Guild Wars 2

Hello! I am not new to WvW but I here’s a question that I commonly hear:

“Why is that crazy guy yelling, ’DON’T TAKE SUPPLY FROM THE TOWER, WE’RE UPGRADING!!11!!’?”

This once the basics are covered, it would help to walk people through the Supply chain (Supply Camps -> Dolyaks -> Towers) and cover how upgrades work. Talking to the Quartermaster gives a lot of information, but not many people know this.

wish.1027:

About eyefinity.
It’s easy to tell if someone is using eyefinity/windowed mode or blatantly cheating with a zoom hack. The position of the AC and where it is shooting will tell you everything. If the AC is not against the wall pretty close to where it’s shooting on top of, it’s a zoom hack. Want to see for yourself? Switch to windowed mode and make your window super short and long, and go stand next to a wall and see how far up you can shoot.

Except nothing stops a cheater from building an AC in that “legit spot” and then crying “SLANDER” on the forums when they’ve been caught.

Jet.4795:

SoR getting more guilds? Ok I can understand maybe some SEA guilds or A SEA guild. But EU? Sigh Keep up the good fights though!

When RedGuard transferred to JQ, SoR’s knee-jerk reaction was to recruit? Ha! It’s pretty embarrassing really! You’d think [RG] would have shown them (and everyone else) that there is much left to learn, skill-wise.

…. Naw, just throw more bodies at it!

Double teaming is legitimate. Play better or have better politics.

Omgosh two world firsts in two days?? INCREDIBLE!!

Congratulations!!!

Competition keeps PvP games alive. I hope this is supported.

Congratulations! Thanks for coming to NA, as brief as it was!

morrolan.9608:

Nokaru.7831:

Wow! Look at all the Elementalists in this thread defending their exploit of a very obvious bug!

How about you actually refute the points raised if you can. 2 days ago I was on an AC being repeatedly DTed on my ele and kept firing quite easily and while my ele isn’t glass (2.5k armor and 17k health) its not a bunker.

Refute what point? You think it’s fair Elementalists allowed to cast spells through walls?

I’d give you a well-constructed logical argument if I wasn’t buckling over with laughter every time I began doing it.

Wow! Look at all the Elementalists in this thread defending their exploit of a very obvious bug!

Babayum.9204:

Just have to use whirling wraths carefuly

Or else.

SykkoB.9465:

this was already discussed AUTO TARGET and a skill that has no LOS blame anet and lets move on

Personally I like when FEAR “auto-targets on” the other side of walls with Arrow Carts.

Peetee.9406:

Gooj.8561:

Whoever that SoR ele was on FEAR; you’ve got to teach me your skills, I would like to know how to do this

Buy this high tech piece of machinery, it’s called a ‘Keyboard’. Equip a scepter and hit the ‘2’ key next to the wall.

It’s so lucky how FEAR’s Eles always manage to blindly auto-target the Arrow Carts!

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Retaliation is an effective defense tactic for zergs, but the key word here is tactic.

I have another tactic with dealing with AoE damage: It’s called not mindlessly standing in it.

As for the Engineers build you listed in particular, there is already play and counter-play. You can throw up Walls of Reflection or Shield of Absorption for example; there is counter-play because then the Engineer has to shoot around the wall, or be forced to use non-projectile attacks to kill the Shield of Absorption. Play & Counter-play is the game design theory that an ability adds something to enrich combat for both the player using it and to whom it is used against. Grenades aren’t even a fast projectile; they are easy to avoid as long as you’re paying attention.

As for large-scale Retaliation? The only way to reliably “deal” is to simply “not”; even the people defending it are saying, “Are you bad? Just stop attacking!” This is not enriching the game, but simply punishing people for using certain builds.

LetoII.3782:

Six pages because a glass ranger wants to stand a mile away from the fight spamming damage and resents having to stop for a moment to cast water field under it’s own feet?

Yes, the correct answer to Retaliation is to not attack a zerg with it! We agree!

Crawford.4135:

Look for the Fist Icon Boom, and don’t hit.

Gotcha! Don’t AoE anyone until I’ve clicked every potential target.

Crawford.4135:

I stack a lot of Toughness so their Ret doesn’t effect me as much as you’re mentioning. I just burn them down through it.

Toughness doesn’t affect Retaliation damage at all. Sorry for ruining your placebo effect!

Grove.2835:

Could a 1 sec cooldown for the retaliation proc work?

I think that’s too long honestly. Even a 0.2s internal cooldown would fix a lot of the issues with it.

MiLkZz.4789:

This is a learn to play issue to me. Never had trouble what so ever with retal.

Warrior of [VcY], guild from RoS

<- Not surprised.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Stealth is more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp. Yet revealed is shorter in WvWvW.
…
Yet boon duration runes work in WvWwW like in pve!
…
I simply fail to understand Arenanet’s logic. Probably there is NO logic.

These are not deliberate decisions. They have only recently split skills specifically for WvW. By default, they use their PvE equivalents.

Yup, this happened again on Blackgate today!

shimmerless.4560:

Why on earth were these arguments no good for Confusion but perfectly reasonable in this case?

It’s just a common case of double-standards and bias.

Overall Confusion was stronger than Retaliation, although in some ways it was weaker. For instance, it’s easier to identify when you’ll be backlashed with Confusion (Condition on you) as opposed to Retaliation (Boon upon many). Confusion was powerful against almost every build; (and very overpowered against a few) Retaliation is mostly effective against most builds and very powerful against a good handful of builds.

Or it needs to be less effective when applying it to allies in WvW. (Such as shorter duration)

tom.7468:

its not unbeatable just don’t throw you’re meteor shower in there.

By there, do you mean here?

WvW is won only through one thing: Having more players than the enemy team.

Handin.4032:

One thing I don’t understand is people saying they get hit for 20k damage by retal..I’m not sure how they can do that. If the retal damage is 350 per tick, that would require somehow hitting 57 people with 1 attack, ~28 with 2 attacks, etc…Even if you spread retal over an entire zerg, unless you’re just tabbing mindlessly with auto attack to get your tags in, it won’t get that much.

Enough said. (By the way, this is tame compared to what Engineers deal with)

The people who defend Retaliation in WvW are either keenly aware of or completely oblivious to how powerful it is. It’s hard figuring out which is which sometimes. There’s a reason Retaliation threads keep popping up. The Retaliation UI feedback has exposed the silent killer finally!

Deniara Devious.3948:

I voted it.

Thanks! My issue with the Boon’s interaction in WvW is that it shuts down many builds in WvW, leaving the battle-field stale and repetitive.

Here is the real answer:

(1) If you identify that the enemy has Retaliation, you are not supposed to use certain fast-hitting AoE skills (2) at that moment. Either (3) remove it, or (4) don’t attack.

Breaking down this answer:

1. Identifying the enemy has Retaliation is very difficult in a zerg. What exactly is reasonable? Are you supposed to target every player on the enemy team? The visual effect of Retaliation is too subtle to identify it properly in a large zerg. You should simply assume it’s going to be there on an organized zerg.
2. Retaliation in WvW follows the same ruleset as in PvE. Thus, sPvP limitations on Boons (-5% Boon Duration on Rune of the Water, Rune of the Monk) are not in effect. Furthermore, with consumables it further boosts the uptime of this Boon. Finally, with how large scale groups are in WvW, the uptime of Retaliation can be nigh indefinite.
3. Boon Removal vs. Boon Application is lopsided for reasons stated in (2). Boon Removal consists of stationary medium-sized AoE (240-300), while Boon Application typically involves Shouts which have twice the radii (600-900). Even if the stars align and you are able to land enough Null Fields, Well of Corruption, etc., the recharge rate of AoE Boon application exceeds that of removal.
4. Not attacking is the only response. Because (1) you must assume it’s there because it’s hard to identify if it is or isn’t, (2) and that it’s often up (3) while being difficult to remove, you must (4) use builds which do not punish you for hitting someone with Retaliation in the first place.

Make Retaliation proc Retaliation and I assure you that it will solve everything.

I have it! The solution is this:

Retaliation damage should also trigger Retaliation.

Sound good?!

Gab Superstar.4059:

You are just completely missing the point aren’t you?

• You know that pressing button A will result in an electric shock.
• You have the option of pressing or not pressing button A.
• You press button A. And again. And again. And again.

Does this seem reasonable to you?

You sound like you’re trying to argue in favor of Retaliation, but you’re actually arguing against it.

Mizu.9387:

Does this need a solution? If we clash with a mob that stacked retal, we immediatly hold off our big AoE’s until the 4-5 seconds have passed or our necros removed it. I thinkt he problem lies in people buttonmashing too much, not paying attention to buffs or how they take damage.

So, pro tip, if you’re a ranger, count to 5 before you unleash your barrage.

If Retaliation lasted only 1-3 seconds, I would agree; but it doesn’t. It can last indefinitely and it has very low recharges. You also act as if Boon Removal will remove all Boons instantly. As a self-admitted Guardian, you’re being incredibly disingenuous since you know how many Boons your Profession alone provides.

And for the record, those “button-mashers” are more skillful than you if they are landing damage on you. Why do you expect to be heavily rewarded for making a mistake?

Retaliation is simply not balanced in WvW. Just like Omnomberry Pie, it needs an internal-cooldown.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

How does a mesmer cause multiple procs of retal per attack? Are you sure you aren’t talking about confusion and retaliation?

Are you asking how does a Mesmer take Retaliation damage? It’s easy: Cast Feedback, or Temporal Curtain (Warden’s Feedback Major Trait)

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

So 15 out of 60 seconds = 25% of our fight we are supposed to not attack you.

Oh, if only Retaliation was only up 25% of the time…

I think it would help if the group-wide buff was a short duration than the self-buff.

We are experiencing a map-wide siege cap since the May 28th Update. The only thing we can drop are Alpha and Omega Siege Golems.

Aeolus.3615:

People are mad becouse they want to continue spam skils while target has retaliation, retaliations is here and people need to know when to stop.

You just want to keep being rewarded with free damage by standing in enemy AoE.

Aeolus.3615:

wait to boon disapear

This doesn’t happen in Tier 1. You’re on Tier 7 though, so I understand where the confusion comes from. Retaliation is meant to be a short duration defensive skill. The fact that it is up indefinitely in WvW is what breaks the Boon.

Immolator.5640:

I’m telling you; solution is make Barrage, Tornado, Flamethrower, Nades tick retal less often – they shouldn’t procc so much, that’s the problem in all honesty. Confusion wasn’t OP either, it just needed to stop proccing on dodging and attunement swap as well as passive traits.

It includes many abilities though. Meteor Shower, Ice Storm, Glyph of Elements, Wall of Reflection, Feedback, Cluster Bomb, Dagger Storm – way too many than I can recall off the top of my head. Even an incredibly brief internal cooldown of 0.2 seconds would help this issue immensely.

SniffyCube.6107:

I’m going to have to agree… and the whole mindset of nerfing things you don’t know how to play against needs to stop (confusion only did damage when you used abilities and when those players who died after spamming 1 died, they were all up in arms). I would love to see anet buffing different aspects of each class and instead make other builds viable.

Yes, nerfing Confusion was completely unwarranted. I remember watching an Elementalist 2 shot himself because he had 12 stacks of Confusion, and it happened instantly because he swapped an Attunement and attempted to heal.

People never noticed Retaliation damage before; it was subtle. Now everyone is painfully aware of it!

Nina.4596:

avoid someone using a retaliation build.

Basically, if you just stay away from this area you’ll be fine.

Caid.4932:

style.6173:

Caid.4932:

style.6173:

Yeah, retal is a joke. Oh nooo. I got hit for ~300 damage, 15 times, every time i attack.

fixed that for you

You must be a ranger trying to barrage into a zerg.

Or a grenade engineer or a staff ele or a dozen other builds and specs.

Or a Mesmer trying to Feedback a zerg.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Wasnt retal nerfed by 50% along with confusion? Just noticed today that im getting 375dmg from retal.

Retaliation was supposed to have its damage lowered by 33% in WvW. However, Retaliation is not reduced on any map except the Eternal Battlegrounds. (Even the Jumping Puzzle)

Iavra.8510:

Well, currently it’s basically impossible to drop a wall of reflection/feedback in an enemy zerg. Feedback just dropped me from 17k hp to 0 in ~2s from retaliation alone.

That’s how the game works: If the enemy stands in AoE or Reflection, they are rewarded with free damage. Most of the time zergs don’t even realize they down you because of it.

Retaliation just makes some builds and abilities useless. It isn’t about “Don’t mindlessly AoE people with Retaliation;” it’s more like “Don’t AoE, EVER.”

Rob.7624:

There was no exact figures given out by anet, by player testing its 33% ~ 50% in WvW and sPvP.

It is 33%…

Mark Katzbach

Updated confusion and retaliation effects to do the same damage as they do in sPvP

Rob.7624:

You would need a group of atleast 50% guardians running boon duration retaliation builds which involves quite a fair bit of traiting and even then that won’t guarantee you 100% uptime due to the 5 man limit not distinguishing between people who already have retaliation as well as being within range, and no, there are no retaliation shouts of even close to 1200 range.

You only need 20-30% Guardians because 1 Guardian can buff 5 people.

Also, Boon Duration can easily reach and exceed 100% Duration with only one or two abilities slotted. (Source)

I said there are Boons which are provided at 1,200 range, which there are!

Rob.7624:

Nokaru.7831:

Rob.7624:

What you are QQ’ing about is that you want to hit all 5 people with just your 1 skill and not have anything done back to you.

You just want to mindlessly sit in AoE with Retaliation and be rewarded with the free damage for it. We know.

Its basically the only damage my character does.

And by the way, Retaliation was only nerfed by 33%, not 50%.

The amount of application of Retaliation far exceeds Boon Removal. Against a group composed of 20-30% Guardians, you can have Retaliation up 100% of the time.

The most reliably form of Boon Removal is Mesmer Null Field and Necromancer Wells. However, these will only strip 1 Boon every second, and require the enemy to stand in the (comparatively) small AoE (240 Radius); the application of Retaliation (and Boons in general) is usually with Shouts, which have a range of 600+. (Some are 900/1200) And this is to remove a Boon, not Retaliation necessarily. (There are other Boons in the game)

You say you know what the developers intended with Retaliation. Are you saying that Retaliation was intended to stay up indefinitely? Retaliation was meant to be something a character used reactively, and have a short duration so waiting it out is actually an option. In WvW, with all of the extra Boon Duration from being in a PvE environment, this simply does not happen.

There’s a reason posts about Retaliation keep popping up. Before, it was the silent killer since it did not provide clear feedback to the player of when it was doing damage to them. With the new Retaliation graphic, it has been exposed for how frequently zergs get free damage from one boon.

It’s too slow, especially considering it’s character-bound and offers no respecs.

pot.6805:

Ascii.9726:

Score update.

All your PPT are belonging to us (JQ garrison too).

Grats on fighting doors.

Don’t forget the lag. JQ BL is full of that too!

WyldKat.4712:

It’s MAGIC! It’s more the motions than it is the damage. People just happen to be conveniently in the way of the dagger swipe when we want to stealth. That’s all.

More like, a bug. The Walls in WvW seem to be programmed to reduce damage taken from players by 100% in order to let them still be susceptible to damage taken by Siege Weapons. However, since the Thief is technically dealinkittenage instead of “Miss” or “Invulnerable”, the spell is still granting Stealth.

This to me smells like a bug or a really bad flaw in the design.

Previously, you could use Cloak and Dagger even when in Stealth and continue to stack Stealth; since the wall took no damage, it did not cause the Thief to become Revealed. The fix made it so that this does not occur but a Thief can still enter Stealth as per the normal rules by striking a Wall with Cloak and Dagger.

However, it makes no sense that a Thief can enter Stealth by using Cloak and Dagger against a Wall to begin with. If they try this against an Invulnerable entity, they do not gain Stealth. The Thief is dealing no damage to a Wall, so why should they gain Stealth from it?

It’s behaving normally.

It shouldn’t be able to target through Line of Sight, however. That’s likely bugged.

Siphaed.9235:

Why not 80% damage reduction like what was done to player abilities when hitting doors so that Rams became useful….do you not recall that?

Flame Rams don’t take 80% less damage from players. They take 50% less damage from everything. (Players, Cannons, etc.)

Arrow Carts now only do 25% of their normal damage to Flame Rams: -50% vs. siege from AC , and -50% damage vs everything as a Flame Ram.

stof.9341:

Nokaru.7831:

This is the official response by ArenaNet to this issue:

ANet isn’t immune to doing the things wrong.

Aion had a much better and thrilling siege system :p

Doesn’t matter what’s right or wrong this is the answer.