and over. So what?

That does Not entitle him to a refund. Will Anet give him one? maybe they may, maybe they may Not. if they did I would send an email thanking them from the Bottom of My heart… because they do not owe your entitled friend a thing.

If it were me, I would Not refund it, simply because people feel they are entitled to refunds. As I said before… if you Buy a latte from starbucks for $3.99 do you come back the next week, and demand a refund if they are suddenly on sale for 50 cents less?

I feel bad your friend paid real world cash for multiple copies of the same item. But that doesn’t entitle him to a refund, No matter how badly he feels… “s*** happens.”

Your example isn’t even remotely applicable to the situation. There is no real life analog to this situation. The analog to your Starbucks analogy is “I bought some boots on the gem store, then they went on sale a week later.” There’s nothing wrong with that.

That’s also not what happened. What happened is that you bought three copies of a product, two of which have been taken from you as part of a redesign that allows you to infinitely make use of the third as long as you keep paying Anet for the privilege. They are taking it from you and not compensating you for it at all. That’s a problem.

Ok does he suddenly ONLY have ONE of the item? You said 2 were taken from Him. If he Bought three, and now he only has 1. I can see that he has a right to complain.

what happened was the Business Anet, changed so that what was a character bound item is now account bound…

Businesses change their Bisuness Models ALL the time. That doesn’t entitle your friend to a refund. I feel bad that he spent real world cash for these items, but..that doesn’t entitle him to a refund either.

Majic.4801:

Perhaps they can credit duplicate skin purchases toward the number of transmutation charges.

why? The People that bought duplicate skins for Multiple characters are not entitled to refunds.

Eight Samurai.6840:

Nerelith.7360:

Eight Samurai.6840:

I have a guildie who is very upset that He spent months making money to buy multiple gem store items such as armor or weapon skins. To him, this feels like he had wasted months of his time on GW2 that he could have been doing other things now that the wardrobe is coming. I can sympathize with him and others who spent real money on the gem store to improve their looks. Just by making it unlimited does not mean their time had not been wasted anymore. I really do have to agree that anet should give refunds to these people if they request it.

So Anet decides that all His changes all the dyes he used on his character, are now account wide. And all the armor skins he bought to unlock it for that character, …are now account wide. He can in other words use the skins he paid Money for… and for free use them on alts… for example, and he has a nerve to be upset?

…

I Like the changes, it means I can easilly copy over all the skins that My mesmer unlocked, onto my elementalist and necromancer. All the dyes she bought, expensive ones Like Icing…Abyss…. I can save money by just using those On all my alts, not have to pay for each character to have abyss dye… if we do that math, that is a LOT of Gold saved.

I am confused. I do not see why your friend is complaining.

The point is that he spent real money to buy gems to buy the skins, but spent x-times as much as others did who only bought one skin. Anyone who did what he did paid more for the same product. When you spend real money for in game money and something goes wrong anyone would be upset.

I can understand that he is upset. What I am saying is, that he is Not automatically entitled to anything, simply because he is upset.

he CHOSE to buy in game gold with real cash? You stress this over and over. So what?

That does Not entitle him to a refund. Will Anet give him one? maybe they may, maybe they may Not. if they did I would send an email thanking them from the Bottom of My heart… because they do not owe your entitled friend a thing.

If it were me, I would Not refund it, simply because people feel they are entitled to refunds. As I said before… if you Buy a latte from starbucks for $3.99 do you come back the next week, and demand a refund if they are suddenly on sale for 50 cents less?

I feel bad your friend paid real world cash for multiple copies of the same item. But that doesn’t entitle him to a refund, No matter how badly he feels… “s*** happens.”

Eight Samurai.6840:

I have a guildie who is very upset that He spent months making money to buy multiple gem store items such as armor or weapon skins. To him, this feels like he had wasted months of his time on GW2 that he could have been doing other things now that the wardrobe is coming. I can sympathize with him and others who spent real money on the gem store to improve their looks. Just by making it unlimited does not mean their time had not been wasted anymore. I really do have to agree that anet should give refunds to these people if they request it.

So Anet decides that all His changes all the dyes he used on his character, are now account wide. And all the armor skins he bought to unlock it for that character, …are now account wide. He can in other words use the skins he paid Money for… and for free use them on alts… for example, and he has a nerve to be upset?

…

I Like the changes, it means I can easilly copy over all the skins that My mesmer unlocked, onto my elementalist and necromancer. All the dyes she bought, expensive ones Like Icing…Abyss…. I can save money by just using those On all my alts, not have to pay for each character to have abyss dye… if we do that math, that is a LOT of Gold saved.

I am confused. I do not see why your friend is complaining.

P. S. As to dyes, Anet said if he had Bought more than 1 copy of a dye, he will recieve an unidentified Dye for each copy of a dye he purchased. I think this is very nice of them, to be honest.

I understand that maybe he purchased the same armor skin from the gem store for multiple characters. I can understand he feels entitled to a refund. But..No…. he isn’t entitled to one. If Anet does give him one, he should thank them for doing something they do not have to do. he is not entitled to it.

Sometimes you go to a store, and see a Game selling for 49 bucks… then 2 Months later the same game sells for 29…. should the store give him a 20 buck refund?

What about if 2 Months later they decide to Bundle that game with another game, so BOTH now sell for 49 bucks? do they OWE him the second game for free?

Yes sometimes businesses will change a price on an item, or they may change a package so it Includes other items, or drop the price. That does Not entitle the person that paid the older price to anything.

He paid a set price at a given moment for an item. it either was worth the price…. at the time …or it was not worth the price….at the time.

What Anet decides to do the very next day…. does Not make his decision different. he may be crying that he did Not know about the coming changes, but that doesn’t automatically entitle him to a refund.

Vargamonth.2047:

Nerelith.7360:

I agree. Most players only know , " zerg,zerg,zerg." So the question becomes. Is Zerg,zerg the playstyle the devs want for the game? if not, what will they do to encourage more diversity?
(snipped for brevity)
At that point..the " all i know is zerg zerg zerg." can ask themselves…" do i wish to improve, and expand how i play? or do i wanna whine Like a spoiled entitled individual,….or quit?"

Some players only know to use berseker gear and survive by killing things before they become a real threat while others are completely awful at dodging and only know to play things like PVT shoutheal and survive thanks to passive tools. Both gameplays are horrible.

I would like encounters like the proposed one because it’s mechanicaly more complex than what we usualy get.
I don’t think neither the condition users (almost every class can apply a good amount of conditions and with proper might stacking and other tools a power spec easily goes over 1k condition damage) nor the soft heals (heals tend to require stat investment, while other forms of support and control, which should more than enough to handle adds, don’t) are needed.
The encounter would be perfectly doable by a full berserker group properly using support (might stacks in order to raise the condition damage) and control (in order to handle the adds) and that’s the beauty of the game.

The problem with berserker is not about 5 berserker players being the best option; that’s the ideal situation for an action based combat and should never change.
The problem is about performing with this setup not being challenging at all for too much content and relying on the same “LoS and destroy” tactic too often.

About the build diversity … any game offering a wide build diversity will be subdued to a quite harsh meta. That’s the nature of PUGs.
Some specs will always singergize better with others, so players will massively go for a, both efficient and easy enough to perform with, meta setup..
Full berseker/damage teams being that meta is kinda weird as it shouldn’t be exactly an easy to play setup (PUGs still tend to go for suboptimal setups with tons of warriors because they survive easier) but most encounters are just too simple mechanic wise and extreely easy (for any spec).

Hence why I have said before. I would prefer to see the Devs improve Mob AI and Mob armor… maybe give them more toughness so that straight damage is not the answer… regen like the skelks is an option, to the point where the “Zerkers and Zerg” dynamic becomes less a speed-run and guaranty, and more iffy… because of the lack of Toughness and Vitality. (maybe more conditions? maybe less LoS stacking of Mob AI?). I feel that while this game does not demand The Holy Trinity in terms of dedicated classes… ie. Warrior Tank, Water Elementalist Back line dedicated healer, Thief, Fire Elementalist, etc DPS…

It does provide everyone the tools to play Damage, Control, Support.

As such, the Control and Support aspects are Under-utilized because the Damage is too effective. So nerfing Zerker’s and changing the Crit damage mechanics is but a good first step, the job is not done. They need to change Mob AI so that Control becomes something important to a group. So that Support has a place in dungeons.

Should an all damage group find it impossible to tackle a dungeon alone? No…but it should be more iffy. Players should know going in, that because of lack of toughness, and Vitality in their gear random deaths are likely. And that if they brought either players to handle support, or control… or Just have a build that brings these elements themselves. the dungeon would then be much more dependably finished, even if it’s not a speed run. In my opinion, no dungeon should be a walk in the park speed run.

To the extent that a dungeon can be soloed, can be duod, can be run as a walk in the park speed run by a group in full zerkers doing Nothing but zerkers and zerg all damage all the time… The devs are not giving us the product they promised, nor the product we deserve. We do deserve better, even if some…not all " zerkers and zerg or leave" type players think the Meta is holy. Someone suggested giving Mobs a Hotbar with skills like they had in Gw1. I think this would make the game better.

Ultimately this meta is bad for the game.

Xillllix.3485:

Go roll an super slow ele with no health and dysfunctional traits and see if you come back here crying about the OP warrior after.

I aply a warrio, just started Playing her. She is fun to play but, i do feel she is a bit OP. I played a mesmer, I played a thief, I also played an elementalist. And especially the elementalist felt a bit… of a chore til about 35 or 40, same for the Mesmer. The wattiot though is a breeze in comparison.

Anyone that says the warrior is not even a little OP is just deluding themselves. Maybe it’s not " OMG One hit win faceroll" OP… but it does need a bit of tweaking downward. Just the fact that last I heard it is THE most Popular class…. Kinda says something.

In the meantime, Boost Rangers and Engineers…. They need some dev love too.

eye floater.7140:

Anet started the game hoping they could erase the need (and want) for the holy trinity, but I think they’re realizing that it doesn’t really work.
Considering the lack of sustained and overall effectiveness of healing/toughness/healingpower in the game, in PVE combat no one uses anything but zerk gear. Why would they? As another player mentioned in another thread, slower enemy death = more opportunity for said mob or boss to 1-shot you. When you’re playing in that scenario where any boss ability can 1—2 shot you no matter your gear, why would you run anything but zerk? Vit, toughness, and healing power are so under-powered and ineffective that no one will bother with them in PVE. I’m assuming Anet did this so no roles would develop, i.e healer or tank. Dungeons have been relatively the same since launch: Everyone runs zerg gear, skipping the mobs you don’t need to kill, dodging the massive attacks from bosses, and finishing the dungeon with no need for defense of any sort. Honestly, the only defensive ability you actually need is dodge.
Anet has started to realize that there’s not enough build diversity, so they nerfed crit damage a bit and are starting to buff survival and healing skills for almost every class(including the extra healing skill given to everyone some time ago). I just don’t see this whole lack of the trinity idea ever really working that well. The game has players, sure, but I bet there would be quite a bit more if this current system wasn’t in place. I feel like eventually, it’s gonna just come down to that.
Maybe originally they just wanted to scrap it to be new and different, and probably try and bring in more casual players with the lack of hardcore content as well.
Honestly, I think a LOT of players would be happy if the trinity got reinstated somehow, or slowly implemented. I do think though, that WVW and PVP would not benefit from that change. I think they’re fine how they are. Anyway, the trinity only really works for PVE. I doubt Anet will ever admit their shortcomings though, I don’t think I’ve seen any developer ever admit they were wrong with something major like that.

EDIT: I know lots of people would hate it if the trinity slowly gripped the game. I know lots would love it as well, but I just think Anet needs to do SOMETHING in order to fix certain gameplay aspects. Personally, I would love the trinity to happen, but would it be good for the game and the majority of the players? That, I don’t know. I hope it would be.

No..Just No. The game was released with the philosophy of freeing us from pre-defined classes. While I can see the game needs More Build diversity, and for this it needs to do what it can so that Control, and Support are viable Playstyles. Pull away from the zerker and zerg…damage above all dynamic. I do not see this as " The Holy Trinity" returning.

This game doesn’t need a Holy Trinity. To the OP plenty of games have The Holy Trinity. World of Warcraft does it quite well. All I can say is, if for an MMO to be enjoyable for you, it must have a holy trinity, you shouldn’t have bought this game, since NOT having one, was aHuge selling point, and advertised heavilly when it was released.

You bought the wrong game. Cheer up.. There are many games that still incorporate The Holy Trinity. Why not Just play one of those, Instead of try to change this into what it isn’t?

Nike.2631:

Nike.2631:

Of course not. Because in any MMO population you can rule of thumb that only about 20% enjoy support/healing gamplay, and about 10% enjoy the demands of good tanking (which is far more about positioning and control than it is about survivability)

cranked.3812:

So, let me get this straight. Your estimation is that 20% of the people like playing tank/support roles.

I’d love to see you show your work on how 20% + 10% = 20%, but do go on…

Nevermind the fact that this game doesn’t have those roles and was designed so that every class has the ability to do all those things.

K, first off, the game does have a healing support role and a ton of tools to realize it. And I’m as happy as anyone it doesn’t have a tanking because tanking is conceptually stupid. What it does have is Control which is really the property you wanted out of your tank most days anyway. And you’re quite right that all professions are able to bring these elements to the table. Not sure how that’s an argument they don’t exist…

So, basically, you want the minority of the players to have everyone play the same builds they do?

Not at all. I’m saying I look forward to content the can be handled by any group if they are sufficiently skilled but yields most easily to various combinations. I don’t want one-meta-fits-all. I want “the meta for each scenario is the meta for that scenario.”

What ever happened to the concept of democracy?

You mean mob rule where since most people like humans we just dump the other races and since there are more Ranger player than any other profession we can safely dump all other professions? That sounds fun… for people who like human rangers… You’re making the exact same arguments for roles – “there are more damage dealers so we should ignore everything else.”

I have a feeling you run god awful builds and you were one of those players that keeps trying to join zerk only groups and was subsequently kicked.

And I have a feeling you hope that so you can belittle and ignore me… or that my assessment of what is going on in the game is untrue so your particular little boat need not fear being rocked. It doesn’t matter what I play, we’re talking about the game that IS and the direction it can already be seen to have been going. The sand is over there, feel free to stick your head in it.

I have, simply because I like the role in other games, tried max-healers built on every profession. Some are much stronger than others but all of them are unnecessary in most content, and active negative in some. I moved on to what works because its what works. I’m a min-max monkey above all other role allegiance. But boring simplistic meta is boring and simplistic. A lot like human rangers.

When I first heard of the release of gw2, what drew me most was the idea that there would be No predefined classes assigned to The Holy Trinity. Instead there would be Damage, Control, and Support as roles, that any class could fill, and would be able to change to any role it felt Like filling. That seems to be where the devs are going with the upcoming changes.

That is what I expected when I pre-ordered. It is mostly true in open world PvE. But Not as Much in dungeons. The question to me is… Is this idea of 3 roles … playable by any class, to be abandoned the moment someone enters a dungeon simply because the current environment encourages a meta of " zerkers and zerg"? or should the environment be changed, adjusted, so that it falls in line with what the devs intended On release?

blakdoxa.7520:

Nerelith.7360:

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If the devs see that the meta is " wear zerker’s and zerg!" and decide that maybe other gear should be as viable, or other playstyles should be a viable. Maybe Conditions… etc. And if the devs decide that the way to counter the meta is to weaken zerker gear, and nerf Crit damage..( as it appears they are doing, but that is just my opinion.) you need to accept that " The Meta" is Not something Holy, and sacrosanct.

One can almost hear your tone… may as well scream.." they do not woreship the meta…HERESY!!!"

I will say it clearly. If the Meta has to change or go under the bus, so that other playstyles aree as viable. And as it appears the devs agree…then the Meta changes.

The whole" Zerkers and Zerg"…if making the game fun for everyone else means this Meta gets tossed under the bus. it gets tossed Under the bus.

I Love how when a game change threatens something worshipped by some , the threat " we are gonna quit." seems to come up. I am glad that game developers realize that those are empty threats. And for everyone that leaves because they dislike changes that make the game enjoyable for everyone, there are probably 8 to 10 people that seeing that their playstyle is Now more viable…choose to stay.

Just saying…. 3,000,000 players is a lot of players. Some zerker wearing zergers… not all…seem to be entitled and spoiled. if they leave, i sincerely doubt they’ll be missed. The rest… you included I imagine, will simply, in a mature manner accept the changes to the meta, and adjust. or not.

After the update is very unlikely the status quo will change. If the devs wanted to really change the meta they would make crit damage a flat multiplier (crits are 50% or 75% increased dmg) with no way to increase it. This means all critical hits would do the same damage and nothing more. Removed from all gear/food/etc and replaced by some “cheese” stat like vitality, toughness, or healing power.
This might allow other builds into the meta since it’s not all about crit dmg anymore.

Instead we have Anet being indecisive and we have this straddling the fence to appease both side, those against “zerk” and those for “zerk.” They aren’t making any real significant change to force the shifting of the meta.

Just because a solution to the meta problem is Not the solution you propose doesn’t mean it is not a solution to the meta problem. I can see How the devs wish to weaken the " zerkers and zerg" meta, while Not tossing out the baby with the bath water. They want to give players the chance to decide how much crit damage they do. That is not the problem. The Problem is, that crit damage and zerging is so effective, nothing else makes sense In some situations.

The best way for this to change is for the devs to adjust Mob AI, and Mobs so that " Zerker’s and zerg " without any CC or healing becomes suicide. But I think this would be harder to do , than simply adjusting Crit damage, and nerfing Zerker gear.

Also…. while nerfing zerker gear, and adjusting crit damage so it is less …which would make other geat and playstyles more viable is NOT a perfect solution, it is a step in the right direction.

I played gw1 since it was released. Anet knew what they were doing then, they know now. And I have faith this is Not the ONLY thing that is gonna be done to reduce the effectiveness of " zerkers and zerg." just the first. And as with all good things, they want to tweak the game… not bash it and destroy it, so changes will be implemented slowly… and play-tested… and play-tested some More.. maybe they weaken crit gear more… maybe less…but slowly, a real, and effective solution to the meta problem will arise. " Zerker’s and Zerg" is only good for zerkers. And… Zerkers are not the only players paying to play this game.

Vargamonth.2047:

Nike.2631:

Missing the point – you’re describing content/changes that have failed. Any time the best solution is “an entire party of me” the content design has failed to encourage diversity. Ideally you want the prefight check list to read more like:

“Ok, we need two people who can dish conditions to bust the shield, a straight direct damage Zerk on the adds because their armor is paper but they hit like trucks so burn them quick, a ranged character who can both hit the boss while the shield is down and still stay by the switch, and some soft heals mostly with the Zerk on those adds but ready to react if anything goes off the rails. Take a minute to double check your traits and consumables, then we rock this.”

You’re describing a content that I would wholeheartly welcome but which, sadly, is far beyond the capabilities of GW2 playerbase.

I agree. Most players only know , " zerg,zerg,zerg." So the question becomes. Is Zerg,zerg the playstyle the devs want for the game? if not, what will they do to encourage more diversity?

Then the next question becomes if the devs wish to encourage diversity, will the community embrace the changes because it leads to a Much better game for all? or whine cause their prefered Playstyle is being nerfed?

Personally I would embrace and adapt to something that would improve the gaming experience for all.

Yes there are players that as of this moment could not play as they would be expected in the example above. But I would still welcome the changes that would make the Playstyle in the example a More common thing. At that point..the " all i know is zerg zerg zerg." can ask themselves…" do i wish to improve, and expand how i play? or do i wanna whine Like a spoiled entitled individual,….or quit?"

blakdoxa.7520:

Nerelith.7360:

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blakdoxa.7520:

Nerelith.7360:

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

snipped for bervity…

And I think you meant “crap dies too slow” to conditions.

I said. " Crap dies too fast. to Bleed, poison, or burn anything." the last word is there for a reason. What I mean is…. that why bother bleeding, poisoning, or burning anything when crap dies too fast for that to make a difference?

snipped for brevity

So. In addition to making the fights last longer by reducing damage, the margin of error increases. That in turn increases the chances of player deaths and possibly wipes. Not only does that make things even longer, players may very well abandon the fight or instance.

The game doesn’t become harder but more tedious.

Also, I don’t understand whether this is a thing about people being rejected from parties Instead of making their own parties with friends or guildies.
If you’re going to PUG one is expected to adhere to the meta…

There’s “enjoyment” and “fun” found by not playing with people who stick to the meta but now it’s “throw the meta under the bus” because no one (the meta) accepts my spec and playstyle?

You can play your build, your way. You just won’t be able to play it with everyone out there because you’ll run into people who are definitely adverse to your build and playstyle.
So?
Just play with others and go at PvE at your own pace with those that play in a similar way to you.

I’ll say it clear, if you haven’t picked up on it, you don’t have to adhere to the meta.

It’s killing me that this is turning into some personal vendetta against the meta…

If the devs see that the meta is " wear zerker’s and zerg!" and decide that maybe other gear should be as viable, or other playstyles should be a viable. Maybe Conditions… etc. And if the devs decide that the way to counter the meta is to weaken zerker gear, and nerf Crit damage..( as it appears they are doing, but that is just my opinion.) you need to accept that " The Meta" is Not something Holy, and sacrosanct.

One can almost hear your tone… may as well scream.." they do not woreship the meta…HERESY!!!"

I will say it clearly. If the Meta has to change or go under the bus, so that other playstyles aree as viable. And as it appears the devs agree…then the Meta changes.

The whole" Zerkers and Zerg"…if making the game fun for everyone else means this Meta gets tossed under the bus. it gets tossed Under the bus.

I Love how when a game change threatens something worshipped by some , the threat " we are gonna quit." seems to come up. I am glad that game developers realize that those are empty threats. And for everyone that leaves because they dislike changes that make the game enjoyable for everyone, there are probably 8 to 10 people that seeing that their playstyle is Now more viable…choose to stay.

Just saying…. 3,000,000 players is a lot of players. Some zerker wearing zergers… not all…seem to be entitled and spoiled. if they leave, i sincerely doubt they’ll be missed. The rest… you included I imagine, will simply, in a mature manner accept the changes to the meta, and adjust. or not.

Latinkuro.9420:

Nike.2631:

And lo, the meta is being forcibly rearranged. I don’t think speed runners are wrong to do what they do in the current environment. I think they just better get used to the idea the Devs are going to keep hammering on that environment until that strategy is no longer sound.

even if they nerf it to the ground the new speed running will simply be
let’s figure out which team comp gives us the best possible clear time now that pure beserker parties have gone the way of the dinosaur. (not that that would ever happen)

I have no problem with that. Then the challenge is for the developer to balance out the game mechanics in a way that leads closer and closer to where any player might have a Niche In a group…

I would still like to see actual Mob AI changed to make content challenging enough that other forms of play are more viable than just zerg , zerg, zerg. Thsi IS a game mechanics problem, that the devs should Look into. It would make it where even if a group wanted to go full zerker…. they might have to either briong CC or heals build players, or incorporate these skills in their own Builds. I see this as a Gw2 weakness.

But Until that is done, to just " well, let things be as they are, because nerfing zerker builds is not a perfect answer." is just zerker build players crying cause the devs are just weakening their play style.

The fact that weakening zerker playsstyle may make other playstyles viable is not something a Lot of zerker’s care about.

But as I said. This isn’t all about the zerker build player. There are other players out there, that have other ideas, besides " wear zerkers and zerg!!!"

blakdoxa.7520:

Nerelith.7360:

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

This!!! The " Go zerker or go Home" meta build has to go… for the sake of the game.

While I hate nerfs… and would have liked to see other ways to make zerker gear and the crit damage mechanic less effective, this is the most direct way, and according to occam’s razor, may be the best.

No other gear matters, no other builds matter. Conditions? Why bother? crap dies too fast to bleed , poison, or burn anything. And the reason is…. kitten …crit damage kills stuff in a few seconds.

I know many people like knowing they are doing " UBER DAMAGE look at my kitten!!!" Not all, but some… but..Longer fights are BETTER fights. There would be a greater demand for strategy, and tactics. And while I think the whole." Bosses cannot be CC’d" thing has to go… and the " 25 stacks of bleeds…etc." is crap… This is a good first step. Zerker gear should do more damage than other gear,….but if it makes all other gear wearers unwanted In group encounters…then there is NO way you could think this would not be nerfed. I am just amazed it took this long. But hey, better late than never.

And I think you meant “crap dies too slow” to conditions.

I said. " Crap dies too fast. to Bleed, poison, or burn anything." the last word is there for a reason. What I mean is…. that why bother bleeding, poisoning, or burning anything when crap dies too fast for that to make a difference?

See here is where your argument falls apart. You say all that will happen is mobs will just take Longer to kill..and it won’t mean a thing. But someone ELSE said." the longer a fight lasts..the more chances of being killed by the mobs" EUREKA…that person gets it.

See maybe you are so uber-awesome..that nothing in gw2 can Kill you, because your hand-eye coordination, and superior thinking + knowledge base of all your skills is such that you are always just jumping out of the way as the One shot kill blow lands…or using the right skill at all times….

but…. Not everyone is equally skilled.

So yes.. a Longer fight…on average, with an average player in a group.. means that you need to stategize a Little more. Would i like to see Mob AI improved? of course..but waiting for Mob AI to be improved as the ONLY solution to a problem that needs fixing now is just… irresponsible.

This addresses the " Zerker is King, Go Zerker or go home" meta most directly. Maybe the numbers will need adjusting.

As to players that " rage quit" over the issue… good riddance. All they do is unbalance the game chasing FoTM builds, whining on the forums when their particular EZ Mode is found and adjusted, Ok.. nerfed. And make the game harder for those seeking vatiety to enjoy.

This is NOT all about the zerker wearer. he or she is not the Most important person in this game. There are many of us out there, that do not wish to ONLY wear zerker’s or get lost. We also payed to play this game.

So don’t let the Perfect be the enemy of the good. Saying " This doesn’t solve the problem." doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be implemented. It’s a good start.

DeadlySynz.3471:

People just like to play certain builds. Those that play zerker builds will always play them, you can’t force them into something else. Point being, they kill their build off or alter it in such a way that they don’t like the numbers showing up anymore, they are more likely to quit rather than adjust to a build they don’t like.

Not true. You will always have Min-maxers that do not play a build…. " because I Like it." but because it is the easiest way to put out the most damage. That is what " min-maxer" means.

Yes you will Not affect most Crit build players. You will also not affect most conditions playrs. These people play what they play because they enjoy it.

But…. Like Posting a LINE in Vegas on a zero – sum game… if you can post the right odds so the Min-maxers split down the middle…. then you can have a better game. Suddenly you may not have perfect equity between crit and conditions Just as an example….but if you can make it so hard for the min-maxer to know for sure… which build is Most damaging with least effort… maybe they may…split down the middle…

I play conditions on my necro,…I hate the ax. I play conditions on my mesmer. I am aware that neither is gonna be welcome in a dungeon… I also know i am " Not optimal." so yes, you have a point… Crit players will not change, neither will conditions players…but the Min-maxer might.

Second as to " they will just leave the game." that’s a Load… after all.. everyone that threatens to rage quit over some mechanics change, how many actually mean it? More often than Not." I’m gonna rage quit " is Just an empty threat.

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

This!!! The " Go zerker or go Home" meta build has to go… for the sake of the game.

While I hate nerfs… and would have liked to see other ways to make zerker gear and the crit damage mechanic less effective, this is the most direct way, and according to occam’s razor, may be the best.

No other gear matters, no other builds matter. Conditions? Why bother? crap dies too fast to bleed , poison, or burn anything. And the reason is…. kitten …crit damage kills stuff in a few seconds.

I know many people like knowing they are doing " UBER DAMAGE look at my kitten!!!" Not all, but some… but..Longer fights are BETTER fights. There would be a greater demand for strategy, and tactics. And while I think the whole." Bosses cannot be CC’d" thing has to go… and the " 25 stacks of bleeds…etc." is crap… This is a good first step. Zerker gear should do more damage than other gear,….but if it makes all other gear wearers unwanted In group encounters…then there is NO way you could think this would not be nerfed. I am just amazed it took this long. But hey, better late than never.

draconx.3102:

Let’s consider a mesmer in full berserker gear, with scholar runes, and a typical build with 30 points in dueling. We need to make some assumptions because I don’t see all the necessary information is in the blog post:
…….

……. ( snipped for Brevity)

…….

or the 10% figure is pretty misleading.

Edit: Fixed damage reduction calculations I think.

Me I am glad to see crit damage reduced, whether by 10 % or 20 %. I happen to feel that there are other forms of damage, and no one uses them. Why? because the way things are currently.,..precision and crit damage is King.

There are so many different gears available… and yet it " go zerker or go home."

I am sure that this is not what the devs intended. After all, if it were, there would only be zerker gear, and one type of damage… Crit.

Now while I agree that the devs have a right and an obligation to balance out the differing types of damage, I also think that there are other things they could be doing along with the precision and ferocity changes. Adding mobs that have High armor but a susceptibility to conditions would be One as an example. So having all zerker groups would be a Lot more of a challenge. maybe then + vitality + toughness gear would make sense.

I know all the zerker wearers High crit players are gonna fume. But… MMO’s need balance, and not just between classes… Why wear carrion? Why wear Soldiers?

No, I happen to think in My opinion that the crit damage changes are a good first step..but so far, only a good first step..I’d like to see more done.

Algreg.3629:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Algreg.3629:

every week the same thing. I think I am done arguing, so allow me to adopt the general disrespectful answer: Go play WoW.

Many people I met on my journey through GW2 actually returned to WoW.

Now tell me please how this will help this game exactly? Losing players is probably the last thing ANet wants.

battling the King on his own turf sure would help, eh?

I agree here. It seems that WoW players cannot shake the arrogant idea that Only WoW players exist. And if WoW players leave, a game must fail. " The WoW players returned to WoW, the game will fail now!!! get the WoW players back…turn this into WoW."

See a Lot of WoW players do not realize some of us played MMO’s before WoW was released. Some of us know that a game doesn’t have to be a WoW clone to be successful. But for many WoW players this is heresy…after all.." WoW was the first MMO" … right? lol…

To the OP: This is not WoW, this will never be WoW, if you want to play a game Like WoW, go back to WoW, it does the whole.." MMO Lite" thing better than anyone else. I remember EverQuest. The first one…THAT was an MMO. But for players Like you… everything that made THAT game awesome would make you scream." This is nothing like WoW, the WoW players will leave…then the game will fail!!!"

tl:dr… Say no to The Holy Kittening Trinity.

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand the mentality of people wanting to turn this game into another WoW clone.

If GW2 is “so bad” and “WoW’s endgame is very much so superior to GW2’s”, what are you even doing here? Play WoW or the numerous WoW clones. Its like not liking a orange for not being more like apple… If you want an apple, dont eat an orange.

This game was specifically advertised to deliver something other than the WoW clone box “have nothing new for months and years on end” expansions. Believe it or not there are a majority of players that do not come to these forums that may enjoy GW2 for it has promised to deliver, something different then the close minded reskined holy trinity.

There are plenty of holy trinity games out there for you. Not so many games that can offer the experience GW2 offers for many players. Say no to WoW cloning.

THIS

Hawke.9013:

Crossaber.8934:

It is called “Holy Trinity” for a reason, you need to worship her and follow her rules tight to works. It is a MMO religion, a faith.

To make it work, by the cost of freedom. Freedom to build your class, freedom to create better combat mechanics.

I am not a believer, and GW2 is not a religion, so NO, this game is a minority out there for non-believer, are you suggesting to kitten away our freedom with your believe?

Cross

No, there is freedom in the trinity. You can specialize your dps as in condi/crit whatever you like. If anything theres less freedom with out it, as you have to take into account that you’re going to get hit, so you need toughness, that takes out of your damage, you have to heal yourself and others, so that takes out of other things you might want to build yourself into.

You have an opinion, but its wrong. Allow us to diversify ourselves within the trinity, rather than making everyone a tank/dps/healer.

Soujnds Like the Double-Speak of 1984. “Feel free to explore your freedom, as Long as you wear the chains of the Holy Trinity” I mean wtf?

I Play a mesmer in berzerker gear. I also play a Mesmer in Carrion gear. The gear I wear id up to me. The way i play is also up to me. I do not see this embracing of The Holy Trinity as leading to any type of freedom. Even your example shows it… be a rogue, and you are free to choose between being a Criticals DPS, or a Conditions DPS, or maybe a Power build DPS… um… freedom as long as you embrace The Holy Trinity role your class has to be relegated to?

I have seen elementalists tank. I have seen elementalists heal. I have seen elementalists..even..umm wow, they can also do DPS.

Maybe the Trinity exists within the game as concepts for those that do not even try to look outside the box. But there are other game play styles for those that do look outside it.

And even for those that do not, and want to follow One of the Trinity paths…. ie. Tanking Rogue, Healing elementalist…crowd control Ranger… etc…. the Freedom even if they limit themselves to the trinity roles, comes from being able…. to carry out that role, with whatever class they wish. Will there always be Optimal combos? will there always be Optimal builds? of course there will. But Gw2 doesn’t demand an Optimal Build to play…. it seems some players demand it though…of themselves, and unfortunately…of everyone else.

So yes… in my opinion The Holy Trinity is a religion, and many worship it…. as for me..Thank The Six I am an atheist.

PS. How can someone else’s opinion be wrong? you can argue about whether facts are right or wrong. An opinion is a personal belief or observation, it is PERSONAL. Therefore you may agree or disagree with it, you cannot say it is WRONG. That you try to say his opinion is wrong, just shows you don’t Understand the difference between fact… and opinion.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Nerelith.7360:

I Played WoW for years as well. Played a class to level 80, forget the name of the class. Had that Butt slapping succubus pet… quick someone help me.

Anyway. I digress. I got bored, I Played BC… and i just found it to be a chore to play. The sad fact is, the main reason I played was… I had friends i liked hanging out with that also played WoW, and refused to play anything else.

When Gw2 came out, I knew i would like it. I had been anticipating it. I told My friends, and they were ’ well, have fun, we’ll see you when you come back…"

There were many things about WoW that I grew to dislike. There were many reasons I was considering just uninstalling it off My computer.

I think the thing that finally became the straw that broke the camel’s back for me was the Player base arrogance that came about because of the number of players.." See ya when ( not if… never if) you come back "…. I said my goodbyes, and have never been back since.

The Mysoginy is another big issue for me…" oh you’re a woman… kitten…. go make me a sammitch, and then bl** me."

I think that to pay a Monthly to be treated thusly was just adding insult to injury.

What keeps me Playing gw2 is, the more mature player base, the less rampant Misoginy and homophobia, and the more helpful… less arrogant playerbase.

A warlock. And if you were 80, that would place you at WoTLK which came out over 4 years ago. You’d find that a lot had changed and in some ways holds closer to the manifesto than this game does.

As for the community, you’ll find that in every game. Try interrupting someone’s champ train or dungeon and you’ll see what I mean.

Thanks On the Warlock thing. And No,…that would Not place me at WoTLK, I did play Burning Crusade. When I said 80, I meant " level cap" whether it’s 85, or 90 is irrelevant. I Played to cap..I got Bored. I also find that while Misoginy and Homophobia is present in every MMO. it is not present to the extent it is in WoW.

WoW had players that would say the most hateful things on chat. Directed at women, at gays, at people of color ( me being a lesbian latina… you can see How MY experience of WoW differs from yours? ) and thefact is… In general… the Player base on Gw2, does more to shout down the hate speech, than ever was done on WoW.

With the new “Pandas & Pokemon” expansion you can see that Blizzard is appealing to more and more immature players, younger players… someone else’s " let me Put My child in front of the Internet babysitting machine, and Not Monitor them" kids.

I said it before, just because the game has huge numbers doesn’t make it better. That’s like saying that a happy meal is better than A Surf-and-turf meal at a local steak restaurant. And at least for me…. the community, and how the developers police it, is a major ingredient as to what I play. WoW I Lost Interest in ages ago. The gameplay? dated, but still might be considered good. But the player base?? if you think the WoW player base is the same as that in other MMO’s. you are either in denial… or… well your head is…. in sand.

I Played WoW for years as well. Played a class to level 80, forget the name of the class. Had that Butt slapping succubus pet… quick someone help me.

Anyway. I digress. I got bored, I Played BC… and i just found it to be a chore to play. The sad fact is, the main reason I played was… I had friends i liked hanging out with that also played WoW, and refused to play anything else.

When Gw2 came out, I knew i would like it. I had been anticipating it. I told My friends, and they were ’ well, have fun, we’ll see you when you come back…"

There were many things about WoW that I grew to dislike. There were many reasons I was considering just uninstalling it off My computer.

I think the thing that finally became the straw that broke the camel’s back for me was the Player base arrogance that came about because of the number of players.." See ya when ( not if… never if) you come back "…. I said my goodbyes, and have never been back since.

The Mysoginy is another big issue for me…" oh you’re a woman… kitten…. go make me a sammitch, and then bl** me."

I think that to pay a Monthly to be treated thusly was just adding insult to injury.

What keeps me Playing gw2 is, the more mature player base, the less rampant Misoginy and homophobia, and the more helpful… less arrogant playerbase.

I hit level 20 with my necromancer ( human…if it matters)… and I have been doing Staff + wells, while i do like the play style i find i need to drop the wells on the Mobs to get consistent use of them. I have tried to " guilde " the Mobs to wells, but found it’s not really something I can do consistently. ( may be a l2p issue I admit, if it is, I will put more effort into it.).

I do not like the ax, and to be honest it doesn’t feel like my mental concept of what a necromancer should be. I have always seen a necromancer as a minion summoning DoT caster. Hence the bias for conditions.

In spite of the fact that Minions are unpredictable, and unreliable. I wonder if it would make levelling safer and faster than a wells staff necromancer?

Can someone post a Link to a good build of Both so i can compare?

Thanking in advance.

I personally have found I have a lot of fun with Precision, Toughness, Condition Damage gear. I picked traits that make My illusions criticals cause bleeding, and make all my shatters cause Confusion. Two good sources of info out there that i have found beneficial for me are Osicat, with his shattercat build, and Mr Prometheus with his Comprehensive Video guide to mesmer. Mr prometheus’ guides are 4, but they are worth watching as he summarizes the benefits of all the weapons and offhands. All heal skills, Utility skills elites, and traits… How they interact.

Before I saw his videos I also used the staff to kite, and yes, found it slow going. AFTER, I learned to use the staff to pull 2 or 3 mobs at a time, and get into melee range, for 4 Illusion shatters. ( 2 words Illusionary Persona).

The Staff has 3 skills that work wonderfully with each other, and with etheral fields Like Null field or Time warp. Phase Retreat, Chaos Armor, and Chaos Storm.

Just 1 Point since Tl;dr. Chaos Storm applies aegis On everyone in it, all the time, if you get attacked while within the storm, it will do a 100 % block, and then… reapply aegis. If 1 aegis every 40 seconds is awesome from a Guardian… Imagine 2 back to back aegis’s with a few seconds of one another, every 30 ? or less with the right traits… I think I am down to 24 seconds.

Always put your first 5 trait points Into Illusions. After that, experiment. But ya… Pull lots of mobs with the staff… Chaos storm + Phase Retreat = Chaos Armor, then get into the faces of those mobs, don’t run away, between your clones applying conditions iWarlock exploiting those Conditions, all those clones applying Boons to yourself, and you applying conditions whil applyying Boons to yourself… and every ally around you. No real reason to kite. Do look up the Mr Prometheus videos. Or the shattercat build, or both, and have fun :-)

PS. I usually run with staff, sword/pistol or focus. I toss a torch in there sometimes In dungeons, I may be doing that more now. Ethereal Field + The Mirage = Area Chaos Armor. My skills are Ether Feast, Mirror Images, Blink, Null Field, and Time Warp.

Kupi.7864:

If they swapped the positions of Deceptive Evasion and Imbued Diversion (making Illusions 30 a choice between Illusionary Persona and Deceptive Evasion), it’d be fine. Then your options would be either much more powerful shatters or the ability to generate massive numbers of clones, but not both. As it stands, I see no reason not to take 20 Dueling and 30 Illusions— you just get so much extra shattering ability by having both that it leaves every other option behind.

And this!

I think that summarizes the reason that the underlying mechanics need to be strengthened a bit more, while the traits themselves should be weakened, such that the ultimate effect is the same. But because the base power is stronger.

I think people hear " such and such ability needs a nerf" and that automatically leads to " mesmer needs a nerf" when what is being asked for here, is a rebalancing.

making both Deceptive Evasions, and Illusionary Persona " nice boosts to already good abilities" instead of " massive boosts to weak base abilities."

As to placing DE at the 30 slot. I can see the rationale for it… but then I feel since it will cost 10 more points.. might be a good idea if it itself were then strengthened. Maybe the decoy explodes and applies vulnerability ina short range around it as it dies?

But leaving it as is, and then Moving it 10 points further up the trat tree, would seem.. to be nerfing the profession.

While DE + IP is becoming class defyning for shatterers, I do not believe the answer is to nerf DE by placing it higher, but then leaving it as is power wise.

Move it up the line so it costs 10 more points, boost it’s Power commensurately.

Malice.8439:

I think people are a bit too scared of the term “overpowered”, because they read it to mean that it must be nerfed.

As I understand it, the desire to nerf Illusionary Persona is not to weaken Mesmers, but to re-balance them by making the trait weaker, and compensating by spread the effects out elsewhere, or possibly to buff the shatters baseline.

Illusionary Persona is – much like Deceptive Evasion – so powerful a trait that it re-defines our playstyle. I believe that traits should enhance playstyles, not define them. At least not to such an extent that playing without them feels like doing yourself a great, great disservice.

I think that this hits the nail on the head. A good question to ask, to see whether a trait is out of balance would be…“as things are now, would I drop this trait, for another if I wanted a different playstyle than the one I have now, and not feel as if I were gimping myself?”

I believe what made gw1 awesome, was the multiplicity of builds.

I think that if this can be said of Illusionary Persona, and Deceptive Evasion. Should the traits be nerfed? No.. hell no, a Thousand times no.. lol

I think with IP at least you can strengthen the baseline shatter skills themselves… maybe the clones hang around for an extra amount of time beyond the killing of the anchor mob? The idea being that by strengthening the base… you make the trait " ooh a Nice boost." not." Must… have!!!"

Dastion.3106:

juno.1840:

EasyModes point is that yes it buffs shatters but shatters are not 100% of mesmer damage. When comparing to other GrandMaster traits, the damage oriented ones tend to buff output by total of 10%.

So yes, IP buffs shatters a lot, but the overall damage output of the mesmer is something less. Easy’s point is that the overall effect is closer to 10% which is what other GM traits do (overall).

I agree that IP is a great trait, but I don’t think it’s OP. However it’s probably a “must have” when going shatters. Just like the dodge-clone trait.

Yes, but you are referencing is the increase to the maximum potential. What I am attempting to point out is the drastic increase to the minimum potential of the mechanic which is far greater than how much it increases the maximum.

That’s why I said that the trait is OP, but without it the mechanic is underwhelming. The end result isn’t overpowered, but the effects the trait provides are too drastic. It would be better for the base mechanic to have that increase to the lower limit built in.

I believe what the OP is saying here is. That Anet should leave the maximum potential Mind wrack damage the same. But stengthen the base on which it is made:

New IP + MW w/ 4 illusions = Old IP + MW w/ 4 illusions but….

New MW w 3 illusions w/o IP > Old MW w 3 illusions w/o IP.

the idea being that this way, the increase of with IP over w/o IP is NOT as great, because the base potential damage of MW is greater, and with IP remains the same.

Kaleygh.1524:

It`s an exploit, stop trying to defend it. Between things like this, the 1button kill macros, culling and many other “bug” abuses its no wonder most people started hating thieves.

People will always hate thieves. People that cannot stealth, and do not play professions that stealth, tend to find the entire Thief stealthing playstyle problematic. So they go around saying " Nerf it in this condition, nerf it in that condition….. " Listen to these people Cloak n Dagger will last 1 second have a 3 Minute cool down… break when the thief is attacked by an a of e or DoT, use up an elite slot, and cost 30 skill points.

I am glad to see so many Positive posts, it encourages me to hear that there is goodness if i stick with it. I have gotten My necro to 42… I went with some Mostly Precision + condition damage builds.. Bleeeding extensions..etc…

I have to say, all i know so far is PvE… But for me… Necromancer is what Gw2 is. I love My conditions build.. I just feel uber when i pile on a ton of bleeds.

I love the survivability of the staff… but i am Not In love with scepter/dagger… It’s just awesome to pile on the scepter snare, bleed skill, and enfeebling Blood!

Anyway, thank you so Much for all the positive replies. It gives me hope that this profession is worth the time invested :-) it is now My main.

I have been reading the forums, for some advice on How to level up… and while I do find some interesting information… 4/5ths of the responders are basically QQ ing about how weak the necromancer is compared to other professions. " Three times as hard to underwhelm." I see a lot.

The reason I ask is, I am enjoying the necromancer for PvE, but, … Is there anyone playing this profession that feels it is alright for WvWvW, and every other QQ’er just sucks? or does the profession actually suck?

I ask because if i get even One responce from someone that says that for WvWvW they have had a good experience with it, i can consign every QQ ’ er to the suck pile, and keep playing the profession.

Honestly, is the profession as horrid as some say? or are they just bad at necro?

Sory this makes no sense since the trait says it boosts BOTH Plague Blast and Life Blast. Which means it is the intent of the developers that Plague Blast, and Life Blast be different skills. otherwise why would the language say that it affects BOTH?

Charming Rogue.8071:

I like what you’re doing and are trying to help out, but you’re not helping when you say “buy this, cause it will be worth something in the future”. That will just make everyone rush to said item to try and make a profit, thus driving the price up.

What would be better if you told people at what specific things you were looking out for when investing. For instance: “I advise to look at all items that are near merchant value, these are great investments because you hardly lose any gold, they can’t go down in price!”

Or “Look out for low level crafting items, because this item is used for low level armor, and crafting hence since more people are going to play now since the holidays are coming (or for some have already started) = more newbies = more demand for this product.”

Just not calling an item by name. Which will spread out the demand coming from your tips across various materials.

I believe this is one reason many feel this is a pump and dump. Telling people a specific commodity to buy as opposed to giving principles for people to select their own commodities.

If he had bought into the Wood market already, this may lead many newbies to push the price even higher. If he gives principles, there is NO telling what commodities they might actually buy, and he would Not benefit.

This is of course assuming that someone might want to pump the price of something they bought early and cheap… hoping it drives the price higher so he could dump his commodities at the top? No… No one would ever do that … right?

Thanks for the reply, I knew i was Misunderstanding something :-)

BabelFish.7234:

The gem “issue” is a symptom of the real problem which is a market that’s in total upheaval due to the banning of bots and investors creating artificial inflation to profit off of it.

Fix those two issues and gem prices will drop again.

If I misunderstood you please correct me. Did you say that one of the issues that Anet has to " fix" was the banning of Bots? How is this an issue that needs fixing? Bots should be banned. As should anyone that buys Gold from RMT.

If I misunderstood maybe you can explain exactly what you mean?

Reikou.7068:

A simple answer as to why the Gold/Gem exchange rate is at where it is now, is because buying gold from RMT is still about 1/3 the price of buying gold via gems.

Therefore, it is still much cheaper to purchase gold via rmt to convert to gems. Infact, if you do the math you can probably get the same amount of gems at half price for purchasing it through RMT gold.

For anyone actually actually interested in purchasing gems, their best deal would be to purchase gold through RMT and then use the gold to buy gems in game.
For those willing to purchase gold, again, their best deal would be to purchase through RMT.

Therefore in this situation no one is buying gems with real money to sell for gold. The only gold/Gem transactions occurring are gold purchases of gems, thus driving the price up.

Sounds as though you are recommending people violate TOS.

Ohoni.6057:

I do agree that most of what the chest drops is useless, don’t get me wrong – I’m just saying that making keys very cheap would compromise sales for items that can also be gotten with gems.

Sure, but the question is whether sales on those items should be compromised. Those are not the products that ANet should be basing their returns on.

I don’t understand the argument of why ALL BLCs need to be opened, or why it needs to be possible — the argument that seems to make appearance frequently. You do know you can just throw them out, sell or buy, right?

If that were the case then they shouldn’t keep showing up in my inventory. I shouldn’t keep receiving containers if I’m not intended to be able to open them. That’s just a game design foul.

Sorry for the double post. You keep making arguments that sound like." I don’t like this… this needs to change because…I don’t like it."

As someone said, there is a market for the chests. If you find zero value in them, sell them. Think of them as that dumb grey crap vendor trash items you get as mob loot.

Your post screams of entitlement. " I should be able to open ALL My chests cheap!!!" why? “I should ONLY get as many chests as i get keys!!!” Aagain why? If this were possible there would be no demand for keys and they would not sell on the Gem shop.

“They are not worth much, because… they are not worth much to ME!!!” Again,… why?
They may not be worth much to you, but I am sure they have value to others. You are not the entire market.

Then you come here, fairly regularly it seems to complain.

Stop complaining, and sell the chests On the TP. Give them to friends, destroy them.

If you don’t place any value in them, sell them to someone that gives them value.

Ohoni.6057:

If they change the chests too much (making them cheaper, having better rewards, whatever…), all the people who bought the keys before will feel cheated and then whine about that.

Sure, but they shouldn’t have gypped them in the first place, and they shouldn’t continue to rip people off just because they’ve ripped people off in the past. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If they can figure out a way to make it right for those people then great, but that shouldn’t prevent them from making things better moving forward. MMOs constantly make it easier to achieve things that once took a great deal of investment, it’s just the progression of the game.

No one is being ripped off. Your language is pretty melodramatic for no good reason.

There is an old expression going back to Roman times. Caveat Emptor. Let the buyer beware. It is your responsibility to do research before you plunk down any cash. If you spend money on keys, and the items in the chest are not something you find worthwhile, don’t do it again.

There need be no changes made to any of the chests. Just because you feel they are not worth owning is no reason to say " OMG I think these items suck..therefore they suck." They suck for YOU.

If it turns out too many people feel as you do, then Anet will know, and change things on their own. If they don’t it’s because most people do not agree with you.

If you personally do not think opening a chest has any value to you beyond " 10 s a key." then either do not buy keys off the gem store, or sell your chests and as someone earlier said… be done with it.

No one is forcing you to buy gem keys for those chests. Relax, play the game in a way from which you can derive enjoyment. Life is too short to complain about what you cannot change.

Anet will either see that you are right, or wrong, based on key sales. If you are right, they will change things On their own even if yo9u don’t whi-..I mean post about it in the forums…

If you are wrong, you can post until next Christmas, and nothing will be changed. I do see the value of venting though… but.. I feel that si the ONLY value you will derive from Posting about this.

I would Like to see more town outfits, and some sexier skins myself. Personally I think that Anet is awesome, allowing a Lot of the things that sell on the gem store, to also drop in different ways and not just be gem store items. Transmute stones for map completions, for example…etc…

I think there are 2 things that different players will object to in a cash shop. Pay to win items being available for cash, is one. Another is… Cosmetic items ONLY being available from the gem store.

Since there is a market for gems that can be purchased with in-game gold, and … the items available for sale also drop or aquireable through in-game means… Anet threads the needle pretty well.

Me I am happy with the gem store. I just wish that the Bots would be eliminated. I read that Anet had cracked down on them recently. I hope they stay away.

Not too sure How Uinds work for precursor to legendaries. I do know it is possible to craft dyes with cooking, but I think that is only for use and has nothing to do with legendaries. Or i could be wrong. If the unids that are crafted cannot be used as precursors for legendaries are also climbing in price, then it’s not because of demand for precursors. If they aren’t then it’s because of the higher demand for pre-cursors. It does make a reasonable amount of sense that as more and more players hit the level cap, they will start buying more pre-cursors for legendaries, hence the price going up.

Personally I always thought the drop rate seemed a bit high. I remember in gw1, Black dyes were really rare, sold fast, and sold dear. Here it was rarer than most others, but not that hard to get.

Black dye, was One of those items the economy ran on, that and ectos.

Me I rather that somethings were rarer, and had some value, since it seems 95 % of stuff has little value. Then again, I don’t monitor stuff on the tp, and am only going by what I observe.

Relax all is well. you post something you pay the fee once, the stuff stays on the post The Gods alone know how long until it either sells, or until you cancel. If you cancel, all you are out is the listing fee. A lot better than some games where how long something is available depends on how much you pay, and then if it doesn’t sell in that time, it is mailed back to you. And you need to relist.

I know some will say " do your homework, and list at a good price." And yes, but some times the market rises or falls for a Bit… and you miss the price. Better to list once…then pay the 15 % when it sells. It’s not " OMG THE GAMESUXXORZTYRIAWILLENDDESTROYTHEGAME ARGHHHHHHH!!!!"

I just want to add that to my understanding The devs decide what a game looks like since it is their property. You have a license to use it, or if you do not like it, not use it. If you like the game, except how the UI looks. I sincerely doubt anyone will honestly say " Everything about the game is great, but I dislike that I cannot customize my UI with an addon..so uninstalling."

I can understand the appeal of third party add-ons since there is another game that openly embraces the concept of add-ons etc… But to borrow just ONE add on from that game as an example… GearScore.

The worst thing in my opinion to happen to WoW was GearScore. It got to where no one that did not gear up above a defined amount was welcomed by some groups to do certain dungeons. Even though the game said " your iLevel is good enough." the groups wanted to be so overgeared that they would examine you. And if your score was not as high as they wanted you’d get kicked.

TL;DR sorry. To finish. Devs decide how the game looks. Devs decide what features we should have. It is their property. We should leave it as is. For me… since it is their content they should be the ones to decide how it is presented, and experienced.

Tallis.5607:

Pillow.9473:

But you cant spend money to get an edge over other players in terms of gear and stats

Sure you can… you buy gems with daddy’s creditcard, you sell them for gold, you buy an entire set of exotic armor, top-notch upgrades for all of them that cost more than 1g each, 3 exotic weapons with top-notch upgrades AND expensive jewelry with the best upgrades. All the stuff that other players have to work hard for to buy you can buy with $$$.

I don’t see how this is an issue, since you can also buy this with in game gold aquired through game play. I do not understand why people look at time devoted to playing the game, as if it were a job." so and so had to work hard for x hours for something someone else just bought with cash." Time devoted to playing the game is time devoted to having fun, in my humble opinion.

The way I see it is, someone uses real world cash as a shortcut, to start off with a load of gold, they basically deprive themselves of playing the game.

For me… Not having gold for every little thing I want, means i need to prioritize, and immerses me in the game. It gives my decisions more meaning.

Not BUYING gold, for me also means that I do not trivialize content. If it is possible to just BUY the best statted armor for Gold, and IF this armor makes encounters trivial, that would be hard with armor that can only be acquired by in game means you might have a point.

This is all subject to debate.

But even then, as I see it… all that person managed to do was to take an encounter that might have been exciting and thrilling because of the risk involved, and taken the reward of such an encounter which because of the risk would, for me , have a greater appreciation for the reward…. and made it less exciting, less thrilling, more boring, more routine, and the rewards, less appreciated.

So someone can buy gold for cash… and trivialize content…. all they have done is waste the money to buy the game, and waste the money to buy the gems… simply because it made a more fun game, less exciting… again, in my humble opinion.

Thank you very much for this awesome guide. I have always wanted to play elementalist and got to level 35 basically doing random things… but this write up actually gives me tools to work with since it explains what the tools do… and how they inter-relate. So glad you took the time to put this together.