Yes, that’s why you have the choice to not use it. Working as intended. Almost all the negative feedback I see for DH seems to start with the premise it’s suppose to be better or players must find a way to incorporate it into their game. Not true.
And also I do want a different way of playing Guardian (or at least a different variation of one of our current builds), but it has to be one that isn’t objectively worse than what we already have. Neither of those are going to be provided by the Dragonhunter.
I also don’t believe it will be better than current builds considering Anet think they have the class where they want it for balance.
On the other hand, I don’t think anyone has enough information to objectively say how DH will perform at release and relative to all the other elites and vanilla professions. Frankly, I think you’re just hating because you dislike the whole concept. I think that’s unreasonable.
Nope not really instant virtues provide the guardian with better active defenses which the DH lacks, meanwhile all channeled DH virtues aren’t meaningful enough to justify the channel with the exception of F3 in WvW or an intense group fight. Trueshot is inferior to scepter/torch since it restricts movement preventing DH from delivering decent damage while chasing that base guardian can do better. Traps are OK for wvw with trapper runes but meditation will still be the staple for pvp and shouts/consecrations for pve. So what does DH bring to guard? A better ranged AA than scepter (maybe after these changes that Karl and the other Dev announced), unreliable access to cripple, a slow, a reveal, and more vulnerability.
And if that makes it to live, then you would have a point. WE aren’t live, we haven’t had the opportunity to play it’s final version.
And also I do want a different way of playing Guardian (or at least a different variation of one of our current builds), but it has to be one that isn’t objectively worse than what we already have. Neither of those are going to be provided by the Dragonhunter.
I also don’t believe it will be better than current builds considering Anet think they have the class where they want it for balance.
On the other hand, I don’t think anyone has enough information to objectively say how DH will perform at release and relative to all the other elites and vanilla professions. Frankly, I think you’re just hating because you dislike the whole concept. I think that’s unreasonable.
I’m not a number cruncher so I can’t tell you if Mace DPS > Hammer DPS. I doubt the numbers people could either … they aren’t so much about those kinds of comparisons as they are figuring out the best builds for dungeons.
Considering that 90% of all meta threads are started by Non-Meta players who are complaining and asking for game changes to turn this game into a Trinity and make them needed, through new game mechanics such as brokenglasses healing power change or the “Hitpoints are outdated” thread in general discussion, I think that would have been self explanatory.
I think the association between those things and not liking meta isn’t as self explanatory as you claim … for the most part, people that don’t like meta because they feel it’s something they are forced into; I think people would be MUCH more accepting of it if the game allowed an easier way for them to discover it themselves. Weirdo healing ideas or Trinity are not going to change the way these people feel about being force-fed meta.
For the most part, I think the calls for trinity would relieve players from the pressures of meta. Yes, there would be a meta heal/tank/DPS build, but it wouldn’t be the FOCUS of putting together a team. Team composition would become more important AND it would allow those players more leniency to whatever stats/gear they felt they needed. It wouldn’t eliminate it, but it would change the landscape and I think that would be enough to start a greater level of social acceptance.
While that sounds all nice, I would hate having to be a trinity role. For me, choosing a role to get in a team is worse than using some gear I may not like to get accepted.
Mace does not lack a symbol to make use of your traits. In fact, Mace symbol in your healing build > Hammer symbol because of your leaning towards some heals. If you just concerned about symbol uptime, hammer is the best, but it doesn’t sound like it fits your build as well as the Mace would.
But mostly It was alot of blaming the Meta community for imposing standards and infectious builds on people.
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable assertion, though I think your adjectives have a bent towards ‘adversarial’ that I was not using. I’m not sure what label you want to give those people or if you want to associate yourself with them but people that truly embrace the philosophy of the game aren’t the ones setting the meta standards and pushing them as optimal gameplay, implying everything else is sub-optimal. The game is designed to play whatever you want to succeed. These two mindsets are oil and water. Hence my point that player induced standards are wrecking things.
I also took away that Trinity games are better because it lets people play healers.
That’s not accurate. Someone brought up something about trinity games; I simply made the clarification that defined roles in those games don’t become an issue because players choose the ones they want to have.
Personally, I would love for team-instanced content to come back. I don’t think it will though, for many reasons. The prevailing attitudes is just one.
I don’t think Trinty games allow the kind of freedom you seem think that they do. Even in those there is a meta. There is simply a meta for the Tank, one for the Healer and one for each DSP class.
The difference is that as long as you can fill your role, people care less about if you run the meta build. Also, most of those games, the BiS gear tends to be more progressive and impact to your abilities, so demanding the meta all the time would mean not alot of players could fill that expectation. It’s just not practical in those situations. In GW2, you can just BUY your endgame meta build so I think that makes it much easier for people to ask others to play it.
I still however disagree with the blame you place on the Meta community. I could just as easily place all or most of the blame on the Non-Meta community, this doesn’t make it right however.
Sure, and if you wanted to say why, I would encourage you to do so. I don’t think the non-meta community is encouraging themselves into these meta builds so … your view would be enlightening.
But mostly It was alot of blaming the Meta community for imposing standards and infectious builds on people.
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable assertion, though I think your adjectives have a bent towards ‘adversarial’ that I was not using. I’m not sure what label you want to give those people or if you want to associate yourself with them but people that truly embrace the philosophy of the game aren’t the ones setting the meta standards and pushing them as optimal gameplay, implying everything else is sub-optimal. The game is designed to play whatever you want to succeed. These two mindsets are oil and water. Hence my point that player induced standards are wrecking things.
I also took away that Trinity games are better because it lets people play healers.
That’s not accurate. Someone brought up something about trinity games; I simply made the clarification that defined roles in those games don’t become an issue because players choose the ones they want to have.
Personally, I would love for team-instanced content to come back. I don’t think it will though, for many reasons. The prevailing attitudes is just one.
My posts are clear. Read them and you would see that. If you did and you didn’t understand them, then why you argue with me instead of asking me what I meant? You can put away the abused persona now.
My point is that we can learn a lesson: Don’t try to impose player-based rules where the game doesn’t support them. I believe it’s resulted in Anet pulling the plug on our instanced-team content. If people change their attitudes towards the ‘not-meta’ players, we might even be able to make this kind of bad behaviour become a rare instance.
So its all the meta players fault?
Because people don’t read?
Because people join groups knowing they don’t fit in?
Sorry, I don’t buy this.
It would be like me going to my weekly board game group and setting down with a group of guys who are about to play Settlers of Catan and throwing monopoly down in the middle of the table, then expecting those guys to play my game. Because its my “right” to be included in their group.
You’re ‘reading between the lines’ skills need improvement, as well as your ability to follow the thread.
My point is that we can learn a lesson: Don’t try to impose player-based rules where the game doesn’t support them. I believe it’s resulted in Anet pulling the plug on our instanced-team content. If people change their attitudes towards the ‘not-meta’ players, we might even be able to make this kind of bad behaviour become a rare instance.
I also don’t get your point; you think a comparison of a single skill and a whole concept for a characters role proves something? Let me know when you figure out what that something is. In the meantime, give some serious thought to what I said and why we are in the situation we have now …
I could have cited any number of skills, utilities and traits that compose the “meta” guardian build. I picked one to keep it simple for you.
Well, it ruined your point, which was silly in the first place. Deny it all you like; GW2 is designed to allow people to play whatever builds they want to be successful. lf people start inventing reasons to bully people into specific builds, it’s not going to go well.
Elitist jerks exist in every MMO, it’s nothing new in GW2.
And there’s absolutely nothing wrong for asking for specific setups for a group, and it’s not bullying to do so and kick someone if they try to join in without meeting those criteria that were stated.
Hey, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that. People should respect the LFG messages. What’s being ‘discussed’ is the fact that ignorant people are using ‘meta’ to treat people badly. My point is that is an inevitable result of demanding people use specific builds to playing the game. Because it’s a player induced element, it’s eventually going to be abused by players because it can’t be controlled.
I also don’t get your point; you think a comparison of a single skill and a whole concept for a characters role proves something? Let me know when you figure out what that something is. In the meantime, give some serious thought to what I said and why we are in the situation we have now …
I could have cited any number of skills, utilities and traits that compose the “meta” guardian build. I picked one to keep it simple for you.
Well, unfortunately I’m smarter than you give me credit for and your stunt ruined your point, so it must not have been worth reading anyways.
Deny it all you like; GW2 is designed to allow people to play whatever builds they want and still succeed. I know that bothers the meta runners because it ruins their message of ‘the proper way’ to play; too bad. lf people start inventing reasons to bully people into specific builds, it’s not going to go well.
That’s not a problem in a trinity game. If you play a class that focuses on heals, it’s because you desire to heal, etc… so when someone asks you to heal, you don’t cry about it, you like it.
Everyone is PHIW … the question is if someone is a “play how I tell you”.
What if you are a group irl friends and none of you wants to heal?
Genuinely curious because I’ve never played a trinity game before.
I’ve never had that problem in a trinity game so I can’t answer you. Usually, you can grab any other healers LFT.
So you can’t play with your friends because you have to pick a LFT healer, if you find one because every MMO lacks healers by design.
Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.
And yet about half of my Guardians are gonna be rockin’ variations using this spec. It’s almost like some people have a broader vision of what the class could mean or be used for. It’s already proven good fun on my zerg-leader for WvW. As the changes get patched in it’s just gonna get better.
Name 3 things in the Guardian’s base traitlines that effectively synergize with the Dragonhunter spec, or vice versa. It has to be at least equally effective in comparison to a non-Dragonhunter (i.e. Absolute Resolution doesn’t count because it’s not nearly as reliable on a DH).
You are not obliged to take traps if you’re going into the dragonhunter trait line, if you just get the longbow and run a regular shout setup (replacing virtues with dragonhunter line) you’re able to support the backline way easier. Sharing stability, condition cleanse, more boons and strength in numbers with people who are usually too far away from the melee. You’ll also be closer to your ranged people to pick them up with the bubble when they go down. Longbow is a more reliable way to pump out aoe ranged damage than scepter no matter how you look at it.
Most virtues get downgraded, that’s true, but wings of resolve heals for about 50% more, so if you can accurately cast this it should be better than your regular f2.
You should give dragonhunter and longbow some of the credit it deserves.
A Shout Guardian that takes DH is sacrificing either Valor, Honor, or Virtues. DH currently has none of that sustain, condi clear, or team support that those 3 traitlines do, so you’d be effectively devaluing yourself for the sake of a ranged weapon that won’t make up for your lack of damage anyway.
Honestly, I don’t think that matters if you want to hang back and play your fiddle with a longbow ANYWAYS. It’s a completely different approach to playing the class. It’s not about devaluing yourself; it’s about giving people something different to play. I don’t even think a build focused on LB would even include shouts. Who would even benefit from that? Think about what you are doing if your using a LB. It makes no sense.
You all need to understand that if you don’t want to play your Guardian different than you do now … there is literally NOTHING for you in the DH spec. It’s a PVP spec focused on ranged defense of points and being screened. If that’s not what you want to do, just drop the whole “I hate DH” (because … it’s NOT going away or changing concept/name/skills/whatever) and stick to what you do now. In fact, be HAPPY about it because it’s your best option and it’s a kitten good one too.
That’s not a problem in a trinity game. If you play a class that focuses on heals, it’s because you desire to heal, etc… so when someone asks you to heal, you don’t cry about it, you like it.
So when someone asks you to use Wall of Reflect defend against projectiles you use Wall of Reflect because you chose a class that reflects projectiles. You don’t cry about it, you like it.
I don’t see a problem with that … I also don’t see the relevant comparison either. Someone asking for a specific, single tool to an encounter is not the same as someone telling what complete build other people should be using. Wall of Reflection is not a ‘metabuild’.
I also don’t get your point; you think a comparison of a single skill and a whole concept for a characters role proves something? Let me know when you figure out what that something is. In the meantime, give some serious thought to what I said and why we are in the situation we have now …
That’s not a problem in a trinity game. If you play a class that focuses on heals, it’s because you desire to heal, etc… so when someone asks you to heal, you don’t cry about it, you like it.
Everyone is PHIW … the question is if someone is a “play how I tell you”.
What if you are a group irl friends and none of you wants to heal?
Genuinely curious because I’ve never played a trinity game before.
I’ve never had that problem in a trinity game so I can’t answer you. Usually, you can grab any other healers LFT.
That’s not a problem in a trinity game. If you play a class that focuses on heals, it’s because you desire to heal, etc… so when someone asks you to heal, you don’t cry about it, you like it.
Everyone is PHIW … the question is if someone is a “play how I tell you”.
why are we getting a longbow, when almost all of our abilities since day one are melee focused? I’m just not understanding this.
Because it’s a new concept for the Guardian they want to introduce. Frankly, I don’t think more melee focused weapons and skills would add much to the Guardian profession. It’s also a clever answer to the mobility issue, since I don’t think we are getting the runspeed buffs people want to see on the class anytime soon.
I get that, but it doesnt change the fact that you practically have to sacrifice a full 2 traitlines for it just to slot in a ranged spec. most of our other traits just arent designed to work with a ranged weapon.
What 2 traitlines would that be? Which traits are biased against ranged weapons, with the exception of some of the weapon-specific traits? Frankly, these things you’re talking about are made up.
I understand why people don’t like dh. I don’t understand why everyone calls it boring. Guardian is by far the most boring class, it has nothing fast or close to exciting about it. It’s a pve faceroll go to sleep class, why would you expect dh to be different. Can’t change its core
People don’t like DH because they don’t understand why it exists and what it’s supposed to be.
ANet has completely failed with their gold economy.
Sigh. If it fails, I hope it fails harder because whatever it’s not doing, It’s doing it well enough for MANY people in this game. Some people don’t know when to accept their reality. Despite your questionable claim of failure, no solution you have presented is worth implementing or makes it a generally better approach for the game; it’s simply different. It’s not about getting it your way. BK is THAT way.
GW2 doesn’t need to be compared to anything to gauge it’s success. It’s still here and putting out content and has players after 3 years. Who gives a rats kitten if some other game is doing something else? It’s nonsense to say GW2 isn’t successful because some other game is THIS successful.
We get it: you think GW2 is terrible and should die in a fire. You think preaching this as fact will accelerate it’s demise. So sad … just move on.
It’s sad how these unmanageable standards have blown in up in the faces of the Dungeon community, though it’s all self inflicted. That’s what happens with player-instigated regulations. Game isn’t designed for exclusion and it’s cost us all by lack of development on a valuable source of entertainment.
I know you’re trolling, but the dungeon community has nothing to do with it. Most of us are pretty easy going about team comp, especially in random pugs. The people who created the unmanageable standard are the wannabe-elitist scrubs who aren’t in the actual “community.”
It’s actually anyone that promotes specific builds for whatever their cause of the day is. It’s infectious. It may not have been the intention, but this is the result.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not seeing the point. Why introduce a long range weapon to a melee-oriented class? it just feels odd and incredibly out of place, even for just PVE stuff. So can anybody explain it, or am I hitting in the ballpark of how it feels in general?
It’s simple; Elite specs are about giving you a new way to play your character. There isn’t anything new about giving us more melee-focused stuff. DH does that for Guardian.
Anyone else foresee in the near future, the end of guild wars? I wouldn’t like to see the end but when shallow, uninteresting, unrewarding, frustrating game play take over, it’s time to leave the sinking ship I’m afraid.
I wish they would put the bleeding, diseased and shambling animal that is Guild Wars 2 out of it’s misery. I am afraid, however, that they will milk the cow dry, skin it and sell all the organs and bones for profit untill it can finally be put to rest. Maybe exploit the soul too for eternal torment…
I quit years ago and I am quite happy that I did, the whole game has become a joke and not one of the funny variety.
Sure, …. but the forums must be better than sex if your still here posting after not playing for 2 years … AMIRITE?!?
I don’t think my reasons are poor at all, they are personal reasons to me and enough reason to start me looking elsewhere for gaming. The discussion was if you believed the end of GW was nigh, I personally think it is.
They are poor; the reasons you leave the game are not necessarily the same as the reasons the game will fail.
Erm.. You can get the skins you just need to play to the standard they require.
Unless you can’t play to that standard.
and even if you are capable of playing tot hat standard, if you don’t find it fun, you shouldn’t have to.
I knew it would be a matter of time before your mantra came through; this is just another thread about how you think you should get whatever you want even if you don’t want to do what’s necessary to get it. Not happening.
I get your stance; multiple ways to get the same rewards. It sounds cool on the surface but I don’t believe that’s good game design because it encourages grinding specific content and the idea of legendaries is to expose players to many aspects of the game to get them (at least the weapons). A sensible and reasonable requirement to get the BiS gear of this type for the back slot as well.
This idea goes against the whole concept of the elite specializations. They aren’t just more skills for your profession to get access to; they change the way you play your characters. Giving some ability to swap between skills on vanilla and elite spec destroys that.
The ideas themselves are already out of scope; at some point I think Anet would do themselves a world of good to make a stickied post explaining why we aren’t getting speed buff.
It’s sad how these unmanageable standards have blown in up in the faces of the Dungeon community, though it’s all self inflicted. That’s what happens with player-instigated regulations. Game isn’t designed for exclusion and it’s cost us all by lack of development on a valuable source of entertainment.
why are we getting a longbow, when almost all of our abilities since day one are melee focused? I’m just not understanding this.
Because it’s a new concept for the Guardian they want to introduce. Frankly, I don’t think more melee focused weapons and skills would add much to the Guardian profession. It’s also a clever answer to the mobility issue, since I don’t think we are getting the runspeed buffs people want to see on the class anytime soon.
True Shot: To make this ability more rewarding for stopping you in place, we’re looking at further increasing the damage.
Thanks for your constructive feedback, everyone. I’ve got to head out for now. We’ll be back with more stuff, like traits, soon.
-Karl
Get rid of the roots on Guardians! I can safely speak for all Guardians in that we’d be willing to give up damage if you took away the rooting on True Shot. We’re supposed to be a mobile class, why are you putting restrictions on this?
Going to disagree:
1. We aren’t a mobile class
2. If you’re using LBow, then you’re not supposed to be in the thick of the fight anyways, so being rooted is less of a thing.
There isn’t anything to see here … we already have many situations in the game where people won’t subject themselves to what’s necessary to achieve an end. Therefore, that shouldn’t stop Anet from putting certain rewards behind specific content.
Doesn’t matter. Proof will be in the changes and ultimately what is implemented in HoT release. I doubt much of the good feedback was from PVE streamers … the DH spec, LBow and traps have little to offer for PVE.
Do I see player suggestions get implemented? Honestly, I couldn’t keep track of if one did or not simply because of the sheer volume of them. Again, implying player suggestions should be implemented takes the stance that devs can’t do their job and need players to tell them what to do. I don’t think that’s close to being true. If devs started implementing player suggestions to the point where we would notice, everyone should be VERY concerned for the state of the game. There also might be actual business reasons they don’t do such a thing as well. We can’t assume it’s just because they ignore them.
I’m not saying to ogle the forums day in and day out for suggestions but occasionally take a look. I’m also not saying to take every single suggestion into consideration because honestly, a lot of people might have good intentions but the suggestions made are lopsided at best.
How do you know they aren’t looking? You can’t assume they aren’t, then accuse them of not being transparent. That’s just not realistic.
They do not get paid to make games, they get paid for Customer RETENTION. The game is already made.
That’s just semantics. The people we are talking about in this thread do that by … developing and making the game. Besides, they are doing exactly what you say … it’s why there is a stickied thread about BWE changes for Guardian.
You can’t assume it wasn’t considered because you feel it could have done better. I see alot of that sort of logic. Sometimes you just fix things and move on, even if they feel uninspired or lacking imagination. They just need to work and meet the concept. I think it’s the same reason DH name isn’t going to change. It’s not practical to be transparent about EVERY change. They get paid to make games, not forum posts.
Obviously, the OP and the guy he quotes think this is an effective way to communicate to the devs. They actually think the devs are sitting around thinking their work is garbage and the only solution to fix it is to hang out and read these kinds of threads. If they didn’t think that, then they know full well they are just wasting everyone’s time with this nonsense.
