Guild Wars 2

So… what IS the new drop rate of the keys?

Punishingly low. And that’s all you’ll ever know.

Corelion.7460:

->Dulled senses -> Knockbacks on dungeons sometimes causes troubles. Change it for knockDOWN.

The trigger requires the target be very close to you. If you’re not supposed to knock it, don’t walk up to it. If it’s chasing you, you absolutely want the added separation a knockback gives.

punahou.3986:

title says it all

Because they are ADVERTISING.

Putting the info out where people who don’t already know about or own GW2 is essential to keeping the doors open and the lights on at ArenaNet. Telling the faithful (that’s us) is not nearly as important to the continued existence of the game as taking every opportunity to put the game in front of people who don’t play yet.

Just for reference~

Skills that remove boons
Weapon skills: Mind Spike (Mesmer),Mind Stab (Mesmer), Spinal Shivers (Necro)
Utility/Profession/Elite skills: Null Field (Mesmer), Phantasmal Disenchanter (Mesmer), Throw Mine (Engineer), Mine Field (Engineer), Grim Specter (Necro)

Skills that transfer boons to you
Weapon skills: Larcenous Strike (thief)
Utility skills: Arcane Thievery (Mesmer)

Skills that transform boons into conditions
Weapon skills: Unholy Feast(necromancer)
Utility skills: Corrupt Boon (necromancer), Well of Corruption (necromancer)

Not seeing the need to smear effects around the “profession pie” when it’s clear boon striping is a Mesemer/Necro thing, boon stealing is a Thief thing, and boon corruption is a Necro thing.

While Mesmers are competitive in most modes, having something that makes Necros uniquely desirable is gonna be very important in securing them a place at the Raiding Table given how poorly they are regarded for Dungeons.

Man, if only I could equip Sigil of Nulification because I prioritize boon removal above the stuff my Sigils are giving now…

Yup, I’m good with the double meaning they’re playing on.

Hexalot.8194:

Sorry but that explanation doesn’t hold water. Necros have plenty of access to BOTH chill and cripple yet Anet still gives then access to running speed both as a trait and utility skill. Lack of improved running speed or reliable swiftness in general is the number one reason I retired my Guardian. I guess I just got tired of being tethered to travellers runes just to improve my quality of life.

And despite those tools Necromancers are complete garbage at disengaging. Probably something to do with us having much more useable teleports than Necros.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Much to your dismay, Revenant’s do need a weakness.

Every class needs a weakness. The lack of a 25% speed trait has always been one of those weaknesses for Guardian. Sorry it’s the straw that broke your back, but homogenizing the classes until the main difference is the color of their FX isn’t a desirable goal. Maybe you’ll see it on a Guard Espec at some point, but it’s not looking like this is that day.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Bitoku Kishi.8346:

I’m guessing they might be able to be slotted into any Legend, which could be pretty convenient to replace some of the less useful Legend skills…

The problem is that they are balanced around having 1 skill bar and not 2 for the right half of your bar. They are also not made with energy in mind and would need to be changed to work with revenant, but would muddy the purity of each legends skill set playstyle. I thought I had mentioned it before on one of the initial streams, but racial skills won’t be usable on revenant.

Then you need to bar the class to Norns… because a Norn that can’t shift to spirit-totem form is an abomination. We’ve had an entire expansion centered around this fact.

Arnath.2319:

They completely reworked the Tempest skill Rebound so they can do the same for Traps.

Traps in there current form are 100% completely unquestionably useless. Fact.

Its statements like these that make me giddy to finally run DH after HoT goes live and imagine the screams of frustration when people blunder into my traps.

Karl McLain.5604:

Overload Earth will now leave behind a dust-nado (name ongoing)…

Type “Dust Devil” into Google and click ‘images’ and you will see everything you need to know .

Then do it again for “Fire Whirls” and be amazed at how awesome real weather is.

Obtena.7952:

But all kidding aside, it seems that it wasn’t clear to people this was intended with all the calls for various elements not aligned to that concept. There should be no question now with the proposed additional crippling effects, etc…

The new cripple on Virtue of Justice’s passive is amazing.

Those changes are really good but I don’t get the shortened duration of traps … I guess the 1 second placement was too much of a PVP tell?

Don’t knock it. The precision with which some players can read casting emotes is terrifying. I’ll take any edge they’re willing to give me when it comes to slipping traps into play once the fight is underway. I fully expect the stealth from Runes of the Trapper to be used dropping 1 trap to mask dropping another trap nearby and then building some distance with the speed buff and 6 second of stealth.

At least for the coming weekend Tempest has a fast-resetting stunbreak that doesn’t eat a utility skill slot and pretty much invites people to CC you → close for the kill → get a face full of overload.

Karl McLain.5604:

Following up on the Stunbreak conversation: This is something we’ve talked about in the past and felt like it might just be way too strong. However, it still sounds like way too much fun to not try it out… so I’m going to change them over and we’ll see what that plays like in BWE3.
Please keep in mind that this will be a test and we may have to compensate for or remove it at some point in the future, if it’s too strong.

-Karl

Karl McLain.5604:

Following up on the Stunbreak conversation: This is something we’ve talked about in the past and felt like it might just be way too strong. However, it still sounds like way too much fun to not try it out… so I’m going to change them over and we’ll see what that plays like in BWE3.
Please keep in mind that this will be a test and we may have to compensate for or remove it at some point in the future, if it’s too strong.

-Karl

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

BOOM GOES THE TEMPEST!

While undeniably strong, I’d like to think it also frees up some space in the utility bar (less need to carry stunbreaks on #6-9). Hopefully this will also help answer the complaint that the Tempest doesn’t bring anything new to the Elementalist. It brings a whole new kind of ’don’t tread on me’…

Karl McLain.5604:

It currently has three pulses and heals for smaller amounts each pulse (skill facts will be visible next beta). Radius is 180, 240, 360. It’s a bit unique in that it heals all allies for the full amount, so long as they receive all three heals (the ele always receives all three).

While a cool concept, it’s probably a good idea to have a certain amount of uniformity amongst skills sharing the ‘shout’ tag. Would you consider 200/400/600 as most beneficial shouts have a 600 radius?

Also, if you have full Runes of the Trooper equipped, does each pulse clear a condition? Only the first pulse (allies would have to be right on top of you to benefit)? Only the last pulse (pretty big delay on self-cleansing…)?

Rashagar.8349:

Fashion Mage.3712:

- Which new weapon should it allow access to?

Main hand focus, so you can dual-wield books! =D

As cute as that sounds it won’t happen. Main hand and off-hand-only weapons are priced differently at vendor so they’re not gonna let you use an off-hand-only in the main hand.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Nike.2631:

Karl, would you consider making triggering/starting the channel for all Overloads a stunbreak?

Making Overloads stunbreaks is an AWESOME idea to make them worth using. This would be a great trait instead of the now-stability-giving one, with stability on Overloads REALLY needing to be a minor trait.

Thank you . I was actually thinking it should be default functionality for Overloads rather than an either/or kind of choice. Overloads should always have that kind of ‘explosive energy’ feel to them IMO .

Gwaihir.1745:

This is a beta testing for dragonhunter thread. Please keep non related spirit weapon shield fixed in their own topics.

You think Dragonhunters won’t be using shields and spirit weapons? Spirit weapons are amongst the most synergistic damage-added options available to Dragonhunters wielding their signature longbow. Adjusting their up-time will ABSOLUTELY impact Dragonhunter competitiveness.

Each of these changes are tiny, focused on how the Dragonhunter uses those tools rather than how the base profession would (namely from range), and Guardians don’t even get super-speed so any mention of it can only be in reference to Dragonhunters.

Slowmelt.8547:

Nike.2631:

I agree they could have and probably should have done better, but lets not compare apples and plastic fruit that vaguely looks like apples. Because the two things aren’t even as similar as apples and oranges.

The point is reasonable.
The amount of time spent making a tonic that maybe 5% of the player population might ever SEE, never mind OWN, could be spent making one third of the animation needed for having the Daredevil actually FEEL like a martial character who is good at what s/he does.

Understand what’s involved. Borrowing and repurposing existing assets from the Monkey King tonic is a GREAT idea. But to do it would also require additional time/resources from the character art & animation team to ensure it works with variable bulk/height and to remap those actions for the other body-types.

There is very little time left on the clock before HoT launches. It’s not as simple as “you should do it.” It is much more “Is it even possible in the time remaining and what will get displaced/shoved back if we do?”

If they can fit it in, great. But it’s not like throwing a light-switch just because the tonic is done.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

I love the Reaper, I seriously do. But is it only me or everything I see from the other classes (except the tempest and maybe the dragonhunter) seems more op and better than the ours? It’s always the same thing

It IS always the same thing, and that thing is called “the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill.”

Reaper is getting serious, significant iteration. Some of its worst concerns on reveal are just plain gone. The base profession of Necro has always had some amazing get-in-there-and-stay-there fighting ability even as a light armor wearer with its high HP and spare tank of gas (shroud). Reaper dials that up to 11 (maybe 12).

Sure, it’s not a great pursuit class, but NPC AI doesn’t run, and the PvP modes make being able to hold a position the fundamental scoring mechanic and Reapers hold ground like &$#@ing dark KINGS.

If you want a pursuit class experience, play a pursuit class. If you want premium grade ‘come at me bro’ look no further.

Karl McLain.5604:

Ricochet in its previous implementation is not slated to return at this time.
When the trait system was condensed, the standard was set in that each weapon set could only have one trait. Being that a player might want to receive increased damage from pistols, but not necessarily inherit the RNG bounce attacks from the secondary trait, this secondary trait was cut.
I will say though that pistols are something we’ll be looking to improve, being as they feel under-tuned at the moment.

-Karl

While there’s only room for exactly one “specific weapon trait” per weapon, we’ve seen traits that interact with multiple weapon types…

Could we get a “Ricochet” put back in if it added a random chance for an additional bounce to pistol, off-hand dagger #4, and shortbow? Then it wouldn’t be a “specific weapon trait” but instead modifies all our ranged weapons .

Karl McLain.5604:

Hello,
With another round of beta weekends complete, here’s where we’re going for the next beta:

Overloading:
We’ll be normalizing the casting time of each overload to four seconds. This way, you’ve got a guaranteed amount of time to overload before the pay-out. We’ll be looking at improving the pay-out for each overload ability.
…
Thanks for your continued constructive feedback.

-Karl

Karl, would you consider making triggering/starting the channel for all Overloads a stunbreak?

It would make kind of interesting counterplay for folks to think they have you nailed down with CC and you just EXPLODE your way out of it . Surprise!!

Decked.8274:

So you took the time to make new animations for the Monkey King Tonic but use recycled ones for Daredevil?
I realy hope the animations we have now are just placeholders.

Wait… They made new animations that only needed to work for one exact body-type, bulk, and height and didn’t for 3 entirely separate body-types (human, charr, assura) that have variable bulk and height?

I’m shocked. Really.

I agree they could have and probably should have done better, but lets not compare apples and plastic fruit that vaguely looks like apples. Because the two things aren’t even as similar as apples and oranges.

Getting the Dragonhunter into a good/competitive place also benefits from a little housekeeping in the Guardian’s core weapons, traits, and utility skills:

SHIELD
The Shield should actually be a pretty good weapon choice for a rear-line support spec. You’re in the right place to apply the forward cone effects to allies and the knockback can be used to actively shove enemies into a waiting trap or hem in their options for getting out of one.

• Shield of Judgement. Increase the range to 900 (up from 600; see the Herald’s Envoy of Exuberance shield skill for comparison). This will make it much easier to use the weapon to support from the rear line and to qualify for Pure of Sight’s damage bonus.
• Shield of Absorption. Increase the knockback, heal radius, and FX of the dome to 400 (up from 320) & make the dome impenetrable to dodge rolling. This will make the skill slightly easier to use, more significant for chokepoint control, and always knock targets back far enough that they trigger the Pure of Sight bonus.

In the same vein, the ‘shield trait’ Stalwart Defender either needs to be combined with Strength in Numbers (new trait always grants 150 Toughness to you and 4 allies + you gain +20% shield cooldown) OR add “Using a shield skill gives you Aegis for 8 seconds.”

SPIRIT WEAPONS
This line of utility skills should mesh beautifully with longbow gameplay but has been plagued with problems for a while now (since they became vulnerable to destruction, really). The enduring popularity of Warrior banners should tell you how important having these not die from boss AoE was to their previous desirability.

• All spirit weapons. Skills gain the “Minion” classification. Sprit weapons have no maximum duration and persist until destroyed. Summoning the weapon sets the skill to its flip/command mode. Skill goes on cooldown with the weapon is destroyed. Review the HP & Toughness-per-Level curves of these summons as they are extremely powerful at low levels (mid-20’s) and excessively fragile at Level 80.

SUPER-SPEED
This effect becomes available to Dragonhunters through the class-friendly Superior Runes of the Trapper. It needs to WORK. Presently its effects are capped so that it’s no more effective than normal swiftness. Alternatively the 4 piece set bonus of the runes needs to be changed to something that doesn’t rely on a broken effect.

With a few small corrections the competitive build diversity of the Dragonhunter goes way up. Please Spend the time to make these adjustments to the core profession and bring the Dragonhunter to a good place at launch!

Thanks!

Isarii.2804:

It’s baffling. Between Longbow and having to kite people into traps, it makes absolutely no sense that Dragonhunter doesn’t have access to a 25% movement speed increase.

It’s less baffling when you keep in mind all the cripple the DH is doing.
x1 speed vs x.5 beats x1.25 speed vs. x1.

Still happy with Guardian… but I would steal the Revenant’s shield skills in a heartbeat .

Karl McLain.5604:

Harmonious Conduit: This trait has been re-worked. Upon activating an overload, gain stability for 4 seconds. If the overload is successfully completed, gain 10% damage for 5 seconds.

Thanks for your continued constructive feedback.

-Karl

Two quick suggestions.

• Can Harmonious Conduit (or at least the stability) be moved to the Master-tier minor trait? Not getting knocked on your butt mid-overload channel is so essential this Trait is going to be viewed as a “trait tax” just to play a Tempest. If it stays, can we get the after effect changed to “gain 10% damage and outgoing heals for 5 seconds” so its appealing for support as well as DPS?

• Consider a flat +10% bonus to all weapon skills cooldowns as part of Singularity. If we’re gonna stick to one attunement to charge overload, it would be nice if we spent a little less time looking at a tray full of skills on cooldown wishing we could swap attunements.

TRAPS

I am perfectly happy with the Dragonhunter getting traps as their additional utility skill-type, but the traps themselves still need a little more payout for the risks.

• Purification. As it’s name suggests it needs to address conditions. Add “Placing this trap removes 1 condition from the Dragonhunter. When this trap is triggered convert 1 condition on the Dragonhunter to a boon.”
• Fragments of Faith. Still the gem of the set.
• Light’s Judgment. It’s right there in the name… Add “Triggering the trap creates a light field.”
• Test of Faith. Add “Placing this trap is a stunbreak. Triggering the trap creates a light field.”
• Procession of Blades. Spin to win! Add “First and final damage pulse are whirl finishers.”
• Dragon’s Maw. Needs more cowbell! Add “Downed enemies in the attack radius are killed at the end of the duration.” (using tech seen in the Daredevil Elite)

Adding a cleanse convert to the healing trap, a stun break to what is arguably the weakest of the traps, and a little more indirect condition cleansing through light fields will go a long way towards making trap-heavy or even all traps builds have the survivability to actually use the traps line.

Vikkela.7261:

Q: How will Hunter’s Determination (Aegis and Trap when controlled) function when Retaliatory Subconscious (Aegis and Retaliation when controlled) is traited at the same time?
Will they collide or will we be able to, say: get CC -> proc one of traits -> get aegis -> get aegis removed -> get CC again -> proc second trait OR will both be on cooldown straight after the first CC and we should make sure we never pick both traits at the same time?

Um, why wouldn’t both effects trigger? Aegis stacks duration. Done. No conflict.

Darknicrofia.2604:

still doesn’t address the glaring problem of can’t activate virtues while channeling RF

That would be the specific intent of the design. Play with a different Elite for a change.

Svarty.8019:

I wanted to try and get a toxic skin, so I was saving them. I now have 125.

Is there any point saving these, bearing in mind that the event may or may not be repeated?

I’d rephrase the question. After the black eye this event gave ANet — having a dedicated, massively policed for right-think “positive feedback/suggestions” thread is just shy of a “the building’s on fire” level of damage control for ArenaNet — we’re NOT going to see the event again. We might see a substantially revamped version if they can come up with some proper tech to dis-incentivize the tap-&-run tactics.

The right question is “Will there be sources of the blooms-currency in the future?”

maddoctor.2738:

I quote one person per post, easier to follow

Knowing who that person IS and having a one-click option to see their original post makes it easier to follow and actually takes less effort since it’s built-in to the board’s quote functionality . It also has the advantage of putting their name in the post so if you’re checking to see if anyone has answered you, you can just search the page for your own screen name.

Oh for the love of the Six Absent Gods would people please quit trimming off the “who said this” tagging at the top of quotes!!?!? Amongst other things they are hotlinks to the original post so you can review the quoted posts in their entirety.

Wall of Unattributed Text critical hits for ALL THE SANITY POINTS.

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Well, it might help cut through the language barriers for everybody if we can all briefly agree that Grind is “Repeating the same activity for the reward rather than for the joy of the gameplay.”

There is one problem with your definition, it means everything ever is a grind.

Nope. Single-use content isn’t a grind (not a repetition). Chess isn’t usually a grind either (motivation is the joy in gameplay without rewards beyond winning). Playing through the Personal Story once may or may not be fun, but it’s not a grind. Its a grind the second time you do it with the branches specifically there to give you some glimpses of new content in and amongst the repetition. The first time you down a raid boss isn’t a grind. Its one area where tabletop RPGs vastly outperform MMOs and why procedurally generated content is THE big thing in what’s coming for video games. Tools to close the gap between the speed content can be created and the speed at which it’s consumed.

The number of rewards can make the grind go away, if there loads of rewards to get from running specific content then it’s not a problem. You will run it multiple times to get multiple rewards, it’s not only one reward.

In other words, there is a big difference between:
Run the content 20 times to get 1 reward and
Run the content 20 times and get 20 rewards (one on each run)

There is such a huge quality vs. quantity discussion in there I’m not sure I even want to go down that rabbit hole. But let me try to skip to the end with “20 uninteresting rewards does less to make 20 repetitions (the grind) tolerable than a single supremely desirable reward.”

The fact that all rewards are not created equally (or valued uniformly) would be why discussing which might best be used for incentivizing repetitive use of raid content was such an interesting question. I’d offer a multi-pronged strategy myself, with certain reward types happening at regular intervals (e.g. a raid currency that lets you choose a reward after ever 4 success) and some delivered only at major milestones of repetition (progressive titles at 1, 10, and 25 successes).

(…and I still think you could create a broadly attractive array without exclusive armor skins. They won’t, but it could be done.)

So, basically we need that creepy Asura genius no one likes to talk to and his krew of eager neo-goths to whip up a man/charr/norn-portable Souleater Cannon. Basically something that kills you so bad you don’t get an afterlife. Which, if you think about it, is really horrible.

And something Asura would totally do when they feel threatened.

maddoctor.2738:

Where? Getting 60 different pieces of armor for 10 different character is now called grind?

Well, it might help cut through the language barriers for everybody if we can all briefly agree that Grind is “Repeating the same activity for the reward rather than for the joy of the gameplay.” That’s everywhere and people do it all the time. The Grind people complain about is “Repeating the same content for a reward more times than I think is reasonable” which is super subjective. Like to a degree you should never expect people to agree on where something switches from pleasurable pursuit to “OMGWTFBBQGrindy-grind-grind-oh god the pain-brrbulluglblah…”

If I really liked Southsun Survivalist I’d be in there every day its available playing multiple matches. Instead I’m only in there when there’s the added reward of it advancing the daily. That’s a grind. Not a terrible one IMO, as I like the Southsun Survivalist gameplay enough that doing it once a month or so when the stars align is grind I’m willing to tolerate. There’s a whole set of achievements associated with it (rewards), and while I like having achievements (desire), they are not enough of an incentive to make me actively grind the mini-game for them.

So while rewards can get people to use a piece of content, never confuse the desirability of the reward with the desirability of the gameplay. Increasing the rewards to get people to use content sets the stage for grind, but the gameplay determines when the players start complaining about it .

My issue with Pure of SIght is that its inconsistent with the general principles of trait design seen across all of the professions. Most minor traits are fairly weapon-choice agnostic. Bleed on crit works for any weapon. Reduced weapon swap cooldown works for any weapon. A trait that works (well) with an extremely limited sub set of a professions weapon is not a good choice for a trait you can’t dodge around. When the Devs implemented the new simplified trait system they publicly acknowledged one of the dangers of the new system was they had to be careful because there were so few alternative paths around a bad trait if one got into the mix. That’s even more true of the minor traits. They may be minor, but they have to be held to a higher standard of design and any piece of the trios. Due to its narrow application, Pure of Sight doesn’t meet that standard and it’s effect should be moved or reworked while the class is still in flux.

Coulter.2315:

Oh so you genuinely believe its a fashion simulator…

No. I just know its foolish to think its NOT a fashion simulator amongst other things. One look at the human female light armor sets (and some of the heavy!) will tell you this isn’t a game struggling for a grounded ‘professional adventures exposed to fangs and claws on a daily basis’ vibe. Surely you’ve noticed? Some might even call it ‘a tad egregious’ .

…and so you MUST go complain about PvP armour, Silverwastes Armour, all skins available through crafting only, anything gained from PS with unique skins…

You may wish to put in a little more effort reading the last full page of the thread before commenting. Take a moment, I’m sure you’ll see were I’ve already said I don’t waste my time trying to unseat systems already in place (without MUCH more serious cause) and that I’m largely resigned to ANet sticking to its original plan for armor skins exclusive to raids. This is me chatting. When I settle in to really try to convince the Devs of something, it looks quite different. There’s fancy letterhead .

That was really the nice thing about the CDIs – they were a chance for the pebbles to vote before the avalanche had started.

You are being selective and have a WEAK position that betrays not a philosophy but a greed.

Oooo. Such hostility. I’m sure everyone reading is now totally convinced of the poorly thought out avarice underlying my input. The scales have fallen from their eyes.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Got a link to that vid? I’m curious.

Sure . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk1IxLnlcxc

(Though upon review that one is shot single camera. There could be another version somewhere or I may just be mentally interspersing my viewpoint of events… As one of the two swapping tanks I spent a lot of that fight looking up at a ‘space troll’s junk .)

Coulter.2315:

Perfect, now consider there was no filming and that you had an item which signified that night for you, you wore it with pride because it literally was the object formed of that evening. This is exactly the reason people want unique rewards attached to raids – because they are more than just something new to wear, they are memories.

Sure. At no point have I suggested there shouldn’t be tangible (as such things go in an MMO), visible, and verifiable icons for bragging rights. But I have multiple priorities as both raider and clothes horse and think that those bragging rights can be fully served without using armor skins, therefor serving another only-sometimes intersecting class of player too. As some have called for: compromise.

But I also feel that while an in-game item can serve as a talisman, a mnemonic key, the only truly unique prize is the experience itself. (though a good video capture sorta splits the difference)

Ald.9418:

When everyone runs pure glass cannon dps builds because everything dies in ten seconds, then we have a problem.

That perception is actually part of the problem…

There are NO glass cannons in this game.

Every. Single. Character. has 2 stacks of on demand immortality and every boss’ primary (one-shot) hits have a tempo set to never fire more often than the player’s immortality stacks recharge.

There’s a reason people can overcome high end 5-man encounters solo, NOT wearing tank gear. The way encounters are designed with slow tempo massive hits all the defensive stat stacking in the world isn’t worth as much as dodging to the beat.

Coulter.2315:

What you’ve said is “I am fine with every conceivable unique reward being tied to raids except armour” what you haven’t explained is why armour is not allowed to be unique and tied to raids.

Keep reading. Answered in a later post.

(I am not accepting “because I want to dress up in all the dresses” as an acceptable answer – GW2 is not a fashion simulator).

Do you really want to make that claim in a game with over 4 times as many cosmetic options as all of the skills and traits of all 9 professions put together ? A game where hands down the longest running positive thread is about mixing and matching skins? Expression of identity is CRITICAL in MMOs. That you’re not the audience being served doesn’t mean that audience isn’t being served.

First, foremost, and always I want the bubble from #5 (and the wall from staff #5) to be solid enough to enemy repel dodge-rolls.

phys.7689:

nah, in most of those cases in other games, i wanted it for myself. Im not really an external validation type. However, a reward that i can get doing something else diminishes my motivation to do specific tasks.

And there we differ (no worries, that’s normal ). To me the best “drop” from a raid is the experience of beating the raid – and there are no other avenues to get that reward. Nothing diminishes it.

Let me share a story.

A new raid came out in a game I was playing hard. I was bouncing between three different guilds at the time: two good sized raiding guilds and my RL buddies guild. We weren’t big enough to field our own raid groups but were welcome in both the other groups’ raid nights because of our proven reputation for being focused, well-geared, and knowledgeable on raid strats in our roles. I also had the free time and raid-ready characters for all three roles so I could fill in gaps in any composition.

We’d all beaten the first boss on soft-cuddly mode, but hard mode was kicking everybody’s butt. After a few weeks of this I finally end up approaching the raid leaders of both guilds asking if they’d give over some of their top people to me for a week (raid locks being a thing). I put together a hand-picked composition from the hardest of the hard from three guilds. I normally prefer to heal, but I had two healers better than me to play with and my tank was stronger than the second strongest tank available to me so I’m rolling in on my tank. Simultaneous raid-calling and tanking. Yeah, kinda crazy. We zone in and mad with power, I start putting them through drills: tackle some hard-as-heck trash pulls with certain people sitting out (“pretend Zane has DC’d”). People picked so guild A’s tank has to rely solely on Guild C’s healer that they’ve never played with before in a fight that’s lively with two healers. Or half the DPS sitting out so they can see the tanks and healers are still dishing major damage alongside their core roles. My version of a “getting to know you” party, only with bloodthirsty mobs serving the drinks .

I probably don’t have to tell you how the story ends. Ok, fine: In epic whupus form we beat down the boss encounter — all nine stages — on our third try of the evening. One of the other raid leaders put together a multi-angle video set to music where you can hear my voice calling the phases with occasional, tight commentary from the team as they very professionally call for assistance when they’re getting pressured. And cheering. Oh the cheering. Every contributing guild took home players who knew the strats first hand, veterans who would help their in-house teams make it happen in the following weeks.

I don’t have the slightest recollection what came out of the box that evening and I rarely ever log into the game anymore… but the story? Pure GOLD. Loot of the finest kind. I still go back and watch the video from time to time.

Ardid.7203:

kitten you funny posters. Now I want Forge to have a shout skill named “WITNEEES!!!!!”

I would buy a character slot and level a fresh engi up to 80 for That. One. Skill.

The next Engi E-spec NEEDS to be land-spear/shouts.

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

That’s good and understandable/reasonable, at least you give some “room” for any kind of compromise by not dismissing everything exclusive.

I like to think I’m reasonable . Ohoni has never responded to my posts in this thread that I recall, so I suspect they’ve either blocked me in some fashion or they simply consider me a traitor to the cause for not being militant/radical enough .

It’s funny if you consider the fact that Armor is by far the worse option to “show off” because unlike weapons, minis or titles, it is affected by graphic settings. In a crowd you won’t be seen at all.

That’s not a coincidence… it’s a byproduct of the exact crux of the difference in the two use cases: People who want exclusive visual rewards want to be seen by others as determined, capable, and skillful. People who want accessible cosmetic rewards want to be able to see themselves as pretty, scary, or tastefully refined.

I think the question we were all arguing about on this thread for many pages has been wrong all along. The question “should we have exclusive rewards?” isn’t the right one, because I think everyone that ever posted here agreed to some form of exclusivity, be it titles, minis, outfits, armor or weapons.

The real questions are:
What kind of rewards are better suited as exclusives. and the follow up:
Are those exclusives enough to make the content desirable.

Making progress after 30 pages

Indeed. Now you’re asking interesting questions.

I’ve said my piece on the first – visual cues are important, but armor is in a different class from other flags. And just to clarify, if they were to offer access to hairstyles and faces as rewards, I’d be as protective of those as I am of armor.

The second question… wooo. That one’s a doozy. As a successful raid leader in multiple MMOs… I don’t play raids for rewards. Ok, maybe a little when there’s stat advancement on the line that’ll makes the next run more likely to succeed, but really, I play for the pleasure of winning. I’m happiest when I’m there for the gameplay, not the chest. Ok, I also like enough coin to cover the cost of expenses for the evening (travel, consumables). In general all the people I care to convince I won were either in the raid with me or know me well enough to believe me when I’m in the mood to brag or regale them with a story of how we had this awesome time where things went pear-shaped but we pulled it out anyway… And for really awesome runs, posting a good video is way more effective than any in-game reward.

Titles, armor, etc. are for showing off to strangers. Not a big priority to me, but I understand the impulse. I do want a good reward structure – because happy raiders gives me a bigger pool to draw team members from. I want raiders with a variety of outlooks eager to participate. (ooo, enlightened self-interest)

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

hes saying titles in conjunction with other unique visual items. like minis/mounts/auras/animations whatever they can come up with

And the next question is: are minis/mounts/auras/animations enough? If the answer is yes then they shouldn’t put anything else in the game ever again. Why only raids? That’s the big question.

Wow. It’s not trolling. You really do see everything I’m saying inside out . It’s not a question of ‘is it enough’. I think it would be, but I’m happy to see armor skins as part of the raiding rewards. I just want the armor skins to not be exclusive to raids and to have alternate means of acquisition. Because of all of those things, I think armor skins are by far the most important and desirable to people who are interested in the aesthetics of their avatar and not just in the proclamation of status that exclusive visual cues provide.

maddoctor.2738:

We also have exclusive armors and weapons in the game too.

We do, and I’m not thrilled about that, but I also recognize when a ship has sailed. Raids haven’t been set in stone yet, so I think its still (mildly) worth agitating for a reward structure more to my tastes.

So anything but armors is fine with you. Why?

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

Ok, I’m reasonably convinced I’m being trolled, but sure, one more time because for the most part the conversation has been a pleasant diversion .

We have already have exclusive titles all throughout the game. I have no objection to exclusive titles for specific activities, and think they’d be a fine component of a whole array of rewards for Raiding.

I’d be willing/happy to see some kind of new visual distinction like cosmetic non-speed-increasing mounts much like we’ve already seen in game with the riding broom added to the game and amongst the rewards for successful raiding. This could be exclusive or not as the mood takes the Devs. I would also group unlimited tonics that turn you into the raid bosses in this category.

We’ve seen activity-exclusive weapons skins in game (Fractals) and minis (Liadri). I’ve got no complaint if there were a set of these items added that were primarily or even exclusively raiding rewards. To me its a great way to flesh out the array of rewards Raids might offer.

I DO NOT WANT ARMOR SKINS USED AS EXCLUSIVE RAID REWARDS. Non-exclusive, multiple avenues of acquisition armor skin would be fine. A good idea even, as long as there is also an sPvP and/or WvW way to get them in addition to raiding.

Hopefully I’ve articulated my desires more clearly .

phys.7689:

he basically wants non armor based exclusive visual elements. He feels all armor should be attainable by all in many ways in his perfect world.

Thank you. I feel like maybe there some sort of selective reading going on making my position more obscure than usual. If we’re talking about my perfect world, it is shaped by a little bit of pragmatism. I want all armor skins available through similar levels of commitment in the PvE, sPvP, and WvW play modes. To me the redundancy creates a relief valve where you can say “Nope, I ain’t doing that slog” and check to see if either of the other two are more bearable. To me its a plus that other people might reject a different point of any given triangle than I do.

I personally think people would be just as upset if not moreso, if raids had unique visual effects that are less common than armor.
like auras, mounts or anything else visually cool, that you dont have 100 other options for.

Oh, I don’t disagree. Really, I’m not against raiders lording it over the lesser folk from the backs of their Dolyaks. And to be honest I don’t much care about exclusive WEAPON skins, because most of them are IMO overblown godawful eyesores.

Uh, check the title of the thread. I’m pretty sure raids are implicit in any on-topic discussion going on here.

And I JUST SAID no, in my opinion titles alone are not sufficient as a reward for raids. And IF there are exclusive rewards for raiding, I’d rather those rewards not be armor skins.

B) Titles aren’t enough… which is 100% unrelated to the rest of the sentence you tried to string on it. There are a LOT of rewards/visual cues other than armor skins that can be used along with titles to create an environment where you can show off your mastery of raids.

And while I’d like for armor skins to keep having multiple avenues like we’ve seen with the Dungeon skins and for any EXCLUSIVELY raid-based rewards to take other forms (like my beloved riding Doyak), I’m not profoundly worried about it. I’m in a large active guild and am an experience raid leader from MMOs that put out way more technical content than GW2 will ever be. I hate putting together raid group but I adore learning/devising raid strats and being the voice on the headset that sets the tempo and directs traffic. I’ll get the skins if I want them. But I’d like the option to WvW like a lunatic or crush some fools in sPvP for them alongside raiding and for the effort put into them to be used to attract and retain more than just the fraction of the player base with that particular passion.