…. and we still have no word on trap updates or what direction they are going to take. None of the classes are 100% ready for launch (except maybe Reaper and Chrono) but I feel after BWE3, all of them will be… except DH. Of course there will still be tweaks and touch ups to all of the specs and classes after launch but I feel like we are being so left in the dark with this.
Is the DH feedback THAT negative that DH has just been pushed aside? Reading that theres basically no changes to them for BWE3 means we really have nothing to talk about. Sorry for rant. continue your day
We have no word? We have LOTS of word … go read the BWE3 stickied thread. We know we are getting trap changes and will have the opportunity to test them this weekend in BWE3. If you feel you’ve been left in the dark, just take one step out into the light. Anet HAS given us the information you think they haven’t.
Edit: Oh, nevermind … seems you’ve been posting in that thread where the ‘not-given’ information on trap updates was actually given to us by Anet in the first post. I’m going to assume you’ve missed it. I recommend you read it.
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All the same old arguments being rehashed. The fact is that there are now 4 ways to obtain a precursor and people STILL see fit to complain about it. The best part is going to be when people that wanted to craft precursors start complaining it’s harder to craft than it is to just buy it ouutright … just like many of us told them it would be years ago if they ever became craftable.
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Why afraid losing to Druid, which would ONLY be useful in raid and nothing else?
It’s not that people are afraid. It’s more like they think they can use ‘DRUID’ as a reason to complain about Guardians/DH to get things changed, hopefully the way they want it. A very unrealistic and obvious ruse. There is actually no reason to bring up tools from class A to discuss improvements to class B. They are independent of each other.
Is that what Anet thinks, or what players decide makes sense to them? Again, Anet determines and owns the concept of the class. What players decide/interpret/think has likely little to no influence on this.
I disagree here.
Guardian threads asking for Dps used to be common untill we got meditations buffed.
Guardian threads asking for a better long-range weapon were also common… Dragonhunter.Very little noise has ever been made about our lackluster healing. consequentially, it’s gone through 3 years of “in a good place” backsliding through power creep.
Don’t confuse the difference between feedback concerning the concept of the class and the design of the class. You are referring to elements of design and the value of player feedback has much more influence and value than it does for the concept.
For example; the concept of the DH is things like “it has traps, uses LB and is broadly conceived as a hunter”. The design are things like ‘this trap cripples’ and ‘this trait gives bonus to damage’. Very different levels of realization.
Design follows concept. People wanting to get rid of traps, for example, don’t understand how that’s less likely to happen than simply addressing elements of the traps themselves.
Lol, when I use lore that you don’t like or that puts holes through ANet’s BS then it’s “using a specific version of lore” that doesn’t coincide with what ANet is doing. I’ll leave you alone to your white-knighting and delusion.
You don’t see that you’re using lore outside of GW2 to justify whatever you think something should be. In fact, you can justify ANYTHING if you want to do that, which is why it’s a weak argument to use it to request change. The lore IN GW2 is what Anet wants it to be, not what you think it should because this thing you experienced in GW1. Some of us are not bound by that restriction … I never played GW1. If a particular experience drives what the concept should be, then it makes sense it’s Anet’s, not players.
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Is that what Anet thinks, or what players decide makes sense to them? Again, Anet determines and owns the concept of the class. What players decide/interpret/think has likely little to no influence on this. The only problem here is that players aren’t aligning what they think the class concept should to the class concept that Anet has created.
How the hell could anybody not see the connection guardians have with monks?
I don’t see how it’s relevant. Is that the connections and lore that Anet are using to create DH? I don’t think so. Does that lore exclude Rangers from having Druid? I don’t think so either.
Anet creates the lore and concepts they want; why should they be restricted to conform to something outside of GW2, even if it’s GW1?
Anyways, it’s clear you’re using a specific version of lore that doesn’t coincide with what Anet is using for the concept of the classes they design, so the discussion about how Druid relates to Guardians really doesn’t mean much. Just have to shrug your shoulders if people are hinging the demise of the Guardian/DH on technicalities of lore. It’s weak.
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The lore that Guardians follow is not determined by players; that is solely Anet’s playground. There is nothing indicating an elite healer spec should belong to Guardians or not belong to Rangers or any other class.
Actually, there is. As has been stated many time through this thread, guardians are the spiritual successors of monks. Rangers are a mainly martial profession that have never been known for being healers at all. ANet can make up any lore they want, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t going to be gaping holes in the lore they make and use.
Is that what Anet thinks, or what players decide makes sense to them? Again, Anet determines and owns the concept of the class. What players decide/interpret/think has likely little to no influence on this. The only problem here is that players aren’t aligning what they think the class concept should to the class concept that Anet has created.
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I’ve played plenty; enough to recognize the differences between ‘them’ and GW2 and how those differences will not result in Druid replacing Guardians in any element of this game for the reasons I’ve already outlined. They are two completely different styles of team support. It’s even less likely where no particular class plays a specific role in teaming; GW2 doesn’t have roles for classes to be replaced from to begin with.
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If those things don’t save you, go ahead and incorporate any of the other things vanilla Guardian has that does … and if there isn’t, then it’s not a problem with DH.
These sensational claims are tiresome. If you play a DH so you get melted by 10K Mes burst … I think that says more about you or the Guardian class in general than it does specifically about DH.
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It’s not odd, you’ve just chosen to see what you want to see and interpret as you see fit. I’m going to do the same, but with a positive twist:
I think his point was pretty obvious and I happen to agree with it. People think it’s compelling to say that Druid is going to replace Guardian because they think it’s a clever way to justify getting good ‘stuff’ for Guardian through fearmongering. Some of us see right through that sort of nonsense because we know the difference between heals and other forms of defense; it’s important to recognize that value. Guardian isn’t replaced anytime soon for any content by any elite spec.
I’m not saying they will or will not get replaced by any class. Yet I’m not sure because I do not know how things will be in HoT, and how other support classes like Chrono. will work with the other classes.
How can you be sure that they will not get replaced by anything else? Oh- wait, you can’t.
but I do know that vanilla GW2 isn’t going to change
Let us actually play the game first, then you can cry about which spec is useless and which is not.
It’s ridiculous to think that a whole class is going to be replaced by another because of an elite spec, regardless of what parts of the game are changing or not. I don’t need to play anything to know that because it’s common sense.
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You have problems and that is all I need to say. Apparently you cannot read within the lines and understand what I am getting at.
I get what you’re talking about. I don’t see the relevance about you hammering on changes you didn’t like in the past and how that relates to the proposed patch which is the topic of this thread. Let me ask you a more direct question to get you ‘into’ the topic:
Do you like the shield changes? Why or why not?
Do you think the FWM CD change is reasonable?
Here is your opportunity to contribute.
^^ The Aegis addition is a change and it’s inline with what you have outlined; it provides a method to block on a very reasonable cooldown. In addition, it’s strongly supported by our traits. What’s not to like?
Will people be converts from focus? I don’t think so because frankly, focus is probably too strong to abandon. I’m surprised it hasn’t gotten knocked down a little.
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It’s not odd, you’ve just chosen to see what you want to see and interpret as you see fit. I’m going to do the same, but with a positive twist:
I think his point was pretty obvious and I happen to agree with it. People think it’s compelling to say that Druid is going to replace Guardian because they think it’s a clever way to justify getting good ‘stuff’ for Guardian through fearmongering. Some of us see right through that sort of nonsense because we know the difference between heals and other forms of defense; it’s important to recognize that value. Guardian isn’t replaced anytime soon for any content by any elite spec.
I’m not saying they will or will not get replaced by any class. Yet I’m not sure because I do not know how things will be in HoT, and how other support classes like Chrono. will work with the other classes.
How can you be sure that they will not get replaced by anything else? Oh- wait, you can’t.
You’re right; I don’t have a crystal ball but I do know that vanilla GW2 isn’t going to change and Guardians have a very established position there. How likely do I think Guardian is going to be replaced in GW2 vanilla? Not at all. I just don’t see anything in the new elites that makes me believe it’s going to happen. In fact, most of the elites have a strong PVP flavour to them … so I think it will have almost no chance of replacing Guardians at all in HoT either. I’m also pretty confident that Anet isn’t dumb enough to sink their own game by doing that either. I’m also pretty sure players won’t just abandon their characters either, even if they aren’t ‘optimal’.
There are so many factors that I would say without a doubt, Guardians are not going to become irrelevant because of ONE elite spec, no more so than they are now by any of the other 7 classes that already exist. The idea they would be is ludicrous.
I don’t get the relevance really; why would anyone expect DH to be any good for PVE in the first place? Was there ever any doubt that it had a heavy flavour as a PVP spec? I don’t think a lack of endorsement by Obal indicates anything other than we already have an optimal DPS spec for PVE.
It’s not odd, you’ve just chosen to see what you want to see and interpret as you see fit. I’m going to do the same, but with a positive twist:
I think his point was pretty obvious and I happen to agree with it. People think it’s compelling to say that Druid is going to replace Guardian because they think it’s a clever way to justify getting good ‘stuff’ for Guardian through fearmongering. Some of us see right through that sort of nonsense because we know the difference between heals and other forms of defense; it’s important to recognize that value. Guardian isn’t replaced anytime soon for any content by any elite spec.
On the contrary, this dude is just going from thread to thread, jibber jabbering about how druids can only heal and do nothing else.
Maybe he is or isn’t, I don’t know, but I do know that’s not the point he’s trying to make with the post in THIS thread.
Don’t expect much from the Dragonhunter. If you want to play something similar to the Guardian playstyle (or at least what it was meant to be), pick up either a Revenant or a Druid Ranger. You’re far less likely to be disappointed.
Druid Ranger isn’t a Guardian play style… Druids are basically a healing plant that occasionally offers CC. Guardians will protect you while also making sure you mitigate damages via Blinds/Blocks/Stability/Stun breakers while occasionally improves party damages through Quickness + Might stacks.
Why don’t you just admit that you are kitten because druids could replace support guards depending on how the game changes instead of making a fool of yourself in every post? Yeah, they are only healing plants that cant do anything else. .. You know, like spotter frost spirit team fury team swiftness team might glyph of empowerment etc etc…
OK, wait a minute here. He should stop making a fool of himself by admitting he’s wrong, based on YOUR suspicions that Guardians are being replaced by Druids in game content that we haven’t even begun to experience yet (HoT) or game content we have massive amounts of experience with where healbots aren’t necessary? That’s rich.
He’s right … Druids aren’t Guardian playstyle, REGARDLESS of whatever content you want to place them in. Vanilla GW2 isn’t changing and Guardians don’t have ‘Druid-like’ playstyle in that content. In fact, Druids are going to be completely useless in vanilla. If you think Guardians are replaced by this healbot elite, you got tunnel vision.
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I agree … I’m wondering if this is just an ‘leftover’ from development that never got finished and they just put a bandaid on it; everything is just sitting there waiting for a symbol effect to be put on it.
This profession is officially dead, this is no exaggeration, with the upcoming elite specs Guardians are now 100% worthless.
These are all very reasonable changes. We got shield buffs that’s we have been asking for forever and anyone with their head in the right place can see why FMW is getting increased CD. How anyone can see fit to QQ about this … must be wanting to sabotage any attempt Anet has to changing the class.
Granted … if they didn’t tell us ALL the changes that will happen, we might see some things that aren’t as reasonable but we can only wait until that happens to complain.
Because it was an unjustified nerf for pvp. Same goes for the virtue range reduction. Glacial heart nerf. The things that make us truly unique and have something going for us which make us strong they nerf. Dodge roll heals were nerfed and reverted. Now save yourself. Purity was nerfed rofl…..unwarranted nerfs 24/7 to guardian is tiresome. Then people like you think that laughable change to shield is a buff? Pls stop trolling
None of those things are part of THIS balance patch. I get you want to deflect the conversation from the good changes that are happening in this patch to the things you think that are bad that aren’t in this balance patch. When your axe is THAT big, everything looks like a grindstone I guess.
Yet, that doesn’t diminish the fact that these changes we are getting in this patch are not unjustified and even GOOD changes.
I think the best part of your post is when you accuse me of trolling, even though you don’t have anything to say related to the specific changes of this patch; the topic of the thread. You just want to rehash past changes you don’t like because angry … so on topic. GG.
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If you choose Guardian because you think you’ll do more healing than class A B C… .. Then you misunderstood what the Guardian is.
We prevent X amount of damage while, as a bonus, also aiding in damage output.
We’ll still grab that sword and enter battle by your side… better yet… we’ll be front line!!!We Are Not not going to put a bandaid on you and say that things are going to be better – The Druid
- If people are looking for a Healer Class, Druid is your calling.
- If people are looking for a class that’ll offer “support” while also deal damage, Guardian or Dragonhunter is your calling. It isn’t hard to wrap your head around – Guardian isn’t the ‘Kings of Support!’ class.
I have no issues with another profession offering more heal than I do. However, I DO have issues with a class mitigating more damages then me!
Trying to justify why guaridans elite should not resemble Druids is beyond idiocracy. As people have mentioned guardian has certain lore to it and skills that are meant directly for healing. Yet they bring out a healer elite spec on another class? Why?
It’s like giving guardians a juggernaut elite and then giving warriors a hesl specialization. Makes no sense at all.
The lore that Guardians follow is not determined by players; that is solely Anet’s playground. There is nothing indicating an elite healer spec should belong to Guardians or not belong to Rangers or any other class. Anet determines what is appropriate as an elite spec and why. In fact, Anet has already answered you question Why we weren’t the recipient of a strong healing spec:
They already told us that these elite specs are something that strays from the current classes in terms of gameplay. Therefore, it makes MUCH sense that Guardians aren’t getting THE healing elite spec that people normally associate with a paladin-like class.
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Maybe that’s not the intention, but it can carry if it needs to. We have decades of Trinity MMO’s to prove it.
The issue isn’t with the Druid itself … it’s with the way it’s healing is extreme compared to other classes.
Put it another way … if the amount that a Druid heals are going to be the normal, necessary amount for raiding or doing HoT content, then this will be the first must-have CLASS this game has ever had to do content. That’s a massive departure from the concept that exists now and frankly, a huge disappointment for me.
If other classes exhibited the same ability to heal as much as Druid does, there wouldn’t be a problem here. I’m not sure they do, unless of course you SPECIFICALLY trait/gear for healing, which means you don’t compete well with Druid. I’ve made some assumptions in saying these things but I don’t think I’m all that far off.
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I don’t understand why a well rounded, versatile class is all the sudden less useful because the game has a healbot option … if anything, the healbot is the least useful. If I was looking forward to Druid, I would have been very disappointed … it’s a class you play if you team with scrubs. Why that excites anyone, I have no idea.
The only real issue I have with traits is Retalitory Subconscious … a situational buff to a secondary boon from a secondary stat as a GM trait. There are some other minor issues in traits, but that’s the most pressing one for me.
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This profession is officially dead, this is no exaggeration, with the upcoming elite specs Guardians are now 100% worthless.
These are all very reasonable changes. We got shield buffs that’s we have been asking for forever and anyone with their head in the right place can see why FMW is getting increased CD. How anyone can see fit to QQ about this … must be wanting to sabotage any attempt Anet has to changing the class.
Granted … if they didn’t tell us ALL the changes that will happen, we might see some things that aren’t as reasonable but we can only wait until that happens to complain.
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^^ I read it and it doesn’t make any sense IMO.
So change traps to marks which will MAKE them visible, then create a GM trait to make them invisible. … Because that’s somehow BETTER than having traps that are ALREADY invisible without a GM trait.
Um, no.
Marks are far superior. The only advantage Traps have is them being invisible, which is only useful in PVP, that is why i suggested making a trait making them invisible for those PVP players.
Marks are ground target-able, blast radius, instant effect, short cooldown, condi heavy skills that thematically fit this elite spec better.
Superiority isn’t a compelling argument to do what you are suggesting and I don’t think it’s as thematically fitting as you claim it would be.
^^ I read it and it doesn’t make any sense IMO.
So change traps to marks which will MAKE them visible, then create a GM trait to make them invisible. … Because that’s somehow BETTER than having traps that are ALREADY invisible without a GM trait.
Um, no.
This thread has zero compelling arguments to change anything, including the flood of exclamation points.
I don’t get why damage output is an issue anyways … reminds us again how bad our damage is compared to other classes? Oh right.
Traps are not necessarily for ranged or non ranged class; they work in either case. At this point, DH delivers more ranged capability to the Guardian profession via LBow and Scepter will always be a ranged alternative, so to claim they don’t ‘fit’ the elite spec because of a “profession is ranged or non-ranged” bias doesn’t hold any water. DH MAKES the Guardian a profession an even more capable ranged class without restricting it from being melee if it wants as well.
Furthermore, if part of your point is that symbols are unique to Guardian so it makes sense to propose they remove traps to do symbols, or make traps more like symbols, then you don’t even understand the concept to what an elite spec is supposed to be for a profession in the first place.
Traps aren’t going away or turning into symbols less than one month to release date. That makes no sense.
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Traps are not bad by design. People have suggested ideas that maintain the concept and if you want any ideas you have to be taken seriously by the devs that are constrained by their own concepts, you should as well.
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Traps are not ‘fixed’ by making them into not-traps.
Holding off because frankly, It’s not clear what gear will be optimal on Rev yet.
They just need a metric kittenload of health, same as all the other AI.
If they wanted them to not die by giving them a ‘metric kittenload of health’, they would have just made them immune like SW’s used to be. Obviously that’s not their intent and therefore, not a very realistic suggestion you have there.
How do you know what their uptime in a fight will be in the first place to make a sensible claim?
Granted, if they are anything like SW’s, they will just get bursted by AoE but that’s not really the point here. You don’t even know if this is a problem yet.
We know because turrets have existed for 3 years and these are just as squishy, except without even a -33% incoming damage trait. And you can’t place them outside of melee range to even try to protect them since they follow you around (except Shredder of course, but that’s going to be placed right in the thick of battle most of the time anyways).
We do know this is a problem. Anyone who has spent a significant amount of time on the Engineer knew the instant the Bulwark Gyro HP was deduced that this was turrets all over again.
What I’m disappointed by is Irenio even said they have a lot of health when he started talking about them because he knows they need to stay alive, he obviously knows why people don’t like turrets. He suggested as much during the POI. Then why in the world do gyros have the same amount of health?
There is a fine line here; obvious Anet doesn’t want them perma the whole 15 seconds if you’re not careful but they don’t want them dropping at a sneeze either. There will be no reasonable compromise to the health issue. That’s already been tried on SW’s.
Alternative solutions are necessary; for instance, a benefit to them being attacked directly. The question isn’t about how to make them survive, and that’s where the thread misses the mark. They simply need a fuller purpose.
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That’s the whole point for elite specs… they aren’t supposed to feel like you’re playing vanilla profession. To say it has little synergy with the base class is a good think if you think about it; the DH is already restrictive enough without excluding other traitlines because of ‘synergy’.
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I guess the policy is use your block function. Bad behaviour is just tolerated.
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How do you know what their uptime in a fight will be in the first place to make a sensible claim?
Granted, if they are anything like SW’s, they will just get bursted by AoE but that’s not really the point here. You don’t even know if this is a problem yet.
Why can’t someone be the dev to 3 classes? I doubt any of us know what the workload is involved with that and also, we don’t know how those dev teams are structured and can’t assume he’s the ONLY one working on those 3 classes; I don’t think over-extension is the culprit here.
You actually did nail it though … how do you make an elite spec without being OP’ed on a class that’s already where is should be for balance? You’re seeing it. Vanilla is already quite good. The complaints here don’t factor in what the target concept is.
For example: because if you like 1 class mechanic like thieves and you have guardians too for balance you just can’t be objective enough about them.
That’s why there is peer review and teamsm which I’m certain Anet does.
Why can’t someone be the dev to 3 classes? I doubt any of us know what the workload is involved with that and also, we don’t know how those dev teams are structured and can’t assume he’s the ONLY one working on those 3 classes; I don’t think over-extension is the culprit here.
You actually did nail it though … how do you make an elite spec without being OP’ed on a class that’s already where is should be for balance? You’re seeing it. Vanilla is already quite good. The complaints here don’t factor in what the target concept is.
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Yes but I was just concerned that the “extra” trait line that specializations get may be overpowered.
i was also thinking that making separate characters for each class would be better because the meta may result in them using different equipment/runes/stats etc.
“down the road” may mean anything between 1 and 3 years with the way Arenanet is going these days. I am also worried that Arenanet may deliberately make specialized classes more powerful to encourage people to buy the expansion.
If you’re concerned about that, just check out almost every profession’s forum. Elite specs simply offer a different way to play, not additional OP’ed options.
Um, no one is hyping them here … at least I wasn’t. Let me put it another way:
Anet is downplaying the resemblance between the two because they know SW’s are not good and they want people to think drones will be good.
While those are differences, they are pretty academic:
1. SW"s have traits too, decent ones at that. They don’t need a trait line dedicated to them to work as well as Drones do.
2. SW’s also fill niche roles and fill defensive and offensive roles
I’m not trying to be argumentative here but this illustrates a pretty good point. SW’s and drones have more in common than Anet wants us to believe and the reason … because they don’t want to admit SW’s are pretty fail when they shouldn’t be.
well…sad thing that u all miss the point and more focusing om my grammar…
The sad part is that you don’t understand why it’s important and how it relates to people’s inability to read your post. I honestly tried and got lost in your lack of punctuation and proper structure; it matters. If you have a point, you’ve buried it. Please rewrite that if you have something worthwhile to say.
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These standard FT builds just got a significant offensive boost with Scrapper traits. Can’t wait to try Mass Momentum and condition clearing drone with this.
I have to laugh that ANet specified Drones aren’t like SW"s … but they are … they have health, they last a fixed duration, they follow you around, you can command some of them.
Can anyone explain the part that doesn’t make them like SW"s? I don’t see it.
Why do they need to get rid of traps to make spirit weapons better?
These changes only confirm my suspicions; DH is a ranged spec and it’s intent is to enhance that kind of play. So many comments would not exist here if people could wrap their heads around that fact.
your suspicions are that an elite spec getting a longbow is a ranged spec?
your intellect fascinates me.
It should because many people haven’t even gotten that far.
But all kidding aside, it seems that it wasn’t clear to people this was intended with all the calls for various elements not aligned to that concept. There should be no question now with the proposed additional crippling effects, etc…
Those changes are really good but I don’t get the shortened duration of traps … I guess the 1 second placement was too much of a PVP tell?
I never understood why MMO’s are supposed bear the burden of players being disconnected and why it should factor into game design. Is it really such a significant issue that game devs should think of ways to ensure DC’s are rewarded in some way?
These changes only confirm my suspicions; DH is a ranged spec and it’s intent is to enhance that kind of play. So many comments would not exist here if people could wrap their heads around that fact.
So … i guess we will find out how to fuel them or do we know that already?