Guild Wars 2

While I would Love to have some Kind of In game thing where I could have a " married to …" over my head… I can see a couple of problems right off the bat.

One is… what if Like me and My wife.. Same sex couple ..representing :P… we each play multiple alts?

“Married to..” is cool if you only each have 1 character. but then you are with alts….

The second issue I see is for same sex couples. There are many players that are homophobic. There are also many griefers. My issue is to the extent that this would be griefed by others. Whether immature people, or Homophobes, or people that want to " preach them to heaven"

I simply feel that this…for same sex couples Invites a Lot of grief and potential ridicule.

VBut for heterosexual couples I do not see that there is anything bad about it.

And…since same – sex couples may see they are not being treated the same, it just becomes a can of worms that Anet may wish to stay out of.

I remember the big Brouhaha because The Old Republic did not Include same sex courting of NPC or followers In game. was not pretty. It was supposed to be included at launch, then it was delayed, then they promised it would be a part of an upcoming patch… then I stopped playing ( for other reasons)…so I never experienced it.

Part of it may have been the reaction of many people that simply do not want to see Homosexuals as a part of mainstream entertainment.

Nynuwe.5893:

KratosAngel.7289:

A quick question, sorry if this has been asked or answered but I dont have enough time to read everything : is it intended that you can’t unlock the new traits in the defense part of Arah gates and of Lyssa ?
Are we supposed to just pay the price in gold or is it planned to fix it ?

I thought they already fixed that? Are you still currently experiencing the “Defense Gives Nada” situation?

Not sure what is meant by the above. I have done both the Defeat the Risen High Wizard, and the Defeat the High Priestess of Lyssa" events to unlock the GM traits.

It can be done, but what we did was play it safe. We assumed that defending would get us Nothing, no matter what people said, we allowed the Risen to overrun the place, then we attacked when we saw the High Priestess, Risen High Wizard.

It does take some communication on map chat, explaining to players not aware, that to get the GM traits Risen need to be allowed to take over the Temple etc.

As long as no one is greifing by yelling things Like.“They are the griefers, you need to defend or x will not spawn.” (Something needs to be done about this.) Then getting The High Priestess and The High Wizard will spawn.

Creld.8702:

Personal Input: Playing mostly for pvp, I have never enjoyed having to use pve currency (skill points and gold) to unlock abilities so that I can test them.

With 8 characters, we have 40 traits and 8 healing abilities to purchase with skillpoints. That’s 20 skill points per trait and 25 per heal, giving us a whopping 1,000 skill points to unlock them all. After completing 2 paths and gaining 4 ranks, I have managed to gather enough skill points to purchase 2 of the new traits. That’s roughly 130 games played, for 2 traits.

Most would respond with “just go get them in PvE” or some other inane comment which doesn’t address the issue of kitten needing pve currency for pvp. I don’t like zerg trains, I don’t like easily abusing npc ai to kill anything with enough time, I LIKE fighting other players. I like getting to try new things constantly, switching traits and skills around in hotjoin, tweaking and testing until I go into queue. I don’t like that everything new added requires immense amounts of time to simply -try- the new toys. Hell, half those traits don’t look like they’ll be worth anything, but I still want to see what they can do.

I like the changes, for the most part. The newest layer of paint is slightly brighter than the last one. But you missed a spot, and that’s remembering many pvpers don’t like pve content. How was this forgotten here? It’s just… Whatever. Eventually, I’ll get some of those traits, or go back to WoW for the new expansion. It’s not likely that anet will change how they’ve been for gw2.

It is sad though, because it’s an entertaining thing, it’s just little crap like this that kittenes me off.

Feedback done, and my condolences to those who have more than 8 characters.

I have more than 8 characters and am having a blast. Thank you for your condolences but I do not need them. Good luck with PvP though, I can unserstand that PvE players should not have to do PvP sPvP , WvW to play their PvE game. I can also see the reverse. While it is easier for a PvE player to get his or her hands On Gold and Skillpoints to Just pay for the skills, it is Not the same from the PvP perspective. Never having been a PvP player… I cannot really say. I do hope that Anet does tweek the game a bit on some of these systems.

People keep repeating " to get this trait which is an adept trait I would need to complete bla bla zone which is a level 50 zone. " Then say that the fact that they have to do it that way is proof the system is out of whack.

The other possibility is maybe the ddevs don’t want you to have that particular trait til level 50.

Either way as i see it those that wish to unlock this trat have several options.

1. Wait til they can complete the map.
2. wait til they have the Money + skillpoint to buy the traut.
3. get friends to carry them through the entire zone.( Not likely but hey… some people have those types of friends.)

My position has always been that just because players feel they are entitled to have all traits unlocked at the level they are able to use them doesn’t mean the developers have to make it easy or even possible for them to do so.

it’s Not a bad design. All it does is keep you from having access to some traits til… a week or two later?

I Understand that many players want to have traits useable at level 36, to be accomplished by level 36. But here is where we disagree. I do not see that the devs have to rpovide all traits that are useable at level 36 in content that a solo player at 36 can accomplish, or even needs to be Possible at level 36.

I see No problem them making it a map completion even if it’s a level 50 or level 70 map.

THIS is where people say that “Game design is Bad”. To open a n adept trait useable by level 36, requires completion of a level 50 map, or a level 70 map, or a level 55 story. I disagree. Levelling is easy, get to the level you can accomplish the task at hand, or …pay for the traits at level 36. No one says that you HAVE to have EVERY trait by 36 that you can use at 36 In an Unchallenging way.

No one says the traits need to be cheap either. But that’s simply my opinion.

Dervishes
Ritualists

storiessave.3807:

Maybe some people would be fine wasting 3-8 hours standing around doing absolutely nothing in a game, but some people just don’t have that time, or, even more miraculously, don’t find it fun to be standing in one spot waiting for an event that probably will never happen.

Point is, people shouldn’t have to no-life it to make it to a Lyssa spawn. I haven’t seen her spawn since the patch, and I’ve been in the zone every day. I’m not in any hurry to get the traits, but I did used to farm her and the other temple bosses daily, and I miss that.

What’s the point of even giving us a choice between paying money or doing an event to get a trait if we’re never going to be able to do the event, anyway?

I did the Lyssa event twice to unlock GM traits. Once with My Mesmer, Once with My thief. Not sure what you mean " never going to be able to anyway" she shows up. Unfortunately, people respond more to polite requests than to yelling and screaming.

Some people explain" we need to let the temple be overrun so that the High Pristess of Lyssa can be summoned, then when we take back the temple…we get the GM trait." BOTH times that people asked in this way, we succeeded…

There were times people said things Like " hey Noob, leave the risen alone, what the eff wrong with you? I want My GM trait."

I am sure we all know what type of responces that player got? and Big surprise… the event was defended and Lyssa did Not appear.
Sometimes it’s luck, sometimes it’s a request for courtesy.

DeceiverX.8361:

Nerelith.7360:

You say :“1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.”

then say “Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.”

I do not accept that it is implicite at all. There are many people that will Look over some traits, decide either that they do not fit their build concept. Are too onerous for them to aquire, too expensive to buy at this time, and will forgo many traits.

Not every player is a completionist that needs EVERY trait as soon as they are able to use those traits.

I Played EverQuest. And In that game you needed to hunt down the spell vendors for your spells so at say level 19, you had to go into a zone that may or may Not have mobs 5 to 7 levels higher than you were. Also you might or might Not have all the gold necessary to buy all your spells. SOME spells required you to kill certain mobs over and over. And some required you to hunt down crafing compnents to research the spell, that was on RNG… the Higer your research trait the better chance of crafting the spell…but sometimes you had continuous failures… trust me.. gw2 has made it easy in comparison.

So the idea that traits MIGHT require that things be done that a typical character of that level may not be able to do, is not new. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad decision, just an unpopular one.

And yet again what you’ve stated has no relevance.

Not selecting a given trait is considered out of the question because it is implied that the given trait has synergy with one’s build and is considered necessary for character functionality.

Whether or not you can skip certain traits is again irrelevant to the topic.

And the EverQuest example… more irrelevance. Just because it’s “harder” in one game to unlock skills does not mean that GW2 should follow the same model with traits.

Actually, I’d argue it’s extremely easy to unlock the traits. None of the content in this game aside from some of the major bosses is particularly challenging unless you make it so.

The problem is that again, we’re dealing with literal impossibilities of acquisition upon reaching the level requirements and extensive hassles to get such traits without spending what is honestly an absurd amount of money. Frankly, this is bad design.

And EQ found success in that model likely because the competition was so low when the game was successful. I’d challenge a game to implement a grind system to unlock what should be necessary content and succeed in the Western market.

Grinds are not successful in the Western game market these days. That’s why GW2 is the way it is, and why the US/EU almost never sees most Korean games. Extending the period until acquisition is not a successful model to follow in this market demographic, especially when the game is and has been marketed as being fair throughout and allows for a more casual audience.

This change does not abide to that philosophy, and therefore must be changed on some level to do so.

The problem isn’t that there is more competition only. That is only part of the issue.

The problem is, that the MMO genre is filled with players that if they had played before would never have put up with what was required of them from an mmo of quality.

I will explore only 1 thing that was good in EverQuest that would NEVER be tolerated by today’s gamers.

Slower levelling. and I mean so slow, you could play consistenly … for MONTHS before reaching cap level.

EverQuest’s economy made sense because while armor was only available at certain levels…. players spent SO LONG in those levels, that it made sense to craft. It made sense to go out and collect furs to sell to leatherworkers…who then went and crafted the armor. The GDP of EverQuest was Once calculated as # 27 when compared to actual nations In the RL. Because levelling was slower.

Back then the game began at level 1. Was challenging from level 1. Not " The game begins at 80."

Today’s gamers wouldn’t sit still for a better, more challenging game, a slower game. Today’s gamers would not know what makes an MMO a GOOD MMO. and if a game company tried to implement something that made it better by making it more challenging for example, they would run In droves for an easier game. Because unfortunately, for many of today’s gamers Easier = better.

In my opinion…. Slower, More challenging… = better.

Sometimes the best thing for a game is to make it harder. Not easier.

Shigeruken.2947:

So I just rolled a new character for the first time since I started a few weeks ago.
I didn’t realise that you can’t even view your traits at low level. That’s ridiculous.

Unless you look up a character builder online, you cannot plan anything about your class beyond your skills. That means new players are completely in the dark on what equipments they should be using until whenever the traits tree unlocks (which I assume is level 30) unless they seek advice from other players or use third party tools.

That annoys me.

This is as it has always been. Just as you cannot see any of the 3 skillpoint utility skills, til you have obtained 5 1 Point skills. then you need to unlock 5 3-point skills to see the 5point skills.. etc.

Also we were never able to see the traits til level 11. Because that is when the trait system opened up before. Now we do not see them til 30, because the trait systen did not open up til 30. There has been No change as to when we see the traits. We still see them when the trait system opens up, … before at 11, now at 30.

shawn.1298:

Nerelith.7360:

Dude about the spouce and Guild mates thing. That was me. here is How it goes. me and the wife Log In, depending on the time, we can either both log into our lowbies..Now level 8 btw.. and goof off together. the reason we do it together is not because it’s so tough that it has to be done together, it’s Just that we …Like Playing together, as married couples do. Without guild help.

At some Point In the day, she and I decide to play some of Our 80’s… I play mesmer she thief. We head off to Orr. We have so far been involved In the Lyssa event..to unlock GM traits, and the Karka event, to unlock GM traits. The funny thing about this is this we also did…without Guild help. ( it seems that the fact that we might get guild help..In a game called Guild Wars 2 bugs you. …but your concerns are immaterial, since all of this we did with the help of strangers that happened to be around.)

So Now we are looking for the Temple of Grenth, and Arah to get the final 2 GM traits, again…without guild help. fact is… I must be honest, although I have said " ask guildies for help when it gets too hard." I have yet to do so, becaus e the game is friggen easy.

I also play a level 24 thief that I started Playing after the patch. That one should be nerfed according to players that complain. I should have 14 trait points. I have none.

My personal experience with NOT having trait points before 30 is… I like it.

before with 14 trait points I had My main had weapon grafted on til 80, My off hand weapon the same, a shortbow In secondary slot. Respeccing cost money, and time, I needed to port back to DR..bla bla bla Not gonna Bother.

That meant I never experimented. Now with zero trait points I am switching weapons as often as i come across something where a weapon switch might be helpful.

Same with Utilities. So even with my level 24 thief, I experiment more.

A few people keep saying things Like.." Oh, you have a constant companion , and you have high level guild support." here is what I have… My wife keeping me company on my level 8 mesmer, no guild support.

And.

Solo on my level 24 thief. No guild support yet. who knows, I keep hearing people saying they levelled all the way to 80 without having to rely on anyone other than people On the map with them. I may never have to make a Guildy call. Don’t worry, if I ever do..I’ll let you know.

Loving the game Anet has done an awesome Job with the new patch. A step in the right direction as far as i am concerned.

On paper the best pudding recipe can look amazing, but then when you taste it it may taste like crap.

The Proof of the pudding, is in the eating.

Give the game a serious try, and if you dislike it that badly… well.. you can wait and hope that Anet reverses themselves I guess.

or… explore other options.

Somewhere in this tome, there should be a reason as to why you like the new leveling and trait system, but I’ll be darned if I could find it. The closest I found was that because the new trait system made your level 24 less effective so you had to experiment with different weapons.

The purpose of the new trait system – according to the blurb – was to afford experimentation with builds, NOT weapons. The ability and encouragement to experiment with weapons has always been there. That’s what the first 10 or so levels have always been about. The fact you didn’t do it before and now have to doesn’t prove the new trait system is successful in encouraging experimentation with builds. It just shows its nerfed your level 24 so much you have to play differently. Yes, Anet is now the play police. “Do it this way, not YOUR way.”

You know I never said My thief was less effective. I don’t see that anywhere. and the fact is 10 levels goes by so fast there isn’t Much time to experiment with anything… by 8 or 9, you already have most of your skills Open, and your weapon skills unlocked…wow 2 levels for experimentning with your weapons.

Anyway, I have said all I am gonna say, I Like the new system, it does make for a More enjoyable experience for me. I am levelling my 24 just find without any traits. I will see How it is once I hit level 36, and have to Hunt down major traits. I am thinking that most players that are naysayers are just simply too used to having stuff handed to them, Now they actually have to…OMG play the game.

Anyway, I wish everyone here, the best in finding some enjoyment In this patch.

blakdoxa.7520:

Wow…
I believe the trait changes are horrible as well, but yet people are trying to go with this idea that “it was a good thing.”
Anet initially wanted player to “play how they want” but now they swiftly are heading into a direction that favors group content, as in they are overdoing it.

A poster earlier said they started a new toon but leveled by playing with their spouse and their guildmates. Some people can’t play being grouped up all the time, especially in the open world. So is this game not for them anymore? Because it seems like the trait system flip is largely against them.

Mobs being easier is terrible because of the trait system was a bad idea. Many players have called for more challenging mob AI but now they are no more fragile than glass.

I get people are trying to be overly optimistic but they are also talking as if their are no faults to the system or the decision to change. They rather just say “well sorry the game changed and it ain’t for you anymore.” Just how the hell is that even acceptable?

Dude about the spouce and Guild mates thing. That was me. here is How it goes. me and the wife Log In, depending on the time, we can either both log into our lowbies..Now level 8 btw.. and goof off together. the reason we do it together is not because it’s so tough that it has to be done together, it’s Just that we …Like Playing together, as married couples do. Without guild help.

At some Point In the day, she and I decide to play some of Our 80’s… I play mesmer she thief. We head off to Orr. We have so far been involved In the Lyssa event..to unlock GM traits, and the Karka event, to unlock GM traits. The funny thing about this is this we also did…without Guild help. ( it seems that the fact that we might get guild help..In a game called Guild Wars 2 bugs you. …but your concerns are immaterial, since all of this we did with the help of strangers that happened to be around.)

So Now we are looking for the Temple of Grenth, and Arah to get the final 2 GM traits, again…without guild help. fact is… I must be honest, although I have said " ask guildies for help when it gets too hard." I have yet to do so, becaus e the game is friggen easy.

I also play a level 24 thief that I started Playing after the patch. That one should be nerfed according to players that complain. I should have 14 trait points. I have none.

My personal experience with NOT having trait points before 30 is… I like it.

before with 14 trait points I had My main had weapon grafted on til 80, My off hand weapon the same, a shortbow In secondary slot. Respeccing cost money, and time, I needed to port back to DR..bla bla bla Not gonna Bother.

That meant I never experimented. Now with zero trait points I am switching weapons as often as i come across something where a weapon switch might be helpful.

Same with Utilities. So even with my level 24 thief, I experiment more.

A few people keep saying things Like.." Oh, you have a constant companion , and you have high level guild support." here is what I have… My wife keeping me company on my level 8 mesmer, no guild support.

And.

Solo on my level 24 thief. No guild support yet. who knows, I keep hearing people saying they levelled all the way to 80 without having to rely on anyone other than people On the map with them. I may never have to make a Guildy call. Don’t worry, if I ever do..I’ll let you know.

Loving the game Anet has done an awesome Job with the new patch. A step in the right direction as far as i am concerned.

On paper the best pudding recipe can look amazing, but then when you taste it it may taste like crap.

The Proof of the pudding, is in the eating.

Give the game a serious try, and if you dislike it that badly… well.. you can wait and hope that Anet reverses themselves I guess.

or… explore other options.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Is that so? But still. You level to 80 within a week if you play normally. So what’s the problem if you have to wait a bit until you have fully developped? It shouldn’t be a problem to do without certain traits until 80.

THIS

Vol.7601:

And on the opposite spectrum, as a player who has been here since release and has 4000 hours in game, a hardcore player, part of the 1% and gladly (until now) invested $1000 in GW2…

the megaserver update is the worst update Anet has come up with. It’s so bad that I’m fed up and quitting the game today. They have completely alienated their playerbase and refuse to acknowledge the shortcoming of the megaserver system that has so few benefits that do not shine any brighter than all these drawbacks.

Anet also lied to us in a matter of weeks with this little blurb from the blogpost:
“Notably, the Temples of Orr will not be synchronized at this time since they heavily influence the content ecosystem that they exist in.”

Today the megaservers got extended to Cursed Shore after being rolled out to Straits and Malchors. Why Anet, did you change this? Oh that’s right, because you do not like farmers making gold, which you can do quite comfortable in Orr.

I’m very, very disappointed that Anet decided to take this direction of the game. You guys were doing so well. And you screwed it up.

Everyone has an opinion. I started Playing with Pre-order. I got a few betas in.. then pre-release.

While the old system was a good one, I am actually excited about this one. I have done Karka Queen with 2 alts for GM traits. I also did Lyssa. I got the sunken ship chest, so only need Grenth, and the Arah trait.

But what i find interesting is… My new Low level characters that I started since Patch.

My Thief is level 24. I expected that NOT having 14 trait points would suck. My experience is, that when I had traits in place, since I hated paying for respeccs, Having a build i was working on, I got the utility skills I needed, and the main and offhand weapon I needed, and that was that til level 80.

I pretty much added a trait point each level to flesh out the build but I did Not experiment.

Now…since I am 24 and have zero traits, i am actually swiching weapons more, using different skills. More experimentation.

Even on My 80’s since swapping traits is free…I am experimenting more than before.

Since this was the whole point I have to say " great Job Anet. " Not every person hates this Patch,…some do…some don’t.. Everyone has an opinion.

In mine while this does nerf me in some ways, it more than makes up for it with the amount of experimenting I am doing. I prefer the new system.

MINKZILLA.6023:

nGumball.1283:

And there are people thinking that leveling is the best its been.

that would be me!

Ditto

Celestina.2894:

Lishtenbird.2814:

If we forget how driving cars felt, maybe we may find riding horses is more fun?

They are infinitely more fun. More relaxing also.

A car may be an effective way to get from Point A to Point B, but not a fun way.

A horse gallops and canters, a horse will jump over obstacles, a horse will also be a second set of eyes alert for danger. A Horse is a companion…. a car is a tool.

High 5’s Celestina.

RollingBob.8502:

I’m curious, for those who are struggling mid-level, do you use the mouse to click on skills? Do you use the keys to turn?

I do not, I only use the mouse to turn, and only the keyboard to fire skills, so aside from WASD the only keyboard action is left hand skill firing (in combat). I have zero problems and find PvE to be better after patch, for both new and existing toons.

I ask this not to preach or to ridicule, just curious if the issue may be more to physical interface styles. Those having issues, you have my sympathies, sorry, don’t know what else to say.

I Know what you mean, I used to be a Point and click… keyboard turner, til I realized that it was a sub-optimal playstyle, then a friend hooked me up with a Razer Naga..Now it’s vroooom vroooooom……

Mouse to turn…. A and D scroll…. thumb button skill clicks…I really cannot go back to a regular mouse.

shawn.1298:

nGumball.1283:

And there are people thinking that leveling is the best its been.

And why? What makes the leveling better? Because its harder or more of a grind? I don’t find it more interesting, but a dull grind. Why do some think its better. Penance?

One example I saw a few Minutes ago.

Marche.8123:

I made a elementalist after the patch as I wanted to experience the new trait functions and I have to say that it really isn’t hard to level. Sure, it requires kiting and dodging, but that’s how this game works. I can’t really compare before and after the patch, but I can safely say that it really isn’t hard to level.

I am sure there are others. But chances are you will not read them, it’s a fact that the forums are disproportionately peopled by complainers that are not satisfied with the game at some point or other. The impression is, " the game really sucks Look at all the complainers." or…" everyone feels as I do, because Not many people are disagreeing with me."

Chances are…MOST of the people that feel like Marche are not On the forums posting, but on the game playing.

Lostyus.4250:

Nerelith.7360:

My wife is the same level as My new character. She also made a new character after the patch. So No…I will Not have a constant level 80 companion.

Still it is an extra ‘sword’ to help kill things, not everyone plays with friends or will have met them yet.

Secondly, in the guild I am in…people help others all the time. it’s not Like they go." Oh is this a new Player? you don’t have a level 80 main??? off with you then."

Your objections do not match reality. It will be no harder for a new player to get into a Guild than for a veteran player. if your experience is different , maybe you Just hit up the wrong guilds?

lol! I didn’t say it would be harder to join a guild! Where did that come from?! Please show me where I said such a thing, thanks.

In DR I constantly see " levelling guild looking for players for fun, groups… and events… hit me up with a whisper."

Know what i have Never seen?

" Guild looking for players with ONLY level 80 mains..and veteran Players, if you are a new player, and Playing a main that is under level 80, you need not apply."

Again, I did not say anything like that, stop putting words into my mouth, and using this to create your argument while not addressing my points.

Of course this is now a cue for you to somehow invalidate my experience in GW2 because it doesn’t help your argument.

Wow really, WTF are you on about?! lol

Like you assumed My wife is playing a level 80? or that my guild will not accept new players…or help new players with content?

Yet again you are talking crap, I didn’t say anything about a guild not recruiting new/low lvl players, stop trolling and reply to my points raised. Your wife may not be a lvl 80, but she is an extra ‘sword’ as I’ve already said, but you will be using guild mates to… “do events too hard for me to do simply with the help of My wife”. So as I said, you will be using higher level players to help you get content that is too high a level for you to earn on your own. A lot of new players would not have access to that help. Also I don’t think that is what A-net had in mind when they placed these new traits.

Now please address my points and not try to sidetrack the discussion with points about things I have not said.

I only need to address one.

A lot of new players would not have access to that help.

This is an MMO, you seem to think that this is a single player game, where the game needs to be balanced around a single player, playing from level 1 to 80 alone, with no help from anyone , ever.

The fact is, the name of the game is Guild Wars 2. Assuming that someone at some point will get into a guild is not that far a stretch.

My experience in MMO’s is…I play alone, until content gets too hard for me to handle it alone, then I seek a guild.

Your argument seems to me to be.." Play alone til 80, if there is any content a solo player cannot handle at any point, even if common sense says they will have 1. found a few friends to pal around with, or 2. Joined a Guild the game must sill be balanced with the solo player in mind."

This is not a solo game. This is not a single player game. This is Guild Wars 2. So My argument is simple. If content ever gets too hard to handle alone…. make some friends, or…. join a Guild.

uknortherner.2670:

Prior to the patch, playing an elementalist, even in a starter area was an exercise in frustration: Attacks felt weak, and a level 20 ele could easily be one-shotted by a level 4 bandit if you didn’t see the attack coming.

Post patch, I rolled another elementalist to see if anything had change for what I had come to consider a completely useless class. It had: Attacks felt powerful, addiing stones to armour actually felt like it made a difference, and the staff, an incredibly weak weapon before now actually felt like it had a purpose.

My current ele is only level 12 and I have yet to venture beyond Queensdale but the difference pre- and post-patch is like night and day. Stranger still, I’m finding that I’m enjoying playing an elementalist again for the first time since launch.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Aside from the fact that we now get 5 trait points every 6 levels, when before we got 1 trait point / level.. having a net loss of 1 Point every 5 levels. I do Not see How this is so horrid as some claim.

Before I would level… 2 or 3 or 4 levels in a Given session, and forget to even apply the points, because… + 10 power or + 1 % condition duration, did not mean much.

so:

30 + 1 Trait point
31 + 1
32 + 1
33 + 1
34 + 1
35 + 1
36 + 1

is no worse than:

30 +1 new trait point = + 5 old.
31
32
33
34
35
36 +1 new trait point = + 5 old.

Wait I think My math is bad… that looks Like + 3 net gain on trait points. I Must be wrong. That would just make the levelling experience seem Like there is more of a feel of progressing…. at least for me.

Maybe I am missing something. But at least in MY experience…. getting that trait point before meant almost nothing. Could it be this is Just an irrational fear of the nerf that is really not much of a nerf experience wise?

Edit:

I Know that many will say that before 30 there were 19 trait points that are now Lost.. but..My experience of Mobs is… we don’t need them, the game is absurdly easy even if you don’t spend a single trait point.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Nerelith.7360:

I have to agree. I remember loving EverQuest. Anyone that hates ’ the grind" on Gw2…would literally fling EverQuest out the window. I think that there are some players that see play= grind. Unless what they are doing is " what I want to do."

Exactly, you got it! People are playing GW2 because it’s not some hardcore EverQuest; people have a job and a life and get a casual MMO to spend their evenings in a fun way doing what they like when they like without any subscription fee – and that’s what made the game popular. Introducing this change at this stage is wrong, because people who bought Game A now have to play Game B, or pay more money to convert to gold and unlock the ability to play their character.

Does it promote gold sink? Yes.

Does it encourage gem purchases? Yes.

Does it make more people play old content which has already been paid for instead of paying to design new content? Yes.

Is it a win-win? For the developer – yes. For a new player – no difference. For an old loyal customer – more of a post-buy rip-off.

Nerelith.7360:

Riding Horses IS more fun!

…when you want it, how you want it:) Not every day to job through rain, mud and melting snow in your business suit, right?;)

To be honest…. I Might actually enjoy this… Minus the business suit, that of course goes in a bag so it doesn’t get wet. Listen the Horse analogy is wrong to use with me, if I could go everywhere riding a Horse I would, regardless of weather, I just love riding horses. Maybe you can find another?

Lostyus.4250:

Nerelith.7360:

Playing a New Mesmer. I already have a Human mesmer, but decided to play another just to experience the new trait system. I am Not gonna be riding any Champion Trains, I will Not be getting assistance from high level alts. Will rely on whatever help I can get from Guildies to do events too hard for me to do simply with the help of My wife.

And that is why this ‘test’ will be useless to prove anything. Very few new players will have help from guildies (of very high lvl, or lvl 80, or even be in a guild) or a constant companion of higher level to do this stuff with. With these people babysitting you there won’t be anything you can’t do, that is not looking at it objectively. Even vets will find it difficult to ask/have a friend who would babysit them through all their traits in area’s higher that their level. Also there’s a hell of a lot of players who only play solo, are they now playing it wrong? Should they wait until 10 to 40 levels later to get a trait that was open to them at level 36?

You’ve already made it very clear you love this new change. but you will not look at it from any other perspective. How can all these changes be good for a new player coming to this game who might not have friends here yet. Yes he could meet people while out adventuring but they’d probably be the same level as him, and that would not be useful in getting the traits in area’s 10 lvls or more ahead of him.

Also (can’t remember where I read it) did you know that if you go to an area that is too high for your toon, enemies will be attracted to that low lvl player from a lot further away and will also be more aggro’d to that player? Yeah that’ll be fun trying to get 100% map completion for a trait.

How about you don’t use your constant companion (your wife), how about not using any guild mates? Or how about you only play with that player that offered to join you on starting new toons (I’ve forgotten his name, but he said he’d make a new toon with you and you agreed to play with him).

I like the idea of earning traits, but the old system was more fun and less of a grind because you could ‘play it your way’. There are some very valid points in this thread that you won’t even touch like how is a new player meant to be able to afford all the gold and skill points, while still playing the things they enjoy in a game that was not meant to be grindy.

When I played my first toon I really really enjoyed it, I played it my way, I played the game for the story of the missions. I could go to each 1-15 area and clear all of them, then move onto the next higher region’s (15-30 or whatever). I left the personal story until I had gotten to the area it took place in. Now I can’t do that. I either have to play without traits or i grind for gold and skill points (I didn’t get my first gold piece until lvl 60) or wait until I am the right level to enter that area. No mater what you try to say, thems the facts

My wife is the same level as My new character. She also made a new character after the patch. So No…I will Not have a constant level 80 companion.

Secondly, in the guild I am in…people help others all the time. it’s not Like they go." Oh is this a new Player? you don’t have a level 80 main??? off with you then."

Your objections do not match reality. It will be no harder for a new player to get into a Guild than for a veteran player. if your experience is different , maybe you Just hit up the wrong guilds?

In DR I constantly see " levelling guild looking for players for fun, groups… and events… hit me up with a whisper."

Know what i have Never seen?

" Guild looking for players with ONLY level 80 mains..and veteran Players, if you are a new player, and Playing a main that is under level 80, you need not apply."

Of course this is now a cue for you to somehow invalidate my experience in GW2 because it doesn’t help your argument.

Like you assumed My wife is playing a level 80? or that my guild will not accept new players…or help new players with content?

Lishtenbird.2814:

nGumball.1283:

If you consider ever form of playing grinding then you shouldn’t play MMOs cause that’s how they are.

Playing any content I want to play with a character and leveling it is not grind.

Playing content that I do not want to be able to unlock traits for my characters is a grind.

Playing content that I do not want to be able to buy traits for my character is a grind.

Hey, did you notice we were talking not even about ascended mats locked behind specific content types and non-exchangeable for optional gear, but about basic character abilities known as traits?

There must be a line in “grinding”. For me, even gathering mats for full ascended was fun and not grind, because those +4.7% stats were optional, similar to how optional were the looks of illusionary forged weapons for me.

Are traits optional? No, they’re core features of any class, and having an 80-level Personal Story to unlock a Master trait is ridiculous, as ridiculous it is to pay 43 gold + 360 skill points for unlocking all traits.

People are saying that there’s no endgame; ANet’ve failed to deliver new persistent content, and now they’re trying to tell us that leveling is the new endgame – not by adding something new to leveling, but by making us play content which has been largely ignored. Can I agree with such a concept? No.

Nerelith.7360:

Maybe if we put our experiences of pre-patch gw2 aside, and try to see the game with new eyes, you may find it’s more fun? Just a thought.

If we forget how driving cars felt, maybe we may find riding horses is more fun?

Riding Horses IS more fun!

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I do agree with many that Anet needs to take a look at the tasks required to attain some traits. Specially some of the lower level traits, and adjust their attainability. Beyond that, I think maybe switching some of them up so that, for example, line 1, trait 2 isn’t the same for every profession. Maybe for a thief it’s a JP, for a mesmer it’s an event, etc. Nothing insane, but something to mix it up and keep things fresh.

Additionally, map completion for a trait might be a bit much… Most of the maps are pretty kitten big.

While I have been behind Anet’s decision to have events and game content be the manner that traits are unlocked…. this I can get behind.

I really think it would make for a more interesting game, if the trait unlocked were in content somehow related to the trait acquired.

In gw1 Elite skills were unlocked by hunting down a Boss Mob that used that skill… going with a Capture signet which basically ate up One of your skills, so while normally you had access to 8…Now you only had 7. You had to kill the Mob… that gave you it’s trait.

Deep down I do miss this. I do feel that instead of map “Complete map bla bla.” for all classes it should depend on the mobs in the zone. If a Lot of condition casters, maybe Only a Condition trait is available? Need Not be class specific, even thieves use conditions.

Or if you want a mesmer trait unlocked, why Not have it be used by a Champion that uses mesmer skills?

You see where I am going.

I went Into the charr starting area to pick up a couple easy Skillpoints. As soon as I logged In..BAM…. 1 every 10 to 15 seconds… got to where at first I would report each as it arrived. After I ended up having a few More while reporting one, I decided … eff it… I Played through got My skill points then went back to report each …I found 7…

I think for some reason the Charr are getting hit hard. Not sure why, In Human lands i didn’t get a single Gold seller. Go Humans!!! < jk>

nGumball.1283:

Lishtenbird.2814:

nGumball.1283:

Mesmer doesn’t do enough damage at 80? squishy?
If the mesmer does know how to play, they would win a warrior quite easily.

Yesterday in EoTM me (a mes with Traveler’s +25% speed bonus and Blink) and a couple of other players chased a warrior for about a minute just to catch it, dent it and finally kill it when it just stood in a corner and didn’t try to run anymore.

I got my last not killed profession achievement yesterday, after a Deer and a half ranks, in 1v1 on a capped point after a decent fight; that profession was a warrior.

No, warriors are not a slightest bit overpowered.

nGumball.1283:

Instead of grind you can grind WvW, grind Pvp, grind and craft, grind dungeons etc etc etc.

FTFY.

nGumball.1283:

It is the players who are can’t accept a game where you can do different stuff, focusing on a specific kind of content to call it grind later on, blaming the company for it. If you want to grind, that’s your personal choice.

Current leveling is exactly a system which takes a player by the hand and makes it do what they wouldn’t have done otherwise because they didn’t find it fun.

And why didn’t they find it fun? Because in unlocking traits for an alt there’s nothing new. You’re opposed to these players, yet approving of the system which promotes it.

If you consider ever form of playing grinding then you shouldn’t play MMOs cause that’s how they are.

I have to agree. I remember loving EverQuest. Anyone that hates ’ the grind" on Gw2…would literally fling EverQuest out the window. I think that there are some players that see play= grind. Unless what they are doing is " what I want to do."

They fail to realize that most MMO’s prior to World of Warcraft made players earn what they attained. Maybe it’s simply that most players have only started playing MMO’s with World of Warcraft or a World of Warcraft clone, and Now feel that The WoW template where everything is handed to them On a silver platter .. (compared with games Like EverQuest… where most had to be clawed out and gouged out at risk to life, limb, and inventory…. Look up corpse runs … exp loss on death… etc. ) Gw2 seems to be following the GW1/EQ format.

Sometimes having more challenge makes for a better game. If people approach this game with that in mind, maybe they will see these changes are not bad for the game, just harder than things were before.

reminds me of this scene. Sometimes The Hard is what makes it Great.

I also have a level 24 thief I started Playing after the patch. By this time I would have 14 trait points. That means One major adept trait and working almost to a Minor adept trait.

When I played my main thief to 80.. by this point I was working towards a specific build. Since respeccs cost money, doesn’t matter that it was inexpensive, they still cost money, and I hate to spend money if I can avoid it. I found My playstyle was pretty much Locked in.

I had the utilities I needed to play the build I was working on, I had My main weapon Welded to my main hand, my offhand welded to my offhand…and My shortbow welded to my second weapon set.

Now I have no traits at all. I expected it would be a grueling experience. What I have discovered is…. I feel free to experiment with my weapons more. I feel free to use utilities I never really used much. Used to be a Pistol/dagger stealth thief. Now I use dagger/dagger in second slot, and dagger/pistol in main Loving Pistol whip.

I used to use only hide in shadows as a heal, all the way from about 15 to 80. Now I use the signet bla bla that gives me heals per attacks. Using caltrops from time to time… and Skelk Poison Just to see the effects of torment.

I think you can see where I am going. While on paper… and maybe In experience..NOT having trait points til 30…seems Like a Huge nerf. For me at least it has opened up the game because I experiment more, I change My weapon selections more often in a Given day…I change My utilities just as often. Which sort of reminds me of the play I enjoyed in gw1.

If this was their intent, at least according to my experience, they succeeded and it was an awesome change… an imporivement on the game. That + Megaserver has made this a BETTER game for me.

Playing a New Mesmer. I already have a Human mesmer, but decided to play another just to experience the new trait system. I am Not gonna be riding any Champion Trains, I will Not be getting assistance from high level alts. Will rely on whatever help I can get from Guildies to do events too hard for me to do simply with the help of My wife.

I am going to focus on map completion, and Personal story… and any events that happen along, along with daily, and monthly.

carry only bags I can craft, and wear only armor I find or craft. I feel before theory-crafters put a game down, they should play the game with an open mind.

Instead of seeing the game from the perspective of " Lokk what I had before!!!" they should ask." Ok, let me with an open mind, disregarding what I had before… ask myself..what do I have now?"

I feel a lotof the anxiety is because everyone had a simple path to 80, getting traits was painless. Buy a mnual , and tada!

I realize a LOT of players here are playing new characters, but some, I don’t think all…but some, are only going through the experience saying to themse.ves…" before the patch by this Point i would have Bla bla bla…and bla bla bla..and Now I don’t."

Maybe if we put our experiences of pre-patch gw2 aside, and try to see the game with new eyes, you may find it’s more fun? Just a thought.

Doghouse.1562:

Nerelith.7360:

This having to do really hard to almost impossible things to acquire traits is not new to gw2.

So what? That’s not remotely a justification. Most games have learned from the bad decisions of the past and moved on.

And just because a lot of players want it when they want it, and do not want to have to do things later…put things off til later in the game….doesn’t make what gw2 did …a mistake.

Glossing over the unnecessary descent to the adhominem : most people commenting here seem to have been happy with the pace of the perfectly good, working system GW2 had before. There’s nothing inherently wrong with changing that, if the replacement is reasonable. In this case, in my opinion the change is massively flawed, in several ways that I and others have documented, and if left unrectified, could easily prove to be the nail in GW2’s coffin. Clearly you don’t agree. Fine, you’re entitled to your opinion as well. Time will tell what the community as a whole feels, and ultimately the market will vote with its feet.

Rage quitters are Just people unhappy with change, they feel that they can rile enough people to " vote with their feet" they seldom do. I hardly believe that Anet is quaking in their boots because some people on the forums are threatening to rage-quit.

rstripn.8697:

I edited this section from my last post so much that I decided to just remove it from the previous one and make it a new post

The gold cost of trait unlocks needs tweaking.

• These costs need to be set carefully. If the cost is too low, there is no reason to use unlock quests. If the cost is too high, players will be effectively forced into doing content they may have no interest in. The only criteria for setting these values should be desired typical new player development.
• I suspect that from an economy standpoint, these costs were at least partially designed to offset the money sink lost when armor repairs were made free. Any such non-gameplay reasoning should not play any part in setting these costs.
• The typical player usually only uses one trait per slot while levelling, so it should be relatively cheap to unlock one trait per slot. If the player wants build diversity via additional traits, then they should either have to work for it (quest unlocks) or pay a high cost for it.
• These costs must be set based on the assumption of the character being the first character of a new player. If they are set in relation to the accumulated wealth of a multi-character older player, it would both cripple new players and effectively punish the older players for saving up gold.
• Suggestion: Increasing unlock costs. The first Adept trait in each line should be very “cheap” to unlock via gold for a typical new level 30 character. Unlocking a second should be “not cheap”. Unlocking a third should be “expensive”. Etc, etc. The same goes for Master traits, with costs set in relation to the typical gold of a new level 60 character, and for Grandmaster traits in relation to the typical gold of a new level 80 character.
• I’m not giving exact values for things, just criteria, because I don’t have the data you have. If you want an exact mathematical breakdown of how much things should cost, I can do that, but I’ll need a bunch of data, time, and probably some irl money.

As always, thanks for listening.

I like it. Thumbs up for thinking outside the box.

Doghouse.1562:

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

My maths degree says that using maths proves nothing (except possibly that you’re getting desperate). Like the man said, Nerelith – you’re trolling.

There are now basically two awful ways of doing things. The fact that within those there are lots of awful variants that can be stitched together in lots of awful combinations doesn’t somehow magically make the overall result palatable.

As I said in a previous post, if you go all the way back to EverQuest there have been occasions where to aquire a specific spell… you might not get it when you might be able to use it, or made aquiring it a hard fought experience.

if you are interested, look up what was entailed In getting the spell Mesmerization for Enchanter. Or the level 8, 12, 16 sword and shield pet. or higher level Elementals for Mages.

This having to do really hard to almost impossible things to acquire traits is not new to gw2. And just because a lot of players want it when they want it, and do not want to have to do things later…put things off til later in the game….doesn’t make what gw2 did …a mistake.

Yes, I know that everyone wants all the adept traits by level 36. But just because some require that you complete a level 50 map only means you put it off til level 50, or… get a few friends to assist you from your guild….. or…. pay for it with Gold and Skillspoints.

As for me I will be trying to acquire them, maybe my super friendly cool Guild will lend a hand.

An opportunity for Grouping and communal experiences.

Missy.7356:

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

Nerelith.7360:

My Opinion on the current trait system. I think all in all it’s a good one.

…..snip….

PPS I hear a LOT of players talk about how they do Not like " grinding". I remember playing MMO’s before WoW was released. And back then there was a totally different meaning to the term “grind”. Let’s just say that what many new players call grinding… back then was called…. playing.

It seems many players that play MMO’s want it handed to them on a platter and do not really like playing.

try it. go and actually play an alt and tell me it feels better than it used to feel to level.
enjoy having to wait 30 levels to refine your style, and once you hit 30, you only have the equivalent build you used to have at 15.
See how much you enjoy having traits in zones that are 10 levels higher than you are, as your goals.

i get the feeling you are focusing too much on the number conversion of 1 per five levels, and not the real thing people are complaining about, the push back of build refinement by 20 levels and the poorly designed quests to get them.

You know you have a good point. Now let me ask you this. if I level a character …starting tonight or tomorrow to level 80, and still say the same thing I am saying now… what will your responce be then?

I have a feeling even after i do this, if I should still say " I love these changes" you will simply come up with a reason to invalidate my opinion.

So please, Go on record. What will be proven to you, if I start a level 1 character. And get her to level 80, Under the new system, if My opinion remains unchanged?

i will try to analyze what you liked, and disliked, and figure how to improve the system for all. I mean if its really fun, its all good. But i started up a charachter, and i quickly was like, hmm feels like this will be a lot better if autolevel to 30 then do it.

but hey, screw it, ill play with you if you want. Lets travel the road to hel together

Im dont have an agenda or a team here, i am looking at the game overall, and how it is for new players and alt players. I have 8 professions of every class i dont have to level a lowbie ever again, so its more about other players experience for me.

Sounds too Much like " I will reserve the right to disqualify your experience, and invalidate your opinion." No thanks. Tell you what though, make your level 1 Character On tarnished coast, we will level and experience the new changes together.

If your planning on seeing how hard it is for new people, do it without spending any of the Gold your 80’s made, remember they wont be able to do dungeons now til they are 80 or find a caring guild to help them or tag as many mobs in the zergfests.

Actually that is exactly what I am doing. I am Buying bags off the merchant using 4 slotters at the Moment. Will make My Mesmer a tailor, so she can make her opwn bags, that means I use up the Gold i have acquired less.

it is Impossible to un-mingle the gold my new mesmer earns from what was earned before…but I will not be buying major and superior sigils and runes as soon as they become available, nor will i be buying Exotics asap either….My main mesmer just now got Exotics.

I do find it a Bit… disturbing that people would question that I understand that to fully experience what a new player means…. cutting my new character off as much as Possible from what my Older characters have attained. No insta -20 scrolls…etc… No Instant Skill point scrolls… I know that a true test requires i immerse myself as Much as I can into the experience of a new player. Otherwise the results don’t show anything worth while.

PS My girlfriend suggested I allow her to make me 15 slot bags… I told her thanks but no thanks and explained why. She said " No one would ever know. " I said " I would… Integrity is what you do when you know that no one is watching."

DeceiverX.8361:

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

A list of the options for gaining any given trait:

• do the assigned task.

• buy it.

The mathematical sum of those options:

1 + 1 = 2.

You admit that your calculation is based on assumptions (opinion based at that). Mine is not. By your logic my math trumps yours.

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

Except your math, despite being correct by concept, is irrelevant.
It’s like if you were asked what 5 + 5 is, and then proved that 50 – 5 = 45. Your math actually has nothing to do with what’s being discussed.

What you did was count combinations. What you didn’t do was properly address how many means of acquisition there are.

In reality, this value is 3. That said, it is implied that it should be 2, as the options for the decision are as follows and apply to each and every trait.
1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.
2.) One explores for the trait.
3.) One purchases the traits.

Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.

So per trait, one has two options (hence 1 + 1 = 2), and as mentioned above, some are quite literally impossible to do even remotely near acquisition in regards to the exploration option.

Therefore, one is indeed forced into merely one option in order to unlock the trait. Quite frankly, this is poor design. Even then, forced PvE/WvW exploration is also poor design. The game is marketed as allowing players to play in any way they wish. This does not abide to that mentality. This is even more prevalent if ANet has any further intentions of trying to legitimize sPvP and WvW.

Not to mention the slowed down progression also hurts new players and makes slower what is already considered to be a slow early game progression in comparison to many other games. I personally know of more than thirty people who have picked up this game before this patch and have quit within the first day or two because the early levels and progression were already too slow for them and too restrictive in what they had to do to level up.

Meanwhile, one still needs to purchase traits from the same NPC despite the intention of on-the-go swapping to be able to be done anywhere. Most people who reset their builds frequently either do it near the spawn in WvW or before they go dungeoning, and usually stick to that particular build. Additionally, new players which “screw up” their builds will still not have any use for the trait reset feature since they will be lacking getting any new traits to begin with.

This implementation failed on all fronts to achieve what it intended to, and simply stating that your opinion is correct “because math” is clearly demonstrative not only of your lack of comprehension of the subject, but also in that your math and logical reasoning are incoherent.

You say :“1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.”

then say “Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.”

I do not accept that it is implicite at all. There are many people that will Look over some traits, decide either that they do not fit their build concept. Are too onerous for them to aquire, too expensive to buy at this time, and will forgo many traits.

Not every player is a completionist that needs EVERY trait as soon as they are able to use those traits.

I Played EverQuest. And In that game you needed to hunt down the spell vendors for your spells so at say level 19, you had to go into a zone that may or may Not have mobs 5 to 7 levels higher than you were. Also you might or might Not have all the gold necessary to buy all your spells. SOME spells required you to kill certain mobs over and over. And some required you to hunt down crafing compnents to research the spell, that was on RNG… the Higer your research trait the better chance of crafting the spell…but sometimes you had continuous failures… trust me.. gw2 has made it easy in comparison.

So the idea that traits MIGHT require that things be done that a typical character of that level may not be able to do, is not new. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad decision, just an unpopular one.

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

There are many options… you can do the events for trait lines 1 and 4, and decide you rather spend gold + skillpoints for 2, 3, and 5. You can also do the events for 2, and 4, and then pay skillpoints + gold for 1, 3, and 5. etc….

You can decide to forgo trait line 3, and only get the other 4. The decide to pay Gold for only 1, and 4, and pay gold for 2 and 5. Etc, etc, etc….

This is More than just " 2 options"

But even so….even…if it is ONLY 2 options….. someone used the word " forced" EVEN if all you have is 2 options, and the facts are you have a LOT more than 2. Once you have a second option it is not forced.

I Understand many players Liked just buying a manual at levels 11,40 and 60. And for many that was fine and easier than the new system.

But saying " the new options are not options since for us they are unpleasant…." does Not automatically make them unpleasant for everyone… Just for you.

THAT is mear opinion. many like to toss these about as if they were fact, simply because someone declares them fact.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does Not make them a troll…just someone that disagrees with you.

1) I prefer the new set up. I like it alot.

2) I did not call you, or anyone else for that matter, a troll.

3) I did not say that the options are unpleasant.

4) Having two options does not mean that something is not forced. You can be forced to choose between two unpleasant options. “Get shot or Give me the money,” at gun point in a robbery is a solid example of this (and no I am nto saying that Anet is holding a gun to anyone’s head, just pointing out the fact that two options exist does not inherently make something not forced).

5) For any given trait have only two options. For all traits you have only two options. Being able to select the same two options repeatedly does not make for more than two options, just multiple instances of the same two. You will only have ever made the choice between task or gold+skill point. Again, you may have made that choice multiple times but still only two options.

No one is putting a Gun to your face. The OIptions are more trivial…. do some content, or pay some in gamne Gold… and skillpoints.. your analogy is Not a good one to the circumstances.

Each time you toss a coin you are faced with ONLY two options…doesn’t matter how often… only 2 options. that you toss it 5 times…. doesn’t mean that the chances of getting 5 heads In a row are one is 31. they are clearly only 2 Options. so they are only 1 in 2 according to you.

Secondly… the options being unpleasant is mearly your opinion, and those that like you see the tasks as either too onerous or too costly. I am one that doesn’t find either. I can choose to either do a task, or if I find the task unpleasant, pay in Gold + skillpoints.

But that is my opinion. Yours is that the tasks are too onerous, and the costs too expensive. But that is also your opinion. The fact that a LOT of you agree with one another, doesn’t make your opinions fact.

PS I am rolling a new mesmer, just hit level 6. And enjoying it. But again, as I said before… that is just my opinion. We all have them.

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

There are many options… you can do the events for trait lines 1 and 4, and decide you rather spend gold + skillpoints for 2, 3, and 5. You can also do the events for 2, and 4, and then pay skillpoints + gold for 1, 3, and 5. etc….

You can decide to forgo trait line 3, and only get the other 4. The decide to pay Gold for only 1, and 4, and pay gold for 2 and 5. Etc, etc, etc….

This is More than just " 2 options"

But even so….even…if it is ONLY 2 options….. someone used the word " forced" EVEN if all you have is 2 options, and the facts are you have a LOT more than 2. Once you have a second option it is not forced.

I Understand many players Liked just buying a manual at levels 11,40 and 60. And for many that was fine and easier than the new system.

But saying " the new options are not options since for us they are unpleasant…." does Not automatically make them unpleasant for everyone… Just for you.

THAT is mear opinion. many like to toss these about as if they were fact, simply because someone declares them fact.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does Not make them a troll…just someone that disagrees with you.

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

A list of the options for gaining any given trait:

• do the assigned task.

• buy it.

The mathematical sum of those options:

1 + 1 = 2.

You admit that your calculation is based on assumptions (opinion based at that). Mine is not. By your logic my math trumps yours.

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

beGreen.4190:

Lack of Diversity is bad for every game, especially massively multiplayer one.
Before i get to QQ let me introduce myself

I’ve always played as healer or support in every kind of RPG game so when i started playing GW my first class of choice was guardian – just because it was labeled as a support and team player. Not expecting it to be WoW-like healbot i finally settled in hammer/staff AH build with knight gear. I was really happy with it because it was giving me exactly what i wanted, reactive support game play with decent survivability and damage, it was also pretty competitive in dungeons and fotm (at the times when 20 level was the highest beatable one).

And then zerker meta came…

Most of zerker jerks are actually right, you don’t anything than uber dps to stomp hardest of dungeons and only justification for not running full zerker build is lack of skill and sloppy dodging, what is more i even agree with the statement that crit damage nerf makes the game even worse since zerker groups can’t carry 1-non zerker.

What the game needs to increase diversity and make people that just hate all-in damage game play happy again is either nerfing berserker into oblivion or changing whole dungeon system on a deep level.

First option is probably a bad idea because as i genuinely love supporting and healing there are surely people who genuinely love low survivability and high spikes of crits and the should have their fun too.

What second option needs is in my opinion:

-Adjusting condition cap in dungeons so condition based builds aren’t kitten by it. Condition build become viable = more diversity = profit.

-Adding “threat” system and making the AI slightly better so high damage dealing players are getting focused by bosses and thus are having harder time (I’ve read about threat system in gw2 before but i’ve never seen it work tbh)

-Changing at least one encounter in every path in every dungeon to have type of damage that can’t be mitigated by dodging to make healing and boons more relevant (i am talking snowstorm in svanir fractal, homing missiles, melee attacks that can’t be dodged etc. )

-Changing some of the bosses large abilities trigger from “cast every 5 minutes” to cast every “33% of health lost”. Assuming that it takes 5 minutes for a zerk group and 15 minutes for a normal group to take down one single boss it doesn’t change anything to a normal group but makes zerk group’s life harder because instead of one big hit they have to withstand 3 of them.

-Adjusting traits, abilites and stats to a level where being full time supporter is not being laughed at, increasing impact of healing power and adding utility and healing skills that can be used to effectively support others (like guardian’s healing breeze but actually useful)

-Adjusting traits, abilities and stats so being more sturdy doesn’t mean one can’t dodge… for example traits that increase threat making boss more likely to attack “the tank” or control abilities that involve getting hit to prevent damage on teammates.

I am aware of fact that changes I’am proposing would turn the class system more to mmo’s holy trinity (tank-dps-healer) but i really wouldn’t like to see gw transformed into WoW. What i’d like to see is more diversity, interesting meta and one’s ability to play whatever style he or she wishes to.

holy trinity is actually more interesting and deep than holy entity (full berseker warrior)

I’d love to hear your input
-

I Like your ideas. As to the Trinity thing. When I first heard about gw2’s developement, MY understanding was that there would be a Trinity. Control, Damage, and Support.

My understanding at the time was that NO class would be locked Into a trinity position, but that ALL classes could pick and choose from all three when they wanted.

With the new " respecc free at any time while out of combat. " we are getting that now. But the problem seems to be that the people NOT playing Berserker DPS are ither people Playing skills and builds that are cool for them, or people that have difficulty with the " dodge and zerg" playstyle.

I believe the devs need to re-imagine content so that groups need " a trinity" Not necessarilly classes Locked Into a trinity position…but where they ask " Ok, who is gonna provide crowd control this time? who is on boons this time? who are DPS?"

Also I think more needs to be done about Threat. Why does it make sense that my gf the guardian in Cnainmail with mace and shield is bashing the mob to heck..I summon one illusion, which runs in, does 0 damage, but then I get agro?

I love this game, In general i love the steps they have taken, I just hope the game does more to encourage diversity.

Scarran.9845:

Nerelith.7360:

<snip>
This seems to be plenty of options.

I get it, you really like the new system and it has been proven by the numerous posts in this thread you have done advocating it. The thing is some of us do not like this new system and thats our opinion and the thing about opinions is that everyone has one.

Does it make your enjoyment of the game any less by us disliking it?……nope. I have stated why I dislike the system and I understand that you like the system. For those of us who dislike the system we have stated the reasons why we dislike the system. But constantly posting trying to alters people’s opinions just because it differs from you is wrong.

I dislike brussel sprouts, it doesn’t matter how you try to mix them up, alter them I will still always dislike brussel sprouts. I dont need someone trying to force brussel sprouts down my throat just because they enjoy them and I dont. That is the way your posts are coming accross, I understand that you disagree with alot of the posts in this thread but no matter what you put I am still going to dislike this new system because that is my opinion and im entitled to it whether you agree with it or not.

I hope you have fun with the new system levelling but myself I would rather not put myself through what the new system brings.

I Misunderstand. So you who dislike the system, get to come On the forums to say you dislike the system. And the devs will read that you dislike the system, and new players will read opinions like " we are FORCED to play the way Anet says."

But when I come on and share mine, somehow that is me trying to force you to believe as i do?

I respectfully disagree. I could make the same argument and say that you will never convince me, so stop posting.

I am not Posting for you anyway. I am simply saying " I Like the new system." and I am saying it so that the devs see that some players can appreciate what they did here, and that it’s Not ALL people hating it, just a Bunch of vocal people.

It is estimated that only 3 to 5 % of players Post on the forums. it is also known that most of the people that post are not pleased by some aspect of the game, so complainers on the forums are out of proportion to people that are happy with given changes.

I am simply here, speaking as a person that likes the changes. Your post seems to imply that since I will never convince you, nor any of those that dislike the system, i should shut up, and go my merry way.

That isn’t what you are saying is it? maybe I misunderstood you?

AlexEBT.7240:

Nerelith.7360:

I took the time to figure out mathematically How many different combinations there are of aquiring traits, for the sake of simplicity and since I am Not a mathematicion, and had to figure it out with pencil, and a few pieces of paper, I calculated How many different ways there are to pay for the 5 NEW grandmaster traits only.

Of course if you add the master and adept traits the number oc combinations increases. If anyone is a mathematician and wishes to do this as a mental exercise we can see exactly how many different combinations there are of paying for all the traits.

I made some assumptions, I assumed that some players may only want one trait, some may want 2, some three, some 4 and some all 5.

I also assumed that not all would pick 100 % of one or 100 % of the other manner to pay for it, but may mix, and match….

maybe Lines 1 and 4 are done as events and maybe 23, and 5 are paid for with cash and skill points etc…

there are 5 traits and 2 different ways to pay for those traits:
I used the following website

http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html

which gave me the following formula for figuring how to group n items taken in groups of r:

Number of cominations = n!/[(n-r)!x(r!)]

so I used that to figure out How to group 5 items taken at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 at a time… came up with

5 + 10 + 10 + 5 + 1= 31

then we get complicated, since there are 2 different ways of paying for each combination… and this at this point is beyond my ability to calculate.

all I Know is.."The true Number of combinations of paying for all the NEW grandmaster traits since you can either 1. do events or 2. pay with skillpoints and gold " > 31.

But assume there are only 32, even though we KNOW it is gonna be a Lot more than 32. if anyone would Like to work up the math i would appreciate a math lesson in IM :P

That means there are at LEAST 32 Possible combinations on how to aquire one, any or all the new grandmaster traits…..

then add in the master, and the adept… and I have to wonder…

FORCE = lack of Options.

…

This seems to be plenty of options.

Ok, the mental acrobatics are getting silly.
In the case of each trait you only have 2 options: you either do the task given which is in some cases is completely inappropiate in respective to the level of the player (WvW, higher lvl content then the moment of aquistion) or too time consuming (map completion on 12 maps…maybe more don’t qoute me on this) or you pay for it (new players haven’t got much in the way of funds). That’s it.

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

I took the time to figure out mathematically How many different combinations there are of aquiring traits, for the sake of simplicity and since I am Not a mathematicion, and had to figure it out with pencil, and a few pieces of paper, I calculated How many different ways there are to pay for the 5 NEW grandmaster traits only.

Of course if you add the master and adept traits the number oc combinations increases. If anyone is a mathematician and wishes to do this as a mental exercise we can see exactly how many different combinations there are of paying for all the traits.

I made some assumptions, I assumed that some players may only want one trait, some may want 2, some three, some 4 and some all 5.

I also assumed that not all would pick 100 % of one or 100 % of the other manner to pay for it, but may mix, and match….

maybe Lines 1 and 4 are done as events and maybe 23, and 5 are paid for with cash and skill points etc…

there are 5 traits and 2 different ways to pay for those traits:
I used the following website

http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html

which gave me the following formula for figuring how to group n items taken in groups of r:

Number of cominations = n!/[(n-r)!x(r!)]

so I used that to figure out How to group 5 items taken at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 at a time… came up with :

5C1 + 5C2+ 5C3 + 5C4 + 5C5 =

5 + 10 + 10 + 5 + 1= 31

then we get complicated, since there are 2 different ways of paying for each combination… and this at this point is beyond my ability to calculate.

all I Know is.."The true Number of combinations of paying for all the NEW grandmaster traits since you can either 1. do events or 2. pay with skillpoints and gold " > 31.

But assume there are only 32, even though we KNOW it is gonna be a Lot more than 32. if anyone would Like to work up the math i would appreciate a math lesson in IM :P

That means there are at LEAST 32 Possible combinations on how to aquire one, any or all the new grandmaster traits…..

then add in the master, and the adept… and I have to wonder…

FORCE = lack of Options.

…

This seems to be plenty of options.

felessan.9587:

Nerelith.7360:

TriggerSad.2597:

Nerelith.7360:

Talissa Chan.7208:

Being forced when you have two options -
sir – you must pay money and skillpoints or as a special option – you may wait till you hit level 70 and map an area for that skill even though you need that skill now in order to effectively reach 70.
its a bit like –
would you like the prawns you’re allergic to for dinner or the spinach that gives you the runs?
But keep bumping the thread bro.

Thing is, Both Options amount to the same thing….

Either… do the event or the map completion required…. ( Playing The Game)

or

Hunt down Skill points and Gold .. which is easy to earn just Playing the game ( Playing the game)

Seems that some people Just do not Like to play the game, and want things handed to them on a silver platter. I even spoke to someone I had a discussion with that disagreed with me, and after trying a Low level character told me that they liked having to do In game content to unlock traits instead of Just paying for a manual…. with all the new people On mega-server to help, it made it a communal experience again. Like an MMO should be.

The thing is, why do some of these requirements have to involve clearing a whole map and personal story? Do you know how many Events, Mini Dungeons, Jumping Puzzles, little nooks with interesting NPCs and other random content inside all of the low-mid and mid level zones? ArenaNets had hundreds of options to choose from that could easily had people out and about in the world, yet they went with the options that make players spends hours on content they may not even like doing. It gets to the point where some of these requirements feel like ArenaNet just wanting to turn them into currency sinks because they know some players wouldn’t want to go for the free way. It may have not been their intentions, but it comes across as such.

No one is forcing you to complete maps. You can pay go to any map you want, Hunt down the skill points, and save up the gold…anywhere…. and Not have to complete the map.

As I said, BOTH options are Playing the game. You get to decide which options you want, and then…play the game.

Are you saying you dislike Playing the game?

As I tried to point out, a large chunk of this content is level-gated. We don’t have the /option/ to play the game in those cases and are /forced/ to spend money.

No one is forced to spend Money. You do not need to have the adept traits by level 36. You can easilly do content of your level without a single trait.

you want, to do not need. if you do not have those traits it’s not Like you will fail 100 % of the time, you won’t even fail 5 % of the time.

You do not need a single trait, thereofre no one is forcing you. You are the one chosing to spend the money, to get the adept traits by level 36.

TriggerSad.2597:

Nerelith.7360:

Talissa Chan.7208:

Being forced when you have two options -
sir – you must pay money and skillpoints or as a special option – you may wait till you hit level 70 and map an area for that skill even though you need that skill now in order to effectively reach 70.
its a bit like –
would you like the prawns you’re allergic to for dinner or the spinach that gives you the runs?
But keep bumping the thread bro.

Thing is, Both Options amount to the same thing….

Either… do the event or the map completion required…. ( Playing The Game)

or

Hunt down Skill points and Gold .. which is easy to earn just Playing the game ( Playing the game)

Seems that some people Just do not Like to play the game, and want things handed to them on a silver platter. I even spoke to someone I had a discussion with that disagreed with me, and after trying a Low level character told me that they liked having to do In game content to unlock traits instead of Just paying for a manual…. with all the new people On mega-server to help, it made it a communal experience again. Like an MMO should be.

The thing is, why do some of these requirements have to involve clearing a whole map and personal story? Do you know how many Events, Mini Dungeons, Jumping Puzzles, little nooks with interesting NPCs and other random content inside all of the low-mid and mid level zones? ArenaNets had hundreds of options to choose from that could easily had people out and about in the world, yet they went with the options that make players spends hours on content they may not even like doing. It gets to the point where some of these requirements feel like ArenaNet just wanting to turn them into currency sinks because they know some players wouldn’t want to go for the free way. It may have not been their intentions, but it comes across as such.

No one is forcing you to complete maps. You can pay go to any map you want, Hunt down the skill points, and save up the gold…anywhere…. and Not have to complete the map.

As I said, BOTH options are Playing the game. You get to decide which options you want, and then…play the game.

Are you saying you dislike Playing the game?

Duke Nukem.6783:

Ronah.2869:

Let them talk, this is what real life is. Everyone talks and make sounds. You don’t want to listen? Fine. Put on some headphones connected to your phone and play some music

ronah please dont pretend that a desire for “realism” is justifacation for your trolling

and no in real life people saying the same thing over and over and over gets them a quick knock to the nose if im around (and if i think nobody important is watching) but i digress….

Wait are you saying all the Police Officers in your Hometown don’t go around saying things Like.." PROTECTED AND SERVED!!!!" every 8 seconds???

Nourhadine.6451:

I guess thats the trade off of having skins unlocked and account wide.. Its either you buy extractor or new set of Sigil all the time you have a new and better equipments… hmmm..

New sigils are cheap. Just sayin’

Armor tiers are level based. Minor, major and superior runes and sigils are also level based. That is how the devs want it.

I personally get a feeling of anticipation when I can finally wear tier III armor, both the cultural, and the crafted. I Anticipate being able to finally get armor with three stats.

I enjoy anticipating being able to usee major and superior runes. This for me is part of the progression.

If they eliminated levels, and let me have superior runes and tier III armor day one, the game would be lack any feeling of accomplishment. At that point I would feel like .." why play an MMO that gives me everything day one? for that i’ll go play an FPS, except I hate FPS’s… Why turn an MMORPG into an FPS?"

Mega-server is not going anywhere. People need to simply accept it, and let the devs know of the faults so they can be fixed. Things like people In the same guild ending up on different servers. Or people In a the same party…etc….

But you will get more responces from" this is not working as you said.. you said..bla bla bla..and this is Not what is happening" than from " OMG you kittens…. get rid of this aweful POS!!!"

Talissa Chan.7208:

Being forced when you have two options -
sir – you must pay money and skillpoints or as a special option – you may wait till you hit level 70 and map an area for that skill even though you need that skill now in order to effectively reach 70.
its a bit like –
would you like the prawns you’re allergic to for dinner or the spinach that gives you the runs?
But keep bumping the thread bro.

Thing is, Both Options amount to the same thing….

Either… do the event or the map completion required…. ( Playing The Game)

or

Hunt down Skill points and Gold .. which is easy to earn just Playing the game ( Playing the game)

Seems that some people Just do not Like to play the game, and want things handed to them on a silver platter. I even spoke to someone I had a discussion with that disagreed with me, and after trying a Low level character told me that they liked having to do In game content to unlock traits instead of Just paying for a manual…. with all the new people On mega-server to help, it made it a communal experience again. Like an MMO should be.

HelixSky.4951:

Nerelith.7360:

Ok, I Just finished the fight with High Priestess of Lyssa, and obtained the Illusions XIII trait. There have been many saying that these Events are Impossible to accomplish with mega server since there will always be people there to mess up the fight. Maybe it’s because I am on Tarnished Coast. Maybe it’s because players In there are generally more cooperative.

All I know is, all it took was some communication on map chat. " do not defend against those mobs..just wait.." a few times…. people stood around and chatted, when they weren’t avoiding and diodging and running away from mobs without engaging them. It is Not " Impossible."

I have unlocked 3 out of 5 grandmaster traits in 4 days. That hardly sounds “Impossible”. Try a different argument. This one is not compelling anymore.

That negates the basic concept of Guild Wars 2 that other people should not be able to ruin your content. I’d hate to be yelled at because I simply wanted to fight the mobs in front of me.

Who said anything about Yelling? we explained what we were doing, and asked them to either not defend .. so that we could get out GM trait, or join in, so they can get theirs. No one yelled at anyone, as I said..maybe it’s just because I am from TC, we are nice to one another.

Sometimes people assume that others are " being yelled at." that isn’t How it went.

I Just Killed High Priestess of Lyssa for my theif. Same MO… spoke Nicely to people, asked them to NOT defend against the risen so that the High Priestess could be summoned, and explained why…. they were Nice about it, and stopped… then we all took down Lyssa. When people communicate, what at first seems impossible.." OMGZ Megaservers means we never see Lyssa again!!!!" Becomes Possible." Hi, please don’t attack the risen so that they can summon Lyssa?"" huh? why?" " this way we can get our GM trait" " Oh ok…I’ll help :-)"

Jinroh.4251:

It really hurts new players and alts. What ever happened to not forcing players to play a certain way?

How exactly are you being forced when you have two options? Having options is the opposite of being forced.

skoezi.9472:

Asacledhae.2650:

skoezi.9472:

As you think it is that bad, why do you play, why do you even bother to comment here.
You better can play some other game, but i think there is nothing like gw, ones you play gw2 you always miss things when you play an other mmo.

I have a question for you, friend.
How much money is A-Net paying you to support the megaserver the way it is, and wanting it to expand?

Are you a US player, by any chance? Cause if you are, then you’re probably oblivious on what’s going on in EU servers. So take your time and visit one, and see if you’ll be able to enjoy the game as you say… Unless of course you speak English, Spanish, German, French, Greek, and every other language the chat is getting these days. And i bet you don’t RP at all, or even not sure what that is.

And no, turning zone chat off won’t save the situation.

So to answer YOUR question, the reason we still “play” and bother to comment here, is cause we like the game. We like the new changes, i have no issue with the new leveling system, i have no issue with the changes. Heck, i adore the new wardrobe. However, the megaserver needs work. It’s in early alpha stages, and it should’ve stayed contained in a few areas, until ready for full deployment.

I like seeing more players in one area. MORE players, not zerg. And of course, not Zerg who assault me for either speaking English, or RPlaying.

So instead of praising them for giving us something broken, join our voices and help us push them to fix it, so it can work properly.

I am an eu player, and i don’t speak the language you speak of as mother language.
And no i don’t play RP but i know what it is and i don’t have anything against players who do it.
I think it is nice that you do it.
And i don’t know why they assualt you for speaking english, i have no prob with it.

And i understand that you want it to be better, everything can always be better, but sometimes it’s good to say good things, i liked my experience till now with the megaserver so that is wat i said.

i havend seen anything bad for me with the megaserver so why would’t i say what is bad about it, as i have nothing bad to say. (till now)

We have an expression:

" Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

I agree with you. Just because the changes are not perfect, we cannot say " go back to the Old mess, unbtil you come up with perfection."

Sometimes good enough for now, is good enough… for now.

nGumball.1283:

DavidH.7380:

Here is what I don’t understand about the complaints. Open world leveling content has to be tuned for the new player with their first character still learning how to play the game. If you already know how to play the game, that content is already going to be easy. If you also have a reasonably strong trait build that supports your skill and weapon selections, and have good gear with supporting attributes, that same content is now going to be stupidly easy. And you can’t make the content hard enough to be interesting to that player on an alt without making is way to difficult for the new player still wet behind their ears.

TLDR: Early trait points just make lower level difficulty even less challenging for experienced players on alts.

Most people who complain though are veteran players. I do understand how many new people have commented and said it sucks but I do honestly not believe that most of those people are new. Yes, I maybe misjudging, I maybe the worst humanbieng ever…but I am not really used to the fact that new players seem to understand builds, have followed all the updates to the game since months, are vets when it comes to other aspects of the game and then put an ending line ‘’I am still level 45 and I am not enjoying the game becasue of the trait change’’.

Now that you mention it, this Kinda makes sense. I mean How many times do we read." I’m a new Player. And I feel Nerfed. I prefer the OLD SYSTEM."

I mean… huh?

How does a NEW player know enough of the Old system to have a frame of reference? What level were they before the roll out? Too Low, and they have NO frame of reference to claim " I feel nerfed." Too high…. and they are not a new player.