Guild Wars 2

Exciton.8942:

That’s not true. Setting a high HP bar is just a cheap way to make encounter ‘challenging’. It could even be tedious in the end. Doing the exact same thing over and over without mistakes is indeed skill, but do you really enjoy having that skill. It is a game after all.

It’s not the exact same thing. If what you said was true then players would not be wiping at low percentages of the boss. And yet many did.

Just to list a few ways that can also make encounter really challenging.

Boss has more damage: force players to use more defensive stats, strategy to mitigate damage. Make it harder to achieve party-wise optimal dps.

Putting on a different set of gear makes things challenging your eyes? That’s interesting. It’s not that hard to put a different set of gear last I checked.

Boss can actively mitigate damage(active defence, cleanse condie etc): You need to learn to do damage at the right time to make them effective.

Just a way to increase the boss’ is effective health. While interesting in theory, just ends up making players not use their attacks for long periods of time in which is a lot more boring. We already saw this with the Assault Knights, which many players complained about.

Boss has better AI and trying to focus down low HP, low defence players: Party has to watch their members status more carefully.

Here, watch this video this will answer better than I could: (Link)

Boss has better AI and tries to kite melee players: party has to reconsider strategy and achieve balance between range and melee.

There already is an incentive to bring players using range attacks on Pylons.

The worst thing they could do is lower the health. If they want to make it easier, they could extend the enrage time instead. The issue with lowering health is that this reduces the amount of time you have to deal with mechanics, and the amount of time that you could possibly mess them up.

Bri.8354:

Enrage timers in their current state are nothing but a DPS test. Players can have the mechanics down, but if their damage isn’t high enough, the timer kicks in and wipes them all.

This argument is just not true. If you’re getting downed constantly, get constantly teleported away from the Unstable Energy Spikes, or send more people than is necessary to soak the Distributed Magic, all of these are poor play and bad strategy which the enrage will punish you for.

This might come as a surprise to everybody, but damage matters. Damage is actually one of the three pillars of the soft Trinity: damage, support, control. For some reason people think damage does not matter. It does.

Calling players malignant for leaving you dead in a video game is pretty harsh. With regards to your AC example, they were inconsiderate; that’s about it.

If you are asking why players don’t revive others that die on trash runs, it is because it will often get themselves killed unless they do something like use Battle Standard. A Guardian can help by giving out Aegis during the run to try to help players stay out of combat, and Thieves can help a lot to with Stealth. If you don’t have people trying to do this stuff though, it’s pretty much every man for himself.

It’s not like it is a friendly area of effect. It still does damage and can kill people if they are low. It is distinct with regards to the fact that it has a shrinking circle inside it. No other effects in the game has really done that I think.

If the tank minimizes movement, Elementalist can perform very well. Many tanks are running all over the place in the first phase when they don’t need to for example. They also can move more predictably in the second and third phase to make uptime on elementalist damage much higher.

Mitch.4781:

Anet themselves have already done much better work. UW, FOW, the DEEP

Yeah, right. Those instances were nothing but big slogs through trash, often just soloed by overpowered builds or autopilot with heroes.

Malthurius.6870:

Right now; full zerks can clear it, but a full group of zerk/tank hybrids most likely will have a lot of difficulty, and too many defensive stats make the fight impossible.

Malthurius.6870:

There are 2 threads on the forums right now that report their group being dominately zerker.

I’m glad you finally corrected yourself. We agree then, that nobody’s killed this in full berserker.

Malthurius.6870:

Right now; full zerks can clear it, but a full group of zerk/tank hybrids most likely will have a lot of difficulty, and too many defensive stats make the fight impossible.

No group has killed it with full berserker gear.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Sooooo What… the raid fix nerf this guy into the ground? I’m going to be SERIOUSLY disappointed if that is the case…

Maybe you should try it yourself before thinking it was nerfed.

dlonie.6547:

I think everyone’s pretty tired of the “Are they trash or bosses?” discussion (or maybe it’s just me).

It is pretty inarguable to say to anybody that they are not the boss, and to state that the actual boss is the Vale Guardian. The fact that there was confusion to some people is interesting though.

A few raids managed to get in last night when they enable the squads briefly. It was pretty fun watching them progress over the next few hours. Putting that ascended vendor in at the start was a good idea to allow people to try different things for the beta.

Yeah, Protection reduces it too which is what I would expect from the skill since it seems to just be direct damage.

Evapor.6849:

So much denial it’s unreal, if you want yesmen goto reddit please, that way you can censor out if you don’t want to read criticism.

I will make one more (vain?) attempt to help you understand. Some people think that if anybody, even a few people, defeat (or even make progress on!) something then it isn’t challenging enough.

Spoiler Alert: If something can be beaten, it will be beaten unless it is literally impossible. The question is never “Will the best guilds defeat it?” because the answer to that is always “Yes.” The question that actually needs to be asked is “How good do you need to be to do it as well?”

The point is, victory or even progress does not directly reflect upon how challenging something is. You learn more about that by how many people can’t to do it rather than if anybody actually can.

Evapor.6849:

Yeah no-one has pushed 50%

At least you correctly identified what the boss was this time, unlike the other garbage you posted. Err, my mistake; not “garbage”. Bull kitten!

There is something constructive I’ve learned from some of these rage posts. A lot of it comes from people mistaking the trash for bosses. I think that is some pretty interesting. People see Legendary and they think it’s the boss! Maybe they should’ve just made them Champions or something; or maybe their flavor text should’ve indicated they were just minions of the Vale Guardian?

People mistaking the first three trash creatures for bosses is a pretty common mistake.

I talked to one person on Reddit who got the boss rather low, and they seem pretty excited by it. I think many of the guilds that made progress on the actual boss are keeping silent until they’ve seen it to its completion.

Papierkorb.2301:

Nah, I just got the feeling that if the party/squad thingy would work properly, those 3 bosses would be dead within hours.

There’s only one boss there. Maybe you had mistaken the trash for bosses?

Evapor.6849:

I have a terrible memory, but maybe you can point out where I called the raid garbage.

Let’s see! Maybe you didn’t say “garbage.” But! You called it “bull kitten”, “kitten stupid”, you said “10 man is a kittenty organization concept”, made reference to “The same kittenty mechanics”, etc.

I mean, it was pretty easy. All you had to do was search for the word kitten and then I saw all your valuable, backseat, Twitch stream feedback.

I hope my post has helped your terrible memory.

One major bit of feedback I have is that the trash should probably not be Legendary because people keep thinking that they are bosses.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Icebow 5 removes full breakbar in 1 hit. A bit op for a 10 man “end game”.

This is not true. Ice Bow 5 only removes 45-50% of the trash Guardian’s defiance. There are however some skills that are removing the entire thing with one blow, that are a much shorter recharges than Ice Bow.

Test.8734:

Isn’t it interesting that it’s (one more) ArenaNet’s communication mess, and they don’t even bother to fix it on their own official forum, rather somewhere else?

I mean, they could have told people here all about it. But noooooo, looks like Twitter and Reddit are more important.

Sorry, I didn’t realize that this mess started on the forums. Oh wait… It didn’t! It’s started because somebody overreacted on the forums about something they read on Twitter!

Are some people just in perpetual states of indignation and they need to rage about everything people do, or don’t do, or how they do it, or why they do it, or when they do it?

Man, some people are really viciously responding to a pretty reasonable request. This might be with the first time people actually raid anything. It would be pretty disheartening to log on and realize that there are the videos and guides out right away. There is a lot of fun in discovery, something that we can enjoy because there isn’t a “Public Test Realm” to spoil everything. Of course that is strange to say since it is sort of like that…

The best to kill video policy I’ve seen in other games is what some guilds do in World of Warcraft. Their policy is that they wait for the second or third kill before they post a video. The thing is though some of those bosses take up two weeks the defeat instead of hours.

The reason to not post videos right away is to give guilds from other time zones a clean slate to try. If a guild kill something after a video was posted, it’s hard to prove that you didn’t watch it to make it easier for yourself. I think having just something like a 24-36 hour “embargo” would be enough. Of course, in an age where everybody streams everything, this might not happen.

I understand that some people here in this community are really jaded and feel disenfranchised. I don’t really think though that being cynical is that constructive. It’s not the raid teams fault about what happened with Dungeons or Fractals.

(Or is it… Maybe there’s some conspiracy here…)

It just makes me a bit sad to see new developers popping up enthusiastically around here and seeing them shot down by what they might perceive as their target audience. I’m not saying to be hyped, or getting your hopes up. Just remember though that these are people though that (I think) might give you the best shot at the content you want.

Test.8734:

So yeah, saying that ascended gear being grindy is ok because it’s optional is completely irrelevant – by ArenaNet’s own definition, it was not meant to be grindy. Despite how it is.

Is your definition of grind “anything I’m unwilling to do”?

JSmooth.7654:

I stand by my statement

LFM HM DoA, LB R8

Only skill. No time. Ri-ight.

JSmooth.7654:

But when Ascended gear was released, they stated that they had no plans to add another tier of gear. They never said that they would NEVER do it. They stated that Legendary gear will always be top tier.

There is no statistical difference between ascended and legendary, so they didn’t actually break any promises there.

Relshdan.6854:

unless they’re putting agony in raids….or raising ascended stats significantly more above exotic, i can’t believe it will matter once groups figure out the most efficient paths to complete the raid. if they do add in things that will make it actually “required”, not suggested, that would be kind of lame (though not entirely unexpected for the supposed hardest content).

but at this point, who doesn’t have ascended jewelry?

She confirmed there will not be agony in a later tweet. I agree that I cannot fathom any real way they could require ascended armor.

The jewelry and weapons though are something else. They actually do pretty significantly increase your character’s power. If anybody is going to argue anything, they are either going to argue for or against the requirements of the weapons and trinkets. The trinkets come pretty easily just by playing the game naturally so the only thing that will hold anybody up is the weapon.

Ascended armor is literally 50 more stats than exotic equivalent. That’s it. That’s not 50 more to a primary stat, that’s 50 in total combining the primary and two secondary together.

When you look at that and then compare it to the differences between the classes, you only realize there actually is no comparison. There are gigantic disparities between different builds themselves, to say nothing about the differences between builds and classes. If you think ascended armor is going to break the bank, then you just have no concept of how insignificant 50 stats actually is.

Randulf.7614:

The complaint is that gear should not be what will lock people out, skill is. What will happen is

Wow, you have a crystal ball that sees into the future?! Maybe you should use it for something much more meaningful like winning the lottery or saving people from assassination attempts. Why are you wasting it on making extremely accurate predictions of a video game?

Torolan.5816:

Oh my. If you could build bridges and make bread from broken or unfullfilled promises of Anet, especially in the area of “exotic stays always top gear”, every place would be reachable by a bridge and nobody would be hungry. ^^

You know, you could make a massive themepark with the amount of slippery slopes you’re using in your arguments. I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that they are adding a new tier of gear, or removing the mystic force recipes from a tweet saying that you probably should bring ascended gear.

I mean, maybe they’re going to increase the level cap too?! Oh no!

How do you not have ascended trinkets and weapon by now? The game has been out for three years. The armor is pretty pointless unless you wanted you fractals.

There’s no way they could tune anything to require the armor because damage differences in the classes are much bigger than the damage differences in the armor. (It’s like 2 – 3%, if that)

I never thought I would have to say this, but I feel that this skill is not loud enough to convey how powerful it is now. Compared other anti-projectile abilities (Feedback, Shield of the Avenger, etc.) Corrosive Poison Cloud is just too subtle especially if there are other area of effect spells cast on top of it.

If you did not want exclusive rewards something to worry about then you should not have purchased Guild Wars 2. Even before the game was released, they rewarded exclusive Hall of Monuments skins to those that played Guild Wars. This information was clearly at hand. A precedent was set, and nothing was said assuring at this would never happen again. If you purchased the game without knowing this, that is also your own fault for not doing the very minimal research it would’ve taken to uncover this obvious fact.

Are you going to somehow argue that the Hall of monuments rewards should be made open and available to anybody doing anything in Guild Wars 2 now?

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not going to tally posters, but I feel fairly secure that there haven’t been even a hundred unique posters on this specific line of discussion, and of those at least 4-10 of them were generally supportive or ambivalent to the idea of raid-alternative methods of obtaining these items. But even so, a thousand people would still be a drop in the bucket compared to the people that play the game, and in no way statistically representative of them.

If you actually tallied the posters, you’d find that there is a 41 page thread mostly consisting of everybody arguing against you.

Personally I don’t see why that developer was so smug about the nerf. Pretty much everybody knew that skill was over-performing for a long time, and yet sledgehammer “balance” literally years behind, on the brink of an expansion, he thinks is mic-drop worthy? It was pretty cringe worthy honestly.

Yes from what I heard, if your entire raid killed the first boss, in theory all 10 of you could then open a new instance with the first boss killed.

If they are going to keep the five player limited buffs, they should instead look into the potential each profession can have with increasing in their group’s damage. From that point of view, some classes are very strong and others are very weak. A better position to be in would be if any combination of five professions would increase the damage of their party somewhat equally.

The way I think about it is like this: It’s a better situation to be in any combination of two parties of five different classes is a better position to be in then each buff affecting 10 players because the former allows for more combinations of classes than the latter.

The problem is, I sincerely doubt they will ever balance the classes to be that way.

NikeEU.7690:

I can’t wait for Ice Bow to be gone then we get to read all the threads about how useless Thief is as a class in PvE.

Has anything indicated that this will ever be the case?

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps. I never raised Hall of Monuments as an issue, but there is an argument to be made for keeping those rewards exclusive. Still, those rewards were in place at launch, people knew what they were getting into.

Even before the game launched, exclusive rewards were already an established norm in the game. A precedent was set even before the game was released. If you bought Guild Wars 2 knowing how the Hall of Monuments and its rewards worked, then you knew that exclusive rewards were not only possible, but probable. Thus, you should have “known what you’re getting into” as you would say it. If you did not know, ignorance is your own fault.

spoj.9672:

Whether buffs share to all 10 or not i guarantee it will be 2+ chronomancers.

I don’t really play Mesmer that much. Why do you think that these will be that desirable?

Spurnshadow.3678:

Yeah, that video is not zoom hacking. you can aim the AC over the door or through the slits. That’s why you build the treb in the corner of inner.

Yes, that Arrow Cart built next to the inner wall that was nowhere near the gate was able to shoot over the gap. Good job actually watching the video!

morrolan.9608:

Your words:
“You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.
Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)”

As I said above other people might use zoom hacks, the issue is the zoom hacks not DT, and again like I said DT has a short range.

You completely misunderstood the thing I was trying to demonstrate. I was trying to show that once you have a target, whether you acquire it through legitimate (which is what I was trying to demonstrate) or through illegitimate means, such as zoom hacking, the spell will still cast successfully on that target regardless of line of sight.

Also, I don’t really know what you consider “short” range, but 900 range is not short.

morrolan.9608:

By your own words DT has an initial LOS requirement. If you want to argue that can be abused by zoom hacking, well sure it can be but they’re hacking, the issue then is the hacking not DT which still functions as its supposed to. As for its flexibility its range is far too short compared to ACs to be comparable. They don’t operate the same anyway with DT being a single target ability with aoe damage but AC being a ground targeted aoe.

What were my words? It doesn’t have a line of sight requirement, I don’t know what you’re talking about; it has never had a line of sight requirement. My point was just because you cannot see over the wall and target people it doesn’t mean other people can’t.

Sorry friend, but they are never going to get rid of zoom hacking. The only realistic solution is to remove any possible way they can actually use this extra field-of-view advantage. The restrictions planned for arrow carts on their line of sight hopefully addresses this.

I hate to shatter your naïve view the game, but some people do use cheats to see further than they should. Here is an old video demonstrating this!

(Link)

I hope this has broadened your horizons with who plays this game. The only solution is to make more abilities restricted by line of sight.

Jayne.9251:

I know you think you’re absolutely, undeniably right about this, but you’re wrong. Even with idiots using zoom hacks, there are still a ton of viable placements that cannot be targeted from outside, regardless of hack or just extended FOV, you just have to experiment to find them.

I knew saving this old video would I found long ago would come in handy: (Smiles!)

(Link)

But hey, apparently you think that FoV and zoom hacks are just something we need to learn to avoid and deal with!

By the way, feel free to post a video of something proving your point. (Smiley face!)

Oh yeah also, I thought it’s worth it to point out (For those in need it pointed out) that Dragons Tooth, since it has no line of sight requirement, has the same flexibility as an arrow cart; (or at least, pre-nerfed arrow carts) you just need to click on your target, which you can do if you can see what they can see!

In case you still are not following this line of thought, this is the point very simply: If you think Arrow Carts were a problem, Dragon’s Tooth is also a problem.

You do not need line of sight to click on something when you can zoom out 300% extra and see over the wall. This is a pretty ridiculous statement to make; this whole thread was about arrow carts and zoom hacking. The only limitation the targeting something is you need to be within 3000 units of it; that it.

Only thing limiting you is your ability to see the targets, and something that can see more than you through FoV manipulation or zoom hacking will see more and target something they shouldn’t.

You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.

• Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)
• Then, walk out of line of sight of it.
• If you then acquire your target, regardless of line of site you will get target.

By the way, calling something “not an exploit” is really funny. This whole thread is about adjusting something, to add more limitations to it. Sure, it’s “not an exploit” to shoot arrow carts over walls; but guess what, they’re going to do something about it. Dragons Tooth is in the same boat.

Jayne.9251:

If you place it next to the wall and use the window over the gate to hit them, they can’t target and dragon tooth you.

Best way to test out any AC is to stand out side the tower. If you can click on it from outside, then the enemy can do that too.

I think you failed to understand what the problem is. Dragon’s Tooth has no line of sight check. This means that if you place and Arrow Cart within 900 range of the place the enemy can stand, they can destroy it with Dragon’s Tooth. Just because somebody can’t see it through legitimate means doesn’t mean there aren’t people that can’t see it using zoom hacks or large field of view “adjustments”.

In fact, it only takes one person with this “special sight” to be in a group of “legitimate” elementalist and they merely have to just call target on the Arrow Carts and let the Dragons Tooth do the work.

morrolan.9608:

Working as intended but not as designed is contradictory. How was it designed to function?

It’s not contradictory. Fiery Rush is a good example of working as intended, but not functioning as designed. The skill works exactly the way it was supposed to, but players use it in a way that designers did not foresee. If you had a skill that was supposed to remove 3 conditions, but it only removed 1, this would be not working as intended; it would be bugged.

morrolan.9608:

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

I didn’t say it was bugged. Something working as intended (not bugged) doesn’t mean it’s functioning the way it was designed. Fiery Rush wasn’t bugged either, but it’s pretty safe to say the changes they made fixed it.

Here is to hoping that they fix Dragons Tooth before the launch of the expansion after Heart of Thorns!