Guild Wars 2

Seyiwaji.4082:

.Echo of Memory:
Again, please remove the continious block before it is too late.
I saw it coming…. Some people now complain that it is too strong in Combo with déjà-vu; And yes, they are right.
Now they are talking about reducing the time of the block(sensless). Please, before you change the Name of the skill and/or change something about déjà-vu, just revert it to single block. To have 1,25 sec block or block 1 Attack, won’t make the real difference.

As said in my Previous post. Déjà-vu is there to make up for the weak block.
Chronomancer just don’t need a continious block.

People won’t understand or hate me. But it is a matter of being skilled, to be able to deal with 1 attack block. You don’t need to block everything randomly.
Plus, somewhere i don’t want the Chronomancer to be so easy to play.

Every skill in the entire game can’t be there specifically for PvP and only PvP…especially when raids are a thing now. There is nothing wrong with a couple seconds of continuous block at a time now. There are multiple classes that have continuous blocks…I don’t see all this forum crying about those.

tobascodagama.2961:

I’m with Fay. Raiding requires optimisation and efficiency, which are the absolute enemy of flexibility. Chronomancer’s “alacritybot” build and rotation are not any more set in stone than a Staff Ele’s “dpsbot” build and rotation.

If you want flexibility, look to PvP/WvW where flexibility actually is a virtue (to a certain extent) or look to open world PvE where what you do doesn’t actually matter that much.

Don’t complain about Chronomancer actually giving us a truly unique, effective, synergistic build that requires the coordinated use of utility skills, weapon skills, and our class mechanic. Instead, admit that you just don’t kittening like raids. Nobody is going to crucify you for that opinion, but people WILL be rightly mad if you start agitating to take away the one thing that makes Mesmer playable and desireable in the raid meta.

Me, personally? I don’t kittening like raids. I got the raiding bug out of my system by doing it for two years in another game, and now I’m done. But I’m not gonna be mad that there’s only one viable Chrono raid build, because that’s more than the number of viable Mesmer raid builds, and it’s pretty kittening rare that any class has more than one viable raid build anyway, in any game. At least the “alacritybot” Chronomancer means my fellow Mesmers who like raids have something to do in them, and I’m happy for them to have that.

Maybe I’m just assuming incorrectly that this response is to me, but I’ll bite. You seem to be missing the point of what I said. Which makes your response completely off base. What I said has absolutely nothing to do with removing what a chronomancer has to contribute to raids. You both have your brains stuck in a mutual exclusion loop that you need to wake up from. Just because there is a complaint/concern about having a trait that directly pressures a specific utility type for all 5 utility slots…does not mean that we don’t want the function of that trait to still be present. What it does mean, is that we feel it can be implemented in a way as to not require all 5 utility slots to be filled with that one utility type. So you can stop having a panic attack about losing any alacrity in the process…as that is not what is being asked for. It is entirely possible to increase the base amount of alacrity given on one or two wells baseline, while changing the trait to do something different. That is entirely possible to do without changing the amount of alacrity provided to the group. I don’t think anyone can logically argue that it is good design to have one trait that completely invalidates all other utility options. That is the point here.

You guys are so far in defensive mode that you can’t even see what the real discussion is about. There is no such rule that there can be no flexibility just because it involves a raid…at least not in GW2. Especially considering there have never been raids in GW2 until now…so you are just pulling that out of your butts. I played chronomancer in the beta this past weekend and I’m pretty sure the random group I was with probably had all sorts of assorted builds. Even with that randomness, even with the lack of coordinated communication, even with sub-optimal class composition, even with over half the group having no clue what they were doing, in about 30 minutes of play…we still ended up getting the vale guardian to what I assume was phase three. So no, raids are not that hard.

In short, there is no valid reason why this can’t be improved upon. No one is threatening your ability to apply group alacrity. If anything, making a change like this would make it even easier to apply group alacrity if the group application is condensed to fewer utilities with higher durations. This is not WoW or any of the previous games you raided in…stop treating it like them. I’ll complain anytime I feel like it if I feel I have a valid complaint. You are making an ignorant assumption that I don’t like raids…just because I think one trait is poorly thought out.

This isn’t about dissatisfaction with what the chronomancer is capable of doing. It is about the way that one trait influences potential group pressure to slot all 5 utilities as wells. This is the same issue the former mantras trait had and it was also nerfed. Any trait that invalidates all other utility options is deserving of review.

I think the OP just didn’t expand properly on what he/she meant regarding being an alacrity bot. I think this is just the same thing others are saying about AWTEW and the pressure that directs to have every utility slot filled with one utility type. I don’t think anyone can reasonably have an issue with alacrity + quickness being our contribution to group play.

Some people do need to check their attitudes at the door though. Last time I checked this is forum to express concerns and now is the time to voice those concerns…while they are actively taking feed back and making changes. Whining about other people whining, is still whining.

Walkure.9056:

- Players do not yet know how to counter chrono (like glint/shiro herald; 3 manning on a Herald with infuse light on and then saying it heals for its full hp, how could that be?)

-chrono can chain invulnerability a little too well atm with sword/shield. The downside is that we have to blow all our cooldowns (high risk/reward) But then again: if you do not attack a chrono with a purple bubble you can end that chain, simple as that (counter play) This makes mindlessly spamming necro wells are going to get rubbed in their face, generally, aoe ticking fields.

Let’s all just wait for the dust to settle down

I don’t think any of these things are a problem, because just like you said, they are things with significant counter play. That’s pretty much what PvP is supposed to be about…recognizing and countering your opponent. Its nobody’s fault but their own for attacking a herald with infuse light active. Its the same as continuing to range attack a druid through sublime conversion. The same goes for attacking a chronomancer through echo of memory/deja vu. The same with fast attacking a guardian with retaliation. The same with trying to melee a reaper. All learn to play issues for them.

As far as mesmer/chronomancer main hand sword goes, that weapon pays a significant dps penalty for its defensive nature. Maybe the single lowest dps main hand in the game…even after the 10% auto attack buff…plus you have to be in melee range. I see no issues with combining two very low dps weapons…as chronomancer off hand shield has no real offense either. They have to be very defensive as the trade off for very low offense + high melee support.

Overall, I’m loving the Chronomancer. Its not a damage king and I’m 100% fine with that. It has great utility and team support. There are several things that need to be toned down and/or changed though.

AWTEW – This is a problem. This current iteration just makes a full set of wells mandatory in groups. The alacrity for all wells has to go. Make group alacrity baseline for a couple of the wells…two at the most. I vote well of action for one…as it seems most themed for speed increase. Make this trait do something entirely different…something that won’t make a full set of wells the expectation in groups.

iAvenger – Give this phantasm more mobility…like the warrior shield #4 shield bash mechanic…but with an iSwordsman twist. Let it leap in and back out of melee to perform its attack/group buff/group debuff and survive. Shield #4 should also summon the phantasm on initial block as well. It is way too easy to cancel this block and cancel the phantasm summon as a result. I also think protected phantasms should be baseline…or give this phantasm a block upon initial summon.

Continuum Shift – While I love the concept, this seems doomed to a PvP based nerf. Lesser skilled players are going to continue to try to face roll and get crushed by this…instead of countering it properly by attacking the rift. We all know what happens when they come to the forums en masse to complain…even if the complaint isn’t really valid. I would honestly prefer this to get changed somehow instead of the entire espec getting nerfed to preserve it. Please don’t give it the dhuumfire treatment where the entire profession/espec gets punished for it. This is really a PvP tool anyway…make it less of a nerf target so PvE doesn’t get smashed in the face for it.

On a side note, I think the cool down on time warp is a bit outdated now.

Eponet.4829:

atlrising.5134:

Could ask the Mesmer haters to stay off the Mesmer forums. I’m becoming terrible angry at the Mesmer hate.

I haven’t noticed any mesmer hate. I feel the same way despite my main character being a mesmer. I just don’t want to be pidgeonholed into having to run well builds every single time.

Alacrity is balanced, for the chronomancer, but AWTEW makes giving it to classes that can abuse the buff far too easy and seems as though it’s going to practically force you to run wells every single time or have people complaining, just like playing a warrior without banners, but unlike a warrior who only has to commit 1 or 2 utility slots to banners, a chronomancer will end up running 4-5 wells.

I can see this actually being an issue. I think a solution would be to make AWTEW provide something different yet again….and move the group alacrity onto an innate buff provided by maybe well of action and gravity well. That way there will only be at most two required wells in groups instead of 4-5. That would limit the group alacrity to a couple of wells and the shield. I would definitely not look forward to being pressured to run 5 wells for my utilities.

I must be missing something about this power creep / mesmer too strong spam. Its certianly not about the alacrity, since that only makes a significant difference in sustained combat. It can’t be about damage, as we are still not top tier dps. I can only assume this is about continuum shift since that is the only thing that has really changed about our burst…well that and if people are crazy enough to just stand in wells until they complete? If CS is really the issue here…this sounds like a l2p issue…since all you have to do is kill the rift. They have already nerfed chronophantasma and illusionary reversion…what else are people really complaining about? Its not like any of the new especs are weak. What’s so OP about the chronomancer?

I’m loving my mesmer more than ever now. I’m playing PvE power shatter Chronomancer with Sw/Sh + X right now and its amazing. I finally have desirable group support in the form of alacrity + quickness. I’m not just being brought along for reflects anymore. I’m 100% fine with not having top tier dps at this point because now I can provide top tier support…with mid tier dps. Playing my mesmer is now exciting and active…versus trying to keep three phantasms active at all times to compete. I was skeptical, initially, regarding the new focus on shatters in PvE, but I’m loving it now. The only things missing are a few tweaks to the iAvenger to get it to pop in and out of melee like the iSwordsman and iBerserker…plus whatever the survival increase they are talking about for pets/minions and other AI units. I want to thank RG for his great work and actually addressing our issues. I’d also hope he doesn’t cave into what he already told us was a bad design…making the iAvenger into another range spam phantasm again. It will be much more interesting to have the iAvenger be a functional melee phantasm.

Xyonon.3987:

ANet we ALL here just want to have some sort of range attacking phantasm with an aoe skill. IAvenger, IDisenchanter and IMage all suffer greatly from the (original) bounce mechanic and the desire to be ranged and aoe. There is no better time than now to change those phantasms together. Please make up your mind.

We ALL do not want another range attacking phantasm. I know I don’t. They explained clearly why the ranged attack was changed to melee. What they need is simply a survival increase for the iAvenger…which does not necessarily mean changing it to yet another range attacking phantasm. They can start by treating it similar to the iSwordsman and have it pop in and out of melee to execute its attack and generate the alacrity + slow. The iSwordsman does a great job of this already. They could simply modify its behavior to be like a shield bash charge…like warrior shield 4…only leap back out of melee after executing the attack…again…similar to iSwordsman. They could combine this type of change with whatever they have been alluding to regarding increasing pet/minion/gyro survival improvement. They have enough range phantasms already…at least 4 (iMage, iDuelist, iWarlock, iDisenchanter). Both iSwordsman and iBerserker already have mechanics that get them in and out of melee to execute their melee attacks…they just need to add something similar to the iAvenger. Its past time they improved AI survival anyway…they need to do that regardless since there are AI units that will be melee regardless like ranger/druid pets.

Izanagi.6827:

it will be annoying as hell if we need to keep 2-3 set of gear on us to grind the legendary =/

This ^

The most artificial of barriers they could possibly have come up with…carrying around multiple gear sets. So does that mean there will be mobs/bosses that can’t be damaged by condi, or will only power gear users have to carry around extra gear sets?

The commentary on that video was hilarious lol, but yeah…great work RG. A little sad that it appears reapers/necros won’t be getting instanced PvE love, but they are awesome everywhere else. This is the best shape I have seen this class in since the original launch. Thank you for listening and actually implementing positive changes.

Rakath.4579:

c. the phantasm is terrible. either give it an illusionary shield bash ability in addition to the alacrity/slow…

This^

My only real complaint about the chronomancer is that the iAvenger does not have similar survival behavior to what the iSwordsman has. The above suggestion would be perfect. Give it a shield bash animation…where it leaps in and does a shield bash as its attack…and then back out again…similar again to iSwordsman. This would solve the issue with it camping melee range and getting wrecked by cleave/aoe.

I guess a similar issue would be what is happening to standard clones….with all the cleave and aoe…they are getting owned almost instantly….especially on fights like the wyvern. Hopefully we can get some aoe immunity for pets/illusions/gyros like I saw mentioned on one of these forums.

Blaine.4830:

ODB.6891:

Lets examine the basic reason for forming a party/group. Strength in numbers…essentially being stronger as a group…making each other better. That’s exactly what the necromancer/reaper does not do anywhere near as well as any other profession. I see people listing all the things that other players generally are not looking for teammates to provide…as strengths of the reaper in instanced play…and it baffles me (help ressing, tiny heals instead of spike healing, tanking, self-ish sustain). What pve instanced parties are generally looking for are things that make the group and the individuals stronger at the same time. They generally want things that are going to keep them from getting downed in the first place. They generally want things that are going to kill the enemies faster. They are generally looking for teammates that will provide things they don’t already have…or in a more efficient manner than they can already. Unfortunately necromancers/reapers are still lacking in that…apparently by design. I will say that the reaper is absolutely amazing in open world though. It was far and away the most fun and easiest profession to play in pure open world PvE…pretty much where teammates and group contribution does not matter.

So your saying the other classes are weak and need other classes to stay alive? About right.

Necros doen’t need the rest of the group to stay alive. I usually find myself in pugs scraping the noobs off the floor after they die.

Ignore the META Elite nonsense. Once the OP’ed Frost Bow gets nerfed to the ground and the NOOB STACKING of might goes away. The games going to change. At least I hope it is.

Remember a dead player puts out ZERO DPS. Necros don’t die very easy. Funny because in 90% of my pugs.. my NECRO doesn’t get out DPS’ed very often. Are they usually high dps.. NO but the META perfect class only puts out perfect dps if the moon aligns and all the other classes are played perfectly aligned with META. That doesn’t happen often. Play what you like. Ignore the Elite META bullies and just dungeon with a group of 4 other necros… :P

Its strange watching someone react to things that never happened. I say this since no one had anything to say about a meta in this conversation until your verbal barrage here. The OP asked a question and answers were provided. Apparently that means you attack as a result? If you have personal issues, try to contain them please. The answers in this thread were logical answers. The only response in this thread that looks like it came from a bi-polar person is the one with caps lock turrets syndrome and grade school name calling. I’m sorry you don’t like anyone to talk about the way necros/reapers are designed, but that does not change the way they are designed…just because you don’t want to hear it. They are the least contributors to PvE instanced groups in regards to the things that people would generally group for (boons, buffs, utilities). That’s not something an evil elitist bully made up to exclude you with. That’s pretty much a design intent from ANET…they have said as much multiple times. They are showing you that with their continuation of that intent with the new espec. That does not mean that they are not PvE viable, and I did not say they weren’t. This has nothing to do with any elitists or any meta. This is a logical conclusion from design of the game and the content type the OP asked about. Boons do not look to be a thing they are phasing out anytime soon. Boons and utilities are the primary mechanisms by which party members increase each other’s potential. I’ll just leave it at that as far as letting people come to a conclusion as to the ranking of professions in that context. It has nothing to do with any profession being weak. If the strongest person in the world was grouped with an equally or comparatively strong partner…clearly that only improves their potential.

On a side note, I find it hilarious how the most negative and aggressive posts are always from the people calling everyone else names like elitists and bullies.

Lets examine the basic reason for forming a party/group. Strength in numbers…essentially being stronger as a group…making each other better. That’s exactly what the necromancer/reaper does not do anywhere near as well as any other profession. I see people listing all the things that other players generally are not looking for teammates to provide…as strengths of the reaper in instanced play…and it baffles me (help ressing, tiny heals instead of spike healing, tanking, self-ish sustain). What pve instanced parties are generally looking for are things that make the group and the individuals stronger at the same time. They generally want things that are going to keep them from getting downed in the first place. They generally want things that are going to kill the enemies faster. They are generally looking for teammates that will provide things they don’t already have…or in a more efficient manner than they can already. Unfortunately necromancers/reapers are still lacking in that…apparently by design. I will say that the reaper is absolutely amazing in open world though. It was far and away the most fun and easiest profession to play in pure open world PvE…pretty much where teammates and group contribution does not matter.

don’t feed them @soulstitchmmo

This 5 player buff/boon cap needs to go away in raids. It was fine as long as the maximum group size was 5 players….or a huge zerg, but this is just too restrictive and brings nothing but negatives into a 10 player raid. I can’t help but agree with Zudet and Rising about this. I was looking at this as a problem as soon as they started talking about 10 player groups. All this 5 player cap can do is cause more people to get left out of any group that even attempts to optimize. At least with expanding the cap to 10 players, you can squeeze in a few more professions by not having to double up on every profession.

I see people coming up with all of these one off scenarios trying to invalidate the OP, but none of them really seem to accomplish that. There’s really not a scenario that the OP’s (subjectively optimal) group is not able to handle and handle well. All of those professions can range or melee. Boon application can be done on the move or stationary…the herald is exceptional at that with glint. Burst is always going to be necessary, and this group brings great sustained dps as well…even condi capability. This group pretty much covers everything. I do think some of the components can be swapped, but that is really the point of the OP….if you open up the buff/boon cap….then it becomes less rigid as far as limiting the number of different professions likely to be brought into an optimal composition.

I don’t see a single negative for expanding the buff/boon cap to 10 in raids…unless the complaint is coming from players wanting to be that doubled up profession? If that’s the case…that’s just selfish. Start/join a second raid in that case…you are already one of the preferred professions anyway.

Harper.4173:

The main thing we should take away from this is that people with different mindsets and methods should not be forced together and that people should respect other people’s desire to play the game a certain way.

You can’t force them to play the way you want- the most you can do is not play with them – ultimately we should all just find people that want to play our way.

This is the core of the entire argument and I just can’t understand why people refuse to accept this. This is literally the entire reason why there has always been all the forum tears about the " zerk meta". This is literally the entire rationale behind ANET’s recent determination to kill berserker geared players…trying to capitulate to the massive forum cries of players who can’t accept this. Trying to force players with opposite mindsets to play together. I believe its the reason they abandoned dungeons…not wanting to deal with these forum cries regarding reworking dungeons for this same capitulation. I’m honestly surprised they are implementing raids (challenging group content) in light of this. I guess the 2/3 trinity is their caveat in that respect though…another obvious attempt to force these opposite mindsets together…however much of a bad idea that will be. ANET just needs to stop fighting against human nature here. There is a polarization that they are not going to overcome here….those that want to be “safe” and those that want to play on the edge.

Challenging group content…

The expectation is that it will be a challenge to complete…meaning not face roll easy where you can /dance and still complete it wearing a tutu.

Zenith.7301:

Levetty.1279:

So Blurred Frenzy is now a dps loss?

I also have no idea why they think Condi Mesmer is so strong when its one of the worst condi builds.

They were so stingy with the autoattack buffs, a 10% buff is marginal when mesmer mainhand sword is so far behind, and the fact that pistol whip is blurred frenzy on steroids, and Unrelenting Assault does roughly three times as much damage as blurred frenzy, teleports you, and stacks might is a joke.

Necro also got a pitiful 10% on axe auto, when the weapon is so behind the other classes, their scepter changes amount to less ramp up but the same mediocre condition dps due to nerfs to lingering curse that still make engineers and rangers and guardians far better condition classes.

Meanwhile thieves got buffs on the line of 25%+. A total joke, considering most thief weapons vastly outdamage mesmer and necromancer autoattacks and other skills. But I fear this is all done with pvp balancing in mind where they don’t want to buff mesmer or necro.

And rangers, the class with some of the worst autoattacks, including all their power weapons besides longbow, got no buffs to the autoattacks.

If they think raids will release with anywhere close to fair class representation at this level of power imbalance between classes, they got a surprise coming to them.

I agree 100% about how stingy they were with the buffs, considering how far behind on damage mesmer melee is…compared with the alternative choices to bring to raids/groups. Not only were they unspeakably stingy, they apparently only applied the damage increase to our auto attack and not to blurred frenzy…which may as well be a part of our auto attack.

I’m assuming they are still wanting to delude themselves into believing that phantasms are going to be a significant part of our dps, but they are forgetting or ignoring several key things.

1. The nerfs to chronophantasma and illusionary reversion.
2. The unavoidable damage they have been telling us will be present in the new raids.
3. The already fragile nature of illusions…and what will happen to them with this unavoidable damage in raids

I’m guessing they are thinking we will be shattering all of our illusions much more frequently since they nerfed pure phantasm builds while strengthening shatter builds. That would probably work out if we are going to be able to actually keep both clones and phantasms alive long enough for them get a few attacks in and then shatter them. Not sure how they expect that to work, especially since they are so focused on esports like you said and are refusing to go as far as they need to fix us because of that.

I’d also like to chime in about my continued irritation with time warp. This is more of a fairness comparision with time warp versus feel my wrath. This is a pretty 1:1 comparison since both are elites and both are primarily about quickness. The only differences really are duration, cool downs, and secondary effects. The duration difference is fine…10 sec tw versus 5 sec fmw…especially considering the fury duration of fmw is actually 10 seconds….same as tw duration. Secondary effects are fine….slow for tw and fury for fmw. The problem is the cool down difference. FMW with 45 second base/36 second traited cd now…versus TW with static 180 second cd. The only real differences are 5 seconds of quickness….for 4 times the cool down! You can do FMW 4 times in the span that you can do TW. That is not balanced. At most, TW should be a 90 second cool down. Twice the cool down of untraited FMW since the quickness duration is double. I said this a long time ago when they first nerfed TW by 50% effectiveness but left the duration the same. I guess they may be factoring in the fact that TW has an ethereal combo field, but that’s not really a strength to put out a combo field that other players don’t want…that covers up combo fields they do want.

Lahmia.2193:

Zerker Reaper LF 1 guard tank, 6 zerker dps, 2 cleric nomads/cleric ventari revs

I can’t see bringing a reaper in a raid, especially with the requirement to receive external heals. I’d also swap out the ventari revs for druids due to tablet versus simple heals without the added complication of moving the tablet.

The real decision for me would be which dps to bring. That would really depend on how they decide to handle party boons and group heals in raids. If they are still capped at 5 targets or not. If that cap still exists in raids, then you get duplication of desired classes. If not, you get to include almost everyone in a raid.

When I think about an ideal raid composition…assuming the 5 player boon/heal cap…I think quickness/alacrity chronomancer, boon extending herald, psea berserker, dps feel my wrath/reflect guardian/ele, nomad druid. Of course that gets way more flexible if they change the boon/heal cap in raids. Obviously some of those spots are flexible.

phys.7689:

as i have shown, there are not enough people who like wearing beanies to support the desire for said content. That is the main problem, and has always been the problem with requiring them.

Why does everyone have to suffer for beenie wearers? Its already been documented, its a known outcome.

in the old system you could take a beenie wearer if you wanted to
in the new system you can not, not take a beenie wearer, how is that a better situation?

If they wanted healers to be more viable, they merely had to increase the skill cap.
Then people would take healers based on their skill levels.

sure, the super elite wouldnt need healers, but the average team? they might want them.

Lol, I’m killing myself laughing at the beenie wearer example. Its hilarious, but so accurate and appropriate. Such an artificially created and arbitrarily imposed handicap.

Back on track though, I think this guy is not going to ever acknowledge reason. He’s pretty much just happy to say anything if it means he can spite zerk players….even if it means spiting himself and anyone else as a result. The argument, logic, and historical facts are clear here.

Bearhugger.4326:

You call me wrong in “so many ways” then you proceed with a suggestion to officially kill other players’ favored playstyle in order to preserve your own.

That assumption is making you look bad. No where did I say what this one gear set would be. For all you know, it was a blended balance of the existing stat combinations….which is the only thing that would be fair. You’re just seeing what you want to see by assuming I’m trying preserve any play style of my own.

Bearhugger.4326:

The solution to Arenanet’s problems is to promote build diversity, not to discourage it. God forbid some people like to play something that’s not fully glass-cannon, and they have the right to ask for viability in group content. “Play your way” works in both directions.

Yes it does work in both directions….which is something all you rabid zerk haters conveniently forget unless it is turned against you. Eliminating huge stat differences between players would do exactly that…promote diversity…because you would not have any gear stats pushing you into a playstyle. Your playstyle would be whatever you choose in traits + whatever weapon/utilities you choose to use….essentially the same thing that will happen with legendary armor, since you will be able to change stats out of combat. The legendary option does require you to go an extra step, but still roughly accomplishes the same thing.

Bearhugger.4326:

How did they succeed with their vision when the vast majority of their players did not accept it after 3 years? How long do you want them to give the players to adapt before scrapping the idea? 10 years?

Your assumption here is that just because the majority did not accept or adapt, means that what they didn’t accept to or adapt was wrong. There was a time when people wouldn’t accept that the world was round instead of flat…that didn’t make those people right or even smart. Its entirely possible to have an overwhelming number of ignorant people.

Bearhugger.4326:

They stuck to their vision for 3 years and it has turned their group PvE into a wasteland. It’s time to try something else. Tank/DPS/healer or something else, it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not the status quo.

I’m going to have to disagree with you there. What’s turned their PvE into a wasteland is stale content. Lack of updates and rewards. Extreme rng on the existing rewards. Who’s going to keep doing the same content for years and not get tired of it? Especially when you’ve squeezed all the rng rewards out of it you want.

Bearhugger.4326:

Feel free to blame WoW and its players for every GW2 design decision you dislike, but the fact is that WoW has a healthy and challenging group PvE experience while this game does not, and for 3 years, players have been asking Arenanet to do something about it.

Yes, for years, the same players who fail to adapt or even attempt to adapt to a new game model….have been asking for ANET to clone WoW. If WoW was so healthy, there wouldn’t be so many players in GW2. I know I left all blizzard games because I was sick of the exact thing you guys are harassing ANET into implementing here…the trinity. Well, that and various other shady and poorly thought out decisions.

Bearhugger.4326:

Have you done the content to say they’re mandatory? Unless I missed something, all they said was that they were killing the 10x berserker groups, and good riddance because that’s just stupid.

I don’t have the do the content to know something they pretty much came out and said in a public interview. They explicitly said that avoidance and mitigation were not going to cut it…that’s what the zerker meta is all about btw. Their forum specialists and they have been saying that there will be unavoidable damage that we will need to be healed through. How does that not equate to mandatory healers?

Bearhugger.4326:

And even if a healer is required, if there isn’t a single person in your group that is willing to put a few group heals on their bar to help the group progress then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you need to stop hiring cowboys in your guild. The only problem that could happen is if revenant and druid are the only viable healer classes, because the ranger class does not typically attract very “healy” players, and the Ventari stance looks very boring. (That tablet…) If elementalists, guardians, engineers, and maybe shout warriors are viable group healers then it shouldn’t be a problem to have 1 or 2 players heal.

Also, welcome to DPS/Control/Support, where healing is a form of support, and tanking is a form of control. If you can’t find a healer then maybe other forms of support will work. We don’t know yet.

The issue you guys are wanting to gloss over is that being pressed into healing…when you don’t necessarily want to be a healer…is not a positive thing. I’m speaking from the perspective of a player who has played hybrid classes in many games. I’m pretty sure there are other veteran players from other games who have done the same and know full well what happens when that need for the trinity style healer arises and you happen to be on the class that technically can do it…and has the tools to do it better than other classes in the group. Slap on that healing gear/build and take it for the team. Stare at health bars and take the blame when anyone dies. Take the blame when the raid fails. Not everyone enjoys healing, especially not being pressed into it involuntarily. Yes, you may be fortunate enough that there is someone in the group that actually wants to heal…but then you may not be. Its not the end of the world to be the heal-kitten, but it goes against their former mantra….phiw. This is ironic when phiw is the justification for this change…that will be going directly against itself. The previous model at least let you play whatever build you wanted, whenever you wanted, and you could clear any content while doing that. You just came out doing it better when you did it with like minded players.

As far as support goes….yes healing is a form of support. There is a difference in healing being a part of support, to it being a mandatory requirement for success….and success only being achievable with a high threshold of this healing. We had support before (boons, utilities, heals, debuffs). Now they are implementing an artificial requirement to not be able to complete the content without an excess of one component of that support. So no, this is not a welcome to support…as we already had that.

Harper.4173:

MirrorOfNature.4279:

I hate to burst your bubble, kid, but META is not the only way to do the content in this game, and it will not be the only way to do content in HOT.

I didn’t say it will be the only way to do content – I said it’s the only way to do content that has value to me and other meta players – you can do content any way you want but personally I have a choice whether or not to play with someone based on his way of playing the game.
Also – is “kid” supposed to be an insult? Get over yourself.

MirrorOfNature.4279:

eople complain right and left, that there’s so little diversity in builds without realising the reason for this is that they ALL run a meta build. There’s so much build variaty in this game, which still does a decent job, but the majority of people (especially the kinds like you) don’t even bother look at them, nevermind try any of them, because you see “They’are NOT META, you see, so you can’t do any content if you dont run META, and if you don’t run meta i dont want you in my pt”.

I’ve never complained about the lack of build diversity because I do not care about build diversity. What I care about is getting rewards fast and easy.

MirrorOfNature.4279:

I call complete BS on that one. Have you EVER, you personally, tried running different build, then the one set as META? I highly doubt so, but in the same time you’re too fast to reject ALL and ANY other builds out there. Have you ever heard of hybrid build? No? The druid have a potencial to become very powerful hybrid build with high healing output and surviability while putting out a decent damage – not a high damage, but decent enough, so it may not be called “healbot”, and it may not be needed for the sole purpose of his healing alone.

Why would I try something when there’s already something else that does the job better? What would the purpose of that be?
I did try a lot of builds at the start of the game before we had a meta – and ultimately understand why having a meta is better – it provides the optimal tools for your problems and necessities.

MirrorOfNature.4279:

ood luck playing your meta build, I will keep staying clean of your type of groups. Just don’t come around here and complain that there’s not any variaty in builds. There is many. The fact that you’re too ignorant and blind to see them, doesn’t mean they’re not there.

Once again – you may go over my posting history (all 62 pages of it) and conclude that I haven’t complained about a lack of build diversity. I have never cared for such a concept nor will I probably ever care about it.

MirrorOfNature.4279:

ce I joined this game I never played with specific meta build. Oh surprise, surprise.
I didn’t have any trouble finding groups to do any content – dungeons/fractals, you name it. How did I do this? Did I pulled some mysterious magic out of my sleeve or something? No. Nothing like this This simply shows, from my experience and and my point of view, that there are ways to run specific content, even if you don’t have the “holly meta build”.

Great – enjoy the game the way you like it – I have no problems with you as long as we never actually end up in the same party together.

MirrorOfNature.4279:

Also what i find very funny is, how many already decided what the raids will look like, how they will run and what they will need a month before they are even released and anyone actually TRY to run them. Some people should really stop expressing their assumptions and expectations as solid facts. That’s just another complete BS.

It doesn’t matter what they look like -what matters is that they will be hard – and experiences teach us this : the harder the content the stricter the meta and the more elitist the people doing said content are.

If raids are hard my expectations will be correct -only very good players with very strict party comps will succeed consistently.

If raids are easy then Anet has failed once again to provide actual difficult content and we’ll have Dungeons “metazerk” 2.0 in a short time.

nicely handled without stooping to the level of that post full of insults and attacks lol

PopeUrban.2578:

ODB, keep reading posts past that one, I addressed this point specifically a few posts up

sorry about that.

Windsagio.1340:

Plenty of players do use those other gears and enjoy them. It’s not for me or you or OBD or my friend Seth to tell them not to do it or that the gear and style they like is a waste.

Even if it’s not optimal it allows some fun contrast and differences and styles, and I’m all for that (as we all should be).

Saying they’re ‘wasted’ because they’re not optimal isn’t really right, imo. People use them. -especially as you note across the different primary and secondary game modes.

The player action isn’t so onesided outside of these forum discussions and a particular faction in dungeon LFGs

Don’t get me wrong, I think it was definitely a mistake for them to include gear that makes players think tanking and healing were supposed to be viable options in PvE, but I know the ship has sailed on this issue…especially with the announcement of an expansion supporting dedicated healing in PvE less than a month away. I’m just pointing out the real issue that caused all of this back peddling on the original game design advertisement. I’m definitely irritated on the back peddling part, but if they really want to go the route of semi trinity…GW2 style….then I’m warming up to it…so long as they provide the proper tools. If I’m going to play trinity style game play, I want meters, inspect, and role checks. Fractals are one thing….where you encounter so many terrible parties and you can just bail out and find a new group within minutes. Raiding, I imagine, will be a different story altogether. The logistics of getting enough people together…for what I assume are going to be much longer and much more demanding encounters…are not something I would want to fail from unprepared or unqualified raid members. A common thing I see people say on these forums about how they just lie to get into fractal groups, is something I think raiding should have a way of dealing with.

PopeUrban.2578:

Canakun.8031:

Rashagar.8349:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I really enjoy it when people talk about “ending the meta”. But as stated, once one meta dies, another is born. The anti-meta becomes the meta. It’s Metaception!

Well the only reason it will never go away is because there will always be people who believe it’s the only way to play. If people stopped caring about it it would never come back.

I don’t believe it will ever go away, but that’s only because the people who push it will never stop pushing.

A meta isn’t about being the “only way to play,” it’s about being the most optimal, most efficient way to play. Some people like efficiency, especially when they’re grinding content multiple times.

This is true. The meta is only a problem when a meta comp is, as it is now, not just more efficient, but so much more efficient that it can complete a run in literally half the time based solely on build rather than player skill

Take a look back at GW1, take something like the SS necro meta. It was more efficient, but in the end, if you took another well designed group that wasn’t running it, your clear times were at least 90% as efficient. Might stacking zerk meta is able to literally remove 40% of the party and have the same clear times as a balanced non-meta comp.

Nobody wants content to be faceroll, but what people do want is to bring in characters they actually like to play, make some adjustments to traits, weapons, and armor, and still feel like they’re being decently efficient.

You keep making these abolute statements that are just not really true. The there is no build that can make you clear content faster solely based on build. There are plenty of players in full zerk setup that fail miserably, repeatedly…and as a result…they take much longer than a non zerk setup. I pug literally 100% of the time and I see this all the time. Players who are trying to play zerk and use no supportive utilities…or run the most selfish things possible. The first choke point they reach…the group implodes.

Yes, a given group can complete the content without multiple teammates contributing…that is pretty much carrying dead weight. What’s the alternative? Auto fail because you have fails in your group? That would pretty much mean the end of carrying fails. A swift boot would ensue if that were to be the new standard.

PopeUrban.2578:

Gav.1425:

Why do you think that a random team should be comparable to a team specifically designed for content?

It’s the stated balance goal of the game. Literally “every class can fill any role”

It’s not a matter of random teams. It’s a matter of taking a random assortment of classes and ensuring that if each player in the comp makes build adjustments so that it results in a balanced comp of heavy DPS, support builds, and damage soak builds that the content is actually completable within a reasonable time frame compared to all other group compositions with the intended mix of roles.

As of right now, there is one, and only one role that has any value in PvE, and that role is damage. You can run that role on any class. The problem is that by function of class design one specific comp is not just more efficient, but so much more efficient that it makes it a waste of time to run anything else

Do you really think arenanet intended that all content be completable by nothing but damage builds with a bare minimum of support? It is obvious they view this as a problem, and it’s not the fault of the players, but the fault of how classes, skills, and content is designed.

all damage builds should be a no-go as much as running all bunker builds or all support builds as if your content doesn’t require people to bring a balanced party with a mix of roles, why would you bother designing those roles, or providing gear for those roles?

You should have to make sure you have a good group comp for content. As of right now there are plenty of good comps, but they’re all overshadowed by a single group comp that is 20 times more efficient

That’s a problem, and one Anet seems to intend to fix. When your design goal is that class roles are flexible, and players should have the ability to take any selection of classes and choose builds that make it work, it breaks the entire system when one specific option is not just slightly better (there will always be a comp that is more efficient than others) but so much better that it makes all other options effectively pointless in comparison

Zerk is just as bad as if the meta was “all healers” or “all tanks” or “All engineers” etc. etc.

Healthy balance means not just giving people the option of running multiple roles, but ensuring that in order to complete content those roles are required, otherwise you end up in the situation we are in right now. There is one role, everybody does it, and it severely hampers build options and trivializes content. That’s just bad for the health of the game.

I think you two are getting crossed up in word choices. I think you are really talking about the same thing and are probably largely in agreement with each other. When i read the word “comparable” in the quoted text…I’m thinking he was specifically talking about performance level and efficiency, not that the random group couldn’t complete the content with relative ease. I think he was just saying there should be a difference in performance of a hand picked group…tailor made to the situations…versus random pugs trying to coordinate.

There is not only one build that can complete content. That was why ANET’s design was a success. All builds are able to complete content. That being said, it is more difficult for some builds due to them being allowed to refuse key aspects in their build…in attempts to go for maximum survival or role play aspects. A full nomad group can clear content…it just takes much longer. There is also no such thing as an all damage or an all bunker build. The professions are designed well enough where there are a minimum of support and control aspects built into the base professions. Any typical build will have to come across and accept a few of these traits and weapon skills no matter what. Damage builds in particular, need these more than survival builds.

The real problem came in with allowing these alternate gear sets to begin with in PvE upon launch of the game. This game players the impression that they would be able to be tanks or healers. Once they made that mistake, it has been a huge snowball ever since. They didn’t want to bite the bullet and pull them from PvE early on…so now we are dealing with the inevitable consequences. Without the stat combination differences, everything could have been all about traits and utilities….especially since they pulled the stats off of the trait lines…for very similar reasons. In the absence of huge stat combination inequities, all three roles would have truly been viable simultaneously on every profession and balance would have been much simpler.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Cyninja.2954:

And all the TC is saying is, that while 1 problem is addressed, a new even bigger one is created. The bottleneck that is tanks and healers is no mythical pony. It’s something that is very real and has been a problem in the past in other games.

Well, the OP says a lot more than that, but everything else you say here is true. My main issue isn’t that the new “tank/heal/3dps” meta will be better. I think it won’t. My issue is that the line “there will always be a meta” is a caricature used to insult and dismiss anyone who disagrees with the zerker meta. There’s a certain point in the OP where I just stopped reading and started skimming, and it was right here:

Canakun.8031:

The reason there are some detractors from this meta (which is fine, the game very clearly allows for Play How I Want groups to clear content) is because not everyone can grasp the pre-buffing, the rotations, the correct time to dodge, etc. Whether this is due to latency, age, ability or otherwise is none of my business.

I’ve been around the sun a couple dozen times, and I’ve seen this kind of superiority fueled analytic BS before. Every time somebody goes on a stint explaining why other people disagree with their one true way I die a little inside, for my faith in the human race gets knocked another notch. Take this quote and remove the kid gloves, and you get this message:

“Other people (the PHIW) don’t want to play the way the rest of us play because they’re not competent enough to do it right. For whatever reason. I don’t care why.”

Which is ridiculous. It should be self evident that preference in play and competence in play are two unrelated qualities. I shouldn’t have to explain that one doesn’t lead to the other.

Don’t let the passive wording fool you. It is just fancy dressing on top of an elitist diatribe.

I’m sorry, but that was a complete internalization of your own issues…brought to life in electronic print. He said nothing that hasn’t been openly admitted by many phiw players on these same forums. He did not target anyone specifically…especially not you. The fact that there will always be a meta….is just that a fact. A meta is just a consensus, constructed by players, of what the best/most efficient way to do a certain type of content is. How can that not always exist? Saying that it will always exist has no bias or intent…just stating a fact. It can’t be helped that those who have been so vehement against the “zerker meta” will feel personally targeted by any statements alluding to the fact that all of their complaints have lead to something that will be arguably worse and not even accomplish what they wanted.

There have been many instances on these forums where people have outright admitted that they are against twitch game play (the essence of the zerker meta) because they are unable to meet the reactionary requirements or just don’t want to meet those requirements. Him saying that, again, is not targeting anyone to insult them…its just acknowledging real issues. Its not like he says anything negative about them. He even goes along to say its none of his business why they can’t or don’t want to meet these type of requirements. What more can you ask from the guy, to not be confrontational or elitist?

The closest thing I see to what you are describing in his OP is that he says that dealing damage and not taking damage are the ways to play the game. He could have possibly worded it slightly different by one single word….by including the word “optimal”. That is a far stretch from him being elitist or exhibiting any type of superiority. Honestly your extreme reaction to, what amounts to an omission of a single adjective, is telling. You go on to twist and reword what he said into what you want to think he said. I think the reaction to the OP was a bit over the top is all.

Altair.8402:

Yeah, I don’t understand the mindset of people who think “oh, now the zerk meta is dead, I can join any group and run whatever I want!”

The same people who were kicking people for not running zerkers will now kick the people not running whatever the new meta is.

Exactly, so you just still have the exact same problem. All these resources spent only to shift the meta to slight one group vs another. You still have the net result of unhappy players on one camp or another. You still have players not able to truly play how they want. You still have approximately the same level of complaints and unhappiness. Now you will have players unhappy about trinity style game play…and legitimately so since the game was advertised as the opposite upon purchase. Now you will have players unhappy they are dependent on some other player to keep them alive…versus being able to manage that by themselves. Now you are going to have some rangers upset that they are being expected to heal…when maybe they don’t enjoy being a healer. These are likely the same rangers who screamed for a change and didn’t know what they were getting themselves into. Now, not only can they not use their beloved bear-bow builds, but they are going to have to heal instead. At least before, you were already outside of the meta…so people had minimal expectations of you to begin with. Now, you are the meta, but its for something you probably never wanted to do in the first place…and you have mandatory expectations to live up to this meta.

Canakun.8031:

I want to preface this by stating that every game, and every game type within that game, will always have a most viable way of doing things. There will always be a best way to do damage, a best way to survive, and a most efficent way to do both simultaneously.

For most MMO’s this is a set amount of players dealing damage, with 1 or 2 or sometimes 3 players actively holding threat, and a couple of backliners keeping every body alive, either through mitigation or straight healing. This works well for other games, and it’s a type of play that GW2 sought to remove itself from.

This isn’t to say that the Druid will completely destroy the game or anything, however I have noticed people on the forums, and ofcourse developers themselves, say things that completely… baffle me.

The current state of GW2’s meta is that the best way to kill enemies is to kill them, and the best way to not take damage is to not take damage. That’s how you play the game, that’s how the game teaches you how to play the game, and a meta that focuses on a maximised offence is what was born from it. I see big names like Nike and Brazil mention it all the time that the faster you take down an enemy the less time that enemy has to potentially deal damage to you.

The reason there are some detractors from this meta (which is fine, the game very clearly allows for Play How I Want groups to clear content) is because not everyone can grasp the pre-buffing, the rotations, the correct time to dodge, etc. Whether this is due to latency, age, ability or otherwise is none of my business.

What we’ve heard today is that the Devs are supporting a shift away from the damage/dodging meta that gets content cleared quickly. This is likely because of the constant complains from people that their particular class or their particular build isn’t welcome in a meta environment.

What nobody seems to be accounting for is that by creating content that needs a healer to heal, the developers are casuing the following (assuming raid content is exactly as they want it to be).

- A new meta that is much stricter than the previous meta. It will no longer be a “LF1M zerk” situtation but a “LF1M druid CLERICS OR KICK” situation.
- For this reason, the people who complained about the zerk meta will eventually complain about the druid meta. This is just my subjective anecdotal experience, but the majority of PHIW complainers are ranger mains who like their bear and their bow a little too much. Guys, you’re going to be pigeon holed so much more now that you’re the only class that can fulfill the role as dedicated healer. You have EVEN LESS BUILD DIVERSITY now.

- 2 years down the line, there will be a STRICTER set of viable ways to clear content. There will be more people complaining.

- This MAY REQUIRE THE NEED FOR AN INSPECT OPTION. This is a really important one in my opinion. Now that specific sets of gear are needed for specific builds on specific classes, there will actually be a need for an inspect feature. Raid leaders who are making pug groups will need a solid way of ensuring that the players who’ve signed up for a certain role are actually fulfilling that role. Because there will still be PHIW people detracting from the new meta (did i mention the new meta will be stricter than the zerk meta?) This will also warrant a gear lock-in system for raids.

I thought I’d be able to word this a lot more eloquently than I did but this is about all I have to say.
To summarise.
- New meta will be stricter.
- Will be complained about just as much, if not more than zerk meta 2 years down the line.
- Creates the need for additional features such as inspection and gear locking.

There it is guys. You ended the super strict super elitist zerk meta, and in doing so created what could potentially be twice as strict and twice as elitist. Just because someone kicked you for running clerics.

That was as eloquent as it needed to be. I might end up buying HoT just to witness the in game whining and group kicking first hand…just so I say some “I told you so’s” lol.

Leo G.4501:

Gav.1425:

Torolan.5816:

That´s what I love most about this forum, people always assume the worst to happen and are never satisfied with a viable solution that is not the most efficient.

How hard can it be to tell on TS that the ranger should not use the 4 on longbow, put his tanky bear pet away for some other, totally irrelevant pet and put some healing gear on?^^

It’s hard enough to get a pug ranger to run spotter, let alone swap his entire build, gear, and playstyle for you.

Pushing trinity forces an even more strict meta.

Shall I use the advice spouted to those dirty PUG play-how-you-want players?

Try joining a guild for your group content ^^

How does that statement even apply to this situation? What makes you think players in a guild are any better than random pugs? How does being in a guild change either the need for, effectiveness of, or desirability of a particular profession/specialiation?

ArchonWing.9480:

Kodiak.3281:

People who are cheering the demise of the meta will find out in a month or two it will just be replaced with a different one. They nerf direct damage? It shifts to Condis. They introduce unavoidable damage? It shifts to classes that can best handle that damage while keeping up DPS or classes that can allow others to recover (such as 1 healer with 4 DPS being more DPS than 5 people who bring DPS and healing).

Blaming the developers and the content they design is pretty misleading. There’s (currently) no PvE worth being competitive about in GW2 yet it still exists and people still argue about best this or meta that.

It’s really a catch-22 for them because if they make it too hard players will create meta builds that are “required” to do the content at all and if they make it easy enough for any build to do it then people going to use maximum DPS to power through it fast as they can which people still then “require.” Metas are a creation of the player base.

I agree with this on a fundamental level because there is inherently a better way to get through something than another.

If they didn’t want zerker gear to be dominant in content, they could introduce content where killing the enemy is not a priority, say you have to escape from a collapsing dungeon, and the boss is merely trying to take you down with it so your main goal is to find the escape route or make bosses which aren’t able to damaged directly but you have to set off traps or something. I’m not sure how fun that would be though.

If the way to make zerker gear not the best is to artificially increase the difficulty by making damage unavoidable, or worse, forcing damage on the player of which they require healing or a certain stat threshold to survive it, then I’dd rather not have that at all.

Yes^ I can’t help but agree with every word you just said.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Beldin.5498:

At least i already have heavy ascended berserker, soldier, celestial and sinister armor.

And for roaming with my guardian in silverwastes i prefer already mostly celestial
since it is a good mix of direct and condi damage with also more survivalibity.

However all those dungeon speedrunners will ofc still also need their zerker
stuff even if they maybe really need something else in HoT content.

And also if zerker die now constantly in HoT its only the fault of the healers

na it won’t be the healers fault because the system is still based around dodging/ damage reduction through debuffs ect if a zerker dies he didn’t do enough to survive untill the healing effects kick in or he took too much damage to keep his HP sustained .

its not a holy trinity where the party only lives if the healer is good , the whole party must be good and Balanced for Survival , the druid will provide some Health sustain but it won’t keep you or them zerkers alive if they play badly or nor bring enough defences. its not as black or white as you think it is.

Without meters/metrics/inspect….it will be extremely ambiguous as to who’s fault it was. ANET has clearly stated that avoidance will not be enough to survive. That includes utility usage, skill usage, and dodging. That means healing will have to cover the rest. Guess where the finger is inevitably going to get pointed by default. Its not like healer blame is a new concept to mmos.

VaLee.5102:

@OP You mean something like this?
“LFM Exp. Soldier ONLY! READ DESC.”

ANet is trying to correct something that is fundamentally flawed.
You cannot have variety in gear sets or builds if all the professions use the same basic character stats, e.g. there’s no intellect for casters only or attack power for melees, or if there’s no kind of replacement for the holy trinity with dedicated support,heal,dps,etc.

No matter what they do, everyone will have the same gear with this system no matter if it’s called zerk or poney, because everyone is specializing on clearing the content as fast as possible.

This^

How can they be so far off from understanding the game they design….

Kite.2510:

Cyninja.2954:

Kite.2510:

NOTHING in this game should be designed for Zerker.
Players will always find a way to cheese some Zerkers in once they learn the in’s and outs of the content anyway, but at least that way other builds would be more viable.

Nothing in this game IS designed for zerker.

The content is designed to be doable with the current game mechanics in mind. The fact that people are capable to use said mechanics and play with maximum damage gear is a result of refinement.

The fact that Zerker was the meta for so long on everything means that everything was, intentionally or unintentionally, designed around the Zerker.
Look no further than the “Hard” Superbosses like the Tequatle patch, where besides the technical stuff, all other conditions for failing was “not doing enough damage”.

• Enemies not hitting hard or often enough for players to invest on toughness.
• Healing being Useless!
• Having defensive/supportive attributes not scale defensive/supportive skills (unlike power and conditions that synergies with most offensive skills), thus working better on heavy armor professions who rely less on avoiding damage.
• Also ANY event that appeared with a Strict Timer is a Zerker event!

1. The entire point of any encounter in this game is to kill the enemy…so of course “not doing enough damage” is an issue. The enemies aren’t there for us to hug them. Even so, that has nothing to do with zerkers or any “zerker meta”. It has everything to do with players who refuse to stop trying to play this game as if it is a trinity mmo. Your role playing as a cleric is not the way this game was designed. It was designed for you to help with the killing. That does not mean you need to have zerk gear on, but it does mean you need to invest in some damage dealing and contribute to the goal of the game…killing the enemies.

2. The enemies do hit hard enough and often enough to invest in toughness…if you can’t be bothered to use any of your damage avoidance abilities. ANET designed the game in a fashion that provided you two options. Avoid damage or face tank damage. Just because you choose to face tank, doesn’t mean that everyone else should have to…that’s why they provided the options.

3. I don’t know what the kitten you are talking about with healing being useless. My healing skills work just fine. When I activate them, they heal me. I’ll go out on a limb here and assume you are mad about people like me not needing people like you to heal me? I’m sorry, but that’s how they designed the game intentionally. They designed the game where players were no longer dependent on other players to be functional. They designed it so that things did not automatically fail because of one person (tank or healer). They designed things such that you could complete content with anyone in your party (phiw). Its funny and sad that this was the phiw mantra early on in this game, but you guys changed your tune when it became obvious that meant you would be doing that without zerk players in your groups. The reality is that things are working as intended. Healing does support….it just is not currently mandatory. Runs can be easier with some healing…a few less downed players as a result. Runs can also be easier if players make less mistakes…meaning a few less downed players as a result. That’s what I call balanced options.

4. Why would defensive options need to scale when they are already at 100% by default? That has always been a disingenuous argument specifically wanting to force zerk players dependence on non zerk players. The only reason for wanting active defenses to not work properly for zerk players is to force the presence of non zerk players to use those utilities for them. Also, every player should be avoiding damage…not doing so is the epitome of face rolling.

5. Every event with a strict timer is a contribution measurement event. They were sending a clear message that maybe the least damaging of builds wasn’t the best or most polite option in a mass group environment…especially when such a significant portion of the other players there were doing the same thing. It is trivial to meet the timer requirement when at least contributing a minimum of damage. Its not like crit and ferocity are not disabled on fights like that. Power and condi were the only offensive stats that affect those major world bosses. Nomad wasn’t the best option perhaps? Its not like you guys haven’t been screaming for the exact opposite to happen for 3 years now….wanting events that just auto kill anything not wearing survival stats. Hypocrite much? I also find it funny that you guys spent 3 years screaming and crying on the forums for the trinity…or at least the GW2 version of it…but as soon as one of us says something about not liking the direction ANET is caving into…we are asked why we don’t just not buy the game or go to a different game. The hypocrisy is real.

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Obviously, raids will be a challenging, more pre made oriented (guild?) content than actual dungeons. They said pugs would have a hard time clearing these. I guess these groups will need DPS, healing specs, boons sharing specs, probably cc’ers/interrupt, or even stealth. Who knows? We know nothing about it. But maybe that aegis, or daze, or blind will be more important than healing during certain phases. So what? Groups will need to bring aegis spammers? A lot of classes can’t use aegis on demand. Same for blind, or daze, or stealth. So why not healing?
And if we need a rez banner for a specific mechanic? Warrior mendatory?
AoE moa? Engi mendatory?
AoE stealth? Mesmer/thief mendatory?

We should wait before complaining. Really.

Apples and oranges for a significant part of your post. Swapping a utility skill is an entirely different beast than an entire specialization focused on healing. Multiple classes can rez with a single utility skill swap. It is highly unlikely they will design an encounter specifically around one utility of one specific class…so AoE moa is not a relevant argument. A stun, repeated daze, immobilize would generally accomplish the same things as an AoE moa. There are going to be at least 3 professions that can grant AoE stealth. Stealth has never been a mandatory utility in any instance/encounter…it has been a convenience at most.

Mirta.5029:

Kormeg.2469:

And it’s for this reason why I don’t understand why you think having no roles was a major selling point of GW2. Sure it might be for some ppl, but far from the only one, or the most significant I’d say.

I highlighted the most important part. It was for me. It really was.

In every single other MMO I don’t play what I want, I play what is needed. I play what will be useful for my team. Except in this one. Because I could be anything, I chose to be whatever I wanted. Heck I even climbed the fractal ladder up until 50 on my necro, and people don’t really like necros normally. But necros, just like anyone else, could deal damage and it was up to player to execute the mechanics properly, so you didn’t lose too much from taking one into your group.

So you’re right. It’s not a major selling point for all. But it is for some. So I don’t approve 180 your design choice 3 years into the game.

I feel the same way^

I suggested this in a different form a long time ago and they ignored it then, like they are likely to ignore it now. I was saying that they should just have one gear set, pretty much a GW2 uniform for PvE. Something they can actually balance around and not have to go to the extremes in mob/encounter design…trying to kill full nomads and trying to make mobs last longer/be a challenge for zerk. I like your suggestion of moving stats onto base stats entirely. I would suggest they do this for all stats. Essentially make gear cosmetic only. It kind of takes the fun and accomplishment out of gearing your character, but at least it solves the fundamental problem they are having with balance.

Shoe.5821:

cant the druid just swap to sword or longbow

celestial druid can be a thing like celestial ele is

just because you are druid spec doesnt mean you can’t do damage

Imagine a profession that can pump out that much healing…also being able to pump out any level of damage that actually matters. You think that would not be headed for an immediate nerf? If the ability to heal a raid for this allegedly intense amount of unavoidable damage is any level of challenge…then one can only assume the best healing gear will be required…meaning not celestial, but nomad or clerics. If that’s the case, druid damage will be abysmal no matter what weapon you swap to. If that’s the case, you better be on your “A” game with the healing (meaning in your actual top notch healing gear) or the boot is coming. Raids are what this is all about, and they are supposed to be “challenging group content”. Apparently ANET decided to make the entire challenge about brute force healing…

Bearhugger.4326:

Test.8734:

Paulash.5814:

My only response to this is that many players have level 80 Rangers on their account.

How many players who currently have a level 80 ranger on their account have created that character to play as a dedicated healer?

Zero.

What makes you think that people who made a character to NOT play as a dedicated healer will be willing to just turn around and play as a dedicated healer?

If anything, the situation will likely become worse than it’s right now for rangers. Instead of being not very sought but being begrudgingly accepted in groups (unlike necromancers, who are simply not accepted), rangers will only be accepted if they agree to use a healing build, and will be kicked otherwise.

Yeah. This is a huge problem I’m foreseeing.

The population that wants to play healers has probably settled on Guardian or Elementalist, not Ranger. If Arenanet wanted to allow dedicated healers to exist (as they seem to be doing) they should have focused on making Guardian and Elementalist very potent healers before giving top heals to a class that nobody ever rolled to heal.

The same goes with tanks. Let Warrior and Guardian tanks be a thing before Engineers, Thieves or Necromancer, since that’s where you’ll find the players who are most likely to want that kind of role.

In the mean time, Revenant are the new guys in a GW2 that allows tanks and healers so they get the choice to be excellent tanks and excellent healers.

This is going to be a problem.

Even if they did somehow swap which professions are forced into the heal-kitten role…I didn’t roll my guardian to be a heal-kitten either. I felt pretty safe picking any profession I wanted to, gasp, play it how I wanted! Changing which profession to force into a healing role isn’t a fix for this either. This is just a bad move on ANET’s part. Yet another poorly thought out change…one that they have been hiding and denying up until this point where they think they have enough pre-order sales to minimize the back lash.

Torolan.5816:

ODB.6891:

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

But isn´t a raid the epitome of greatness and adaptability anyway, so one of the team is of course the adaptable one and the healer for the evening? If a healer is really going to be mandatory, we are then back at where people that ask for gear from others are now in the position to play something they are either ill suited for or dislike.

Sounds fair to me as being on the other side of that stuff for years, but probably not to you.^^

The logic here is so twisted and convoluted that I am having trouble following it. How is the one person in the group that is only good for one thing (healing)…supposed to be the adaptable one. Are you saying they are adaptable because they have a high healing specialization and the other raid members do not? That may be the case with the ventari, but not with the druid. No one really wants a ranger in a group now, and they certainly won’t when druid becomes available. That leaves you no adaptation….just a mandatory expectation. As far as the rest of the group not being adaptable….they are currently (with the exception of necromancers) and have always been adaptable. That’s what the damage/support/control foundation of the game was previously built upon. The majority of the professions could do all three of these things….just now it likely won’t be enough because of the ramped up healing requirement they are putting into raids to force healers on us. Now we apparently are going to have to take probably two dedicated healers to each raid. If you think the damage dealing players are going to be the only ones expected to ping gear with this new setup….you are in for a rude awakening. If a ranger/druid walks in with anything but full nomad…I’ll leave the result to your imagination. Does that sound fair to you?

dsslive.8473:

Mirta.5029:

Nausicca.6038:

Mirta.5029:

You’re getting the developer to literally go back on what they said years ago and you’re welcoming it.

Maybe in pve, but we’re using a kind of trinity in wvw roaming everyday and it works pretty well. These specs have been there since release. There’s no lie here, no turning back.
We already have pure DPS and bunker specs, so why not healing?

I don’t have a problem with a viable healing build existing, I have a problem with them saying that you literally won’t clear the raid without said healers. I also have a problem of heal specs being limited to only certain professions.

Actually quite a number of profession can be that healer, from druid to ventari rev to eles/engis/mesmers, i used to run a healing necro build, not sure if that’s still possible (was almsot 2 years ago so lots changed) not to forget guard ofc. Not sure about warriors really and ofc thiefs have very limited healing (regen on steath, boons through stealing, shadowrefuge) So i don’t think that finding a “healer” is going to be specified to one class only.

The thing is, all anet is saying is that you have to think about your build instead of everyone goign full damage with nothing else, but instead some people go damage some go hybrid dps/supp or full supp.

After all, gw2 was always meant to have a support/control/damage trinity that all classes would be able to fill, it was always supposed to be that you need a combo of that, but that all classes would be able to bring that to the table, as such you arent stuck in x profession because you want y playstyle.

Come on now. You can clearly see, that as of right now, there are only two professions that have the kind of healing throughput they are talking about….ventari and druid. The elementalist may come close with blasting water fields, but not with the continuous stream of super high healing the ventari and especially druid now have. They literally have every ability as a healing ability with high numbers now. Nothing currently in the game matches that. Certainly not a banner heal warrior or a mantra heal mesmer. Even a full nomad guardian won’t match that without some serious changes to the base profession. So yeah, if they don’t want specific professions forced into healing roles every time they step into a raid, they are going to have to make some serious changes to all the other professions. Now heal me druid!

Harper.4173:

Gav.1425:

Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.

We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.

Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.

Sadly tanking and healing are going to be a part because some players were upset with the skill difference between themselves and top-tier players who could apparently do content “too easily”.
Also because some other players are upset with people not playing the game the way they think it should be played.

Harper for president!

Bearhugger.4326:

ODB.6891:

As far as the OP’s statement goes….“we” said we didn’t want the trinity by our original purchase of GW2….as that was one of the cornerstones of the game…clearly documented by the three roles being listed as damage, support, and control….not damage, tanking, healing. Just because some people couldn’t be bothered to read the game description, or because ANET is back peddling on the product they sold us, does not make that any less of a valid issue.

At launch, I think everyone was open-minded and willing to give a shot to this new type of party mechanics, but you have to be blind to not see how hard it failed. DPS/Control/Support never happened, the reality was DPS/DPS/DPS. That design led the competitive PvE to a dead-end, and a very shallow one at that.

I respect companies that innovate, but something’s only innovation when it’s at least as good as what was there before, and GW2’s party mechanics clearly didn’t improve on the classic trinity of tank/DPS/healer.

I respect Arenanet if they have the guts to throw that design away and replace it with something that is perhaps less innovative but a lot more fun, compelling, strategic and inclusive for the majority of its player base.

That said, I think they’re just trying to make a place for players who like healers and tanks. I don’t think they’re forcing those roles on us. I think they’re just trying to make them playable and useful in groups. ie: You can go without a tank or a healer, but if you use those roles, they won’t be a waste of a group spot.

This is wrong in so many ways. Their design succeeded, but they made the mistake of allowing gear stat combinations in PvE that were superfluous. They left clerics, nomad, cavalier, rampager, etc gear sets available for PvE players to choose from, when there was not a need for them. There should have been a single gear set for PvE. That way players would not have chosen safety net gear to begin with and would not be looking at the need to handhold these players now to make them feel wanted or needed. They did not want to just correct this mistake after the fact by removing the unnecessary gear stat combinations from PvE, so now they are trying to find ways to force relevance of those stat combinations now. Had they not made this mistake to begin with, they could have balanced encounters properly around this base level of stats. They would not be trying to find ways to make players in zerk gear die without the assistance of dedicated healers. They would not be fighting with the condi cap and struggling with balancing condi versus melee damage as much. They would not be struggling with tuning bosses and mobs to hit hard enough to kill players in full nomad…at the expense of everyone else.

They did succeed in implementing their trinity of damage/support/control, but players stuck in the traditional trinity mind set still cannot adapt to a new paradigm. The new paradigm did not have those three elements as separate players….it is for each player to do all three of those things at once. We still have so many players struggling to understand that they are supposed to being doing damage, using support abilities and traits, and using control abilities and traits ….all at the same time. ANET seems to have given up on educating these players and decided to revert back to dedicated roles so these players will stop complaining. Hence we have our two new dedicated healers…ventari and druid.

It is a matter of opinion and personal preference as to whether ANET’s damage/support/control was an improvement over the traditional trinity’s tank/healer/dps. I don’t think one is an improvement over the other…they are just alternatives. I personally enjoyed the alternative, but it looks like that alternative is about to end because ANET could not stick to their vision. Instead they are letting the unwashed masses cries overwhelm them into reverting back to WoW.

The real problem here, is that ANET is not just making these dedicated healers useful, they are making them mandatory to success in raids. This violates their entire phiw policy. Success in a raid will apparently require these healers….you will have to bring one…whether you want to or not…if you plan on completing the content.

KryTiKaL.3125:

Lets get something straight here.

Anet was never against the trinity, what they were against was what the basic idea of the trinity has been for a long time. Where a specific class was shoehorned into a specific role. Anet did not want that, it did not want one class to only be viable in one role, they wanted each class to be able to accomplish the soft trinity (damage, control, support) in their own ways.

Sadly things did not go how they initially wanted them to and things turned into the zerker meta which is as unhealthy as unhealthy gets for GW2. PvE content, even with healers and “tanks” will not just be standing around face tanking, they have already shown even with temporary content, even with Living World content, that those boss fights involve movement, getting around and avoiding. They have applied those characteristics to enemies in HoT. Many people have -seen- it in the Beta Weekend Events.

The current zerker meta is not skill, its just sitting in a corner, stacked up, mashing buttons. At least PvP has variety, has goal purposes for different stat setups. PvE does too, Anet is just now trying to get people to utilize them because they have been there the entire time, people are just not touching them due to what the content has brought so they are trying to fix that.

They aren’t back peddling, they are just trying to fix what needs to be fixed so that their PvE experience can be far, far more enjoyable and challenging.

Or would you all rather think there is some sort of big huge conspiracy and be all paranoid? Because that is unhealthy too.

There’s nothing to get straight…except your misconceptions maybe. There is no conspiracy or paranoia…everything is out in the open now. Full blown dedicated healers are being implemented. Content is being implemented that will require these full blown dedicated healers to be completed. There are only a few classes that have this level of healing throughput…and all of the professions have been revealed at this point. What do you think will be expected of a ranger in a raid environment now? Druid or gtfo! I mean someone will have to fulfill this healing requirement right? Will it be professions that don’t have this dedicated strong healer specialization…or ones that do? That sounds like shoe horning to me. No conspiracy about that at all…no paranoia about that at all. That’s just logic and the process of elimination.

A huge reason this all has come to pass is because of a misconception, so many have, of what support is. I would even go as far as to say that it may not just be a misconception, but a difference of opinion on what constitutes support. Some people seem to think that support means healing. Others, like myself, think support is more than just healing. Support involves preventing damage, buffing allies, debuffing enemies, controlling territory/environments, and healing. Apparently, the camp that thinks healing = the only support is in the development seat at the moment.

There’s also the oversimplification of what the trinity involves. The trinity was not always about face tanking and standing in one place. There were many trinity fights that involved movement and various other mechanics. I’m sure the GW2 version of the trinity will be the same…at least I hope so…otherwise this was all a huge waste of time and resources. I’m thinking the GW2 version is probably not going to be exactly a trinity…as they have yet to introduce a true aggro control mechanic besides the current taunt in HoT. Healing also seems to be aoe in nature…and not able to be focused on one player. That seems to leave out the tank role, as there can be no tanking without aggro control. That leaves only two parts of the trinity for GW2, so I guess you can’t exactly call it the trinity.

People seem to have it in their heads that there will not always be a meta. The term meta in this game simply refers to the “accepted best” way of doing things. There will always be a best or optimal way…it would require perfect balance and encounter design otherwise… and we all know they aren’t going to pull that off. The “zerker meta” is just the care bear phrase of choice to rant about and blame all their woes on, as it has been a long time since this “zerker meta” was even a thing to commonly encounter. I know I pug high level fractals all the time…I literally never look for a guild group or even a preformed group…and it is very rare for groups to even ask for zerk, meta, or even mention any real specific requirements….much less for a gear ping. High level fractals are pretty much the only place where this zerker meta could exist in the current game…and even then…it is virtually non existent as far as any level of enforcement. I can definitely understand fears of this meta resurfacing in new content like raids, which I assume all this resurgence of zerk hate is about. All I can say to that is congratulations…you have managed to pressure ANET into removing phiw in favor of forced healing roles now. You have managed to pressure them into incorporating the exact opposite of what you were really asking for…the freedom to play however you want, without anyone trying to tell you differently. You had that freedom, but you just couldn’t leave well enough alone…now you are going to have raid leaders telling you to fulfill a dedicated healer role…since it will now be mandatory for success.

All these players spouting this anti zerk rhetoric always come back to “stacking in a corner mashing buttons”. If you actually knew anything about this “zerk meta”, then you would know that has not been the actual meta for quite some time on most encounters. That was just old strategy that out of date pugs were still holding onto instead of getting with the times. Its like when old people try to catch onto young people’s trends…and they are about 10 years behind on what the trend actually is. Yes, stacking in a corner still works best for some things….you think that will magically stop working because of dedicated healers? There will undoubtedly still be situations where it is best to line of sight mobs. That has been that way in innumerable mmos over the years…doubtful that mechanic is simply going to vanish completely. Undoubtedly there are going to be more and more situations where that will not be optimal…just like now. One thing people fail to recognize is that even the new aoe heals…are still dependent on players being grouped to receive their benefits. Boons are still going to require proximity to the boon giver to be acquired. The same with condi cleanses. Its time to just stop it with the anti stacking cries and just recognize that is an intended game mechanic…not some evil invention of players in zerk gear. Its time to recognize that sometimes standing at max range isn’t supposed to be either the best or an acceptable choice.

As far as what constitutes skill goes, what difference is there in skill by spamming healing spells versus spamming attacks? The only skill involved in PvE at all comes from the following:
1. The ability to recognize mob tells/cues and react.
2. The ability to determine and use the appropriate ability/skill in reaction to enemies

I fail to see how gear choice or stacking or not stacking…has any bearing on either of these two things. Honestly, this new dedicated healer situation will just dumb things down even further…this only leads to increased attempts to face tank …with the assumption that you can ignore said “skill” requirement and just get healed through stuff. I may seriously just buy HoT so I can be there the first time when someone types out “heal me druid!” I so remember those days from WoW and cannot wait to see the forum cries of being pressured to be a healer when you don’t want to be.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Ariete.6509:

Control, damage, SUPPORT
/endthread

wel lrpoblematic thing is that this new “support” subclass in way of "supporting stuff has:
90% – heals
10% condi removals

kitten me If there are not quite a few not support focused builds on current base classes that have a way more variety of supporting abilities

[any guardian has already more variety no matter if he wants it or not, and pretty much any damage-support hybrid builds are giving out more support in more ways than heal spam and rare few condi removals….]

so if now AN is calling a specs that is farting heals removing some condis on rare ocasions and call it “heavy suport” the concerns of OP are totally justified

especially when in the same show they announce that they will bring, now officially undodge’able stuff on the table (to get rid of zerker mete – btw all daredevils out ther says thank you on that specific point because evades are primary and only way of defense of said specialisation but we are on ranger now sooooo :P)

I was refering to the moment when they said incoming stuff that players will not be able to shrug off “by simply evading it”

truth is that in current form druid IS a dedicated healer

and at some point 3 years ago they promised no dedicated healers…..

Thank you^

As far as the OP’s statement goes….“we” said we didn’t want the trinity by our original purchase of GW2….as that was one of the cornerstones of the game…clearly documented by the three roles being listed as damage, support, and control….not damage, tanking, healing. Just because some people couldn’t be bothered to read the game description, or because ANET is back peddling on the product they sold us, does not make that any less of a valid issue.

Silverkey.2078:

Why do people often assume that being tanky or having a healer means face-tanking. The content is meant to be very difficult. So you will have to pay attention to the enemy, dodge and use all your active defenses intelligently like before AND still need the extra healing/tankiness to survive. So essentially, you make sure to avoid the biggest chunk of damage, and the support profession makes sure you can survive the small chunks you can’t avoid.

Also, they don’t force you to play a healer or be tanky if you don’t want to. You’re free to play whichever role you want in the raid. But if you go DPS, someone will have to be more supporty.

So clearly this is saying that someone will be forced to heal…whether they want to or not. That someone will inevitably be the profession that has the highest healing throughput and effectiveness at healing. I so don’t miss the days of WoW where my feral druid and enhancement shaman always got drafted into healing duty.

Manu.6078:

Traditional trinity can’t work with the current UI and the current system of targeting and aggro, we’ll probably get something original , we can only wait and see.

I’m just waiting for meters, role checks, and gear inspect. Those are the necessary tools to implement a trinity with forced roles such as dedicated healers.

Bhawb.7408:

Tank isn’t part of GW2’s soft trinity. It is damage, control, support. We could potentially fill damage/control positions heavily depending on the base Necromancer update we’re about to see, and the type of content there is. Most likely though Necro won’t be wanted for group content but instead for solo content inside raids because we can fill all 3 roles at once in a single build, but not in a way that benefits groups.

Dedicated healing wasn’t a part of the GW2 soft trinity either, but apparently it will be now…unless that guy has no oversight and was somehow allowed to implement this dedicated healer all on his own and hold a press conference about it. If they are going far enough to cave into the trinity with a dedicated healer….I can’t see dedicated tanks being far behind. After all, they have already added taunt to a degree.

I’m pretty disgusted with this whole back peddling on the trinity. I’m just glad I didn’t pre-purchase at this point. They were acting way too shady with the silence, things they were sneaking in in advance (nomad gear), and the last minute hold out of the last couple of classes. Now I see why they were holding out so long with the druid. Trying to wait until they got enough sales in before coming out with the true introduction of the trinity.

I would still be relatively okay with the trinity as long as they also allow damage/performance meters and inspect options. If they are insistent on forcing the trinity on us, then they need to provide all the trinity options. The absence of meters and inspect were fine as long as there was no true dependence on other players to even be able to stay alive. They are now saying that it will not be possible to stay alive via avoidance…dodging specifically. That means full reliance on healing throughput. If that’s the case…we need to have a way to ensure the healers have what it takes to keep us alive…which means meters and inspect. We also need role checks in the LFG tool with the trinity being forced on us.

All this being said, where does the necromancer/reaper actually fit into this? Our damage numbers are sub-par. Our group healing is sub-par. Our support options are non-existent. We aren’t tank material as we cannot be healed by these dedicated healers when using our only defense mechanism. Our control options don’t work on bosses.

It burns me even looking at that video with the druid dev smiling about introducing the trinity. Its no wonder the ranger class has been in its abysmal state all this time with someone with that mentality behind its development…wishing for the trinity the whole time. Development in this game is so short sighted and stubborn. They can’t even stick to their own development model or admit when they are abandoning it. Why would they implement a new model in a piecemeal fashion….without the tools to support that new model? Its bad business to misrepresent your product until after selling it.