Guild Wars 2

Otaur.9268:

chemiclord.3978:

This is one of those weird things that I’m not sure I understand why EITHER side is so adamant.

1) Why MUST we have mounts? It’s not like the maps in GW2 are massive. Even if you wanted to straight up run across an entire zone, you’re not looking at much more than a handful of minutes. I mean, is it a prestige thing? I don’t get why some players are so in love with them.

2) On the other hand… why are people so strongly AGAINST them? The waypoint method is superior in every way (the travel cost is a pittance). Mounts would be barely more than a silly vanity item. What would it really matter?

Seems like a really weird thing to be drawing battle lines over. I mean, as often as this topic comes up, we could mount every person who wants one on the dead horses that have been beaten over it.

1) People like having mounts, cause running is tedious, and mounts usually increase run speed from 50% – 200% in games…

2) People are against it because the more time ANet spends designing mounts, is less time they fix the already broken stuff with the game. Especially stuff that has been broken since release.

Speed boost is something the developers have decided needs to be in balance class to class.

Some classes have greater opportunities to increase speed..than others.

This will be completely undone by mounts that increase speed even temporarilly.

The devs want players to pick a utility that grants speed boost so that they have to swap something else out. This is how Anet wants it.

Mounts with any kind of speed boost would be unbalancing.

The ONLY way i could see mounts In this game is with 3 conditions…

1. Either they are totally cosmetic, or they take a utility slot that mimics the speed boost of a skill that class already has.

2. They can be toggled off when I log In so i need Not see them.

3. They do not make the character riding the Mount even if I don’t see the Mount ..Look weird. No " floating around in seated position with their feet off the ground."

Some say that those against mounts should come up with better arguments than " we don’t need them."

I agree. A much better reason is “We don’t want them.”

We are not the ones that want something that is Not in the game to be added to the game. And imposed On members of the community that do not want it in the game. Therefore it is incumbent on the players that want mounts to propose compelling reasons for the inclusion of mounts.

The reasons have to be compelling enough to:

1. Justify the developers devoted energy, time, resources to the endevor of providing mounts.

2. Justify the developers pulling their energy, time, resources away from other aspects of the game, that others view as more important. ( class balance…skill balance..etc)

3. Overcome the objections of the members of the community that simply do not want them, and don’t need to give a reason. We want what Anet is currently providing…“No Mounts”. And the ONLY reason we need is.." Anet is Not providing them, and we agree with Anet."

The following are not compelling:

1. it would be cool.
2. I want them.

Anet is Not going to impose mounts on a player-base that is adamantly against their inclusion to appease a segment of the player base that lists frivolous reasons for their inclusion.

So those that wish to have mounts In the game, The burden is on THEM to provide compelling reasons for their inclusion, while all that those of us that don’t want mounts have to say is… " we are fine with the developer’s continuing and consistent decision, to not include mounts."

I want to thank everyone that responded, Now it makes sense.

I have been doing some research on Engineers since it seems to have so many options, that I am curious what I should be aiming for In terms of what utilities to unlock etc…

I saw a Video on HGH build that suggests “on swap” sigils. I thought engineers were denied the option to weapon swap. How do the sigils procc?

Or do the procc when you go from Flamethrower to your regular weapon set?

Any help would be appreciated.

Raire.7983:

If people still want mounts, why do I never see anyone (except me) flying the new kites? I suspect ANet pay far more attention to what people are actually doing, than saying – so lobbying on the forums is pointless, if almost nobody is bothering to use those sorts of items in the game.

Because many of the players that want a Mount do Not just want a cosmetic mount.
They want a Mount that " does something"

Sometimes they want 185 % permanent speed boost. Sometimes they want Mounted Combat.

But a purely cosmetic mount is what many do not desire, so they don’t pay for a purely cosmetic mount…. while advocating for " mounts" On the forums.

Maybe a few are playing the old door -to-door salesperson trick of putting their foot in the door, thinking that most people… won’t slam the door closed On their foot.

So they do not say " speed Boost mount" but if you read the old threads, a Lot of them will say " we don’t want a mount that doesn’t do anything, it has to do something"

As to the title of the thread. In many games … maybe . In Gw2 The Right time for mounts is never. At least in my opinion. I never want to see them.

Keiel.7489:

If you stop throwing the word “need” around and just start using the word “want” it work out better. There is no need for mounts, but if there is a player base that wants mounts, then why not? How will them having a inferior means of already provided travel impede on you playing the game?

These reasons have already been argued to the ground. The horse is undead.
Very few people want to dredge the topic up to begin with. Maybe a search for " suggestion: Mounts?" Might bring up one of the 109,974,723 threads that have been argued to Orr and back.

Skyler Lazeroth.6412:

I thought it would be a nice method of introducing mounts, I never said to remove waypoints, but it’d be fun for a while while the story events fixed the problem xD. The waypoint system is great but not perfect, I agree with Nexxe. It’s the small details that make something great, yeah the mounts are not necessary, but so are many things in the game like Serac said. And yeah, I don’t see Arena Net doing this xD nevertheless I wanted to share, this was my first time in the forums. Thank you for responding! (I changed the topic title because “Excuse” wasn’t really what I wanted to express, it’s more about the timing)

I believe that while you say " make it temporary", to me that seems a bit…disingenuous. Once the genie is out of the Bottle, it is Not as easy putting it back in.

Just imagine the uproar if after 3 months with " temporary " mounts Anet says " Ok… the waypoints have been fixed, starting next tuesday’s patch , " no more mounts"

Secondly, a LOT of players Love the fact that NO mounts is part of the lore. Suddenly all the pro-mounts advocates can say " Not anymore."

Lastly, I am certain that a month before they Put all the waypoints back, and take the Mounts away, players that want to keep the Mounts will start with." but isn’t Tyria better off without waypoints? it seems bigger now…let’s forget the WP’s and Just keep the Mounts. Besides Anet proved it could be done!"

Getting rid of temporary mounts would be Like….. getting rid of a temporary tax. or a temporary fare hike…. or a temporary bridge toll.

chemiclord.3978:

This is one of those weird things that I’m not sure I understand why EITHER side is so adamant.

1) Why MUST we have mounts? It’s not like the maps in GW2 are massive. Even if you wanted to straight up run across an entire zone, you’re not looking at much more than a handful of minutes. I mean, is it a prestige thing? I don’t get why some players are so in love with them.

2) On the other hand… why are people so strongly AGAINST them? The waypoint method is superior in every way (the travel cost is a pittance). Mounts would be barely more than a silly vanity item. What would it really matter?

Seems like a really weird thing to be drawing battle lines over. I mean, as often as this topic comes up, we could mount every person who wants one on the dead horses that have been beaten over it.

My personal opinion, as a player that is playing this…And World of Warcraft… and enjoying both… is…

That Gw2 does not need mounts. The waypoints are more than adequate. And I agree, coming up with a contrived plot device to re-introduce a topic that has more than likely seen at least 50 different threads… Not exaggerating…. goes a Bit beyond the pale.

World of Warcraft needs mounts, the zones are bigger. It lacks waypoints. As such you need to hoof it( pardon the pun). No waypoints in My opinion, make the game world seem larger, since

1. You spend MORE time traversing it.
2. You may suddenly come across stuff trying to kill you each and every step of the way… and…

3. You only avoid that when you get flying mounts at level 60.

My opinion is, that Guild wars 2 for me seems a smaller world AFTER you have Unlocked the waypoints. Since you can just Port from place to place. It has gotten where me and My wife actually choose to ignore the WP system entirely. Since we duo.. and are not In any rush, we take the scenic route..More romantic that way…Until we run into a Bunch of Minotaur….or ettin… then it’s ugh..pass the air freshener.

My point.

There are games with Mounts and games without. There are games with mounts that do it well, and games with mounts that do not do it well. World of warcraft has some negatives..Like me having to look at a dragon’s rear end when I go to the mailbox…

The reason many are adamantly anti mount in gw2 in my opinion is.. that as far as I know among high tier MMO’s No mounts at all is rather uncommon.

They have also made it a part of the lore that No one rides beasts for transportation. This is a culture that has evolved beyond the need for mounts. There are plenty of good games out there with mounts. I seriously do Not Know many good games that have made NOT having a Mount part of the Lore, and have designed a system to make ride-able mounts irrelevant , and Unnecessary.

Ultimately,… the reason many are aadamantly anti-mount is… they would have to have mounts Imposed On them….. to please players that want mounts for what many consider unnecessary frivolous reasons.

1. it would be cool.
2. it would look cool.
3. I want it, because I need to show everyone that I have money to burn.( Status symbol.)
4 Speed-boost. ( would be unbalanced. OP, and therefore mandatory for EVERYONE, Including those not wanting mounts.)

Ultimately…there are plenty of games that already have mounts. I Love Mounts On WoW, I do not want them here. If people have to have mounts to be happy, Instead of beating a dead horse here, maybe they should play another game.

nexxe.7081:

A lot of you are missing the point in this thread.

Sure, people can wear whatever stats they want, but it’s not going to be efficient, and it’s going to waste people’s time.

And that’s the real problem here. People value their time. They want the most efficient group that will clear dungeons fast. They do not want a group member that will be a hinderance to the overall dungeon run.

It’s easy to say, “then just find another group”, but the reality is, that you’ll be in the minority of most meta-dungeon runners. You will be the person that isn’t contributing to the group efficiently, because you want to be stubborn, or out of ignorance, and use sub-optimal gear, traits, and builds.

I’ll use an example from WoW (since most people are familiar with it).

Let’s say a Paladin specs into the DPS role Retribution, a Druid in a Feral dps spec, and 3 other DPS classes. Would you ever run with this group into a heroic dungeon? The answer is no. There wouldn’t be a tank or a healer. Sure, this group could eventually complete the dungeon if they were good at their classes, but it would be slower, and less efficient. The druid would have to use sub-par healing skills, to keep people alive, and then his DPS feral spec would’ve been utterly useless to bring in the first place. This is what some of you arguing for. It’s silly. No sane group would want you.

This is the same with GW2. Why bring other roles, when it’s not needed? The encounters aren’t designed with them in mind. The encounters become standard for stacking and zerging, with condition caps, whether it was intentional or not. Most devastating encounters can also be avoided by dodging, which in effect, makes other roles, that can block and shield the group, pretty much useless.

If you’re not doing DPS, inexperienced at your class, and not being self-reliant on your survival.. then you’re not contributing to the group that wants to finish the dungeon for the 100th run.

If the encounters actually needed support roles, then they would be just as desired as DPS roles, but they don’t. DPS is the desired, and preferred, role.

This is what Gw2 is. Whether it is what the devs intended when the game launched or not. This is what it is Now.

I for one think that it could and should be less this, and More diverse. I would Like to see less reliance on dps and More support, and control… but….

Albert Einstein defined Insanity, as " doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results."

People have complained for 2 years…I along with them.

I think after 2 years…..either Anet is not paying attention, or…. their Numbers tell them that we are in the minority, and most players are happy with the meta…

I think that to have more diverse builds…. as enjoyable as it might be, and as much a benefit as it might be to the community, and improvement to the game…. It is highly unlikely it will happen.

It would take a re-envisioning of mob encounters and a real upgrade to mob AI, I sincerely doubt they will Invest In this, just to please a few highly vocal players.

Personally…I think there is as mucha chance of us seeing speed Boost mounts On the game, as there is of us seeing more Build diversity.

The game is what it is. We can play it and enjoy it, or not play it. But this late in the game..change it??? better chance of riding flying dragons .

People need to accept that this is as the developers Intended. I find it hard to believe that the devs do NOT want zerker gear to be the best. If they didn’t I am certain that in 2 years, they would have done something more than the ferocity patch.

So since I don’t think they are incompetent, or unable to present us with the game they wish us to play…. the only thing I can surmise is, that this is what the devs intended.

We need to adapt… or… seek out Non-meta groups.. But choosing to wear anything BUT zerker, then seeking speed-clear groups… is an exercise in futility.

We are free to wear PVT gear, and speed-clear groups are free to not give any of us a shot… and kick us… until Anet changes the Kick mechanic.

If they make it possible for groups to say " wait, you’re wearing PVT?" then rapidly kick us..that is their prerogative.

We can adapt… seek like-minded groups…or.. Look for content elsewhere.

Tree.3916:

Serbianwolf.1652:

Tree.3916:

Mortifer.2946:

Tree.3916:

snip

It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

Gear doesn’t determine your role or your playstyle. Gear is simply where you fall on the axis of tanky – glassy and another axis of direct damage – condition damage.

Those stat combinations are not useless, btw. For starters they all have a use in pvp and wvw at a minimum. Secondly, newer players who don’t know the bosses and don’t know how to time dodges benefit greatly from tankier gear sets, or gear sets that have high sustain. For the purposes of providing a margin of error to newer players, the wide variety of gear sets works exactly as intended.

If you’re upset that extremely experienced players who know all the encounters don’t need to wear tanky gear that’s just carebear, no offense. If you care about what’s best/optimal play whats best. If you care about an RP adventure where your character is a reflection of the story you have for him/her in your head and tanky gear is part of that… well don’t complain when that isn’t optimal for people who care about what’s best.

False! Try to dodge and counter strong AoE! Even dodge won’t save you. As he said, most of gear sets are useless and this is sad truth.

What are you talking about? Dodging works for “strong aoe” too. And I spent a good portion of my post explaining how the gearsets aren’t useless at all, so if you have a response to that please making it factual rather than repeating a discredited statement with italics as if that makes it less discredited.

Hey..I have been on the internet forums Long enough to see How it works…

italics and bold type means it’s TRUE, because it’s Bold and italisized !!!

chemiclord.3978:

I think PART of the problem here is in the thread title; players who are still insistent on a “role.”

That’s simply not how the game was designed. You are expected to do damage, AND provide boons, AND provide control as the situation warrants. If you aren’t doing all three, you are not maximizing your character’s potential.

Secondly, the gear you wear (regardless of its prefix), really isn’t optimal across the board. Go ahead and take your ‘zerker gear into a PvP match. You will most likely get ’rektd’, and very possibly by the condition damage over time scorned upon by the PvE community.

WvW is a LITTLE more forgiving, but even then, ’zerker gear is not optimal, and even builds without SOME points down the vit and toughness lines are more likely going to be regarded as “lunch” as opposed to this unstoppable force of nature.

The “problem” is that in PvE content, especially in the open world, you can overwhelm content with sheer numbers, and those numbers quickly make boons fairly irrelevant and generates so many stacks of Defiant that control is nigh entirely worthless. That IS a design issue, but it really is a very narrow one in what amounts to a pretty small amount of the content… but its one that a LOT of people zerg towards. It probably does need to change, somehow, though such “trains” also seem very popular, and they tend to get angry when they are changed even superficially.

In dungeons/fractals, there is one established “experienced” meta… which sad to say folks, is NOT unusual for ANY MMO. The meta is always going to be pretty narrow, and it’s not simply a matter of “changing the AI or the stats.”

If you could magically solve all the server problems with condition caps, jack up mob armor to over 9000, scale condition damage even higher, and give the mobs attacks that you need toughness to survive, the only thing that would happen is “zerker or GTFO” would become “rabid or GTFO.”

We, as players, REALLY need to stop railing against the min-maxers like they are some overwhelming force. Because they will ALWAYS exist, and if there is any way to squeeze out just a little more raw numbers in a game, the “hardcore” players (and pretenders) WILL find it, and they WILL insist on it if you are to group with them.

Whether you like it or hate it… you might as well be kittening into the wind.

I have been wrong. I’ll be the first to admit it. I have always seen the whole " zerker or gtfo!" as a weakness of gw2. But after reading many threads I have come to see what the devs Intended.

It seems to me that their intent was that while zerker gear rules In some situations… it will totally suck In others unless you are In the top 3 to 5 % of players, and can somehow survive in sPvP or WvWvW while wearing it.

As such, I think I…( speaking only for myself) may best enjoy this game if I see it as such. The same way I would not wear a Mini skirt to a formal affair, or an evening gown to a stri- I mean… dance club… I need to readjust and Understand that while In Guild wars skills were situational… it seems that in Gw2… it is the GEAR that is situational.

Gives me food for thought. Thank you for crystallizing this for me.

First off maha you missed my point entirely. The meta is the meta because it is what Anet decided it should be. If they wanted the meta to be other than what it is, they would make different choices when encountering designs.

" Kerker or gtfo… Pure damage all the time..PVT means you don’t dodge well. Etc"

Not saying I agree it should be the meta. And Not advocating for the changes I mentioned.

Secondly Tman…. this game is supposed to have a trinity.

Look it up. Damage, Control, and Support. According to Anet.

What it is Not supposed to have is purely devoted roles. No WoW Priest healer to keep your bacon out of the fire, No… Paladin Tank to focus all attention.

The problem is.. that while they may have promised the Trinity of damage, Control, and Support…. somewhere along the line they DID provide the tools for them….Just Not the NEED for them.

One reason may be that the community seems to be under the impression that they promised " No Trinity"

They never promised No trinity. Alll I Know is any time anyone suggests that maybe the other 2 legs of the Anet proposed Trinity be strengthened, someone says " hey sounds Like you want the Trinity back."

No I Just want the trinity Anet promised.

Galen Grey.4709:

Only this is not the case at all. Gw2 isnt a game in which there is no one to heal. It isnt a game where there is no one to crowd control. This isnt a game where there is no one to Damage over time. This isnt a game where there is no one to support. etc…

DigitalKirin got it exactly right. Gw2 is a game that unlike most others doesnt force you into a role. thats all. It gives you all the tools you need to do anything you need and its up to you how to act. You want to go full out burst damage.. sure that works but it isnt the only thing that works.

Should the game be blamed for giving us freedom of choice? Is a role only valid if without it you fail? If I enjoy playing a support is there no point in playing one if with no support we can still complete a dungeon?

You said it yourself, you played an engineer and enjoyed yourself. An engineer like say someone specked for a support role doesn’t deal as much damage as some other professions. Does that mean its not viable?

So no I wouldnt say you’re trying to sell the anti-venom somewhere where there are no poisons snakes, you’re selling the anti-venom where there are plenty of snakes only the locals only care about extracting the venom with their mouths cause its quicker for them even though that sometimes leads to unfortunate consequences.

The big problem is, that the game rewards certain builds..Mostly DPS, while punishing others…Things like Damage over time builds.

Why would any group take a necro into a dungeon?

Anet gave us necros, Now you can say " you can be free to play a necromancer" and fact is, I play a necromancer, but Only because I like to play either solo, or duo with my wife. But is it the community’s fault that zerker groups will not take a necromancer into a dungeon if any other prefered class is available?

My point is that you are 100 % right.

You are free to play any way you wish with any tools you wish. But if the tools you choose are considered sub-optimal by the rest of the community don’t blame the community for kicking you.

If Anet makes Damage over time, less preferable, you are perfectly free to specc as damage over time, to wear vitality or toughness gear…to specc heals, and tanks…

You are free to be sub-optimal according to what the community considers sub-optimal. And the community is free to not carry you. And who determined what builds are optimal and what builds are not? What armor is best?

let’s try a mind experiment. Imagine that Anet introduced two changes. Not saying I want these changes, but let’s introduce a few changs to encounters, and see what the " community" decides.

make it so Bosses are weak to damage over time effects but have MORE armor so that direct damage is less effective and… improve AI, so that they do not stack. Also…add a few More healers that are smart enough to not rush into the front line, Instead stay behind healing everyone else.

Suddenly…. damage over time becomes something to consider. Suddenly… pure DPS builds become less prefered.

Do I think Anet should do this? That is a subject for another thread. But I will tell you this… the " meta" will change, because the developer changed the encounters.

You can’t let anet off the hook, the reason that Pure DPS is the meta is because that is how Anet designed the game.

Fact..Most Power players Live in a skinner box. They will chase after an " optimum build" but what makes a build Optimum? it is best able to face the encounters the developer designs….

Who decides how Mobs act and react? The developer. So…who decides what is meta? Not the community….. the developer.

Are healers and tanks Possible? of course they are. The devs gave us the tools to play tanks, and healers. So…. why aren’t there more tanks and healers In dungeons?

Because Anet doesn’t want them in dungeons. They can sell us all the snake anti-venom in the world as cheaply as Possible..what good is it if they didn’t Put snakes inn the game?

The best tank, and heal tools in the game mean nothing, if encounters can be DPS’d.

Zerker or gtfo is the meta because Anet decided it was the meta by designing encounters as they are designed.

nexxe.7081:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

Not necessarily.

There is only demand because of the way the encounters are designed. If they made the encounters that demanded other playstyles, then you would see a variety of builds and other gear sets being used.

Anet doesn’t see zerging and stacking as a problem though. They tried to change it with the revamped Teq encounter, and the Triple Wurm encounter, but overall, the dungeons haven’t been changed, and neither has the open-world zerging. This is why GW2’s PVE encounters are considered a joke in the MMO world. It’s a harsh thing to say, but it’s the truth.

I agree. You can say " Anet provides the tools, but the community doesn’t demand it." but…if Anet designs encounters so that certain tools are unecessary, it doesn’t matter.

The community demand is inextricably entwined to encounter design.

Imagine I have the snake venom anti-toxin In the world, and it’s the cheapest. TRhen I decide to go to the ONE place In the world with zero poisonous snakes. I could offer them for 5 cents, No one there would buy them, because they are not necessary there.

The ONLY person that might is someone that would then take my 5 cent snake anti-venom, and sell it where there are many…Like the amazon…

Ok.. the Point. You cannot blame on " The community" what is basically a game design fault. If some Builds are desired while others are not, it is because there are many encounters where desired builds are helpful…while undesired builds are not.

You put the cart before the horse. The devs can give all of us the best anti-snake venom ointment, what good is it, if they forgot to put the snakes in the game?

I need to learn the cardinal rule of MMO’s.

If you enjoy playing an MMO, stay off the forums Like 90 % of the rest of the players.
See I came back to Play my engineer. Was actually enjoying myself. Then I decided to give a looksy at the forums. And I suddenly remembered what chased me off to begin with.

The attitude of the uber-elite " Zerk or gtfo! damage only builds or FO!" crowd.
This game really has a bad bad community on the forums, which is ironic since while playing the game…. Most players are very helpful. Escept for the aforementioned…. then again, I believe as a % of the Player base IN game… they are a lot less than as a % of posters.

The condescension just drips so thickly on some posts.

Zii The Mad.2563:

I was about to reinstall GW2, but then this thread reminded me (yet again) why I stopped playing: The dull “all over the place” combat system.

Also, I haven’t played in a very long time, yet every time I visit this forum, a thread such as this can be found no futher away than page 2. It’s a new thread every time, but it’s always about this. So this is clearly something people are completely heartbroken about, and wish their voices would be heard by ANet.

It won’t though…

I know how you feel. I also would like to see greater diversity.

But the game is over 2 years old, and the devs have not mentioned anything about greater diversity. I think even if they decided tomorrow to improve diversity, i might be a long time before we saw any change in the game.

Unfortunately, Anet follows the money, not the forum posts. As such I think we may be in the minority. It is likely that the majority of players either do not care whether or not there is greater diversity, or do not care enough to post.

It is also possible that there are players that even if they care, don’t let it change their behavior any, and continue playing, and shopping at the Gem Store.

Nothing wrong with that. If players want greater diversity, but when they weigh things against one another, they find they rather play the game, and keep buying stuff off the store, then they are the kind of a player that would welcome change if it comes, but if it doesn’t… No big deal.

As long as there are players that either don’t care about build diversity, or say they care, but don’t care enough for it to influence their play and shop patterns…

Anet will just keep doing what proves to be bringing in cash. Keep on with the current game, because I am sure if gem store purchases, or game population dropped significantly, and they could tie those patterns to the simplified..( for lack of a less offensive word) nature of gw2, I am pretty sure they would work On making the game deeper.

Players always vote with their wallet. Even when they think they aren’t. See Players seem to think that " Vote with your wallet" only means.." If you dislike the game… show it with your wallet" or " If you like the game… show it with your wallet."

We all know exactly how those two groups vote with their wallets. But there are people that do so, even when they don’t consiously think they do.

One group is the player that claims that some things in game matter, and would Like to see changes to those things… claim that they feel such changes would be better for the game…but then…. Don’t change their purchase patterns based On those feelings.

They keep buying stuff off the gem store. They CLAIM that something bothers them about the game, and when they see it On the forums, and echo the sentiments." ya, we need more diversity… ya we should have more skills." But when the new armor skins come out…. they are there with the CC.

These players are also voting with their wallets. Unfortunately, their wallet vote is not compatible with what their mouth is saying, or fingers typing.

Boneheart.3561:

Sharky.5024:

Guild Wars 2 was officially announced 23 months after the release of Guild Wars Prophecies and a year ago ArenaNet already admitted that they are working on certain „long term projects“. So maybe they will unveil the development of a next generation mmo soon…

With mounts! And permanent, challenging content, with a subscription and no cashshop! Instanced raids!

It’s as good as promised, we’re waiting, ArenaNet.

All MMO’s even those with a subscription have a cash shop. Too much money potential for any developer to get rid of it.

The question will never be.." Too cash shop or not to cash shop" The question is…" Too egregiously cash shop, or not to egregiously cash shop."

But a cash shop we will have.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Vayne.8563:

….
A lot of people feel the same way when leveling mesmers.

No doubt. I love my Mesmer(s) but leveling them is often an oversize in frustration….

I feel nothing but pure explosive and destructive joy while Leveling my Engineer(s).

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you couldn’t build much more diverse builds in GW1. Even without the exorbitant number of available skills, the dual class system allows for that alone.

The arguments as to WHY Anet went with the less complex strategy is pretty evident and won’t get changed by stating for the 100th time, “GW1 WAS MORE DIVERSE!”.

I think you need to remember who started this thread, and what their point was.

Someone that felt that Gw2 had just as much diversity as Guild wars ( laughable ), and wanted to prove his position that The reason Gw2 has as much diversity was because anyone that looked On websites Like PVX would see that the number of “optimum” builds were just as limited as Gw2’s optimal builds.

The thread was not posted by someone saying " We had more build diversity in Guild Wars, and want it here"

But it seems to me it was just someone that Liked the Build Diversity of Gw2, was trying to convince players that played and enjoyed the build diversity of " Build Wars" ( not sure it was one of us that coined the term…I believe it was Vayne..I might be wrong. if I am I apologize before hand, and vayne DID admit that Guild wars has more diversity.) that we were wrong to ever say " Guild Wars has More diversity than Gw2"

His position was " Gw2 has as many optimum builds as Guild Wars." Which to me seems…. disingenuous.

If one takes Optimum to mean " The Best for the given circumstance or situation" then by definition There is only 1 optimum build per given situation ( ie spvp, WvWvW, Pve, Boss battles, Dungeons)

The point I brought up was that Guild Wars had many more Viable builds for those given situations so that players could feel free to " Play anyway they want to play"

THAT is what made it more diverse.

The reasons why Anet made Gw2 less diverse while a good apologetic for simplified games, doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic of this thread.

Brother Grimm.5176:

If you seriously think the sole reason GW2 is “simplier” than GW1 is because the Anet Devs are just “lazy”, I can’t understand why you are bothering to continue to following anything Anet does….maybe you should just move on.

Edit:

I never said that Anet was lazy. I have always said that a lot of people that post defending Anet’s simplification of Guild Wars when they released Gw2…. have given 2 basic responses.

1. Gw2 needs to be simpler because today’s casuals, need a simpler game than Guild Wars. ( I disagree. Today’s casuals are just as equipped to play a game as deep as Guild Wars, given the oppurtunity)

and

2. Anet needs Gw2 to be simpler so that they can have an easier time balancing skills. ( I disagree, Anet is just as equipped to balance a game as deep as Guild Wars, and would provide one, if NOT given easy outs by players content with Guild Wars – superlite.)

These are the positions of people that always defend Anet.
So … who is calling Anet lazy?

SkiTz.4590:

Serophous.9085:

Quality > quantity.

Give me 5 awesome skills I have to choose three of, and not three painfully obvious chooses, and I’ll be happy.

I’ll be happy if they JUST ADD SOMETHING

Been using the same kitten rotations as an ele for 2 years.

I don’t think they need 30 new skills per class lol, theres 0% chance of that happening
But they need to add something… 1 new weapon per class + new elite/couple utitlities would be OK by me.. just to shake things up a bit..

They just don’t seem to care at all.. if it ain’t about LS or gemstore, its not a priority at all

For them LS = Expansion.

Many players have talked this to death. They are not listening. They will work on LS, and work on LS, and work on LS, because LS has to work.

They have turned their back on the model that worked so well with Guild Wars. Why?

I have heard 2 reasons provided, by people that seem to defend EVERYTHING that Anet does. If you are not these people, this does not apply to you.

1. Guild Wars is too deep for the average casual player they are trying to draw to play gw2

2. Guild Wars is too hard for Anet to balance, and Gw2 is easier.

That is why most of their focus is on Living Story ( No need to make expansions), and Gem Store ( No need to make expansions).

Sarrs.4831:

Nerelith.7360:

PPS: I want 100 different skirts or dresses. Especially leather.

I would LOVE some more cute dresses. Like you don’t even know. The winter dress is just not enough for me.

Maybe someone needs to mail the designers of this game a Frederick’s Catalog….or Victoria’s Secret.

I am SO tired of the Pirate and trenchcoat look for my leather wearers. The Cloth is fine, sexy and stuff…. even some of the " Chick in Chainmail" look of the Metal armors is good, could use more earlier on though… craftable would be cool.

But seriously..Leather ..needs…work!

Fyrebrand.4859:

Don’t forget:

• 80 new hairstyles!
• 35 new legendary weapons!
• 106 new maps!
• 90 dances!
• 18 PvP modes!
• 5 new Living Story episodes per day!
• 64 new races, including 28 species of elves!
• all races divided into 6 different warring factions! all maps are now open-world PvP!
• real-time deformable terrain and open-world Terraria-style sandbox gameplay!
• zombie outbreak virus simulation for perpetual survival horror!
• kart racing!
• Occulus Rift integration, plus brain implants for total realism!
• 75+ episode GW2 anime, plus three OVA movies, and eventual Hollywood movie trilogy starring Hugh Jackman as Logan Thackeray and directed by Michael Bay!

What I find interesting is that the OP, wasn’t asking for anything near what Guild Wars had. Guild Wars was made for lower end machines than the lowest end available for us today, and yet managed fine with hundreds of skills.

We have MMO’s today that also are doing fine with hundreds of skills.

For some reason, there are players that like Gw2 and feel that to ask for more from Anet is unreasonable… either that they cannot give us more skills, or that we need to accept that This is easier for them.

I do not think that Gw2 should be about what is easy for Anet. If Anet could do it with Guild Wars they CAN do it with gw2. It just seems to me that a Lot of players are perfectly happy giving Anet an out.

if other MMO’s can do it today, gw2 can do it today. But for some reason a lot of players are perfectly content with how low the bar is for gw2.

Doggie.3184:

I want 100 skills for each class, 100 dungeons and Cantha, Elona and 100 new armor outfits; none of which having trenchcoats or skirts.

Mine as well aim high.

Ironic. Sounds Like you want Guild Wars.

PS: I agree with the Trenchcoats But leave my skirts alone.

PPS: I want 100 different skirts or dresses. Especially leather.

jweez.7214:

Yea. And also add 50 new dungeons and ten more classes.

Lol jking but 30 seems a little excessive. What do others think?

Did they announce any expansion? Or are they sticking to providing " expansion type content in Living story"?

As long as they go with the latter, you can expect 0 new skills, 0 new classes, and 0 new weapons.

Im Mudbone.1437:

tolunart.2095:

Ashen.2907:

An interesting rant against someone who merely stated what should be standard behavior . Pay for a product if you feel it is worth the cost and that your are being treated respectfully by the provider.

Yeah that is some seriously outrageous stuff right there.

You forgot the part where Anet throws in piles of free stuff and the disgruntled customer tells them it’s not good enough.

Piles of free, MOSTLY, barely to totally unusable garbaage.

One man’s garbage is another man’s treasure.

Degustibus et coloris non est disputandum

Ashen.2907:

tolunart.2095:

darkace.8925:

That works both ways. We don’t owe ArenaNet diddly, either. They, as a company, would be wise to treat us as valued customers, and nothing less. We, as customers, should continue to support them as long as we feel they’re working in good faith to earn that support, and not a second longer.

What’s stopping you? Anet recently made a lot of changes to the game based on customer feedback like the wardrobe, trait restructuring, repeatable LS chapters, these things have been in development in some cases for over a year. And people are complaining that they have other priorities than holding players’ hands while they moan about how bad the updates are. And that they haven’t completely changed everything an individual poster doesn’t like about the updates in a mere two months.

You’re acting like spoiled children. You bought the game and your access to new content is free and perpetual, no monthly fees or paid expansions. Buying gems with real money is an option but you can also get them for free. And you have the nerve to threaten to withhold support for the game? How much do you spend a month on gems? How many millions does Anet make from this game every month?

Frankly, if you feel this strongly about the game, you should stop giving them money – assuming you do so in the first place. Go pay $15 a month to play ESO or Wildstar instead. I’m sure you’ll get your money’s worth, and Anet won’t even notice you’re gone.

An interesting rant against someone who merely stated what should be standard behavior . Pay for a product if you feel it is worth the cost and that your are being treated respectfully by the provider.

Yeah that is some seriously outrageous stuff right there.

Except Anet has gone, " above and beyond" and yet players STILL whine, and moan.
A lot of players are so entitled, and so spoiled they believe their demands are reasonable.

The ONLY thing Anet OWES us for the purchase price of the game is access to servers.

After that it’s Remote Micro Transactions I Bold typed it because it is an exchange of cash for virtual goods or services. And exchange means that BOTH sides are getting something.

The way most entitled, spoiled players behave and speak you’d think all these gem purchases were donations from the goodness of their heart, where they received nothing in exchange.

Do you have access to the servers? if the answer is no…you have reason to complain.

If the answer is yes, then Anet has fulfilled their end. if some players want more, and they decide to give more…. Then they are doing the players a favor.

If what Anet is doing is not enough for some players, the answer is simple…. Play something else. Trust me, they won’t be missed by anyone.

Vayne.8563:

Cameirus.8407:

I dont know if Anet listen or not.

But they give a very good impression of not giving a kitten.

Except we can see changes made to the game based specifically on what some people have asked for. The problem is that programming takes a lot of time. It’s always months before we see results. So people say they don’t know if Anet listens.

If you’re paying attention, they’re listening. If you’re not, they’re not.

THIS.

Here are the facts.

1. People yell when the devs give us information, and then do not act on that fast enough, according to them.

2. people yell, if they give us information, and then change their minds about How their plans are implemented.

3. people yell at the devs if they give us information, and then decide to put it off, to do something else instead.

4. People yell at the devs if they give us information, and then implement it, without asking the players HOW they wanted it implemented.

Fact.

Most gamers today are an entitled lot. Used to be that we bought a game and played it, as long as we enjoyed it. The moment we stopped enjoying it, we stopped playing it. Now we come On the forums thinking we are game designers, that know better than the professionals( I admit to this as well…).

What we need to do is post our suggestions, and assume that Anet is never going to respond. Assume they will look at our suggestions, and consider them, and implement what they find is helpful, ignore what they find is not.

We need to get over ourselves. Anet doesn’t owe us diddly…. Anet doesn’t owe us progress reports. Anet doesn’t owe us a seat at the table, when it comes to putting things into the game. Anet doesn’t owe us veto power, anet’s doesn’t owe us a darned thing. What they owe us is access to the servers. And we have that… everything after that is gravy.

Nice to see we can agree on things Vayne :-)

nexxe.7081:

We went from CDI to silence, especially on the major issues. We do get some dev comments sometimes, but the lack of silence on those topics that the OP linked is telling.

Fixed. Lack of silence is = noise.

Dusty Moon.4382:

darkace.8925:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Negative criticisms should be ignored and thrown out. They have no place in any civil society.

Hopefully, for the good of the humanity, there aren’t many who share this sentiment.

If you think gaming is that important, please go outside and breathe some fresh air.

Good of Humanity is important, gaming is not. Which is why I said what I did. If you equate the two, you need help with your priorities in life.

Gaming is good for the good of humanity. Fact is, One of the earliest ways that children learn rules, is by playing games.

While it is true that gaming is not as important as say ending sex slavery, it is Not frivolous or unimportant.

Games is the earliest we experience two core concepts of any functioning society.

1. Rules and laws and the need to follow them.

And related to it.

2. The concept of fairness.

Galen Grey.4709:

There are far too many aspects to this and plenty of good reasons why they dont do it.
Primary amongst which it will probably change absolutely nothing.

Consider they do post We’re looking into this and nothing happens for 6 months would the reaction of someone who wanted that change be?
Bet for the most part it would be, ahh they just lie to us, say they’ll look into something and then dont really do it. while there could be a ton of reasons why nothing happened in 6 months.

- change requires more time to implement
- they did evaluate it and decided its good as it is
- they implemented a change else where to lessen the impact but for the most part decided to leave it as is
- something else needs to be changed before they can deploy the actual change as it depends on it

They said it plenty of times that they do read the forums and they do take these threads seriously and we did see changes related to some of these threads even though we heard no feed back from Anet themselves on the subject. The moment they post any kind of feedback though people will consider it a promise, a commitment either way and that in turn will create certain expectations that are likely to do more harm then good.

kitten ed if they do, kitten ed if they don’t.

I agree better if they just not comment, and upgrade the game. If you do not say anything, you cannot say the wrong thing.

My Momma taught me “When you do not Know what the right thing to say is… best to keep quiet.” (Translated from Spanish)

maha.7902:

Iason Evan.3806:

I can’t believe I missed this thread! If you are saying GW2 is more build diverse you are nuts and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Just stating facts.

Perfect Example: Elementalist. I could Heal and Tank(at the same time no less on an ele ) UW with a Protective Bond/Ether Renewal build. When I was done I could 600 on my Ele and duo clear maps like Mirror of Lyss. I could go into RA with any number of builds like a Mind Blast nuker, a blinder, or Air Magic Burst. I could then go into Hard Mode Nahpui Quarter with a Sliver Armor build and that’s just ele oh and I forgot the HM solo Vaettir Farm that could be done with a similar Sliver Armor build, but totally a variation. I have left out myriad other builds for the class that totally worked including builds for HA, Prophecies, and EotN.

It’s not even a contest: GW1 wins hands down with build diversity and classes got full skill passes as well. Something GW2 totally ignores, sadly. Sometimes you don’t need balance patches, but shifts in meta to keep the game fresh. I wish ArenaNet was cognizant of that

heal and tank builds? You mean those trinity roles that don’t even exist in this game? I still wonder why these GW1 worshippers aren’t playing it, clearly GW2 must be doing something right if they’d rather not play the holy grail of video games and complain here instead.

Who says I don’t Play Guild Wars? Who says I spend Money here?

I can only speak for myself. The world is not black and white. Just because I like Guild Wars better, doesn’t mean i hate gw2. Just because i like Guild Wars better, for it’s build diversity, doesn’t mean that I don’t wish Gw2 to improve.

At the same time, just because I play gw2, doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to improve.

That is why I…speaking for myself, while loving Guild wars for it’s build diversity, and playing Guild wars for it’s diversity, and rewarding Guild Wars fincially, am also here,… complaining about gw2 for it’s LACK. Not supporting it financially.

What you fail to get is, just because I Love Guild wars that doesn’t make me a Gw2 hater. If I hated Gw2 I’d stop playing it. I haven’t because I do Not hate it.

But that doesn’t mean I am blind to where it could improve. Or that Loving it, means keeping my mouth shut, and Just playing silently.

See I believe that people that post on the forums, even if they are being critical,…. do so because they care for gw2…it’s game design decisions, and it’s direction…. if they did Not care they would not post.

I understand you dislike seeing people post negatively about a game you enjoy.

Just accept that it’s always better for a game, when people critical of it..STAY and Play….. even as they complain, than for them to just leave.

it’s Not a Black and white situation,…Just because players critique a game, doesn’t mean they hate it, they care enough to log in and critique it.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

You should look at the post I was replying to before running off on a pointless tirade. People are trying to send a message and saying so. I’m saying the message might not get through. I don’t have a problem with people not spending money in a cash shop for a game they don’t like. I’ve NEVER had a problem with that.

I just don’t think it will make the impression on Anet that some people do.

Not a tirade.. :-) All I am saying is, that just because you feel it’s pointless to stop spending cash on a game, because you feel that they will be adecquately covered by those that keep buying is no reason to say " Oh well, you’ll be alone!"

I understand that tone of voice doesn’t carry across well. But just because I disagree with you, doesn’t make it a " pointless tirade" or any type of tirade.

I am simply saying that if I say " well, not good enough for me to spend My money." I am sharing my opinion , and saying I am backing up my opinion with concrete action… Playing when I feel like it, and not spending real world cash on the game.

Now… if everyone saw things as you do, they would just say " Oh… I’ll never make an impression by myself, may as well buy that 1000 gems with real world cash, even if i think the game could use more diversity, and the game company should include more, because I…by Myself will never make an impression alone"

All I am saying is, that isn’t the way to see things.

What I am saying is..I speaking for myself… am not spending money on Gw2. And One of the reasons is, I disagree that simplifying builds to the Point where the game seems simplistic, is not worth me supporting with My cash. * If more people also agree, and decide on their own…. that they also do not wish to support it… awesome. * but if no one else feels that way, that doesn’t mean I have to just keep paying real world cash for gems.

See Vayne. I said if no one else joins , awesome. But the fact that I..speaking just for myself… am willing to stop spending real world cash for gems, and explain why… maybe others may decide " she has a point."

I understand you are 100 % happy with where the game is, you say somethings bother you, but I know that the bother is not enough for you to change, you are content.

I was speaking more for those and to those that aren’t.

The tirade was 100% pointless because you were ignoring what I was saying, and ignoring the post to which I was replying. That makes it pointless.

See I don’t disagree with what you said. At all. And before you posted it, I still didn’t disagree with what you said. You’re saying “what I don’t understand”. Well that’s not true, I understand it.

The only lack of understanding here, as evidenced by your reply, is your not understanding what I was saying.

Label it a tirade if you must, I was simply sharing My opinion, based On what I thought about what you said.

If I was wrong to say " you misunderstand" then I am wrong, that doesn’t make My response a tirade…meaningless or otherwise.

What I was doing was sharing my opinion. If you share it awesome, if you don’t, you don’t.

That does Not mean i am not free to share it.

If you feel Nothing I say applies to your post, that’s your opinion. I Understand. You mentioned that for everyone that chooses to not purchase gems for whatever reasons, that there will be 100’s that will Just continue buying and that their " message" would not be felt.

MY reply was that that is not the point. The Point is… every person needs to ask themselves. “Are the decisions that Anet has made in game design… ( Build diversity, or lack thereof) worth me..supporting with MY Money?”

I happen to believe that even if no one else agrees with me… and even if I am the Only one to stop, that doesn’t mean i shouldn’t share my dissatisfaction on the forums, explain why I stopped buying gems with real world cash, and express that I myself have stopped buying gems with real world cash on the forums.

Maybe others decide " know what? she has a point." maybe they don’t.

Now.. Just because you disagree with me, doesn’t mean you get to label my opinion a meaningless tirade.

First of all, it is not a tirade, it is me sharing my opinion.

secondly, if it is a response to something you said. That the " message" will not be felt by Anet, because there will be 100’s that will continue buying gems. That doesn’t mean my sharing my opinion is meaningless.

it is pretty relevant to your post, since it is a response to your opinion that " Oh No..you will be alone..No one else agrees with you, and your message will be lost."

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

…..
Engineer is lackluster, and needs to be revamped.

I find it difficult to believe you have played any amount of time (or build variation) on an Engineer if you have that opinion. Basing you opinons on other’s “experiences” or your limited ones makes it an uniformed one. Can Engineer be improved? Of course, all professions could use some “fine tuning”, but the class being “lackluster” is likely more you ‘feelings" about their play-style (that you don’t enjoy) than their actual current state in the game (and you opinion is certainly valid….for you).

Ok, let me correct it.

Engineer seems lackluster for me. In My opinion, it needs to be revamped.
Better?

I wanted to like Engineer. I tried to play one 5 times, and could never take it to level 20, because I enjoyed My mesmer more.

Maybe it’s a matter of playstyle as you suggest. But just because a Class is lackluster in my opinion, doesn’t mean i cannot speak my opinion. And it doesn’t mean it’s ill informed, since the opinion is just that, a personal observation.

After trying to level an Engineer 5 times, and not being able to stay interested enough 5 separate times, I believe I am well informed enough about my own interests, and How the Engineer profession doesn’t seem to be interesting enough for me….

For me to proclaim it lackluster, for me.

So you’re judging a profession on the 1-20 playstyle? That seems a bit premature to me.

A lot of people feel the same way when leveling mesmers.

I am judging a profession On whether or not it is entertaining for me to continue playing it. You may feel i am being pre-mature. But I can only say what is entertaining for me.

I also understand that others may feel the same about mesmers. That is their opinion. They may prefer to play engineers instead. or elementalists. Maybe someone that feels as I do about engineers feels that way about mesmers.

if they said " mesmes are lackluster for me, I have tried to play one 5 times, and cannot get past level 20 with them, because I continue to be drawn to my engineer." I wouldn’t tell them they were being premature in their judgement.

I would accept that their tastes don’t match mine.

All I can say for myself is…that I tried an engineer 5 times, and found Myself Bored. So I stopped playing it, and finally gave up. What is it you find objectionable?

Vayne.8563:

You should look at the post I was replying to before running off on a pointless tirade. People are trying to send a message and saying so. I’m saying the message might not get through. I don’t have a problem with people not spending money in a cash shop for a game they don’t like. I’ve NEVER had a problem with that.

I just don’t think it will make the impression on Anet that some people do.

Not a tirade.. :-) All I am saying is, that just because you feel it’s pointless to stop spending cash on a game, because you feel that they will be adecquately covered by those that keep buying is no reason to say " Oh well, you’ll be alone!"

I understand that tone of voice doesn’t carry across well. But just because I disagree with you, doesn’t make it a " pointless tirade" or any type of tirade.

I am simply saying that if I say " well, not good enough for me to spend My money." I am sharing my opinion , and saying I am backing up my opinion with concrete action… Playing when I feel like it, and not spending real world cash on the game.

Now… if everyone saw things as you do, they would just say " Oh… I’ll never make an impression by myself, may as well buy that 1000 gems with real world cash, even if i think the game could use more diversity, and the game company should include more, because I…by Myself will never make an impression alone"

All I am saying is, that isn’t the way to see things.

What I am saying is..I speaking for myself… am not spending money on Gw2. And One of the reasons is, I disagree that simplifying builds to the Point where the game seems simplistic, is not worth me supporting with My cash. * If more people also agree, and decide on their own…. that they also do not wish to support it… awesome. * but if no one else feels that way, that doesn’t mean I have to just keep paying real world cash for gems.

See Vayne. I said if no one else joins , awesome. But the fact that I..speaking just for myself… am willing to stop spending real world cash for gems, and explain why… maybe others may decide " she has a point."

I understand you are 100 % happy with where the game is, you say somethings bother you, but I know that the bother is not enough for you to change, you are content.

I was speaking more for those and to those that aren’t.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

…..
Engineer is lackluster, and needs to be revamped.

I find it difficult to believe you have played any amount of time (or build variation) on an Engineer if you have that opinion. Basing you opinons on other’s “experiences” or your limited ones makes it an uniformed one. Can Engineer be improved? Of course, all professions could use some “fine tuning”, but the class being “lackluster” is likely more you ‘feelings" about their play-style (that you don’t enjoy) than their actual current state in the game (and you opinion is certainly valid….for you).

Ok, let me correct it.

Engineer seems lackluster for me. In My opinion, it needs to be revamped.
Better?

I wanted to like Engineer. I tried to play one 5 times, and could never take it to level 20, because I enjoyed My mesmer more.

Maybe it’s a matter of playstyle as you suggest. But just because a Class is lackluster in my opinion, doesn’t mean i cannot speak my opinion. And it doesn’t mean it’s ill informed, since the opinion is just that, a personal observation.

After trying to level an Engineer 5 times, and not being able to stay interested enough 5 separate times, I believe I am well informed enough about my own interests, and How the Engineer profession doesn’t seem to be interesting enough for me….

For me to proclaim it lackluster, for me.

Vayne.8563:

Yoh.8469:

Nerelith.7360:

chemiclord.3978:

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Exactly. The thing to ask yourself is… “Do I wish to reward the choices the devs have made?”

If you do then Play anyway you wish… have fun.

If you don’t no one is saying you shouldn’t play. See if this game had a monthly sub, the only options are ." to pay to play, or not to pay to play?"

here ince it’s driven by RMT the choice is simple….

Play and do not pay. Don’t support the RMT. Or, save up gold, and trade that for gems… then use the gems. But just stop paying cash.

Well, I spoke with my wallet.
I decided some time ago to stop playing, and absolutely not give them any of my money, because they don’t deserve it.
While I might poke my head in once in awhile, I see nothing remotely interesting or engaging, just the same old stale rubbish.

And I told em as much when I left. If they can’t sort their crap out, it’s not my duty to convince them, because it’s obvious their not listening unless it’s something they already agree with.

They’ve had all the time in the world to improve build diversity, but they haven’t, and show no signs of doing anymore then the most minimalist maintenance. It’s too far and few between for my money.

And for every guy that leaves like that, there’s another person who buys hundreds of black lion keys a month and complete obscures any message we might be sending.

See this is the thing that you don’t get Vayne. It’s Not about " sending a message" or “staging a protest”.

It doesn’t matter that for each of us that doesn’t buy a Black lion key, there are 100’s that buy 100’s.

It’s about us deciding for ourselves." Is this the type of company I am going to support with MY Money?"

Just because 100’s do, doesn’t mean I have to as well. I can say " sorry, Not good enough for me to support with My cash." has Nothing to do with " staging a movement" and hoping others follow.

It’s about me asking myself. " Is this good enough for ME, to support with MY cash?"

If it is, then great, if it isn’t then the only option that make’s sense is for me, to stop financially supporting what I myself don’t feel deserves my cash.

If others feel the same, awesome. if they don’t…No skin off My nose.

I don’t need " The masses" to approve, or agree.

I am capable of making my own decisions, and living by them alone. No need for “The Hive Mind” to approve.

chemiclord.3978:

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Exactly. The thing to ask yourself is… “Do I wish to reward the choices the devs have made?”

If you do then Play anyway you wish… have fun.

If you don’t no one is saying you shouldn’t play. See if this game had a monthly sub, the only options are ." to pay to play, or not to pay to play?"

here ince it’s driven by RMT the choice is simple….

Play and do not pay. Don’t support the RMT. Or, save up gold, and trade that for gems… then use the gems. But just stop paying cash.

chemiclord.3978:

I THINK what he was trying to get at is that if you compared the “meta” that the community demanded, that GW1’s added diversity really only came through by having healer and tank roles.

IF that’s what he was trying to say, I don’t entirely agree. There WAS more viable builds in GW1, even if you wanted to compare solely DPS meta. Not THAT many more (you’re probably talking 3 or 4 per class in GW1 as opposed to 1 or 2 in GW2), but there was more.

But at the same time, it does seem like a few people in this thread are comparing ALL the potential builds you COULD roll with in GW1 (no matter how ineffective they might be), and comparing them solely to the accepted meta in GW2 (ignoring that you could run several less effective builds and gear if you wanted to in this game as well).

That seems a little bit of apples to oranges, but it really doesn’t change the overall point. There WAS more diversity in GW1… the argument seems to focus on a matter of degree.

And you would be wrong. I am simply comparing viable builds In Guild Wars to viable builds in Gw2. And excluding tank, and healer builds from Guild wars, that knows how to do tank, and healing, simply because gw2’s meta doesn’t have tank, and healer builds is really Not quite fair to Guild Wars.

MY position is, that if you look at all the viable builds in Guild Wars… including tank, and Healer builds, and compare them to all viable Gw2 builds. ( is it Guild Wars’ fault that gw2 cannot do tank, and healer by game design?) then Guild Wars still has more build Diversity.

My second point is, that the build diversity in Guild Wars changes How the player actually plays his character. There is Not Just diversity in what skills you take, what sub-class you take, what elites you take…How you trait your character 9 trait lines vs 5. The fact that those trait lines REALLY change how your skills work…unlike gw2. " when you steal you get vigor…..(yawn).

ALL these things mean that when you change out 2 or 3 skills On your loadout you drastically change How you play your character.

The situational nature of most of Guild Wars’ skills meand you needed a dynamic build set up that changed based on the situation.

Does Gw2 have this?,….Not as much. Therefore it’s not as diverse.

Guild Wars is Three dimensional chess. Gw2 is Tic-tac-toe.

Some people don’t like chess. Some people do.

hannah mee.7925:

Take the GW1 metagame and then remove everything that isn’t even remotely part of the GW2 vision and you have about the same size of build diversity.

So your Position is…. “Take Guild Wars and it’s awesome build diversity, remove all the skills, so that it is the same as Gw2 ,… and it will be the same as Gw2 in terms of build diversity” ??

Umm that is called the Mathematical law of identity.

A = A

Obviously, if you remove all parts of Guild Wars that are not in Gw2 it will be equally diverse.

No one is arguing that if you remove all that extra build diversity that Guild Wars has…that it will no longer be more diverse than Gw2.

We are saying that if you leave both games as is…. Guild Wars has more build diversity.

maha.7902:

It’s not reliant on the gear at all, the gear just amplifies the effect of the bonuses that dps builds offer. This is why if berserker gear was to be nerfed to the point that it was actually bad, we would just use what was now the new highest dps gear. Nerfing berserker would literally solve nothing. Then again, ‘solve’ implies there was a problem in the first place.

There is a problem. A game that lacks build diversity lacks replay value. Guild Wars had build diversity as a core part of the gaming experience, which is why it is still around 8 years later.

If Anet doesn’t inject real build diversity it is basically shooting itself in the foot.

I agree nerfing Berserker gear is not the answer. The answer is to boost the other parts of the game so that they are as effective.

This game needs to Look at the other 2 legs of it’s Trinity stool which are out of balance because they are weaker.

Support, and Control.

I know. This game isn’t supposed to have a trinity? I beg to differ, look up the youtube. " WTF No trinity" And you will see this game is supposed to have a trinity.

But when damage suffices… why bother with anything else? If damage suffices, the game is one dimensional at best.

Obsidian.1328:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Obsidian.1328:

It doesn’t have to be that way. I mean look at Star Citizen. Robertson’s initial goal was what, 500k in crowdfunding? It’s now at about 50 million. And space sims aren’t exactly mainstream.

All I’m saying is there are ways around the “meta” for bankrolling these games. I have no idea if SC will be any good, but the amount of people willing to throw money at a game that doesn’t(seem to) cater to greedy investors should tell you something.

There’s always a choice, even if that choice is don’t play any of them.

So you think if Chris Roberts (not Reobertson…) name wasn’t on this thing it would have been successful at all? There are a LOT of well off video gamers that cut their teeth on Wing Commander and kind of worship the guy (even after that horrid Movie he got talked into). I loved the series, but I’m not giving the guy $100 up front….

That’s odd…didn’t GW1 ANet have some of the most loyal fans in the industry?

The Arenanet that launched Guild Wars had the most loyal fans in the Industry and it was well earned loyalty.

This Anet? Not sure it’s the same as they old Anet. If the old Anet ran Guild wars the way that this one runs gw2, it would not have earned the loyalty it did.

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

i snip the rest because i am tired on explaining the same thing over and over and not getting trough, changing the subject to benefit your own argument is a sign i can’t argue with you.
however, i think i owe a simple explanation on what the problem is with engi’s.

That we cant use and swap all weapons at once hinders freedom too. That we cannot access all utility skills at the same time is also a disadvantage but they’re disadvantages that make sense. Why is it okey for ele to have no ability to swap but not okey for engineer? doesnt the same argument apply to both? The real only difference between Ele and Engineer is essentially if you choose kits the utility skill you’ll have access to are chosen for you. As a plus though even if you choose a regular utility you’ll get access to an extra skill.

an elementalist uses the F keys to switch elements, this means it has a weapon swap.
the engineer uses a skill to get the same, however, it doesn’t give you 4 skill sets and uses a skill slot to use.
so to put it simple, the the engineer needs to sacrifice a skill slot to get weapon swap, the engineer doesn’t and get 2X more sets.
THAT is the issue i am faced with, THAT’S the the flaw in the engineer.
if, like i already stated, the kits can be slotted in the F keys the problem would be solved.
as long as that isn’t done an engineer needs weapon swap, it’s only fair.

In anycase should every class work exactly the same and offer the same exact benefits and costs? I Feel it makes the game a lot more interesting when each class has its own way to do things. Its impossible for every class to make everyone happy even if they’re exact copies of each other mechanic wise. Just like you might skip a class cause it doesnt fit your play style whats wrong with skipping a class because you dont like its mechanics?

so because a profession or two is made wrong i have to be ok with it, i am so glad you’re not a game dev.
beside, you’re taking this argument way out of proportion, not even relevant to the subject.

But the engineer has no cooldown on swaps, where as the elementalist has a cooldown on attunements.

In my opinion, the lack of cooldowns is not really a game changer. I rather have the 4 attunements, because you can put " on swap" sigils on an elementalist weapon, and NOT have to “waste” a utility slot to get the weapon swap.

Engineer is lackluster, and needs to be revamped.

Oniyui.8279:

Forcing players to cut skills from their build and make choices neither strips diversity nor creates simplicity. Developers streamlining abilities into fewer core choices for each profession eliminates redundancy.

There’s still a ton of complexity and diversity that players fail to recognize.

That may be true, but it is still not as diverse as Guild Wars.

Corpus Christi.2057:

Just like someone else’s said here already, two different teams under the name “ArenaNet” created GW1 and GW2.

The times when the MMO games were complex, diversified and demanding are over, I’m afraid. The sooner you realise that, the better for you. To mention a few, Lineage 2, Guild Wars 1 and WoW ( at the beginning ).

Nowadays, it’s all about simplicity and addressing the widest group of customers possible ( hence GW2’s lack of diversity, few skills, worthless elite skills and other things you complain about ). Especially when we talk about non-sub fee games as still, some of the sub-based games, do have a tiny bit of “eloquence”, e.g. WildStar which is more demanding than GW2, but the graphics make it unbearable for me.

Cheers

Lack of sub fees is irrelevant. Guild Wars also lacked sub fees. And they still managed to provide a game with greater depth, replayability, variety, and diversity. For lower end machines.

What has changed then? Not the ability of the company to provide a similar experience.

I am very sure that Anet could provide us with an upgrade to Guild Wars that had it’s depth, replayability, variety, and diversity.

Why don’t they? Because today’s gamers are content with whatever sub-standard schlock the gaming companies release.

It’s Ironic, there used to be a time when there were LESS choices, Under those conditions one would assume that game studios could say " Give them ..just about enough to be entertained…where they gonna go?"

And yet, games pre- WoW were in general MORE diverse.

Game companies will not give us quality if we do not demand it. Unfortunately Most of today’s gamers are content with sub-standard games. So gaming companies in general will give their customers what their customers show they will pay for. Today’s gamers are willing to accept any excuse even if it means putting up with a sub-par game, so why would gaming companies give us anything else?

I blame gamers. Gamers aren’t likely to vote with their walletds, so companies keep going cha-ching… as players Mouth off about sub-standard games On the forums.

Maybe that’s why they run forums? To get us to think we are being effective by venting…as we keep handing over our CC ?

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Nerelith.7360:

Im Mudbone.1437:

There was a time all you could have were 3 heroes and then add 4 henchmen, PERIOD.

And the game changed. the thing is, Just because Vayne knows How the game was at a particular point, and refers to that time, but doesn’t seem to recognize that later on there were more mercs added. It Kind of seems as if he is not fully cognizant of the game as it is now. I can say " I know How the game is today…I remember when all you could have was 3 heroes and 4 henchmen"

That doesn’t demonstrate any current or recent knowledge, it does show knowledge of the game , at the time when his information was current.

But it also shows that he seems to have a tendency to spin, and temporize, and back-peddle, and explain..when caught on a point where he shows ignorance, he says " well, I wasn’t REALLY ignorant., I just chose to NOT discuss what you are talking about."

Does Not quite show knowledge, although it DOES seem to show a tendency to cover up what might be ignorance.

Or maybe he Just updates his knowledge from what he reads others post?

So, I assume you still play GW? I still do, best game made, better than GW2 anyway, in so many ways IMO.

I decided to go back to playing Guild Wars yes. I don’t own the Most recent expansion at the moment No. But I do enjoy that I can theorycraft to My heart’s content.

Sometimes I play well, sometimes it takes some rethinking. But while Gw2, may have tried to simplify the game to appeal to a more casual playerbase, I believe they went too far.

As I have said, Guild wars may have been 3d chess on an 8×8×8 grid, but Gw2 is tic-tac-toe.

I agree with you. I think they went too far too. But I think it will change over time. Anet is never fast with those types of changes.

I will be honest with you. It is my hope, that Anet realizes that this game is too simple. It is insulting to casual gamers to say that they had to simplify the trait system, so that the casual gamers would not make themselves sub-par.

In most endeavors there is an understanding that the new player will not be great, but that greatness is possible as time passes, and experience is attained. The bar is not lowered so that this player feels good about himself, the bar is supposed t remain as is, and then you give them the tools to improve, or help them improve. Then when achievements are attained they are real, and concrete.

I remember there used to be a TV show in Puerto Rico when i was growing up… it was a kid’s tv show. And the host would at one point have some kind of race between 2 children from the audience. After the race, he would raise the hand of the winner and annouce…" The Winner!" and then raise the hand of the Kid that came in second, in a field of 2. He would announce " The almost winner."

I am Not saying that if you cannot theorycraft that makes you a loser. I am saying that if you cannot theorycraft you should be allowed to die, until you improve or give up.

What should not be done, is have the game simplified so that you do not feel bad about dieing, because suddenly nothing poses a challenge.

I Am not saying gw2 should be " For the hardcore!" ( Sorry, The Blood elf in me demanded it:P) but Neither should it be a game that is so simplified where one has to STRIVE hard and work to make a crappy build.

Yes, Bicycles have training wheels, but if you never remove them you never learn to ride a bicycle, yoiu Just always know how to ride a tricycle.

Anet has given everyone trycicles, so that those that cannot ride without the training wheels off don’t feel bad.

If I were the casual players that these decisions were made to accomodate, I would feel insulted. Then again..chances are the casual that this game was simplified for, probably thinks Anet did them a favor.

Im Mudbone.1437:

Nerelith.7360:

Im Mudbone.1437:

There was a time all you could have were 3 heroes and then add 4 henchmen, PERIOD.

And the game changed. the thing is, Just because Vayne knows How the game was at a particular point, and refers to that time, but doesn’t seem to recognize that later on there were more mercs added. It Kind of seems as if he is not fully cognizant of the game as it is now. I can say " I know How the game is today…I remember when all you could have was 3 heroes and 4 henchmen"

That doesn’t demonstrate any current or recent knowledge, it does show knowledge of the game , at the time when his information was current.

But it also shows that he seems to have a tendency to spin, and temporize, and back-peddle, and explain..when caught on a point where he shows ignorance, he says " well, I wasn’t REALLY ignorant., I just chose to NOT discuss what you are talking about."

Does Not quite show knowledge, although it DOES seem to show a tendency to cover up what might be ignorance.

Or maybe he Just updates his knowledge from what he reads others post?

So, I assume you still play GW? I still do, best game made, better than GW2 anyway, in so many ways IMO.

I decided to go back to playing Guild Wars yes. I don’t own the Most recent expansion at the moment No. But I do enjoy that I can theorycraft to My heart’s content.

Sometimes I play well, sometimes it takes some rethinking. But while Gw2, may have tried to simplify the game to appeal to a more casual playerbase, I believe they went too far.

As I have said, Guild wars may have been 3d chess on an 8×8×8 grid, but Gw2 is tic-tac-toe.

Im Mudbone.1437:

There was a time all you could have were 3 heroes and then add 4 henchmen, PERIOD.

And the game changed. the thing is, Just because Vayne knows How the game was at a particular point, and refers to that time, but doesn’t seem to recognize that later on there were more mercs added. It Kind of seems as if he is not fully cognizant of the game as it is now. I can say " I know How the game is today…I remember when all you could have was 3 heroes and 4 henchmen"

That doesn’t demonstrate any current or recent knowledge, it does show knowledge of the game , at the time when his information was current.

But it also shows that he seems to have a tendency to spin, and temporize, and back-peddle, and explain..when caught on a point where he shows ignorance, he says " well, I wasn’t REALLY ignorant., I just chose to NOT discuss what you are talking about."

Does Not quite show knowledge, although it DOES seem to show a tendency to cover up what might be ignorance.

Or maybe he Just updates his knowledge from what he reads others post?

Vayne.8563:

You can say anything you want about the game being or not being dead. If it was alive, Anet wouldn’t have put it on life support. No upgrades except bug fixes isn’t a living game.

Just wanted to focus on this a moment. The way to tell if a game is dead is a simple one. Are the servers up?

City of Heroes as much as I loved it, is dead. The servers were shut down. Star Wars Galaxies, as Much as I loved that game, is dead. The servers are shut down.

That is the definition of a dead MMO, the servers are shut down.

This is How Business works. Anyone with even a little business knowledge understands. An MMO is dead the moment that continued operations cannot be justified by the level of profit attained…and said operation expences can be seen to lead to greater profit if invested in some other business vehicle.

If the investors look at Guild Wars, and decide that continuing to invest in the operation of the game, as little as it is… is not justified by the poor profits realized by it, and the only decision that makes business sense is to shut down the servers…then it is dead.

Until then it’s alive. How do we know Guild Wars is alive? the Servers are up. Whether or not it is THRIVING, can be debated. Whether or not it is FLOURISHING, can be debated. Whether or not it is in decline….can be debated.

But you cannot say it is dead.

Anyone with a business education, can tell you that if they know of a way to use the money invested to operate Guild Wars that would realize greater profits, the only correct business decision is to shut down the Guild Wars servers, and re-invest the assets elsewhere.

As long as we see The Guild Wars servers up and running, we know the game is not dead.

Business 101.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

Just a question here…

If you didn’t like the meta crowd in GW1, why did you bother trying to party with them?

I didn’t myself. I finished Proph with hench, solo. Finished Factions, NF and EoTN and Legendary Vanq with Hero/Hench. Finished DoA and other stuff with 7 Mercs. That did not mean I was unaware of LFG chat, speed clear LFG chat, and idiot statements like “show stones”. And I’ve had 12 years of mmo and min/maxer meta experience and observation.

ah.. oops. wasn’t addressed to me. oh bother.

But when I played Guild Wars 1, you could only bring 3 heroes, period. No way you can convince me you soloed end game content with 3 heroes.

Vayne I still play Guild Wars and you can have 7 heroes now, been that way about a year or two before GW2 came out.

Yes, thank you I know that. Let’s put it in perspective. Guild Wars 1 came out eight years ago. For the last couple of years, after most people had done everything. after they annouced Guild Wars 2 and introduced the Hall of Monuments, they added the 7 hero thing. By then most people the bulk of the early playerbase had been playing for five years.

Yes, at the end of the life of the game, they made it so you could use 7 heroes. I’m not sure how that helped me during the five years I was playing. I still had all the problems I said.

I’m not sure what you guys are arguing with me for here. They introduced 7 heroes at a time when the Guild Wars 1 population was getting so low it was much harder to find parties for stuff. I know, because I was there.

Stop pronouncing the game Dead. Also, I corrected you, again, because what you spout off about your knowledge of GW isn’t correct, again. And as always, when caught showing your lack of knowledge, you backpedal, twist words, and scramble.

You know. You were there. Ah, OK. And didn’t know you could have 7 heroes till today. riiiight. Quote, from you, 12 hrs ago:

“But when I played Guild Wars 1, you could only bring 3 heroes, period. No way you can convince me you soloed end game content with 3 heroes.”

That doesn’t mean I didn’t know. If you want to log into Guild Wars and see my eight mercenaries, I’ll be happy to introduce you to them. I just assumed you were one of the people who did that stuff when the rest of us did it, not when the game was sliding into oblivion.

You can say anything you want about the game being or not being dead. If it was alive, Anet wouldn’t have put it on life support. No upgrades except bug fixes isn’t a living game.

You said

But when I played Guild Wars 1, you could only bring 3 heroes, period.

Sounds like you like to spin, and spin. You are selling but finally, no one is buying. If you are gonna make stuff up…might be a good idea to make it up where you won’t be corrected, and shown to be ignorant… followed by you back-pedalling, temporizing, explaining, you said " 3 heroes, period." as in " End of discussion. "

Except you can play with 7.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Frozen Soil is an example of “situational”. For most of the pve game it wasn’t worth having on a bar. You just shut down the few rezzers encountered.

Wik HM it was a must for me. White Mantle groups had a LOT of rezzers, lots of sigs. Rezzers in Slavers as well.

Edge of Extinction as well. Junk, except for when it was absolutely Golden.. Glints Challenge for one.

There were indeed tons of situational and conditional skills. Was always fun to find that “niche” skill you ignored and never bought was the perfect solution to a problem.

EXACTLY.

The issue is that some people wish to define 60% of Guild wars skills as “useless” and have the rest of us Just go along. Because then they can justify their acceptance of a game mechanic that has too simple a solution to a problem.

The Problem was never " too many useless skills".

The problem was " Too many situational skills that too many players today may NOT know the situation in which to use them."

This is Not a problem with the skills, this is not even a problem with Anet. I mean Anet is only giving players what players show they want.

Too many of today’s players want a simple game… that allows them to ONLY have to think about 2 builds and 3 or 4 weapons…

A simple game that is easy to play and doesn’t require much research. Can’t blame Anet for providing it.

If a Player demands bread and water, he isn’t getting Veal Marsala and Spumanti.