And heres the thing you dont realize, even if devs know or accept that they have a problem, they still have to make the descion on how to fix, and when to fix, and wether the cost makes it worthwhile to fix.
so, yeah they actually need people to QQ so they can not only identify things that arent working for the customers, they also need QQ so they can prioritize what/when to fix things.
QQ is actually not bad at all. Its annoying sure, but its pretty useful. QQ in an iterative system is essential.
How do I not get this? I get this perfectly well. It’s probably some of the reason things won’t get fixed even if they are issues; ROI is low, stuff gets put to the bottom of the priority. I’m one of vocal minority on these forums that recognize how limited resources affect Anet’s ability or willingness to change things in the game.
I’m not saying people shouldn’t complain, I’m saying that they should stop if Anet responds to it, repeatedly at that.
1) anet is not infallible so a customer questioning actions or decisions that negatively impact the game for them is appropriate.
2) Anet has reversed course on previously made design decisions fairly frequently since launch. In almost every case it has been after customers expressed dissatisfaction with the design decision.
Sure, but you don’t get it … it’s already been questioned, it’s already been answered. Of course they can reverse something but we already know the process here isn’t “If we QQ enough, Anet changes it”. In fact, that’s rarely how Devs work.
That’s just your narrow-minded spin on it. My reasoning is that someone at Anet didn’t just implement this without thinking about its impact to the ingame. Even if they did, then JS kicks in with his role as the economic guru, who has already responded to these concerns multiple times. There is a process in place; players seem to think it’s complaining on the forums then Anet changes stuff. It’s not. In fact, we know Anet has a process for this because they have changed things to affect markets in the past. There is a reason they don’t do it with silk to appease light armor users.
In essence, players are simply ignoring the message that Anet is giving them because they don’t like it. This has nothing to do with sitting back and not complaining about things as a player. It does have alot to do with players not understanding or accepting Anet’s decisions.
You say you play a warrior. Is it your main-character? I’ll assume it is, since you aligned yourself personally with that class (“I, as a warrior,…”).
So tell me: How is the status quo not a handicap for everyone with a light-armor profession as his/her main-character?
You seem to have checked if heavy exotic is more expensive, so I guess you ran into a similar situation of being unhappy in that regard.
Its not a handicap for the player with a light armor main because when he started the game, he had the same choices as me.
His ascended gear might be more expensive than mine, my exotic gear might be more expensive than his. I might have to craft 11 asc weapons for a full set, he might only have to craft 5 weapons. The sigils and runes for his metabuild in wvw might cost 4 times more than mine.
There are economic pros and cons for every class but it doesnt put individual players at a disadvantage because they are all available for everybody.
I think its unfair that staff ele’s only need to make 1 weapon while my other classes need to make more, 3-4 in some cases. This is unbalanced and unfair. I think for a staff ele to work they need to slot 2 of the same weapon…..
#sarcasm
even if you believe that is a lack of balance (which you dont seem, to) a lack of balance in one facet is not solved by making something else screwed up. Ever heard two wrongs dont make a right?
and as a side note, i would love to be able to get more actual skill choices. if the price for 5 new skills is one weapon of any rarity, i would pay that price.
You’ve missed the point: Inbalance and unfairness isn’t a reason to fix inbalances or unfair things. The strengths and deficiencies define the professions. The ‘fix’ is to play the professions that don’t have those inbalances if they bother players that much.
You might not see it but if silk was adjusted to appease light armor users issue with cost, this would affect a subset of players negatively as well. That’s not fair either. Fairness, balance .. these things are fairy tales in games that have variations for gear, professions, …. anything that is a non-trivial choice and the more of those choices, the more unbalanced/unfair things get.
and its a joke that hasn’t worked fine for lots and lots of people as well.
more people in this thread seem to think that it’s fine than not. Why aren’t these lots and lots of people here complaining then?
Because this thread indicates the population right?.. This thread has simply be bombarded by the white knight crusade, nothing more.
It’s not the thread that indicates it’s right … it’s 2.5 years of it being established as is that makes it right. No one here has demonstrated it needs to change unless buckets of tears are compelling arguments.
I knew you wouldn’t be able to stay away for too long. Are you babbling on about Guardians in a silk/ascended armor thread because you ran out of ‘need’ definitions to make nonsensical arguments with?
Answer: I’m going to bet they at least double if not more, because people are sheep and don’t think if they need it. They just get it because ‘progression’ or ‘stats’ or ‘need it just because’.
The design decisions to make silk (a lesser material) worth more than a higher tier material “Gossamer” makes no sense at all.
That’s b/c they are just based on macro economic numbers with disregard to most everything else.
I don’t think that’s too far from the actual reason the price of specific mats on the market are not a problem, even though you’re attempting to make it like the macro economics aren’t important. The market approach this game only works if items have non-trivial value to them. The more items that do that, the better the market works and encourages people to find ways to use it to their advantage. The real losers are the people that don’t recognize how significant the market is in the game and only contribute to the market with exchanging gold for materials.
The tier of the material and it’s value are not related nor should Anet attempt to relate them. Is there a valid reason to do so?
edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons
Great, so there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.
you could theoretically get 70AR on one item but it would cost an insane amount of gold and grinding.
Yes, that’s true. However the economics balances out, even negatively, then I just revert back to my previous point that the main issue with Acsended armor is that you have to do non-fractal stuff to get it; the only place it’s NEEDED. Any claim that SIlk/ascended armor relation needs to be changed because of progression melts away for anything but the highest level fractals again.
essentially a cloth person has to work almost 80% harder for the same power level as a leather user, and 40% harder for the same power level as a metal user
sorry thats a BIG BIG problem imo
It’s not that big if you actually look at the impact the increase gives you between exotic vs. ascended armor. Of course it’s clear our opinions differ and I’m not sure why you think a cost difference for a negligible effect is such a BIG BIG problem, but I don’t. The fact that the cost to benefit ratio is so high for ascended compared to exotic suggests that this was a thoughtful and intentional implementation to ensure that the difference in performance is insignificant and a deterrent to QQing about how low the increase is.
edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons
Yes, I was waiting for someone to post this because there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.
A +10 Ar infusion is a bit less than 50G … I think the economics favours simply getting these over a full set of ascended armor with +5 AR ones.
No, you can’t respond because you know I speak the truth. The idea this needs to be changed simply because some people don’t like it is a really weak. All other arguments are easily dismissed, even your precious ‘needs hierarchy’ based on individual player requirements. The individual ‘needs’ argument works against you to … I have a ‘need’ for silk to stay priced as high as possible. Trying to associate a players ‘needs’ with changing this is a joke.
The only real issue I see with Ascended armor is that it’s gear gating content and getting it requires completion of content that isn’t fractals, where it’s needed (the ‘real’ needed, not the one people are imagining).
If so, then your “need” is a different need than what everyone else here is arguing for.
Ok, so you want to add hierarchy of needs into you argument. The counter to this is simple … that’s not an objective position and silk prices or it’s relation to ascended can’t be balanced based on individual players ‘needs’. Got any more bad arguments to make?
The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.
Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.
That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.
No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANetdisagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.
By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.
Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.
It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.
That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.
I just noticed this post.
lol
lolol
LOLOLOL
Don’t accuse me of making my own definitions when you’ve been conveniently playing with the words “need” and “progress” throughout this thread to suit your own subjective and egocentric whims.
Even rares and exotics aren’t “needed” going by your standards.
There is no playing … the concept of what you NEED is simple. Are you actually trying to say you don’t need ascended armor for higher level fractals? You play this game right?
I’m saying that the “need” you’re trying to argue is not the same as what others here are talking about.
There isn’t multiple definitions of need. Ascended armor is needed for higher level fractals for AR slots. It’s not needed for anything else. If people have re-invented the definition of need or made ‘common assumptions’ to justify their fragile, nonsensical arguments, that’s not my fail, it’s theirs. The idea that ‘need’ is based on some commonly accepted baseline is just nonsense and shows a lack of comprehension of the English language. Need is defined by requirements, not people’s perception or universal acceptance.
The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.
Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.
That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.
No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANetdisagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.
By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.
Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.
It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.
That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.
I just noticed this post.
lol
lolol
LOLOLOL
Don’t accuse me of making my own definitions when you’ve been conveniently playing with the words “need” and “progress” throughout this thread to suit your own subjective and egocentric whims.
Even rares and exotics aren’t “needed” going by your standards.
There is no playing … the concept of what you NEED is simple. Are you actually trying to say you don’t need ascended armor for higher level fractals? Would you mind telling us how you get your AR without it to do level 50 fractals? (I know what you’re going to say … I’ve got an answer for that, trust me).
The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.
Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.
That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.
No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANetdisagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.
By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.
Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.
It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.
That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.
I do, however, consider a new level of ridiculous when half of a tier would be considered progression while the other half not.
OK, but that’s not really relevant to the thread about silk and armor. Fair point but different topic. I can see why it’s done as well and I think it’s a reasonable compromise between progression and balance.
I also fall back to the point about WvW and wanting to play a tank, where the (significant) defense starts to becomes valuable.
That point is moot in a thread about light armor user’s cost to get ascended armor. Even if Silk was the cheapest, the heavy/med’s would still have this defensive advantage. I don’t see the relevance to the cost of light ascended armor.
I will call the argument that “it only affects a few things so we don’t need to balance it” a trash point to begin with. It’s essentially a “it doesn’t affect me so I don’t care” statement.
The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay. That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.
I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive.
Progression is progression, regardless of whether or not it is “required”, and especially if it offers any sort of stat bonuses (full ascended is about 8-12% stronger than full exotic and 2-3% tougher). The fact remains that the progression is extremely imbalanced.
You are free to set your expectations low, but do not expect others to do the same.
Supposedly, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users
I am sure someone here will dig up a post that this bias no longer applies at level 80.
Except the discussion is about armor which offers very minor increases. Whether or not full ascended increases damage by ~13% isn’t relevant to a discussion about silk prices.
Exactly. Not to get drawn into it but the only reason I can imagine that the Ascended armor is assigned those low increases is to ensure that it’s NOT a game balancing issue to have ascended armor against those that don’t. It’s simply a small bonus for those willing to expend the resources to get it.
Anyone that would argue that even this small increase is still a significant progression issue doesn’t understand what it means in terms of the practical gameplay where that competitive edge would be applicable. The stat increase from the full ascended armor is not even significant NOISE compared to weapon damage variation.
The only honest discussion centers around how not having this armor limits your ability to access higher level fractals; even as small an aspect of the game this is, gear gating is a lazy and silly mechanic that should be written of of MMO design techniques. The armors’ benefits in WvW is not a compelling reason; WvW is a competitive aspect of the game, it’s not designed to be equal, but it is fair.
There’s no reason for silk to take 100 per ascended mat when it’s over 4x the price of other ascended mats.
There is no reason for silk not to take 100 per ascended mat because it’s 2x the price of other ascended mats either.
yes there is
game balance with respect to effort required to progress with your charachter.
the current ascended system basically says progressing on cloth class is like 1.5 times as hard as progressing on another class.
I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive. Game balance is not affected by the minimal difference in setups with or without Ascended armor.
Furthermore, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users, though I don’t know if that balances the higher cost for light users making their armor compared to heavy/med users. Until we do, this is just opinions since we don’t have that data. I also don’t think the distribution is as equal for various categories for mats.
Silk price is double edge sword really. Relative to heavy/med, light users pay more for ascended armor. They also benefit from loot bias and the fact that EVERYONE needs silk. I love farming on my necro JUST for that reason. I think the ultimate purpose of the unbalance is to get people out into the game and getting stuff instead of focusing on gold farming because in the end, everyone needs silk.
But for “competitive” play in spvp, do you think it could ever have a slot as an offensive area pressure weapon? With or without revisions to the weapon skills?
Generally, I find that AoE attacks are toned down offensively for PVP because of their potential to do too much damage on zergs if they didn’t. It’s too bad because that’s a great way to discourage zerg PVP but that’s a different discussion. I don’t think we will see any offensive capability added to staff anytime soon for this same reason. I do wish the skills were not so cumbersome to use, otherwise it might see more use as some people have mentioned.
I’ve played almost every mmo out there. My favourite was Anarchy Online because of the depth ,dependance on other professions and the community.
That explains alot. I also played AO for 7 years … if that’s your favourite, this game will NOT be your favourite. They are polar opposites.
The fact is that this game doesn’t fit your gaming needs and you should stop wasting your time playing it if that is the case. It won’t change for that.
i think what this shows, is that the overall item system, isnt very intuitive for newbs. This maybe because they now give you a lot more stuff early on.
Perhaps that true. Does that lead someone who doesn’t understand the system to assume it’s broken though .. especially for a game that has established itself for many years?
The proper tone for this thread should have been “Hi, I’m new and I must be missing something because I haven’t played very long and I don’t have bank space”.
I have no issue with people being helpful but that’s much different than suffering fools.
He got exotic gear within the first 10 hours of playing??? Is that even possible? As far as I know that doesn’t drop until about level 65. I suspect he is talking about the gem store armor skins though. That can go in his wardrobe. He really doesn’t need to use that until he gets his level 80 gear.
No it’s not. OP is complaining about things he knows nothing about based on assumptions he’s made. Instead of asking, he’s made a QQ thread about a non-issue that all the rest of us have dealt with and figured out.
OH geez … We’ve been playing for 2.5 years with not enough BANK SPACE!!!!! Glad you told us! I’m not sure how we have managed to do it. Must be a miracle.
I’m not following you at this point. You said it is bad to have roles for professions when you have freedom to build. I don’t see an explanation why and I don’t think it’s true in this game … and this isn’t a academic argument. It goes to the heart of what it means to choose a particular class as a player, why there is a class concept that has strengths AND deficiencies and finally, why Guardians don’t have strong long ranged capability. Ultimately and relevant to this thread, leading to the idea that getting a ‘traditional’ longbow that gives us that strong long ranged capability doesn’t work for us based on the concept of the class. It’s not a hard stretch of logic here.
Only reason crap builds exist (other than crap traits,skills etc.) is there is no content to support it. …
OK, but that doesn’t have anything to do with specific profession roles and freedom to build being a ‘bad’ mix; that’s a content issue. If you want to see ‘bad’ things happen when profession roles and build freedom collide … introduce game elements to those professions that allow them to do things outside their roles … i.e., give Guardians a long bow that improves their abilities at range without fitting the professions theme.
Since people still… keep… missing… the… point…, I’ll provide an example that may just illustrate it.
Echoing Eruption, “cascade attack” with three blast finishers on an 8 second cooldown.
No other profession in game has an attack like this. Following the example, Churning Earth would be a good candidate for alteration to a “cascade attack” and that’s the question of the thread, is will the NEW TECH be applied to core profession skills where it would make sense?
What doesn’t make sense is when people look at ONE specific element, in isolation, and claim it’s OP for the whole game.
I don’t understand why one would want to play guardians if they seem to despise support so much. It’s like playing a ranger and saying “I hate pets!”.
Attaching a permanent role to a class when there is supposed to be freedom of builds and stats is bad. It’s like saying only play burst thief ,condi necro.
I don’t get why it’s bad. This game has BOTH the freedom of builds and stats as well as permanent class roles … and it works. What makes it bad? Just because Guardian has a healthy dose of defensive team support hasn’t restricted anyone in using whatever elements of the class or stats they want. One doesn’t exclude the other. In fact, you can support using ALL of the elements of the profession; spirits, shouts, virtues or consecrations. I’ve NEVER been limited by anything, except my own desires to be perceived as semi-useful to the team, i.e., not running crap skills, stats, etc… That’s just a self imposed limitation, not one from the game.
Not all classes can do everything properly so there is a ladder which means there is a bottom meaning there is crap builds. Crap builds(+already useless traits,skills etc.) = limited freedom,roles given in trinity system are not much different then roles here, why bother making it if it can’t be useful somwhere but you give the option?
Btw the difference between staff support and scpeter support is similar to what we want LB to staff to be hopefully you get it. Guard needs a improvisation on condition build as well.
I don’t get what you mean that all classes can’t do everything properly. If I interpret this to mean that, for example, Guardians suck at ranged, the answer to that is simple; Guardians aren’t meant to be strong in that. I.E., not all classes are supposed to do everything ‘properly’. That’s not a mistake; it’s by design.
There are ALWAYS going to be crap builds because there is choice to make whatever build you want, even if it’s crap. BUT, just because crap builds exist does not lead to the conclusion it’s bad fora game where professions have a specific role. The specific profession role and freedom to build can co-exist; it’s what we have now. Perhaps an example is necessary to illustrate your point.
leman, I feel sure you’ll find that the concern you’ve expressed has been and will continue to be a focus of the entire dev team during the process of development, testing, polish, beta testing, balance, more polish, and so forth. The last thing an expansion pack would be intended to do is to put one profession at the top of the pyramid, where all others are “inferior” in some sense.
I have every confidence that all the other professions will do just fine playing in with, and against, a Revenant.
I don’t think the concern is about power creep so much as it is that the Revenant’s choices (that we’ve seen so far) are all good.
To be fair, we haven’t seen all the choices. If you wanted to pick two weapons and a few skills from each class, I’m sure you could make every class look good as well. You guys aren’t recognizing the marketing going on here. Anet isn’t going to say “hey, here are the worst skills we have designed for the new class, come play the game”.
I don’t understand why one would want to play guardians if they seem to despise support so much. It’s like playing a ranger and saying “I hate pets!”.
Attaching a permanent role to a class when there is supposed to be freedom of builds and stats is bad. It’s like saying only play burst thief ,condi necro.
I don’t get why it’s bad. This game has BOTH the freedom of builds and stats as well as permanent class roles … and it works. What makes it bad? Just because Guardian has a healthy dose of defensive team support hasn’t restricted anyone in using whatever elements of the class or stats they want. One doesn’t exclude the other. In fact, you can support using ALL of the elements of the profession; spirits, shouts, virtues or consecrations. I’ve NEVER been limited by anything, except my own desires to be perceived as semi-useful to the team, i.e., not running crap skills, stats, etc… That’s just a self imposed limitation, not one from the game.
How about we get fixes to our weapons before we go adding new kitten? After watching the utility/offense or utility/defense built into all the abilities on the new class…they better re-work some of our weapons if the ‘old-school’ classes are going to keep up
This ^.
Compared to other classes the guardian already falls behind when it comes to offensive utility & unless your using hammer or mace it can for defensive utility as well.
After looking at the rev all I can say is I hope they take a serious look at the guardian weapon skills, utilitys, elite skills & traits.
Psst – Anet says Guard in Gud Place…. since beta….
“good place” can be very vague.
Guard is good when teammates are around for you to buff or to CC/snare/chill enemies for you, however if your solo there are glaring holes in the toolkit.
They try to make up for that with making guardians extremely strong when allies are around but in the end it would be better if the guardian had tools like cripple/chill for it’s offensive spec.
Then they could adjust them without breaking them so easy.
100% this.
guardian is a 1 man killingmachine if there is at least 1 person with some worthwile roots and slows.
but alone ? we have like 5252626 bilion capclosers but they worth nothing when the enemy just runs away from us lol.
when im alone and fighting eles hunters or MESMERS !!!! the bennyhill music starts playing in a never ending loop………
This ^ is why I gave up playing the regular meditation spec & changed over to the medi burn spec.
The burst is much lower, survivability the same but it beats the ever loving $#!^ out of longbow rangers & most mesmers due to constant 800 per tick burns & poison
on weapon swap.
last time i tryed to play Condi ANYTHING in Spvp with any class conditions got removed left and right 24/7 feelt like everyone and their grand mother have infinite spammable condi removal on a 1 sec cd……and the dmg got healed back by all them regens ALSO everywhere….
that was the part when i decided i never gonna play condi builds with anything in this game…..
You’re playing the build wrong … the application frequency of burning > frequency of removal. Sure, some get removed but they can’t stay that way for long. In fact, the game FAVOURS condition application frequency over cleansing so your experience is rather exceptional.
His experience really depends on who he’s fighting. If an Engie and an Ele are in the same fight together and you apply burning before the Engie has used his heal or the Ele has entered Water, then the burning won’t stick.
Sure, but he’s not only fighting professions that cleanse more often than he can ap’ply burning so his experience IS exceptional.
How about we get fixes to our weapons before we go adding new kitten? After watching the utility/offense or utility/defense built into all the abilities on the new class…they better re-work some of our weapons if the ‘old-school’ classes are going to keep up
This ^.
Compared to other classes the guardian already falls behind when it comes to offensive utility & unless your using hammer or mace it can for defensive utility as well.
After looking at the rev all I can say is I hope they take a serious look at the guardian weapon skills, utilitys, elite skills & traits.
Psst – Anet says Guard in Gud Place…. since beta….
“good place” can be very vague.
Guard is good when teammates are around for you to buff or to CC/snare/chill enemies for you, however if your solo there are glaring holes in the toolkit.
They try to make up for that with making guardians extremely strong when allies are around but in the end it would be better if the guardian had tools like cripple/chill for it’s offensive spec.
Then they could adjust them without breaking them so easy.
100% this.
guardian is a 1 man killingmachine if there is at least 1 person with some worthwile roots and slows.
but alone ? we have like 5252626 bilion capclosers but they worth nothing when the enemy just runs away from us lol.
when im alone and fighting eles hunters or MESMERS !!!! the bennyhill music starts playing in a never ending loop………
This ^ is why I gave up playing the regular meditation spec & changed over to the medi burn spec.
The burst is much lower, survivability the same but it beats the ever loving $#!^ out of longbow rangers & most mesmers due to constant 800 per tick burns & poison
on weapon swap.
last time i tryed to play Condi ANYTHING in Spvp with any class conditions got removed left and right 24/7 feelt like everyone and their grand mother have infinite spammable condi removal on a 1 sec cd……and the dmg got healed back by all them regens ALSO everywhere….
that was the part when i decided i never gonna play condi builds with anything in this game…..
You’re playing the build wrong … the application frequency of burning > frequency of removal. Sure, some get removed but they can’t stay that way for long. In fact, the game FAVOURS condition application frequency over cleansing so your experience is rather exceptional.
I think it’s valuable just from the ability to interrupt. Of course you pay the price; you add another attacker to yourself. It could also save someone. The value of this is tremendous if you think about it.
It wouldn’t be pointless but I don’t think it’s beyond reasonable … do you think it would be an even playing field to pit specialized characters against non-specialized ones in PVP/WvW? Those specializations are advantage. Perhaps I’m wrong but my impression is that these specializations are going to be restricted to the new content because they are meant to address challenges that will be encountered in the new content only.
Even if that’s not the case, I’m still hoping that Anet doesn’t break with their concepts and dilute the profession simply to appease people and stick to their guns, just like they have done in the past.
You don’t get it … I’m not using my imagination because it’s not relevant. Bow is simply not based on the class concept that Anet has defined. It’s not relevant if people want it either. People wanted it 2 years ago and Anet came out with a definitive statement on why Guardians aren’t getting it.
Those example you provide fit those classes because Anet says they do, not because of preconceived notions of what players think. You’re examples actually reinforce my point; ANET decides, even if those decisions make you go “WUT?!”
Maybe Anet has changed their mind. I hope they don’t because giving Guardians bow would be as bad for the identity of the class now as it would have been last year when Anet explained why we shouldn’t get it.
No offense, but I don’t think you understand that this specialization =/= normal guardian. Your argument is applying the random thematic restrictions that ANet placed on normal guardians on the specialization.
I don’t think you understand that people want bows for everything where the Guardian specialization won’t be applicable. If my understanding is correct, specialization is for the new zone and content only, and it’s not clear if that includes current PVP or WvW content. The new specializations for the professions are being introduced for the new content and will be focused on tools to address new challenges there. It’s not being introduced to address gaps in the current game, which have already been explained by Anet why they exist for the professions.
I think the big problem here is that many people would like to forget we have access to burning so the profession could be more focused on other things people want. Unfortunately, that’s not a very realistic attitude.
It’s not forced on me so … no, I don’t feel it. I think there statement is addressing concerns that because it’s another Heavy armor user, people think it will play like the already established heavy armor classes. I think it’s interesting that they would choose the ‘flames’ in that statement as the thing that makes you ‘feel’ like a Guardian. I think likewise, it’s not the physical attacks that make me feel like a warrior either.
Of course, it’s super cool marketing to make Guardians appear like they are spiritual flamethrowers, so I can see why that reference was made.
I get that it’s not necessary to out-perform other classes; there is an element of skill involved for the PVP element you are ignoring.
I get that you don’t need to bring something superior to the table that other classes don’t to do well with Guardian in EVERY element of this game because the game isn’t balanced around ‘that one special thing you can do best of all classes’.
I get your assessment is very narrowly made on only one aspect of the game (poorly at that) when balance isn’t just about PVP.
I get that you are subjective in your assessment and that’s enough.
I get that no matter how bad you feel the class is in PVP, it’s balanced and that’s all anyone should ask for. If other classes are more than balanced, I think that says more about the work they need on their classes than what we do.
You don’t get it … I’m not using my imagination because it’s not relevant. Bow is simply not based on the class concept that Anet has defined. It’s not relevant if people want it either. People wanted it 2 years ago and Anet came out with a definitive statement on why Guardians aren’t getting it.
Those example you provide fit those classes because Anet says they do, not because of preconceived notions of what players think. You’re examples actually reinforce my point; ANET decides, even if those decisions make you go “WUT?!”
Maybe Anet has changed their mind. I hope they don’t because giving Guardians bow would be as bad for the identity of the class now as it would have been last year when Anet explained why we shouldn’t get it.
sigh Did they really need to add more conditions to the game, at this rate they will have to add resistances and diminishing returns to counter conditions because it sounds like it will be getting out of hand, limited cleanses on long durations are not going to cut it anymore. The game is becoming too condition based gameplay for my taste.
Other than that, Revenants sound like they will be awesome, in fact so much so that it will definitely change the gwen meta up, cough gren cough.
They don’t really need to add more but they do need to change how they work and allow players to manipulate others. I think that’s what they are trying to do in HOT.
Maybe, but I do know that bow doesn’t fit the concept at all. You can imagine many things that axe, warhorn or bows could do. I don’t see how any of that makes a convincing argument that one is more interesting than the other.
On the other hand, the argument that a weapon may fit the concept or enhance the melee landscape the Guardian fills is a much more compelling reason to think it’s interesting. The ranged capability is missing from the Guardian toolset because Anet wants Guardians to be ‘first in, last out’ and ‘leading the charge’. It’s got nothing to do with a thematic reasoning; it’s completely based on the class concept that Anet wants the class to follow.
For me, the axe/warhorn combination is the most interesting option we could get. Rallying allies around you with the horn makes alot of sense conceptually.
So in other words, it’d just be more of the same: close-range with some support. Doesn’t sound interesting to me, especially considering that there are numerous other weapons which do that.
The point of the specialization isn’t to upgrade the class or provide more of the same. The point is to provide something a bit different yet still fit in thematically. A guardian spamming healing arrows, and directly supporting his/her allies (offensively or defensively) from a distance is just that.
You don’t know what it do, so how can you conclude it doesn’t sound interesting or it would be similar to what we already have simply based on the idea that they are melee weapons? That’s a pretty big stretch in logic.
On the other hand, I feel axe or warhorn is interesting because it sticks with the concept of the class and reinforces it. I don’t want to see Anet try and bolster a poorly supported and out-of-concept idea for the class. Anet already indicated why the concept doesn’t include a strong ranged component to begin with. I agree and I think changing that would just make the class lose some identity.
Loot or fun, I don’t see how that changes what I’ve said. Controlling the fight is good but then again, you’re not solo out there so there are many people bringing ‘fight control’. If mobs have such low HP as you say, fight control isn’t that useful anyways.
You indicated condition is valuable since mobs have low HP and resilient. That’s not about fight control, that’s about applying damage conditions, so it just goes back to my point about how conditions aren’t the optimal approach to tag mobs. Why else would anyone care about the resiliency and low HP of mobs if their goal isn’t to tag for loot?
A better answer would have been “I don’t care, I want to apply conditions in PVE. To hell with optimized play”. I would have believed that much more.
Seriously OP, dump the perplexity runes if you want better performance … or play how you want and tell us all to go to hell.
It’s a good thing the game isn’t balanced around each class just bringing one thing where they excel. Seems to me what we have is exactly the meaning of balance; bringing many tools to the table that are useful.
Moot point, because classes like warrior, engineer, and elementalist do exactly that, bring many tools to the table that are useful. And they do it better than guardian, while also being able to deal decent damage at the same time.
Nothing moot here. Just because you fail to identify the tools we bring to the table and cherry pick your examples to ‘win’ doesn’t mean that being non-specialized in any one area is a bad thing. Being balanced across all gameplay is not bad. A profession doesn’t need to excel in one specific element more than any other profession to be a useful or balanced profession either. You’re posts are fallacies.
In fact I came up with the same conclusion as the OP. In SW condition build are indeed pretty valuable since there are mobs very resilient but with low HP.
I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. This game doesn’t follow the “most damage = loot rights” rule; GW2 follows enough damage = loot rights. Condition damage is the worst strategy in that environment because its damage is spread out over time and requires some ‘building’ to apply them. If you want to tag and get loot rights in trashy mob PVE environments, you need to be FAST and apply your bursts, preferably AOE ones, ASAP. Necro does that really well.
60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons