Poor design choice or not, DH isn’t going away or changing into something significantly different in concept than what it is now. Any feedback that Anet gets needs to recognize this fact. Simply not liking it is certainly not a very compelling argument for changing anything so …
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I speculate drones will be relabeled Spirit weapons and work just like SW’s. If you play a Guardian, you know how good SW’s are. I don’t wish this waste of a skill category on any class but that’s exactly what drones look like in that image. I doubt they will act like minions because they don’t ‘live’.
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True but I don’t see how either of those fit in with DH concept so I still stand by that statement. This isn’t hard to figure out. DH is a ranged concept for Guardians. It’s going to have traits that encourage ranged play. That’s not to say it doesn’t have traits that could be useful in melee but it’s not going to go out of it’s way to ensure melee is included at the expense of supporting and rewarding ranged play. That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Frustrations are due to a lack of understanding and that’s indicative of most hate posts. It’s why you don’t understand that a melee-focused trait doesn’t work in DH or how Anet interacts with players for feedback or even what feedback is relevant.
I’m going to call it now: Those flying things are going to have Spirit Weapon mechanics … and suck like SW’s do.
I guess you missed the key adjective ‘some’ when I made my statement. You’re a smart guy … don’t go there, don’t sink your thread … plenty of people out there will do it for you. You push your idea; you’re likely one of the few around who ‘get it’.
I don’t get this “being in a good spot” argument that I hear most of the time, would someone care to explain ?
No problem.
Anet management says we are in a ‘good spot’. Some people think that means something it doesn’t, so they use it mockingly whenever possible. The reality is that Anet means “Guardian profession is where we want it to be in terms of performance”.
People are saying that this trait is a bad idea, and that actually means something. It doesn’t matter what Anet thinks, because while they can definitely choose to keep it in the game if they really want to, that doesn’t make it objectively right.
It’s not good when people don’t recognize the authority … it ONLY matters what Anet thinks. If people don’t get that, then they don’t understand the framework and approach they need to take to influence change. That’s a little bit academic so I’m sure that will mean little to people who simply want to see DH go away, but it’s how this works.
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You’re right, we did have that … and they changed it because it didn’t fit with concept they wanted for the class. It’s the same reason that this one is not likely to change and even less likely to change to something that a melee Guardian can benefit from; DH spec is focused on ranged abilities. In addition, there are already lots of other traits that melee weapons benefit from, there are no need for more. If anything, we could use MORE traits to flavour up DH, not less.
I agree that Pure isn’t very interesting but it’s intent is clear, which makes me think there was some thought put into what it should do. It’s certainly not going to change to a trait that has little to do with DH as a spec. In otherwords, if people aren’t suggesting ideas that benefit ranged play, you’re not paying attention.
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I’m talking about pve here.
From the jist of the thread, it’s clear you’re not excluding open world in your considerations and may even be focused on it. I’m sure that the meta theorycrafters have already figured out if any aspect Reaper is worthwhile for dungeons and it seems you already have people telling you how to play in team situations, so I will leave that consideration out of my comments.
Shouts may be useful in OW since they have a lower cooldown and still apply useful damage and conditions to trash mobs. Frankly, very little about this elite spec appeals to OW content, especially since Minions have gotten a significant fix for responsiveness. I don’t think any build using Reaper elements competes with the currently good OW builds.
So, what existing specs can maintain range?
I don’t think there are any … but I think skills maintaining a ranged position from your target would be broken anyways. But for the time you can stay ranged, this trait rewards you for doing that in the few ways available to you.
This is an absolutely ridiculous suggestion. Removing words does not prevent what is happening ingame.
The DH is setup for that already: You got the knockback trait for LB and we have a immobilize on Scepter. There are also other tools we have to assist in maintaining range as well, including the very infrequently considered ‘teamwork’ aspect of the game which is especially important if you want to stay ranged. Nobody is just going to let you stay at range and it would be unreasonable to expect a long line of skills that would ensure you could.
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That trait isn’t limited to LB IIRC. If it was a 10% ONLY on LB, then I would agree that it doesn’t make sense as a minor. It also has a range req … so adding it as baseline to LB changes it’s flavour as well. The intent is pretty clear for this trait actually … the concept for ranged isn’t just to camped ranged weapons, it’s to camp AT range. This trait rewards you for maintaining your range.
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A 10% damage increase over 600 range only works with LB and Scepter, essentially its a LB trait since its in DH, but what is the point of that as a minor trait? Its always taken and totally useless for melee guards.
Why not just put +10% damage to LB as a baseline, its essentially the same thing. Then a good GM minor could take its place.
It just seems like a pointless, redundant trait.
Seems to me you answered your own question… it’s a trait to give you more damage on LB. It’s not on Baseline because Anet want to provide choices, not just a high damage ranged weapon.
So because more than one of those elements exist in a single elite spec, that makes them poor design?
That makes no sense. You can make that SAME argument by picking ANY other two elements and saying the same thing for any other class. I get you think it’s poor but comparisons to other classes aren’t relevant here to prove whatever point you have; DH wasn’t designed with Ranger as a baseline; the DH baseline is Guardian. Unlike yourself, I can actually see good reasons why we don’t get Runspeed, short cast LB skills or ground target traps, but that’s neither here nor their because it’s irrelevant if someone does or doesn’t see why.
Frankly, I don’t get any of the comparisons to other classes at all. It’s a little ridiculous actually; it’s not how Devs design classes in any MMO so why is it the default argument when class tools are in question?
The answer here is actually quite evident. If you think DH is just a poor man’s Ranger, then exercise your choice and play Ranger … or don’t play Ranger OR DH. At this point, it make zero sense to dispute if traps are bad or LB is the wrong weapon for Guardian elite … it’s a thing. Right now, the focus isn’t to try to convince people it’s bad .. .it’s trying to convince people how it should be better.
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That fact that they don’t have a 25% movement speed passive trait and their bow skills root you in place when you use them and you have traps that drop at your feet just screams poor design.
I don’t see why any of that screams poor design … MANY of those elements already existed in the game for other classes and aren’t regarded as ‘poor design’ in those cases.
It only screams poor design because you think that label warrants change since you want a 25% movement speed buff (which we have been told NO already), completely mobile LBow weapon skills (which is not necessary as a ranged weapon) and ranged traps (which aren’t a ‘thing’ for any trap class).
Here is my issue with the event; It’s so short in duration, though drawn out because of the periodic nature of the events, that I don’t feel I would be able to accomplish much with what little time I could dedicate to it. Therefore, why should I bother to participate? You’re game targets casual play? THIS event seems to go out of the way to miss that target.
It’s really not about any skills or tricks that Guardians have that Rev’s don’t and vice versa. It really just comes down to having people that want to continually be successful with playing Guardian, no matter what the content is they do it with.
You think Guardian stinks because Rev is better? Fine, go play Rev. Who cares? It doesn’t matter; Skills that Rev’s have or don’t does not affect the skills that Guardian has or doesn’t. I’m still going to take my builds and still do the content that I like doing with those builds. The whole discussion is irrelevant unless your some minmaxing ‘play the best’ kind of gamer and that’s not very relevant in this game.
Vets drop better loot … bring them on.
Even in PVP … meta will change ALOT but fundamental roles will still be there. Guardians still have roles there to play. Regardless of game element, Guardians have much to offer. Our skills cover lots of ground.
^^ Don’t worry, you are wrong. Nothing has made Guardian class irrelevant. If HoT is the challenging content Anet says it will be, people won’t shy away from it.
It felt alot like playing Ranger GS but the utility from the other skills was really good. It remains to see what I can give up from my current setup and get from Reaper traits. I think if I could get more use from chill bombing mobs in PVE, I would take the full plunge from main handing dagger. Just way too much flexibility gotten from pairing up 1H weapons to go to GS I think.
I like the part where after 3 years of fun, successful gaming without the trinity, the conclusion is that we NEED it. ><
The only reason to desire a trinity in this game is to make me leave it, which will please a good number of people.
Uh, no, traps are selfish because they’re essentially just there to discourage an advance on you. It does kitten all for your allies; it has nothing to do with a PvE mentality. Contrast them with consecrations.
I think that’s an inaccurate statement. They are selfish because they don’t offer anything to your allies? I think someone needs to read what they do again. Discouraging advance on you isn’t as selfish a tactic as it sounds.
Dragon’s Maw is okay if one’s opponent is out of stability, but I don’t believe it’s worth taking over any of the other elites (except perhaps Signet of Courage).
Most of the traps are persistent effects so dodging out of them won’t render them completely useless, but the traps themselves aren’t all that impressive, and they don’t offer any support or cleansing.
This is true; they don’t offer as much support or cleansing as other skills; they aren’t supposed to. It’s exactly what we were to expect since we were told LONG ago that the elite specs and their tools were going to give us a completely different way to play each profession. If anyone thought that meant MORE or even ANY support and cleansing on a Guardian, they weren’t paying much attention.
There is no ‘finally’ as use for traps; that’s EXACTLY how traps are supposed to be used from the get go. The only ‘finally’ here is that there is finally people figuring out how to use them effectively instead of QQing about how bad they are.
No offense bro but seems to me like you were playing complete scrubs
Only bads will talk into your weak kitten traps. If i see you lay a trap i would simply DODGE INTO IT.
Ya you kinda have to have them there before hand, Bluntly standing right on top of your traps with a big red flag that says “TRAPS HERE” doesn’t always work. But that’s the point of traps. You put them where people don’t expect them. Plenty of good players walked into them. And I know they were good players because they managed to get out of them and high tail it before I could wipe the floor with them.
IMA REPEAT THIS IN CAPS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. TRAPS ARE NOT WELLS. THEY ARE A DEFENSIVE UTILITY. YOU HAVE THEM PLACED BEFORE HAND LIKE A SMART PERSON. PLEASE PRACTICE WITH THEM. THEY ARE NOT THE BEST FOR 1V1 OFFENSE. THEY ARE GOOD FOR TEAMFIGHTS. THEY ARE GREAT FOR DEFENSE. THANK YOU THAT IS ALL
They’re still bad, because you have no stability if you go full traps, it’s better to just go anything else because you’re actually useful for others and not selfish…
I see how some PVE meta mentality has poisoned PVP minds now. “If you don’t play THIS way, you’re selfish!!!” Don’t embarrass yourself by doing that.
If you don’t have stability if you go full traps, don’t make garbage builds that have full traps. Traps aren’t bad because you can think of extreme ways to make builds with them that lack this or that.
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Well alot of people try placing the traps AFTER the fights already started but BEFORE the first attack is swung. So they basicly set it infront of the person and go “HAHA YOU CANNOT DODGE” and the persons lke “Yeah im just gona dodge that”
…Its really not the best way to use traps
Yes true … so really the argument is traps are bad because people don’t use them properly.
I don’t know whether you are delusional, playing devils advocate, or have this innate dislike for the guardian class.
Traps are a joke because you can counter them by evading, end of story.
Maybe I’ve missed something … How do you evade something you can’t see? Being serious here. Do you just randomly evade everywhere and hope you just get lucky? is the argument that if you can randomly evade a trap you can’t see, they are bad? Does that mean any other effect you can evade is bad as well? Does that make every weapon skill that has a tell even worse? See how your simple assessment of traps makes no sense?
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Pet’s aren’t that good anyways unless there are some ways to tell them what to do. Frankly, we have ‘pets’ through SW … so if we want pets, I would suggest that route.
He already said who walks into traps. Some of your examples don’t make sense … For example, a thief isn’t going to shadowstep around a trap they can’t see and just because Mesmers have clones and Engi’s have turrets doesn’t mean they avoid traps either.
I mean, go ahead and hate on traps, but you’re argue who’s affected by traps with someone who had success using them? That’s obtuse. I urge people to make some sense if they are going to dispute things that are wrong with traps. Traps aren’t going away, so you’re approach should be how to make them better, not make them irrelevant. If you can’t do that, you post means nothing.
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Do i not keep saying i am working on part II… What do i keep saying…
Ohhhh you’re ignoring what i say because you are trolling… oh man… you got me good there…
No, I’m not trolling. I want to see the complete thesis written out like everyone else does here. You’re missing a lot of information, and you refuse to acknowledge anything that pokes holes in your hypothesis, even out right insulting these people. This is bad science. You’re not even willing to show us actual math that doesn’t rely on assumptions. There are no assumptions in math, and your math is full of them.
I’m not arguing in favour or against what Nemesist is saying here BUT … his video demonstrates his approach to MEASURING DPS (not calculating it; that’s a different thing). If his goal was to correlate some damage model to what happens ingame, then what you are asking for makes sense.
In this case, it does not. He’s simply comparing damage for various scenarios with a practical, empirical method and it’s MUCH more applicable and relevant to illustrating his points than some math that you’re insisting is missing. Dismissing what he’s demonstrating because you don’t think it’s theoretically rigorous enough is nonsense. It’s not garbage science either because there are LOTS of things done empirically for things that aren’t well understood to create practical uses for them.
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Where exactly is this exploit being used that you consider it the only thing holding necros back from being generally accepted as meta? Since you know, you’d have to compare the non-icebow dps of every other class to necros before deciding whether or not it was the best choice for the available dps slots.
Actually, the only thing that has put us in this stupid discriminating situation, is not the lack of offensive buffs, or the not so good dps, nor the linecasting icebow.
It’s the lack of a damage recount tool.
In all my years in wow i never saw such discrimination against a class. Why? because you had Recount to separate the real damage dealers vs the rest.
That kind of tool would be death for any in class in this game that wasn’t #1 because lacking trinity. The actual problem is WoW-type players who think that’s how performance is measured.
If you look past the mistakes, which are just academic inconsistencies, you see there is a higher level message here and I think that’s why he uses such aggressive language in the video. Unfortunately, he’s got to play this numbers game to demonstrate his point because it’s the only thing that gets through to people.
Sure, Ice Bow needs the nerf, but if it’s not ice bow, then it’s something else that’s pushing people towards the best DPS. Problem I think is that people didn’t anticipate this push going outside profession levels … but eventually it will. Why do you think there are professions less and less accepted in teams? It’s the evolution of the meta from profession to the team level. It’s gonna bite the current ‘profession level meta pushers’ in the kitten , unless of course they are playing the right ‘meta professions’ … oh look, we are in the Necro forums; you guys already KNOW this is affecting the game.
When raids come in … wow. Bottomline … if you ever pushed meta on someone, you’re part of the problem.
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That’s right and we have a trading system. If you’re whole point was just to type ‘LOL’, I guess you made it because frankly, I don’t get what you’re trying to say. I was clear.
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There is a trade system … the TP. It exists so you don’t get scammed.
You have a signature that says “anet, please stop treating players like idiots” and then say stuff like players will be scammed. Lol
I don’t get the LOLZ here … Anet’s got a system for players to safely trade. The link in my signature is something entirely different.
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or i only know that after using a build – and my gamestyle – for 2 years – ANET did this big change on the patch – ruining totally my gamestyle -
Yes, but that in no way makes the Elixer Gun kit destroyed. It just means you’re not able to adapt to changes … GOOD ones.
There is a trade system … the TP. It exists so you don’t get scammed.
Say what u will, as of the writing of this topic dragonkitten is complete garbage…
Good thing you don’t have to use it then.
I agree. There is no reason to not add dueling and mounts other than, “I don’t want it, so I absolutely don’t want others to have it ever.”
There are lots of reasons.
I don’t get the excitement here. No casual is going to step up because I don’t even think raids (based on what I hear about how they will work) will be something most casual players will give a care about.
While I’m happy for people for whom the game didn’t deliver the difficulty that will now happen for raids, it’s a little dumb to thumb your nose at casuals because of it.
Did they deliberately and in full knowledge take the instance and complete the path ignoring the wishes of the lfg poster? Thats griefing him!!!! Which falls under LFG abuse, and if anet decides to ban for that offense, then it can be bannable.
Was it behaviour that can be reported and punished? Yes. Will anet prioritize it over other things? Idk, report it and find out.
I’m not discouraging reporting the behaviour but I think it’s safe to say many of us have played MMO’s for a few years … if you have, you have a pretty good idea of what’s going to happen here.
I don’t get all the hate for the change to Virtues on this trait. It’s actually in a trait line I use now. Before, it was in … Valour.
Not many skills do much when interrupted.
There’s a time and place for every skill, especially this one. I like to tag thieves/mes with it when I think they’re gonna stealth.
Getting interrupted is many times enough of a punishment in and of itself especially against players who will chain damage afterwards.
Also, the time and place for a 2 skill on a weaponset should be pretty much off cooldown. I look at life siphon as something you don’t want to be casting that often, which is contrary to how it should be.
A skill getting interrupted is NOT a motivation to make a skill better though … because that’s the POINT of interruption.
I disagree completely, if this skill was harder to interrupt I might consider using it as part of my rotation instead of once every 2 minutes when the perfect scenario presents itself. Currently, I’m almost always better off using the dagger auto, or something else. The 2 skill on a weapon should be something with ample use that excels in multiple situations and that certainly isn’t the case with this skill which offers bad dps and mediocre easily counterable hps. If you disagree, or can’t see that a skill with a 4 second total cast time that heals for ~900 health per second and does ~w700 damage per second with cele is bad then winning this argument will be beyond me.
I only disagree it shouldn’t be changed because it’s interruptible, which is based on PVP considerations only. In otherwords, I don’t think it needs to change just to become more useful in PVP. Even at 2 seconds casting time, people would QQ about how bad it would be.
Regardless, I think the whole thread sort of misses the point anyways; dagger AA is melee and that’s reflected by the damage it does. I think there is no debate the damage is good there. Increasing it’s range makes no sense and could even be considered better than it should be.
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I don’t see how it’s bannable; it’s not exploiting the game and while it’s a terrible thing to do to someone, they didn’t abuse you verbally or kick you or anything like that; you just didn’t get paid. I don’t know what your claim for a punishment should be. Nothing really stops it but I don’t think anything actually should; it’s not an in-game supported way for you to make money, just like selling through mail isn’t either.
It’s strange when people complain about stuff that encourages but doesn’t prevent them from playing a game they like.
Not many skills do much when interrupted.
There’s a time and place for every skill, especially this one. I like to tag thieves/mes with it when I think they’re gonna stealth.
Getting interrupted is many times enough of a punishment in and of itself especially against players who will chain damage afterwards.
Also, the time and place for a 2 skill on a weaponset should be pretty much off cooldown. I look at life siphon as something you don’t want to be casting that often, which is contrary to how it should be.
The fact remains that Dagger 2 needs no attention, even if it can be interrupted, like most other skills. Daggers feel like they don’t need love. I also don’t think it’s unreasonable that daggers are the only melee that necros have unlike the OP. That doesn’t indicate a deficiency with the class.
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Path selling is not forbidden, but path selling is not supported by GMs. Period. Feel lucky they don’t ban it entirely.
It’s still griefing whether OP was selling or not:
if you were in a normal dungeon party, had some group members leave, posted on LFG for replacements, and promptly had 3 people steal your instance, that’s griefing. This is no different. That the OP was selling is irrelevant.
From what I can gather from the OP, he wasn’t kicked. He was simply not paid once the dungeon was finished. I’ve played enough MMO’s to know if a player isn’t exploiting the game, they don’t tend to get banned for this sort of thing, especially if the game isn’t designed to support it. It’s crap that people get treated poorly but that’s not a bannable offense.
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Any chance the dev’s will nerf the difficulty so it’s more difficult throughout the whole game?
I doubt it, since that seems to be the market Anet want to appeal to. Frankly, lots of games are easy to level in now, because for some reason, people think the end game is more interesting.