The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
2) To balance/normalize travel speed between classes. It´s unfair a warrior can easily stack 1 minute of speed boost while other classes can’t.
Yes, its totally unfair that the classes aren’t all alike and can’t do everything equally. It’s just horrible. Horrible.
Realistically warriors and guardians should run the slowest since they are wearing heavy armor. The cloth-wearing scholar classes should move the fastest.
Yes because realistically some frail mage would run faster than warriors that trained their bodies for their entire lives…
Also, Guardians do in fact run the slowest or at least is tied for it.
“Yes because realistically some frail mage…..” It’s weird seeing the word " realistically" in the same sentence as the word " mage".
just sayin.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I’m confused.
Champs are buffed to drop boxes/bags
Champs drop rare skins. Cool looking BTW!
Three major trains are established.
One is nerfed (understandable) due to players letting events fail
Two remain for awhile
Then champ drops are nerfed (especially those coins)
FG chain is partially nerfed (Trio)
QD nerfed too the ground (possibly to the center of the earth one might say)I’m not much affected. I participated a bit in the chains, but I would get bored too quick and got sick of the drama (especially in QD – /clap clap btw). So I can rightfully say I am not whining about these changes.
But What the Heck!. I’m confused, if you buff champ loot and then discourage trains. You encourage zergs/trains, but nerf the one most accessible. Was the intention all along to kill the occasional champ for loot and that ultra rare but ultra cool skin?? Should I participate in FG, Orr, EotM chains or are there nerfs incoming there too? Ban-hammers coming??
So what ANET is your vision about champs and farming them? What is your opinion of zerging and trains? Why encourage them through game design and then nerf?
I’m so confused??? 0_o
Answer is NO to farming. What don’t you understand about that? They said from beta they don’t believe in farming. They have it so you only get one champ bag a day from them, not every 20 minutes, that was an exploit.
i guess i’ll have to get powerful venom sacs and elaborate totems to appear out of sheer force of will then. i mean i get it, legendary weapons should be hard to obtain, but when you eliminate the easiest and least headache inducing method to obtaining them, what’s left? if they won’t allow champ farming, do they think that people won’t go farm random mobs that have better chances of dropping x T6 materials? by that logic, when will that be eliminated too?
Anet doesn’t Like people farming mobs. Some say that it breaks immersion. I call kitten. How many times In our history did hunters go out to where they knew game would be, shoot a few, to get pelts, then sold the pelts?
Is that sort of gathering not the same as what some player is doing when he finds a bunch o f trogs that drop the Bones and Blood he needs? or Just wants to sell?
I used to be a “fangirl”. But lately, almost all the news is about " This awesome skin…on the gem store…. this new outfit…. on the gem store…"
It is beginning to feel like a cash grab. Which is sad. When you eliminate any way to farm gold… other than what it takes to hit level 80…" you can get enough for the armor you need to hit level 80"…that begins to feel entirely too much Like.." Luxuries? you don’t need them, you can earn just enough to pay your rent and bills."
Stevie Wonder sang a song about it.
Living just enough for the city.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
See, that’s an assumption you make. Nothing says that people that ran the train will now spread out to other areas. They might simply leave the game.
Boy if the QD champ train was the last thread people hung on to and had no other reason to play GW2, I feel bad for them. Not because their train is gone, but because such a crappy activity is all they seem to enjoy.
Maybe it’s all they know how to do?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
This game started out with High Aspirations. And from Open beta when I joined til release and several Months after was an awesome experience. The Community at least in Carnished Toast was pretty nice and friendly, the RP crowd was helpful to new players, they even helped people that never Rileplayed, to get into it. Veterans were very helpful to newbs with information…… This was Gw2 as I left it.
I went to play another game for a while…i came back about a year later to a new phenomenon. The “Champion Train.” Now, I know that people group together to tackle hard content. Even so so content is easier with a Bunch of people in it. But The things that got me were…people had the Champions timed. They had a circuit, and they repeated it over and over and over….
I saw the hammer coming on this day one. I started telling people don’t get used to it. Then something happened…..
Me and a couple of friends were taking down the Champion Troll… and I see My name on map chat…
" so and so… and a few of her " Intellectually deprived and born with less ability to think" friends. ( The real word would be edited but it rhymes with Hard and starts with re- )… Are taking down The troll out of turn, what a Bunch of a******s… "
I Knew that this is too toxic for newplayers coming in the game, the entitled attitude… of " we own all the Champions tackle them with us or be Cyberbullied." was too much.
Group for tough content…sure. But be nice to players around you… as someone else said…The Champion Riders were warned all over the place, but they would not listen, so the beat stick came down and now they cry?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What exactly is the problem. In wow you had mounts. Here you have waypoints. What exactly do you need mounts for. To reduce a traveltime from 1 minute to 50 seconds?
Its my belief that the people that keep recreating all these ‘GIVE ME MOUNTS NOW’ threads are exactly that, players from other games like WoW that had mounts. They had them elsewhere and now they want them to exist in GW2.
GW2 apparently isn’t supposed to be its own game, but another cookie cutter copy of another game’s template. Example: “Its just not the same without mounts.”
“It’s Just not the same ( as World of Warcraft) without mounts.”
I agree, but that’s Like saying Vanilla is Not the same as say… tutti fruity.
There are two different games, Some people either like one or the other. Some Like me , Like Both. And choose what flavor they wish. The last thing I would want is for all the vanilla in the word to tase like tutti fruity…or vice versa. It would rob a lot of people of a flavor they love, and replace it with one they don’t. And for people Like me that like Both…sometimes I want one….or the other…Not one tasting LIKE the other.
In World of Warcraft, which I went back to last week, I want mounts. And battle pets, etc. In gw2, I have waypoints, and do not need, and oddly, do not wanmt a speed boost mount of any form.
Soomeone said " this is not about speed boost mounts, this is about speed boost without the mount." I agree. Even discussing mounts in THIS thread is off-topic. But I blame the OP. he put Mounts On the title, and some people respond to " mounts" Like a Bull to a flurrying cape.( Fact: Red is just tradition,… Bulls are color blind.).
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
inb4 someone will say that Black Lion Chest Keys can be acquired only via Gem Store.
Except it’s not true, although you kinda have a point about the Lopsided nature of BLT Chests to keys. Chests dropped from playing game…. 280….. Keys acquired without gem store purchases…. 30.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Personally, I want giant riding sloths.
Massive, noble steeds, traversing the landscapes at a leisurely walk, with the gemstore selling the rare ones that have the “walk slower” trait.
Are we talking the snail drag Kind of Motion?? or Big, Lumbering , earth shaking steps?
I would go with the Big Lumbering earth shaking steps that scare the rabbits and birds for a hundred yards myself.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
There are waypoints like litterally one, maybe two minutes apart in every zone.
What the general F are people whining about? The only area that “needs” mounts is the WvW, and that would mess things up quite a bit since the maps are too small for that amount of a speed boost.People seriously need to rethink the “mount issue”.
Waypoints suck. And they cost money. I like money. I don’t want to spend it on traveling. And I want my chocobo.
If you don’t Like using Waypoints because it costs money, you can walk. Plenty of people do… I don’t take a WP unless I am meeting someone somewhere, and then, only because I din’t want to keep them waiting. If I am just playing with my partner… we walk…everywhere.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
New ranger pet: Chocobo. You can ride it and the F2 summons 5 more chocobos (4 for your allies and one for your pet). While you’re riding, this music plays: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlyV0IPjwq0
You win all my internets
I must admit; I’m half joking, half hoping…
That would so rock, the Music brings back memories :-)
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
2) To balance/normalize travel speed between classes. It´s unfair a warrior can easily stack 1 minute of speed boost while other classes can’t.
Yes, its totally unfair that the classes aren’t all alike and can’t do everything equally. It’s just horrible. Horrible.
Realistically warriors and guardians should run the slowest since they are wearing heavy armor. The cloth-wearing scholar classes should move the fastest.
Realistically, Warriors and Guardians should run the fastest because they’re honed for athleticism and endurance and heavy armor actually isn’t very encumbering. The cloth-wearing scholar classes should move the slowest because they don’t have the conditioning and athleticism – Unless his name is Rincewind.
… actually, Rangers should move fastest, thanks to lighter armor, better trailblazing, and equal emphasis on endurance and athleticism to warriors.
I Guess you don’t realize that in medieval days Knights needed help to get INTO their armor…. and then needed something like a crane, to Mount their horses…. and you say they are not encumbered?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I went back to " that game which shall Not be named. " No Gold spam, No Champ train, No champ train spam, and… No WoW trolls… I think they all came here, so I went over there… and so far….peace… Am still playing gw2…and Hoping it improves…. but " the best"??? Not by a Long shot.. unfortunately, the 800 Lb gorilla is now better but not because it improved….but because since megaserver…. gw2 has gotten worse.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Nice examples of how mounts can be implemented and what they can add.
Cosmetics only, as far as I am concerned. If you understand compromise then the way it works is… you start with 99 % speed boost, I start with zero. And we meet at " quickness" speed. The devs do not want any players being able to run faster than quickness speed, unless it can be traited faster, or gain additional benefit from runes and sigils, I do not Know of any speed faster than quickness. I may be wrong. If they did, we would see it by now. So this is the most I am pretty certain any anti-mount player would be willing to see as a speed boost exactly because it is a permanent one. Chances are…most might not budge and go above 25 %, since it is a perma-boost.
As I said. I am sure many anti-mount are unwilling to even think about cosmetics Only mounts, and then, ONLY if they are " hideable."
So let me see some real limitations from you, and Not this strategy of " I really want 10,000% speed boost… so let’s compromise and agree on 99 %."
Let’s be realistic. Quickness buff speed, and no higher is a fair compromise.
The 99% was not my start-point. It was my compromise. I am fine with the way mounts are implemented in many MMO’s and there 200% is not an exception.
“Chances are…most might not budge and go above 25 %, since it is a perma-speed-boost.” So that means no compromise as there is already a perma-speed-boost of 25% for many professions. perma-boost is not new to this game. You act as if it is.
And cosmetic only mounts are also already in the game. (not hidable) So they are not willing to compromise. At least I am willing to find a middle ground.
So all in all 3x current quickness as perma on mounts seems to be a nice middle-ground to me.
You misunderstand, the main compromise is any mount at all.
After that since the opening position is cosmetics only mounts,… anything higher than 0 % is a concession.
Lastly 200 % speed boost in other games has no relevance whatsoever to this game.
I do not care that a Billion other games have 500 % speed boost. the question is THIS Game.
So your opening is still 99 %. and MY opening is 0 %. The amount you will be LUCKY to have is… 33 %. Since you will be Lucky to get anything that is Not just a cosmetics mount.
As I said, sine My opening position is " Pure cosmetics mount" 33 % quickness buff speed is being generous.
The idea that other games have faster mounts is irrelevant to this one. If you need a speed boost mount I am sure there are plenty of other games that have it.
Like Archage.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
Nice examples of how mounts can be implemented and what they can add.
Cosmetics only, as far as I am concerned. If you understand compromise then the way it works is… you start with 99 % speed boost, I start with zero. And we meet at " quickness" speed. The devs do not want any players being able to run faster than quickness speed, unless it can be traited faster, or gain additional benefit from runes and sigils, I do not Know of any speed faster than quickness. I may be wrong. If they did, we would see it by now. So this is the most I am pretty certain any anti-mount player would be willing to see as a speed boost exactly because it is a permanent one. Chances are…most might not budge and go above 25 %, since it is a perma-boost.
As I said. I am sure many anti-mount are unwilling to even think about cosmetics Only mounts, and then, ONLY if they are " hideable."
So let me see some real limitations from you, and Not this strategy of " I really want 10,000% speed boost… so let’s compromise and agree on 99 %."
Let’s be realistic. Quickness buff speed, and no higher is a fair compromise.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
The RP community then hasn’t read or understood the lore of the GW universe then. (I find what I said a silly statement – just like I find the all encompassing statement that ALL the RP community – I didn’t know you spoke for all of them). It is all there. In the GW book, Edge of Destiny, there was mention of a portable gate technology. This may have developed into the waypoints we know now. It was in the pre-novels leading up to GW2’s release. Add that to your RP lore.
The thing is… if the RP community says something is not Lore…then since they are the RP community .. No matter what Anet says, the RP community has to be right. Who does Anet think they are anyway?
Someone from Anet says the waypoints are Lore, what the heck do they know anyway? The RP community has spoken through the lips of One of our forum posters, that person speaks for ALL, and the facts are according to the Poster…. the RP community says waypoints are not Lore.. regardless of what Anet says.
No – A.Net says what is or is not lore. Did YOU and the RP community sit in with A.Net while they were designing the game? Probably not – so saying that RP players write the background lore is silly and disingenuous.
The designers design the lore background (storyline, etc.) as to how and what the game has. A.Net had the three GW novels written and that is where the lore comes from.
Now, I respect the RP gamers. They have added to the atmosphere of the game.
I was being sarcastic. As can be determined by the Over – the – top language,… relax dude, I’m on your side :P
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
So the conclusion is.. Yes to mounts if implemented correctly?
Yes.
Correctly meaning gimmick mounts like the broom and location-limited like the desert wurm from GW1 only. If I have to see a guild of people riding charr chuggers out in Queensdale, I would consider that ‘incorrect implementation’.
Well correctly means something else to me. But that was the ‘joke’ of my comment.
So then now we can debate what is the correct way to do it.
Let me copy paste my list from before:
Take the general idea of mounts and then to satisfy those who not like mounts to much we have the following limitations / additions:
No mounts in city’s,
No combat mounts in PvE, (so you can also not use the speed to your advantage during fights)
A max speed of x . I think max 3 times that what you can get with normal boost (that is 33 %? So then max 99 would be a good compromise. Of course if the max speed without mounts increase that of mounts increases as well.
No flying mounts. (But yes for low hovering mounts including really hovering (so not that you bumb in to a very low object because you see yourself hover above it but are in fact on the ground)). Think of some of the tonics that make you ‘fly’ but without the bumping into object you hover above.
I don’t care for a ’don’t show mounts options". Think it would be strange but if people want that I don’t care (might however not work if they implement hovering in a good way as I describe above).
The option of having Speed shoes as alternative for a mount. It would then work exactly the same as mounts do but without really seeing the mount but giving you a speedy gonzales like animation. That would then be the easiest to get the most ‘mounts’.
For a more detailed description of the implementation of this see:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Mounts/page/20#post4005814And you go back to your " Limitations that are really not Limitations but expansions to what any anti-mount person would ever consider" so…No.
None of this is Ok with me, especially the 99 % is not compromising, you really need to look up compromise, it seems you have no idea what the word means.
Think.. perma-boost = to what a player can get with quickness and No faster. That is good enough since it is permanent, but for travel only.
No Combat abilities. Slowed down on agro. Auto-dismount on attack + daze for 2 seconds. Sustain damage on auto-dismount.
I am very much aware what limitations and compromises are. Really it’s you who does explain the definition incorrectly.
I am fine with a 200% speed-boost. You don’t want to higher the current speed-boost.
Then I say.. ok lets limited to 3 times the current speed-boost. That would (at this moment) be 99%. So the limit is those 3 times current speed-boost and the compromise is 99% in stead of 200%.
You say.. It’s fine now it should stat that way.. (You do add the perma-boost but no compromise for the speed itself.) Well that is a limitation but no compromise.
I already said no combat mounts. That means no combat skills. I did give as example maybe a skill that could only hurt critters (just for fun) and a skill to wiggle your tail but when I say no combat mounts it means no combat skills. I am personally fine with combat mounts but as a compromise I am willing to limit mounts to non-combat.. in PvE that is. I could imagine special WvW or PvP maps with mounted combat.
I did say auto slow-down when being attacked and getting kicked of when being hit 2 or 3 times. So thats a little different from yours but personally I would be fine by not slowing down as I already dislike that when walking. Anyway as a compromise I am fine with that if that would make anti-mount people more happy. Slow down on aggro would be extremely frustrating to play so now that I would not agree on.
To be Honest all I have mentioned are compromises since My starting position is, all Mounts should be cosmetics only. If that.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
The RP community then hasn’t read or understood the lore of the GW universe then. (I find what I said a silly statement – just like I find the all encompassing statement that ALL the RP community – I didn’t know you spoke for all of them). It is all there. In the GW book, Edge of Destiny, there was mention of a portable gate technology. This may have developed into the waypoints we know now. It was in the pre-novels leading up to GW2’s release. Add that to your RP lore.
The thing is… if the RP community says something is not Lore…then since they are the RP community .. No matter what Anet says, the RP community has to be right. Who does Anet think they are anyway?
Someone from Anet says the waypoints are Lore, what the heck do they know anyway? The RP community has spoken through the lips of One of our forum posters, that person speaks for ALL, and the facts are according to the Poster…. the RP community says waypoints are not Lore.. regardless of what Anet says.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
So the conclusion is.. Yes to mounts if implemented correctly?
Yes.
Correctly meaning gimmick mounts like the broom and location-limited like the desert wurm from GW1 only. If I have to see a guild of people riding charr chuggers out in Queensdale, I would consider that ‘incorrect implementation’.
Well correctly means something else to me. But that was the ‘joke’ of my comment.
So then now we can debate what is the correct way to do it.
Let me copy paste my list from before:
Take the general idea of mounts and then to satisfy those who not like mounts to much we have the following limitations / additions:
No mounts in city’s,
No combat mounts in PvE, (so you can also not use the speed to your advantage during fights)
A max speed of x . I think max 3 times that what you can get with normal boost (that is 33 %? So then max 99 would be a good compromise. Of course if the max speed without mounts increase that of mounts increases as well.
No flying mounts. (But yes for low hovering mounts including really hovering (so not that you bumb in to a very low object because you see yourself hover above it but are in fact on the ground)). Think of some of the tonics that make you ‘fly’ but without the bumping into object you hover above.
I don’t care for a ’don’t show mounts options". Think it would be strange but if people want that I don’t care (might however not work if they implement hovering in a good way as I describe above).
The option of having Speed shoes as alternative for a mount. It would then work exactly the same as mounts do but without really seeing the mount but giving you a speedy gonzales like animation. That would then be the easiest to get the most ‘mounts’.
For a more detailed description of the implementation of this see:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Mounts/page/20#post4005814
And you go back to your " Limitations that are really not Limitations but expansions to what any anti-mount person would ever consider" so…No.
None of this is Ok with me, especially the 99 % is not compromising, you really need to look up compromise, it seems you have no idea what the word means.
Think.. perma-boost = to what a player can get with quickness and No faster. That is good enough since it is permanent, but for travel only.
No Combat abilities. Slowed down on agro. Auto-dismount on attack + daze for 2 seconds. Sustain damage on auto-dismount.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
That applies to both sides because “nobody knows anything at all”.
Yeah, I stated as much in several other posts. To you if I’m not mistaken, pay attention.
But players can make educated guesses if, and only if, they look at how their basic implementation (generic mmorpg mounts) will affect everything.
No, they can’t, because that would imply that GW2 inherently follows generic RPG traditions, which there are hardly any cases to show that it has, or will. No trinity, no loot or XP competition, no PvE dependent PvP, no factions, only a semblance of a traditional quest system, a new game mode in WvW. The list of ‘generic RPG traditions’ they have broken is far longer than the list of those which they’ve kept. And as such there is no basis for your argument of predictability, you can keep a tradition in only one way, but break it an infinite number of ways.
And as I explained in an earlier comment, mounts only serve a few purposes.
Well firstly, you’re wrong. Sorry you are so closed minded, but I can assure professional game designers such as those who made GW2 are not. I’m only a game design student, and I can think of half a dozen different ways off the top of my head in which you could break every ‘purpose’ you listed and still have a mount system; each with their own advantages and drawbacks.
Additionally, as I said previously, ‘serving a purpose’ is a fools errand when it comes to game design. Games themselves have no purpose, they are made to occupy your time that you are not required to spend on anything purposeful. If you design a game as nothing but a string of mechanics which address the players needs throughout the game, you have failed to make a game anyone will want to play.
Things like very vocal minorities …
And I’m stopping you right there because you have absolutely zero proof that players who wish for mounts outnumber those who do not. These are forums, not a polling station, not an elected body which represents the GW2 community. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that this single thread is an accurate representation of the opinions of the GW2 community at large.
But since you are dealing with a mechanic that is as sensitive as combat, implementing them would require way more time to plan and design it than all of the pro-mounts believe. You can’t simply add them…
Unless of course, you add them in a way that doesn’t effect the original mechanic.
So you really can’t have your cake and eat it too. That’s really what I am trying to say here.
Stupidest saying in all of history. You can always have your cake and eat it to, because that is the purpose of cake, if you do not eat it, you do not have cake at all. You have a knickknack that goes rotten. Mistakes can be made, but no one tries to make cake that cannot be eaten, and similarly no one tries to make games that cannot be enjoyed.
You cannot say how or whether it would affect combat at all. Mounts could be strictly non combat with a speed boost, in combat with no speed boost, zone specific, timed, gated behind any number of circumstances, or subject to any existing or completely new mechanics. They could go so far as overlaying the existing combat system with a new mounted combat system, similar to underwater combat. Or they could make it as simple as treating mounts as a new weapon set, no more complicated than adding any new weapon, which players have asked for plenty.
Fabricate all the excuses you like, until you manage to pull developers notes out of somewhere, you cannot say what problems and mount system would have, and therefore whether or not it is, logically, a good or bad idea to implement. If you don’t like the idea because of previous experience, fine. But that is not a logical evidence driven argument any more than one from a player wants mounts simply because their experience leads them to believe they would be fun.
You are right about one thing, and only one by the way. The expression is not " you can’t have your cake and eat it too."
it’s:
" You can’t Eat your cake, and have it too."
Once you’ve eaten it, you no longer have it.
And The Poster you responded to is correct. You CAN make educated guesses based on constants in MMO’s. And while Gw2 is revolutionary in some things, as a student of game design * cough* bullkitten * cough…* you would Know that you can fiddle with the Polish…but core concepts of MMO design are core concepts of game desigm.
Fiddle with the core at your peril.
But… you as a " student of game design * cough*….. know this.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Oh look, yet more assumption, in fact pretty much two solid pages of it.
Nobody knows anything at all about how mounts will be implemented, therefore:
1. You do not know whether players will be able to use them to drag aggro and grief. In fact if the system worked with mounts as it works on foot I can guarantee you this wouldn’t be any more possible with mounts than it is without.
2. You have no idea what mounts will look like, where they will be permitted, their size, shape, color, culling level, anything at all. And therefore do not know that mounts will be an ‘eyesore’, and no, having been an eyesore in other games says absolutely nothing about this one.
3. You do not know whether mounted speed would imbalance combat, PvP, or WvW.
4. If mounts are available in combat, you have no idea how that would even work, what gameplay it would add or what it would damage.
5. You’ve no idea how they would affect the economy as you have no idea how they would be obtained.
6. You’ve no idea at all about how much development time they would take. Quit making up bullcrap on this, none of you are game developers, quit pretending to be.7. Most of all, you have no idea how many players want or do not want mounts. One group of forumites, obviously and heavily influenced by herd poisoning, says nothing at all about the opinions of the playerbase at large on the subject.
This post destroys all anti-mount arguments.
No it doesn’t. Fact is, I am pretty certain that short of a Lot of balancing… which the devs will not do for a mear fluff item Like Mounts…. Speed Boost Mounts are not gonna happen this year.
may not happen next year. Of course this is where everyone will say " are you One of the dev team?"
the reasons why speed boost mounts will never be added to this game have already been enumerated. Mostly because the best that MOST…Not all..but MOST “Pro-mount” proponents will give as reasons for it are " I want it, and it’s cool."
and I sincerely doubt that Anet will rebalance all it’s classes and WP system, because some people think." it will be cool."
This destroys all Pro-mount arguments.
Ok, it really doesn’t… but then again, neither did the post before destroy all anti-mount arguments.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I think you did not get me.
I totally understand you completely dislike it if that happens to you. I know the feeling of being upset when you die because of something like that.
I get furious at this game often when I die because mobs that I already killed multiple times keep respawning before I killed the complete group. Thats similar in that it’s out of your control and should not happen.
So I get that feeling, and I get it why you dislike it if people can do it.
The only part I do not get is that this can already happen now without mounts and then why it would be more upsetting with mounts. It’s just upsetting with or without mounts but why is it more upsetting to you with mounts? That part I really don’t get. Has nothing to do with not wanting to know I really don’t get that.
It is more upsetting with mounts because the constant speed buff would allow griefers to just run up..agro a few Mobs.. then run with them to you… then outrun them after they agroed on you.
Maybe they MIGHT be able to do this with the skills they have now…but… maybe the 10 second quickness is Not enough… maybe they need to use a few dodges, and maybe they don’t get vigor, or stamina back, before they themselves gert trounced by their train.
A constant speed boost mount, makes it easier to train, …. makes it easier to grief others. As long as you have a constant speed buff that allows you to outrun mobs that then get agroed on other players just minding their own Businss…you need to understand this griefing is … One of the consequences of a speed boost mount.
And simply saying " But you shouldn’t care, because…..if you do that is silly of you to care, and it’s Nothing to do with me or My desire for speed boost mounts…. sucks to be you."
Ummm…That is Not Likely to win you any converts. Fact is, while I was of half a Mind to go with the " speed boost mounts" idea before. I now see what i was saying was correct.
“Slippery Slope” when it comes to speed boost mounts is NOT a fallacy here.
Suddenly people want combat mounts as well… and No slow down ehen agrowed… and if they agro something that they outrun and it attacks someone fighting something else.." sucks to be them..and they should not care that i was Mounted, and if they do, I Just don’t understand why they care, because ..I don’t.’??
hmmm…. Not sure that is the type of attitude this game needs.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Well folks, prepare to be amazed.
I think I found the solution to the Mount Debate. After 20 pages of back and forth with the constant reitteration of the same old talking points from so many other threads, you may rest your weary head, I have solved the problem.
We allow Mounts in the game but only the Invisible Horses from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
- Now anybody who wants a mount can have one.
- There is no swiftness balancing issue as the mounts can not travel any faster then the rider.
- Those who don’t want mounts in the game are happy as they can not see them anyway.
- There is no problem with the Pay to Play crowd because there would be no cost for this new mount in gems or gold.
- ANet would have to add 2 new emotes into the game though /mount & /dismount, hopefully this is not too much Dev time
So there you have it problem solved for everyone in one fell swoop of an unladen swallow.
Now, where did I put those coconut halves?
+20 for originality. Sign me up. I can get behind this. And if the devs wanna toss in a broom with a Horse head On it, that a person can go " giddy-up" I’m good with that too.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
About the tagging mounts and running away getting other people to get aggro.
I do understand what you are talking about but I don’t see what mounts specifically have to do with that? It’s already the case / possible without mounts. It would still be possible with mounts. Maybe that it would be a little more easy but overall I am already able to outrun 90% of the mobs, with mounts that might become 95%. So not a big difference imho.
There is a difference between outrunning a mob using a 10 second quickness, and using a constant speed buff. Especially since the way most anti-mount players would accept any mount at all is if it is for out-of-combat travel.
So if you get near a mob while travelling, you need to be slowed down… so that you deal with it. This is part of limits.
And the difference between, outrunning 90 % of Mobs using a combat speed buff…and 95 % of mobs using an out-of-combat travel mount is OP.
That 5 % that is being dumped on someone’s lap is 5 % too many for many people that do not even want to see a mount in the game to begin with.
There is such a thing as “Leaving well enough alone.” And knowing when asking too much may get ya nothing at all. Remember these mounts are not combat mounts… these are travel mounts… the compromise between the Combat mounts you want, and the cosmetic only mounts that many players on my side do not even want.
Cue in Obligatory song:
I mean it does not make a huge difference for the player that gets the mob attacking him because somebody else pulled him, if the other guy did that on a mount or he did it by foot.
He still gets attacked by it and the number of times that happen should not increase a lot because we can already outrun 90% of the mobs.
I disagree. As a player that has been in games where I had a couple of Mobs under control, to simply have someone ride up…. being chased by a bunch of Mobs, that subsequently peel off the mount rider, then zero in on me, It makes a huge difference. You can choose to believe what you wish. But speaking as someone that has had this happened to me…. death through my own incompetence I can handle, and i can just go ’ hey, you win some, you lose some." But when someone rides up to you…. and then rides away, and the Mobs that were chasing him, turn to beat me down…. It does make a difference.
I can understand why you do not wish to think so, the reason is self-serving. If you simply cover your ears with your fingers and go " lalalalalalala" then you do not have to hear what happens.
Here is why this should concern you. This is a legitimate gripe that players have with speed-boost mounts. And while I can understand you rather discount the complaint and not deal with it, if you seriously expect the devs to take you seriously, you need to take the complaint seriously. Because they are taking it seriously.
You will not come across your best with your callous attitude.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
About the tagging mounts and running away getting other people to get aggro.
I do understand what you are talking about but I don’t see what mounts specifically have to do with that? It’s already the case / possible without mounts. It would still be possible with mounts. Maybe that it would be a little more easy but overall I am already able to outrun 90% of the mobs, with mounts that might become 95%. So not a big difference imho.
There is a difference between outrunning a mob using a 10 second quickness, and using a constant speed buff. Especially since the way most anti-mount players would accept any mount at all is if it is for out-of-combat travel.
So if you get near a mob while travelling, you need to be slowed down… so that you deal with it. This is part of limits.
And the difference between, outrunning 90 % of Mobs using a combat speed buff…and 95 % of mobs using an out-of-combat travel mount is OP.
That 5 % that is being dumped on someone’s lap is 5 % too many for many people that do not even want to see a mount in the game to begin with.
There is such a thing as “Leaving well enough alone.” And knowing when asking too much may get ya nothing at all. Remember these mounts are not combat mounts… these are travel mounts… the compromise between the Combat mounts you want, and the cosmetic only mounts that many players on my side do not even want.
Cue in Obligatory song:
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
… snip…
If you want to talk about implementations and how those limitations would be implemented thats fine and I am willing to talk about that.
For example, you say my limitation of ‘non-combat mounts’ is not a limitation however much of you explanation matches with that. About getting kicked of when you get in combat but also how you have no skills.. or at least no combat skills.
Yeah I also don’t mind that you can be kicked of a mount and then be dazed for 1 or 2 seconds. In fact thats how it works in most MMO’s. I would not want the mount to instantly stop or kick you after after getting one hit because that would be extremely frustrating. I already find the ‘slow down when in combat’ extremely annoying in the current game and when you get immobilizes just while walking pass one it’s even worse. So if you would have that even more with mounts it would be likely even more frustrating. But yeah you can get stopped after 2 or 3 hits (and slow down after the first hit) and then you can get kicked of after another 2 hits if you don’t dismount manually. I would leave the dodge option in to at least avoid getting that first hit. (That is how I now reduce that irritation of getting slowed down when passing some mob because he hits me). How much you can that dodge is purely depended on your traits and stuff, not on your weapons or skills as those are invalid on non-combat mounts.
I would not have a mount cost one of the skill slots. You are self one of the people who talks about balancing problems. Well that would likely introduce balancing problems.
About the speed shoes. I don’t mind if they are behind a quest. Personally I would love that even more. I figured you would prefer it being easy accessible from an NPC so you would not be forced to do much for it if you did not really want that. But put it behind a quest, fine by me.. No even better by me as I prefer having such things (mounts, mini’s skins and so on) behind specific content so you can specifically work towards what. Have said much about that in another thread.
About the hovering, there are already many hovering tonics in the game including one hovering mount (the broom) only difference would be you would no bumb into something that is below you.. simply because that is silly. So Anet obvious has nothing against hovering.
It’s something completely different as flying.
It could however then be a problem for the ’don’t show mounts’ option as your coordinate wound indeed show you hover. So that option would then have to go I think.
I think your Point of Hovering is spot on, and while I can see that dodging while Mounted would be important… we’d need a better animation than a foreward roll.
> . <
One thing that I find annoying about speed boost mounts is, the tendency that some players use it when agroed to run fropm mobs they themselves irritated, and then run them to other people that are fighting other mobs.
I can understand feeling frustrated by being slowed down when you enter combat, or get hit by another mob. My concern is, to what extent a mounted player will be able to do this… run away from Mobs they irritated, and then train them to another player, that is simply minding their business…. Also, some players will do this out of pure mischief. So I feel, if you agro a mob, you should be the one to handle it, …Not have the option of outrunning it with speed boost that might then leave it near another player to handle that may already have his hands full.
Player A is running along, gets 2 Centaur Archers On his rear end… runs away trying to escape, and accidentally runs Into a warrior… zips into Player B already fighting a warrior and trampler…. Player A runs into him…past him…outraces his 2…. and drops them on Player B’s lap.
Not exactly cricket is it?
Implimentations. For me… using up one of the 7-9 slots IS balancing. Just as the engineer needs to equip Grenades. Or the Med Kit. It’s the price you pay for constant speed boost.
As to wanting it behind quest content. This is the type of stuff I lived for when I Played EverQuest. Doing the quest for speed shoes. Or having to fight tough Mobs to pick up scattered fragments of spell scrolls etc.
I really dislike that tendency other games have of locking content in a gem store. Frivolity, weapon and armor skins.. Box o’ Fun… etc.. costumes and town clothes..ya..that is fine…
I can understand that Anet doesn’t want to put something in game that some casuals may point to and say " hey how come I cannot have that?? I don’t have 3 or 4 Hours to do this quest!"
I feel that games are better when content is locked behind other content, and Have to be unlocked by playing the game…and not in a gem store, Unlockable with a Credit Card…:-) Nice to see we agree there :-)
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
The problem with Guild Wars 2 trying to add expansions, I think, is that the base game is ‘too strong’. And, they can’t just backload the game and hide new content and higher levelcap behind a paygate.
The classes are too diverse and well-balanced to add new classes to the game. I doubt they’ll add new races or weapon types either, for similar reasons. Then again, a new set of weapons balanced against the current set might actually be cool (though it might require renaming the current weapons in case there’s a risk of redundancy).
The original GW managed to launch several expansions without having paygate problems by having each expansion be able to stand alone or play with each other fairly, by introducing a complete suite of classes capable of mixing and hybriding with the normal ones, a completely new storyline independent of any previous ones, and a new set of maps.
I don’t see Guild Wars 2 being able to do any of this.
Dervishes….Scythes….
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
How many p2p games were succesfull ? And dont name that “One”…All other p2p’s have failed miserably and will continue to do so.
EQ1..EQ2… still around.. Not sure that " going f2p" qualifies as " Failing abysmally" that is simply the stigma applied by someone that feels for a game to be " a great game" it has to have a subscription Model.
The One… is a freak of time and place… being at the right place, at the right time, to greet a Bunch of casual players with a simple MMO. That game cannot be used as any gauge. it would be nice if games were content with " pre-That game" membership numbers, and put out a quality game, instead of chasing the gold ring that “That game” has dangled over publisher’s heads. As long as the publishers and the " investors" influence game design we will get WoW clone after WoW clone.
Only when game designers can get the publishers to understand " 5 Million to 10 million players is not realistic. " Only then will we get the diversity and the quality of gaming we had before That Game….simplified the genre.
I sincerely doubt that as Long as Investors are looking at “That Game” as some model, while they get a gleam of gold In their eye… we will ever get a game worth a subscription. Which is Ironic.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Speed boost mounts won’t work. Guardians, for instance, have no perma speed buff other than speed/traveler runes. To give them a perma speed mount would then shift game play ‘balance.’ I really don’t want Anet to waste time rebalancing the game for mounts with speed.
Also, I don’t want mounts in game.
How would that shift any balance when mounts are non-combat mounts?
Since I would assume that it will be PvE content only, it will make all guardian weapon set viable so that they don’t have to use only a specific weapon set to travel around.
I am always stuck on the GS/Staff because it is the only way to get around fast.
That’s how. According to devs (though i can’t locate those posts at the moment. I think they were somewhere on the WvW subforum), the fact that some weapons offer better mobility than others was an important point in balancing them. The same for things like traveller runes, or the mobility +25% signets of some classes. Or the fact that some classes posess far better mobility than others (that one is big, since it affects whole class balance). All those things would have to be completely rebalanced. And you know how long it takes – we could reasonably expect the process to last years.
I don’t care about WvW.
Talk about PvE instead.
Simple, keep all the speed boost mounts out of WvW, or PvP, only for PvE.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Fourth, more processing power required, especially if in a zerg I’d imagine which could affect some players.
The rest of the issues I have no opinion about except for an idea I will add after I express My opinion about the above.
I am concerned that extra processing needs for mounts may make the game unplayable to many players without high-end machines. it seems to me to be too high a cost for what would amount to " fluff".
That being said this is a way I could see it being worthwhile.
Put it in an expansion to the game. I have read that gw2 is NOT taking expansions off the table.
The way it works is, as speed boost mounts may be seen as “pay 2 win” if on the gem store, or just an “Npc purchase” purely for gold….
Make it a Long quest chain:
1. you need to go to a higher level zone ..someplace level 40 to 50 and find a specific NPC that makes constructs that would be mountable. There would be 5 different NPC’s One for each race. No one has to get the mount for their specific race…but each constructed mount is created so it " feels" Like it comes from the race in question… Steam-punk for charr… Gizmo-ey for asura… Bio-engineered for Sylvari…etc….
2. You need to persuade the NPC to even consider it, by doing a few quests…similar to " faction" gain In other games.
3. Once convinced… he needs components… and drops off specific mobs… this sends you to buy components off NPC’s, and Hunt down specific NON world boss Mobs…
I can see maybe champions for this… but Nothing below veteran for main parts.. maybe some parts off common mobs… ( think EQ Epic… Just Not as hard. Maybe WoW flying Mount. But Not purchased off an NPC)
4. All required parts are “Soul Bound on acquire”.
5. Repeated trips to and fro… from the NPC.
6. The ultimate result is a speed boost mount that gives slightly higher speed than a swiftness skill, and allows auto-dismount on being attacked. NOT for WvW. Or dungeons. Also you get a title and achievements. " Formula X Experimental pilot."
Of course this is all just an idea .. some things can and should be adjusted…but all in all.. if it appears On the gem store… except as something purely cosmetic… it would be pay2win for me.
Just a thought.
PS you can collect all 5.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
Not sure how ‘collecting them’ would be a balance?
Anyway. What I am willing to accept.
No mounts in city’s,
No combat mounts in PvE, (so you can also not use the speed to your advantage during fights)
Not a limitation, since most of us do not want any mounts at all.. combat mounts of any sort are not a Limitation since it is MORE than what is acceptable, not less. Trust me, Combat mounts for many are a complete non-starter.
A max speed of x . I think max 3 times that what you can get with normal boost (that is 33 %? So then max 99 would be a good compromise. Of course if the max speed without mounts increase that of mounts increases as well.
Again not a limitation was thinking along the lines of what can be attained with speed boost. Not 99 . See this is part of the problem, you are not willing to accept limitations, you simply want boosts. A Limitation is not " well we can get 33 now, and I REALLY would Love 200 % speed boost so let’s compromise on 99 %" is Not a compromise at all.
No flying mounts. (But yes for low hovering mounts including really hovering (so not that you bumb in to a very low object because you see yourself hover above it but are in fact on the ground)). Think of some of the tonics that make you ‘fly’ but without the bumping into object you hover above.
Not a limitation. Hovering mounts when players do not want mounts at all? and the devs said " No flying mounts"?
I don’t care for a ’don’t show mounts options". Think it would be strange but if people want that I don’t care.
The “Don’t show” only applies to “Cosmetic non-speed boost”mounts since the difference between seeing them, and not seeing them is fine.. but seeing a person zipping at 50 % speed boost without a Mount is ridiculous.
I want to end on a positive note so let me add this here. When I asked about limitations I meant things Like… " while riding a speed boost mount, it uses up one of the 7 – 9 skill slots like the engineer weapon bundles, and totally eliminates all your 1-5 combat skills with 1. Dismount. Also, while using the mount are able to sustain damage if attacked, and vulnerable to being " Knocked off." To be described. No auto-dismount upon being injured, must manually dismount. If a player does not manually dismount they will not be able to attack, and are still suffering from Vulnerability, and may become confused. If confused will suffer an extra stack of confusion."
“Upon being Knocked off…. your Mount will auto-dismount you, and you will sustain falling off mount damage” THESE are Limitations. All the things you mentioned only appear to you as limitations since they are less than what you hope for, which is what I suspected.
The problem of having the speed-boost for people that don’t want a mount. (your main question I think) Speed shoes. It would then work exactly the same as mounts do but without really seeing the mount but giving you a speedy gonzales like animation. That would then be the easiest to get by an NPC cheapest in game ‘mount’.
This actually might work. I do Like the idea of speed shoes. But I would Not want it as a gem shop item. Or an NPC purchased item. It would also add to the game as if would be something that the a player has to do in – game. I really have an issue with " pay2win" and if it is In the gem store, or purchaseable for just gold from an NPC… it can be seen as " pay2win" Make it something that you need to quest for. I have already given a good idea of what such a quest might be like.
I think that while those of us NOT wanting mounts that are reasonable… are not that far apart from those that want mounts … that are reasonable… usually compromise means being willing to accept LESS… Not starting from a Position where you demand a LOT, then being willing to accept only a Little less, that still amounts to a LOT.
Usually that is something that just makes the other side feel as if you just want to run all over them…Kinda Like." hey i could have put you on a torture rack..but I’ll compromise, I’ll just Kick your teeth in, and leave you with a Black eye. See Compromise."
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I’m not a programmer, but wouldn’t the option to hide all mounts for some players add to the complexity of what the game has to handle?
That aspect is pretty minor – it adds one bit to the packet describing each character (0 for normal, 1 for mounted). A filter to not see people as mounted is actually as simple as a client-side mask that always turns the mounted/on-foot bit to 0 before handing the packet on to the rendering engine.
The bar to Cosmetics only mounts has been handled. The issue is. Are people that want mounts ONLY happy with a cosmetics only mount?
or
Will other “pro-mount” proponents now come out demanding higher speed boost, perma-speed boost?
While sometimes " slippery slope" is a logical fallacy….. there are times when giving an inch, leads to the other side tugging hard to grab your whole arm.
I have seen it here. There is a distinct difference bettwen a cosmetics only mount that can be " hide mounts" on log in…. and a speed boost mount.
The big question is. Will all the people that want mounts be happy with a cosmetics only mount? Or will this be the cue for the " But it must do something!" crowd to join in? Hence the " slippery slope" NON Logical fallacy?
- cues Carmina Burhana*
No they are not happy with just cosmetic mounts. Well not really at least. See the broom.
This is where I say that in this environment " Slippery slope" is not a fallacy. While people may not have started with " cosmetics only". there is a dynamic. Those that wish cosmetics only mounts will push what they want, those of us against mounts entirely will say " Ok, but only if I can hide them from My sight on log in."
THIS will then be a clarion call for those wnating speed boost…perma – speed boost…etc.. to come in and say " they gave an inch…charge!!!!"
On a side note, when I went to bed… we were amicable, and agreeable..I come back, and all hell broke loose..what the **** ???
Did hell break lose?
Anyway. Don’t think this has to do with the slippery slope. Most people always wanted ‘real’ mounts. That also means being able to collect them. So more then one. That is also why you mostly see it implemented like that in other mmo’s. There aren’t many, if any, mmo’s where mounts are purely cosmetics.
Here’s a question for you.
How would you suggest balancing Speed-boost mounts so that they are balanced across all speed skills, traits, runes and sigils? Balancing is necessary so that those of us that do not want mounts do not feel that we have to own a Mount, and simply saying " you don’t need to if you do not want to." will not satissfy those that do not want mounts In the game.
Seriously, what limitations are you willing to accept to balance the mounts you want? And just saying " Collecting them." doesn’t qualify since this is something you want added to the game.
I have heard many before you say what limits they would accept.
What limits would you accept for a speed boost mount?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
That’s (mainly) the problem. Emotion is irrational and will drive itself into a ditch unless logic steps in the way and says, “Hey, you are going to drive yourself into a ditch. Stop or you are going to get screwed.”
Likewise, most of these people who want mounts are entirely disregarding how mounts would affect other players. The players who are saying it is a bad idea list the reasons why while those for mounts are simply telling them “your argument is invalid” without stating why.
And like every mount thread, those who try to reason gradually realize that reason and logic isn’t going to work so they start appealing to emotion as well. Discussions and debates are worthless at this point because it boils down to “yes mounts”/“no mounts” comments.
But let me ask you this: if people wanted mounts, why don’t we see the broom or drill very often? Why isn’t anet making more of them, perhaps bigger ones at that?
Most people do not want “mounts” as in " cosmetic mounts." They want a speed boost with the mount. They disregard that Anet has balanced speed. therefore a Mount that has a speed boost must similarly be balanced just as elementalist air attuned staff #4 has to be balanced with mesmer focus # 4.
Most players Not all…I have seen reasonable players on the other camp…but they get drowned out by those that just want a speed boost,… refuse to acknowledge or even respect that the mere existence of a speed boost mount that is not correctly balanced will affect other players.
Any that do not, are either engaging in wishful thinking, disregarding properly formed objections because they rather talk about something else..or being completely disingenuous.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
I have come to believe that handled properly… and balanced with other speed skills, traits, runes and sigils.. ( a Lot of work )…speed boost mounts are a possibility. And even I would go along… handled properly.
I feel if all it is gonna be is a Pure gem store item, it needs to be cosmetics only, and hideable… Give me a " Hide mounts" option On Log in. I don’t wanna see them.
Speed boost mounts Unless balanced against all other speed skills, traits, runes and sigils will be overpowered.
Suddenly, unless properly balanced across all speed skills, traits, runes and sigils, it will be necessary for EVERYONE to buy a speed boost mount. Even those that hate them.
THIS is my main objection to speed boost mounts that are not properly balanced.
The problem is, a Lot of people that want a speed boost mount want one Like In other MMO’s.. Perma-speed boost at will all over the place whenever they wanna Mount.
That is too overpowered.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I’m not a programmer, but wouldn’t the option to hide all mounts for some players add to the complexity of what the game has to handle?
That aspect is pretty minor – it adds one bit to the packet describing each character (0 for normal, 1 for mounted). A filter to not see people as mounted is actually as simple as a client-side mask that always turns the mounted/on-foot bit to 0 before handing the packet on to the rendering engine.
The bar to Cosmetics only mounts has been handled. The issue is. Are people that want mounts ONLY happy with a cosmetics only mount?
or
Will other “pro-mount” proponents now come out demanding higher speed boost, perma-speed boost?
While sometimes " slippery slope" is a logical fallacy….. there are times when giving an inch, leads to the other side tugging hard to grab your whole arm.
I have seen it here. There is a distinct difference bettwen a cosmetics only mount that can be " hide mounts" on log in…. and a speed boost mount.
The big question is. Will all the people that want mounts be happy with a cosmetics only mount? Or will this be the cue for the " But it must do something!" crowd to join in? Hence the " slippery slope" NON Logical fallacy?
- cues Carmina Burhana*
No they are not happy with just cosmetic mounts. Well not really at least. See the broom.
This is where I say that in this environment " Slippery slope" is not a fallacy. While people may not have started with " cosmetics only". there is a dynamic. Those that wish cosmetics only mounts will push what they want, those of us against mounts entirely will say " Ok, but only if I can hide them from My sight on log in."
THIS will then be a clarion call for those wnating speed boost…perma – speed boost…etc.. to come in and say " they gave an inch…charge!!!!"
On a side note, when I went to bed… we were amicable, and agreeable..I come back, and all hell broke loose..what the **** ???
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
A seperate thought. The world of Tyria is One that has many different races experimenting with advanced technology…The asura and charr are obvious. But this Might be a way to flesh out those technologies.
In the real world One of the things that sped up Industry was making automobiles. A huge industry sprung up to feed it.
Might be nice to see How " steampunk" Constructed mounts differ from Asuran " experimental" Constructs might look…How the differing methods of constructing them shape up.
Have all the races have a different way to construct mounts maybe? each based on the theme of the race. So people have differing options for their constructed mounts.
Sylvari could have theirs be based on Bio-engineering… they need to have some plant grow it or something, so you need to gather different seeds from different trees and plants In different areas of Tyria or something.
See this for me…would make it worth dev time and resources, since it elevates the desire for mounts above " fluff" and makes it. An expanded part of game play. Maybe if it is Involved enough it can be faster than most ask… because since it will take effort… effort should be rewarded… I can see a speed boost coming of it.
But if it is just gonna be dropped On the gem store, then I feel it needs to either be cosmetics Only, or … player run speed.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What about the nightmare that will ensue to balance your speed boost mount against all the Speed boost skills, traits, runes and sigils? Just so you can " feel the experience of riding a Mount?"
I’ve addressed this higher up. I don’t think it will be a balance nightmare. With a careful wall of mechanics between mounts and combat, it corrects the imbalance that is already there between professions when it comes to out-of-combat speed boosts, while not affecting the balance the developers are trying to achieve between in-combat speed and other combat abilities.
Or the fact that someone else… playing on a slower, older machine has to pay the price by having a worse experience, just so you can go " yippy – kai-yay" on your Dolyak?
Interestingly enough, ArenaNet has already made this choice. For example, if I set my machine to render only default character models so that I can get a better framerate, the game still renders specialty items like achievement skins and legendaries.
Nevertheless, nobody seems to be against the idea of giving you the ability to toggle off mounts so you don’t have to see them and your computer doesn’t have to render them.
Tell you what. You have valid Points. Make the cosmetics-only mounts hideable, or Aestetically pleasing, Non-rediculous, and Lore respecting. And I am fine with it.
As to speed boost mounts, you still have not addressed the most important problem. If you have any speed boost NOT balanced with pre-existing speed boost, then EVERYONE has to buy and use them…Not just the ones that want them, since that will make Speed boost mounts overpowered.
And they will be demanded even if out of combat. Since someone joining a group for a dungeon, then has to get to the dungeon ASAP. If they say " I can’t get there faster.." " hey don’t you have a Mount??" What should they do…Lie? or tell the truth? if they tell the truth they get kicked out of the group.
So Speed Boost mounts have to 1. be Aesthetically pleasing. 2. Not look rediculous. 3. Not be Lore Breaking. That means NO live creatures as mounts, they must all be constructs. and 4. Be properly balanced across all other speed boost skills…so that they are not OP, and then everyone HAS to have them, even players that do not want them.
Here is a thought. Since they must be constructs…turn that into an independant quest all it’s own. You need someone to build it for you, an NPC in Mount Maelstrom that you need to get to, that then tells you the components you need.
..
Running speed is 33% currently. We’re proposing the maybe or maybe not future mounts be at that same 33%. So then, aside from having to hit a button every few seconds if you don’t have a mount, there’s no glaring disadvantage,
Constructs? Like bikes or something? I’m for it. Glad to see you’re slowly overcoming your phobia. We’re making progress.
See here is the thing for me. Just because other games have handled Mounts badly doesn’t mean they have to be done badly here. The big thing for me is… that the mounts be balanced with player speed skills, because there are players that do not want them in the game. if it is NOT balanced with speed skills, it becomes mandatory that people own and use them. This objection has to be addressed and Not just swept aside.
That is why they also have to be 1. Aesthetically pleasing, 2. Not rediculous, 3. Not Lore Breaking, therefore ( Not a beast).. and 4. Balanced across all speed skills…etc…
The second thing that convinced me it MIGHT be a good idea is…. the Possibilities for quests that would derive from it.
I would Not want to see it as a Pure gem store purchase. I would Like something like this to be the result of a quest of some type. Maybe a series of quests. Maybe you " know a guy who knows a guy" then you have to go to the guy? Then he says " we need to make a car-bew-ray-tor." or something as hilarious…" steam punk Charr auto and Bike constructors New and used constructs…just ask Grenville to see our latest models."
There is Potential…but a Lot of thought needs to be put into it Not just " I wanna buy 150 % speed boost horse for my charr."
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
What about the nightmare that will ensue to balance your speed boost mount against all the Speed boost skills, traits, runes and sigils? Just so you can " feel the experience of riding a Mount?"
I’ve addressed this higher up. I don’t think it will be a balance nightmare. With a careful wall of mechanics between mounts and combat, it corrects the imbalance that is already there between professions when it comes to out-of-combat speed boosts, while not affecting the balance the developers are trying to achieve between in-combat speed and other combat abilities.
Or the fact that someone else… playing on a slower, older machine has to pay the price by having a worse experience, just so you can go " yippy – kai-yay" on your Dolyak?
Interestingly enough, ArenaNet has already made this choice. For example, if I set my machine to render only default character models so that I can get a better framerate, the game still renders specialty items like achievement skins and legendaries.
Nevertheless, nobody seems to be against the idea of giving you the ability to toggle off mounts so you don’t have to see them and your computer doesn’t have to render them.
Tell you what. You have valid Points. Make the cosmetics-only mounts hideable, or Aestetically pleasing, Non-rediculous, and Lore respecting. And I am fine with it.
As to speed boost mounts, you still have not addressed the most important problem. If you have any speed boost NOT balanced with pre-existing speed boost, then EVERYONE has to buy and use them…Not just the ones that want them, since that will make Speed boost mounts overpowered.
And they will be demanded even if out of combat. Since someone joining a group for a dungeon, then has to get to the dungeon ASAP. If they say " I can’t get there faster.." " hey don’t you have a Mount??" What should they do…Lie? or tell the truth? if they tell the truth they get kicked out of the group.
So Speed Boost mounts have to 1. be Aesthetically pleasing. 2. Not look rediculous. 3. Not be Lore Breaking. That means NO live creatures as mounts, they must all be constructs. and 4. Be properly balanced across all other speed boost skills…so that they are not OP, and then everyone HAS to have them, even players that do not want them. A playeerr riding a speed boost mount must be balanced with an elementalist using air attuned staff skill #4.
Here is a thought. Since they must be constructs…turn that into an independant quest all it’s own. You need someone to build it for you, an NPC in Mount Maelstrom that you need to get to, that then tells you the components you need.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
What flumoxxes me is, how there are some…not all… but some proponents that either do not see the balancing nightmare that would ensue from a speed boost mount. Or simply do not care. They Just want their speed boost mount.
As I wrote a little earlier, I don’t believe this game is balanced when it comes to out-of-combat speed. There are some professions who have a far smaller cost to their combat builds in order to get it than others.
In-combat speed, I get. Come professions are built around the idea of zipping around while in combat. Putting a careful wall between mounts and combat, along the line of many suggestions that have been made in this thread, would protect combat balance while fixing the imbalance that currently exists in out-of-combat speed.
The balancing alone is a bar to entry. Then add on top of that the fact that it will slow down the game even more for those on slower computers. Anet doesn’t want even More things that keep people from playing the game.
We have at least one post indicating that the option to turn off all mounts would not be a problem, and would work like our current system to see the default models of every profession. If that’s the case, I’d be very happy if people with slow computers and those who hate mounts can simply toggle them off.
This is all while discounting completely the objections from people that simply do not want mounts in any way, shape , or form.
Since your remark was generalized, I don’t know who you consider to be discounting the arguments completely.
I would hope, however, that you can see taking time to address those objections with counter-arguments is not discounting at all. It is treating them with the respect that is due to someone who disagrees.
I will admit, I used to be One that Just did not care for mounts at all Not even a Little bit. But to quote a famous Politician about marriage equality… " My views on the matter have evolved."
For me, there is a difference between having " Hide mounts" when it comes to cosmetics only" mounts. ( Which do not move any fastwer than people without a Mount)…and using this for speed buff mounts.
Seeing a player NOT mounted zipping along at even 125 % speed boost is ridiculous. As such a speed boost mount Now crawls ( see what I did there?) from a " Mount I can hide and Not see " to " a mount I HAVE to see."
At this point if we are to have a speed boost mount. it HAS to be aesthetically pleasing to most.. and that is hard to do since “Degustibus at coloris non est disputandum”….
it also has to be balanced against all other speed even out of combat. The devs decided that speed is to be balanced across classes at all times…not just combat. While I myself do not Understand that reasoning the only thing I can suggest is… identifying that moment when combat takes place and then switching one rule set " Non combat speed boosts." from the other." combat speed boosts." may not be worth it for most players… they see no distinction.
it seems that only if you are trying to Put a speed boost mount in the game that ONLY derives the speed boost while OUT of combat would you need to Introduce the " In combat speed boost" rule set..( without mounts)…from the " Out of combat speed boost " ruleselt..( includes mounts)
Too much work too much in terms of resources, to satisfy a group that just want fluff.
The devs have better things to do than this.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
Will other “pro-mount” proponents now come out demanding higher speed boost, perma-speed boost?
[some things deleted to keep salient point]
I have seen it here. There is a distinct difference bettwen a cosmetics only mount that can be " hide mounts" on log in…. and a speed boost mount.
Except you’d have to show that the people who are asking for a speed boost mount didn’t want one or ask until a cosmetic-only was accepted.
I’ve talked about a 60% speed boost mount since we first started discussing the possibility of mounts in game on Guru back in 2010. I didn’t need acceptance of cosmetic-only to ask for it. And if I ever get it, I won’t start asking for flying mounts.
You can argue that having a speed-boost mount is going to lead down a slippery slope to request for flying mounts, but we’ve already had requests for flying mounts on these forums without even having any land-based mounts in game.
I can buy Nike’s slippery slope. If cosmetic horses and dolyaks get added to game, and people with swiftness buffs are blowing past mounted riders left and right because riders are restricted to standard running speed, I expect there would be a vocal request that mounts at least get the 33% buff.
Which is why I keep talking about how a speed boost mount might work in game. I’m one of those people who wouldn’t want a standard-running-speed only mount. And the reason is not because I have a burning desire to get around the tediousness of swapping kits every ten seconds or maintaining my Air/Water/Fire rotation as I cross zones, or equipping and unequipping Focus on my Mesmer in between combats.
It’s primarily because I want the feel of riding a mount, which definitely wouldn’t happen no matter how epic I look on the back of a horse if I’m traveling at this game’s slow standard run speed.
However, I don’t buy 33% speed boost will start the slide down to 120% speed boost which will inevitably lead to flying mounts. There are significant differences of degree there, and a flying mount will do the opposite of moderate speed boost mount, taking people back out of traveling across the world like the waypoint system.
What about the nightmare that will ensue to balance your speed boost mount against all the Speed boost skills, traits, runes and sigils? Just so you can " feel the experience of riding a Mount?"
Or the fact that someone else… playing on a slower, older machine has to pay the price by having a worse experience, just so you can go " yippy – kai-yay" on your Dolyak?
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Well, we have 2 cosmetic-only no-speed-buff mounts in game now. I don’t see it as having satisfied the majority of the pro-mounts camp: the majority of pro-mount voices want the speed for getting around, and clearly they aren’t satisfied with the options/costs for speed that exist now.
And here is the bar that keeps mounts off the game, as most people that want mounts envision mounts.
To me it seems they want mounts as they exist in other games Like World of warcraft. Where there is a permanent speed boost. The issue for me is, Speed, is a balanced commodity.
It is balanced by class skills… class traits, it is provided in a balanced way by runes.. and sigils. To suddenly have a permanent speed boost mount would basically make all these balancing attempts completely irrelevant as all someone needs to do is buy a mount.
Second a speed boost mount added to the game means that EVERYONE now has to have a mount, even players that detest mounts. Those that say " if you don’t want one you don’t have to get one" are being disingenuous. If there is a perma-speed boost EVERYONE will have to get one, and even those that refuse to get one will have to see one.
What flumoxxes me is, how there are some…not all… but some proponents that either do not see the balancing nightmare that would ensue from a speed boost mount. Or simply do not care. They Just want their speed boost mount.
The balancing alone is a bar to entry. Then add on top of that the fact that it will slow down the game even more for those on slower computers. Anet doesn’t want even More things that keep people from playing the game.
This is all while discounting completely the objections from people that simply do not want mounts in any way, shape , or form.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
I’m not a programmer, but wouldn’t the option to hide all mounts for some players add to the complexity of what the game has to handle?
That aspect is pretty minor – it adds one bit to the packet describing each character (0 for normal, 1 for mounted). A filter to not see people as mounted is actually as simple as a client-side mask that always turns the mounted/on-foot bit to 0 before handing the packet on to the rendering engine.
The bar to Cosmetics only mounts has been handled. The issue is. Are people that want mounts ONLY happy with a cosmetics only mount?
or
Will other “pro-mount” proponents now come out demanding higher speed boost, perma-speed boost?
While sometimes " slippery slope" is a logical fallacy….. there are times when giving an inch, leads to the other side tugging hard to grab your whole arm.
I have seen it here. There is a distinct difference bettwen a cosmetics only mount that can be " hide mounts" on log in…. and a speed boost mount.
The big question is. Will all the people that want mounts be happy with a cosmetics only mount? Or will this be the cue for the " But it must do something!" crowd to join in? Hence the " slippery slope" NON Logical fallacy?
- cues Carmina Burhana*
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
So… 100 % cosmetic, zero speed boost and those that do not wish to see them, can “Hide mounts” at log in. Good for you guys?
While I agree that addresses most of the pressing issues, the problem is slippery slope. I think the ratio after introducing what you’re describing between people who want mounts saying a “Ok, good. I’m covered” and “SEE!?!? NOW FINISH GIVING US MOUNTS!” is so lopsided as to be comical.
The number of people it satisfies is low, and the ammunition it provides to the full-service mounts camp is very, very high.
Given the line they seem to wish to draw, it’s a can of worms not worth opening.
THANK YOU!!!! someone else besides me gets it.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
The Only way I Myself would be more accepting of speed boost mounts is if:
1. They are aesthetically pleasing. Speed Boost mounts should not be hid, it would look rediculous.
2. They use up a utility slot. it need not be an elite. Just one of the 7 – 9 spots works.
3. NO attacks while mounted, and the only skill in the 1 key is " dismount"
4. Someone mentioned speed boost on roads. I am all for that as Long as Players also get the speed boost on roads.
5. If a mounted Player is attacked while Mounted, there is no auto-dismount. They are also Vulnerable, cannot attack, take damage, and must manually auto-dismount.
6. While mounted if struck they take an added confusion stack, a stun for 2 seconds, and if they do not manually dismount within 2 seconds of being struck, they will then be knocked off the mount…taking additional damage.
7. No Mounts in WvW.
8. be coded in such an optimized way that no older machine is suddenly unable to run the game, just as well, as it always has. No slow down, no added bar to entry.
The last is very important, Not because I have an older machine. I Just got an i7 4770…etc etc bla bla bla. it is important because players that play on older machines should Not have to Upgrade their machines so that other players can ride mounts.
PS: My HUGE Objection to all this though seems to be something that cannot be resolved. And that is… Speed boost mounts MUST be balanced against all other speed skills, speed traits, runes, sigils etc……
Also…. if it is a perma-boost mount even with the restrictions above…. once they are out..EVERYONE will have to have one, even those that hate mounts….Just like in World of Warcraft. In other words. " I do Not want it, but i f I do not have it, I will be late getting from WP to dungeon…."
Many times In WoW I was added to a group.. told where the group was going, and have said " Hold on, I don’t have my flying mount yet." only to be dropped from the group without warning or discussion.
The game’s community doesn’t need added toxicity.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
I’m strongly against mounts, but I could accept them with a few strict restrictions:
1. Mounts cannot be used in cities. The local city governments are strongly against the idea of having to clean up the poo of thousands of mounts and the additional logistics that would cause.
2. Mounts should have a speed restriction that caps the fastest mounts at the normal running speed for a player. This removes the potential negative impact on the waypoint system as well as the advantage of having a mount over not having a mount.
3. No flying mounts. No ridiculous mounts (dragons, etc). Moas, dolyaks, these could make sense. A mini Shatterer mount or a centaur mount, not so much.
4. Keep the types of mounts limited, (dolyaks, moas, etc.) but allow for the customization of the mounts to flourish. Different armors (cosmetic) or costumes for your mounts could be available in the Black Lion Trading Post. Mount Makeover kits could be available to customize your mounts appearance (horns, head shape, eyes, beaks, etc.)
Something like this could be acceptable. However, no mounts at all works just fine for me.
My Big Thing is to let me be able to select " Hide Mounts" at Log in. I do Not wish to see them.
Second even if I do not see them, my second issue is that some players would grief others by Placing them around NPC’s. so they Must be “no collision”… there must be no way that a Mount interferes with a Player.
Would those that want mounts be happy with a 100 % cosmetic Mount that moves at the rate of the player and Not a bit faster?
Even temporary speed boost is a balancing nightmare. And the ONLY benefit is " I would like it, it would Look cool for me, it would be fun for me. I want it."
Those reasons are not compelling. They would not Justify the work it would entail, especially when Anet has put waypoints all over the place to not have mounts.
So… 100 % cosmetic, zero speed boost and those that do not wish to see them, can “Hide mounts” at log in. Good for you guys?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
That would be cool if there were Guild Houses. Or Guild Territories.
And the reason i think there isnt any mounts is because there are WP for fast travel.Skyrim had both mounts and fast travel. Skyrim is a Game of the Year material.
Fast travel is no excuse for lack of mounts.
Mounts would be fine if everyone ONLY wanted Cosmetics Only Mounts with zero speed boost, that also allowed players to select " hide Mounts" at Log in.
Is this the types of Mounts you guys desire? if so… sign me up.
Problem is Incrementalism. Once you accept this,. the pro-mount people will want more, and more, next thing you know we are discussing " speed boost" then 150 % ….then 180 %..then flying mounts….
Nope. Just…no..for all the reasons already stated.
Skyrim may be game of the year, but that is because it works for Skyrim. Just because “Game XDFG” is Game of the year, doesn’t mean we need to absorb any feature from it. One of these days Look at all the awards Gw2 has recieved. Should TESO take on features from Gw2 to be good?
or should they just be a unique game, as gw2 seeks to also be a unique game?
1. My opinion changed, It wouldn’t matter if mounts had a 25% speedboost. I can’t see anything wrong with that in the PvE world. A player can easily get that from a signet; however in turn, it will improve gameplay as a player is no longer stuck with a specific weaponset/signet/rune/trait forever. I see the anti-mount’s vision of clustery mess is unrealistic. Example, I don’t see every tom, jerry and joe showing off their Queen Jennah mini.
2. You confuse Incrementalism with slippery slope, a logical fallacy.
3. You asked the wrong question. Because I say yes, TESO should take some/most/all features from GW2 to be good because TESO isn’t good. It is average.
Talk to the guy above me, he wants gw2 taking from Skyrim because “Skyrim is Game of the year… material.” Didn’t gw2 already win Game of the year?
if Skyrim or TESO is simply average, why should we take from them? If Gw2 won game of the year… why should it give up on what is clearly working? Waypoints and zero mounts.?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
That would be cool if there were Guild Houses. Or Guild Territories.
And the reason i think there isnt any mounts is because there are WP for fast travel.Skyrim had both mounts and fast travel. Skyrim is a Game of the Year material.
Fast travel is no excuse for lack of mounts.
Mounts would be fine if everyone ONLY wanted Cosmetics Only Mounts with zero speed boost, that also allowed players to select " hide Mounts" at Log in.
Is this the types of Mounts you guys desire? if so… sign me up.
Problem is Incrementalism. Once you accept this,. the pro-mount people will want more, and more, next thing you know we are discussing " speed boost" then 150 % ….then 180 %..then flying mounts….
Nope. Just…no..for all the reasons already stated.
Skyrim may be game of the year, but that is because it works for Skyrim. Just because “Game XDFG” is Game of the year, doesn’t mean we need to absorb any feature from it. One of these days Look at all the awards Gw2 has recieved. Should TESO take on features from Gw2 to be good?
or should they just be a unique game, as gw2 seeks to also be a unique game?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
If it will make money, no matter how ridiculous it seems, ANet has reason to put it in the game at some point. And the idea on how to make money using it was pitched in a few post a few pages back.
Also, with your examples, keep in mind we’re talking about ANet here, and even bigger than ANet, NCSoft.
But again, opinions. And all that.
Yes, NCSoft is the parent Company, this is where experience with Anet going back to gw1 release comes in. NCSoft unless it has changed In the past few years, knows that it makes money from Anet best by leaving Anet alone.
Anet is NCSoft’s Golden Goose, you don’t cut it open to get the eggs out. You let it lay eggs.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Not as many as you think – the broom didn’t sell well so why would others?
The broom didn’t sell well because there’s no point in having something like that when you can only use it in towns, much like the town clothes. A mount is something that would be used in the open world, and would typically have a practical use, again, unlike the broom, which didn’t do anything but fulfill someone’s desire of being a virtual witch.
We are simply saying… they will not add mounts.
Oh, when did you get insider knowledge of what ANet’s going to add and what they aren’t? What’s that? You didn’t? Oh. It’s your opinion? Alright. You’re entitled to it since a forum is a place to share opinions.
I do Not need to be an insider to see from How a game currently is, where it might or might not go In the future. I can also tell with some accuracy what they will Not do.
In baseball, the American and National leagues cannot decide on a strike zone, or whether the pitcher should bat. Each has their own rules.
Might there be a change In either league? Maybe …maybe not. see the location of the strike zone, is a small change within all the rules of the game… or whether there should be a Pinch hitter for the pitcher.
Tell you what you will not see… a halftime show that lasts an Hour after the 5th inning. You also won’t seethe game move to having 5 strikes per at-bat, or 19 innings per game.
Now you can ask " were you in the closed door meetings with the MLB officials?" No.
But you don’t need to be to know that some changes have a High % chance of being made…" new skills. … new traits… new armors. … balancing classes."
and some a Low… % chance. “Mounts”
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
With your argument there would be no reason to add any new fun content and all we get would be for QoL patches.
…i have already addressed that in this discussion, several pages ago. I will quote it back:
Any new introduction to the game needs to be weighted in terms of necessity (does the game needs it?), desirability (do the people want it? are the people against it?) and difficulty (how hard it is to implement). For something to be done, the first two need to outweight the third.
What you are speaking now is the second point (desirability). Fun content worth introducing is the one that is fun to majority, or one that is fun for significant number of players and has no strong opposition.
Mounts are a content that is indeed fun to some, but so far there is nothing to suggest that it fulfills one of those criteria. Quite the opposite, in fact.
In short, you were unable to prove so far that it is indeed a fun content. Only, that it is fun personally to you. Those are not the same.
Yeah and you said that
So again, by your definition, new content would never be introduces because there will always be people want wanting it and they outweighs those wanting it.
No. reread what i wrote. It works that way here, because those that want mounts are not in majority (or at least nothing points to them being in one).
So, to rephrase what you said so it actually follows what I have said:
“If something that is not in the game and there are people who want it for fun and there are people who do not want it, and there is at least as many people that do not want it, then the not wanting out-waits the wanting because it takes away more fun that it brings”.
Pretty sure you are wrong about that majority part. It would be a uge selling point for an expansions because so many people are interested in it.
Not as many as you think – the broom didn’t sell well so why would others?
Because it was just a skin that most people don’t even see as a mount and does not fit’s with most races / armor. As you can see by the many people here who forget about it when saying there are no mounts or it’s not in the core.
Now make mounts real mounts with speed-boost and multiple mounts to pick from. Stuff that fits better then a silly broom and you can expect more interest.
I am obviously interested in mounts and I did not get the broom yet. I don’t really see it as a mount but form a ‘lore’ perspective it of course is.
Give up on speed boost, it ain’t gonna happen. Don’t hold your breath.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Are people honestly willing to argue that everything that will ever be in game is currently in game? That we’ll only ever get reworks of things they’ve already put in game, because if it was going to be added, it would have by now?
No. Just saying if mounts were ever gonna be In the game , they would have been by now. We are being VERY specific. No, you cannot say " if they do Not add mounts that means, they will never add ANYTHING."
We are simply saying… they will not add mounts.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.