Guild Wars 2

Dego, you are simply mistaken. The devs changed TO a gear grind. Let me pose a very simple cause and effect that if you indeed have played all the games you say you have you would recognize.

1st stat increase. New dungeon/enemies/land with tougher mobs. This is done to make sure people still have a stat goal to keep them playing. Well what happens when those players have the gear? They leave to some other game. As they did for GW2.

2nd stat increase. Needed to bring those that left back into the game. The grinders come back and begin getting the new gear, and then leave once they have it.

3rd stat increase. Again needed to keep the grinding market interested just as the first 1. Now the stats are SO much higher then vanilla that the DE zones and Dungeons are way under powered. So they have to revamp those old content and make it harder.

Now the final result is new players coming in are dealing with zones and dungeons and content that they need “hand me downs” and “help” from the better geared players to even work through. Then they get to grind the tier 1 dungeons for enough power to be able to get groups for the tier 2 dungeons for enough power…

This is the cycle with power creep. It was true in EQ, it was true in DAoC, it was true in CoH, it was true in WOW, it was true in Aion, and Lineage 2, it was true in Warhammer.

GW1 did not have this problem and was very successful. We were told GW2 would NOT follow this line of thinking and so we bought this game over all the others. We were lied to.

A master black belt will kick the crap out of a green belt because he is better.

NOT because his shoes give him +10 to butt damage.

I can appreciate you have a different opinion but you did not argue why power creep is good. Instead you just said “its good, its needed”

Name an MMO without a gear progression that died in the end. Go ahead I can by all means discuss that since I can name a LOT more that died because of it then because of a lack of it.

Yeah, silence those people that love your game and are worried and just want SOME response for the sudden changes.

We locusts just want to know how to get the best loot so we can move on to WoW again.

sadly I am not Laz. I do NOT agree with it. But the fact is if you are not jumping on the treadmill, and instead playing it the way you want… they will take more and more away until you simply have no choice.

good video addition. And it shows exactly the problem we are seeing.

WoW is successful because it knew the get go what its asthetic was going to be.
GW2 was (at least by box sales) looking to be successful because it seemed to know what its asthetic was going to be.

Suddenly changing that asthetic like the video describes shows its fundamentally just a clone and not truly focused.

By being a clone, it will NEVER over take the original. Allods online is a very very well done clone of WoW. Yet it is considered a lesser attempt. Why?

Because a clone, will never be in the same league as the original.

If you level 80, you should be grinding to get ascended items. You are playing it wrong.

Well a dev during the recent Q& A explained how MF gear works.

Say a rare has a 1% chance to drop. The percentage of the MF you have equals the multiplier.

50%MF = 1.5% chance to drop.
200% MF = 3 % chance to drop.

So realisticly… you HAVE to go 100% min which means sacrificing other stats to get this level.

Congrats… you really do have to go into the dungeon LESS capable in order to use the MF gear the way they designed.

Genesis.5169:

Regizer.1763:

Genesis.5169:

The general consensus is casual which holds no ground to the game because they will eventually get bored and leave the game like they do with everything.

You heard it hear first.

Wouldn’t it be the opposite? Casual players keep playing because they will never run out of stuff to do. Hardcore players quit out of boredum because they finished all the content.

Wonder if ANet will be able to figure out how to please both casual and hardcore players

Hardcores stay because they have invested so much time into the game and its hard to leave that kind of effort.

Hell i said with wow for 8 years 3 of those years i stop liking the game but i put so much work in the game i left.

Casuals are bound by nothing but attention span and in the video game populace there isn’t much of that look at every mmo that’s come out besides WoW. they come and they leave as the wind comes and leaves only the hardcores stayed.

You really have no experience in MMOs except for WoW do you?

Unless you are trolling only which is a possibility.

“Casuals” played GW1 for 7 years without a any type of gear upgrade vertically. Casuals still play WoW and have for many years without doing a single raid. Casuals play for fun.

The minute a game is not fun, you are right we leave… however I know both sides as I was a hardcore raider in EQ and DAoC and PvPer in both as well and as far back as M59 and UO. I have been both… and I can tell you I left games a LOT sooner as a hardcore raider then I do now as a casual. But that is because I also pick my games better.

So as a casual I play less games overall, and tend to stick to the ones I like for a long time. As a hardcore you tend to jump ship looking for the next quick fix. Kinda like a junky.

Genesis.5169:

God why do so many gw2 players feel entitled to everything. Not pointing fingers at anyone.

This right here. Why are so many GW2 players wanting gear progression? They feel entitled to play a game and change it to what they have already played in many other games even when the marketing said this wouldnt be like those?

Not pointing fingers at anyone.

Aelelan.1639:

I had always thought that a gear treadmill was when a game consistently introduces a new set of more powerful gear as new content is added. I always figured that this implied that there had to be many content patches that introduced new tiers of gear to claim its existence but the Guild Wars 2 forums have proved me wrong. A gear treadmill is incurred the second that you introduce a set of armor that has more stats than previous sets, regardless of whether or not it happens as a consistent mechanic of progression for new content. Some would argue that because GW2 has not had any of these content updates with new tiers of gear and because Devs have explicitly stated why this was added a singular solution to a singular problem that it lacks the consistency that a gear treadmill contains, but that’s just plain ridiculous.

You are wrong on multiple levels with your sarcastic remarks.

Devs have NOT explicitly stated its a singular solution. In fact its the opposite they have made it a point to skirt the answer and say they CANNOT state this will not happen again.

Paraphrased-“We will not introduce a new tier every 3 months”

A gear treadmill is when they add higher level stats to new items, then have to adjust content to make up for it. Item progression would be adding ascended items that can be infused but has no stat bonus higher then exotic. The simple fact is by adding higher STATs and having to adjust already existing content (legendaries) means its power creep. Power creep is the first step to a treadmill.

They added power creep to bring in those grinders that need the higher numbers. Those grinders felt they had the best stats so no need to play. Well what happens when those grinders get the new higher stats… thats right young grasshopper they QUIT again. So Anet has to again add more higher stat items and again adjust existing content to compensate for it.

THAT is a gear treadmill. That is the future of GW2. hope you like it.

at best average 10 minute runs.
Each run average 10 fractals.
Total fractals needed for 1 item ~2500
250Total FoTM runs per each piece of gear.

total time spent running the new dungeon. 40+ in game hours. This is a LOW number and for only the FIRST level (blue) of the items.
LOL

Forums show a microcosm of the population. They show the extremes of all sides of a playerbase, the most vocal.

Now, people ARE more likely to complain then to congratulate this is true. But ignoring the forum posters that overwhelmingly showing trouble, and also blogs and reports showing up now in the negative means something IS wrong and there is a fairly large percentage of the players unhappy with the new direction.

Any company takes this level of dissent seriously if they plan to maintain a good standing in the consumer market. Look at Funcom and SoE at what happened when you ignore this level of anger.

They are never.. EVER able to completely bounce back from this kind of negative response.

Natural.7013:

They want to appeal to both sides of the fence, but it sure will be hard with the vocal minority in these forums on a daily basis. 2 million soldish? A few thousand complainers on the same three forums. Anet you decide.

But what made the 2 million people buy the game??

Did 2 million people buy the game because they increased the power creep? Or maybe 2 million bought the game because they said this would be different then all the other games?

Yeah thought so.

The halloween event had NO stat increase and had MORE people logged in during the event then this did.

So obviously that means this event failed right?

Love the logic.

Azure, a chance is what we have been giving them. They already did so many things to make this just another grind MMO.

The saving grace was no gear treadmill and no monthy fee.

I would gladly spend 15-20 dollars a month to have no gear treadmill. Infact, I have every much both me and my wife dump 15 each into the cash shop.

but now with ascended armor bringing a gear progression that was never needed as they was no GAP, I will gladly NOT pay that 30 bucks a month.

Warkupo.1025:

Crater.1625:

Warkupo.1025:

I can just as easily say that about having to do content to aquire new gear to do new content. It’s literally the exact same thing as leveling up, except a hell of a lot easier to balance.

Yes, exactly. We would like the tutorial to stop at some point, preferably sooner rather than later, so that we can actually play the game part of the game, where you’re not trying to perpetually make some numbers go up.

Which part of the game is this for you? If it’s not level 1-80 and its’ not endgame what part are you playing exactly?

End was never supposed to be “grinding” it was the whole game. INCLUDING the time when you complete your characters build including traits and weapons and armor.

See we put UP with the grind to get to this point because we were told there was an end. We could be “done” with the grind to finish our characters abilities and then ONLY grind for the optional stuff like titles and skins.

Now we are forced to grind again to finish our characters, only to find we will have to do it AGAIN at a later date. There will never be an end to the treadmill now, and that is why we are very very disappointed.

Togashi Jack.9531:

Reduce Ascended Gear stats to Exotic Equivalent and give Exotic equipment Infusion slots as well. Change method of acquiring precursors. Honestly I’m surprised that they cited players hitting a legendary wall and quitting and didn’t address that wall at all.

This and a simple apology would be icing but I would not require it.

I will probably never play the new dungeon, I will probably only play to level up characters to 80 now over the course of a few months in hopes that Anet will give up on this gear grind mentality.

After that… hell maybe by the 20th (PS2 on STEAM!) I will probably only log in for the free events like christmas and stuff, never spend another dime on their product and stick to playing games where they have horizontal progression. If that means no more MMOs then no more MMOs. I dont NEED an mmo social life… I play for fun. Gear grinds are NOT fun for me anymore. I have way more fun playing paintball or trying to get better with my recurve bow then doing mindless dungeon runs.

Until the MMO genre gets out of this stupid mentality… I am pretty much done with it after this.

Aelelan.1639:

We’re talking about people here – introducing free content not only because it’s their job but because they are extremely passionate about their work. It’s easy to just turn these people into faceless monsters out to annihilate all the hopes and dreams you POURED into getting your Exotic sets (lol). You’re not happy about it, fine – say it and go do something else for a bit but don’t hold some arbitrary grudge against these people as though they have some sort of vendetta against you and your virtual accomplishments.

Look we agree with you. These are devs and artists and writers and quality assurance people that many of us respected a LOT.

The problem is those people we respected for what they did in the past and what they said in the past. Now the actions are different from the past… and they are not saying anything anymore.

So if you have a friend.. a close friend that suddenly says “you are not worth my time anymore” wouldnt YOU be upset? Of course. All we want is an honest answer to why the change. If it is because they truly think this is for the better fine, we can disagree and go our seperate ways. If they had no choice, fine they have a job and bills like I do, I would understand.

But by not saying anything we are left without closure. Many of us have been dedicated fans for over 7 years, that is a long time to be suddenly treated like trash.

Before anyone says “they are a business not your friend” this poster took it to a personal level so I am just explaining it from a personal stand point.

I have 3 keys. My friends no longer want to try this game.

They will rot in my account.

I agree for the most part.

But the response you will get from the grind head types will be

“GW1 was not an MMO!”

Malefactor.2971:

Not much different than the “lf2 war or guard only” or “lfm full exotics only” I’ve seen for weeks now. There are people like that in every game, I’m just happy they advertise their douchiness so I never have the “privilege” of grouping with them.

The difference now is its 100% certain that the stats matter. There was at least some wiggle room before. And since exotics were fairly easy to get even for a casual (2 months for most casuals to gear out if they really try) they had a chance to catch up without NEEDING to do the dungeon.

Now by the time the casuals get the exotics. it will be

“LF2m +10agony only”

which can only be gotten from the dungeons they cannot get a group for and the casuals will never be able to play unless someone takes pity on them.

Yeah.. great system.

Yeah.. great system.

hplee.2839:

Fozzik.1742:

I’ve decided to skip the weekend event. I don’t feel like logging in.

I’m not sure when I’ll feel like it again…but even when/if I do, I won’t be wasting another dime on this game. I bought gems the first two months because I wanted to show ArenaNet that I supported the game they made, and I wanted them to fix the bugs and add more of the same great content. Instead, they took my money and used it to turn the game into something I don’t find even remotely fun, and which has sucked out my motivation to log into a game that I really, really enjoyed.

In short, they used my money to screw me over. I won’t make the mistake of paying them anything again. I hope the event is fun for the folks who see it.

hello there Drama kings/queens, Guild-war 1 puritists and anti-extra-stats-on-gear fundementalists

i will like to thank you for not playing the game, we already have enough of people in Lion’s Arch that makes it so laggy…

people still turn up for the event despite 200 pages of tears (Anet if you are reading it the lag is unacceptable) , and the dungeon is amazing.

please keep crying on the forum and stop log-in into thegame so the rest of us can enjoy a lag-free event

Sure thing boss. You are so amazing I just wann…

ya know what no. Just gonna report you

Frankly the MMO genre is hampered by the WoW crowd. Now dont get me wrong the crowd began back with EQ1 so its not JUST WoW players. But wow being such a success means if any MMO does not make WoW levels of success in a few months the investors and stock holders start screaming for change or close the doors.

How will the MMO genre evolve? it wont. Not until WoW drops to under 1mil players. But due to the smart ways Blizzard counts their subscribers (group deals at Chinese and Korean game cafes so even if only 1 person plays it counts as 30 for the total licenses) we will not see anything good come from the MMO market for another 5 years.

After that the virtual world MMO may make a comback. User generated content where the developer just gives the basic rules of the world and the foundation, and the gamers themselves create the world.

Hopefully the 12 year old WoW kiddies that rule the MMO market right now will have aged to at least 18-20 by this time and gotten past the higher numbers = content crap they are stuck in right now.

Until then… yeah I think I am pretty much done with the MMO market. I’ll be back in mod gaming world like War Z and Skyrim mods.

Fiontar.4695:

The FotM weapon skins will probably remain exclusive to the FotM dungeon, but Arenanet has already said that Ascended Gear will be available outside of FotM in the near future. There will even be a way to get Ascended gear via WvW.

Yeah. Similer to the culling issue with be fixed in the future… and how we will get multiple types of mini-games in the main cities soon after release.

Good luck holding your breath.

I support the OP.

Give us gearscore already Anet. You know you will eventually anyway might as well get it overwith and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

If he was able to fight while afk via macros or what not = botting.

botting is still botting even when being monitored by a real person.

If however he was sitting still and his pet just happen to be defending him, fine he should be able to get the ban removed.

Great post Space Cow. Sadly, Arena Net has very publicly made their point on the customers they want.

They want the content locusts from WoW, they dont want to dedicated MMO gamers that are sick of the same old thing from MMOs. They dont want the people that will log in every day to explore the scenery or go looking ford dynamic events they may not have seen. They dont want the WvW players that just want to have fun.

They want the grind heads, the loot monkeys, the “dedicated” gamers that already left GW2 for MoP and are only here until the next shiny comes along.

Basicly… they dont want players… they want Skritt.

Dogblaster.6713:

So you know guys … FoTM and Asceded gear was created for players (HC PvE) who wants to progress pve. So if players want to progress it you bet they will be picky, I am hc pve player myself with about 200+ explorable dungeon runs and you bet I am really not inviting just some randoms with bad gear and no skills.

So again, just repeating. FoTM was created mainly for level 80 level HC players who wants to progress. So I dont see any reason to complain about elitism .. cause thats how it is.

So you bet that random/pug groups are going to have problems in this dungeons, you bet that players that want to finish every difficulty possible will ask for best players only. If you dont like it, make your OWN group and just run difficultry one with whoever you want.

I will make mine group of elitist players and nothing you can do about it.

LMAO.

Yet those of us that first heard about the gear stat increase were told “it wont be that bad, stop exaggerating” when we said this would be exactly what would happen.

The only problem is we were wrong… we expected it to be a few days… low and behold its just a few HOURS. LOL

Reap what you sow grind heads… reap what you sow.

Zimlobo.3962:

Point is, I’ll have plenty to do over that span of time and a legendary will be a happy result of months spent playing the game. So Anet has my attention. To be fair I’m a fanboy to the point that I’m even looking forward to the 3rd GW novel… so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Lets assume you (not being flammy here) hate pvp but love dungeons
And what happens after you get that item and a couple weeks later Anet annouces that Legendary are going to be replaced with a NEW tier. You can only get this in PvP and it will be better then anything you can get in the dungeons.

What would you do?

Would you quit and be angry at the change in direction? Would you voice your opinion? Would you just “deal with it”?

I think people need to listen to this to understand and get a visual/audio interpretation.

Also Arena Net needs to refresh their memories.

this is to be expected. The stats are better on the gear you get from FoTM but its a big BIG grind.

Since we now have the start of a gear treadmill. this will happen more and more.

You need to focus a little Selon.

There are 2 groups

1 did not buy into ArenaNets design thoughts. Bought the game as a new shiny expecting the same old MMO. THEY want grinding after lvl 80.

1 agreed with Anets design thoughts and went for GW2 specificly to get away from the grind at lvl 80 for better stats. Those NEVER complained about being bored at lvl 80. Those are NOW complaining because we have to grind to keep up with the stat progression.

Arena Net has made a choice. They will lose all their old customers for the ones that want the grind. The question is will those people stay like we did for 7 years in GW1? or leave to the new shiny in a month?

yeah we all know what they will do. Only Anet does not seem to know this.

Frankly they could just make ascended the same stats as exotic.

Keep infusion for JUST ascended. This places it as a dungeon armor for FoTM style dungeons for the future. This is a horizontal progression not a vericle yet still gives the people that want to have that “goal” something to shoot for before hitting legendary

This also easily stops the problem with WvW and DE inflation and invalidating the lower content as well as lower dungeons.

Its a simple and quick fix that solves 90% of the problems people have here.

I love it. No real response from Arenanet.

Bugged even during the “guest” feature that brought it all of the “dedicated” gamers they are now going after.

They are screaming GW2 is still just as bad as it was
We have 2 new requests from these “dedicated” players. One wanting the trinity back and one with 1v1 dueling like is “industry standard”

Welcome to Guild Craft 2

They will be on that once they bring the trinity system back into play.

Chaos. most of us just see where this is heading. We have been down this road many many times.

“most fun experiences I’ve had mainly because it does not feels like a chore in anything it does.”

Well… you can give up on that in the future. Exotics will be vendor junk just like the greens are now. You will not be able to enjoy the ONLY dungeon anyone does because you do not have the right amount of gear already. New players will not be allowed into guilds because they would have to help the newbie gear up before they could help them in the future content.

So sorry, I do not believe you have played all the MMOs out there or you would see the effect the gear treadmill has. And I do not believe you want anything other then the normal treadmill or you would be just as worried about this as we are.

The new manifesto quote.

“1. If you like MMOs, we will be just like the others.
2. If you hate MMOs, we will lie and say we are different but read number 1”

You can see the remarks in Lions Arch already.

“hey all, logged in for the first time in a month to get the new items”
“Cool I just want them to release the full set before the MoP 5.2 patch”
“Yeah same here”

Directly taken from Lions arch 5 minutes ago. This is the people they want rather then those of us that stick to their game only? (boggled)

Pukknub.7368:

Why start complaining about items that they might change in the future?

Because without people saying “stop dont do this” it will never change.

Apathy leads to nothing being done to correct a mistake.

Dissent gives us a CHANCE to get an error corrected.

No
No
No

Sadly… the precedence they have set in ONE patch has completely ruined their original statements.

WhiteRat.5761:

Just remember guys no monthly fee, its new content i say bring it on.

The SWG-NGE was new content as well… all of us that went through that should just shut up and be happy too?

Common people, if you like the change to a tread-mill fine… its your opinion but apathy and acceptance because “its better then nothing” just means Anet and other companys can completely change the product after the fact of purchase even if its to a product you would NOT have purchased.

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

Ostra.3927:

An hour a day after work? Well good luck. At best we are seeing that on your time table, if you do NOTHING but the FoTM dungeon run… you will be doing it for 90 days before getting your first piece of Ascended. Hope you REALLY like those 9 maps and nothing else in the game cause you dont have time to do anything else…

Lol, I love all these people still quoting the 90 hours thing that some guy literally made up. It is MUCH less than that; the number of tokens per run increases with difficulty and the items have a chance to drop randomly as well! Please stop with the made up numbers.

Talking about made up lol.

15 minute runs, 5 tokens per run. to get 250 tokens that is 12.5 hours

How many tokens do you need? 2000? So that is 120 hours roughly, lower that time for a very VERY slim chance to drop (it will be about the same 1 in xx time as it takes to get the tokens) and the increase in token drops (neither Ascended drops or increase in token drops is confirmed BTW) and yeah… around 90 hours.

So sorry, no I no longer have blinders on like you…

EntDS.4687:

I’m pretty excited. I like new challenges and I always enjoyed the progression in WoW as well. There becomes a point when you run out of really fun content because there is the feel of a lack of progression.

Then you are the problem here. When Anet in beta and in advertising about the game said they did not WANT to make a grind style game and a gear=skill game you should have ignored the game if that did not appeal to you. Instead like a locust you latched onto the new shiny then complained because its not AS shiny as that other game.
But what happens when you get these upgrades too? Yeah you go back to wow until Arenanet makes a NEW shiny for you to go for.

EntDS.4687:

New skins and the like are nice, if you’re into that. I grinded for my current skins because it was the only real progression left to me, and now that I reached that, I was looking forward to this patch just because there was a new dungeon. Now I’m even happier after they announced this new rarity, as it gives me opportunity to keep progression. Given how paced ANet is being about releasing this new rarity, I feel more than confident I’ll have all the time in the world for three new slots. And I might play maybe an hour a day after work.

An hour a day after work? Well good luck. At best we are seeing that on your time table, if you do NOTHING but the FoTM dungeon run… you will be doing it for 90 days before getting your first piece of Ascended. Hope you REALLY like those 9 maps and nothing else in the game cause you dont have time to do anything else…

EntDS.4687:

As usual, the forums are filled with people who hate change, and wanted a game that would become as stale and stagnant as its predecessor. I’m glad they’re wrong.

stale and stagnant as its predecessor. Wow… I am amazed that Anet now wants YOUR business, you who insult the game that they worked for 7 years on, and are willing to toss people like me who supported them during their youthful days are considered lesser people.

Nice… gotta love these locust in the modern MMO.

Found this post and just… well, wow how far Anet has fallen. From the days of threads thanking them for being different than all the others… to threads with postings in the thousands condemning them for being like all the others, all within a MONTH.

for now, yes. And not just any dungeon… 1 dungeon. Over and over again.

debatable on time frame but easily 90-200 hours of dungeons for a SINGLE piece of gear.

This is making the old dungeon run grinds a thing of leisure lol

0. But I think 3 bots took my friends place already lol

To those that say it does not affect you so you have a wait and see. This is valid and if I had not seen this kind of thing happen in plenty of other MMOs I would be in your shoes.

Here is what will happen assuming they only add more tiers of items every say 6 months from here on out.

Week 1 ascended gear comes out. Exotics will drop in price slightly meaning it will be easier to gear up for those looking to start the treadmill.

week 2 The grinders are are getting close to finding the sweetspot for the dungeon runs. LFG for FoTM will start seeing “LFG for FoTM lvl 2 only send /w”

Week 4 “LFG for FoTM lvl 4 only +link ascended gear” Those without will begin waiting a longer and longer time to get a group together. Current dungeons will be nearly abondoned as PUGS except for COF and AC with the popular skins.

Week 6 Current dungeons nearly a ghost town except for guild invites only. Grinders have flooded the market with un-wanted exotics that no-one wants to buy anymore. Your exotics will be worth what lvl 80 greens are now. WvW will be ran by the richer guilds that have grinded out the new FoTM dungeon for their ascended gear.

Week 12 Anet announced a new infusion that gives better stats. IF you were lucky to get infused before to max level you will now be forced to do the grind again to stay up with your friends.

Week 16 Anet announces the old dungeons are getting a revamp, new upscaled rewards to make the grinders want it and harder enemies to match the ascended stats. Those new players or casual players that still have exotics or lower? They are not going to be able to play the dungeon until they grind out the 600k karma in Orr to get the exotics, to be able to begin running the lowest levels of the FoTM dungeon.

6 months later, they announce the “Blessed” series of armor and increase its stats another 30% above the ascended gear and bump legendary (or maybe even replace) to match. And it starts all over again.

This is the structure of what is to come. The time frame may be less or more but this WILL be the future, as it has always been the future for a gear based treadmill.

Can ascended gear be crafted?

No, not yet and no idea if/when

If ascended gear cannot be crafted, then how does one acquire it?

Dungeon runs. Best estimate is about 90 hours worth of runs (15 -30 mins each run) for ONE peice.

What are infusions? Can you “infuse” gear that isn’t ascended?

Nope

To those that do not understand why so many are upset. Take a look at the history of Arenanet to its fans.

This was a month ago… 1 single month ago.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/ArenaNet-is-great

Take a moment and read… its all a thank you to Anet for NOT building yet another of the traditional MMOs. It was a huge thank you for trying to be different and respecting its customers and its fans enough to stick to its guns.

Seriously… the devs at Anet should be crying their eyes out right now at how low the respect from their long term fans has gotten with this change.

Now notice a few of the people thanking Anet in that thread… are the same ones that feel betrayed today.