I think I wasn’t too clear. I acknowledge there are clever ways to avoid direct enrage timers by the kinds of DPS checking mechanics you describe but make no mistake, whether it’s a number of DPS checks IN the encounter or one big final one on the boss with a timer, it’s still the same thing.
I’m looking for someone to suggest a way that is NOT a DPS check to ensure players don’t cheese encounters with ultratank/Heal builds.
I’ve been getting ready for high-end PVE content, and now I’m starting to see this MMO for being a “non-grindy pay-to-play” feels grindier than say…. TERA (f2p) or The Secret World (P2P).
If you made yourself aware of what gear you actually need to be successful in high end PVE content, then you wouldn’t have to grind. You can literally launch yourself in to high end PVE content right out of exotics, not unreasonably obtained from doing story, leveling, etc ….
Yeah it was good post and I agree with much of it. I still see an opportunity to expand the scope and improve build characterization efforts. I’m still not convinced that even if a build is best DPS on paper, under what scenarios does it significantly change and perhaps even NOT be best DPS in the game
I commented on the thread content. It’s relevant. You took issue with it. If you agree with the poster, say why and support his opinion.
I pointed out how you stated something completely false about the OP. That seems to me like a perfectly valid and relevant contribution. More relevant than your reply to something that wasn’t said anyway.
That’s great …
… so do you agree with the OP that there is nothing to do in the expansion or not?
The BEST way to FARM them is to do events in maps where the Charged Lodestones and Cores are the rewards.
When there is not a map where these are the reward, the NEXT best way to farm is to kill high level Sparks and Air Elementals in Malchor’s Leap.
Finally, you can also kill Dust Mites and Dust Mite Twisters in Silverwastes … AFAIK, they still have a chance to drop them.
The BEST way to get them overall is to simply earn gold and buy them. The good part is that very few people are after Mjolnir, so as more Charged Lodestones enter market from map rewards, the price goes down since demand changes little.
Did you ever get so madthat you bought a game out of rage?
That was me last night after wasting well over a half hour trying to keep Nobles camp from dying so I could access Axemaster G. There was a total of 4 people that ever appeared and only one helping out.
So, finally, choppers down, and boss time. Axemaster G has me and the one guy asking for help in chat. The rest of the map was busy failmashing on Matriarch, taking a solid 16 minutes to down a single boss. With 4 minutes left, there was no way Axemaster was going down. Nevermind that Axemaster is a horribly designed boss that no one will ever do a second time because of insta-kills and constantly spawning adds. Why bother?
There are questions raised by the OP? I see a total of 1 question related to WvW … the rest is just a rant.
Frankly, I stopped at the first statement because it in itself is ridiculous and set the tone for the remainder of his post. There is NOTHING to do in new areas? That’s nonsense … especially for something that has ground his keyboard out on 11000 hours of core GW2. So the guy found 11000 hours of content to play in Core GW2 but there is NOTHING for him to do in HoT? I call BS.
Every single statement he’s made could be completely dismissed in a similar manner. being sensational and absolute does not make for a discussion starter. In conclusion; he doesn’t want to be taken seriously.
Right, it’s not worth it anymore so … the value they got from 11K for a hundred bucks just disappears? Gotcha.
no, that just means that the original GW2 was a good purchase. If they couldn’t even get a couple tens of hours out of HoT though, HoT was a really BAD purchase.
Yup, I got that. Yet still, for the OP to claim he didn’t get his value from the total time he spent ingame for the price he paid, is ridiculous. OP claims Anet’s bottom line is more important than satisfying someone who’s played 11000 … Obviously that’s a little disingenuous because they are exceptional case. I don’t think it’s a stretch to see that he’s got MORE than his money’s worth from the time he’s played, even when HoT is included.
He real complain (which I find poorly expressed) is that he paid for HoT and didn’t get the expected value from it.
I would LOVE to see someone else suggest a better way than enrage timers to deal with cheesing hard content with ultratank/healing builds instead of arguing how bad it is. It’s not THAT bad … lots of games have them and they work. It might not be the best but then, does it need to be?
How is using a tank group cheesing? We have groups 5-6 manning, only [insert profession] groups. Why would a slower, damage per second, tank group be cheesing?
I for one dislike the idea of the 1 heal, 1 tank, 8 dd, meta that we have now….hmmm reminds me of the holy-trinity. I would like to see stuff like 3 healers, 5 tanks, 2 dds, new types of group compositions.
Because using a fulltank/healing group with no enrage timer would degrade the difficulty of the encounter to the point where anyone could complete the raid with little consideration for mechanics. They simply trade doing defensive actions for time spent doing the raid.
I would LOVE to see someone else suggest a better way than enrage timers to deal with cheesing hard content with ultratank/healing builds instead of arguing how bad it is. It’s not THAT bad … lots of games have them and they work. It might not be the best but then, does it need to be?
If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?
You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.
you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.
??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.
for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.
for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?
For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.
For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.
why dont you go do it?
Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.
no i mean, youre complaining that no one wants to go make videos showing how much dps they can put out… so why dont you go do it?
No I actually DIDN’T complain that no one makes videos showing how much DPS they put out. I don’t care about videos; you don’t need to make videos to measure DPS. Am I talking to a wall here or what?
yes, youre talking to a wall. obviously.
you keep saying its pointless to do calculations now that jaxnx and gw2dps are here, and you seem to be getting mad at people for providing calculations and asking for videos of people doing this ingame instead.
so.. again, you can go do this yourself. so why not? nothing stopping you. and if you make a video, it helps the cause.
I’m not really sure what you’re asking me to do here; I use the DPS meter all the time to see what my DPS is and I don’t know what kind of video you want me to make; the output from the DPS meter is just a number. You want a video of a number on a screen?
My original point was pretty simple and it spawned from you asking me what is a better approach to get DPS than calculations. I’m not sure where you get that I’m needing videos that I can make myself.
If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?
You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.
you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.
??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.
for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.
for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?
For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.
For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.
why dont you go do it?
Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.
no i mean, youre complaining that no one wants to go make videos showing how much dps they can put out… so why dont you go do it?
No I actually DIDN’T complain that no one makes videos showing how much DPS they put out. I don’t care about videos; you don’t need to make videos to measure DPS. Am I talking to a wall here or what?
The question here isn’t if the damage output calculated from one skill or a string of them is precise. The real question of interest is the correlation between the DPS you get from a build playing the game and the calculation; they can’t be exact because the calculations are simply max possible DPS outputs; realistically, you can’t get the max possible, or very few people can.
If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?
You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.
you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.
??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.
for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.
for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?
For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.
For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.
why dont you go do it?
Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.
If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?
You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.
you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.
??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.
for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.
for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?
For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.
For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.
If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?
You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.
you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.
??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.
If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?
You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.
Some people have a hard time seeing reality … you can now glide in Core Tyria. If that doesn’t kill the concept of mounts in GW2, I don’t know what will.
Question is, why do people care so much about how much profit NCSoft makes or doesn’t make? Let’s face it. With the current state of the game and the engine it’s built on, I reckon within the next 2 years tops GW2 will be about as popular as Kim Jong Eun’s hair style. Which is pretty fab if I do say so myself.
Because it’s players that care about Guild Wars 2 future.
I’m personally glad Guild Wars 2 is doing well.
But its not doing well based on those figures. They couldn’t sustain ongoing development on the base gem sales and the HOT sales are clearly disappointing and not enough to sustain the game until the next xpac.
Even if NCSoft admit it’s a poor showing, that’s STILL not enough to make the conclusion you have made here. What’s MORE likely is that NCSoft are referring to a poor result based on expected ROI, not some relative assessment to what is sustainable or not. These quarterly earnings are about communications with investors, not players.
Is anyone aware of a group who is testing out meta builds using actual DPS measurements from Jaxnx instead of calculations? If it’s being done and posted somewhere, I would like to see the results.
So funny to see the kittening match about optimization, then see same people not acknowledge that the currently accepted approach for predicting DPS in this game isn’t completely flawed in the first place.
then what is better? im open to being convinced if you think you know so well.
I already explained it. Frankly, no one gives a Rat’s behind what any calculation tells you because it’s just a ceiling value that ignores real game factors. Players are going to be WAY more apt to listen to someone who is promoting meta that actually measures DPS from real gameplay (something you can easily do with the Jaxnx tool and demonstrate to people) than inventing it in Excel.
So funny to see the kittening match about optimization, then see same people not acknowledge that the currently accepted approach for predicting DPS in this game isn’t completely flawed in the first place.
Theorycrafters: “Here is your meta; we have a complex Excel calculation that says it’s the best”
Players: “OK, we tried it, we don’t get the same numbers you did”
Theorycrafters: “Well, you’re not supposed to, we know the calculation results don’t match what happens ingame”
Players: “Maybe you’re wrong? How do you account for things like DPS downtime, etc…”
Theorycrafters: “You don’t know what you’re talking about; those are not significant factors”
Players: “OK, so how do we trust your calculations prove this is the meta”?
Theorycrafters: “Because it’s Math … noob”
Players: ???
it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.
No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.
finally, he speaks words of truth.
You’re amazed at the damage you do not do …
First for everything.
that number is referring to paper dps and generally one can only get 75-95% of it, especially as engi.
As a genuine math/economics question why would you model high and then deflate your own model? Wouldn’t it make sense to model low and then inflate your own model?
… because no one that does the theorycrafting in GW2 is actually interested in checking the correlation between the model and the actual. Their goal is to simply convince everyone that the meta is a specific high DPS build. Doing more than modeling these max DPS builds is against their motives; It’s simply more advantageous and way easier to ‘sell’ a model as being correct than to show it is correct.
What would ACTUALLY make sense is if models were created that MATCH ingame results, then parameters in those models adjusted to see how close they are as predictors of other scenarios. Only THEN can the models be accepted with a known level of confidence. Seems someone thought that only doing half the work backwards was a good idea, and people bought it because ‘lacking science background’.
The sad part is that all those tools are now available to do this in a reasonable way; but people’s reputation and credibility are at risk so they won’t do it. The only value we get from theorycrafting the way it’s done in GW2 is we get ceilings for specific builds; that has a questionable usefulness.
Their are always going to be people that defend the idea that the DPS calculated on paper has a very high correlation to what the actual DPS is in-game, which would need to be measured to confirm this, which I’ve never seen anyone do.
It’s astounding that these calculated DPS values are held in such high regard when this has not been done, even when very simple thought-experiments demonstrate some of those calculated values are not even realistic.
That’s why I don’t think the OP has an answer yet: The answer isn’t found in Excel; it’s found by making a build and measuring the DPS from it and comparing that to a measured DPS build from these so-called ‘meta’ builds.
Jeez … Guardian was never NOT in the meta. These ridiculous ideas are from ranters trying to convince everyone that Guardian/DH is a horrible class. Funny that they got some of you.
Then why were there no Guardians in any of the teams during the most recent tournament?
Because the other classes were changed. OP explained it pretty well. Let me put it another way:
If the meta is such a dynamic beast when devs change the game, it is really a thing or is is just people’s perception? I don’t think I’m too far off. People QQ about what’s this and that; people that don’t want to figure it out themselves just go with it. My favourite is that just a few weeks ago before balance changes, people were QQing about the demise of the class. How does anyone take this stuff seriously, i don’t know.
Jeez … Guardian was never NOT in the meta. These ridiculous ideas are from ranters trying to convince everyone that Guardian/DH is a horrible class. Funny that they got some of you.
Why can’t I have something risk and fee-free? Why am I not allowed to have that as the player? What’s wrong with giving me the possibility?
Because trade systems across nearly all MMO’s suffer the risk of scams. THe trading post does not.
How the hell do you get scammed in a trade where you have to confirm?
You would think it’s not a thing but you know .. it happens.
I don’t think the point here is how it happens, the point is that as it stand right now, you CAN’T be scammed in GW2. I don’t think that’s the reason for the lack of P2P trading, but it’s a great side effect of it.
In all honesty, I can’t think of a reason to implement P2P trading, other than simply wanting it. If you think about it, P2P trading can significantly undermine revenues from GW2 so that’s likely the motivator.
In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.
HoT being what it is isn’t the answer to the original game being too easy.
HoT’s problems have nothing to do with its level of difficulty.
I think HoT is actually a really good answer to the game being too easy because it’s not easy. I can’t see why you think it isn’t, other than just being contrarian. The problems with HoT might not have anything to do with it’s difficulty, but it has much to do with what makes it successful.
It is easy.
Good thing you don’t speak for everyone and in absolutes, eotherwise I would have to write a wall of text arguing for no reason with you.
Um, no it’s not how OW is always in MMO’s, I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the OW content is significantly harder than playing Core GW2 … you know, where you can actually die.
examples that weren’t made 10 years ago or more?
Right, just because my experiences span more than 10 years, they must be irrelevant. >< I get there is a drive for braindead easy OW PVE for newer markets … that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a demand that ANet can try to fill for not-braindead OW PVE as well.
In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.
where was the non stop yelling about how open world PVE should be upped in general? As I’m very curious for examples. When people ask for difficulty they tend to mean instances like dungeons and raids. Challenging solo instances were very welcome during season 1 and 2 of living story. More challenging open world bosses received a more mixed response (look at how people viewed redone Tequatl). Very challenging open world as a whole tends to mostly get a negative response.
RIght … we don’t see hordes of people QQing about PVE being too easy on the forums, so it must not be a thing … Gotcha.
In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.
HoT being what it is isn’t the answer to the original game being too easy.
HoT’s problems have nothing to do with its level of difficulty.
I think HoT is actually a really good answer to the game being too easy because it’s not easy. I can’t see why you think it isn’t, other than just being contrarian. The problems with HoT might not have anything to do with it’s difficulty, but it has much to do with what makes it successful.
I don’t get your point at all. It’s easy, bite-sized content. Agreed, and that only goes to the point I’m making how Core is just a pathetically easy content, packaged in a nice looking visual … which is REALLY cool if you just like to walk around and look at stuff, like a museum.
which is how open world is always in MMOs? Accessible to all?
That being said, I already said that HoT is not hard, just tedius.
Um, no it’s not how OW is always in MMO’s, I’ve played plenty of MMO’s where the OW content is significantly harder than playing Core GW2 … you know, where you can actually die.
I find it quite amusing how people are throwing the original GW2 under the bus in a futile attempt to assault people’s opinions on HoT. It makes me wonder why they even played “poor”, “easy”, “stale” GW2 at all.
That’s funny … for someone complaining about ‘gates’ like mushrooms in HoT, I was wondering in the same way how you managed to get past the first map without ragequiting because of the ‘gate’ of ‘doing stuff’. In case you haven’t noticed, people have been throwing GW2 under the bus since day one for being too easy. Might have something to do with why HoT is what it is.
FT doesn’t do as much DPS as grenades? OK, but HOW much less? Enough to convince me crit procing and quicknessing my way into a hybrid from power FT build isn’t worth that difference? Show me!
Uhhh, one post above yours – there is a picture that shows what you want to know!
I think you misunderstand what I’m asking for and typically what people are talking about when analyzing DPS.
When someone says “X Build is the top DPS”, they are talking about a specific build that relies on a set of rotations of skills. What I think I see in your chart is an assembly of individual skills in isolation. That really doesn’t tell anyone the DPS you get for the ideal rotation in any particular build.
For instance .. let’s simplify with a comparison:
Does the highest DPS FT camping build use Flame Blast or not? I can’t tell from just your chart. Usually this is answered with a model the skills as they execute over a period of time and enhance those model based on proc’ing other effects, conditions, etc … If your chart does do that, then I simply don’t understand it.
My overall general question is how much DPS am I losing camping an FT vs. meta with Grenades or whatever. That way I can kitten the benefit of the boons I’m getting from the FT build I’m using and if it’s worth the loss of damage.
Hold on … so voracious alt players would be more likely to play multiple times through 15 maps of Core Tyria-like content than 4 maps of HoT-like content? If there is anything MORE stale than 4 maps of HoT-like content, it’s 15 maps of Core-like content. Of course, it depends on who’s behind the keyboard but quantity of maps is not relevant, unless of course the goal was to hide poor, easy content behind an expanse of shiny looking visuals akin to a MMO scenery museum… Oh, I sort of described what Core feels like right there.
except that old maps had content that new maps do not:
free exploration with nothing being gated,
hearts, skill points and vistas (loved all 3, never liked dynamic events),
content being in more of a bite sized chunk making it easier to consume it. If I logged in on my alt and decided to do Sylvari starting area, it would probably take me an hour. I can’t set myself the same goal in HoT, due to locks behind masteries and dynamic event timers,
Old maps are less tedious. Fighting the same enemy with no mistakes done for over a minute is not fun, nor challenging. It’s tedious. When a map is too tedious, nobody likes it. Similarly to how Orr was very unpopulated and hated until the undead population was culled,
More maps = more environment change. Even in the same biodome, two maps didn’t look identical. You kind of lose that sense of visual progression when you’re stuck on the same 20% of a map for days.
I don’t get your point at all. It’s easy, bite-sized content. Agreed, and that only goes to the point I’m making how Core is just a pathetically easy content, packaged in a nice looking visual … which is REALLY cool if you just like to walk around and look at stuff, like a museum, with the odd interruption due to a trash mob you handle with a few autos.
