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I support this
Could even go one step further and allow use of utilities in shroud
This^
i usually log on for a little bit to fight tequatl – that point seems moot now as it’s ridiculously overpowered….so i have to pass on that
i use to wvw , but since the match balances were never addressed, and right now it’s an op 1 shotter fest ….while my server jumped up to a higher rank/bracket in wvw …we are a small team but we are good …so now we are trashed for the next few fights
the spvp is just not for me…. i’d work on my grandmaster characters but the new ‘features’ and new ‘crafter’ might make that effort moot
i’m at a loss, and don’t even feel confident to choose something else i might enjoy doing because it will be upgraded to some form of parcheesi in some future patch.
it’s not the price of the expansion that’s bugging me, it’s the fact that they always seek to kill what i start having fun doing! I kind of want to log in now to play but feeling this big “Why?!” question from deep in my soul!
Fortunately debating with you guys has proven to be fun and intellectually stimulating.
what’s wrong with this picture ?!i think anet needs to send us a memo of what they want us to do, cuz seriously, i’m not enjoying this play as you want, then they kill the things we play with.
I can’t help but agree with you, I do tend to spend more time on the forums battling white knights than playing the game lately. They do tend to present more entertainment than the GW2 game. I think its ANET’s forum balancing that has led to this. They would really have no clue as to what to do with their game if it was not for the forums.
…
If the pre-purchase window really is until launch, then I’ll go along, but I definitely have an issue with a blind pre-purchase like it currently is. So it is not a moot point just yet. I still think its a slimy move to have the ability to play one of the few major features of the new game/expansion…blocked by an additional pay wall or a blind purchase…but that may be resolved if they eventually reveal content worth paying $50 for before the pre-purchase period ends. I’m going to have to agree to disagree with you on the character slot until this reveal.
This ^ for all the white knights to read and more importantly, comprehend! It can’t be stated any more clearly or logically than this. HoT is a separate purchase from the original GW2 game, which we did already pay for. Those 8 classes and 5 character slots were bought and paid for a long time ago…they have absolutely nothing to do with this current purchase. Stop trying to refer back to a previous purchase, to try to excuse what they are cheating us on, in this current expected purchase. For this price, this should be a functional product right out of the “box”. The car example fits perfectly. The product you buy should be fully functional, no matter who the buyer is. Whether you bought a previous product from them or not, you should still be able to fully utilize this new product without having to buy extra from them. It is exactly like expecting someone to buy a new car and not including enough wheels to drive it…just because they bought a previous car. ANET needs to make a choice, either this is an expansion (lower the price and omit the character slot) or this is a full product (include full product benefits).
You’re not being cheated. Players made the choice to use up the five character slots that came with the core game. They then had to purchase additional slots to play the remaining classes. There’s no reason that the expansion was required to come with an additional character slot because of a new class. This argument is kind of moot now that all veterans who pre-purchase the game get an additional character slot.
The car example fails for reasons that I had already stated. Examples of not getting the keys/tires for the car would apply to the core game and not the expansion. The car and the core game are the same with an expansion being an extension of that.
Again….references back to a product we already paid for are invalid. Yes, I chose to fully utilize what I already paid for. I would also choose to fully utilize this new product that happens to be at nearly the same price as that previous product. The issue is that I cannot fully utilize this new product in its current form…unless I give them my money in advance (with no release date, no reasonable listing of included content, etc). Again, yes the car example does apply. In fact, you can substitute any other product you expect to work out of the box in the car example’s place. Any other example that you pay the identical price as you paid for the previous version of that same product. This example is the same whether you think of it as not including any wheels, any seats, or missing even the steering wheel. They are selling an incomplete product that does not fully function unless you buy more from them…and they are selling it at nearly the same price as they sold the previous…fully functional product. If they want us to consider it as an expansion…essentially as an add on to the previous purchase…then it needs to be at an add on price.
Clearly this is not a moot point…as you and some others try to dismiss this as. This is a disrespectful and greedy move by ANET. They are disrespecting the intelligence of their existing players to expect them to not see this…although apparently there are some existing players who are easy marks. I’ve walked away from several companies…to never do business with them again…for less than this. I think many existing players will likely follow this pattern if ANET continues this. It isn’t really even about the money….its about respect and honesty.
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Where is written in stone that everybody is looking for extra slots?!
The expac comes with a new class. It’s one of the few things we actually know for sure that will actually be in the (rather under-contented & overpriced) expansion.
It seems perfectly reasonable to expect that everything needed to enjoy the content of the expansion actually comes with the expansion, right? In the same way when you buy a new car, you expect to be able to drive it.
Therefore, everyone who buys the expac, should get a character slot included, no further questions or qualifications required.
Your car scenario is not the same as here and does not apply. An expansion containing a new class does not mean that it must come with an expansion slot no more than a game is required to come with as many character slots as there are classes. You made the choice to use up your allotted character slots that came with the game.
There are character slots available for purchase. You may also take advantage of the pre-purchase bonus or purchase either of the two packages beyond standard to get this additional character slot. If you choose to not take up any of those options then that is your own choice.
Those initial 8 classes and 5 character slots came with the original game. I already paid for those. The expac comes with a single, new class, which is not possible to play for most existing players without deleting one of their existing characters.
Once again, this is like buying a new car and the salesman not giving you any wheels on the second car because your first car already came with wheels.
This ^ for all the white knights to read and more importantly, comprehend! It can’t be stated any more clearly or logically than this. HoT is a separate purchase from the original GW2 game, which we did already pay for. Those 8 classes and 5 character slots were bought and paid for a long time ago…they have absolutely nothing to do with this current purchase. Stop trying to refer back to a previous purchase, to try to excuse what they are cheating us on, in this current expected purchase. For this price, this should be a functional product right out of the “box”. The car example fits perfectly. The product you buy should be fully functional, no matter who the buyer is. Whether you bought a previous product from them or not, you should still be able to fully utilize this new product without having to buy extra from them. It is exactly like expecting someone to buy a new car and not including enough wheels to drive it…just because they bought a previous car. ANET needs to make a choice, either this is an expansion (lower the price and omit the character slot) or this is a full product (include full product benefits).
Easy prepurchase or wait for a sale were you feel its low enough you can afford game and a char slot
Or buy it for gold if you are a veteran you should have enough
That’s a work around on the customer’s part. Why should existing customers have to solve this problem instead of the offering by ANET being made reasonable? We already know what we can do…and yes…its an easy fix. That’s beside the point. The point is that ANET is mishandling their existing player base and what people are expecting is a reasonable response from ANET. Its not an unreasonable expectation to be able to enjoy the entire product you purchase without having to either go to extra expense or to delete part of what you already paid for.
Wow, I’m kinda impressed and shocked at the same time. Not about Anet, I think it’s good that the company did some reflection on their marketing strategies.
In fact I’m really shocked about our community here. You “only” get the free charslot if you pre-purchase? So if you instantly pay 50$, with still no additional info about the content? And if you choose to take your right to wait and decide later on, you won’t get the charslot? Wow, just wow. Again, kudos to ArenaNet for taking this step. But the comm…. ugh, sometimes I don’t get this world anymore. Everything’s just forgotten and great+shiny all over again. Sigh…
I still wont pre-purchase since the real problems haven’t even been dealt with imo. Gosh, I’m 23 years old and already feel to old for this stuff.
Edit @Nanashi
Thank god I’m not the only one who feels stunned and kind of empty from the reactions we see here.
Its a classic and time honored tactic. People are just so simple that they are still falling for it. Present a truly terrible option. Let people rage about it to the point of insanity. Provide a token peace offering (refunds for being mislead and character slot that should have been in the base offering). All the marks are perfectly fine at this point with the slightly less terrible offering (still unclear what it is that you are actually paying for and the peace offering is only if you blindly accept the slightly less terrible offering and give up your money without clarity on what you are paying for).
Don’t get me wrong…its decent that they corrected the mistakes. I also have some doubts that they would made the mistake intentionally…since this is brand damaging. What I think happened is that their PR department came up with this tactic as a way out of a bad situation….just with the hopes that sheep won’t see past the token…through to the persisting original issue…ambiguous value for purchase amount. I think its slimy how they are trying to pressure pre-purchases, with the character slot, that should be included regardless of pre or post purchase.
I’m in the camp that this move shouldn’t elicit all the praise and adulation ANET is getting right now…since I’m pretty sure the level of public backlash, across so many venues, is the real reason for this back peddling on the character slot and more comprehensive refunds. This wasn’t a goodwill gesture…its a public relations bail out. Like many others have said, there were tons of opportunity via forum feedback on the need to include a character slot to play the revenant…that were just ignored. This lack of the slot wasn’t an accident or an oversight…it was a strategy that blew up in their faces. They are still trying to hold onto that strategy, to an extent, now…by limiting the character slot to blind pre-purchases only.
Just because there’s a new profession doesn’t automatically make you eligible for a free character slot. Yes, you have to delete an already existing character or buy a new one for $10. That’s just how it is. And the new players don’t get any free character slots either. They get the same amount than everyone else the only difference being that they haven’t filled those slots yet but you can hardly blame them for that.
You are 100% correct, just because there’s a new profession does not automatically make you eligible for a free character slot. What does make me automatically eligible for this character slot is that I would be paying for it. One of the primary advertised selling points of HoT is the new profession. That is one of the primary reasons I would purchase HoT…to play the revenant. The problem is they want me to pay twice to play this new profession. They want me to pay for the game at the new customer pricing (who gets to play revenant with no additional costs) and pay for the additional character slot…just because I’m already a customer. That’s just either greed or poor design.
I could quote myself… but KISS:
You can get the exact same. A brand new account including GW2 base Game and the Expansion on top. That is the exact same a new player gets and you can too.
Having to start a brand new account, just to get the equal value for your purchase, is a penalty to most vets instead of an equal value. Starting a brand new account…instead of upgrading the existing account (because you won’t be able to do both with the same code), means you will not even get the value of adding specializations to your existing characters. This will mean invalidating all of the effort you have put into those characters…essentially negating your veteran status. A new player has nothing to lose from the current offer, in fact, they have everything to gain from it. This is the opposite for a veteran. Yes, there are some vets who play so much, that they would benefit from a second farm account…there are some who would not. Yes, one option would be to include two separate game codes in the HoT purchase (one for the original, one for HoT). That would work for the extreme vets who spend that much time in game, but unless that separate HoT code can be used twice…to upgrade both original GW2 accounts…then it has a problem too. I think the real solution is to give equivalent value to vets if they aren’t going to provide separate pricing options. Equivalent value would include additional character slots, skins, titles, etc. The additional character slots would be key for me…as I am one of many who have filled all original character slots with characters I would prefer not to delete…especially not on the hopes that a revenant will be more fun than the deleted character. Its poor design/greed to sell an expansion including a new profession…while excluding the ability to even play this new profession unless more money is spent. The short of this is that we are 100% not getting the exact same thing that a new player is. We are just paying for the same thing and expected to take a huge penalty if we do want the same thing as a new player.
Theres a third option too, dont buy it. See how simple it is?
1. I would say a significant percentage of vets have already decided not to buy it.
2. Regardless of whether they are going to buy it or not…they have every right to voice their opinion on these forums about it.
3. Its funny how every white knight about this falls back to the “don’t buy it statement”…after all of their intended points have been countered into nothingness.
4. Loop back to #1
I paid $150 for GW2. I paid $100 for HoT. All because I feel like I get more than my money’s worth. I’ve never looked at what the player next to me payed or what they recieved. But it looks like I am in the minority.
What would you like Anet to include in the veteran version?
Character slots. It wouldn’t be exactly equivalent to getting two games for the price of one, but it would be an acceptable compromise to me at least. I’m not just talking about 1 character slot either…I think it should be approximately 2-3 character slots included. When I purchased the original game…for this same price, I got 5 character slots, tons of new maps, all of the current professions, etc. With this purchase, I stand to get 1 new profession (without even an available slot to create it), 1 acknowledged new map, some wvw/pvp stuff (less than from the original purchase), and an additional trait line/options for characters (i got 5 trait lines for each character with my original purchase). The rest of the new stuff is going to be released to everyone without any purchase…so not considered in the $50.
No…really didn’t put much thought into it when I was typing that…more focused on the relevant lack of content.
What are we getting altogether then?
Really not following your reason for continuing these questions, as you seem to already be aware of what we are getting, but I’ll bite. I’m assuming this is an attempt to be snarky/condescending and test my knowledge, but okay…
We are getting changes to the trait system and leveling system in the upcoming patch like you said. I believe we are getting a pvp/wvw map of some sort also in the patch..I may be wrong about that part as I pretty much ignore that stuff. They are updating the wallet to free up bag space…pretty much a fix.
The expansion will include elite specializations…essentially fill-ins for holes in existing character design. It will also include at least one new pve map. It will include the mastery system…essentially a reputation grind to keep us busy and make the new map more interesting. We are getting one new profession…that they aren’t even giving us a default slot to use…after nearly 3 years of filling our existing character slots up from the first time we purchased the game. That’s about it…undoubtedly I overlooked something though.
Oh yeah…I did forget something…guild halls.
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The meat of this “expansion” appears to be a rework of the trait system, legendary system, leveling system, and flawed designs for the original professions…essentially fixes to the original game that they apparently were intentionally withholding to sell to us instead.
The trait and leveling changes are coming Tuesday, not with the expansion.
It does strike me as a little strange that they’d open pre-purchasing before reveling what the expansion has in total.
No skin of my back to wait though.
Okay, that just means there’s even less content included for the $50.
Did you expect them to use two different trait systems? Just curious.
No…really didn’t put much thought into it when I was typing that…more focused on the relevant lack of content.
The meat of this “expansion” appears to be a rework of the trait system, legendary system, leveling system, and flawed designs for the original professions…essentially fixes to the original game that they apparently were intentionally withholding to sell to us instead.
The trait and leveling changes are coming Tuesday, not with the expansion.
It does strike me as a little strange that they’d open pre-purchasing before reveling what the expansion has in total.
No skin of my back to wait though.
Okay, that just means there’s even less content included for the $50.
So the biggest thing we need right now is information. What are we getting for 50 dollars. What are the remaining specializations? How about breaking out some info for us to delve into that isn’t just media blurbs designed to raise hype.
I understand that the expansion is still in a beta state but if your willing for us to pay money for something that doesn’t have any concrete release date, how about showering us with information to make a reasonable choice so we can vote with our cash to see if the new thing is worth it?
This^
I could care less about the original game being bundled with HoT purchase. What I care about is the value I would get for my $50. I care about the additional content I would be getting for this purchase price. That is what an “expansion” is all about right?
I find this evasiveness by ANET to be extremely sketchy. I don’t spend my money on sketchy. To launch pre-orders without even fully detailing exactly what will be in the expansion…that’s really shady. The reveals so far are not adding up to a purchase of the same price as the original entire game. They aren’t even offering a single character slot for what amounts to a repurchase of the original game. They are unclear on how many new maps/zones will be included. The meat of this “expansion” appears to be a rework of the trait system, legendary system, leveling system, and flawed designs for the original professions…essentially fixes to the original game that they apparently were intentionally withholding to sell to us instead.
Despite all of that, I’d still buy a GW2 expansion. My issue, again, is price for what is being offered. I find it ridiculous and hilarious at the same time how all of these white knights are out in full fan boy fervor attacking anyone who points these things out. You would have to be a complete moron or just be so wealthy that you enjoy throwing money at sub par products…to just ignore the value to cost ratio of your purchases. I don’t find myself in either of those categories. I know I definitely throw way too much money away on superfluous things, but I draw the line at willingly allowing myself to be taken for a ride like this. I’m going to have to see some finished product with a reasonable amount/quality/variety of content before I spend new/stand alone game amounts of money on this “expansion”. I was already on the fence about purchasing HoT regarding their extreme propensity for forum balancing, their trend towards trinity mechanics, lack of continued dungeon/instanced content, and focus on open world zerg content exclusively. I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in my skepticism concerning this expansion at the moment. They need to step up with some honesty and reveal exactly what this “expansion” is going to include. They need to re-evaluate the importance of existing players…versus only focusing on grabbing new players. Who releases an “expansion” with this little content and does not even include a new character slot?
I like GW2, been playing since it released, but like so many others I have come to a point where I can’t really “progress” any further. I’ve got all my ascended armour/weapons/accessories. I’ve got my character looking exactly the way I want, so I’ve no need to grind extra skins (until something is released which I like the looks of more than what I currently have equipped, but you never know when that’ll be).
I’ve heard that HoT is meant to be bringing some form of progression in but how does it work exactly? I’m not looking for WoW style treadmill grind or anything like that, that’s not what I’m saying… I just need some new form of progression to set my focus on.
Thanks guys.
We’re getting the GW2 equivalent of WoW’s reputation grind.
I would go ahead and craft the component items like vision, lesser vision crystals, bolts of damask, etc in preparation…instead of just waiting. You can then use those items to craft the optimal set at the point when they finally reveal the semi-finished product.
I ran dungeons for the rewards, the opportunity to really give my character a “performance test” of sorts, the teamwork involved with small groups, the time involved versus other content types, and general lack of interest with open world grind/zerg fests.
I have had both the best and worst experiences in small group content. A great group, with like minded players, is an amazing experience…like a well-oiled machine. I tend to view my characters almost like sports cars. I like them to be high performance output and to turn on a dime. I like the challenge of squeezing as much performance out of them as possible. I find it exciting to play glass, always on the edge of getting downed, but timing dodges/active defenses perfectly. I find the combo field system pretty fun too…at least on professions that have decent combo finisher options. These are things you can only get in small group content to any significant degree. You can’t even notice the effects of things like this in a huge zerg. The flip side of this comes with being in a really bad group…those are the worst experiences I have had in this game.
So you play a game for 3 years and up until this point, you can basically get everything. Now the company changes the product so you can’t. That’s another form of unfairness.
If I ate at a restaurant every week and they decided to raise the prices so I couldn’t afford them, I’d stop eating there. But I also might feel angry that they raised the prices so much.
I think it’s more immature to not acknowledge basic human nature than it is to try to justify calling people names for no real reason. It doesn’t strengthen your argument.
It’s not a case of I can’t get this so I’m taking my ball and going home. It’s a question if I used to feel comfortable here and now I don’t so I’m leaving.
You don’t have to get angry or throw a tantrum to leave. You’re simply making a decision based on what’s best for you. That’s what mature people do all the time. We look at what we’re doing, see if it’s worth our time and energy, and if it’s not, we walk away. I’ve walked away from TV shows that started strong and suddenly didn’t fit the bill anymore. I can do with same with a game.
This isn’t just about not having. It’s being sold and playing one thing and then switching it to something it wasn’t. Your attempt to make it sound like immaturity shows a lack of understanding of the issue.
You can’t really change a product mid-stream and not expect some backlash, unless you’re changing it to make it better…and by better I mean better for the majority.
This changing of a product mid-stream is exactly what ANET has done. Like so many others have posted…they did start out with both instanced and open world content. They have since broken this contract and only gone with open world content now. You are correct, it is a sad thing that many, including myself have been patiently waiting on them to honor this contract and implement more instanced content. Luckily, this game is F2P, so I haven’t exactly lost anything in the interim. As far as catering to the majority goes…that’s a double edged sword. Eventually, when you cut off enough minorities….then you are left with almost nothing.
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What I get from this whole argument….“If its something I might have a hard time completing….then I don’t want anyone to have it!” This doesn’t seem to be a very mature standpoint.
…snip…
In the end, the above quote still holds true….regardless if that is what ANET ends up making their decisions based on or not. You pretty much admitted that this is all about making the content faceroll easy so players can get whatever rewards they want via pay to win or whatever path of least resistance they choose. Your whole argument was about making sure that rewards were not “locked behind” any content type that you either didn’t want to do or can’t complete. This argument logically lead to not wanting any content that you did not desire to do or could not do available to anyone else. Its illogical to get indignant when that is showcased.
ANET has proven themselves to be forum balancers over and over again. Whether or not they make the decision to only include faceroll 11111111 spamming content for zergs or if they choose to add some content to support skilled play…that’s up to them. Ultimately, I agree with you on this being a business decision. If they are even looking at game play numbers…and not true forum balancing again…and they see that 1111111 is the most money…I can’t really blame them for choosing the 1111111. In the end, 111111 is going to be excessively boring and will eventually lead to migration of even casuals to the next game…that does have some excitement level attached. If they want a lasting game…they would allocate resources to both.
I will admit, that your assessment of what they should do may be valid. Neither of us has the actual raw data to show participation in any specific content type or the raw data to show trends on who would participate. Even if we did, the ship has probably sailed on that data no longer being accurate as players who would have participated have long since left this game. I has been years since ANET did provide any content for this type of player. I think the only reason I’m still around is the lack of viable alternative games.
I lost hope for removal of the HP bar of DS it would take a while to distribute sustain to the rest of necro as well, DS just needs to be less restrictive especially with heals and utilities, I’m not sure why it’s here yet and we have to wait for trait changes when the power creep is happening.
It would be such a perfect solution. No more excuses for why we can’t have utilities in DS/RS. No more excuses to not allow incoming allied heals. No more excuses to not allow us active defenses. No excuse to not allow some type of reflect/projectile block. An actual solution to getting trained/focused in pvp environments…since we would then have access to active defenses for an invul/block possibly.
2. DS/RS can no longer be cancelled/removed/shortened by attacking us. LF can only be consumed by DS/RS abilities.
That would mean that as long as you don’t use any skills you are immune to damage.
What I’m referring to is removing the Life force bar altogether. No more second health bar. Just have DS/RS be a cosmetic transform with the second set of abilities. Like the warrior adrenaline bar, only retain the unique abilities that come with DS/RS while it is active. I’m advocating for all damage mitigation/blocks/invulns to come from traits, weapon, DS/RS skills, and utilties…essentially active defenses like all other professions.
Way to post a 2010 article about a design that was quite obviously scrapped long before the first closed beta was even opened. Just the fact that the devs haven’t talked a single time about that design for 2 years after the game’s release is quite obvious they didn’t knew what to do with it.
When they broke the silence on it in an interview, I don’t have the exact quote but they basically said that the point they were trying to achieve with their dungeon design was to let players play however they want, not to ban players from ever doing anything other than DPS. Pretty sure Colin also said something in AngryJoe’s interview about supporting variety of playstyles when asked about the zerk meta.
Looking at the revenant class and the elite specializations revealed so far, it looks like they’re actually throwing a bone to players who are tired of the pure zerk meta and are going to try to encourage a larger variety of play styles. I didn’t think they’d ever go as far as what I saw with the Ventari reveal, but it looks like a healer may actually be a thing in Heart of Thorns.
Honestly, the whole rhetoric of “if you want X you picked the wrong game” won’t bring the game anywhere. Game design documents are not sacred and immutable artifacts and if the game goes in the wrong direction the developers should not be encouraged to sit on their mistakes and do nothing. And it’s pretty obvious that their original group PvE design was not a good idea because it’s the only aspect of the game that hasn’t been copied. WvW has been copied. World events have been copied. The more active combat has been copied. Living World has not been copied as far as I know but ex-WoW lead designer Greg Street has said that episodic content is pretty much what he’d do if he were to make another MMO. But there hasn’t been another game that has tried to copy how GW2 does it’s group PvE. That should be a pretty big hint that something is wrong.
First, this design intent was clearly not abandoned as there are still no dedicated roles. even the Revenant Ventari legend is still supposed to dps, support, and control…hence why it has a weapon to be used in melee range instead of spamming heals from the back line. This legend is also only 1 of 5 total legends for the Revenant.
Second, players are already playing how they want and that has not and is extremely unlikely to change. If you want to slap on some nomad gear and trait for as much healing as possible…you can do that right now. No one is going to stop you. You can queue up in LFG and either group with people who want to play like that…or try forcing yourself on people who don’t want to play like that. Obviously…one choice is better than the other. I have the same choices when I choose zerk gear. I can choose to join a group that says “all welcome” and suffer though it, or I can join a group that advertises my desired play style and actually enjoy the run. We are already playing how we want…we just aren’t trying to get the developers to force our play style on others…at least I’m not. They have been supporting all play styles since the game launched…hence why you can complete any content in any gear stat combination.
I did not mention any rhetoric about you picking the wrong game…maybe you were referring to a different post. What I am saying is that people need to play the game within its design intent, or just accept that they are doing something less than intended. I’m fully aware that this game is a fluid and changing environment, but I’m also aware of the nature of what I purchased. There’s a difference in them adapting and improving the game…from them completely back peddling on the entire design intent on which they sold the game. The first is expected, the latter is fraudulent.
The point is that some people WANT to play a dedicated tank or healer role. It’s not being forced, that’s just how they want to play, and if the game is really supposed to let you play however you want then you should be allowed to play those roles IF YOU WANT. I know a lot of people who said “nope” to GW2 just because it wouldn’t really let them play healers.
It does NOT mean that it has to be mandatory to bring a healer or a tank in the future. It could be better in some fights, while for other fights the zerk meta might be better, and other fights might prefer totally new strategies. There’s a lot of things Arenanet can do here.
You do realize, that the moment it becomes necessary or even preferable to have a healer or a tank, then that becomes a mandatory role in groups? That means forced roles…even if not forced by the game itself…but forced by meta. As it is now, there is literally nothing stopping anyone from clearing any content. What exactly is broken about that? What part of that needs fixing? If you want to roll up into any content with 5 nomads…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to roll up into any content with 5 zerks…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to build your character based on healing….have at it. If someone wants to build their character based on all damage…the same applies…not sure why people have a problem with this fairness? This expectation that a group should be forced to accept your play style or choices is pretty ridiculous. Groups are made of players…not AI, and therefore should be free to make their own decisions on who and what they want to group with. This game is about fun…fun is not being forced to reserve group slots because you need a healer or a tank to survive. By the same token that players did not buy this game because of the lack of forced roles…there are lots of players that bought this game because they were not going to be forced into these same roles. The minute I log in and see that I can’t clear content because I have to wait for a tank or healer to join….or that I cannot get a group slot because they need a tank or a healer instead…that’s pretty much the end of me logging in to this game. I’m pretty sure there is a large population of players that feels the same way. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot, ANET, by trying to cater to players who failed to read the original game description or to players who can’t/refuse to adapt to a new game and its mechanics.
Re-read my post. I never said that it should be necessary or preferable. I said that it should be one way to play the game, among many others. From the moment you have several strategies available to you then of course sometimes one will be better than the other for a specific encounter but that’s how it should be. It would be a lot more interesting than zerk meta for 99% of the encounters.
And don’t tell me that it’s impossible because Blizzard (of all MMO developpers!) did it just fine when it introduced heroic scenarios in Mists of Pandaria. In those there were no role restrictions so you could bring whatever you wanted, and guess what? All DPS was not always the most optimized way to go. Bringing a tank or a healer was sometimes more efficient, sometimes not. And if Blizzard could pull this off with a game so deeply rooted in the tank/healer/DPS paradigm then Arenanet can definitely do it too.
There’s nothing that needs to be re-read. What you are asking for is exceedingly clear and what I said was equally clear. You don’t need to specifically say that it would be necessary or preferable to bring a healer…I said it. I said it because it is a definitely and extremely likely possibility of your suggestion. I have no idea of the validity of what WoW implemented as I left that game behind years ago. This is a different game, with different mechanics, and with different developers…apples and oranges. The fact is, this game does not need dedicated roles. In fact, the developers of this game specifically said they were not going to implement dedicated roles in the pre-launch info.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks
That’s all the information you could possibly need to answer any questions about the game design and intent. This is what we all purchased.
Nope I dont think it is moving that way, GW2 ALWAYS had support builds/rolls.
The game getting harder (maybe) doesnt mean it is still needed, Aegis/blinds/walls for 90% all fights will still be used.
Blinds/Protection boon/Walls/Aegis/Time warp ARE the Support sets for PVE Wvw/pvp is a different monster, but for PvE in order to NOT be forced into a Holy Trinity anet will keep it about the same, better AI and Mechanics doesnt me Trinity.
Those aren’t builds or roles, what you described is utilities. Every full zerker DPS can use blinds/prot/walls/aegis/time warp, there is no build or role required. Those are full dps characters who have the right utilities.
A healing rev will have to spec for healing and wear healing power gear in order to do enough healing for the entire party, that is a role. Currently nothing like that exists, everyone can run full zerker gear and still provide the exact same utility as someone in full nomads gear.
Hopefully we’ll see a similar role develop for tanks where they get a build that gives them tons of taunt and prot and they will benefit from full soliders or nomads gear.
what you described is also WRONG !
those are the traditional style trinity roles which are tied to stats and all that.
utilities ARE part of your build in gw2 it is THE reason zerkers can bring meaningful support…..This also points to yet another thing trinity lovers do that ticks me off !
trying to implement those trinity style ideas to a game that is vastly different.
if you don’t like how a.net implemented support and you wanna play a trinity style role system go play a trinity based game there problem solved.I for one like the ideas implemented though they are not perfect they are to me far better than the yee old stuffy trinity roles of getting stuck on one role you either do dps, tank or heal. what a boring crap.
You sound mad.
Are you mad latinkuro.7304?
I can understand he was mad…it is irritating for people to buy into a product and then endlessly complain after the fact to have it changed to a different product. It is extremely irritating to the other customers who bought it based on actually researching the product (like a good consumer should). I imagine it is also extremely irritating to the developers of said product…being pressured to change their product around completely because of people who couldn’t be bothered to read/research before purchase.
It’s my hope that ANet will stick to its “healing for others is optional” design. However, I’ve been disappointed more than once about the way they’ve rolled the game since launch. So I’m expecting the worst, and looking to see what else is out there/coming.
I don’t mind the idea of more options to provide healing, if that’s the way someone wants to go. After all, that is possible now. I am concerned that the Ventari legend might be so much more effective at it than the other professions. However, we have not seen the effect of the new core specs yet or whether healing coefficients on the skills of other core professions will be changed.
I would mind the idea that heal others would become mandatory in content. Also, if that much group heal is locked into one profession then making such necessary will make that profession mandatory. I’d view this as a game-breaking (for me) departure from ANet’s original design intent, as well as another thumb in the eye of those who bought the game based on their pre-launch design hype.
I’m with you on this. This continued trend towards the trinity is really making me look for a new game. The introduction of nomad gear, the introduction of taunt, and now this seemingly nearly dedicated healer. This all seems to be going south fast.
I dont see how that counters anything i said.
I don’t see how you can’t see it.
The affect that hard content has on casual players isn’t non-existence. It’s a palpable thing. It HAS an effect.
Half this thread is people saying that other people are selfish because they’re trying to stop something that has NO EFFECT on them. That’s simply not the case.
So IF this content is going to be introduced it comes with a risk. You might believe that risk isn’t a large risk and it MIGHT not be. But you can’t say it doesn’t affect those people who aren’t interested in it, because it does.
So it has to be handled very carefully.
My guess is, if Anet puts enough hard stuff in to satisfy the hard core crowd, they’re going to lose at least some of the casual crowd. Again the risk is there.
It’s easy to tell a company to take the risk because you want something…because it’s not your money that’s going to go if that risk doesn’t pay off.
What I get from this whole argument….“If its something I might have a hard time completing….then I don’t want anyone to have it!” This doesn’t seem to be a very mature standpoint.
This argument has gone from the false claim that adding instanced content will somehow take away from open world content….to now being about wanting all rewards to be purchasable/obtainable without earning them.
I’m sorry, but the core of your argument seems flawed. The core of this argument seems to be that you think exclusive rewards…that you have to beat something challenging to obtain…will lead to the abandonment of this game. That’s the opposite of what exclusive rewards do. Rewards that require effort are the corner stone of what gives a game longevity. It gives players something to work towards. People that bail out at even the thought of having to earn something…have weak attachments to begin with and will bail out eventually anyway.
I understand all the advantages that instances have. But a lot of people in favor of instances don’t seem to understand the disadvantages, or they deny them when other people point them out.
Having played many games centered around instances, I think I know some of the problems they cause. You can even see some of them here. The divide between “elitist” speed runners and casuals. The abuse of people who aren’t quite as efficient because the people they’re running with are so pro. The exclusion of certain professions from runs altogether.
That stuff doesn’t happen in the open world. It’s an equalizer. It allows people to play what they want, not in the most efficient manner. And you know, not all people see an RPG is as a system that has to be beat.
So if you lock the challenging content away in instances that are so hard you need specific builds to beat them, as was sometimes the case in Guild Wars 1, you end up with people demanding certain builds and you have a more toxic community in general. You may not see this as a problem but I do.
Even in the open world, harder content can cause tensions but no one can stop you from participating. That’s a big thing to some people.
So as much as I’d like to see forms of content that are challenging in the open world, I don’t want to see this stuff locked away instances so a small percentage of gamers can do harder content, particularly if that harder content rewards them in such a way that people who don’t want to do it are pressured to do it for those rewards.
That’s how it works in most games and I’ve always thought it sucked.
Here’s the problem you are not acknowledging. This is a game. Games are meant to be fun and challenging. For a significant portion of the player base, open world is not challenging. For this player base, open world is not even fun. I personally only grind open world when there is some specific reward there that I cannot get elsewhere. When I get that reward…bye bye open world. There are players who play games to push the limits of what they can do with their characters…you can’t get that in open world. That’s where instanced content comes in. Instanced content is the only venue where you can maximize the output of your character and game mechanics such as combo fields and cooperative teamwork. Open world is too full of those same people you described earlier as actually being challenged by open world….meaning that they have trouble just pressing 1 apparently. It leads to frustration trying to force these disparate groups to always have to play together…hence the beauty of instanced content.
No one is being excluded from any content…even in instanced content. That’s also the beauty of how ANET designed instanced content…anyone can beat dungeons/fractals…even people that have trouble pressing 1. If you are really wanting challenging content…then the difficulty level of instanced content can’t be what people are really objecting to? I’d say it has to be solely about wanting others to accept them unconditionally into their groups without the possibility of a kick. I’d say that’s just an unreasonable expectation…nothing to do with instances being a problem. That’s a people problem. There are plenty of groups that do accept anyone unconditionally. In fact, that would be the majority of groups that do accept unconditionally. There are no rewards locked away that are outside of anyone’s reach, people just need to learn to do more than press 1 and learn to play together…which is more than you ever get in open world. It isn’t unreasonable to expect people to learn to play the game in order to get the game’s rewards. People don’t expect to get pvp rewards by doing pve…no more unreasonable to expect people to learn to actually play pve to get all the pve rewards.
The best idea I can think of regarding DS/RS healing, would be to separate the damage reduction we get from shroud from the abilities we get from shroud. The real reason why they are so reluctant to allow us to be healed while shrouded..or to even access our utilities while shrouded is fear of the combination of these three things.
I propose:
1. DS/RS no longer has any innate damage reduction
2. DS/RS can no longer be cancelled/removed/shortened by attacking us. LF can only be consumed by DS/RS abilities.
3. Utilities, traits, ally support/heals become available at all times like every other class.
4. Our damage mitigation comes from traits, utilities, weapon skills, DS/RS skills.
Peeling off the damage reductions from DS/RS should allow us to be a fully functional profession with access to active defenses at that point. We could have access to utilities to support our group in the form of a reflect or two (spectral wall and death’s charge).
In my opinion what would make healers desirable but not mandatory would be something very simple like this:
- Out of combat health regeneration only starts after X minutes in open world PVE.
- Out of combat health regeneration doesn’t exist inside instances and dungeons at all.
These small changes would in my opinion promote healing while not specifically making it mandatory.
Just my 2 cents on the issue.
So this idea would effectively decrease quality of life factors for all players…just to push healers onto players. So players with their heal skill on CD, would essentially either have to stand around waiting on this (completely unnecessary) time gate to elapse…or harass another player for a heal.
There was nothing more annoying when playing a character in a game like WoW…when my character has a skill that can heal others…than to have someone demand healing from me. Regardless of me not being grouped with them. Regardless of my actual build…always something dps oriented. Regardless of what I’m doing.
Why don´t you people understand that bluntly making different gear prefixes “better” or “more viable” wont change anything?
There will always be most optimal strategies, team comps, builds and associated stat sets and the “meta” (a term being grossly misused in this context by some people here) will always settle around this optimum eventually.And this is a perfect example of how developer and player perspectives differ. (Many)players WANT there to be a best choice so they can take it. Every time I’m in game and I hear some new player ask “what’s the best class?” I throw up in my mouth just a little… because if there is a right answer to that question the designer has done something HORIBLY WRONG. If that best answer remains best across a large range of activities it just gets more wrong.
Please, get over it already and let the devs do their job.
This may come as a shock to you, but creating a system where there are multiple similarly desirable solutions IS THE JOB. The game delivers on this principle well in some places and much, much less so in others.
Part of the problem here is that you seem to think that the developers of this game, should ignore/throw away their original game design intent….and remake this game to be more like the game you want instead. NikeEU linked the clear design intent of the developers and you just completely brush it off and continue to argue for what those developers clearly said they did not want. They went to great lengths to make sure that there would be no dedicated tanks, healers, or any other specific role. They clearly stated they did this so that it would be much easier to form groups…and other reasons. They succeeded at that. No matter how much you argue the point, nothing you say is going to change that original design intent and the fact that they successfully implemented it. No its not perfect, but it works. Any departure from this original design intent…introducing forced/dedicated roles…is a betrayal of the customers who did read the game description before purchase.
Gear is just an optional supplement. If you want to use those extra supplements for your support builds you are free to do so. But dont expect the meta to go backwards when we can compensate for lack of healing power/boon duration through other means.
The same can be said about content. It shouldn’t be expected for the content to cater the current meta.
It shouldn’t be expected to cater to your desired meta either. Currently, it works for everyone.
Tldr:
Remove gear diversity, punish good players, reward bad players and make success depend on random rolls instead of skill and strategy.
I’m gunna have to go with no on this one.
1) Never said remove gear diversity. In fact I was increasing available options for gearing up. See point #3 as well.
2) Never said “punish” – There is a thread mocking the difficulty level of HoT already. Therefore I’m providing the “challenge” that all these good players want – while giving them a greater reward IF they can master it.
3) Not rewarding bad players. I’m providing them more options to make something they like with the play style they want.
4) Success is not to depend on randomness. The randomness is to increase the difficulty for the Zerk players while simply making things more interesting for other players (not as much repetition). Please see point #2.
What greater reward? The minute there is a literal difference in the quality of rewards…all these nerf zerk tear factories will explode on the forums.
Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to just decide that one group of players should have content made more difficult for them? If the same decision was made…to make content more difficult for nomads…would that be equally acceptable? Would it be acceptable to just decide to make content more difficult for any other stat combination? We all know the answer to that would be a resounding no…it would not be acceptable. By definition, if you are targeting a specific group of players…trying to force them out of their gear choice, then you are attempting to punish them for that gear choice.
If you want to make content more challenging for players with maximum defensive builds…try swapping out some of your safety net gear so that you are actually in danger of getting downed. That’s the same thing zerk would do if they actually wanted more survivability (less challenge).
This has been repeated to the point that it is nauseating to even repeat it again, but here goes. The reason the content is faceroll for zerk…and everyone else, is that the content is 3 years old and has been thoroughly memorized and explained in video and text documentation all over the internet. When this content was launched, it was more difficult. Players did wear more defensive gear. They did so to survive until they began memorizing the mechanics and how to use their available tools to survive without continued investment in survival gear. The same can and likely will be the case with new content…if ANET actually provides this “challenging content” with some new and interesting mechanics. Just like with the old content…players will learn it and learn to clear it with minimal investment in safety net gear again. Players who choose to stay in full healer/max survival mode…will still be able to do so and will still be able to clear content…just like now.
There is no actual lack of gear diversity. I’m pretty sure players are still using the full range of stat combinations. Just because some players prefer not to group with players in certain stat combinations, does not mean that any of those players are not able to make full use of those gear sets or to participate in content successfully. There is bias both ways…that’s human nature…in a game played by humans. There are players who look down on zerk players with the tired mantra of dead players do no dps…just like there are players who look down on max survival players saying live nomads do no dps. Trying to lobby for zerk players to have a difficult time clearing content will have zero effect on gear diversity….it will just make it more tedious to get groups.
The point is that some people WANT to play a dedicated tank or healer role. It’s not being forced, that’s just how they want to play, and if the game is really supposed to let you play however you want then you should be allowed to play those roles IF YOU WANT. I know a lot of people who said “nope” to GW2 just because it wouldn’t really let them play healers.
It does NOT mean that it has to be mandatory to bring a healer or a tank in the future. It could be better in some fights, while for other fights the zerk meta might be better, and other fights might prefer totally new strategies. There’s a lot of things Arenanet can do here.
You do realize, that the moment it becomes necessary or even preferable to have a healer or a tank, then that becomes a mandatory role in groups? That means forced roles…even if not forced by the game itself…but forced by meta. As it is now, there is literally nothing stopping anyone from clearing any content. What exactly is broken about that? What part of that needs fixing? If you want to roll up into any content with 5 nomads…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to roll up into any content with 5 zerks…you can…and you can clear the content. If you want to build your character based on healing….have at it. If someone wants to build their character based on all damage…the same applies…not sure why people have a problem with this fairness? This expectation that a group should be forced to accept your play style or choices is pretty ridiculous. Groups are made of players…not AI, and therefore should be free to make their own decisions on who and what they want to group with. This game is about fun…fun is not being forced to reserve group slots because you need a healer or a tank to survive. By the same token that players did not buy this game because of the lack of forced roles…there are lots of players that bought this game because they were not going to be forced into these same roles. The minute I log in and see that I can’t clear content because I have to wait for a tank or healer to join….or that I cannot get a group slot because they need a tank or a healer instead…that’s pretty much the end of me logging in to this game. I’m pretty sure there is a large population of players that feels the same way. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot, ANET, by trying to cater to players who failed to read the original game description or to players who can’t/refuse to adapt to a new game and its mechanics.
While I’m up for the trinity I don’t want GW2 to break word on its promise of people being forced into roles just to complete content. If I can clear content as a tank , healer then I should do able to do it in a all DPS group to as well.
This^
Stop catering to cry babies over imagined slights ANET. Balance your game on numbers and facts…not forum balancing. Recognize the game dynamics you created (that we purchased) and stop trying to nudge us into a trinity.
What exactly is stopping anyone from playing? By this logic…let zerk play?
Might stacking with blasts ISNT too powerful in long drawn out fights. Phalanx IS too powerful in long drawn out fights.
I’m actually going to reply regarding PS, not so much about might in general.
A number of people have started raising the banner of “PS is too strong” as a trait recently, and it bothers me a bit. From my perspective, PS is very strong, but it inherently guts the damage of the individual to take that trait line for PS to balance that a bit. Additionally, the presence of PS enables other combo fields to be used regularly in meta DPS groups without suffering the problem of combo field selectivity (and thus combo field frustration). Furthermore, PS enables pub players to learn best-practices (maintaining might stacks) and thus become better contributing members both of their current team and of the community in general. There is literally no downside to this in my opinion. Might-stacking by blasts is still crucial to pre-stack before bosses, and might-stacking by PS just allows those high numbers to be sustained throughout a fight. I would literally never recommend to ANet to nerf PS because it has only positive benefits for the game.
Convince me otherwise, please, if the general consensus is that PS is bad for the meta/game or whatever. I’m genuinely curious to hear the other side of this.
Personally I don’t see PS as horrible. What I hate is how mandatory it’s going to be after the LH and general non-staff ele builds nerf, giving you no other option than PS in longer fights. PS will also no longer suffer a personal dmg nerf after the trait changes, meaning you don’t sacrifice a lot for group support anymore.
This is a general problem I see with the new system though. Not necessarily the PS trait.
They could open up the necro/reaper might stacking traits to work for the entire party…instead of just for the necro/reaper. That would make it so that there are more viable options for might generators. This would require them to back off of the no boon sharing for necros/reapers though. They could even fix empowering might for guardians to allow for longer duration of its applied might stacks. If they are really looking for ways to even out party composition…its things like this that will do it. That and allowing access to key party utilities for all classes…such as reflects/projectile destruction.
The real answer is that necromancers/reapers could actually be desirable in small group content. If we had utilities that actually benefitted ourselves and our party like a reflect…that we could actually use regardless of being in DS/RS or not…then we could actually offer something to small group content.
Yes, ANET has proven itself to be all about forum balancing instead of balancing via numbers/testing, but leaving the class half functional isn’t the way to go either.
The whole “problem” boils down to the following question. What exactly is the “zerk problem”? Is it a problem that you can play in berserker gear? Is it a problem that berserker gear exists? Is it a problem that everyone is not forced/coerced to playing in defensive gear? Really, what’s this “zerk problem” that so many people are so focused on solving? Why is it so important to force other players into playing in your preferred gear set? So important that you spend your time cooking up schemes to make it undesirable to play any way but your way. So important that you write up forum posts on ways to “hurt” or “punish” players for wearing berserker gear. So important that you worry about making sure there aren’t a certain number of players in a group wearing berserker gear. Do you spend that much time and effort trying to punish players that wear nomad gear? I’m sorry, but the sense of entitlement exuding from these posts is pretty sad.
I’m just gonna bide my time and wait for the PvE tears to start pouring out when DH guards start getting excluded from small PvE group content. This entire trait line is filled with extraordinarily bad ideas.
1. Pure of Sight – incentive to camp range in instanced PvE regardless of the encounter
2. Heavy Light – auto knock back in PvE
3. Hunter’s Fortification – short radius group buff on a class camping range
4. Focus on condi damage in instanced PvE
5. Zealot’s Aggression – reliance on cripple/knock back for melee weapon synergy
I’m pretty sure, that once the new wears off of this elite spec, there are going to be some bitter tears on these forums regarding anything not open world in PvE. I can’t even imagine much favor in open world for a spec using knock back on a routine basis. People thought that rangers received a lot of hate for PBS…at least they had to actively use that ability to trigger the knock back…Heavy Light is going to trigger that automatically if the DH isn’t far enough away on any given attack.
I’m sure this will all be a completely different story in a different content type, which probably the entire point of this elite spec design. I just think they should have modeled this more like the reaper or chronomancer elite specs where the specializations actually have strong synergy and cross weapon appeal. The other elite specs open up many more build options than DH does because they don’t funnel you into a specific weapon. The reaper can play any weapon type and not be shafted on traits. The reaper has exactly one trait specific to the GS and it is on a major trait..completely avoidable. The chronomancer is pretty much the same, there is nothing that unavoidably makes me want to avoid other trait lines or specific weapons.
I’m pretty sure people who don’t want more instanced content are the same who were saying they wouldn’t notice if their traits would stop functioning. (Actually i think i’ve spotted some of the same names.)
Which makes me wonder if the real reason behind the whole “say no to instanced crap” is that instances show how much of a gap there is between people who know how to do the evil instanced content and those who like to spam 1 in open world.
On the flip side of the coin is the fact that digging up chests in the silverwastes is more rewarding than doing dungeons. Stupid game design.
This ^
What other possible reason could these rabid naysayers to any instanced content have for being so opposed to more game play options? Its not like the inclusion of a few instances is going to remove or even diminish open world zergs anymore than it does now. The only logical reason I can think of is they really don’t like content that shines a light on player skill gaps. For those that try to say that there is no skill involved in attempts and successes in flawless and near flawless instance clears…or even in discovering the most efficient tactics for instance clears, how is there any more or even equivalent skill in 50+ people spamming 1 in an open world nomad zerg?
Instanced content is really the only venue where team work and efficiency is really showcased. I include small scale pvp in this category. Combo fields, weapon selection, builds, etc really matter more in this type of content. Why should’t there be venues in the game where the mechanics and execution are important?
(edited by ODB.6891)
No thanks to instanced stuff.
No thanks to your open world zerg
I’d appreciate either options to toggle butt-capes off for all armor sets or just to have them implement new armor sets that do not have them. Sometimes less is more in regards to aesthetics. I know this probably sets off alarms to the anti-bikiniplate camp, but they need more variety in aesthetics. I’d love to have options for my light armor characters that were not full length ball gowns down to the soles of their feet or pants with a skirt on top.
Balance healing and DS after our mechanics are made to work logically. Mechanics should always take priority, with balance coming in after the mechanics of a profession and build feel good.
This^
I personally think they need to make some radical changes to DS/RS. I think the attrition theme they have for necros is a failed experiment. In a game all about active defenses, trying to fit one attrition based class (square peg) into an active defense game (round hole) just doesn’t work…at least not very well. They need to peel off the baseline survival aspect of DS/RS and put it where it belongs…into utilities, other skills, and traits. That would finally give them the opportunity to allow utilities/all healing while in DS/RS. DS/RS would fall more in line with other class mechanics…it would be less of them trying to insert a pseudo tank into a game with no tanks/healers. The whole concept of blocking all utilities because you use your class mechanic is such a terrible idea that it blows my mind that that got past their quality controls.
(edited by ODB.6891)
I definitely think camping longbow will be a boot worthy offense as much as a staff camping guard, a longbow camping ranger, a rifle camping warrior, a short bow camping thief, or a greatsword camping mesmer in dungeons/fractals. Those weapons definitely have their place in dungeons/fractals for encounters that are better to range/kite, but everyone needs to equip an appropriate weapon for the encounter at hand. If a player is causing the boss to ping pong back and forth between them and the rest of the melee group, that’s a common boot no matter what profession you play. …its just annoying and causes all kinds of problems.
I personally think its a mistake to have a trait like the dragonhunter “pure of sight” that encourages a player to camp range in spite of encounter mechanics. I find it irritating that they put that trait in an unavoidable spot too…as a minor…when it only benefits ranged weapons.
I think the ranged traps + the longbow are a bit counter intuitive to group play though…just like the ranger healing spring. You are either placing the ground targeted buff away from the group or away from yourself by design.
The dragonhunter longbow is definitely a nice addition, but it will just need to be used appropriately and not have people attempt to use it exclusively over all other choices….business as usual really.
It all depends on what they actually listen to from feed back and implement from the feed back. The biggest issues with the reaper, for me at least, are the lack of active defenses and lack of group utility. These two things are key to evening out imbalances that stop necros from equal participation in different game modes. Being locked out of all my utilities while in DS/RS is a huge party foul in my opinion…and apparently in the opinion of a lot of other players. Is it so much to expect something as basic as a projectile reflect on a utility that is begging for it as much as spectral wall is? Party play is cooperative, you depend on group mates to help each other…why would you want someone who can’t contribute to that cooperation? I’d take someone who can help me survive a one-shot or increase group damage output any day versus someone who can’t do either of those things. I’d take someone who can use their entire roster of skills…including party supporting utilities…over someone who can only use half their skill bar at a time. Don’t get me wrong, I love the reaper changes, I’m looking forward to revamps for the core necromancer traits, but I think my final opinion on the necro/reaper will depend on them making this a fully functional profession…versus holding onto theme/flavor restrictions.
I understand the problems behind the issue are real, but the solution is so incredibly simple that i have no real sympathy.
Make your own groups.
That’s it. Start a group, label it “all welcome” and have fun. You cant change necros, and you cant change other people, that just leaves you. stop trying to join groups that don’t want you, and make your own group.
This unfortunately no longer works. I tried making a group for CM with my necro. Watched 5 other groups start and finish forming while I had not got a single member. Eventually gave up and switched to my ele. Had a full group in 15 seconds.
I have to admit I am guilty of this. When I look at a fractal/dungeon group, it is pretty much guaranteed I’m not going to join it or stay in it if I see a necro show up in it. The exception would be if it is a level 10 or below fractal where it can easily be soloed, with no gear equipped. Its just hard to convince yourself to willingly go into a run with a handicap, when you don’t have to. I don’t kick necromancers anymore for being necromancers because it isn’t their fault…I just leave. ANET needs to step up and provide some function instead of this theme/flavor handicap nonsense they have been holding onto regarding necromancers.
I’m excited for the reaper elite specialization. I’m hoping they will add a little more of the mandatory tools in for the base necromancer like a reflect on spectral wall and maybe even an evade on Death’s Charge. They also need to stop disabling our utility bar when we use our class mechanic.
The problem is the dungeons and PvE end game, in general.
Necromancer is unwanted for a reason. Dungeons reward boons and mobility but it also punishes conditions so Necromancer is doubly cursed. Experienced players know this.
1 Necromancer cannot stack Might.
2 Bosses do not have boon hate.
3 Bosses do have condition hate.
4 Necromancer has no stealth or OOC mobility.It is that simple.
What’s sad is that they very easily could stack might with the spite traits…if only they were shared with the party instead of necro only…small tweak…huge perception shift.
I’d also add that active defenses are an issue as well. Mutual exclusion of being able to use active defense utilities or use DS/RS concurrently is a sore spot for me. They need to drop these flavor/theme handicaps and allow the necromancer/reaper to be functional.
A good guild that’s actually laid back and casual and not devoted to max dps speedruns shouldn’t be worried about what classes they take with them… If you’re feeling left out, maybe have a chat to your guild leader about it?
The expectation for necromancers to have to search extra hard to find a group/guild to accept them, in spite of their profession choice, sounds like a problem to me.