Guild Wars 2

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think this is a good idea … you want full maps for the duration of the meta. Unless the daily is “Complete the meta event”, it will be problematic.

And what would prevent those people from participating in the meta? It’s not like doing dailies takes a lot of time.

That’s exactly my point … they will do only what they need to complete the daily, then bail out. Do you think that’s good for a map trying to complete the meta? I don’t think it is.

Sure there are already people in the map not doing meta … with dailies, you will have even more.

And you’ll also have people coming into the jungle who would not have otherwise, discovering the metas and staying to help, especially if the dailies include event completers as central does.

That makes no sense … so you’re tell me that someone has bought HoT and NOT went into the new zones to experience the content without having a daily there … but will do so if a HoT Daily is created … Um, No.

That still doesn’t address the concern I’ve raised. Unless the daily is “complete the meta” even more people will come into the maps to only complete their daily and leave, which makes it even hard to complete the meta in those maps than it is now.

Is it inconceivable that players might buy HOT for gliding, elite specs, legendary collections and whatever else and put off visiting the jungle itself because it’s scary? And that given enough incentive they may be swayed to try it? I don’t like PvP but the PvP dailies do incentivise me to try it now and then. I find DS tedious but having a daily related to it (e.g. “open X noxious pods” or “complete 1 DS”) would encourage me to enter and stay for it. Isn’t the entire point of the dailies to make people do things they wouldn’t otherwise do?

The point is, you argued that some proportion of players will act in a certain way that will be disadvantageous for the meta. I argued that some proportion of players will act in a way that is advantageous to the meta. Both of these will happen, but neither of us knows what number of people will go which way and whether the ultimate outcome is good or bad for the meta. And if we’re honestly supposed to play as we like, some of us would like HOT dailies.

No, the point is … the last thing we need is a mechanic that doesn’t encourage players in the map to not participate and finish the meta to completion. That includes dailies. It’s irrelevant if it makes more people purchase HoT or go into HoT maps if the end result is a HARDER time to complete the meta.

Let me present another way to look at it: the maps are already full of vistas, poi’s, hero points and various containers to be opened, achievements to be found, flax farming, etc. There is plenty to draw people away from the metas. You could argue that you don’t need another thing to take players away from the meta – but that’s built on the assumption that the dailies have to compete with the meta. They don’t. I gave examples above of some dailies that would actually encourage people to join the meta, just as Caledon forest event dailies encourage players to do Jungle Wurm or the daily FE encourages players to do ..the ..daily FE. HOT dailies do not have to inherently exclude content you like. We can all win.

You have completely overlooked the fact that a map only supports a certain number of players.

Not at all. If we have dailies that involve the meta (e.g. activate 2 pylons, daily octovine, etc) then players who can’t get into a map doing the meta will try to find another or even start one.

That’s possibly the worst the situation we can have … players complete random events in a meta, then bail when dailies are done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think this is a good idea … you want full maps for the duration of the meta. Unless the daily is “Complete the meta event”, it will be problematic.

And what would prevent those people from participating in the meta? It’s not like doing dailies takes a lot of time.

That’s exactly my point … they will do only what they need to complete the daily, then bail out. Do you think that’s good for a map trying to complete the meta? I don’t think it is.

Sure there are already people in the map not doing meta … with dailies, you will have even more.

And you’ll also have people coming into the jungle who would not have otherwise, discovering the metas and staying to help, especially if the dailies include event completers as central does.

That makes no sense … so you’re tell me that someone has bought HoT and NOT went into the new zones to experience the content without having a daily there … but will do so if a HoT Daily is created … Um, No.

That still doesn’t address the concern I’ve raised. Unless the daily is “complete the meta” even more people will come into the maps to only complete their daily and leave, which makes it even hard to complete the meta in those maps than it is now.

Is it inconceivable that players might buy HOT for gliding, elite specs, legendary collections and whatever else and put off visiting the jungle itself because it’s scary? And that given enough incentive they may be swayed to try it? I don’t like PvP but the PvP dailies do incentivise me to try it now and then. I find DS tedious but having a daily related to it (e.g. “open X noxious pods” or “complete 1 DS”) would encourage me to enter and stay for it. Isn’t the entire point of the dailies to make people do things they wouldn’t otherwise do?

The point is, you argued that some proportion of players will act in a certain way that will be disadvantageous for the meta. I argued that some proportion of players will act in a way that is advantageous to the meta. Both of these will happen, but neither of us knows what number of people will go which way and whether the ultimate outcome is good or bad for the meta. And if we’re honestly supposed to play as we like, some of us would like HOT dailies.

No, the point is … the last thing we need is a mechanic that doesn’t encourage players in the map to not participate and finish the meta to completion. That includes dailies. It’s irrelevant if it makes more people purchase HoT or go into HoT maps if the end result is a HARDER time to complete the meta.

Let me present another way to look at it: the maps are already full of vistas, poi’s, hero points and various containers to be opened, achievements to be found, flax farming, etc. There is plenty to draw people away from the metas. You could argue that you don’t need another thing to take players away from the meta – but that’s built on the assumption that the dailies have to compete with the meta. They don’t. I gave examples above of some dailies that would actually encourage people to join the meta, just as Caledon forest event dailies encourage players to do Jungle Wurm or the daily FE encourages players to do ..the ..daily FE. HOT dailies do not have to inherently exclude content you like. We can all win.

You have completely overlooked the fact that a map only supports a certain number of players.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think this is a good idea … you want full maps for the duration of the meta. Unless the daily is “Complete the meta event”, it will be problematic.

And what would prevent those people from participating in the meta? It’s not like doing dailies takes a lot of time.

That’s exactly my point … they will do only what they need to complete the daily, then bail out. Do you think that’s good for a map trying to complete the meta? I don’t think it is.

Sure there are already people in the map not doing meta … with dailies, you will have even more.

And you’ll also have people coming into the jungle who would not have otherwise, discovering the metas and staying to help, especially if the dailies include event completers as central does.

That makes no sense … so you’re tell me that someone has bought HoT and NOT went into the new zones to experience the content without having a daily there … but will do so if a HoT Daily is created … Um, No.

That still doesn’t address the concern I’ve raised. Unless the daily is “complete the meta” even more people will come into the maps to only complete their daily and leave, which makes it even hard to complete the meta in those maps than it is now.

Is it inconceivable that players might buy HOT for gliding, elite specs, legendary collections and whatever else and put off visiting the jungle itself because it’s scary? And that given enough incentive they may be swayed to try it? I don’t like PvP but the PvP dailies do incentivise me to try it now and then. I find DS tedious but having a daily related to it (e.g. “open X noxious pods” or “complete 1 DS”) would encourage me to enter and stay for it. Isn’t the entire point of the dailies to make people do things they wouldn’t otherwise do?

The point is, you argued that some proportion of players will act in a certain way that will be disadvantageous for the meta. I argued that some proportion of players will act in a way that is advantageous to the meta. Both of these will happen, but neither of us knows what number of people will go which way and whether the ultimate outcome is good or bad for the meta. And if we’re honestly supposed to play as we like, some of us would like HOT dailies.

No, the point is … the last thing we need is a mechanic that doesn’t encourage players in the map to not participate and finish the meta to completion. That includes dailies. It’s irrelevant if it makes more people purchase HoT or go into HoT maps if the end result is a HARDER time to complete the meta.

While it’s got alot going for it on Solo PVE, camping FT isn’t the most awe inspiring weapon.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think this is a good idea … you want full maps for the duration of the meta. Unless the daily is “Complete the meta event”, it will be problematic.

And what would prevent those people from participating in the meta? It’s not like doing dailies takes a lot of time.

That’s exactly my point … they will do only what they need to complete the daily, then bail out. Do you think that’s good for a map trying to complete the meta? I don’t think it is.

Sure there are already people in the map not doing meta … with dailies, you will have even more.

And you’ll also have people coming into the jungle who would not have otherwise, discovering the metas and staying to help, especially if the dailies include event completers as central does.

That makes no sense … so you’re tell me that someone has bought HoT and NOT went into the new zones to experience the content without having a daily there … but will do so if a HoT Daily is created … Um, No.

That still doesn’t address the concern I’ve raised. Unless the daily is “complete the meta” even more people will come into the maps to only complete their daily and leave, which makes it even hard to complete the meta in those maps than it is now.

That’s fair. I mean, if you intend to use the item, it gets consumed and you don’t get gold for it, so it makes sense to not count is as profit. I’m careful about what I sell and when, exactly for that reason. OW PVE would not be good for me if I wasn’t.

I would say you should not undervalue your time by doing that. Just because you don’t consider mats or whatever you sell on the TP to be part of your gold intake doesn’t mean it’s not. Everything I farm is tracked, I know exactly how much I make, though I am lax for actual gold drops from trash mobs; I’m not that much of a MacoSado.

Why not flip? The honest answer is 2 parts: 1) More risk than I’m willing to take on to make gold and 2) It’s the most simple matter to determine the value of my ROI in time ingame without spreadsheets, etc …

I don’t see how it doesn’t mean that. The mats from doing OW content have a value … just like the value of the mats you get from doing dungeons, etc… Do you not consider the gold you earn from selling dungeon loot/mats profiting from doing them? If you do, then how do you not consider the gold you earn from selling OW loot/mats profiting from OW?

I don’t really see any reason to discuss it further; apparently I’m overthinking OW PVE with my optimized builds and playing the TP to profit reasonably for farming it; all in an apparent ruse

… even though if someone didn’t optimize builds and sell their mats are reasonable prices from doing other PVE content like dungeons, they would just be called a noob for not doing those things.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)

Your idea of lucrative is related to whether or not it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.
If there is no ROI. Why would I ever make, say, celestial gear for OW content?

OW has no ROI other than tapping events. Which can be done with extremely inefficient builds.
Cost effectiveness & time investment needs to be taken into account.

Considering, again, that running naked with a staff mesmer I’ll likely tap just as many events in SW as you would. I find it hard to believe it’s worth investing any time in anything other than mobility.

I guess we simply have to have a difference of opinion if you can’t be open minded enough to consider that there are other ways to make money in OW than tapping events. /shrug.

Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)

Fay.2357:

Obtena.7952:

Not everyone thinks it’s boring and if you are optimized for it, it’s quite lucrative if you consider at the risk/reward of a relaxed PVE setting. I can’t force anyone to use optimized builds, but they exist and they do increase your returns for the time you spend in OW, just like they do for dungeons, etc … that’s of course, if you’re willing to experiment and try them out.

Low risk vs reward doesn’t make something lucrative, it makes something safe. Safe generally means less lucrative, not more.

To be fair, to make this kind of activity lucrative, you have to be more aware of what’s happening on the TP than say … having gold fall in your lap from doing a dungeon or getting that uber loot from chests in SW.

Not everyone thinks it’s boring and if you are optimized for it, it’s quite lucrative if you consider at the risk/reward of a relaxed PVE setting. I can’t force anyone to use optimized builds, but they exist and they do increase your returns for the time you spend in OW, just like they do for dungeons, etc … that’s of course, if you’re willing to experiment and try them out.

If I understand where you are going, I can only say that OW PVE is more than just AoE tagging and mobility.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think this is a good idea … you want full maps for the duration of the meta. Unless the daily is “Complete the meta event”, it will be problematic.

And what would prevent those people from participating in the meta? It’s not like doing dailies takes a lot of time.

That’s exactly my point … they will do only what they need to complete the daily, then bail out. Do you think that’s good for a map trying to complete the meta? I don’t think it is.

Sure there are already people in the map not doing meta … with dailies, you will have even more.

Just because you stated it, doesn’t make it true. Optimal OW PVE builds are more than just giving yourself mobility because mobility isn’t enough to ensure your optimized … especially redundant mobility like you suggested by stacking staff and Chrono.

So stacking a staff with Chrono is optimal in OW PVE because it gives you superior mobility where mostly everything you kill is trash … because of phase retreat? Is that serious? I’m going to speculate that more than a single skill is necessary to make staff worth stacking for reduntant skills just because of phase retreat.

Still, if you think that’s the case, my offer still stands. Give me a build and I will test it. I have no issue doing that.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

It is absurd, because OW content comes with pittance for rewards, and no one cares about it outside of plebs.
It’s not that hard to figure out.

Also, you argued against staff.

Again, staff provides superior mobility to the mesmer.
And ALL YOU WANT TO DO IN OW CONTENT IS TAP.
You could run all mantras and staff, and still tap in no time, then move onto the next event.

Pittance or not, you can optimize a build for it.

The ‘build’ you suggested uses Chrono … Time Marches On already has a runspeed buff and a significant decrease in mobility-imparing conditions. What superior mobility is staff offering beyond that? Random boons? That’s hardly reliable as superior mobility if you ask me. Redundant skills that don’t stack with constantly active passive skills would not usually define an optimized build.

OW is more than just tapping events and giving yourself redundant skills with poor weapon choices like Staff with Chrono.

It might be ridiculous to you, but you don’t know what the OP was asking. I merely suggested he might be considering OW performance. Obviously that got a few people a little upset and started talk about how it doesn’t matter, when in fact it does.

It’s plenty easy to settle; We just need some people to provide builds to test to see if optimizing for OW is absurd or not. If those builds have differences in time to run through OW content, then it’s not as absurd as you want people to believe it is. I can already tell you it does because an optimized build does run the same OW content faster than one that is not, just like dungeons, etc… , but apparently, some people are stubborn just to be argumentative I guess.

Anyone willing to step up or are you just all talk again?

apharma.3741:

Obtena.7952:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.

I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:

1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.

All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.

Again, literally don’t care.

Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?

For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.

Nothing beats a thief in XYZ travel time, thief has way higher DPS than a Mesmer, higher stealth uptime at little cost. For “optimised open world” hands down thief is best for it whatever you plan to do.

Therefore your entire posts for the last page are as irrelevant as open world.

You’re comprehension is lacking … I’m not discussing what profession is better for OW content and neither was anyone else. I’m simply asking for the people arguing with me to provide an optimized mesmer build for OW because they are claiming it doesn’t matter what build you use when in fact, I know it does; anyone that claims otherwise is just being obtuse. I’m genuinely interested in the topic so if they aren’t willing to post a build and simply argue, I can only assume they have nothing to add to my experience.

And for the record, you’re right; thief is one, if not the best, OW profession.

HappyHubris.1096:

Obtena.7952:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.

I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:

1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.

All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.

Again, literally don’t care.

Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?

For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.

Nobody wants to argue about your secret sauce Queensdale build, because every build is “good enough” for OW mobs. PvE balance is generally focused on cutting-edge content, because that’s where your class limitations will keep you from getting a spot.

Good, because I’m not asking anyone to argue with me; I’m asking people to post whatever build they think is relevant to what THEY want to argue with me about; optimized OW PVE. Talk is cheap.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.

I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:

1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.

All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.

Again, literally don’t care.

Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?

For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.

OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.

I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:

1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.

All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Dude, I literally run staff/gs in open world.
Staff to get around faster, GS to kill tougher mobs safely.

It seriously doesn’t matter.
I’m not going to be running S/Sh, X/S in open world anytime soon. And that would be about as “optimized” as you could get.

It doesn’t matter to you. It does to me and others. Frankly, if you don’t think optimization matters in OW PVE, then why are you even responding or discussing the topic with me? It’s ironic that optimized play in Dungeons to shave a minute or two from a run … no question … but the second someone suggests you can do the same in OW PVE to save time there as well …. who cares. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

I would love to hear why you think S/Sh is as optimal as you can get for OW PVE though. Might shed some light on what you consider as optimal. In fact, if you post a build, I would love to try it out to see how it compares to what I run and let you know how it works out.

BellatorDeus.2310:

Anyone else see any advantage for running an elementalist over a necromancer when running solo PvE?

None ….

Necro’s are more flexible to the situation having a weapon swap, more diversity with builds, can tailor their traits to balance offense/defense how you see fit and have easier skills management.

I don’t think this is a good idea … you want full maps for the duration of the meta. Unless the daily is “Complete the meta event”, it will be problematic.

I guess the idea here is simply maximizing DPS?

Is the reason you choose Pinpoint over No Scope for Scrapper build because of cap on crit%?

Fay.2357:

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that mesmer damage is fine because you can kill all the random trash that doesn’t matter? That’s just absurd.

No, I’m not … I never made a statement like that so … think whatever you want to be argumentative I guess.

Fay.2357:

On top of that, mesmer is still awful at killing open world trash. We have awful access to strong aoe. Literally every single other class in the game is FAR better than we are at open world killing.

AOE is not necessary to kill openworld trash. Most trash you encounter is single mobs. Even if you do events, you tend to have some kind of AoE to tag lots of things. Come to think of it though .. the build I use is loaded with AOE tools and bounces to deal with multi mob encounters. /shrug

I suggest that if you HAVEN’T thought about how you would optimize all class for OW content, you don’t argue with someone that has.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.

Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?

BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.

I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.

The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.

Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.

I hate to be that guy.
But no one cares about the open world.

You could literally run all signet warrior with S/S M/S and still be okay in the open world.
The problem comes in when you want to do high level fractals and raids.
Or, frankly, any fractal really.

Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.

These are my favourite responses. Who cares about openworld? I guess the answer would be: the people that want to optimize their play in it. Just because you haven’t taken a considered thought about how to optimize your time there doesn’t mean that there aren’t others who haven’t.

You are right; OW is easy but that doesn’t mean you can’t optimize to play in that area.

Fay.2357:

Obtena.7952:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.

Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?

BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.

I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.

The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.

Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.

Unfortunately, you’re just wrong. The “burst” mesmer can do is blown away by the amount of cleave damage an ele does while autoattacking. The most you could ever possibly do with a shatter burst would be ~15k in total. An ele will do this in about 2 seconds of autoattacking.

What does ele have to do with this? I’m not ‘wrong’ because I didn’t even talk about ele’s … This isn’t a peeing contest to see who kills what faster, it’s simply showing Mesmer has an element of what is necessary to be optimal for OW content.

The fact remains that the burst I can get on Mesmer is sufficient to kill any trash mob in OW very quickly and can be accessed frequently enough to be use whenever a trash mob is encountered; the recipe for trashkilling OW goodness.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.

Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?

BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.

I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.

The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.

Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.

What’s nice is that Anet STILL caters to people who play by dropping in for a bit whenever they feel like. They didn’t say that EVERY bit of the game would do that though. In fact, not every bit of the game ever did, so it should be no surprise there are more elements intro’ed that don’t now either, or in the future.

My issue with what people have done with ‘casual’ as a definition is that they have assumed that generally, it’s not casual friendly because of HoT meta timers, which is untrue. Their real complaint should be that they don’t benefit from participating for the time they have available to them in the HoT meta events; I actually agree with that. Unfortunately, they have attempted to make it sensational by attaching “not casual friendly” to their argument, which actually degrades this point quite a bit, depending on what people think casual means. being sensational does not make a stronger point.

Vayne.8563:

I almost never play HoT with a timer. I almost never look at the timer. I’ve done every single meta event in HoT multiple times without ever looking at a timer.

See I’m casual. I don’t say I really want to play this content NAO. That’s not a casual mindset. I jump into a map and I hang around and do stuff. Whatever stuff happens to be going on. Sometimes it’s just events. If I end up in a map long enough, or if I’m lucky I can catch a meta. That’s how I almost always get one.

The difference is that I enjoy these maps more than core maps so I’m more likely to be there and there are less maps so I’m more likely to catch one of the new metas.

I’ve had the same thing happen with world bosses, I just happen to be in a zone and they show up. It’s not magic.

But with four zones, it’s likely that any zone I’m in will start a meta at some point.

You FEEL like you have to watch a clock, because you discount everything in the zone except for the meta. That’s a choice.

I think this is very important because what defines you as casual isn’t how much you can play at a give time or when you can play; being casual isn’t a question of ‘time’.

It’s about a carefree approach to playing the game. Not “I want to do this now” but “what can I do now?” A casual player doesn’t care if they missed a daily or the boss timer; the issues people are raising here about ‘schedules’ does not concern someone who is casual. If a casual player misses a timer, they just go do the next thing available to them. The above post makes a WHOLE lot of sense to me and it’s why I think Anet hasn’t betrayed their core market with HoT either.

I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.

Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?

BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.

Simple question I think:

Is weapon kit damage affected by the quality of weapon you have equipped?

For example, if I use an exotic vs. ascended rifle, does my flamethrower damage change? It doesn’t seem to be the case from Wiki.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t understand why this is a problem … do you expect all classes to be all meta for every game element all the time? That’s a very unreasonable expectation … you have played other MMO’s correct?

No I don’t expect everything to be meta.

I am quite disappointed however at how many things on the guardian were either created badly in the first place, received uneeded nerfs or just left alone to become crap. (Hence why nearly half the guardian utility skills are rarely if ever used in any game node as well as nearly half the traits being crap and numerous weapon skills having serious problems)

It is also quite disappointing how Anet ignores the advice of many of the top tier players, especially when they are warning them not to do something. (for instance giving guardian traps, they knew the design & balance problems that traps have, were asked not to but did anyway.)

The first could be easily remedied if they would take some of their profits to hire some people to update skills on guardian & other classes.
The second shows a disconnect with how the class actually functions & what it is actually capable of. It could easily be solved by actually sitting down with the top end players and talking to them about how they use it & its problems.

None of this is new for Anet or the MMO world in general though. I have yet to play any game where everyone is just so happy with every class, all the time. I mean, it’s the status quo that there are classes that move up and down in ranking, in and out of meta, etc … What people seem to expect is exceptional.

I don’t deny there are things that can be better but I don’t find that these threads are particularly constructive if you have something serious to say. Carry on I guess.

I don’t understand why this is a problem … do you expect all classes to be all meta for every game element all the time? That’s a very unreasonable expectation … you have played other MMO’s correct?

There are other builds thare a quite good without needing elite as well, the problem is that people don’t recognize them as meta, so apparently they don’t count. This is where people fail to recognize what Anet is doing with their game design; Anet never intended for people to gravitate to some meta culture, though they probably should have known better than that. If players interpret the game in a way that is counter to how the devs designed it, then of course the conclusion is “elites are better”.

FogLeg.9354:

reapex.8546:

FogLeg.9354:

dlmoore.7293:

It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me.

Yes. Its called Pay-To-Win. You can play GW2 for free but you will be weaker compared to other players who payed for the HoT.

Rumormill, the core specs can fight against the elite specs too. Player skill can make up the difference. The game is still B2P.

Maybe for you, not for me. Our WvW guild raid uses DH, Reaper, Chrono, Druid, Scrapper and Tempest. We do use Warriors without Berserker, and no Thieves or Rev.

So, it’s 6 elite spec and 1 normal. Based on that I would say HoT is not optional, and elites are required.

It is possible you play different gamemodes where any class can be useful. You did not specify that so I gave an example about elites being superior and required for success.

That does not define ‘required’.

Blaeys.3102:

I agree with the OP on this one.

I would be (kinda) okay with a dps check if all professions could bring competitive dps to the fight. As it stands, they most definitely cannot, meaning the raids favor those who have played the high dps professions for the past three years. In other words, bringing the right profession is MUCH more important than bringing the right player, which makes for much of the nastiness you see associated with raids.

If they want to use enrage timers to provide the illusion of difficulty, then they need to fix that disparity. If not, they need to build fights without enrage timers (imo).

Actually, it’s the opposite; the more people in a raid, the LESS likely you need to bring the ‘right’ professions to the raid because the smaller contribution your damage to the overall raid is, good or bad.

Enrage timers aren’t there for the difficulty, it’s there to ensure you don’t get 5 healers and 5 tanks bouncing aggro and cheesing the raid.

Strongest solo isn’t going to be the same as the strongest in group play. Other than that, your question is far too vague.

If it’s an OUTFIT, you don’t need to worry, because you simply wear outfits over your armor, so changing armors doesn’t impact your outfit looks.

If it’s an ARMOR SKIN, you are correct … if you want to see yourself in that skin everytime you get new armor, you need to transmute your skin.

Glad people are losing gold on HoT while I’m making bank with it.

Burtnik.5218:

Marthkus.4615:

Weapon swap is good for the class. It gives us 20 skills to play with.

We could get 20 skills in another way like engi/ele. Most likely its too late tho

No disrespect but your idea is not well thought out here. Anet implemented weapon swaps on Rev because it was deficient as a class. Taking it away, just to create MORE work to address that deficiency in a different way is foolish.

Let’s be honest here and tell us what you really want … because I’m sure you don’t want to kitten the class further, which is what swaps will do without other options happening.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

We can all stand around and hate on timers, but I haven’t seen anything that exchanges a timer for something else to prevent cheesing the raids with ultratank/heal raid groups; the whole point of the enrage timers in the first place.

Then i suggest you actually read through the thread.

Yeah, I have and I have still yet to see something that does timers better than timers already does at preventing content from being cheesed, even the ones you made.

Timers are boring and not clever? Yup, but they work really well and they are easy and cheap to implement.

DGraves.3720:

The sole problem with timers is that they create a false level of difficulty. The fact that you only have so long to complete something does not actually change the way players play; it would be different if DPS wasn’t the preconditioned base where players really were trying to outlive enemies but that was never a problem.

“Zerker, zerker, zerker!” is what they cried, not “Knights, Knights, Knights!”

In reality a timer only pushes the concept of a Zerker meta rather than undoing it. It’s as if saying “Hey, here’s a great idea, let’s punish you for playing with anything but purely offensive stats.” This inflates artificial difficulty because you have no defense so as far as they are concerned they don’t have to produce terribly challenging content to kill you because the playerbase plays like they have a deathwith to begin with.

Timers = kitten.

We can all stand around and hate on timers, but I haven’t seen anything that exchanges a timer for something else to prevent cheesing the raids with ultratank/heal raid groups; the whole point of the enrage timers in the first place.

Ayrilana.1396:

Cobrakon.3108:

People don’t understand the necessity of Ascended gear. This grind is not optional IF, and a big if here.

If you play in WvW. Who in their right mind would want to play WvW at a disadvantage? You might think "wel it doesnt make much difference because people zerg etc etc.

No! it does make a difference especially if roam a lot. It’s like disgusting thinking that you could lose because of your gear. Now skill wins most of the time. But think about those close calls, think about those wars of attrition. Sooner or later ascended gives you an advantage. Maybe not in some mindless zerg train. But there are times.

If you have a single competitive bone in your body and you like playing WvW you have to get ascended.

For the rest of the pve wise, its not that important. Maybe if there were damage meters or something like that then maybe.

I have the blessing of only Playing one class Primarily, I hate to think of the poor guy who runs all the classes.

Luckily ascended trinkets and backpacks are easy to obtain. There’s a cost for ascended weapons but it’s not really that bad. Armor only provides about a 2% DPS boost so can easily be ignored.

Not only that but unless a player is a solo roamer, all their disadvantages of using exotics goes out in the wash that is due to the randomness of zerg PVP.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

When was the last time you only paid a little over a hundred bucks to play WoW? You might want to ignore the real money costs to strengthen your position about how bad some elements of GW2 are but the fact remains that for the content we get with the money we paid to get it, GW2 has massive value compared to many other mainstream MMO’s.

if you’re going to be super active, all you want to pay is the price for the game + the newest expansion. Subscription can be bought for gold now directly from Battlenet. So technically, the last time could have been when sub for gold started.

That being said “GW2 has more content than WoW” is objectively incorrect. It has nothing to do with cost. Or am I satisfied or unsatisfied with GW2, or do I or do I not play WoW. It’s a very silly statement to start your comment with. And that was my point.

I didn’t say GW2 has more content than WoW. I don’t know where you’re coming up with that. You didn’t answer my original question but that’s OK, it’s rhetorical anyways and I shouldn’t be so cryptic with some people. It does seem you aren’t able to differentiate between Cost and Value, so I will try to educate you.

Cost is part of the equation to evaluate if some gets value from a product or a service. The point the poster is trying to make, which I agree with, is that GW2 gives great value considering the content you get for the price you pay.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

When was the last time you only paid a little over a hundred bucks to play WoW? You might want to ignore the real money costs to strengthen your position about how bad some elements of GW2 are but the fact remains that for the content we get with the money we paid to get it, GW2 has massive value compared to many other mainstream MMO’s.

if you’re going to be super active, all you want to pay is the price for the game + the newest expansion. Subscription can be bought for gold now directly from Battlenet. So technically, the last time could have been when sub for gold started.

My original question stands … how much could you have accessed and played WoW for the same price we got HoT+GW2 core for?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/18141101/introducing-the-wow-token-3-2-2015

that was exactly a year ago. Currently expansion and base WoW is 40$. So I’m left with 60. Sub is 13$. So that’s aprox 6 extra months before the token got introduced, so 1.5 years + future?

That’s a nice cherrypicked value but I suppose I wasn’t clear though I don’t think it was unreasonable to expect relevant comparisons to similar timeframes between the two games. Still, let’s try again … What about when it first came out or when it wasn’t a decade old? Let’s pick a RELEVANT timeframe to compare WoW’s cost to GW2 … let’s say a little after WoW’s first expansion? I haven’t played WoW, but I bet the cost breakdown is something similar to this:

1. Cost for original game at release: about $50
2. Monthly sub for $15 × 12 months = $170ish
3. Assume first expansion after … 12 months? costs about $40?
4. a few more months at $15 to play expansion (let’s say 4 months?) = $60

You can correct my numbers if you want … I suspect I was generous.

what is better a Fiat Punto or a Ferrari?

All depends what you’re looking for in a car and how much you’re willing to pay to get it: that’s what value is. I think a Fiat is WAY better value than a Ferrari. Value is NOT just quality and quality is such a broad term that it’s rather ambiguous to begin with. It’s pretty disingenuous to imply that HoT was not a high quality release. You might not like the content or think there was enough of it, but those are not what an objective person would say are ‘quality’ factors.

I can’t comment on WoW’s value; I don’t play it. But I have played other high quality MMO’s and comparatively, GW2 has massive value to ANY MMO I have played with a monthly fee. That’s why I stay. No MMO I have played gave me more entertainment time and experience for the amount I’ve paid to play it than GW2 has. I don’t doubt anyone with an objective view of the game would say otherwise, even if they didn’t like HoT.

EDIT: I only have to add extra conditions on my arguments because certain advantageous people aren’t willing to make relevant comparisons to have reasonable discussions.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

When was the last time you only paid a little over a hundred bucks to play WoW? You might want to ignore the real money costs to strengthen your position about how bad some elements of GW2 are but the fact remains that for the content we get with the money we paid to get it, GW2 has massive value compared to many other mainstream MMO’s.

if you’re going to be super active, all you want to pay is the price for the game + the newest expansion. Subscription can be bought for gold now directly from Battlenet. So technically, the last time could have been when sub for gold started.

That being said “GW2 has more content than WoW” is objectively incorrect. It has nothing to do with cost. Or am I satisfied or unsatisfied with GW2, or do I or do I not play WoW. It’s a very silly statement to start your comment with. And that was my point.

I didn’t say GW2 has more content than WoW. I don’t know where you’re coming up with that. You didn’t answer my original question but that’s OK, it’s rhetorical anyways and I shouldn’t be so cryptic with some people. It does seem you aren’t able to differentiate between Cost and Value, so I will try to educate you.

Cost is part of the equation to evaluate if some gets value from a product or a service. The point the poster is trying to make, which I agree with, is that GW2 gives great value considering the content you get for the price you pay.

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

Mirta.5029:

Obtena.7952:

When was the last time you only paid a little over a hundred bucks to play WoW? You might want to ignore the real money costs to strengthen your position about how bad some elements of GW2 are but the fact remains that for the content we get with the money we paid to get it, GW2 has massive value compared to many other mainstream MMO’s.

if you’re going to be super active, all you want to pay is the price for the game + the newest expansion. Subscription can be bought for gold now directly from Battlenet. So technically, the last time could have been when sub for gold started.

My original question stands … how much could you have accessed and played WoW for the same price we got HoT+GW2 core for?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/18141101/introducing-the-wow-token-3-2-2015

that was exactly a year ago. Currently expansion and base WoW is 40$. So I’m left with 60. Sub is 13$. So that’s aprox 6 extra months before the token got introduced, so 1.5 years + future?

That’s a nice cherrypicked value but I suppose I wasn’t clear though I don’t think it was unreasonable to expect relevant comparisons to similar timeframes between the two games. Still, let’s try again … What about when it first came out or when it wasn’t a decade old? Let’s pick a RELEVANT timeframe to compare WoW’s cost to GW2 … let’s say a little after WoW’s first expansion? I haven’t played WoW, but I bet the cost breakdown is something similar to this:

1. Cost for original game at release: about $50
2. Monthly sub for $15 × 12 months = $170ish
3. Assume first expansion after … 12 months? costs about $40?
4. a few more months at $15 to play expansion (let’s say 4 months?) = $60

You can correct my numbers if you want … I suspect I was generous but even still … that’s over $300, and that’s my educated guess for the least amount you had to spend for about 16 months of access to WoW. Let me do the same for 3+ years of GW2.

1. Initial game spend: $60
2. HoT spend: $60

The whole point that the poster had related to the costs was a pretty simple and valid argument if you ask me; if you’re expecting WoW content quantity and quality (when it was at it’s first expansion, not a decade later mind you) for an independent studio price with no monthly sub, you’re just unrealistic and unreasonable.

Mirta.5029:

Avarice.2791:

This game delivers more content than WoW without the $15 a month

this made me laugh. When was the last time WoW delivered an expansion with a single (not finished) raid, that only has a single difficulty and no dungeons, not to mention only 4 maps?

When was the last time you only paid a little over a hundred bucks to play WoW? At $15 a month, you wouldn’t have even gotten 9 months out of WoW from release for the same price Core GW2 + HoT cost. If you’re a late adoptor, you got an even BETTER deal than that.

You might want to ignore the real money costs to strengthen your position about how bad some elements of GW2 are but the fact remains that for the content we get with the money we paid to get it, GW2 has massive value compared to many other mainstream MMO’s.

Not sure I understood that answer; would an example of a mechanic that forces you to respect them be a dodgeable attack that downs you?

See, for me, that’s the kind of thing that I would like theorycrafters step up to include in their models. What happens to the DPS output of the meta build in an encounter where you have to dodge a melee attack that one-shots you every 20 seconds? How does a ranged build compare in that situation if it doesn’t have to dodge? I think exploring those kinds of things in specific scenarios where there are differences between meta and non-meta build factors has quite a bit of merit because meta is only meta when a player has that skill threshold and let’s be honest, that’s not everyone.

Maybe looking into these things isn’t valuable in GW2 because the team content is dumbed down too much for casual players? I guess really what I’m interested in: If a player is a noob, is meta still the best build for them. Again, for example, if they just suck at dodging, do I want to promote a melee range meta build to that player? Is that the best recommendation I can give them? I really don’t think it is.