Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I didn’t know that Anet employees could pay bills or buy groceries with in game gold. Who knew.

Unfortunately, there are some who don’t understand how the in-game system works. Because they perceive Gold to have “value”, they incorrectly assume that you can now use this “value” to pay employee salaries, overhead, dividends, etc. At this point, here’s how they see the system:

A = Gold (a virtual currency)
B = Real money (self explanatory)

A = B

Of course this thinking is completely inaccurate.

Just because you misunderstand the concept of economic value, and continue repeating it, doesn’t make it so.

in game gold has economic value. Anet sells it, Anet makes a profit from it’s sale. Anet makes Money from selling gold exactly as Gold sellers make money selling gold.

It seems because they sell you gems for your cash, and then you use gems to buy gold, that you believe falsely that you have not payed real cash for gold.

It is because you have paid Anet real world cash for their in game gold that they sold to you, that they can pay their employees salaries.

yes, Anet buying and selling gold gives in game gold value, which can be then used to pay salaries, and wages, and profits used to disburse to stockholders… just like any other Gold seller makes money from selling Anet’s in game gold against the TOS, Anet also makes Money from selling Gold, except they do it by first selling you gems, which you then use to buy gold.

It seems you still have a hard time understanding this. I hope that you understand it better.

Some people feel that because the price of gems in cash is stable, and fixed, while the exchange between Gems and gold fluctuates, that they are not purchasing something of value. To me this makes no sense.

The fact that the amount of Gold you get when you exchange gems for gold fluctuates does not in any way negate in game gold’s monetary value.

Just because in game gold only exists on Anet’s server doesn’r mean that it lacks value, especially when they sell it for cash, using gems as an intermediate step.

It’s Like If you pay cash for Item A, and exchange Item A for Item B, you paid cash for Item B.

I found the following in The Encyclopedia Britannica It is accepted as a source by many.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/602836/transitive-law

transitive law, in mathematics and logic, statement that if A bears some relation to B and B bears the same relation to C, then A bears it to C. In arithmetic, the property of equality is transitive, for if A = B and B = C, then A = C. Likewise is the property inequality if the two inequalities have the same sense: that is, if A is greater than B (i.e., A > and B > C, then A > C; and if A is less than B (i.e., A < and B < C, then A < C. An example of an intransitive relation is: if B is the daughter of A, and C is the daughter of B, then C is not the daughter of A; and of a nontransitive relation: if A loves B, and B loves C, then A may or may not love C.

These figures are from Gw2spidy:

$1.25 = 100 Gems, … 100 gems = 9 gold 85 silver.

By using the mathematical transitive law of identity….

$1.25 = 9 g 85 silver.

Therefore In game Gold has value.

I include it here, since you had a hard time understanding how if A = B, and B=C, then A=C, is a mathematical law, and Not a fallacy.

If you still feel it is a fallacy, you may wish to get in touch with The Encyclopedia Britannica to correct their entry.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

The gems aren’t created out of thin air. I buy gems – I trade them for gold out of a pool. When you trade gold for gems it comes out of a pool. That is the reason that the price of gems-gold has gone up since launch – more people are putting gold into the exchange than buying gems with cash. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you are a paying customer if you don’t buy gems.

All players that paid for the game are paying customers by definition.

Whether subsequent to their purchase they paid for gems with cash, or gold, they are paying customers unless they recieved the game as a gift, and then the person that bought the game for them, was a paying customer.

Then you can say " I am a continuing financial supporter, because I bought gems with cash." That does not mean that players that bought the game and have not bought any gems since, cease to be paying customers of Anet. They BOUGHT the game… and paid Anet for the game, they got the game in exchange. THIS alone makes EVERYONE a paying customer.

The Irony here is, …I paid cash for gems also for some time. But I never thought it a reason to look down with disdain on people that bought gems with gold.

See As I keep explaining. EVERYONE that BOUGHT the game, is a paying customer because they bought the game. If someone is a non-paying customer it is people that somehow have found a way to play the game without paying for the game at all.

Aside from this, there are people that continue to support the game with their gem purchases.

Some pay for the gems with cash. Others pay for the gems with gold. BOTH groups continue to support the game.

I have 1 question. Why do some people that buy gems with cash hold the players that buy gems with gold with such disdain? I almost sense that some players are thinking “leeches” as they say " non-paying" customer.

Or they hold themselves to some loftier plain in their own minds… as if they were VIP’s because they buy gems with cash?

Fact, you are important to Anet, so is the player that buys gems with gold.

See when I say this I can sense the ire of some Gem buyers… as i dare to compare you with players that also bought gems that support this game. Gems purchased with gold, but purchased nonetheless. So:

Why the disdain for gem buyers that buy gems with gold?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I didn’t know that Anet employees could pay bills or buy groceries with in game gold. Who knew.

Well, since in game gold is sold by Anet whether directly for cash, or indirectly for gems, that are sold for cash. When a Player buys Gold with gems, that he bought with cash, he helps Anert realize a profit.

Since Anet realizes a profit from the trade of in game gold, and uses this profit to pay Anet employees salaries… then yes.

You finally understand it. The in game gold is used to generate profit which pays salaries, which can be used to buy groceries, and pay bills.

Behellagh.1468:

I think that’s a side effect of telling people that the exchange contains a finite amount of gems and they aren’t created when you buy them with gold.

Buying with cash creates them.
Using them in the Gem Shop destroys them.
The game was launched with a finite amount in the Exchange (more likely a fixed amount per account added to the exchange when the account is opened).

When player A buys Gems with Cash, he is exchanging Cash which has monetary value, in exchange for Gems which also have monetary value. He is helping Anet at this point realize the Monetary value inherent in gems, because the gems can be exchanged for Virtual Goods and services which have monetary value.

When Player B, buys gems with Gold, he is exchanging Gold which has monetary value, for gems that also have monetary value.

When Player A then uses the gems it bought with cash, to buy Gold, it is helping Anet realize the monetary value inherent in the gold that player B exchanged for the gems he purchased.

Player B has to pay more gold to get 100 Gems, than Player A gets when they buy gold with 100 Gems. The difference between the amount of gold Player B pays, and player A receives, is a source of profit for Anet.

When Player A uses the gems it bought from Anet for cash, and uses those gems to buy gold. This is when Anet realizes the monetary value in the gold Player B sold it. It realizes that value from selling it to player A.

Like if a Merchant buys a Box of Drake’s cakes from the Drake’s Pastry company. And sells it to person A. The fact that the merchant did not get cash from The Drake’s company doesn’t mean it did not receive something that had monetary value. The cakes it paid Drake’s for have monetary value. But THAT value was not realized til it sold those Cakes to Person A.

Player A, buying gold from Anet, sold TO Anet by player B…. helps Anet realize the monetary value inherent in the gold player B sold to Anet for gems.

When player B uses the gems, it uses gems that have monetary value, to purchase Virtual goods and services that have monetary value, that they had acquired as they farmed gold, that has monetary value, when they exchanged that gold for gems.

The short of it.

There are two kinds of Players that play Gw2.

1 Paying customers
2 Non-paying customers.

Now i find it of interest that many players make this dichotomy, since it is the dichotomy of a free2play game. But that is another argument.

I have changed my mind In reading these posts.

I now believe that non-paying customers are players that never bought the game.

Paying customers comprises of players that bought the game.

Then we have Players that bought the game, and make gem store purchases with cash, as another type of paying customer.

We also have players that bought the game, and make gem store purchases with Gold, as another type of paying customer.

The ONLY non-paying customers are players that somehow have found a way to play the game, without buying the game.

Everyone else is a paying customer. Since they paid Anet.

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

I think that’s a side effect of telling people that the exchange contains a finite amount of gems and they aren’t created when you buy them with gold.

Buying with cash creates them.
Using them in the Gem Shop destroys them.
The game was launched with a finite amount in the Exchange (more likely a fixed amount per account added to the exchange when the account is opened).

pretty sure he was misinterpreting what the poster was saying, the poster was refering specifically to the gems in the exchange, and that anet was the middleman for two people exchanging gold and gems, which is basically accurate, and essentially the description and the way any currency exchange system works.

It’s Not that hard to understand. Player A buys Gems with Cash. Player B buys Gems with Gold. Player A uses their Gems to buy gold. Player B uses their Gems to buy a Skin.

What has transpired is…Gold went from Player B to Player A. Gems went from Player A to player B. And Player B used up the gems when they bought the skin.

All Anet did was serve as middle in the transaction, and take off a Bit of profit off each exchange.

It is simple to understand for us, because we accept that the gold that player B uses to buy gems has value.

Brother Grimm.5176:

phys.7689:

Brother Grimm.5176:

So some of you actually believe that GEMS are some sort of commodity that is traded like RL gold? How quaint…..(and seriously delusional).

gems, are just a conversion factor, and means of saying store credit.
you could totally remove gems from the entire process, and call gold to gems gold to store credit.
people need to forget about gems as something special, gems is store credit.

THAT is my point….talking about them being transferred from one player to another like it’s a step in a process that actually happens is just flat out FUD and misrepresents what is the reality of the games economy.

Gems are transferred from one Player to another with Anet being the middle man.

When Player A sells his gold in exchange for gems. And then Player B buys gems with cash, that it then uses to buy Player A’s Gold from Anet, What happened was Gems went from Player B to Player A, gold went from Player A to player B, and Anet stood In the middle making a profit… being intermediary in the deal.

Brother Grimm.5176:

If you state that Anet sells paperclips, they can make them, destroy them, let players trade them but they are NOT a limited resource or something physical that has any use other than to do business with Anet. Thinking of them in any other way is simply inaccurate and taints any other statements that hinge on such assumption.

Just because you assert something, even if fervently, and sincerely believed, does not make it so.

You may choose to not accept it, but the facts are that gems and gold are a valuable commodity for Anet, since Anet is in the business of selling them. Since they have value to Anet, they have value.

Just a thought that occured to me… Smooth Penguin and a few others seem to have latched onto “The User Agreement” as if it were some Kind of trump card.

Cosidering Smooth penguins Legal education I would assume since I have said a few times " it’s a legal position" that would be enough for him to understand what I am saying.

I will assume he does. As for the others trumpeting the " The user agreement" card. All that is, is a defence for Anet..if anything happens to it’s servers that allows for the loss of your gem or gold holdings.

Example.

Player A spends $10,000 in cash to buy Gems. After receiving the gems there through no fault of his own… he loses the gems, whether because there was an ourage… there was a server issue…etc..etc..etc… the sky turned red and the moon rose in the west… the gems went, and are irretrievably lost.

The Player tells Anet.

Anet investigates and reserving the right to not compensate Player A tells him that there is nothing to be done, the gems are gone.

He can say " I Paid $10,000 I want either my gems, or my money."

Now.

Anet MIGHT decide it is best to just pay the guy. Or decide to add the equivalent in gems to his account… but…

The language " Gems have no monetary value and only have entertainment value." is there, so that it can reserve the right to deny Player A’s claim of having a RIGHT to a refund.

They MIGHT grant one, or NOT. That is entirely up to Anet.

THAT is why the User agreement says " Gems have no monetary value."

it’s a legal position, not an economic one. Purely added to the agreement to shield it from lawsuits.

PS: So what I am agreeing to, when I click on the User agreement is that ..Legally, I will Not sue Anet if anything happens to My gems and Gold in game.

I am Not agreeing to some economic nonsense that what has economic monetary value ceases to have it while In My possession even when it does have it in reality.

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

41923kittenelith.7360:

The User agreement does have you agree to non-sense.

The User Agreement is not non-sense. If you don’t agree to the terms, you don’t get to play the game.

The irony is that he agrees with what he thinks is nonsense everytime he plays by accepting it.

Not Ironic. I paid cash for a Game. I enjoy playing the game, and Like 90 % of players that purchased the game, I agree to it, because it gets me in the game.

That doesn’t mean everything in it makes sense. it Just means i have to click it to play and do.

it can say " The Moon is made of Blue cheese, and the sun disappears after 8 PM… Alpha Centauri fits In your back pocket because of magic Wobblie beams coming from Pluto."

Most players don’t Know it’s not there, and Most players don’t care. Which is One reason EULA’s are being argued in courts.

What I agree to when I click the User agreement doesn’r mean I check my brain at the door.

Nonsense is nonsense , even if I agree to it, to play the game I paid for.

PS: it is she, Not he.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

~~~ snip ~~~

On the contrary, my background in business allows me to understand concepts and mechanics such as the Gem Exchange. Because Anet employees have explained how it works, I now know both how and why it works.

Please don’t misunderstand me when I point out your flaws. Because you didn’t realize that players aren’t buying Gems for real money from the Gem Exchange, your whole argument was invalid. And as I stated previously, your misapplied individual feelings of “value” is one of the reasons why you now assume that Gold has some sort of monetary value. I don’t doubt that you value Gold or Gems. I value them too, on a personal level.

Let me try again.

Player A goes to Anet exchanges their gold for gems. Giving Anet more gold for inventory to sell to anyone that wishes to exchange it’s gems that they purchased with cash…for gold.

Player B comes along, and buys… gems. They then exchange those gems for the Gold player A sold Anet.

At THIS Point… Anet realized the monetary value, it had obtained from player A, when Player A sold their gold for gems.

Player B… purchased Gems with cash, that it then exchanged for gold. Player B BOUGHT Gold with Cash.

Gems and Gold have monetary value. The fact that neither can be sold for cash by players does not mean that they suddenly LACK Monetary value.

Since whether in the players Possession or Anet’s, Gems and Gold can potentially BOTH be sold for cash By Anet, they have Monetary value for Anet.

The fact that they have monetary value for anet, means they have monetary value.

PS. Anet DOES make MORE Money eventually when they sell gems to players that purchase them for in game gold, than when they sell them directly to players that pay cash for gems.

In the BEST of all Possible worlds..the situation Anet hopes for is…

Player B buys Gems with Cash, Player A buys Gems with Gold. Player B buys gold with gems… and Player A Buys Gem store Items with gems.

THIS situation gives Anet the greatest value. It has been explained adequately. If you cannot understand it, then… not sure what to say. Anyway… back to lurking.

Essence Snow.3194:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

monetary value still works through transition.

if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.

Which is precisely the reason the definition has “if sold” in it.

Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Yes, when you buy it from Anet it is sold to you.

Definition applies.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.

Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.

The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.

Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.

As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.

You first need to understand economics before you can debate it.

I can forgive you for not understanding how the Gem Exchange or microtransactions work though. This isn’t something that there’s in-game hint or explanations to guide you on the inner workings of such areas. Players like me who either studied business, or have a firm grasp on business practices love to understand unique sales methods such as MMO microtransactions. There’s a psychology involved that defies normal logic, in terms of what an individual values personally, and spending habits. But I digress, my expertise isn’t the reason for this debate. What matters here is that the Gem Store works, and that it helps players who want to exchange in-game Gold for Gem for free.

still trying another experiment in reality alteration through forum hypnosis?

Maybe if he says over and over " you don’t understand economics, you don’t understand economics,…" I’ll forget that I have a better grasp of it than he has.

I think the " I studied business" thing has him convinced that the Business he tudied actually made an impression when economics is discussed in new forms.

Personally, if the business he studied left him with the impression that a EULA can negate value where it exists… Like saying" if you agree to this then that tree that is outside your door is made of air as Long as you are logged in" and it becomes real.. because to play the game you need to agree to it. I Might look into getting my money back.

" The User agreement…the user agreement!!" Like it’s some magic phrase.

We are discussing if a Pentagon has 5 sides. it’s a basic fact of life, that has definitions. And what he fails to realize is that the user agreement can make you agree to it, before you can play the game you paid for…but it cannot re-define what already has a definition.

it cannot redefine Monetary value. And it cannot ipso-facto eliminate monetary value, and then re-assign the item value, Just because it made a person agree to it.

The real world has already defined a pentagon, and a million User agreements cannot redefine it. The real world already defined Monetary value, and Anet’s User agreement cannot redefine it.

PS Just because someone on the internet that is " an anonymous voice" says ’ My expertise." doesn’t mean I have to accept that there is expertise there. I mean..I can say " I am the queen of england." doesn’t make it so. So expertise can be claimed…. and claimed believably, until a person shows a lack of understanding of monetary value, what has it, and what lacks it, then they can say " I studied business…after I studied law." til they are blue in the face….

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

Except the User Agreement doesn’t make you agree to nonsense .. .it’s actually stuff you CAN agree to, so it does have meaning when you say “yes, I agree”.

The User agreement does have you agree to non-sense. It has you agree to the following.

“Things that have economic monetary value do not have any economic monetary value, because that is How we like it.”

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.

Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.

The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.

Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.

As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

Yes it does because buying gold and exchanging gold for gems is NOT the same thing. That’s not just a subtle distinction either. It has RL implications for how they run their business.

Ok, If I Buy 800 gems for $10, and then use the gems to Buy In Game Gold. I Just Bought in game gold for $10.

Two things = to the same thing are = to each other. is a basic law of mathematics.

If A = B, and B= C, then A = C.

If you are having a hard time understanding that, maybe trying to explain Monetary value is a bit ambitious, even for me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

You need to read closer before you try to correct me.

If Anet has no in game gold to sell, then many of the people buying gems with real world cash will stop buying gems with real world cash.

Straw-man arguments are easy to demolish, but still do not deal with the real argument. Nice try though.

PS Just because you type in bold doesn’t make what you typed in bold true.

/sigh

You seem to be misunderstanding your own posts. Here’s your quote:

Nerelith.7360:

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

1) Gold is NOT the only reason why I buy Gems.

2) Anet already deposited a finite amount of Gold and Gems into the Gem Exchange before the game started.

3) Anet makes money buy selling your Gems to access exclusive content.

Edit – pay close attention to your very first sentence

You need to pay closer attention, I never said you. I said Many Players buy gems to trade them in for gold

Yes, Anet placed a limited pool of Gold for sale when the game started.

No…Just because there is no " Buy Gold" Button doesn’t mean they are not selling gold.

If you are are saying that " they sell GEMS for cash… that you can EXCHANGE for Gold… but that doesn’t mean " They sell Gold for cash"….

Not sure what I can say to you, since it appears you are being difficult now just to be difficult.

The " you" in the post you quoted is common english accepted useage of " you" in general…can also be seen as " they sell people." or " they sell many players." and does Not have to refer to YOU directly.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

Except that you can use gems to buy in game gold that has value.

Even the Federal government thought so enough to look into the issue.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/congressional-report-says-you-may-owe-taxes-on-your-wow-income/

Another mistake you’re making is that you assume that our government representatives know what they’re doing in the first place. This idea is silly, and is doomed to fail in any economy. I already pay taxes on my Gems that I buy. I’m not paying taxes on anything else.

My point is, even the government is thinking that there is value In in game holdings if there is a Potential that said Holdings can be turned into actual real world income.

Not the crux of my argument, but simply pointing to it as a " see I’m Not the only one." and you discounting it by saying " Oh well, what do they know?" doesn’t make the fact that even the government is looking into it" a valid supporting argument

yes you can discount it, that doesn’t make it go away. it’s Like the ostrich with it’s head In the sand that thinks the threat is gone because they cannot see it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You said before that Games with Microtransactions have only two types of players " Paying customers" and " Non-paying customers."

You are 100 % right, I can agree with you on this.

The problem is, you misunderstand who a paying customer is, mainly because Gw2 was released AFTER the “Extra-credits” episode you saw was aired.

There are Paying Customers and Non-paying customers.

Non-paying customers bought the box, and never made a single purchase off the gem store.

We agree on that.

Paying customers Bought the box, and buy items off the gem-store, with cash, and in-game-gold.

Both are paying customers.

The cash buyers buy gems with their real world cash. That is when Anet gets their real world cash.

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

If no one bought gems with in game gold the price paid for gems with cash would climb so high , that it would be so prohibitive, that the people that purchase gems with cash, simply to buy gold would stop buying gold, which meas eventually they would stop buying gems with cash.

THIS is the reason Stockholders care, that players buy gems for in game gold, it gives their company a product to sell.

Saying that Anet only sells Gems is … well, trying to be charitable… ignorant.

Anet sells it’s Virtual Goods and Services and offers them so they can be paid for in different ways. Some pay for them with cash, some pay for them with in game gold. Anet also makes Money by being the Middle man between players In in game gold exchanges.

last example. Imagine 2 players come to Anet One has $10,000 they want to exchange for 10,000 gems, but ONLY if they can Immediately, and Instantly exchange it for 10,000 Gold. And wants to be taken care of first. If Anet takes care of another customer first he will walk away.

Problem: In this example Anet only has 1,000 gold.

The Other comes to Anet with 10,000 gold that it wants to exchange for 5,000 gems. The problem is, he also wishjes to be seen first, and if Anet sees anyone before him, he will simply walk away with his Gold.

Whom do you think Anet will see first? telling the other " have a Nice day, see you tomorrow?"

It’s fairly obvious. You cannot sell what you do not have. In Game gold is inventory. Just because it has not realized it’s value by being sold does not mean it has no value. Imagine if you had an inventory of 20,000 sweaters that sold for $19.99 each and told the IRS that those sweaters had no value because they had not been sold yet?

hmmm…. Something to think about

Back to lurking

Ok, I see the confusion. When I say “paying customers”, I’m referring to players like myself who purchase Gems. “Non-paying customers” paid once, but do not buy Gems.

Now onto your other misunderstanding. Gold -> Gem exchanges have no monetary value. Period. Anet makes no money from players exchanging in-game Gold for Gems. Why is this so hard to understand? If a player exchanged their Gems for Gold, those Gems now in the pot are not resold to players like me. The Gem Exchange is separate from buying Gems with real money. Gems purchased with real money are created out of thin air.

They make their money from selling you in game gold. Not Gems.

You need to read closer before you try to correct me.

If Anet has no in game gold to sell, then many of the people buying gems with real world cash will stop buying gems with real world cash.

Straw-man arguments are easy to demolish, but still do not deal with the real argument. Nice try though.

You are a paying customer, because you buy gems with in game gold. I am a paying customer because I pay for gems with in world cash that Anet then has to sell, and realizes it’s profit when it turns around and sells the gold I sold them, to players that use their gems to purchase gold.

Without me, Anet has no product to sell to them, and they then stop buying gems with Gold.

With me, they have an inventory of product to sell to players that buy gems with cash, that they then use to buy in game gold.

The Non-paying customer does not buy gems with cash or with in game gold.
PS Just because you type in bold doesn’t make what you typed in bold true.

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

Except that you can use gems to buy in game gold that has value.

Even the Federal government thought so enough to look into the issue.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/congressional-report-says-you-may-owe-taxes-on-your-wow-income/

You said before that Games with Microtransactions have only two types of players " Paying customers" and " Non-paying customers."

You are 100 % right, I can agree with you on this.

The problem is, you misunderstand who a paying customer is, mainly because Gw2 was released AFTER the “Extra-credits” episode you saw was aired.

There are Paying Customers and Non-paying customers.

Non-paying customers bought the box, and never made a single purchase off the gem store.

We agree on that.

Paying customers Bought the box, and buy items off the gem-store, with cash, and in-game-gold.

Both are paying customers.

The cash buyers buy gems with their real world cash. That is when Anet gets their real world cash.

The Gold-> Gem converters paid for their Gems with Gold, which Anet now can sell to others In exchange for gems. Gems that the cash to gem purchasers bought with cash. THAT is the moment Anet gets it’s real world cash off a gold -> gem conversion.

The ONLY reason Anet has Gold to sell for gems to players that bought gems with cash is because a Player sold it’s Gold for gems.

If no one bought gems with in game gold the price paid for gems with cash would climb so high , that it would be so prohibitive, that the people that purchase gems with cash, simply to buy gold would stop buying gold, which meas eventually they would stop buying gems with cash.

THIS is the reason Stockholders care, that players buy gems for in game gold, it gives their company a product to sell.

Saying that Anet only sells Gems is … well, trying to be charitable… ignorant.

Anet sells it’s Virtual Goods and Services and offers them so they can be paid for in different ways. Some pay for them with cash, some pay for them with in game gold. Anet also makes Money by being the Middle man between players In in game gold exchanges.

last example. Imagine 2 players come to Anet One has $10,000 they want to exchange for 10,000 gems, but ONLY if they can Immediately, and Instantly exchange it for 10,000 Gold. And wants to be taken care of first. If Anet takes care of another customer first he will walk away.

Problem: In this example Anet only has 1,000 gold.

The Other comes to Anet with 10,000 gold that it wants to exchange for 5,000 gems. The problem is, he also wishjes to be seen first, and if Anet sees anyone before him, he will simply walk away with his Gold.

Whom do you think Anet will see first? telling the other " have a Nice day, see you tomorrow?"

It’s fairly obvious. You cannot sell what you do not have. In Game gold is inventory. Just because it has not realized it’s value by being sold does not mean it has no value. Imagine if you had an inventory of 20,000 sweaters that sold for $19.99 each and told the IRS that those sweaters had no value because they had not been sold yet?

hmmm…. Something to think about

Back to lurking

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

dude, it has nothing to do with real or fake currency.
its has to do with conversions and the tax withing the conversion.

let me illustrate this more carefully.
the only way in which gems are created, is via someone trading cash for gems.
every single gem store item must be obtained with gems.
gold->gem traders are not creating gems, they are trading for them.
gem->gold buyers are trading for gold, not creating gold.

there is a tax on this trade.

so. lets look at the item that is purchased with gems, and trace the paper trail to see how much money must be paid to anet, to bring this item into existence.
i will use all the current actual values for this illustration as cited here
http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

for sake of simplicity, lets assume the item is 100 gems in cost, its a top hat.
playerA wants a top hat, he trades in his gold for gems.
“100 gems costs 12 g 61 s to buy.”
so he trades 12 gold and 61s to AnettradeBankerMan for 100 gems he gets top hat
but, now AnettradeBankerMan now has 12 gold 61 silver in he can now sell to Player B who wants gold. (note without player A trading, he wouldnt have this gold to sell)

So how much money can he get from Player B for his newly stocked gold?
“1 g costs 0.14 USD to buy through gems.”
he can get 14 cents for every gold, by multiplication we can now see how much was paid to anet corporation in order for this top hat to come into existence.

.14 times 12.61 = 1.76$

so yes the item is paid for by player B, but player B is essentially paying more to bring the same item into existence compared to if he had bought it direct, for 1.25 because of the taxes on gold/gem conversion.

realize that the player who buys gold, is actually trading with another player (through anet currnency exchange) since anet takes a tax, the items created through this trade actually cost more.
just follow the money if you dont believe me.
pick any item, see how much gold must be traded to anet to bring the item into existence, then see how much anet can sell that gold to a different player for. that shows you how much money anet made off that item.

The amount of money ArenaNet makes is exclusively based on the number of gems purchased, not on what was spent in the gem store.

Every single gem store transaction is 100% irrelevant because they are made with currencies that have no value.

Only the initial purchase of gems nets ArenaNet any actual currency, how you use those gems once they are purchased is of no concern whatsoever.

You’re doing a bunch of math that means nothing because you’ve missed the main point. Anything times gold or anything times gems is always equal to 0 because they have no value, just as everything you can purchase in the gem store has no value.

Wow. you guys. really dont get it.
it doesnt matter if gems or gold is real or fake pretend, all that matters is that people are willing to pay money for it.
thats all that matters, people are willing to pay money for it.
if a company can sell paper clips for 14 cents, that means every paperclip is worth 14 cents.

anet is essentially giving players store credit in exchange for paper clips at a value of 10 cents, and selling the paper clips to customers at a value of 14 cents.

it doesnt matter if paper clips arent real money, all that matters is someone is willing to pay for it.

kitten , now i see why so many people get ripped off, you throw some pointless conversion factors, and they can no longer see what prices mean.

You can lead a horse to water…

Sometimes people rather be right than knowledgeable. Secondly, some people have put their pride on the line, they mocked knowledge, so even if they realize they are wrong, they cannot at this point give up the fight. They feel that they have gone too far to just say " you know what… you have a point." It’s why i gave up the argument. One can only have a meaningful discussion when the other side listens. And I realized that some players On this forum are simply repeating their flawed thinking over and over as if it were fact, calling it fact, and being encouraged cause others are also suffering from the same flawed thinking.

They gain inspiration in numbers even when the numbers are wrong.

I think someone even mentioned Flat-earthers. I myself refrained from making such a comment since it would be insulting. Not someone’s fault if they are ignorant about what value means. On the other hand I am sure that they will not point to this post and comment about How Ironic it is, since in their opinion, I have no clue what I am talking about. Which only makes me laugh… The Irony compounds. Kind of Like… Interest.

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement cannot contravene the science of economics. It’s a legal position, not an economic one. We will have to agree to disagree.

It also applies economically, since Gems don’t have monetary value, nor does Time.

That is your opinion. You are welcome to believe it. That doesn’t make your opinion fact.

Behellagh.1468:

This is another case where the colloquial definition of a word has a very different meaning from how it’s used in a particular subject matter. The same way in science the Theory means a widely tested and accepted fact when theory to the public means a conjecture and supposition.

When Smooth uses monetary value it’s in the very specific definition of Economics. Gems in and of themselves have no value and therefore can’t be used to as a transitory property to equate cash that has a monetary value to in-game gold earned by playing the game.

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

The problem is, he is entitled to his opinion, it doesn’t agree with mine, so be it. he is Not entitled to his own facts.

Just because he does Not believe that in game gold has monetary value, does Not mean it doesn’t.

If a teenager sweeps the front of my garage so I can move my car, and i happen to own a restaurant, and tell him " Look I’m tapped for cash, but here’s a coupon worth a $500 meal at my restaurant. As long as he spends it at my restaurant that coupon is worth $500 because someone else would have to spend $500 in cash to obtain the same meal.

Either Virtual Goods and Services have real world value or they don’t.

My opinion is, they do. As such any effort expended that can then be exchanged for them, also has real world value.

Smooth Penguin’s opinion is that Virtual Goods and Services lack real world value, so unless it is real world cash that is being exchanged then it does NOT have real world value.

We disagree, our opinions are not the same. That doesn’t make his opinions.. facts.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

I may be spending my recreational time playing Gw2. It may be time I do not assign any value to at the present moment. But I may in the future make decisions that suddenly retro-actively assign value to that time, even if at the time I Myself did not.

Example 1.

from real life.

A lawyer while in switzerland on vacation skiing has an accident, ends up in the hospital. While there he picks up a guitar to pass the time, and starts taking lessons while there, and then at home. He finds he has a feeling for the guitar. He keeps playing it as a hobby, his profession is law. Eventually he decides to try to use his talents at singing and guitar to earn a living. he becomes an international singing sensation.

The action of learning to play guitar was one he decided on for recreational purposes. At the time it was time spent on a hobby not a Job, and yet his decision, and actions that led to him selling records.. rendered that past time, learning to play guitar, an economic monetary one.

Future decisions and actions can make past time ..engaged in recreational activities have real monetary value.

Example 2. I Play Gw2. Purely for fun, relaxation, and recreation. Then in a year, I start a website, and write a pamphlet " make Gold In Gw2!!!" I sell it for $29 per download. I suddently am making money from what used to be a past time, the experiences I acquired in game…for pure recreation , now have a monetary value. That I Played Gw2 for 3 or 4 years ourely for recreational reasons, means that at the time i was Not engaged in economic or monetary activity. But the fact that I later decided to sell a book, that made Money, based on my experiences in game… suddenly turned all that previous " recreational" time… into " economic Monetary time.

How does this pertain to gw2 and selling gold for gems?

When you accrue the gems it may be Just " playing the game" and done purely for recreation. When you exchange that gold for gems…at that moment, even if you do not do anything with them, you have assigned Monetary value to the time it took to acquire the gold you exchanged. And the value can be obtained by comparing How much real world cash it would have taken to buy the very dsame number of gems you purchased with in game gold.

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

The User agreement cannot contravene the science of economics. It’s a legal position, not an economic one. We will have to agree to disagree.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

Wrong see bold type makes you wrong cause…it’s in bold type.

Ok all kidding aside. If players did not sell gold for gems, ArenaNet would not have the gold to sell for gems to people that bought gems with cash.

So no. ArenaNet makes money when a player sells their gold for gems because it gives ArenaNet what it needs to fill one of the demands for gems, for whicjh players buy gems with cash… a ready supply of Gold. So yes, a stockbroker cares when a player sells his gold for gems, they just may not realize why they care, just as you don’t realize why they care. But..they care.

His point was that by using tokens on the street fighter machine, even if the arcade runner said " these tokens have no cash value" ( You cannot sell them back for cash)… doesn’t mean that the machine is not generating money when you put tokens in the machine.

Just because you say for free in bold type even doesn’t make it free.

The moment you exchange gold for gems which can then be exchanged for Virtual goods and services which have a real world value, you have assigned monetary value to the time it took you to accrue that gold.

And saying for free in bold, doesn’t make it free. it simply makes it free in your opinion.

I could say it in bold and in normal font, and that doesn’t change anything. It’s still a FACT, not an opinion.

There is no monetary value to Gold or to Gems. Just because Anet allows you to exchange Gems for Gold, doesn’t mean either has a monetary value. And this is no monetary value to your Time that you spent to farm any Gold in game. Never has been, never will. Facts are facts.

Yes Facts are Facts. But none of what you said was fact it’s just opinion. Anet says that in game gems have no monetary value, because they ant you to realize you cannot sell them back to Anet. That doesn’ mean they have no economic monetary value. They can say what they wish, but even Anet cannot contravene the science of economics.

Both of you are trying to use an arcade example to support your arguments. And again, both of you are misapplying it simply because it sounds relevant. As I said, the token system is similar to the usage of Gems. If you bothered to read my post, you’ll see that you skipped over the explanations as to why you can’t take the argument any further. Arcades force players to exchange their money for tokens, in a way to monopolize the player’s money. They get you to spend your money there and no where else, rather than allowing the players to pay with quarters. It’s a business tactic that allows the arcade to profit. If you want to tie tokens into Gems to support your argument, you then need to prove that a player is also able to exchange something else of non-monetary value for tokens. Unfortunately, you can’t, so your argument ends there.

Just because you like your explanation doesn’t mean i have to agree with it.

As for the Gem Exchange. allow me educate you on how it works. Anet loaded a set amount of Gold and Gems into the pot when the game first started. As time goes on, the exchange ratios go up or down, depending on the amount of Gold or Gems left in said pot. If more players exchange Gems for Gold, the ratios for that goes up, while the ratios for Gold to Gems goes down. At the moment, the ratios for exchanging Gold for Gems are pretty high, as a lot more players are doing that than Gems for Gold. With this in mind, the initial pot of Gold in the exchange still has the original amount Anet deposited, plus a whole lot extra.

Anet does not make money from players exchanging Gold for Gems. Not an opinion, but fact (just in case you didn’t understand). Anet makes money when I pay with my creditcard to buy Gems. Once I pay, I get Gems that have no monetary value. As with the arcade example, the business isn’t making money each time the player puts a token into the machine. The money was made as soon as the tokens were purchased. But that’s as far as the similarities go.

So when I say it’s “free”, that’s a cold hard fact. I spent no money and nothing else of monetary value should I farm for Gold to exchange for Gems. Anet allows for such a transaction for players who don’t wish to spend real money on microtransactions. If they took away the Gem Exchange, they would still be making money via Gem purchases, because that’s where the revenue is generated.

You cannot educate me since you yourself do not have all the answers.

You simply revert back to A is B, A is B. “My opinions are fact because I say they are fact.”

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

I agree. Time has no monetary value, unless it is time in which monetary value is assigned.

The difference is, that I believe that based on future decisions, and actions past time can be assigned monetary value.

I can’t respond to this because it makes no sense to me. so depending on what you decide to do in the future, your time may or may not be worth money? You’re going to have to explain it.

It sounds to me like you’re confusing potential to make money because you have free time with an actual amount of time you set aside to make money; a job. Those aren’t the same thing and that’s not a realistic view. At this point, I think the whole argument is just academic so I will get back to the real point.

Anet doesn’t care if your time has value or not. That’s not how the rewards in the game are determined. Value or not, the player decides how their time is spent and what value it has. In either case where the time may or not be valuable, there are equivalent methods to achieve the same rewards in GW2 because you can buy gems with RL money or IG Gold, so whatever way an individual player falls on the spectrum of ‘time=money’, it’s fair and equivalent.

I may be spending my recreational time playing Gw2. It may be time I do not assign any value to at the present moment. But I may in the future make decisions that suddenly retro-actively assign value to that time, even if at the time I Myself did not.

Example 1.

from real life.

A lawyer while in switzerland on vacation skiing has an accident, ends up in the hospital. While there he picks up a guitar to pass the time, and starts taking lessons while there, and then at home. He finds he has a feeling for the guitar. He keeps playing it as a hobby, his profession is law. Eventually he decides to try to use his talents at singing and guitar to earn a living. he becomes an international singing sensation.

The action of learning to play guitar was one he decided on for recreational purposes. At the time it was time spent on a hobby not a Job, and yet his decision, and actions that led to him selling records.. rendered that past time, learning to play guitar, an economic monetary one.

Future decisions and actions can make past time ..engaged in recreational activities have real monetary value.

Example 2. I Play Gw2. Purely for fun, relaxation, and recreation. Then in a year, I start a website, and write a pamphlet " make Gold In Gw2!!!" I sell it for $29 per download. I suddently am making money from what used to be a past time, the experiences I acquired in game…for pure recreation , now have a monetary value. That I Played Gw2 for 3 or 4 years ourely for recreational reasons, means that at the time i was Not engaged in economic or monetary activity. But the fact that I later decided to sell a book, that made Money, based on my experiences in game… suddenly turned all that previous " recreational" time… into " economic Monetary time.

How does this pertain to gw2 and selling gold for gems?

When you accrue the gems it may be Just " playing the game" and done purely for recreation. When you exchange that gold for gems…at that moment, even if you do not do anything with them, you have assigned Monetary value to the time it took to acquire the gold you exchanged. And the value can be obtained by comparing How much real world cash it would have taken to buy the very dsame number of gems you purchased with in game gold.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

they would not have bought the product if they could not get something they wanted, thats like saying back in the day streetfighter game wasnt making more money in arcades, because people changed dollars into tokens.
its irrelevant if your tokens have no cash value in the arcade, the point is, what did they turn their dollars into tokens to do?

yes the streetfighter machine is making you money if people are spending their tokens on streetfighter.

Nope, you’re wrong again on a couple of things.

1) The reasons why a player buys Gems can vary. But it’s the actual purchase of Gems that makes Anet/NCSoft money. Exchanging Gold for Gems does nothing for a stockholder who wants to see real revenue.

Wrong see bold type makes you wrong cause…it’s in bold type.

Ok all kidding aside. If players did not sell gold for gems, ArenaNet would not have the gold to sell for gems to people that bought gems with cash.

So no. ArenaNet makes money when a player sells their gold for gems because it gives ArenaNet what it needs to fill one of the demands for gems, for whicjh players buy gems with cash… a ready supply of Gold. So yes, a stockbroker cares when a player sells his gold for gems, they just may not realize why they care, just as you don’t realize why they care. But..they care.

2) The token system in arcades had a single purpose – to force players to spend money only at the arcade in question. By offering bonus tokens for $5, $10, or $20 levels, you’ve effectively upsold them to spending more money, whereas allowing the use of quarters allows the player to pick and choose when they’re willing to leave.

His point was that by using tokens on the street fighter machine, even if the arcade runner said " these tokens have no cash value" ( You cannot sell them back for cash)… doesn’t mean that the machine is not generating money when you put tokens in the machine.

I get what you’re saying about the token system, as it’s similar in scope to Gems in this case. But, Gems have multiple uses. Exchange them for Gold, for conveniences, or for looks. A big difference is that you can’t exchange anything except money for tokens, but you can exchange in game Gold for Gems for free. I would love to see someone try to exchange their time for tokens. Also. tokens weren’t optional. If you wanted to play, you needed to pay or go somewhere else.

Just because you say for free in bold type even doesn’t make it free.

The moment you exchange gold for gems which can then be exchanged for Virtual goods and services which have a real world value, you have assigned monetary value to the time it took you to accrue that gold.

And saying for free in bold, doesn’t make it free. it simply makes it free in your opinion.

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note that eminating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

/sigh

Again, your points are based on a fallacy: Affirming the consequent

Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. To simplify this, the 8 hours you spend working on a job is now assigned a monetary value. 8 hours playing on your computer at home has none.

Now you could make the argument that you’re self-employed, and therefore you work at home. But in that case, your income doesn’t come from a video game. It comes from something that others pay you for, be it as an at-home stock trader, or an entrepreneur who makes stuff animals for sale at the local flea market. Your time now has value added.

It’s interesting that you’re trying to use musical notes as a way to support your argument. Do realize that the notes that come from your guitar, piano, or even flute, are all the same as the notes you sing. Should I decide to go and sing my tenor part of Ave Maria, and play the same parts on my guitar, there would be harmony. The time you spent farming for Gold is not the same as the time you spent working your day job. So again, Time spent has no monetary value, but rather a perceived personal one. Would you have better spent it read a book? Or perhaps cooking dinner? Maybe it would have been better to wash the car on that beautiful sunny day. That is the true value of your Time.

One more thing, Dr. Castronova’s work is all theory, using assumptions to support his findings. My arguments are based on reality, so you can’t dispute these facts.

Your opinions are not facts. Let’s Just agree to disagree?

By the way, you are misunderstanding my point it’s

If P-> Q, P, ->Q.

Basic Logic.

His statement is not an opinion. It IS a fact that:

“Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned.”

I agree. Time has no monetary value, unless it is time in which monetary value is assigned.

The difference is, that I believe that based on future decisions, and actions past time can be assigned monetary value.

So potentially, unless someone finds a way to make money sleeping… all time has value, except for time spent sleeping. Unless One finds a way to make money sleeping…

Rising Dusk.2408:

41863kittenelith.7360:

Now you are being a bit disingenuous. I am sure that you would do dungeons if there were zero compensation since for you the compensation is social.

The time you spend doing them with friends, and helping friends complete content is payment enough for you. Your compensation is not economic.

But In general, while I cannot assign a %… I can say that in MMO’s the vast majority of players care about compensation, otherwise we would not have the arguments on the forums about " Content A does not pay enough"

And affirming " GW2 is different" doesn’t prove that the vast majority of players do not fall within the averages of MMO players In general… in other words…

Loot matters.

Sure it does, but you’re attributing data that you haven’t presented to us to a game with a completely different pay model compared to every other MMO. Those two issues alone are enough that any statements regarding the veracity of your claim can be dismissed as uninformed, no offense intended. As the claimant of the hypothesis you’re presenting as fact, the onus is on you to back it up. That is, however, assuming we want this to be a serious discussion (which I have thus far assumed as the case). If it’s more a gut feeling or hunch, then ignore this post as there’s not much discussion can be had on hunches or gut feelings.

No offense taken :-)… You feel that Gw2 is a special game, and that " The rules do not apply"

Gw2, is an MMO. Players in MMO’s care about loot.

Call me uninformed, I take no offence, because I am informed enough to know the type of players that play MMO’s. And affirming" Gw2 is different" while true…. gw2 is not so different that players do not care about loot.

If Players did not care about Loot, then the devs would remove Loot, xp, daily and monthly completion content, karma , prestige, armor drops…etc.

I Like Gw2. As do you, but I also acknowledge that Gw2 is an MMO, and some things are constant. A Lot of things can be changed and moved around, but one thing will always beconstant about MMO’s…

Loot matters.

Since loot matters you can say that most players spend their time " grinding" by your definition, since they are always trying to maximize gold for effort expended.

Loot matters.

The games where loot doesn’t matter are not MMO’s. if Gw2 is an MMO, loot matters. Therefore by your own definition, players are engaged in monetary economic activity.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

The Geico commercial I saw that week had the tree screaming for help. So yes, the tree does make a noise.

Side note – my arguments are actually based on the fact opinion that an individual’s time has no monetary value. There are only a few exception to this rule, as has been debated in this thread.

Fixed it for you.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think it is impossible for any of us to make even remotely accurate claims as to what “most people do”. Doing so is naive. I speak only for myself when I say that I would do dungeons if they didn’t make gold because I enjoy the company I do dungeons with, and I also enjoy meeting and playing with new players I’ve never interacted with before. Maybe for someone else they feel otherwise. As an MMO it does lure in a certain type of player, but as a B2P game it also brings in a crowd who doesn’t care for grinding and doesn’t care about that sort of thing. Ultimately, I think the division of opinion here is because everyone has their own subjective answer to my question (and unique qualifications thereof), and that’s something we’ve just got to deal with.

Now you are being a bit disingenuous. I am sure that you would do dungeons if there were zero compensation since for you the compensation is social.

The time you spend doing them with friends, and helping friends complete content is payment enough for you. Your compensation is not economic.

But In general, while I cannot assign a %… I can say that in MMO’s the vast majority of players care about compensation, otherwise we would not have the arguments on the forums about " Content A does not pay enough"

And affirming " GW2 is different" doesn’t prove that the vast majority of players do not fall within the averages of MMO players In general… in other words…

Loot matters.

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

Depends was it a Mob, and does it drop loot?

lol

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note that eminating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

/sigh

Again, your points are based on a fallacy: Affirming the consequent

Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. To simplify this, the 8 hours you spend working on a job is now assigned a monetary value. 8 hours playing on your computer at home has none.

Now you could make the argument that you’re self-employed, and therefore you work at home. But in that case, your income doesn’t come from a video game. It comes from something that others pay you for, be it as an at-home stock trader, or an entrepreneur who makes stuff animals for sale at the local flea market. Your time now has value added.

It’s interesting that you’re trying to use musical notes as a way to support your argument. Do realize that the notes that come from your guitar, piano, or even flute, are all the same as the notes you sing. Should I decide to go and sing my tenor part of Ave Maria, and play the same parts on my guitar, there would be harmony. The time you spent farming for Gold is not the same as the time you spent working your day job. So again, Time spent has no monetary value, but rather a perceived personal one. Would you have better spent it read a book? Or perhaps cooking dinner? Maybe it would have been better to wash the car on that beautiful sunny day. That is the true value of your Time.

One more thing, Dr. Castronova’s work is all theory, using assumptions to support his findings. My arguments are based on reality, so you can’t dispute these facts.

Your opinions are not facts. Let’s Just agree to disagree?

By the way, you are misunderstanding my point it’s

If P→ Q, P, →Q.

Basic Logic.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The distinction has to be made at the following level:

• Would you do this activity if it didn’t give you gold?

It’s an MMO so No. If the activity in question, playing Gw2, did not pay gold, ( in my opinion it doesn’t pay enough for the things I enjoy doing in the game)… then no.

If you say no, then you are ‘grinding’ content for gold, and thus your gold earned isn’t ‘free’ because it was the point.

I agree with you, and I am sure so do 99 % of MMO players. I am fairly certain if there were no drops of any kind, no gold no karma, no tokens, no compensation of any kind in dungeons … No xp, If anything done in that dungeon did not fulfill dailies or monthlies, No compansation for time spent in it, most of the players would stop doing dungeons.

So by your reasoning most players are “grinding” and Involved in economic activity.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

You keep repeating your opinion. I understood it the first time, I do not agree with it. Let’s Just agree to disagree.

I can understand why you won’t. As far as you are concerned this is fact. It is not possible for people to disagree abou facts, people can disagree about the perception of facts.

You believing what you believe , is not fact. it is opinion. The problem is a second level logic error on your part.

I believe your opinion to be opinion, you believe your opinion, to be fact. But believing it to be fact, does not make it fact.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note emanating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.”

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because Castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

On the other hand if you spent 8 hours in the toilet, and after you left you forgot to flush, and someone fished it out, bronzed it, and polished it, entitled it " you CAN polish a turd!" then sold it to MOMA (Sometimes i think MOMA thinks anything is art…so who knows it could happen) for $10,000 the the 8 hours you spent on the toilet is worth $10,000.

The fact that you did not recieve the $10,000 or that you did not intend for the fruits of your effort… the kitten , to have value, does not mean your kitten and the time that it took to produce it lacks value.

mtpelion.4562:

Anything earned while playing a video game (gold) is “free” from a real world perspective because you have already decided to throw away opportunity to earn and instead use your time on a purely recreational activity (gaming).

As such, anything earned in game (gold) that is used as a substitute for a currency with an actual value (real life money) is “free” in the sense that you were able to convert valueless time into valuable time by trading a worthless currency for something that normally requires a valuable currency.

Gem store items purchased with cash are not free as they require you to expend resources that have already been earned.

Gem store items purchased with gold are “free” as they require you to expend no resources that have not already been expended on profitless endeavors (gaming). They are a gift to you for your time spent.

Your opinion not fact. My opinion is that the only time anything in gw2 is free is if someone gives it to you as a gift. If you " farmed" or" did dungeons" or " did Champions" etc… and said time accrued Gold, which you then converted to gems, and with which you purchased something that can be puchased for real world cash, you have earned the real world cash it would have taken to purchase the virtual goods an services you purchased with in game gold.

Free means with no effort. When you play the game you are not " making zero effort." Free means a gift. means you logged in, and did nothing, and someone just walked up to you and handed it to you.

THAT is free. In my opinion, if you put effort, even into an MMO, and then use the fruit of thjat effort…in game gold, and exchange it for gems, and then use the gems to buy things that could be purchased for real world dollars, then the effort it took, is = to the real world dollars it would have taken.

So no… when you convert in game gold to gems, and use the gems to buy virtual goods and services, the virtual goods and services you purchased were not free.

Xenon.4537:

Etien.4601:

Vayne.8563:

Etien.4601:

Vayne.8563:

What gets me about this thread is that it’s still going on. Okay, Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are two different games. No question about that at this point specifically.

The game is almost two years old. You’d think people who didn’t like the game would have got their refund at the time they could have, and moved on. Standing around repeating it again and again doesn’t change anything.

This game is not like Guild Wars 1. We get it.

It wasn’t like Guild Wars 1 a year ago. It’s not going to be like Guild Wars 1 next year.

When does it stop? When do people just accept this is a different game? What’s the point of reiterating it for this long.

Does it help them game? Is it constructive? Does it server a purpose?

If I never see another this game isn’t Guild Wars 1 thread, it won’t be too soon.

Imagine if they made Star Craft 2 a moba game or Need for Speed an RTS. Your point is invalid.

My point is valid. If they made a Star Craft 2 moba and advertised it as a moba, then people shouldn’t complain. And two years after release, they should have long since gotten over it.

I mean Warcraft WAS an RTS. They made it into an MMORPG. I’m sure some people didn’t like it, but you know, a couple of years in, they realized it was a different game. Going to the WoW forums to complain WoW isn’t an RTS would have been silly.

Again your point is invalid. Sure Warcraft is an RTS but they didn’t name WoW – Warcraft 4. I hope you understand that. Changing the core gameplay from one type into another and calling it continuation is completely different. Story wise it is acceptable.

Both of you are kind of wrong. You are using an example in which a franchise completely changed genre. Warcraft was an RTS and became an MMO. The problem with the Guild Wars franchise is it started in a grey area. It wasn’t really an MMO. It was a multiplayer RPG, closer to Diablo honestly. GW2 is still a multiplayer RPG. It just so happens to have the “massively” part tacked on, which pushes it out of the grey area and puts it more clearly unto the MMO catagory.

Basically the shift of Warcraft 3 -> WoW is way bigger than the shift of GW1 -> GW2 on the spectrum of genre definitions.

By the way, as a game design student, I can say that fundamentally the gameplay mechanics of GW1 and GW2 aren’t really that alien to each other. Probably the two biggest differences are jumping and movement while casting. That is if we are talking about combat.

You forgot the part where in Guild Wars (There is no Guild Wars 2) You had many more skills, you could also pick ANY 8 skills you wanted from 2 separate classes, you had to hunt down bosses and kill them with ONLY 7 skills, since one had to be a signet of capture, instead of 5 weapon locked abilities. You had 9 different categories Into which you could spend ability points that had a GREATER effect on skills, than traits do in Gw2 ( 5 from primary class + 4 from secondary). You also had skills that synergized with one another so that the whole was a lot greater than the sum of their parts in Guild Wars, In Gw2…not that much.

But aside from that you are right, except for jumping and moving while casting they are practically identical.

Vayne.8563:

If you come on here and say I want to see more skills, I have no problem. The only time I’ve ever posted in those threads are to say I agree. I’d like to see more skills.

When you come into a thread and say I want to see more skills because Guild Wars 1 had more skills, you’re pretty much shooting the issue in the foot.

If the issue is more skills, talk about more skills. If the issue is not enough build diversity (something I’ve said a number of times), talk about that.

Because they second you bring this game isn’t like Guild Wars 1 into it, you’re stepping on your own toes. Because it’s obviously not supposed to be like Guild Wars 1.

By all means argue for what you want to see in the game. Comparing it to Guild Wars 1 accomplished absolutely nothing.

I do not care what you do or do not have a problem with. Your opinion isn’t that important to me.

As a buyer of the game I will express Myself as I see fit, if you like it great, if not, well, not much to be said about that. It just seems to me that you seem to feel that you need to defend the game No matter what, all the time, day in, day out, and I never see you Post any critiques, or to say " the OP has a Point Gw2 is weak when it comes to this and this."

All I am saying is, that… it does wound your credibility when all seems to be roses and daffodils according to you, and if anyone dares to say differently, you point them to the exit sign.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

What gets me about this thread is that it’s still going on. Okay, Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are two different games. No question about that at this point specifically.

The game is almost two years old. You’d think people who didn’t like the game would have got their refund at the time they could have, and moved on. Standing around repeating it again and again doesn’t change anything.

This game is not like Guild Wars 1. We get it.

It wasn’t like Guild Wars 1 a year ago. It’s not going to be like Guild Wars 1 next year.

When does it stop? When do people just accept this is a different game? What’s the point of reiterating it for this long.

Does it help them game? Is it constructive? Does it server a purpose?

If I never see another this game isn’t Guild Wars 1 thread, it won’t be too soon.

The Moment you saw what type of threat it was you had the freedom to back out, and read another, what have you accomplished by discounting the OP’s points with a " hey… don’t like it tough" type response?

Does it help you game? Is it constructive? Does it server a purpose?

Is it even on topic?

Well, that’s the point. The OP made this post months ago. Someone resurrected it, just to agree with it. The stuff I’m saying now I could have said months ago too. But then, I think people should hear both sides of a story.

The story is that yes the game is different but people should have known before launch and had a chance to get a refund after launch. That’s completely 100% pertinent.

Everything else is simply a response to people responding to me.

As someone above said the Trait system saw changes due to player push back. If you happen to be content with the game bully for you.

But Just because you are happy with the way it is now, doesn’t mean that those of us that expect better, should stop advocating for changes we would like to see.

I can understand why you wish to shut down any conversation about changes to the game. Yopu are perfectly content with where it currently is.

I’m not.

Now since I paid for this game as much as you, I feel i have a right to advocate for what i would like the game to become, so no..I won’t Just " let the door hit me on the way out." :-)

First of all, stick with what you know. I am not “perfectly” content with the changes to the game. That’s 100% false.

Secondly, I don’t shut down every thread that wants to change the game. That’s demonstrably false.

I have an opinion, I express the opinion. If you have a problem with what I’m saying, feel free to report it to the moderators.

My reply to the OP was on topic. Other people replied, I answered them.

If you can’t find complaint threads I haven’t posted in, you simply haven’t looked.

I wasn’t the one saying

You’d think people who didn’t like the game would have got their refund at the time they could have, and moved on. Standing around repeating it again and again doesn’t change anything.

That is a way to shut down conversation.

That is Not" sharing an opinion" that is ushering people that you disagree with out the door.

Vayne.8563:

If you can’t find complaint threads I haven’t posted in, you simply haven’t looked.

Not going to waste my time reading EVERY thread to see if you might or might not have posted in it.

I will say that every post I do see by you, seems to be to rush to Arenanet’s defense, all the time.

NOT Posting a rebuttal to a complaint doesn’t mean you do not rush to Arenanet’s defense. Abnd since all I see by you are posts defending arenanet all the time, i got the impression you are 100 % satisfied with the game as it is. especially when I never see any complaints.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

What gets me about this thread is that it’s still going on. Okay, Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are two different games. No question about that at this point specifically.

The game is almost two years old. You’d think people who didn’t like the game would have got their refund at the time they could have, and moved on. Standing around repeating it again and again doesn’t change anything.

This game is not like Guild Wars 1. We get it.

It wasn’t like Guild Wars 1 a year ago. It’s not going to be like Guild Wars 1 next year.

When does it stop? When do people just accept this is a different game? What’s the point of reiterating it for this long.

Does it help them game? Is it constructive? Does it server a purpose?

If I never see another this game isn’t Guild Wars 1 thread, it won’t be too soon.

The Moment you saw what type of threat it was you had the freedom to back out, and read another, what have you accomplished by discounting the OP’s points with a " hey… don’t like it tough" type response?

Does it help you game? Is it constructive? Does it server a purpose?

Is it even on topic?

Well, that’s the point. The OP made this post months ago. Someone resurrected it, just to agree with it. The stuff I’m saying now I could have said months ago too. But then, I think people should hear both sides of a story.

The story is that yes the game is different but people should have known before launch and had a chance to get a refund after launch. That’s completely 100% pertinent.

Everything else is simply a response to people responding to me.

As someone above said the Trait system saw changes due to player push back. If you happen to be content with the game bully for you.

But Just because you are happy with the way it is now, doesn’t mean that those of us that expect better, should stop advocating for changes we would like to see.

I can understand why you wish to shut down any conversation about changes to the game. You are perfectly content with where it currently is.

I’m not.

Now since I paid for this game as much as you, I feel i have a right to advocate for what i would like the game to become, so no..I won’t Just " let the door hit me on the way out." :-)

Vayne.8563:

What gets me about this thread is that it’s still going on. Okay, Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are two different games. No question about that at this point specifically.

The game is almost two years old. You’d think people who didn’t like the game would have got their refund at the time they could have, and moved on. Standing around repeating it again and again doesn’t change anything.

This game is not like Guild Wars 1. We get it.

It wasn’t like Guild Wars 1 a year ago. It’s not going to be like Guild Wars 1 next year.

When does it stop? When do people just accept this is a different game? What’s the point of reiterating it for this long.

Does it help them game? Is it constructive? Does it server a purpose?

If I never see another this game isn’t Guild Wars 1 thread, it won’t be too soon.

The Moment you saw what type of threat it was you had the freedom to back out, and read another, what have you accomplished by discounting the OP’s points with a " hey… don’t like it tough" type response?

Does it help you game? Is it constructive? Does it server a purpose?

Is it even on topic?

I went back to both Guild Wars and WoW. I think that this game feels too much Like a generic Free2play with a tyrian skin.

I do agree with the OP, deep down the existence of GW2 is something that upsets me, since it means :

Guild Wars ( Not Guild Wars 1, there is no Guild Wars 2) is not going to have any more updates or expansions.

A lot of the players that used to play it have left for GW2.

All Guild Wars needed was a graphical update, the ability to jump, swim, underwater zones. And a consistent world.

THAT is what I assumed that ArenaNet meant when they said " All the things you loved about Guild Wars." See The things I loved about Guild Wars are not present.

1. Hundreds of skills I can swap in and out as i wish.
2. Synergy Builds that work differently based on how you apply ability points.
3. Subclasses
4. Elite spell hunting by killing Boss Mobs.

The trait system doesn’t cut it, in my book.

So This game is not " Everything you loved from Guild Wars." They took everything I loved out, and added a bunch of stuff i care little about in.

dodgycookies.4562:

You two are arguing two points that are not exclusive. The paper that Nerelith cited derives the value of ingame PP (thus time)from the black market trade of items and accounts on sites like ebay. The premise being that real money, which is representative of economic value, was changing hands on a consistent basis, thus giving economic value to the digital goods and their methods of acquisition.

Smooth Penguin is speaking from the perspective of the individual player in which their “time” cannot be distilled down to a simple number and thus labeled as “worthwhile” or not. That “value of time” in terms of satisfaction is completely subjective and can only be determined if the player themselves and not by a market. Only at the point where the player chooses to engage in economic activity does a “value” exist.

As for losing money when using the bathroom, as a individual you are not, but from a company’s perspective you are. The idea is not silly, if you aren’t working you are not producing, which is a waste of man hours. The basics of opportunity cost can be applied to any activity. This is why breaks are highly regulated and legally mandated in certain fields, because if they weren’t employer’s used to not give breaks due to the loss of production. Which is where Nerelith is arguing from.

A macro and averages perspective that in the aggregate gold (and thus time spent farming that gold) has a real life cash value because the gold sellers/gem conversions exist. From this the assumption is that the prices set by those gold sellers (or anet) is determined by what the market in aggregate will bear which is the cash value of gold and thus time in game. However this does not speak to how an individual values their time in terms of satisfaction, only how the average decisions of all the players engaging in economic activity value their time in terms of cash and gold.

You two are speaking from non exclusive points and saying each is right, while both positions are valid.

My point is, even if there were no black market, then time and effort in game has economic monetary value, especially since in-game-gold can be exchanged for Gems, which can then be exchanged for virtual goods and services, that have a real world value.

I do not buy and sell gems anymore so please excuse me if the amounts I use are not accurate.

If I can buy 100 gems for 12 gold, and then I can also buy those 100 gems, for $7 USD. Then the effort I put Into acquiring that 12 gold = $7 USD, even if there is no black market for the exchange of gold to cash. Because I can use the gems I acquire with in game gold, to buy $7 worth of Virtual goods or services.

We need to remember back when Castronova wrote his paper, there was no “Gem store” or " cash shop". The value back THEN was from the potential, to exchange in game gold for real world cash in the black market.

Today there is the exchange of in game gold, for gems, which can then be used to purchase Virtual Goods and services.

Imagine you come into a restaurant, and sweep up before the reastaurant opens, and the deal you worked out with the owner is, that in exchange you get to order Breakfast off the menu… Up to say $10 worth of food.

is your labor, not then worth $10 …even if you never get any cash?

How is this not the same in Gw2?

Our positions are mutually exclusive since he says that if a player bought 100 gems with gold he got the gems free. I am saying that the time and effort that were put into acquiring that gold cost was work. The price he was paid by ArenaNet was the amount of cash it would take to buy the gems if it had been purchased with cash.

The Player that bought the 100 gems with cash paid for them with cash, the player that bought the 100 gems with gold, bought them with work. They were not free.

It seems to me that Smooth Penguin does not believe Virtual Goods and Services have a real world value.

Smith.1826:

GW1 was questionably and reasonably balanced pre-Factions, it most certainly wasn’t afterwards. All of the newer professions attempted to fill niches that the preexisting six already had and didn’t really introduce a whole lot mechanically (I wouldn’t count the assassin’s potential to ignore positioning much of a “plus”).

This was made all the more frustrating by the fact that it was still the most fun and some of the most unique PvP I’ve ever experienced in an RPG.

I HatePvP, Only game I ever enjoyed it was Guild Wars. I totally enjoyed GvG. If WvWvW were like GvG, I’d Play Gw2 more.

Behellagh.1468:

@Nerelith

If you were involved at all with City of Heroes then I can understand why here it feels like the devs are ignoring us because in CoH you really felt you could have a two way conversation with Paragon’s devs. They would tell us why X was hard or why Y got delayed. If you were willing to engage the devs with a modicum of respect you didn’t get the impression that they were treating you like mushrooms. But CoH was a fairly tight community especially toward the end.

There’s 10x more people just in the EU/NA that bought this game than CoH/CoV. That simply increases the number of people who will take offense that the Devs aren’t listening to them. The Noise to Signal ratio would be so high if they attempted anything that resembled the dialog we had in CoH/CoV that it’s understandable why they don’t bother.

If every post listing intent is treated as a sacred blood oath I wouldn’t want to poke my head out again until I’m 100% sure.

I guess that may be my issue. I remember How CoH would actually have a conversation with it’s players, as did Guild Wars.

The irony is that my 2 favorite MMO’s are NCSoft products. I played the crap out of both games.

I remember how quick Guild wars was with it’s balance issues. Even though it had what 3… 4 x’s the number of skills AND sub-classes?

I guess that is what MMO’s in the modern era is. Since you are one of 5 million other people that also bought the game, if they lose you, no skin off their nose. Another 3 are lined up behind ya.

My feeling is.. that MMO’s are a weird game genre. it is different we know that but how is it different?

Other games a company puts out a product, and hopes there is a market for it. But the product once created, is as it is. If there is a market for it, awesome, if Not, maybe the creators have a chance to change the product to make it more appealing.

MMO’s in general are seen, and experienced more as a collaboration between the creator, and the purchaser of the content.

A partnership. Am I saying the players have a right to royalties? of course not. But it is still a genre where the Developer-customer relationship is vital to the success of the product.

When that relationship is troubled, the product is troubled. When the customer feels taken for granted, bamboozled, or strung along.. wallets tighten.

When a game is monetized by a gem shop, the good will of your customers is vital to your success. A couple of people shut their wallets, no big deal…but as more and more people start feeling that either they are:

1. Taken for granted.
2. Being strung along.

What happens is more and more people may continue playing the game, and players IN the game is good for the game..who wants to log into empty server maps?

The fact remains that a happy player spends more. And nothing makes a player happiest but when they feel like a part of the process.

Can ArenaNet do whatever they wish, and never share any information with it’s playerbase? Of course they can.

Is it a good strategy though, with an MMO Monetized by a gem store, that players can simply choose to ignore, and just " Play the game"?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.

from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money

however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?

its a matter of perspective in some respects.

but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.

the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.

ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.

For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.

In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.

Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.

Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?

A = B. A = B.

You are repeating your opinion. I understand your opinion, I happen to feel that some of your assumptions are faulty. We can agree to disagree, but it’s hard when you are going around declaring your opinion to be fact.

Someone with more economic knowledge than you has said that time and effort have monetary value. You disagree. Not the first time that someone says " My opinion is different than yours." the issue is, you are claming your opinions are fact.

You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

PS: You are wrong you are allowed to buy dusk with real money. Just Think about it for a sec.

Again, it’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C. Dr. Castronova, as brilliant as he is, can easily make the argument that Time = Money. But as I’ve already debated and disproved this, that puts me on par with him. So I guess that’s a testament to my debate skills.

You have not proven anything except that you feel your opinions are facts. Repeating that you are better able to discuss economics in a Virtual setting than a peer-revued scholar that put his reputation on the line, while you are an anonymous voice on the internet did make me smile.

We have to agree to disagree, as our opinions don’t match.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.

from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money

however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?

its a matter of perspective in some respects.

but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.

the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.

ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.

For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.

In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.

Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.

Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?

A = B. A = B.

You are repeating your opinion. I understand your opinion, I happen to feel that some of your assumptions are faulty. We can agree to disagree, but it’s hard when you are going around declaring your opinion to be fact.

Someone with more economic knowledge than you has said that time and effort have monetary value. You disagree. Not the first time that someone says " My opinion is different than yours." the issue is, you are claming your opinions are fact.

You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

PS: You are wrong you are allowed to buy dusk with real money. Just Think about it for a sec.

Blanger.3162:

Kanebrake.6192:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Kanebrake.6192:

You’re right a phone company isn’t a great comparison. Because a phone company doesn’t tell people it will provide a service that it can’t. And for some reason if it does make a promise it can’t deliver on it’s going to be held accountable by regulators and customers. But a gaming company has no such leash to keep it in check. They can essentially say “Too bad this is what we’re giving you now. Deal with it”

Have you ever had to deal with ATT?
Or Comcast?

Just ugh. Held accountable my kitten …

Poor service isn’t the same as violating their agreement with the customer. I can guarantee that no telco guarantees any level of service. If they did regulators would be all over them. That’s why you they only promise “best effort” and don’t guarantee service. If your comcast internet is down for a week guess what? They didn’t guarantee you any level of availability. And if they want to charge you for the full month they can. Because you signed a contract saying you agreed to that. More often than not they’re going to give you a credit for the time it wasn’t available. They don’t have to, but as long as the problem was caused on their end they will most likely make the offer.

LOL…. your right, in that light all Anet would be required in the telco world is to offer the game on some server how you get there is up to you, can’t connect not their problem, connection laggy not their problem, hardware not compatible not their problem, server down for maintenance not their problem, and on and on.

Compared to the telco world just look what GW2 gives you in service and updates all for the entry price, no monthly subs, but you know some folks still kitten whine.

My dad had a saying “Some people would kitten if they were hung with a new rope”

Your father doesn’t make sense, I would kitten if I were hung with any rope, that it is new, old, or recycled is irrelevant.