Guild Wars 2

If a player wants to mix and match gear, they can already do that. That has nothing to do with the OP’s argument/issue. The issue is whether or not a player will be able to achieve the same quantity of specific raw stats in HoT that this same player can achieve now, pre-HoT. Since someone choose to take a jab at berserker gear, lets use that example. Lets say a player was fully invested in current trait lines that maximized power, precision, condition duration, and ferocity…mix in whatever combo of other stats from the remaining trait lines partially invested in. Will this same player be able to make up this same investment with the new trait system? Will there be approx 300 more power, 300 more precision, 300 more ferocity, 300 more condition duration, etc split between gear and base stats? Will there be significantly less made up to equate to a net nerf? If there is less, then that will mean there was a nerf….that’s the definition of a nerf. This example does not just apply to berserker’s gear….apply it to whatever your current primary stat investment is…toughness, vitality, etc.. I’m not saying that they won’t make it an even swap, but the OP’s concern may still be valid.

Rauderi.8706:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Better options – maybe, we’ve yet to see.
Less options – 100% fact.

I’m a quantitive guy:>

Well, yes, we are, statistically, getting fewer permutations. (I refuse to call them “options” based on how they’re used now.) :P And 390k combinations per class is still plenty to explore.

It does kinda suck that we’re losing lower trait selections in higher slots, but before panic, let’s see what they do with the trait combinations.

It really is going to be 100% dependent on what they do with the trait combinations and if they have appropriate traits in each tier. Their combinations and options are going to have to be amazing to compensate for not being able to use lower trait selections in higher trait slots. There’s nothing worse than having to take a garbage trait (due to lack of options on that tier) to get to the next tier where there is an amazing option.

Windsagio.1340:

~~~

Part of it also is to tune the damage so that high Toughness or Vitality makes a meaningful difference. There’s an old (largely incorrect for most content) saying that ‘it doesn’t matter because every class is a 1 or 2 hit anyways’. If zerk were 1hit and required perfect play, and knights were 4hit and had some breathing room, you’d see a lot more knights

While still allowing the top players with perfect reflexes to play pure zerk for their speed runs and to get more advantage in props and gold/hour for their skill.

I’m pretty sure that the same people complaining about the zerk meta, would be still complaining about zerk if they increased the difficulty of surviving as zerk. Whether they admit it or not, the complaints are because people exist that are able to clear content/get rewards at a faster pace and that people have gradually begun to expect that content be cleared at that faster pace. They don’t like being pressured to go faster/be more skilled. They feel excluded when they don’t meet those expectations.

This is going to be the same thing that happens as players get used to a new difficulty level. More and more players will adapt to the new difficulty, just like when the game first launched and people gradually migrated to zerk after learning the content. What would be the point of that? All you would have accomplished is slowing down the part of the casual player base that enjoys zerk gear. Yes, it would provide more challenge for hard core players for a while, but don’t forget this is a casual game…that’s ANET’s target consumer base.

ANET’s philosophy of having all builds able to clear content is in direct conflict with the constant, biased suggestion people keep making of increasing incoming damage. There is only one possible goal for people who suggest this…to try and find a way to keep zerk players from enjoying the content. Its already at the point where lots of zerk builds are one shot if they make a mistake…or very close to a one shot. Its already the case that high toughness/vit builds are not one shot on the majority of those same mistakes. What exactly are you looking for when you suggest this? ANET has already caved multiple times to reducing incoming damage on encounters with excessive one shots for casual complaints. Why would they do the exact opposite of this…just to try and exclude a group of players from enjoying the content? That would be like expecting them to introduce more content with enrage timers…specifically to discourage nomad gear. Both extremes would be equally bad as they would be only implemented to make their players in certain gear fail at content completion.

Leo G.4501:

As for the prospect of no stats, I’m surprised no one has tried a write-up of what such a system might looks like. It’d be interesting to consider what it’d be like, at least.

I can guarantee a river of phiw tears if ANET removed all stats because then there would be an even playing field for all players…no more excuses to hide behind for failures. I suggested something, in the past, that would have had the same result….reducing the game to one gear set in pve. Including a mininum of passive survival on it…similar to how magic find is currently implemented. That way, the passive safety net is not completely eliminated, but it would also mean that you have no choice but to have a minimum of damage stats at the same time…guaranteeing a baseline amount of actual party contribution. This is essentially the same situation they had with magic find…there were what I called “magic find mules” leaching off of parties. They were essentially non contributors there to simply tag mobs and collect maximum loot. The current situation is not anywhere near that, but if you really want to completely even the playing field, Either the no stats solution or the one size fits all approach would work. I just have this overwhelming feeling that those wearing defensive gear are doing so for intentional reasons and would not appreciate having their maximum safety net removed.

phys.7689:

As far as utilities being useless unless they give maximum benefit, that is completely and totally false.
would endure pain be useless if its base duration was 2 seconds, or its recast went down to 30 seconds based on stat investment? not all.

If the base dodge regen was 30 seconds, and vitality increased it to 16, would people stop dodging? not at all.

whether a skill is useless with minimal stat investment would be a matter of balance.

Taking it to the flip side, doesnt it follow that most of your dps skills are useless without berserkers? (based on your premise)
Sounds like, a system with no stat effects at all, would be a more optimal system for you, than one that has stats.

Thats fine, like i said,
either stats should actually effect gameplay (all stats) to similar levels
or stats should not exist.
a vote for not exist is fine with me.
vote for actually being choices is also fine

the false choice that it currently is (difficulty slider vs time to complete) is a bad function for stats, and a really ineffecient means of difficulty adjustment

I’ll just skip right past the part about the current set up working exactly as intended and get right to the heart of the matter. There needs to be a worthwhile reason for them to make changes. What exactly is this worthwhile reason? Is this reason that players in defensive gear have difficulty completing content? Is this reason that players in defensive gear aren’t getting exactly what they invested in from defensive gear? Is this reason that defensive utilities are not providing top level effectiveness for players in defensive gear? I’m pretty sure the answer to all these questions is a resounding no. I’m 100% positive that players in defensive gear are getting 100% return on their gear investment. They are getting the maximum passive survival increase that ANET is/has been willing to allow…in addition to the shared survival that all gear types get from active defenses. So again…where’s the worthwhile reason that ANET should allocate resources to changing this system that, quite frankly, isn’t broken? What’s the point of reducing the base effectiveness of defensive utilities for players not in defensive gear? What exactly is the goal you would want to accomplish by doing that? Are you trying to improve the survivability of players in defensive gear? If so, how much survivability is enough? Where’s the limit on being unkillable? Why would you want to hurt group survivability by reducing the effectiveness of party protection utilities because a zerk players uses them instead of a toughness player uses them? That sounds pretty selfish. Sounds like an attempt to make toughness a required stat for parties. That does not sound like the phiw mantra at all, that so many players with similar requests have flooded the forums with. Why should everyone have to suffer with nerfed and ineffective utilities because they don’t bring players along in specific gear? I’ll pose the same question that I asked in my last reply…that was not addressed btw. Is this just another request to nerf zerk?

I’ll agree with you on the poor implementation of the difficulty slider. ANET chose to do it by putting in “training wheels” gear instead of implementing a difficulty setting in the game. They confused players who don’t read about game mechanics before making gear investments. They failed to isolate inappropriate gear choices to the appropriate game modes. They have failed to correct or even openly acknowledge these issues to this date. Instead they proceed to give placebos to the unwashed player masses in the form of an unnecessary nerf to ferocity, omission of small group/instanced content in the upcoming expansion, and hints of “more challenging” content that “encourages players to migrate to non zerk gear”. I’m pretty sure I didn’t get an exact quote on what they said in the HoT info regarding the zerk meta, but that’s was the gist of it. Yes, I agree, that ANET could have done a much better implementation of providing a difficulty slider. I think the current implementation does work however. It just does not provide the necessary tools to not have it frustrate the player base. We need better filtering options for small groups in the LFG tool so that we can actually form functional party compositions with like minded individuals. The only time any of this is an issue is when talking about 5 man instanced content. That means dungeons and fractals, since that is the only venue where anyone is even remotely concerned with what another player is wearing.

phys.7689:

reflect is just based on the enemy damage, not player stats.

Completely false statement.

and no, stats effecting utilities would not make them useless, it would change their effectiveness based on your stat investment, which works just fine in other games, one of which would be Guild wars 1. Notice dps stats already do this, other stats are either heavily throttled, or no effect at all.

Any utility that isn’t effective at performing its function is useless. Hence why people don’t use certain utilities at all…because they are sub par. Changing utilities to not working well unless loaded up with defensive stats therefore makes said utilities useless for players not loaded up with said defensive stats. What you are lobbying for is the exact opposite of what ANET has been trying to accomplish with buffing under used utilities. ANET wants all utilities to be used…and not just by a subset of players.

If stats serve a purpose, they should actually effect skill use, which is the dominant factor in how this game is played.
If stats dont effect skill use, their effect is negligeble in a game without guaranteed stat checks(unavoidable dmg/effects/condi/skills), and are more trouble than they are worth.

Its illogical to expect defensive stats to be able to affect defensive skill/utility use. That would mean that all defensive skills/utilities need to be rendered completely ineffective to anyone not loaded up with toughness. What good is a block that doesn’t actually block the damage completely….may as well use protection instead. What good is that block, in the face of overwhelming one shot mechanics, when it still doesn’t block the one shot?

This whole argument about wanting defensive stats to affect utilities makes no sense…how can you make a block or reflect stop more than 100% incoming damage? That’s what they currently do…they stop 100% of the incoming damage. They do this for anyone…including for you in your toughness gear. As I said in a previous post, this is on top of your toughness…because when the block/reflect is over…you still have your passive damage reduction from toughness. Are you really asking for immortality? Or is this entire argument really just about trying to find a way to make zerk players die again? Enlighten me if there is some other purpose to this argument about wanting defensive stats to determine the effectiveness of defensive utilities/skills.

phys.7689:

Active defense has no STAT investment, aka, if you want to play defensively, stats are largely irrelevant for skilled play. Active DPS however has an extemely large stat investment. No matter how good you are at dps, your effectiveness is greatly reduced without the proper stats.

you should think about ideas, before, and after posting, its impossible to learn if you think you have the answers before evaluating them.

the reality is that attributes effects are biased towards dps.
why is it your stats make your active dps 300% stronger,
but your stats dont make your active def 300% stronger
support?
healing?
control?

and this is an actually a problem for the game, because lets be honest, you dont have to learn every skill to survive, you can burn an enemy/enemies down without them getting a chance to do virtually any damage at all.
you can kill bosses in 20 seconds, and this is primarily because they have to design encounters with the insane range of dmg from lowest dps set, to highest dps set.

and in that 20 seconds, you essentially have the same defenses as any one else.

like i said, really they should just get rid of stats all together, or rework it. I mean fine, you want defensive skills to give same benefit no matter what?, whatever, but then the stat system will never be an accurate representation of risk, because active defensive skills are the actual meat of defense, passive defense is not a major part of high level play.

Just want to make sure you realize that active defenses (for everyone…defensive stat users too) are always at 100%. These active defenses…that you have as well, do not somehow turn off your passive defenses. They add to your existing passive defense. Lets examine this to determine exactly what you are asking for/expecting.
1. ANET is not going to let you become immortal/unkillable.
2. There is a limit to how much survivability you can achieve before becoming immortal.
3. The game becomes pointless if you can never die.
4. I’m saying this repeatedly in different ways so it sinks in to everyone asking for this.
5. How can you improve defensive utilities via stats if they are already at 100% effectiveness?

Is this just another nerf zerk request in disguise? I ask this because the implication is that you want to nerf the base effectiveness of the defensive utilities and have them only accomplish their job if you are geared in defensive stats. This is just absurd as you would simply invalidate those utilities by making them useless unless wearing defensive gear.

Healing utilities are affected by stats…healing power.
Control is already at the maximum effectiveness…not controlled by anything other than condition duration.
Support is a combination of everything you can do. There is no specific stat that controls support.

Darkwolfer.7819:

Nope. I could care less about the title of the armor. It is the stat combination. I main Engineer and use Soldiers and tank like a boss. I still do decent damage because power is main stat but toughness/vitality allow me to stay alive and support/tank for my fellow players. The only time this is a problem is if more than one person is doing this then we don’t have enough DPS.

I think the problem is with the min/max people not even allowing for traditional roles even though the roles work just as well. I mean heaven forbid a fight should take 20 more seconds. I find it very beneficial when I get a healing ele that knows what they doing. There are tons of fights that actually cater to this concept where the natural regen of water stance comes in handy.

Because of GW2 system with the no roles ideology people who actually enjoy playing these roles get shunned when they ought to be rewarded. So if ANet doesn’t want to require roles that is fine but make them still viable.

The only problem is the relaxed dungeon queue system that allows for bad experience when players want to play those roles. nothing worse than entering a dungeon and seeinf 2-3 people state “I’m heals”. It isn’t because they are wrong but they know nobody will queue up with them if they state it in the dungeon find.

Some solutions is to NEVER pug, be a jerk and say zerg only post your armor (I should carry armor on me so I can link it just to anger people), play with friends who share same ideas, or give into the meta even if you don’t want to play DPS

None of these solutions are very appetizing huh?

Why do you feel that you should be rewarded or accepted for willfully trying to impose roles in a game that is explicitly not based on those roles? Why do you feel the game and its players need to adapt and accommodate your choice to role play in the game instead of actually playing the game as designed? It would be different if you would do exactly what you said in the end (play with friends who share the same ideas), as the content is made easy enough to play with whatever handicaps you want and still succeed…but to expect that in pugs is pretty ridiculous. And yes, you would really be a jerk for trolling others by joining groups that do request gear pings…and pinging an extra set of gear in your bags that you aren’t wearing. The game has specific policies on trolling I believe. That aside, is why I don’t even try to control the quality of a group I join, I just leave and look for another group if I see really bad behavior/performance in a group. That way I don’t get as much hate spam from nomads expecting a free ride.

I actually do agree that a big part of the problem is the dungeon queue system. The problem is that it does not have the proper filters to form an effective and appropriate group to fit play styles and expectations. It should, at the very least do three things.
1. Allow and enforce general stat allocation rules for joining a group.
2. Prevent wholesale stat allocation changes once in the group.
3. Allow and enforce general experience level for joining a group.

This would relieve a lot of the anger/frustration going on in the game regarding instanced grouping. You would literally have to group with like minded players when using the LFG tool. No more nomads trying to get carried by zerk parties. No more zerks unintentionally joining nomad parties and getting frustrated/focused. No more newbies joining fractal 50 as their first (exaggeration) fractal run and face planting the whole time. This would eliminate gear ping requirements…as the LFG tool would do it behind the scenes.

Honestly, the only time this “zerk meta” argument ever surfaces is in regards to instanced content…where individual group member contribution actually matters. You can run around naked/untraited in open world content and no one would care. Improving the LFG tool to actually filter party composition would actually solve this problem. You would still have the option to manually form parties via invite, like you already do, without the proposed LFG improvements.

phys.7689:

… i think that stats should effect active defense, just like stats effect active offense.(also active support and active control) and in similar proportions.
if it doesnt work that way, you will end up having the current problem, where a bunch of stats are comparitively useless, and DPS stats are the only stats that matter, for high level play.
…

You do realize that there is exactly one utility type that is impacted by offensive stats right? That is reflect. That is entirely because one of the two purposes of reflect is to do damage to the attacker. The other purpose is to prevent the projectile damage to the defender…which it does regardless of what armor set you are wearing.

Do you also realize that if you made utilities not accomplish their goal…just because you aren’t wearing a particular armor set…you would invalidate the majority of utilities in the game for players and make less diversity? I’m sorry, but that idea is not well thought out. I see multiple people keep suggesting something like that and its pretty ridiculous. One person in this thread is even suggesting that utilities only work partially if you aren’t wearing “tank” gear…in an obvious attempt to both validate him wearing said “tank” gear and try to force anyone not wearing “tank” gear into doing so. Its amazing how people can even get their minds wrapped around such a hypocritical concept as trying to force others to play how they want…but at the same time crying a river of tears on the forums not so long ago about the same thing having been expected of them.

Zenith.7301:

Fact is, if you’re going to keep 1/2 gear sets head and shoulders above the others in one game format, you might as well erase the other sets.

I mean, come on, if people don’t want other sets to be useful besides berk/assassin, the least anet can do is remove the ascended chests in fractals that have non-berk/assassin stats.

Why does apothecary or rabid even exist if it’s going to be so ridiculously suboptimal.

Yeah, you can run any set and complete content, but we’re talking about a sizable difference in clear times, and time is a limited commodity for people in a TEAM game, so nobody wants to inconvenience others so even thought there’s an “option” to run other setups, the reality is that the expectations are always berserker. Otherwise you’re being a scumbag to your group.

Wildstar has done action combat far better. If its endgame were 5/8/10-man based instead of the usual large raid endgame, I’d dump GW2 in an instant ;(

I almost agree with you on the question of why some of these gear sets even exist. I asked that question a long time ago on these forums. The only justifications I could think of were that some of them were meant for pvp venues only and that some were meant as training gear for players to learn to pve. They should have restricted some of these gear sets to only be usable in the proper venue upon game launch. Nomad should never have been allowed in pve. The same with clerics.

Windsagio.1340:

‘cept it’s not skill based, because the ‘high skill/high risk’ option can be used by all skill levels.

This is a failure in the game design, due to ANET not wanting to allow more inspection/control options in party/group formation. Yes, less skilled players can slap on ascended zerker gear and jump right into a level 50 fractal run…without having even completed fractal level 1. That is because we have no reliable filter to stop them from doing things like this. Yes, this is an extreme example, but the same principle applies to other situations in the game. I fully understand the reasons why ANET will not let us filter prospective party members more (they don’t want to expose the nomads and newbies to the inevitable party kicks), but this results in a lot of really bad party compositions. I’d go on to say that it is still skill based…regarding the ability to actually perform and survive in zerker type gear, but you just have to deal with a lot of players who really shouldn’t be wearing that type of gear yet. The skill becomes apparent when you see who is and isn’t face planting on a regular basis…although the aggro system in this game is really bad…as it tends to focus on anyone in doing high damage/in melee range (this primarily translates to zerkers). When the rest of your party is in nomad gear…this means you have to be flawless to not end up face down.

Red Queen.7915:

I’ll laugh so hard if they put in new dungeons that are impossible to complete as a full zerker group and actually require you to move around and bring different builds and skill sets to even stand a chance.

…then I’ll rejoice and probably play more dungeons than ever.

Revealed? Could the reason for this entrenched resistance to the inclusion of any dungeons in this this open world xpac be (all too familiar) zerk hate in disguise? You guys should know by now that builds and utilities =/= forced roles.

MaXi.3642:

I think that dungeons are pointless unless they don’t allow content skipping and abusing of mechanics like staying in a safe place etc… we don’t need developers to work on more content for dungeon speed runners to skip…

Because you don’t skip anything in the open world….

Many.8419:

Actually I agree with OP. As a dedicated dungeoneer I feel disappointed that no dungeons were mentioned in HoT. I don’t understand why anet is so stubborn to push away from the game the only professional community next to serious pvpers.

I also agree with the OP to an extent. I don’t dislike open world content, but I generally don’t spend much time in the open world in general. I maybe farm a new area ANET introduces if there is some specific item(s) in that new area that I want, but after that…its back to speed runs or random fractal pugs. I do find it disheartening that there is zero mention of any new dungeon(s). I do find open world content to just be a 11111111 spam fest, as the only possible challenges in that type of content are getting enough non-nomads to be able to kill things and getting them to be organized enough to do content that requires any level of organization.

Dungeons/fractals are pretty much the only content type, outside of PvP, that requires a decent level of individual contribution to affect the outcome. You actually notice the difference with a low damage team or people just not pulling their weight. Dungeons/fractals really shouldn’t be abandoned content like it has been.

I can see the reason why they seem to be trying to stay away from dungeons and fractals though. These content types have been the focus of all the hate directed at zerk/assassins players. Its because you can feel/see the individual contribution levels of players in these types of content that non zerk players make such a stink. You can feel/see the slow down in clearing content when you have those nomad staff camping guards in your group. You can feel/see the drop in effectiveness when that minion master or condi necro is in your group. In the past, you could feel/see the huge jump in effectiveness when you had multiple elementalists stacking might and dropping those fiery great swords for your group. When that warrior was still up and half the group was down …but had signet of rage equipped instead of war banner. Dungeons/fractals shine a spot light on disparities in performance, so of course ANET probably wants to make that go away. If they only provide open world content, then it is much harder to feel these disparities.

Windsagio.1340:

ODB.6891:

Windsagio.1340:

ODB.6891:

Windsagio.1340:

Skimmed the last 2.5 pages, so maybe Imissed some;

Seems that the arguement comes down to non-designers (with or without agenda) insiting that it’s impossible for designers to design a different system without massive direct nerfs.

More evidence that players aren’t actually game designers I guess ><

~~~

It’s in some ways difficult, but certainly not impossible.

Seems to me the argument comes down to non-designers (with or without agenda) insiting that it’s possible for designers to design a different system without massive direct nerfs.

More evidence that players aren’t actually game designers I guess.

See what I did there? I see you’ve been using some kind of debate strategy this whole thread where you make a statement like this with obvious bias…where you specifically omit the fact that the other side is just as guilty. You dress it up and make it sound well informed, but at the end of the day…its just a jab at the other side. Like way earlier in the thread, anytime someone argued against you…you’d respond as “that’s why we can’t have a discussion”. If you have something valid to say…or just your opinion…just say it and leave this stuff out.

I’m a paid designer tho (in no way associated with Arenanet) :p

More to the point, saying something is impossible is far more bold than saying something is possible.

semantics….you know what the point was.

Yes and it’s invalid. There’s a massive difference between ‘this can be done here’s some speculation, ideas, and discussion on the subject’ and ‘nope, can’t be done don’t bother talking about it it’s impossible’

Also, not really semantics, but I hate to grammar kitten ><

EDIT:

It’s funny how the people who agree with me all understand how things work and are supposed to work, and the people who disagree simply have no idea.

Okay, I’ll make it simple for you. Since you are possibly intentionally evading the point of my original reply to you. The point of that reply had absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread. The point of my reply had everything to do with the snide replies to other’s posts…much like the way you just did with the edit to your reply to me. The point of my reply also had to do with the misleading/intentional omissions in your replies to others in this thread. At the end of the day, it has just been annoying watching your condescending replies, since it has been entirely unnecessary to reply that way. If you are actually a designer/developer…I really hope you are in no way a customer facing employee with that personality. Even if you are a designer/developer…that does not make you automatically correct about anything. That does not make your ideas valid or other’s invalid. And yeah…everyone hates a grammar kitten.

Windsagio.1340:

ODB.6891:

Windsagio.1340:

Skimmed the last 2.5 pages, so maybe Imissed some;

Seems that the arguement comes down to non-designers (with or without agenda) insiting that it’s impossible for designers to design a different system without massive direct nerfs.

More evidence that players aren’t actually game designers I guess ><

~~~

It’s in some ways difficult, but certainly not impossible.

Seems to me the argument comes down to non-designers (with or without agenda) insiting that it’s possible for designers to design a different system without massive direct nerfs.

More evidence that players aren’t actually game designers I guess.

See what I did there? I see you’ve been using some kind of debate strategy this whole thread where you make a statement like this with obvious bias…where you specifically omit the fact that the other side is just as guilty. You dress it up and make it sound well informed, but at the end of the day…its just a jab at the other side. Like way earlier in the thread, anytime someone argued against you…you’d respond as “that’s why we can’t have a discussion”. If you have something valid to say…or just your opinion…just say it and leave this stuff out.

I’m a paid designer tho (in no way associated with Arenanet) :p

More to the point, saying something is impossible is far more bold than saying something is possible.

semantics….you know what the point was.

Windsagio.1340:

Skimmed the last 2.5 pages, so maybe Imissed some;

Seems that the arguement comes down to non-designers (with or without agenda) insiting that it’s impossible for designers to design a different system without massive direct nerfs.

More evidence that players aren’t actually game designers I guess ><

~~~

It’s in some ways difficult, but certainly not impossible.

Seems to me the argument comes down to non-designers (with or without agenda) insiting that it’s possible for designers to design a different system without massive direct nerfs.

More evidence that players aren’t actually game designers I guess.

See what I did there? I see you’ve been using some kind of debate strategy this whole thread where you make a statement like this with obvious bias…where you specifically omit the fact that the other side is just as guilty. You dress it up and make it sound well informed, but at the end of the day…its just a jab at the other side. Like way earlier in the thread, anytime someone argued against you…you’d respond as “that’s why we can’t have a discussion”. If you have something valid to say…or just your opinion…just say it and leave this stuff out.

xDudisx.5914:

Lol people complaining about making AI better and content harder.

Right now there are bosses that you don’t even need to dodge on full zerker because you can just walk 2 steps to the sides and avoid all dmg. The most common example is ac p1 final boss.

Some other bosses are so underpowered that a simple wall or reflection makes the boss do less dmg than some elite mobs. Example: CM p1 first boss

Also several cheap mechanics like Frost from CM where you can avoid almost all the dmg jumping on the beam or rock. SE p3 carier where people can sit on the ledge and range it…..

If you have even read prior posts….you would know that is not even the discussion. The discussion is constant requests to find ways for incoming damage to overwhelm zerk geared players …so that they will be pressured to switch to different gear…or to have to back off/hide to try to recover. The discussion also has suggested adding in unavoidable damage to accomplish this effect…which explicitly means make zerk die…unless they switch to different gear or have someone healing them. Zerk players have no problems with making content difficult…the problem is trying to make it where it is no longer feasible to try to complete content in zerk gear.

xDudisx.5914:

ODB.6891:

xDudisx.5914:

Lazaar.9123:

Sagat.3285:

If the content is challenging enough pure dps is not optimal look at pvp and wvw.

Both of those game modes have people that use zerkers, not all classes benefit from celestial in sPvP, and plenty of backliners use zerkers in WvW.

But you don’t see a zerg with only backline and is very rare to see a spvp team with 5 zerkers.

The reason being that it is not optimal. You do, however, see groups with all soldiers, or all celestial, etc. You don’t see zerk players demanding a content or game design change to “fix” that. Why is that? Why is it so hard to accept that everything in every game mode may not be optimal for your gear set up? Why is it so important for players not in zerk gear to chase zerk players around trying to force themselves into zerk groups? Its not even like there are many zerk only groups anymore. I know I haven’t seen one in a very long time…and I pug in LFG nearly every day.

Full soldier? Soldier is almost not even present in spvp. Even groups with celestial most times bring a zerker thief. Even in wvw is not common to see entire group of soldier.

Do you play in NA server? I see more zerker in lfg than anything else.

Yes, I do play on a NA server. My play times may be drastically different and more random than yours though….I generally play anywhere from 9pm-10am est. The point was, that there is a different meta in the various PvP modes than in instanced PvE, but you don’t hear zerk players demanding that changed.

Sagat.3285:

ODB.6891:

xDudisx.5914:

Lazaar.9123:

Sagat.3285:

If the content is challenging enough pure dps is not optimal look at pvp and wvw.

Both of those game modes have people that use zerkers, not all classes benefit from celestial in sPvP, and plenty of backliners use zerkers in WvW.

But you don’t see a zerg with only backline and is very rare to see a spvp team with 5 zerkers.

The reason being that it is not optimal. You do, however, see groups with all soldiers, or all celestial, etc. You don’t see zerk players demanding a content or game design change to “fix” that. Why is that? Why is it so hard to accept that everything in every game mode may not be optimal for your gear set up? Why is it so important for players not in zerk gear to chase zerk players around trying to force themselves into zerk groups? Its not even like there are many zerk only groups anymore. I know I haven’t seen one in a very long time…and I pug in LFG nearly every day.

Can you at least recognize that conditions need to be fixed,zerker is optimal due to weak AI/encounters and you can boost other stats usefulness while still keeping zerker optimal?? Can you?

I 100% recognize that conditions should be fixed…if it is even possible with with their game engine design. Zerker is optimal because of the fact that direct damage currently does the best job at killing enemies in instanced PvE and that most damage is avoidable by well timed dodges and active defenses. I disagree that there is any type of boost to other stat’s usefulness that will not go against ANET’s core game design for PvE in GW2.

Cosmin.8306:

maddoctor.2738:

What do gear stats have to do with your role? Gear != role.

Gear has quite a lot to do with your role. Role is defined by weapon, traits , skills and the stats. Don’t believe me? Next time you run a dungeon give me a call , i’ll make a full nomad gear warrior with meta dps utilities and traits and we’ll see if everyone is happy with my role as a dmg dealer.

And specializing in a certain build is actually a good thing makes roles a bit more defined and opens the door to new interesting builds .

There….are…no…roles…in…PvE. Everyone is supposed to be fulfilling all options, all the time. That’s where the problem is coming from. People can’t recover from previous games they played and adapt to this game. The whole point of game design in this game was to remove those trinity role requirements/restrictions. That’s why utilities are not linked to stats to be functional. There is absolutely nothing interesting to me about having to depend on a healer or a tank. I’m not saying that you have no interest in having to depend on/be a healer or tank, but this is not the game for that. It was never advertised as such…in fact it was advertised as not having dedicated healers and tanks. They are of course, back peddling, on that initial advertisement…but all companies do anything they can to draw in more customers.

Astralporing.1957:

Ezekel.6394:

Astralporing.1957:

It is possible to design content where no single build is optimal, and the recognized meta contains several builds for every class, that are all at a level so relatively close to each other, that experience with a specific build is more important than slight differences that could (or could not) be proved by math.
Case in point – GW1 meta. Yes, there were good builds and bad builds, but there were no single build that could blow all others out of the water. Well, not after Ursan nerf anyway.

GW1 had healers, so it is worlds of difference between GW1 and GW2. You had to have healers in GW1, outside of running cheesy builds like perma SF or 55hp monk. In fact you basically needed two healers in GW1, at least past Prophecies.

And? Did that somehow invalidate what i said? Was it the presence of healers that suddenly made possible for multitude of builds in non-healer roles to exist (in healer roles as well)?
I don’t think so.

I think his point was apples versus oranges. A game that requires the presence of specific roles versus one that does not.

xDudisx.5914:

Lazaar.9123:

Sagat.3285:

If the content is challenging enough pure dps is not optimal look at pvp and wvw.

Both of those game modes have people that use zerkers, not all classes benefit from celestial in sPvP, and plenty of backliners use zerkers in WvW.

But you don’t see a zerg with only backline and is very rare to see a spvp team with 5 zerkers.

The reason being that it is not optimal. You do, however, see groups with all soldiers, or all celestial, etc. You don’t see zerk players demanding a content or game design change to “fix” that. Why is that? Why is it so hard to accept that everything in every game mode may not be optimal for your gear set up? Why is it so important for players not in zerk gear to chase zerk players around trying to force themselves into zerk groups? Its not even like there are many zerk only groups anymore. I know I haven’t seen one in a very long time…and I pug in LFG nearly every day.

Tim.6450:

ODB.6891:

Translation for statement #1….reward the player who invested in minimal damage gear with extra damage.

First it doesn’t have to be minial damage gear, it doesn’t even have to come from yourself. Secondly I don’t see how this is a problem, there have been mechanics in gaming that have worked around the principle of trading survivability for more damage, the easiest example is the zombie in the final fantasy series (healing a zombie does damage).

ODB.6891:

Translation for statement #2…die zerk die!

So asking for difficult content is bad? Good to know.

So I can feel better about my low damage gear choices.

And here is the assualt on my person. Just because I want more variety doesn’t mean that I try to feel better about my gear choices.

Regardless of what happens in some game…other than the one we are playing…in what universe would it be okay to have higher or even similar damage output for a gear set designed for maximum passive personal safety/survival…versus one that sacrifices all passive personal safety/survival in favor of maximum damage output? I can’t see how that could possibly be justified. You made your bed, lie in it? Or make a new bed? Stop asking to lie in zerk’s bed when you don’t want to make that bed. What kind of compensation should zerk get out of that trade…more survival? I’m pretty sure we aren’t asking for that. Even if it were acceptable to completely even out the playing field on damage and survivability in instanced PvE, they already have that option…its called celestial. If either side wants celestial…they should earn/purchase it.

Asking for difficult content is not bad in anyway. What is bad is asking for changes to be made to specifically penalize other players out of jealousy, attempts to force your inclusion into their groups, etc. And for the record, that was not a personal attack on you. I don’t know you and you haven’t said anything offensive to me…so I have no reason to do that. By “So I can feel better about my low damage gear choices”, I was referring to anyone who intentionally picks low damage gear and then expects/demands/lobbies for the benefits of the opposite gear choice….especially at the expense of those who did pick that opposite gear choice. I can definitely understand why you would perceive my response negatively, because things like that sound bad when you see the literal interpretation of what a statement like you made means. Its like two people walking into a car dealership. One buys a sports car and the other buys a mini van. Obviously they can both get from point A to point B on the same road. One is clearly going to be capable of doing it faster and likely with less emphasis on safety features. The other is going to be more utility oriented and family friendly..more emphasis on safety features. After purchase…is it acceptable for the mini van customer to start demanding that things be done to penalize the sport car customer for not having access to as many safety features…so they will have to switch to a mini van too? Would it be acceptable for the mini van customer to demand an engine upgrade for free to be able to reach the driving speeds of the sports car customer? In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with either purchase choice, you get what you intentionally purchased or you were a very bad customer who did not bother to research your purchase choices before purchase. What you are asking for is not variety. You are asking for ANET to design anti-zerk encounters to force a new meta. Why would they do that to their customers who did choose a perfectly valid option…just like you did…and are not filling up the forums with complaints like this?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Well, why does Zerker not rule everything in PvP modes? Unpredictability, mitigation, and pressure. Mitigation and pressure are easily brought into PvE. For example, if you’re under Weakness, the damage from Zerker is not much higher than the damage from Soldier gear. It’s higher, sure, but that’s already a step toward making Zerker not “optimal” while remaining “viable.” Add in lots of low damage attacks that overwhelm active defense and Zerker may actually not be the optimal choice anymore. No enforcing of tanks/healers, but the amount of time a Zerker geared character would have to back off to recover may actually put them in second place for efficiency. Alternatively, you could have the ele (all speedruns have eles right now) switch to water attunement and the team blasts water fields to stay alive instead of fire fields to deal more damage. More durable builds may not need to do that tactic change, and then clear times become a bit more similar (how similar depends on a large number of factors).

The easiest change would just be high armor, low health enemies. Now Zerker is still viable, but “optimal” goes to a condition damage set (most likely Sinister) instead.

Alternatively, goals that aren’t “kill stuff” can provide different “optimals” as well.

Zerker can be viable without being optimal (it is in PvP and WvW). I have no problems at all with all dungeon paths having a meta, and I don’t mind some of them being all zerk. I just dislike all of them being that way.

Do you even realize what it is that you are really trying to make happen? You are trying to eliminate the current reason a lot of players even do speed runs in instanced PvE. That reason is the speed/profitability ratio investment. What happens when a dungeon path is no longer profitable for zerk in regards to speed/profitability? I can answer that….zerk stops doing that content and finds something else that does provide a better speed/profitability ratio. That leaves all these nomads/clerics/sinisters/etc doing this content by themselves….in slow motion. Is that really what they want? I don’t think it is, otherwise they wouldn’t be spazzing out over not being “optimal” for this content. What they really want is to be forced upon zerk players so they can have faster runs. On the extremely unlikely chance ANET was to make such changes…what are you going to do then…follow zerk players to whatever next thing they choose to do for speed/profitability and complain about that too?

Tim.6450:

rotten.9753:

If zerker (or any glass gear like sinister) isn’t optimal, what’s the point of running a glass gear without a proper reward? It’s like fractals vs open world. The former is much harder and doesn’t even reward you proportionally.

The encounter design could solve this. If the design allows a player to trade survivability for extra damage, it would still be fair. Another way would be “forcing” the player with such difficult content that the risks of going zerker do not match the rewards for going zerker.

Translation for statement #1….reward the player who invested in minimal damage gear with extra damage.

Translation for statement #2…die zerk die! So I can feel better about my low damage gear choices.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

Windsagio.1340:

No, I"m sorry. Making other options viable is not enforcing those methods.

Other options are already viable since all options are viable. Viability is not the same as Optimal. Based on your comments you just want the game to be played your way with optimal builds according to you. That is the very definition of forcing others to play your way.

How is something different being optimal forcing anyone to play their way any more than zerker being optimal forcing anyone to play your way? Double standards, much?

Either having something (doesn’t matter what) be optimal forces people to play a certain way…or it doesn’t.

Zerker can be viable without being optimal, just like every other gear set in the game is viable without being optimal. In no way does it force anyone to play a certain way, so long as it’s viable.

I’m sorry, but almost everything you just said is wrong. The only reason why zerker is optimal (in instanced PvE only) is because all of its stats are dedicated to killing enemies in the most efficient manner. Condi is not optimal in this same scenario due to game/system limitations. Defensive stats are not optimal because they contribute absolutely nothing to making enemies die. Vitality and Toughness only contribute if that player wearing that stat is picking up another downed player…and then goes right back to being a non contributor immediately afterwards. Healing is slightly better than vitality/toughness because it at least helps your teammates some. The point of this is, that the only way to make zerker not be optimal is to make zerker die or invalidate the purpose of zerker gear….which would be a complete betrayal by ANET to its customers who enjoy berserker gear. Defensive stats can never be optimal in a game without tanks and healers being required…because those are the only functions they could optimally provide in instanced PvE. Again, the goal in instanced PvE is to make enemy AI health bars drop to zero…how can stats that do not accomplish this be optimal without tanks and healers being required? How can zerker not be optimal without that?

I was under the impression that necromancers were not getting the GS….the specialization class that splits off from necromancers are getting the GS. The information given was that the specialization would lose somethings to get somethings. Similar to rangers and druids. I’m assuming maybe dagger is one of the things the specialization class gives up to get the GS?

Sagat.3285:

ODB.6891:

Sagat.3285:

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

OP mobs will change nothing,only way is either player like encounters(anything a player can do so should a mob) or removal of crit and improvements of condition cap.

I’m fairly certain that the only things mobs do not have in their toolkit of abilities in PvE are dodges and smart positioning. As far as removal of crit goes…if that’s okay to remove a core stat….then I guess that means its equally fair to remove toughness?

Sure 3 dps stats while 1 for the rest,genius even!! Again only 2 ways, look at pvp and wvw zerkers,also stop with single boss encounters, I need the devs to confirm what type of pve they want so I can stop…

Btw the toughness response had nothing to support it..core stat…sure.

Are you seriously going to argue that toughness is not a core stat of this game? Are you seriously saying that toughness is not a core component of survival gear? Anymore than crit or ferocity are core stats of dps gear? You have lost all objectivity and credibility if that is your assertion. Survival gear has 3 stats too….that work just as much in unison as dps stats work in unison for dps gear. What you guys seem to have a problem with is that your survival stats work for a different goal than dps stats work for. Dps stats work to kill mobs. Survival stats work to keep mobs from killing you. How is this a problem…when you consciously and intentionally choose your stats in this game. You don’t accidentally click to get a full set of survival stats anymore than you accidentally click to get a full set of dps stats. You get exactly what you were trying to get…why get mad about achieving your intended goal?

The point of my comment about removing toughness was to illustrate the hypocrisy of you mentioning removing critical damage. Clearly I hit a nerve with that, or you wouldn’t be making a completely ridiculous assertion that removing 1/3 of the stats from your gear choice was not equivalent to removing 1/3 of the stats from my gear choice. I think both choices are equally ridiculous and would achieve equal effect. It would go a long way to removing the safety net from survival gear and it would significantly reduce the speed clearing advantage of dps gear. Neither would be a good choice, as they both would significantly diminish the reason why people choose these respective options.

What it sounds like is you guys are wanting a GW2 uniform. Sounds like you want everyone in celestial gear. That is the only compromise that makes sense. Any other alternative is biased against one extreme or the other. Not that the presence of extremes are bad…since both extremes still get the same rewards…with more variety…which is what you guys profess to want.

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

I’m still struggling with the whole desire to nerf zerker to begin with. All the suggestions to make it harder to play in a specific gear set. You never hear anyone cry…nerf soldier or nerf nomad. No one wants to make it hard for players in survival gear to survive, but they want to make it hard for players in dps gear to dps.

Balekai.6083:

…snip…

One major reason for ANET staying away from the whole “constant anti-player pressure” idea would be that implementing this would automatically switch the meta to survival gear and drastically slow down the pace of the game. If this constant incoming damage was unavoidable, it would immediately invalidate any gear set without toughness/vitality…especially on low base hp professions. I don’t see how that could possibly be a good thing. Currently anyone can clear the content…that change to adding constant unavoidable area damage, would break that truth.

Killface.1896:

Make conditions mobs (like the Husks) be lot more common and more area damage so heals are needed and with taunt coming you may need some sort of tank and you got fun and mix party requirement

I’ll point out the problems with what you just said:

1. so heals are needed
2. you may need some sort of tank
3. mix party requirement

Sagat.3285:

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

OP mobs will change nothing,only way is either player like encounters(anything a player can do so should a mob) or removal of crit and improvements of condition cap.

I’m fairly certain that the only things mobs do not have in their toolkit of abilities in PvE are dodges and smart positioning. As far as removal of crit goes…if that’s okay to remove a core stat….then I guess that means its equally fair to remove toughness?

Shiren.9532:

The solution to retaliation is just as viable in zerk parties as it is in nomad parties. Boon stripping doesn’t require toughness or vitality or healing or condi, it simply requires a single skill or sigil or weapon (just like reflect).

Exactly….this can’t be any more fair…all gear sets equal in this respect.

The power level of non-zerk stats needs to be raised and the pie of things that benefit from stats needs to be evenly distributed across all the stats, not primarily giving everything to zerk.

Think about it, how many on crit effects are there? How many % damage traits and sigils are there? How many skills scale off of power or crit damage (reflects)? All of these things work off of zerk stats and there are almost no defensive equivalents. Think about this, zerk benefits more from Might and Fury than the other stat combos. Zerk also benefits more from protection than any combo with toughness (due to more incoming damage blocked). The only boon that is superior without a zerk build is Regeneration.

Ask those same questions of toughness, vitality and to a lesser extent healing power. Zerk isn’t just high risk high reward, it’s stats have the biggest piece of the design pie when it comes to additional effects and ways to push its power level. There is just more variety and depth to what zerk stats do for you.

The underlying issue here is diminishing returns. I’m pretty sure they don’t want players to be completely immune to death. That’s the direction you are heading when you request bigger benefits to existing survival stats. What else can they possibly do to make stats that only exist to keep you from dying…get more effective? Of course protection benefits zerk more than soldiers/clerics/nomad…because soldiers/clerics/nomad are approaching the limit to survivability that ANET is willing to allow already…before protection is even applied.

As far as “on crit effects” go, what’s the alternative….“on hit effects”? That would get to the point where you may as well just make it an always on aura.

Percent damage traits and sigils. I can’t see a problem with this…as any build can use these. Ultimately the goal is to kill mobs. This helps soldier/cleric/nomad builds as well…to contribute to this ultimate goal of killing mobs. What’s your suggestion here? Something to make toughness/vitality/healing power more effective instead of allowing more damage to be done? That’s still not going to make soldier/cleric/nomad more desirable in “developer abandoned content”…it only pushes them closer to the immune to death status.

Your question of how many skills scale off of power/crit/ferocity? Pretty much just one…reflects. If this is such a point of contention…how would you suggest that this be resolved? How could toughness/vitality/healing power work with reflects and not be completely overpowered? Should the party get additional toughness/healing from having enemy attacks reflected or from attacking through/standing in reflects? It seems like overkill considering the entire purpose of the reflect is to keep the party from taking the damage to begin with.

Yes, zerk type stats do have the most dynamic effects in the game, but I’m completely stumped on how that could possibly be any different due to the nature of the stats in question. There is going to be a logical limit to how close ANET is going to allow a player to get to death immunity.

Sagat.3285:

I just want to hear it from them so I should always underestimate the word “challenging” from them in context or not, not the only thing I will ignore but stop trying to fool people be kitten honest.

So for everyone to speed run through pve you create 3 dps stats,an environment for them to dominate and impair other stats? Good show! Might as well end this thread, all I need is a red tag saying :“Yes this is what we want and will promote.”.

I think the issue with this concept of “challenging” is that what is challenging is extremely subjective. It definitely does not have to mean make everything into PvP to become challenging. Everyone does not find PvP to be fun. In Fact, there are reasons why PvE and PvP are two separate game modes. Just like someone else said, if people wanted to play PvP, they would go play PvP and not PvE.

The fact that there are different gear sets, with different levels of inherent survivability, makes it extremely difficult to make content that is equally challenging/difficult for everyone. They accomplish it for sets like berserker/assassins by liberal helpings of one shot mechanics…a single mistake has you eating the floor. Soldiers/Nomad/Cleric trivializes that content as the entire purpose of those sets is to make your character nearly unkillable. The only solutions I can think of to giving equal levels of “challenge” to all would be to implement gimmick mechanics…which get really old really fast, to implement the PvP type solution in PvE…which will turn off your PvE players, or to perhaps take off some of your survivability gear so that you too…can experience the risk/challenge factor that zerk/assassins does. At the end of the day, players chose their gear/stat combo for a reason. The only possible reason for choosing high vitality, toughness stats is to reduce the likelihood of death/defeat…mission accomplished. The reason for choosing zerk/assassins is to play on the edge while putting out max damage…mission accomplished. If zerk/assassins players want less “challenge”, then they add some survivability gear into the mix and re-trait into more survival. The opposite should be true as well….versus wanting everyone and everything else to change to accommodate your desire for more challenge….make a change to yourselves.

Just to point this out though…the existence of other stats (berserker, assassins, etc) does not “impair” survival stats. Toughness is still the same toughness/resistance to damage…whether power/precision/ferocity exists or not. The same with vitality and healing power. Saying that one stat combo “impairs” another would be like saying that the existence of toughness/vitality/healing power in PvP modes impairs the combo of power/precision/ferocity in those modes.

Sagat.3285:

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

#fail

Challenging group content huh? Can a dev confirm this is the direction the pve in this game will take so we can stop trying, just end it now and be honest.

#wrong #win

Rotten is correct, the objective in PvE is to win 100% of the time. That’s the entire point of the speed runs people flock to forums to cry about…to win and do it quickly. I’m 100% sure non zerk also wants to win and do it fairly quickly….they just want to do it in their comfort zone, with extremely low chances of failure…hence the safety net stats. I also draw this conclusion from their constant attempts to slip into those few runs that are still posted as zerk only or speed runs. Its amazing that all of this zerk hate originates from something this simple. This massive desire to “hurt zerk” as was so aptly phrased in a previous post. Someone previous even correctly summed this up, that the only place the zerk meta even exists is in “developer abandoned content”…dungeons and fractals. Yet, you constantly see threads out there specifically wanting to punish players for playing with berserker gear. Since the new content we are talking about is all open world, why does it even matter to you all what any specific player is wearing? It would be a more relevant issue if we were still treating fractal 50 as the hot content in the game…or even if fractals were the source of the game’s best rewards now…neither is the case.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Simply put, because it’s currently one-dimensional. Pretty much everything has some situation where it is optimal, but current dungeon design only reflects a small portion of that.

Everything will have a meta, that is definite and unchangable. However, different content can have different metas. What I don’t understand is why some people are so vehemently against this idea.

Here are some examples of things they could do:

1. Boss has incredibly high armor. Assuming you must defeat the boss to advance, the meta for the path now includes Sinister/Carrion/Rabid condition builds; something currently absent from all dungeon metas right now.

2. NPC must be escorted with valuable cargo. Lots of ways to handle this one, with nuances increasing importance of DPS, healing, stealth, control, or defenses.

3. Spread out ranged enemies. Stack & smack tactics won’t work, so you have to survive pressure as you kill them.

All three of these are things that could be done to add variety. 5-zerk would still be able to complete the content, it just wouldn’t be optimal in those situations. If situations like these were mixed in along with situations we do see in dungeons, things would get a lot more interesting while still remaining doable by most compositions.

Okay:

Scenario 1. Now instead of holding a slot open specifically for a tank…you are now holding at least one slot open for a condi build. Still not a good thing. Still slows down group formation. Still restricts group composition (just as you said…a new meta). So either groups will be holding this slot for a pure condi build, will be looking for a condi build just for this one encounter/path, or will have someone swapping out for a condi character mid run…effectively wasting time getting a different character in to clear the content.

Scenario 2. I have yet to see an enjoyable implementation of a NPC escort mission. They are slow, they constantly back track after each fight, it takes control away from the players as far as success….if the npc stands in aoe or just happens to get focused. NPCs also glitch…which can be really annoying if you are looking for a fast run.

Scenario 3. Not a bad idea. Obviously favors toughness, vitality, healing power….but not a bad idea. This is already implemented in at least a few fractals…one in particular is the chanters/cultists on the final arch diviner fight on the cliff side fractal.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The alternative is that they change encounters in dungeon paths so that what is optimal for one encounter is not optimal for another in the same path. If the most efficient way to handle a dungeon path is with a wide variety of builds (including gear, because gear is an important part), rather than 5 glass cannon (and yes, it is possible to manage this without forcing certain builds), then I would say that’s a pretty healthy meta. Everything is important to bring because, at some point, it will be the most efficient thing to have.

This is exactly what I’m referring to. Why is it so important to “fix” what isn’t broken? What possible justification can there be for this, than to make content harder for one specific play style? Its not as if nomads can’t clear the content. If everyone can clear the content, with no major issues, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Honestly, what I’m reading between the lines in these posts, is that people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their selfish stats like vitality and toughness to somehow be valuable to groups. Making that happen will only introduce negatives into the game. Those negatives would be tanking requirements and reduction in freedom in group composition. It would be absolutely terrible to have to hold a slot in groups for someone who can tank. It would open up more requests/requirements to link gear and builds to qualify for that slot. You may as well add an inspect feature in the game if you go this route. I’m pretty sure phiw would not like that. I’m sorry, but I think people should stop complaining and trying to come up with ideas to fix what isn’t broken.

I see someone else upset that reflects do not scale off of defensive stats. You do realize that a nomad/cleric’s reflects actually perform the core function of reflect just as well as a zerk/assassin/rampager/etc. This core function being to protect the party/player from projectiles. Clearly, if you are geared as nomad/cleric….you have made a conscious choice to deal as little damage as possible…so why is the scaled damage dealt by reflected attacks any different than the even greater effect of your gear selection choice? I could get behind reflect skills having some sort of healing component…increased by healing power of the player who used the reflect skill though. Not sure how that would be implemented or if it would be terribly OP to get healed by preventing the damage the healing is supposed to compensate for…and damaging the attacker at the same time.

I think the question people should put thought into is why they think it is acceptable to try to make it difficult for any specific group of players to complete content? I’ve seen this same theme repeated in so many posts. There is always someone…usually more than one…posting “ideas” of how to make zerker players die and fail at completing content. The ideas range from making reflects not work anymore, making blinds not work anymore, making mobs attack faster to make incoming damage unavoidable, applying constant aoe damage to make low hp pool players die…or have to resort to wearing toughness/vitality gear, changing encounter/AI mechanics to somehow kill anyone not wearing toughness/vitality gear. All of these “ideas” are full of hypocrisy and completely absurd. The reason why are they are full of hypocrisy and so completely absurd follows:

1. Would it be okay if ANET added enrage timers to make all champs or higher kill anyone not doing enough damage after a certain amount of time in combat? This would be the equivalent to your “ideas” to kill zerk players, only it would affect soldier/cleric/nomad/and possibly condi sets instead. How good of an idea would it be if your “ideas” were turned on you instead of targeting zerk players who are not making any similar suggestions to make the game unplayable for you?

2. What exactly is the presence of a minority of players (zerk/assassin) doing to stop you from playing the game? What exactly are they stopping you from achieving or doing? What rewards are zerk players getting that you cannot? That being said…why are you devoting so much effort to forum crying and spouting “ideas” to ruin the fun of zerk players…instead of just enjoying the game…that they pay for the same as you?

Is this not the same thing that phiw has cried a river of forum tears over since the launch of this game? Phiw has always cried over being pressured to play a certain way…yet phiw is completely willing to try and force zerk/assassin to gear and play their way? At some point, ANET needs to acknowledge the hypocrisy and put their foot down. Stop forum balancing/forum expansion designing…just to appease some completely ridiculous whims of players who don’t even understand the implications of what they are clamoring for.

Zetsumei.4975:

One shot mechanics promote zerker meta. If there is someone wearing full zerker and someone wearing full pvt but both insta-down to the same one-shot attack if they dont dodge, then whats the point of having any toughness or vitality stats. There should be a viable option to build or sustain otherwise atleast where pve is concerned, all those fancy traitline and stat combinations are just for show and obselete.

Not really, a lot of the mechanics that one shot a zerk geared player will not one shot someone wearing pvt/cleric/nomad. For example, Mai Trin’s shadow shot, the cannon phase on Mai Trin, Mai Trin’s melee attack. That’s just the main boss I see the difference on, but yes…there are some one shots that will down anybody…regardless of what you are wearing or how you’re built. The main way I’ve been able to discern who is and is not wearing zerk type gear is by seeing players trying to pick up another player…and take attacks like Mai Trin’s to the face…and their hp bar barely move. If my zerk guard takes any of those without aegis or protection…I’m either down or barely hanging on to a few hp points. So no…I can’t really agree that one shot mechanics themseleves promote the zerker meta….its the active defense system in this game and the ability that gives to avoid one shots that promote the zerker meta.

If you take away active defenses and the one shots that active defenses allow you to avoid, then we may as well be playing a coordinated dance game…as there will be no excitement or challenge. That probably wouldn’t hold anyone’s interest if you could just stand around immune to death.

Just knowing what to avoid does not make it boring…you also have to actually execute on avoiding it. That’s the same thing that makes all action based mmo combat exciting…executing on the strategy…even if you have researched it already. Even in trinity based games…you still know what’s coming…you just have to execute on the strategy to overcome it. I’d even say trinity based games are even more cheesed and scripted. They are even more like a coordinated dance…you just have different players doing different dances at the same time, versus the GW2 version of everyone doing the same dance individually.

Harper.4173:

Nike.2631:

Galespark.7835:

Adding to Conncepts post, I just assume good players wearing zerker will not be knocked into those firefields since they can dodge/block, or keep an ace up their sleeves for when it does happen to them (teleport, invulnerability…).

I entirely agree, with the key word being “good”. There are a lot of mediocre people in Berserker gear because the game’s a lot more forgiving than folks realize. If I have an agenda its not to see Berserker rendered useless, it’s to see it rendered risky enough that people accept that even if they personally have spider-sense and can hit every crucial dodge, not everyone should roll that way for fear of excessive floor-licking.

You do realize the majority of players are not in zerker gear do you?

This^

I pretty much pug exclusively because I prefer the convenience of just grabbing a quick random fractal group, whenever I happen to be online. I would say more than 60% of players I’ve encountered are wearing something other than zerker gear. That 60% is probably and understatement. It amazes me how players are so caught up in trying to find and justify ways to penalize players who wear zerker gear. Its not as if the entire PvE model isn’t based on one shot mechanics already….that by default…penalize zerker gear more than any other gear type.

I’m actually in favor of mechanics that involve strategy…versus always staying in a stack…not that I don’t like the stack either though. Just so long as the strategies aren’t gimmicks that become tedious after the first couple of times or that require you to gear differently to avoid getting an unavoidable one shot.

I don’t see the taunt mechanic as being a PvP only thing…as someone else pointed out…it will apparently be a contributor to the defiance/break bar in PvE apparently. I’m just wary of the slippery slope of introducing more and more things into the game that could eventually lead to requiring groups to bring someone to control aggro…hence an eventual tank requirement.

So I just read the article http://www.tentonhammer.com/interview/guild-wars-2-interview-jon-peters-and-kevin-stocker-talk-defiance-wyvern . I don’t know if I’m interpreting this correctly, but a read statements intimating that they are back peddling on the no trinity core of this game?

“When we wrote the original combat blog post, a lot of people assumed we didn’t want the trinity. It wasn’t an anti-trinity, it was more of a case of “this is how we want to do this type of combat and we want these roles and we want them to be flexible.” not ‘Hey, we don’t want people supporting!’”.

They have already announced a “taunt” skill and now this.

I also read this exchange:
“Ten Ton Hammer: Do you envisage players moving away from pure Berzerker builds thanks to things such as Defiance?

Jon: I think the hope is that the more we can do that – we don’t want to discourage it."

I get the impression that they are purposefully trying to force players into “tankier” builds?

They also appear to be trying to seriously diminish casual play? “this new system is about players working together and coordinating. Our new Defiance bar regenerates and generally on the core stuff, it’s going to regenerate pretty quickly. It’s a lot more about working together to time your crowd control skills to create that moment.” We all know how coordinated the average group of randoms can be in this game. I’m even reading that the old content will be updated with this new philosophy. This just seems like an odd and poorly thought out example of forum balancing…since making cc more useful and redesigning encounter mechanics has been a rallying cry on the forums, for non zerk, for quite some time now. I don’t think the people calling for this have really thought out how much this will also negatively affect them. They are actually less organized in most cases than zerk players…as most of them will just try to do their own separate things in encounters…whereas zerk usually coordinates the exact same strategy. I’m thinking this new break bar and coordinated burst phase strategy is going to garner a river of unexpected tears until the same top tier of players comes up with the optimal strategy and causes it to revert to the same status quo current content is at. Ultimately, I think this is going to put phiw in a worse situation than it currently is due to the coordination requirements.

I’m just waiting to see how these, not so subtle, moves towards the trinity play out as well. I’m not sure I want to buy a GW2 version of the trinity when there are so many games out there that are actually designed around the trinity specifically. Especially since I bought this game, in large part, to escape the trinity and its pitfalls.

They really do need to do something about this. My bank is and several characters are accumulating ascended armor and weapon chests that I have no use for due to terrible stats and repeated armor chests for the same two armor slots…shoulders and gloves. They need to leave the stats open to select what we want and the armor chests open to select the armor slot and stats that we want. Its not like they don’t already have the in game tech to do this…I can’t think of a good reason as to why they are leaving it like this. This isn’t even a new argument.

discosoc.6510:

Second impression: I’m definitely feeling a lot weaker than I’d like… My first special skill (aoe illusions) seems to be useless in terms of damage, and my phantoms (illusions?) don’t seem to switch targets with me. Not to mention getting phantoms out is a slow process in the first place.

If by weaker, you mean damage output, then that likely means you are trying to use aspects of the profession that you are not traited for. I assume you mean mind wrack, when you talk about your first special skill. That is a shatter skill, and unless you trait extensively for shatter damage and gear/build for power…it will be garbage damage. No, illusions do not switch targets…which is a design fail on ANET’s part in my opinion. Luckily, if you trait for specific weapons and specific traits in illusions…you can trait to significantly decrease the cool down on summoning specific phantasms.

Final impression: Looks like my phantom/illusion things only have one hp, so fighting anything with a cleave/aoe ability means I’m just autoattacking for crappy damage. Considering how common aoe seems to be in this game…

There are also traits and utilities to greatly increase the survivability of phantasms. Again, this is all going to depend on you choosing a decent build for what you are trying to do. You won’t be able to just choose a random build and have it be good for every aspect of the class…you are going to have to specialize. There is no such thing as a phantasm and shatter build. It will be one or the other. Which ever one you do not choose…your mesmer will be crappy at that aspect.

So what’s the deal? What role is this class supposed to fill? I can’t do damage. I can’t solo anything for crap. I can’t do much in PvP because my core feature (phantoms) don’t last more than a few seconds. I can’t even zerg PvE stuff very effectively because it all dies before my abilities connect half the time.

You are supposed to fill all roles, with every class, with every build. That’s how this game is designed. There are no tanks, healers, or dps in this game. That’s one of the best things about this game. You are supposed to contribute in every aspect, all the time. You contribute damage, as nothing is accomplished if nothing dies. You contribute support and control with the effects of your attacks, utilities, phantasms. You are responsible for your own survival and contribution in this game…versus having to depend on some guy standing in the corner spamming a heal spell or someone face tanking mobs to keep them from attacking you. Everyone has their own heal ability. Everyone has the ability to dodge. Everyone has active defenses to keep themselves alive and keep their teammates alive.

Are dual swords just broken? Are these known issues getting fixed in the expansion? Is this something that will “get better” at max level? Are mesmer players just masochists?

There is absolutely nothing broken about dual swords. In fact, dual swords may be the strongest PvE build. Like a previous poster said, builds do not shine at all due to this terrible change ANET made to acquiring traits and leveling…until you are close to or at level 80. You just need the traits that support swords for it to shine. I personally prefer dual swords on my mesmer, but have often resorted to sw/focus due to our extreme lack of swiftness without the focus. The iWarden, the focus phantasm, is also very nice in that it can block/reflect projectiles and does very nice aoe cleave damage when traited properly. iSwordsman has higher single target damage and does a good job of avoiding cleaves due to its effect of leaping into and moving out of melee range intermittently. Off hand sword also has our block skill, which is extremely useful in at least PvE encounters.

Doctor Faustus.6372:

well to me the mesmer’s shield in the trailer seemed more to be like an burstweapon.
he casted an damaging aoe with it.
they made a ranged hammer so i think they might be able to design a damage shield.

Maybe have a charge/shield bash type move with evasion frames as the other shield ability. Maybe give it a 1 second stun/interrupt.

ronpierce.2760:

Donari.5237:

They did say in the blog that the Revenant has a lot of in-combat mobility but not without something targeted.

Seems a lot like Guardian. I don’t see the issue with that. Imo the game needless out of combat abusable mobility, not more.

Define what you mean by abuse? How does using a mobility skill out of combat constitute abuse? What exactly is it abusing? Is it abusing fun? If you are referring to something pvp/wvw related, starting combat with a leap or teleport is no different than starting combat with a ranged attack.

I’d be happy with high uptime of ooc swiftness, regardless of legend choice though.

Test.8734:

ODB.6891:

I’m just going to assume I am jumping the gun like so many others, but I’m noticing the distinct lack of both a zerk type legend and a melee power weapon.

Ah, so you think the Revenant should have a legend that is superior to all the others in PvE, leading people to using it and nothing else?

Yay -_-

So I’m re-reading what I wrote and somehow I fail to see where I said I think that the Revenant should have anything superior to anything in any mode. Strangely enough, I’m also failing to see where I said anything about PvE or what anyone chooses to use in any game mode. Maybe its just me…but that whole comment came off a little kitten? Not quite sure why you apparently think that only bunker and condi should get a legend and not zerk.

Invictus.1503:

ODB.6891:

Invictus.1503:

I think you are right, you’re jumping the gun. They will almost surely have MH sword which will likely be a melee power type of weapon (maybe a mix of power and condi).

As for a TH weapon, I agree with a lot of people and hope they do NOT give greatsword. However, I completely believe they will give a staff as a melee weapon. In the original trailer, they showed it. Many thought it a spear (but Anet said this wasn’t so) and then people thought it was hammer, but they just showed the hammer and it is a 1,200 range weapon with no animation that matches the trailer. At this point it is hard to say it isn’t a staff.

I for one, am very psyched about this!

I have to say I’m overly skeptical about them implementing a melee staff. That opens the door to having to implement a completely new set of animations to go along with that…martial arts type animations to go along with staff attacks. That would be a ton of work on top of them already having to rework a ton of other things…after they have already put so much effort into turning hammer into a ranged weapon. I’m not very excited about the prospect of melee attacking with what amounts to a stick either. I’m not saying its impossible though. I’d also note they haven’t introduced a fully ranged condi weapon either. That leaves scepter, long/short bow, or staff. I doubt they’ll clone mesmer GS for this as I assume that mesmer GS is supposed to be a special snowflake.

You make some good points, but I hold to my theory due to a few things:
- Staff can be a very deadly melee weapon. There is an old Chinese story of the greatest swordsman of his time who won every duel and battle he ever fought, save for one. When he fought a vagabond wielding a simple staff.
- If it wasn’t a hammer in the trailer, what was it? The animations are there already
- They made a point in the last POI of saying multiple times that the Revenant uses weapons like no other profession. This applies to the unorthodox hammer use and I think continues to apply to the staff (they did use the plural of weapons)
- They seem to be trying to make the Revenant very unique. How better to do this then to give them unique ways of using old weapons, and not having them rely on the most overused weapon in the game, the greatsword?

I can see them possibly doing that with a staff..would be interesting at least to see them make that work.

Invictus.1503:

I think you are right, you’re jumping the gun. They will almost surely have MH sword which will likely be a melee power type of weapon (maybe a mix of power and condi).

As for a TH weapon, I agree with a lot of people and hope they do NOT give greatsword. However, I completely believe they will give a staff as a melee weapon. In the original trailer, they showed it. Many thought it a spear (but Anet said this wasn’t so) and then people thought it was hammer, but they just showed the hammer and it is a 1,200 range weapon with no animation that matches the trailer. At this point it is hard to say it isn’t a staff.

I for one, am very psyched about this!

I have to say I’m overly skeptical about them implementing a melee staff. That opens the door to having to implement a completely new set of animations to go along with that…martial arts type animations to go along with staff attacks. That would be a ton of work on top of them already having to rework a ton of other things…after they have already put so much effort into turning hammer into a ranged weapon. I’m not very excited about the prospect of melee attacking with what amounts to a stick either. I’m not saying its impossible though. I’d also note they haven’t introduced a fully ranged condi weapon either. That leaves scepter, long/short bow, or staff. I doubt they’ll clone mesmer GS for this as I assume that mesmer GS is supposed to be a special snowflake.

I’m just going to assume I am jumping the gun like so many others, but I’m noticing the distinct lack of both a zerk type legend and a melee power weapon. So far we have a condi legend and a bunker legend. I heard or read in one of the releases so far that there are more legends on the way, so I’m assuming that will cover the zerk type legend. I also heard the this recent POI, that there will be other weapons released for the Revenant. I’m hoping of of those will be mh sword or mh axe, as they are the only remaining 1h mh choices…since mh mace is apparently going to be a semi ranged/condi weapon. I see a decent bit of push back on giving Revenant a melee GS option in a different thread, but I think that is a given since they have already made hammer into a range weapon for the Revenant.