Guild Wars 2

Blix.8021:

there is no dungeon in this game that you can’t do with 5 necros in the party, don’t join bad guilds with bad players

By that logic, you can clear any dungeon in the game with 5 characters with no armor equipped…does that make guilds and players bad for not wanting to take players with no armor equipped into their runs? This logic is just bad and defeatist before even allowing any thought to be put into a real solution. There is no reasonable/valid justification for intentionally keeping necromancers/reapers on such an uneven footing with other professions in regards to group utility. The only justification even attempted so far (by both players and developers) is flavor/theme. Its just bad design when your flavor/theme directly conflicts with function/design.

Just even out this disparity already so necromancers/reapers can also enjoy instanced group content without having to deal with the miserable experience of getting kicked for simply playing a necromancer/reaper. Its not going to break the game to allow some decent party utility for necromancers/reapers. Allow utilities while shrouded, throw some reflect onto spectral wall and change the fear to a tremble effect if traited/reaper. I think these three changes alone would be enough to break the stigma in dungeon desirability.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

spoj.9672:

My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.

Are you accounting for attack speed from the trait and the ability to recharge gravedigger on low targets? Repeated 2’s are pretty strong! Also necro will have a trait called Rending Shroud that will be putting up monstrous amounts of vuln. Not to mention the traits that make your auto attack in Reaper Shroud cause vuln and might!

At least as far as PvE goes, it seems not to be mentioned that necromancers are not the only ones that will be stacking vulnerability. There seems to be a bit of overkill on the emphasis/importance of the necromancer applying all of the vulnerability and its associated value. There is also the fact that this vulnerability stacking also benefits anyone else attacking the target…including those others with higher weapon coefficients and more % damage modifiers. Don’t get me wrong, I love the vulnerability stacking I’m seeing for necromancers, but it feels like we are letting too much of the necromancer’s potential contribution ride on something that we aren’t even overly needed for.

I think we need something else as a group contribution. It seems ANET is dead set against necromancers providing boons of any sort to the group, so I’m not sure where to go with this. Our active defense contribution seems nearly non existent too. We could at least provide some reflects on something like spectral wall, but I’m assuming that our utilities will still be locked out while in any shroud?

keenlam.4753:

To sum up this thread:

OP plays pve only, he only cares about personal dmg and will stick with the offhand weapons he’s learned to love. He wont use shield because it looks like a support tool in his opinion and will keep trashtalking about it regardless of all the people trying to explain to him how powerful and unique the shield skill (Tides of Time) is.

/thread.

You people are funny. The only trash talk has come from others in this thread. Its pretty funny that expressing my opinion on the value of this off hand versus alternatives has garnered so much behind the keyboard hostility. One would think I had attacked people personally, but oh well. I would like to express appreciation for those few who did manage to provide a civil response…absent of side ways insinuations and implied/overt insults. Ultimately, the poster I quoted is partially correct. I am primarily a PvE player and will likely be staying with off hand weapons that I prefer. What this poster is not correct about is any intention I have of “trash talking” anything. I expressed my opinion on it and clarified my opinion upon being assaulted on this forum for expressing it. The only purpose for this thread was clarification, that could have 100% been accomplished without any of the hostility.

I already know exactly how to think of it. I made the post for a specific reason…to address the lack of effect/mechanic for the caster in a specific situation. If that’s working as intended, then that’s fine…it just means it isn’t the choice for me. I’m not going to resort to insults regarding Azure as that would be childish and unnecessary. There was clearly nothing trollish about my post, so that whole comment just exemplifies the personality of the person who made it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m confused. The recharge is only on the returning wave. There is zero chance you are not hit by the returning wave if you are in melee combat.

I’m of the belief that it does not return past the starting point…which is in front of where you are standing. So there’s a chance if that assumption is correct, but yeah…you can move forward from your casting point to get the return wave. I didn’t notice that the recharge is only on the return wave though…that makes some difference…moving forward is easy enough.

Fay.2357:

Having an opinion doesn’t automatically make that opinion accurate. I like to be accurate.

True statement…having an opinion doesn’t automatically make that opinion accurate. That also applies to your own opinions and statements. Its great that you like to be accurate, but that does not make you right either. Stun is a CC tool…CC is support. Daze is a CC tool…still support. If you have a problem with that simplificaton…then talking with you is a waste of time because its going to fall on deaf ears no matter what anyone tells you. I’m assuming that this hostility is all the result of daring to question you on whether these assertions you made sound like facts are indeed personal opinions concluded from your own observations? I can actually see that conclusion myself as that is exactly what they demonstrated. My reason for posting is to confirm that they really did not intend for the mesmer to gain this quickness/sheild #5 recharge while already in melee combat. I’ll take your given answer into consideration, but hopefully they will either chime in themselves or time will reveal the final/official answer….hopefully in a less confrontational way.

You’re repeatedly called it nothing but a support tool. Since when is an infinite target stun nothing but a support tool?

Again, it is a support tool…regardless of how many targets it has…so long as its primary function is support. Yes, that is an exaggeration as it also does damage, but there are plenty of support tools that do damage..often on much less of a cool down. So yeah, I concede it does more than just support as it also does damage.

You’ve called it trash and, again, nothing but a support tool. I think that’s claiming that it does nothing unique or powerful.

That would be your personal opinion on my personal opinion. While I respect your feelings, that is not a factual statement or accurate. That simply means that I don’t personally think it is unique or powerful enough to value it over alternatives.

No, you really can’t.

This is just a false statement altogether, which completely throws your “I like to be accurate” claim out the window. If you can’t agree that daze is similar in function to a 1 second stun, then again…communicating with you is pointless…like holding a conversation with a brick. Yes, they are different, but they also accomplish similar things. Daze is an effect caused by some skills which interrupts and prevents the target from using skills for a period of time. NPCs who become dazed are forced to remain still for its duration. Stun is a control effect that disables all skills and interrupts any current action. Stunned characters cannot move or activate skills, except those without an activation time, e.g. shouts and some signets. Stun breakers will restore one’s freedom to act. Despite its in-game description, there is no evidence that the duration of stun stacks. Pretty similar if you ask me.

Apples and oranges are both fruit, that doesn’t make them similar or comparable. Dazes still allow movement and dodging, and will take less off of a defiance break bar than stun will. Additionally, as myself and kentigem have stated a couple times already, it’s infinite target. That multitarget ability is something that mesmers completely lack.

Again, I said similar not exactly the same. The target cap is of little relevance to me due to game mode preferences…hence my reference to “trash”. I guess I’ll google the definition of similar for you.

sim·i·lar
?sim(?)l?r/
adjective
adjective: similar

1.
resembling without being identical.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I edited my previous post but ill add this here too. This doesn’t have a target limit. Your mantra cannot stun 30 people. This can.

Edit: Also remember that in normal conditions you will be hit by the wave once, and your allies twice. Your targeted enemy will be hit once and EVERYTHING between you and the enemy will be hit twice.

I can see its value in a WvW environment then if it doesn’t have a target cap. I don’t really WvW or PvP much at all, so it will still have limited value to me. I pretty much log into the game when I’m bored for a few quick high level fractals. The number of targets in such an environment at once are relatively small and they don’t live long to a high dps/synergy team.

Part of my initial post was concerning not getting hit by the initial wave. This scenario involves already being in melee combat when first using ToT. That’s what Fay so politely addressed. Saying that it is not intended for the mesmer to get touched by the wave in that scenario…but for allies only….unless using “complicated maneuvers”. The complicated maneuvers demonstrated by the developers involved starting at range instead and using iLeap + swap to jump through the wave and therefore be in position for the return wave as well. This whole scenario is what really has me turned off on using the shield. I prefer to primarily play melee on my mesmer…so if it isn’t going to benefit my character completely…then I choose to use a weapon that does offer its complete benefits to my character.

Fay.2357:

ODB.6891:

I could accomplish a similar effect with mantras or shatters

No you couldn’t. The only stuns we have are on pistol 5 and the signet. Both of those are single target stuns, though the pistol has a random bounce that can do a bit more cc.

The shield wall will stun everything it passes through…twice, while blocking projectiles and providing quickness to allies.

If you don’t feel that that’s a good enough reason to equip the shield, then by all means don’t equip the shield. I personally don’t think it’s a good enough reason to equip the shield in most circumstances other than a few particular builds/situations, but I don’t try and misrepresent it by claiming that it doesn’t do anything unique or powerful.

I have to love the way you attack people for expressing their opinions, that’s really cool. One I have never misrepresented anything. Two I have never claimed that it doesn’t do anything unique or powerful. What I have said is that I’ll pass on it if it is only a support tool. That’s pretty much what it is if it affects allies instead of the player. And yes, you can get similar effects from other things instead of tying up a weapon slot for it. Daze is a very similar effect to stun. You can get that in multiple ways other than tying up this weapon slot for it. Mantra of distraction can do this twice…without even traiting it…back to back at that…3 times if traited…so yes…I can get similar effects. There is a shatter that accomplishes the same thing…that can be combined with the new f5…so yes.

Without personally getting the quickness from this weapon, I agree with you, its a tough sell to make it worth using this weapon. The alacrity and slow from #4 are very tempting though…the stun is appealing on the #5, but the CD is repulsive…especially without being able to reliably/reasonably use the CD reduction they advertised with it.

My real issue with this is pretty much resolved now if this is something they actually said was intended functionality of not being able to benefit if already in melee range. Maybe I missed that somewhere, but I doubt it as I have reviewed this info multiple times specifically for this purpose.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Um, do you think an elementalist never benefits from phoenix? I am also confused where alacrity is coming into the conversation. You realise its also projectile destruction. So two casts of the skill is 4 stuns and and projectile lockdown on anything between you and the target.

Before I edited the original post, the alacrity I was referring to was the self recharge of the skill 5 by interacting with the wave. About a minute after I posted, I then edited it to say shield #5 recharge instead of alacrity to be more accurate. But yeah, I do realize the wave has projectile destruction built in, which is also accomplished by just using the focus instead…which we do get full benefit from + other benefits. All I’m saying is that if this isn’t going to offer the full benefits to the mesmer itself…then I’ll pass.

Fay.2357:

ODB.6891:

Fay.2357:

Shield 5 is not a personal buff, it’s an offensive skill that you use for stuns with the added bonus of applying quickness to allies it passes through. You’re not supposed to personally benefit from it without doing some complicated maneuvers.

That’s what I needed to hear then. I know I’m not using it then. Anything that gets an exclusive support tag applied to it is trash imo. I am interested in whether or not that is something they said or a personal conclusion from examining its mechanics though?

That also makes it even more frustrating that we only get an off hand out of HoT and it ends up being only a support tool…versus other classes getting an entire package.

An infinite target doubletap stun is support trash? Its offensive capabilities more than justify its use. The quickness it applies is simply icing on the cake.

I could accomplish a similar effect with mantras or shatters + have my second weapon slot free for a more preferred weapon that I would get the full benefit of. I like the pull and the projectile blocking of focus + the aoe cleave damage and whirl finisher of the warden. The phantasm summon on focus is more reliable as well…not depending on a block or having a delay. I like off hand sword for its high single target damage and it also has a block + single aoe daze…on a very low cool down since I will be traiting 1h sword anyway. So yeah, a support tool gets marginalized in my opinion.

Fay.2357:

Shield 5 is not a personal buff, it’s an offensive skill that you use for stuns with the added bonus of applying quickness to allies it passes through. You’re not supposed to personally benefit from it without doing some complicated maneuvers.

That’s what I needed to hear then. I know I’m not using it then. Anything that gets an exclusive support tag applied to it is trash imo. I am interested in whether or not that is something they said or a personal conclusion from examining its mechanics though?

That also makes it even more frustrating that we only get an off hand out of HoT and it ends up being only a support tool…versus other classes getting an entire package.

Okay, I’ve watched the demo videos of the Chronomancer and read through the various threads and blogs. I’ve even posted about this a few times without any resolution yet. What I see is the developer demonstrating our new elite spec with a main hand sword and an off hand shield equipped. I see the profession being played at range with melee weapons equipped. I see him summoning illusions and just sitting back watching the illusions go in dealing pitiful damage. In the bristleback/golem fights, he would periodically iLeap in to benefit from Tides of Time and pop off a blurred frenzy…then immediately move back to range…with a main hand sword equipped. He would swap to staff (in PvE…sigh), but never even attempted our auto attack with main hand sword.

My issue is the functionality of Tides of Time in combination with either of the only two possible weapons to pair it with…considering mesmers only have 2 main hand weapons to choose from. The wave from ToT appears to begin in front of the mesmer…not behind or inside. This means that we don’t get the quickness/shield #5 recharge from its use unless we combine it with iLeap to get in front of it as it is on the way to our target. This then means, by extension, that if we are already in melee combat…at point blank range to our target…that we don’t have any chance of benefiting from the quickness/shield #5 recharge of ToT?!? That would also mean that our party does not get the benefits either…unless they are on the other side of the mob(s) from us using it?!? If we have a scepter equipped, then we have no means of benefiting at all…since the only leap/teleport is on the main hand sword. I know they started advertising (during the Revenant reveal) that they wanted us to have to be more positionally aware using our abilities, but this goes beyond that to non-functionality. The only reason I would ever equip shield over focus/off hand sword, would be for the quickness/alacrity abilities. I already dislike the ranged nature of the shield #4 phantasm, but at least it works properly. Fix shield #5 or demonstrate that it does actually work in melee combat instead of just at range + iLeap. Ideal solution would be to either change the graphic/mechanic to be a pbaoe outbound wave + inbound crash like someone in a previous thread said…this would accomplish the same two touches/double effect that was advertised in the chronomancer demos…similar to the standing in wells for 3 seconds to get benefits. I guess you could also just have the effect of the wave start behind the mesmer casting, so that it hits the mesmer and anyone in immediate vicinity of the mesmer…that just makes it very difficulty to get the iLeap combo finisher off possibly.

Dawdler.8521:

You can fix both weapons by pretty much doing two simple things and ignoring the other flaws:

Make scepter attack without a projectile like Necro scepter.
Make sword attack speed like Warrior sword.

Done.

The speed of the sword attack isn’t a problem at all. It has a great rhythm/pace. It has great function as well (boon stripping). The problem is damage output. They have it very low on damage, probably intentionally, due to expecting us to make up that damage from phantasms. The problem with that is that phantasms are currently a flawed mechanic. By the time you are able to get enough phantasms summoned to equal out the missing damage, either your party has killed the mob and phantasms despawn….or the mob has killed your phantasms. They just need to stop trying to make illusions deal damage and move the damage onto the weapon skills + shatters. If they make illusions invulnerable but deal no damage, this would allow that. It would fix so many problems if they did that. They could just let illusions do their utility functions successfully at that point like all other classes utilities.

Jekkt.6045:

it should just have a base evade like swoosh and burning speed.

I’d agree with this. Death’s Charge should have a baseline evade to make it an effective gap closer for ranged opponents.

MSFone.3026:

Why are there non-mesmers in here giving their feedback on how the traits we are getting are too strong? This is dumb, isn’t it common knowledge that one way to identify a player as not knowing what they are talking about is them claiming mesmers are OP or fine as is? Nothing in this trait line is over the top, it’s crazy people are complaining about the 25% movement minor. It just allows mesmers to run something other than travelers. Given the state we are in griping about that minor is ridiculous. Or are there people who actually main mesmers complaining about that trait?

This^

Its like stockholm syndrome in here. Even other mesmers are complaining about getting this obvious long time issue fixed. Its not like this is suddenly going to put us high on the sustained damage list comparative to meta professions…even if they were running travelers and switched to a more damage oriented rune set. We still have the weakest auto attacks in the game. Complaints about the cc reduction are equally laughable, as they are so concerned that it is in a minor trait?!? Would they be less upset if it was included in a different trait? Are they just upset that it isn’t a standalone trait? I’m honestly tempted to just say remove the cc reduction if 25% cc reduction at the grandmaster level, in a specific trait line, at the expense of the opportunity cost of what they could have included there instead… is so hard to accept. I honestly think they just threw that in to make it worth the grandmaster level status, but I’d honestly not really miss it if they put something else there instead of the CC reduction part.

MailMail.6534:

Inspiration is not my favorite trait line. Guess I’ve broken your record.

I guess i’m supposed to just take your word for it that this is true..

Well, they did include Compounding Celerity, but it sucks. I have never said this trait was OP. I wish people would stop quoting my posts and telling ME that it’s not OP.

Compounding Celerity may be similar, but they serve different purposes. One is in combat movement and the other is primarily aimed at OOC movement with a side of CC reduction thrown in to make it worth the grandmaster level. Just because your post is the one that is used to quote off of, does not mean that every statement made while talking about the topics you mention are directed specifically at you by the way…much easier to quote off one post than reply to 20 different posts individually.

This is factually wrong on both counts. For a class where positioning is everything, an increase in movement and positioning = more power. Also, did you forget the secondary effect of -25% Cripple, Chilled, Immobilize? With no need for Traveler’s, have you thought about combining this with Melandru? Of course, we’re still very susceptible to hard CC, but this secondary effect is pretty awesome!!

Actually it is not wrong on either count. Positioning is not everything, it is important, but so is timing and correct skill usage. So are a lot of things. You also do not “need” travelers runes even before this change. You always have the annoying option to have a focus equipped as a second weapon set. Whether you choose to or not may not be the desirable…but you certainly don’t “have” to use travelers runes.

This also isn’t true. lol While I think this is exactly something we need, our movement trait is definitely stronger than other movement traits. This is sometimes our problem as a Mesmer community. Instead of saying things that are rooted in bias, we should simply say: “yes, this is a stronger trait, but it needs to be stronger because of X reasons in order to compensate for X reasons, thus bringing overall better balance to all professions.”

This is very true. Other professions may not have this combined in one trait, or may get it via a different mechanic, but other classes have definitely had equal or better OOC movement and condi management for years now. I’ll respond to complaints about both being in one trait the same way we have been dismissed about OOC movement for years…mesmers are not profession “x” and profession “x” are not mesmers. Our mechanics are not the same and therefore the traits don’t have to be carbon copies either. What is important is that the functionality be included…even if they have to combine a couple of things on one trait or on one utility/weapon.

You and others have defended Time Marches On wonderfully against players with rabid self-entitlement, but we have to make sure that we’re always attempting to check our bias at the door and argue our case using facts and logic with a tinge of Mesmer flair. When we don’t, it’s easy for others to pick away at our arguments which doesn’t help with Anet already treating us like a forgotten step child for all these years.

I don’t have any bias. I play multiple mains. I actually just rotate which one I play when I get tired of the current one. What I do now is recognize the logic and and facts behind what they finally equalized for mesmers versus other classes. It was illogical and biased to have mesmers be the only profession with such limited and randomized OOC movement speed. It may have suited their theme for chaotic game play, but they apparently realized that function is better than flavor sometimes. The fact is that OOC movement was a glaring omission that no reasonable person could say that wasn’t in need of fixing. Could they have implemented this differently…that’s a definite yes. They could have changed signet of inspiration to have this as a passive…and still may. Either way, this isn’t an unbalanced change. Its at the grandmaster minor slot in a specific trait line…there’s opportunity cost there.

MailMail.6534:

Facts:

• In terms of traits, Mesmer now has the easiest access to a 25% speed increase. This comes packaged with a fantastic side-effect of reducing some CC conditions. This perceived problem could be alleviated if they made it an Adept/Master trait. i.e. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Small-Request-Better-Compounding-Celerity/first#post5063503
• Allegedly, S. Inspiration will see a speed boost of some sorts, bringing it on par with other classes.
• Overcompensating just because Mesmer has been in a bad place for 2+ years does not make sense for the health of the game and only continues the trend of bad balancing.

I’m sorry, but every time I see someone talk about making Time Marches On an adept/master trait, it always seems to be attached to also including it in their favorite trait line instead. That’s the part that seems disingenuous. Yes, it sucks that they didn’t include any similar movement speed boosts in the existing trait lines as well, but there is absolutely nothing OP about this new trait. It doesn’t increase our power, we are still weak against CC…it just helps us move around a lot better. At the end of the day, it is nothing that other professions have not had for years now. People keep saying there is no sacrifice/trade off, but they are wrong. The sacrifice/trade off is that we could have had something in that minor slot that did increase our power or given us some new functionality. Maybe that was in place of the shield trait so many want? Maybe that was in place of a trait to boost 1h sword damage that I want desperately? The sacrifice/trade off was opportunity cost of the trait that this is in place of. This new trait being in chronomancy only is really no different than any other movement speed trait that gets put in profession “x” trait line “y”…and not included in any other trait line in profession “x”. Similar to elementalists getting move speed while attuned to air. The only difference is that they added some compensation for it being at grandmaster level and for our still weak condi removal. I think this is a good trait and good placement for what it gives. If mesmers want this speed/cc duration reduction…then accept the trade off/sacrifice and take chronomancy…I know I will be taking it.

Levetty.1279:

Sword is simple to fix, buff damage, revert blurred Frenzy nerfs and change skill 3 into a leap forward like other gap closers. Maybe leave a clone behind on skill 3 like the skill we were orignally going to get when they first announced the class.

All of this^. Every single bit of it. Not sure how they can’t see this needs to happen.

JonPeters.5630:

Was hoping saying it once was enough but I’ll say it again. This is a work in progress. Try to give feedback based on the utility and synergy of the trait instead of the numbers. Slow every 3rd critical hit could also be every 10th critical hit. It could be 8s of slow instead of two. Obviously these numbers are an attempt to be accurate otherwise we wouldn’t even give them but a lot of this stuff will go up and/or down before HoT is released.

Jon

I think the synergy is fantastic. The utility is great too…with the exception of what looks to be a broken mechanic with iLeap and shield #5 when you are already in point blank melee range. I love the synergy with the slow traits and danger time.

I’m loving the support for phantasms combined with shatter. I was one of those players that would only shatter in extremely rare circumstances. Now with the alacrity on shatter, I’ll be shattering as much as possible. I think it was a great idea to give a functional incentive to use the class mechanic and to make the class mechanic work better with phantasm builds. I do have some misgivings on having to trait to make a core mechanic to all mesmers (phantasms) work with the definitive core mechanic for mesmers (shatters). I was under the impression that things that were core functionality to every build of a class, should be baseline. Phantasms meet that criteria in my opinion. It clearly gained developer attention, as a true problem, for this trait to exist at this point as well. Every mesmer suffers when they have to shatter phantasms…as phantasms have a significant portion of our utility and damage tied into them. I would even say signet of illusions’ 50% passive has the same issue…fixing a core problem with a core mechanic. Things like this scream baseline imo.

The movement speed grandmaster minor is amazing. The one thing that has driven me away from playing my mesmer was feeling like the slowest kid on the playground. This has fixed that problem.

I think the wells are a solid addition to the mesmer/chronomancer. The utility and synergy are nice, its just a numbers issue with them and their trait, so I’ll leave it at that.

apharma.3741:

All nice ideas but what I’d rather see is the precision aspect removed and sword skills deal bonus damage to targets with no boons.

-20% CD, Sword skills do 50% more damage to boonless targets.

And yes, it is painfully obvious I’m thinking of PvE but hey, it’ll take a lot of skill getting that damage buff going in PvP.

P.s. Before someone cries OP, you will still do a lot less than the normal auto attack from other classes.

This would be great. They definitely need to strengthen 1h sword. The precison is very weak on that trait. That’s only like 2% chance to crit. I love the CD reduction on it though…pretty much the only thing keeping my mesmer alive in melee…moar blurred frenzy.

One thing that concerns me though is the way 1h sword interacts with the new shield #5. All the demos of the new chronomancer specialization showcase 1h sword+shield, but they all have the mesmer camping range with this melee weapon equipped. This was all apparently set up to showcase how iLeap interacts with Tides of Time. It works great when the mesmer starts at range and iLeaps into the Tides of Time wave. It gives the option for the double alacrity from the wave. The issue I have is what happens when you are already in melee combat and try this? Do you even get the alacrity from the wave once? Obviously you can’t iLeap past the melee target in front of you…unless there are more targets further in front. The wave just starts in front of you and then comes back and stops in front of you again..unless you move forward past the melee opponent just to touch the wave. This seems broken, especially considering they showcased the chronomancer using 1h sword+shield and it apparently does not work unless you try playing ranged…despite having a melee weapon equipped. Maybe I’m looking at this all wrong, but it just seems like a failed mechanic. What’s worse, it seems like this has been completely overlooked due to poor presentation and lack of play testing.

I’m actually impressed with the new trait layout, but very underwhelmed with the Improved Alacrity trait and All’s Well that Ends Well. Everything else looks amazing. I guess I have to wait and see how much the miniscule amounts of alacrity we are getting actually benefit us. I think the trait has to have a meaningful increase for it to be worthwhile though.

I’ve been considering taking Danger Time instead of Improved Alacrity, but it appears Danger Time + Lost Time is the path for low direct damage geared players…as taking that combo with zerk/assassins wastes way too much crit chance. 90+ % crit chance is just excessive and wasted. It looks like Improved Alacrity + Chronophantasma is the path for zerk/assassins, but the alacrity numbers are suspect.

All’s Well that Ends Well is just flat out underwhelming. I can’t see anyone actually taking that. It doesn’t reduce well cool downs. It has extremely weak and delayed condi removal. At the very least, it should either pulse condi removal of 1 condi per pulse…or it should just give and pulse a decent duration of resistance (someone else had this idea). I’m more in favor of the resistance option so it won’t steal the thunder of null field (someone else had this idea too).

I can’t even express how excited I am for Time Marches On. Finally not having to move in slow motion without the focus equipped or random signet of inspiration procs is amazing. Thank you Robert Gee.

It looks like I will be giving this new shatter + direct damage hybrid build a go in HoT. It looks interesting at the very least.

skullmount.1758:

And mesmer elite now is still more op than the guard one…
Free travelers rune speed (without even having to chose between that and something else trait wise) while guards just get only a 10% damage with a condition of needing to be greater than 600.
How come guards don’t get a speed trait?
Yeah, that seems fair…

Maybe because you guys already have two utilities granting full swiftness + stackable/low cd swiftness on staff + excellent weapon and utility based mobility skills. Not seeing room for you guys to complain. On top of that, you guys got your one weakness fixed with a true ranged weapon…much better than scepter. You guys still keep your meta spot with much better sustained damage than us and much better support than us. You really have no grounds to complain.

MSFone.3026:

Also this doesn’t actually seem like that much alacrity :-/ The increase should be like 50-100%, not 33% (i.e. 1.5 or 2 seconds per shatter).

This^

With these extremely tiny values for alacrity, it feels like they just gave us a placebo…just to make us think we were getting something useful. I’m extremely doubtful these tiny amounts of alacrity are going to have any meaningful impact on our individual or group contribution. I’m also doubtful that we will even get any credit for anything less than a whole number of alacrity increase…ie 1.99 seconds of alacrity. Will that just round down or round up? Why not just give us some decent values for alacrity so we can actually notice it helping? 100% instead of 33% of a 1 second buff certainly wouldn’t be game breaking….especially when we are talking about personal alacrity…not even team alacrity. Especially when we are dealing with 45 second cd utilities.

I’ve been going over the Tides of Time, shield #5 mechanic, from a melee perspective and something seems off. If you initiate this ability at point blank (melee) range, it doesn’t seem possible to get the two touches of the wave ANET has been advertising. I’m assuming that just initiating the wave does not give you a “touch” to provide alacrity. I’m assuming you actually have to get in front of your own wave to let it hit you from behind for the first “touch” and then just continue fighting for it to hit you again on the return path. If you are already in melee range when you initiate it, then that first touch does not happen..only the return touch. I think the poor demonstration in that POI covered that up because he was playing ranged with a melee weapon (1h sword). He started off at range and then used iLeap to get the first touch. If this is how shield #5 really works…they need to rework the mechanics…maybe implement it like the OP of this thread has described with the splash/ripple effect originating at the center and then collapsing back on itself for the second touch.

Shield #4 is pretty suspect as well. A one hit block is pretty terrible…at least from a melee perspective on a light armor profession. I’d be more okay with it if upon the block you got distortion for a couple of seconds…or if it was a multi-hit block instead. I’m more in favor of the distortion option as it fits the mesmer more. The distortion option would allow the summon of the phantasm upon block, without having the phantasm cancelled by dodge, interrupt, death, etc.

Quadox.7834:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Quadox.7834:

No, the block might be too strong, depending how how long cast time.

Warriors’ shield stance is three seconds and isn’t too strong. Alternatively, it could block three attacks like guard’s focus or only block one melee attack and block ranged attacks for the duration like warriors’ riposte.

Ill take the block sure, but mesmer is not warrior. Let’s not talk about giving warrior stealth.

You are 100% correct, “mesmer is not warrior”. Does that mean those cleaves or aoe is going to give us a pass because we are not warriors? Yeah, stealth is fine when you are out of melee range or not caught in an aoe. Stealth is not so great otherwise. You are comparing apples to oranges when comparing stealth to a multi-hit block. Yes, comparing warriors to mesmers is also apples to oranges, but the situations in which you need a multi-hit block do not distinguish which class you are playing…so the situations are apples to apples. It would be a different story if stealth made you immune to damage…and note I am not asking or advocating for that…just saying the situations when you use stealth vs when you use a multi-hit block are different.

Necrotize.2974:

Don’t count them out too quick. If I’m not mistaken, we still haven’t seen any traits related to wells. I personally would love something like “While standing in wells, condition duration on allies is reduced by X%, and condition duration on enemies is increased Y%”. Would fit well(heh) with the duality of chronomancer while also providing a useful effect useful across several game modes.

Sure wells have the inherent issue of being stationary and usually highly telegraphed, but MH sword mesmers have immobilize, and lockdown mesmers who take CI shouldn’t have too much trouble keeping someone in a well for most of the duration, or at the very least pulling someone in for the final tick. And with Continuum Shift allowing for double casting of wells, if my enemy really wants to stand off point for 6-7 seconds while my wells are ticking, that’s fine by me.

I’m still trying to envision taking at least recall and possibly action because I do see the synergy with mh sword (leap finisher, immob). I don’t even have a huge issue with the stationary nature of wells…its just the need to continue standing in it for 3 seconds to get the benefits. I’d be more on board if they were front loaded instead of back loaded in regards to things like alacrity, quickness, distortion. I don’t mind the damage being spaced out, but it should be evenly spaced over the three pulses…not primarily on the last pulse. The issue I have with waiting for supporting traits is the idea that we need to use all our trait choices in chronomancy just to fix chronomancy. We already know about the traits to fix shatter…one for illusions and one specifically for phantasms. That leaves us a total of 4 more traits in this new specialization. I’d really appreciate some exciting and effective traits…ones that change your game play…more so than ones to fix otherwise weak utilities or conflicting design (shatters/phantasms).

More and more, the answer is looking like a resounding no! There are just too many things wrong with the mesmer version of wells.

1. Ground targeting
2. Long cool downs
3. Back loaded effects
4. Being expected to stand in it to get the benefits
5. Superior competition for those utility slots
6. Light combo field on the healing well + being expected to stand in it!
7. Cast times

I really want to give the new stuff a try, but they are really making it hard to do so. Even in the demo videos they have released…all of the chronomancer fights have been ranged…even when wielding a sword+shield. That is a clear indication they are lacking in knowledge/perspective on what it means to actually use the 1h sword…as it is a melee combat weapon. Melee combat is fast paced, meaning cast times and delayed effects are bad. Ground targeting is bad in melee combat as well as it takes your focus off of things happening around you, to focus on placing that ground targeted effect in the right place…for those few seconds. Not paying attention to things happening around you, or being delayed in dodging/activating an ability…can mean being downed in melee. They pretty much need to rethink every one of these limiters they are putting on mesmer wells. Make the ground targeting a toggle-able option…pbaoe should be the default. Get rid of the back loading of damage/effects…if we are clicking it…we need it now not 3 seconds from now. 45 seconds is way too long for well of recall and well of precognition…at this rate…we would need every one of our new traits to compensate for design issues for the chronomancer to even be playable. They already have two of the traits just to allow shatters to work in a reasonable manner with phantasms/illusion builds..we don’t have much room left for traits we actually want to take.

I spend so much time talking about melee because that is how the Chronomancer was introduced to us…sword and shield. The new weapon we received with the Chronomancer was the shield…and as we already know we only have two main hand weapon choices. Melee also just happens to be the optimal play style in the content I enjoy in this game…and in general. Wells are the new utility they introduced for this new specialization, so you would assume they would make them seamlessly functional with it…but I guess we all know what happens when you assume.

I had envisioned playing Chronomancer to do some respectable melee damage while providing the groups support that we currently lack. I was thinking that alacrity and quickness would be the keys to doing that, but between the cool down on well of recall, the mechanics on the ichronomancer (both the summoning and its attack), and what appears to be extremely limited durations of alacrity/quickness we can generate…especially the amount we can share…that’s looking like a slim chance too.

Honestly, if you are really expecting us to stand still for 3+ seconds every time we use a well, then all wells need distortion upon cast…not 3 seconds later. All wells should have alacrity and possibly quickness.

I’m still planning on forcing myself to take well of recall due to the group alacrity. I would like to use well of action for group quickness, but I’m not sure I can be that selfless since neither of these two group support wells offers a stun break and both have all the negative drawbacks I’ve mentioned above. I’m definitely not taking well of calamity since all it offers are some condis I can do without and some damage (no alacrity, no quickness, no boons, no stun break)…plus there are much better utility choices. There’s no possibility of me even trying well of eternity. I find signet of ether and ether feast to both be superior heals in PvE compared to this. I need spike damage healing. Well of eternity being light field does not help much either. Gravity well seems decent, but I’m not sure it beats time warp in effectiveness….unless there is a boss that requires stability.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

This would be a major change and will sound crazy because I’m just thinking out loud, but what if they changed phantasms so that they do the same damage as clones, i.e. zilch, and instead made them all just provide boons, conditions, or effects? Removing the damage would require no additional changes to some phantasms like phantasmal zerker. It would still cause cripple like it does now, just without the damage. Others like iWarlock or swordsman would need changes, e.g. iWarlock would increase damage done to enemies within its range or maybe cause vulnerability. Swordsman might grant might to nearby allies with every attack or cause bleeding. Maybe the warden could cause slow or grant protection with its attacks. Duelist might blind with attacks.

What is the point? Removing damage from phantasms would allow buffing the mesmer’s personal damage to reasonable levels. The death of phantasms would not drastically affect the mesmer’s damage like it does now. Ramp up times for damage would go away. Depending on what the individual phantasms do, it could also make phantasm gameplay less passive and more interesting both in PvE and WvW/PvP. In PvE the mesmer could do damage comparable to other classes without being so dependent on phantasm damage, but the conditions, boons, or effects created by phantasms could be supportive which would fit the mesmer’s current PvE role. In WvW/PvP, the effects could give gameplay options for support or holding points as well as offense. In WvW zergs where phantasms get destroyed quickly at least the mesmer could still do reasonable damage.

Again, just thinking out loud…this could be a terrible idea that I just haven’t thought through. It would be a huge change so it would be unlikely to be implemented even if not terrible.

I like this idea. It has already been suggested a few times on these forums in one way our another. Currently, they are putting too much responsibility onto the phantasm mechanic. They want them to be shatter fuel, support, and dps. Something’s got to give…those things often conflict. How can they be support if you shatter them? How can they be dps if you have to skip the dps phantasm traits to get support ones? How can they be anything if they get instagibbed in aoe/cleave? I think they just need to make phantasms do zero damage but also be immune to damage. They should only apply their support effects (boons, reflects, conditions). I think the new trait to make phantasms not die upon first shatter should be baseline…its a trait that has a huge impact on all mesmers. Its the same reason they made IP and IE baseline.

Making these changes would do exactly like you said…allow them to let the actual mesmer do decent dps and not be held back by all the negatives associated with phantasms. No more ramp up time for dps (cranking out phantasms on each target). No more kitten dps because all your phantams keep getting one shot. More active play, as you have to do the damage yourself instead of watching your phantasms do it. They could actually buff 1h sword to decent damage levels if they did all of this.

apharma.3741:

I’d buff Mesmer sword auto by 25% against targets with no boons and the final hit that already does more damage against boonless targets being 25% harder. I doubt this will be a problem in PvP.

Compounding power buffed to 5%.

Mantra trait being a 10% damage buff when you use a mantra, doesn’t stack and lasts 10s (think like arcane lightening but different)

That’s what I would do in the current PvE environment. We have no idea what HoT will be like though and all bosses might have fast refreshing boons (every 2s) which makes sword bad.

Fragility now pls.

Maybe a trait that makes phantasms deal no damage but you receive a 25% damage buff for 15s for each shattered phantasm. Again, no stacking. Just as a way to spice up the class to move away from phantasm damage. Though I figure this would be OTT in PvP and get wine.

This^

They really need to provide a build option to shift the damage onto the mesmer and not split between phantasms so much. 1h sword really needs the damage buff. I like the option of no damage for phantasms/illusions at all. Maybe limit it to one phantasm out at a time + clones and have the phantasm just provide its utility…without the damage contribution. Have shatters provide no damage with this option…just the utility of the shatter itself…especially with IP baseline.

Astralporing.1957:

ronpierce.2760:

jessiejay.3625:

Dont suggest such a bad idea. Critical chance is fine the way it is.

There are enough nerfs in this game.

I disagree. The new trait system is the biggest power creep the game has seen.

…where? All i can see is a nerf to stats, and a removal of some builds (without making remaining builds any stronger).

Remember, they straight out said, that the base stat upgrade, and increases to stats on armor will only make up for part of the loss from removing stats on traits. Part. Not all.

You are not seeing here an increase in power, but a hidden stat nerf.

I have to agree with you on the likelihood of a hidden stat nerf. Its extremely unlikely that there will be 300 power/precision/ferocity/toughness/healing power/etc redistributed between gear and baseline stats.

I would love an option in settings to turn off/on ground targeting of all such abilities. I prefer to play in melee range if at all possible, and that extra second or so of having to target where such abilities land can be critical. I see that being even more of an issue with the addition of wells on the mesmer.

Gav.1425:

PVE

Bosses kill illusions too quickly, gutting phantasm IE mesmer pve damage.

>>Give us an F5 shatter that gives all of our illusions distortion for x seconds (3~).
>> The shatter should then proc all the new shatter synergy crap they’re adding for us so Phan builts will have a use for shattering.

Mesmer’s need to offer more value to their PvE group.

>>Phalanx (from warrior) should have been a Mesmer trait. Why the kitten would they give warriors Empower Allies (+150 power to allies), banners, vuln generation, AND the ability to perma stack 25 might? All on one class?

>>Mesmer should have gotten something in GS Mastery like might on crits with GS and a GM trait sharing might to allies (IE Phalanx). I see they are giving us something similar with Illisionary Inspiration (whenever you cast a phantasm, cast signet of inspiration aka copy all boons on you to allies – Inspiration GM trait)

>>Another option is a trait that gives an effect like empower allies but based on having phantasms out. Different stats maybe per each phantasm (ie zerker gives power, dualist precision, warden gives feroc… or w/e) gives a trait-buff that stacks up to 3 times. 100 per stack, 300 total because it’s hard to keep 3 phan up.

TW

>When TW got the nerf from 100% to 50%, it should have had the cooldown reduced. Since they are making the glamour cooldown trait innate/built in, and TW is a now a glamour, I’d like to see the cooldown reduced.

Let’s hope alacrity will get us higher on the need list without making us alacrity buff bots.

I’m on board with the idea that they should have baked in the phantasm survival on first shatter trait. Every mesmer build has to use phantasms to some degree, and all of them suffer without this new trait. There really should be something else specific to chronomancy in that trait’s place. Too much mesmer utility is tied into phantasms for something like this trait to be optional.

I can’t help but agree on the problem with phantasms dying too quickly to bosses. If they made the phantasm survival on shatter trait baseline, then using the current f4 shatter would take care of that enough to keep a minimum of phantasms active even on bosses…would just require skill/timing to use it when the boss would normally do some aoe and blank all your phantasms.

I’ll never hate on another profession and their group utility, so I have no problems with what other professions bring. I think they have us on the right path with alacrity and quickness to bringing desired utility to groups…its just an issue of how they tune alacrity and quickness as to whether or not it is enough to make a worthwhile impact on the group.

I don’t think GS should be a weapon that focuses any more than it currently does on group boon generation…as it is by default…a weapon that you use when not in proximity to your group. It already has GS #2 that generates might for those in proximity to the clone generated anyway.

I’m against loading any more of our utility to any phantasm due to all the issues with phantasm survivability…especially not to specific phantasms. I think more of our utility should go directly to the mesmer’s weapon skills and shatters by default. This would make it less of a handicap when illusions get destroyed quickly. This would put us more in line with other professions…requiring less ramp up just to break even.

I have high PvE hopes for alacrity. I’ll have fun trying to find a direct damage build tied into chronomancy to be effective/efficient in PvE. Maybe they’ll listen a little more to what we are saying and also maybe they’ll include some direct damage choices in the chronomancy line.

Yakubyogami.7586:

In no properly (or even reasonably) balanced MMO has a hybrid/utility ever matched a pure DPS. Ever. It’s been that way for at least 16 years and will remain that way probably forever.

The Mesmer is not a DPS class. It never was. The three main DPS classes are Thief, Warrior and Elementalist. Others can come close, but the more utility they have the farther behind they fall. if you’re in a group/guild that ONLY cares about numbers then you should bail ASAP. They either A) Treat the game like a job or have no appreciation for that one guy that is protecting them, helping them or is the only one left alive after they all croaked and ends up soloing the last 20-50% of a boss because the rest of them don’t know how to play.

Anyone that compares Mesmer DPS to an actual DPS class needs to play another (non-MMO) type of game. Age of Wushu is good if you have the ping, that entire game is based around PvP and pure DPS

You do realize the core of this game was designed on the principle that there are no hybrids, pure dps, support classes, healers, tanks, etc. You’re telling others they need to go play a different game…I think you have that backwards. Every class in this game is designed to do all of these things at once. The design is such that every class can shift their focus, to an extent, more towards one or more of these extremes…but can never completely ignore any of these aspects. The focus of this thread was just an analysis of the dps side of mesmers when compared to other classes…and the viability of the ramp up required just to break even. This thread appears to be just to shine a spotlight on the inequity of the design…which is real.

This is just sad. People actually spend their time and effort worrying about ways to nerf sets they don’t even use lol. What is this really about? Are people actually upset that even when they run around in nomad gear, they actually end up doing some damage…forced group contribution? You do realize that there is no increase for those running zerk/assassins builds right? The only builds that are going to get a default increase are those that were running zero/minimal damage builds. I find it impossible to see a downside to this change. They are just making it harder for you to make your groups completely carry you…they are doing it in the best way possible…by increasing your default damage output when running zero damage builds. How can you possibly have a justifiable complaint about that?

Just for reiteration:
1. Zerk/assassins builds get no actual increase by the reallocation of stats from traits to gear/base.
2. Weak builds get a little more default damage stats…inspite of still running weak gear.

Are you really complaining about being less of a burden on your PvE instance groups?!? Its not like you can’t still role play as a healer or tank in any game mode. Its not like PvP game modes favor zerk/assassins at all…they still highly favor survival gear. How much of a crit % do you actually think baseline stats are actually going to get? 2-3% at most! That’s hardly enough to come to the forums nerf begging about. That’s almost nothing…especially if you are geared up in nomad with no precision on your gear anyway. I’m sorry, but this argument is pretty ridiculous. This stat reallocation was actually a smart and well thought out change by ANET.

You guys are just searching for something to complain about…complaining about mechanics you haven’t even seen the final numbers on. Nobody but ANET has any real numbers on how strong, or weak, alacrity is going to be…as the traits aren’t even announced yet. I’m just going out on a limb and assuming that’s what you mean by your exaggeration “super utility skills”. Its mind numbingly sad to see threads like this pop up with no actual basis in fact or even logic. Its even worse to see people jump on the bandwagon when someone comes up with this stuff.

Windwalker.7421:

Hmm I think with quickness the 1h Sword AA will be pretty strong, especially on boonless targets, and alacrity will reduce CD on BF, which means both more defense and offense in melee. (Which in turn synergizes with the post-evade trait, getting you 1.5s of reflection.)

I don’t think it fits the Mesmer to have brute-force traits that make us hit like Hulk, but rather we’re manipulators/controllers.

The combination of slowing your enemy and boosting your own attack speed, as well as CD reductions, fits Mesmers perfectly and can do just as well -if not better- then simple DPS increases.

Just my 2 cents. This is not the profession for 1-button victories. cough Heart Seeker cough

Its got nothing to do with “hitting like the hulk”. Currently, our melee is probably the weakest of any profession due to lack of % modifiers on any weapon damage trait. Our only % modifiers are on illusions and shatters. Both of which are notoriously bad for group content and sustained damage. Just like has already been said, alacrity and quickness have the opposite effect on blurred frenzy’s defense. They both have a minimal effect on direct damage output on low damage attacks….namely 1h sword…due to the aforementioned lack of direct damage modifiers and low base damage on this weapon for mesmers. All I’m saying is that there should be a build option with some melee damage..that doesn’t depend on phantasm damage primarily.

That comment about mesmers being manipulators/controllers may as well mean “support class” as far as this game goes. Assigning roles is exactly what this game is not about. Everyone is supposed to damage, support, and control at the same time. One of the main points ANET made when they started talking about the elite specializations was to fill in gaps in each class….to allow all classes to enjoy all playstyles. The two gaps we currently have are support and direct damage. The new Chronomancer elite spec seems to offer good support with alacrity and quickness, I would just like to see a splash of direct melee damage as an option in there too.

I’m just going to throw it out there, that I’d love to see a direct damage trait not related to shatters or phantasms, show up as an option in Chronomancy. Preferably something boosting 1h sword to some decent damage levels. I’d just love to have this as an alternative to putting all my direct damage hopes and dreams into the illusions basket. Maybe in the same bracket as an illusion or shatter damage trait to make it a choice. Since Chronomancy is going to be heavily based on alacrity and quickness, it would make sense to make our melee do enough to make alacrity and quickness effective.

I’d say focus on getting to 80 above all else as this class is painful to play until you have access to all the tools.

Ansau.7326:

…
Well of Eternity (healing) would also be good if it was a water field.
Well of Recall (Alacrity) and Well of Precognition (Unblockable attacks) have way too long CD’s for what they do.
…
I expect a trait that makes Wells 1200 range and grant 1 extra pulse. If we compare them with Necro’s wells, these are really a bad version of them.

This^ …especially the water field idea for Well of Eternity.
We also need a blast finisher on a 1h weapon besides torch.

I get the complaint about the f5 shatter. I think they should have semi-replaced one of the existing shatters with the new f5 shatters for chronomancers…instead of just tacking on a new shatter for people to complain about. For example, I think all shatters should do decent damage. That being the case, why not merge some existing shatters and have the the new f5 effect be a modification of the current f4 shatter. You could merge the damage of f1 into all of the other shatters. This would bring it down to 3 shatters total. All 3 would do respectable damage, but have their own unique effects at the same time. You would eliminate the new button for people who don’t spec chrono to target. The new and future elite mes specs would just swap out an extra effect on an existing shatter.

I prefer alacrity. I still think they need to implement main hand pistol at some point, but I’m happy with alacrity for now. That is, if they make sure to make it strong enough to be as desired as what other professions bring to groups. That is also assuming they don’t nerf it into uselessness due to bads complaining all day about imaginary OPness.

I think they have been listening, and I’m more in alignment with that belief now that I’ve seen some of the Chronomancer’s information. I’m going to have to hold my final opinion until they give all the details and until I can rest reasonably assured that they aren’t going to also listen to the ridiculous nerf cries, that are out in full force, before the information is even completely revealed.

My main concerns at this point are the apparent short durations of alacrity, long cool downs of apparently all our new abilities, remaining/unannounced traits to support the Chronomancer, and our direct melee damage output as a Chronomancer.

Just judging by the tool tips I have seen so far involving alacrity, the effects seem very minimal. I’m not a math guy, so I’m just going to hope they balance it so that it isn’t so minimal that it isn’t worthwhile to bring alacrity to the table. Considering the fact that we will be balanced around alacrity, it needs to be as strong as benefits other professions bring.

This is a fast paced game… a lot happens in a few seconds. That being the case, I’m not a fan of long cool downs. Long cool downs end up meaning that those shiny new buttons will end up being waffled over in regards to holding back on using them…trying to find the perfect moment to actually use them. That’s usually going to mean they get used way less frequently than they actually could…to avoid having them on a cool down when you may need them in a pinch. I’m not really a fan of ground targeted aoe, but the wells do look nice. I’m just skeptical about the cool downs and relative output. PvE can generally be a zerg fest, so it is important to have decent availability of the limited slots we have. I’m aware that alacrity is supposed to play a part in this, so that’s why I’m hoping the effect is significant if played properly.

I see that the Chronomancer looks to be focused on shatters, and I don’t mind adjusting to use our class mechanic more now. What I don’t want is to have damage relegated to shatters primarily. I prefer more direct damage. I currently run a sw+foc phantasm direct damage build for PvE, but I would love to see more of our damage shift back to weapon skills. I would love to have sw+shield as my main set. I just think its time to allow more focus on direct melee damage dealing, versus shatters/condi. It looks like alacrity may be tied to this as well, as it should decrease weapon cool downs and I see a well with quickness. We just need some % damage modifiers in our new Chronomancer traits.

I can see Chronomancer shatters as similar to guardian virtues. They are our group support option in combination with wells. Guardians just tend to keep their damage output while providing exceptional group support. I hope we can be the same.

keenlam.4753:

ODB.6891:

I have no problems at all with PvE moving away from “passive play”.

Then let me explain to you how you would rejoice as PvE mes got buffed with this change.

A phantasm build usually specs into Domination, Dueling and Inspiration. With the new system, one could still spec in same traitlines and get more out of it as I explain below.

1) Change to Empowering Mantras and Harmonious Mantras gm traits:
the new HM is a combination of both but the dmg bonus got reworked to now provide Ferocity bonus stacks, from what I know it would mean not only the mesmer gets the dmg boost but also our phantasms. (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)
The trade-off ofc is this dmg boost uptime is reduced compared to the old EM where u slot and camp with your mantra charges and I believe you would agree with me this is not a healthy playstyle.

2) Change to Mender’s Purity:
This trait now activates Mantra Cleanse, which in turn will proc HM give u 1 additional ferocity stack. So basically whenever u use mantra heal, u get 2 stacks.
Great synergy here. And more healing to keep your teammates and/or phantasms alive.

3) More access to reflect:
No one can deny mesmers excel in reflect role in a group and we just get even better now. Reflect dmg is scaled with Ferocity so again this synergizes with HM trait.

4) More ways to share boons including the new Quickness boon without the need to sacrifice any dmg potential of your own.
So if a warrior can gain 25 stacks of might and share it to the group, a mesmer can gain Quickness and share it too. Both classes act as dmg amplifier without overlapping their roles (so they dont make each other redundant). 2 PS warriors would be less optimal then 1 PS warrior and 1 boonshare mesmer. How about that?

And lastly,

5) No more fear of stat loss when speccing into a traitline
Thanks Anet for this decoupling of traitline and stats.

Right now a mantra PvE build would spec 6/6/x because u can grab all the offensive stats. Meanwhile, the x/6/0/5/x phant PvE build while being more versatile clearly has less offensive stats.
With the new system, u can spec whatever traitline to optimize your dmg thru traits. I know its crazy right?

I can see one of the new PvE mantra/phantasm meta builds would be like Dom/Dueling/Inspiration (6/6/0/6/0 in our current notion).

Domination: Empowered Illusions, Furious Interruption (to gain Quickness so you can share), Power Block (more ways to deal dmg on your own).
Dueling: Phantasmal Fury, Blade Training or Evasive Mirror, Harmonious Mantras
Inspiration: Mender’s Purity, Warden’s Feedback, Illusionary Inspiration.

Mesmers would have new role in group (dmg amplifier thru quickness boonshare) while strengthing their old role (reflect).

TL,DR: For people think that your dmg get nerfed in PvE, may I suggest in the new trait system:
- Grab Harmonious Mantras, Mender’s Purity traits
- Equip Mantra of Recovery and Mantra of Pain
- Put Mantra of Pain on auto-attack
So now you can deal more dmg on your own, stacking ferocity for even more dmg while healing 2k every 5s. Meanwhile your phantasms do their own thing as they have always been doing.

All I see is Mantras repeated again and again, while still having to deal with phantasms/illusions. Worst of both worlds in my opinion. I may be personally biased, but I absolutely hate the mechanics of mantras. I hate having to worry about charges on them. I hate having to channel them to have them ready again…either in our out of combat. I hate having them forced on me to be effective. I think I hate the concept of having to spam them during combat (and then have to deal with the resultant channeling to get them ready again). I also don’t think the changes to them will really equal a net gain for us dps wise due to having to stop and channel them during combat. Even if they did, I still hate being forced or coerced into loading up my utility bar with mantras versus other utilities I would actually rather use.

I actually like not having to worry about stats associated with trait lines anymore…that was a huge and positive change. I don’t know if I said that in this thread already, but I have in multiple other threads. I have also said multiple times that I think their changes are great as a whole…I just think that PvE mesmer’s are getting the short end of the stick here. Its like the developer who does mesmer balance has his/her brain stuck on mantras and PvP.

Windwalker.7421:

…it seems to me that people are simply resistant to the fact that Anet is deliberately moving away from passive play for the Mesmer and that this naturally affects Phantasm builds. (PvE and PvP!)

I have no problems at all with PvE moving away from “passive play”. In fact, I would love a direct damage build option that does not involve phantasms or illusions at all. Completely remove the entire passive component from mesmers. What I do have a problem with is the fact that the only direct damage melee option for mesmers in PvE is being gutted by what I hope are unintentional poor placements of necessary traits in this new set up. Phantasms are the bulk of the direct damage of a PvE melee mesmer. Phantasms also comprise the bulk of the utility of this same direct damage PvE melee build (reflect, aoe, cripple, etc). I actually prefer to be in direct control of all such effects instead of depending on phantasms to be positioned perfectly and not die instantly. I prefer to control when I have effects such as protection and regen…versus hoping phantasms stay alive to provide those effects. So yeah, bring on the active play…give me a direct damage melee build with minimal passive play (no illusions). Somehow I doubt this is really what ANET is actually trying to do with mesmers though. I’m more inclined to believe they just have the PvP goggles on currently and can only see that part of the game right now.

It seems that Anet feels that Phantasms should be only supplementary in nature rather then a fundamental play-style.

Then move our direct damage back onto the mesmer’s attacks and do the same with our group utility and survivability

That aside, it may not be much for PvE, but the 1s invuln at least should do something and is almost free as long as you’re going for Wardens Feedback anyway.

I would have to disagree with you on how anything in the inspiration trait line is free…considering the closest thing to a damage modifier in that entire trait line is Warden’s Feedback. The opportunity cost of choosing inspiration as 1/3 of your available trait lines is huge…compared to damage modifiers and functionality lost from not choosing a different trait line.

Perhaps Anet felt it would require a focus away from Phantasms, to make people even want to try more active builds in PvE. They are improving Conditions in PvE, Confusion will get boosted as well

Honestly, conditions are trash in PvE and they always will be for instanced group content. Conditions are more passive play than illusions in my opinion. Confusion will always be weak, just like retaliation. ANET is not going to put in the resources to split confusion between PvP and PvE, so they will not let it get to the point where it is making a significant impact on PvP. That’s why retaliation and confusion are in their current state now. If I wanted to play a shatter build, I wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Shatter is a burst build anyway, its inherently weak in PvE because it isn’t sustained damage. It was nerfed for a reason in PvP, players don’t like getting blanked by aoe shatters. Again, the likelihood of them devoting resources to making different levels of shatter effects for PvE from PvP is almost non existent.

We will also have a ton more reflect options. Just on dodge roll alone or using BF, and/or using a Manipulation which will apparently include Mirror.

The name of the game is team utility in PvE. These options are selfish, meaning they only protect the mesmer…not the party. This puts us in Necromancer status with non party contribution.

Much tankier builds will also be possible…

That’s all well and good if that’s what you are after. I personally wouldn’t waste anyone’s time with a “tanky” build in instanced PvE.

As for Sword being the only melee option for PvE, isn’t Staff with IE and the Dueling line going to do pretty well too? Lots of bouncing Burn, bleed, and Confusion & Bleed on crits? (Not to mention Fury & Might) Trait that sucker and this could make a seriously tanky melee-range build with BD and RI for boons/heals on shatter.

Staff is a ranged weapon. Again with the “tanky”. The whole point of the phantasm direct damage build is for a direct damage option…not for condi.

I had decently high hopes for my PvE direct damage phantasm mesmer…but this preview has shot those hopes down quickly. Zero GM traits for phantasm direct damage. Phantasm traits scattered to the four winds to make sure you can’t make a cohesive PvE phantasm build. Warden’s feedback put in a very inaccessible place to eliminate our primary contribution to PvE instanced content. The primary focus of the entire mesmer trait redesign being PvP related content (interrupts, conditions, and shatters). I’m seriously doubting that the one elite specialization can compensate for this horrible redesign (from a PvE perspective).

I would definitely say yes, that they have been mining the forums for ideas and have implemented a significant number of ideas presented on the forums. They have proven themselves consistently to be forum balancers and have stayed true to form. I had a feeling that was why it was taking so long for any info on specializations.

The only issues I have are the serious lack of any decent or even remotely useful GM traits for a PvE phantasm damage build. There are literally zero GM traits I would choose for a PvE phantasm damage build. On top of that…they have gone to great lengths to keep the essential phantasm traits as spread out as possible…making sure to prevent a cohesive PvE phantasm damage build. We all know pve is much more effective in melee range. Our only melee weapon is the 1h sword. Hands down…the most versatile and effective off hand weapon to compliment that is the focus (aoe pull, reflect, aoe cleave, whirl finisher, and swiftness). This being the case…why are they spreading out traits to make an effective phantasm build like warden’s feedback, illusionists celerity, blade training, empowered illusions in literally 4 different trait lines!?! I’d say these traits were begging for some consolidation and cohesion of access.

While they did listen to some of our forum requests…they clearly missed the mark on phantasm builds. They still have a heavy reliance on weapon CD reduction traits and they have the phantasm traits spread to the 4 corners of the mesmer universe. All this while making sure not to provide a single worthwhile GM trait in any of the 5 existing lines for a phantasm mesmer. I hate to bring a negative perspective on this otherwise decent trait redesign, but please fix. Seriously ANET, try making a decent phantasm direct damage build with this new set up and honestly admit you are even remotely satisfied with your GM trait options or that you can reliably bring the options a small group would be looking for regarding support/functionality.

Mordy.6780:

Now we have one empty Grandmaster slot.
My solution would be to look at the Illusion traitline, which is mostly based on shatters and conditions.
Here we have 2 really good traits for pure damage/phantasms builds: Compounding Power and Phantasmal Haste.
Since most of the other traits in the new iteration are focused on conditions and shatters, my solution would be to merge these two traits in something like:

Phantasmal Master:
" Gain increased damage for each of your active illusions.
Reduces recharge on phantasm attack skills.

Damage Increase: 3%
Recharge on phantasm attack reduced: 20%"

This trait would become a Grandmaster in Domination, making the 3 choices really impactful on the gameplay.
As for the 2 trait slots in Illusion I think they could find more meaningful and better sinergizing traits easily.

TL;DR
Greatsword training as a grandmaster is lackluster – should be moved back to master tier.
Compounding Power and Phantasmal Haste from the Illusion line should be merged and turned into a Domination Grandmaster.
Filling the missing traits in Illusions with better sinergizing ones.

What do you guys think?

Perfect. I also like the suggestion in the post below your initial post of moving Warden’s feedback to the Dueling GM slot. Currently, phantasm damage builds have zero options in the new GM slots. This would fix that nicely.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Naevius.3185:

Just award 5 Hero points for every trait and skill you currently have, no matter how acquired.

The problem with this solution, is that you’ll then be able to do all skill challenges on top of your extra hero points, and end up with more points than any other players.

This is a competition now!?!

Latinkuro.9615:

They should calculate how many hero points total it would take to acquire everything we have right now under the “old” system.

Than proceed to allocate that amount of hero points to every characters made before this new system is introduced.

This way there is no technical limitation or any other kind of crappy excuse to lock us out of stuff we have already paid for with either gold or skill points.

I strongly encourage a.net to look at what their own company president said during the Pax HoT announcement event.
invalidating the time and resources players have put into their characters is not what guild wars 2 is about.

This^

nightwulf.1986:

That’s been established. But the changes coming up mean you either have to make the choice to select a grandmaster, or not select one at all and end up with unused points, much like how they changed the number of points in a trait line from 30 points to 6. Seeing how many people didn’t take grandmasters at all meant that grandmasters were too weak, unwanted, and being circumvented by players too easily. It’s speculation based on their recent design choices, but it seems Anet really wants players to use grandmasters instead of using only adepts and majors. They’ve made them semi-required now, the balance portion of this scheme is what it takes to make them desired.

I have an idea. How about making the GM traits actually desirable to make them desired? If they already know they are terrible…how about actually fixing that instead of trying to force terrible choices on the players.

Iozeph.5617:

Lana Del Rey.1873

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.
People have to stop seeing the new system as restriction. Quite the contrary!
? Traits got merged, you save space for other useful traits
? Ability to use 3 grandmaster traits
? You can trait into defensive traitlines without losing damage stats

Yes, and most grandmaster traits still suck. Giving us fifty percent more suck -which we’ll have to select from when these changes go live- doesn’t sound good to me nor does it make up for what we’re losing.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty doesn’t signify much when someone’s spat in it first before giving it over to you. Just saying.

I can’t help but agree with you, the core spec mesmer GM traits are still terrible. There was good reason for me skipping every GM trait on my mesmer…now they want to force me to choose three of them!?! My mesmer is a phantasm build and the most useful traits are blade training, warden’s feedback, illusionist’s celerity, empowered illusions, and critical infusion. They are as spread out across multiple trait lines as they could make them…while still keeping all the grandmaster traits as useless as possible. If they are going to force GM traits on us, at least make them worth taking. The proposed ones they have listed so far do not include a single one that I would actually take.

I actually like the fact they are combining traits now…that should have happened a long time ago honestly. I think they still need to introduce some redundancy in the trait choices if they are going to lock us into only being able to choose from 3 trait lines at a time. I don’t like that they are locking us out of being able to take multiple adept/master traits in the same line…while still keeping GM traits as crappy as ever.