(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
I haven’t been playing this game much anymore but off hand dagger doesn’t seem to be meta anymore, D/F mercenary tempest seems pretty kitten strong though.
Offhand Dagger was IMHO the by far best choice in the last meta, cuz we had almost no powerspikes abd at least in the later half of the season, very little projectiles. Offhand Dagger offered more mobility, burst and sustain.
In the current meta, this might change though, even though I really don’t like offhand focus.
@Topic: It’s hard t say if the old fire traitline from the D/D-ele heyday will be strong in the current meta, since after HoT-release, builds just got so much stronger than before and there were some pretty big changes to the meta in general. But my concern would be that it’s gonna be too weak, definitely not too strong, so why the hell not? :P
This would help the profession a lot, because if the objective is to have tradeoffs within certain builds, then having the old fire specialization line would be good for an elementalist that wants to spec for raw power, with minimal melee sustain.
For a light armor profession that has the smallest HP pool (the same as thief’s), it’s hard to sustain without healing power or sheer thoughness stats if we don’t have access to evasive mechanics/invulnerabilities as strong as other professions have.
The old blinding ashes+might on cantrips would be a great way to bring back the fire specialization and bring the elementalist more in line with the rest of the professions. At least that’s my opinion, I’m just sharing this to see what everyone thinks about it.
The Problem I see is that ele won’t be able to compete with other damage-dealers if you want a “raw damage-dealer”, because the strength of ele lies in it’s sustain. I’m talking about full dps with marauder/zerker or viper amu. Ele just has too few evades/blocks/stealth or other mechanics like that.
But maybe it can work in 1v1’s when using merc/pala amu or sth. similar.
Mightstacking won’t ever be as good as before though, since commonly used 1v1 classes like reaper and to a lesser degree condi-rev, use heavy boonstrip. Also, the amu’s you’d likely use inherently have more dps (can I change mightstacking for healing power stacking)? ^^^
I can see blinding ashes being decent in 1v1’s at a 5 seconds CD.
But it’s a good topic to bring up; the fire nerf was warranted in a completely different meta, but now, I see absolutely no problem in reevaluating it.
I haven’t been playing this game much anymore but off hand dagger doesn’t seem to be meta anymore, D/F mercenary tempest seems pretty kitten strong though.
Offhand Dagger was IMHO the by far best choice in the last meta, cuz we had almost no powerspikes abd at least in the later half of the season, very little projectiles. Offhand Dagger offered more mobility, burst and sustain.
In the current meta, this might change though, even though I really don’t like offhand focus.
@Topic: It’s hard t say if the old fire traitline from the D/D-ele heyday will be strong in the current meta, since after HoT-release, builds just got so much stronger than before and there were some pretty big changes to the meta in general. But my concern would be that it’s gonna be too weak, definitely not too strong, so why the hell not? :P
You really don’t need to test much, most things are pretty obvious at first glance if you are a decent player. When the Patchnotes of the newest patch came out, I knew instantly that:
- Reaper is gonna be very strong
- Scrapper is gonna be very strong
- Rev is gonna be very strong
- War is still gonna be crap
- Mesmer is gonna be crap
I wasn’t really sure about thief and ele though and in terms of how good ele is, I’m currently still not sure if it’s worth playing it at the highest level, even after countless hours of testing, because a whole lot depends on how the meta evolves. This is sth. you can’t really test on a test-server, but it’s pretty clear that ele will not be one of the top-classes.
ANet should simply start asking ESL-caliber players about input on the balance-changes.
Two rezzing druids, 1 scrapper, 1 thief, 1 reaper.
I’m really curious if we will see rezzing druids for teamfights; I’d really like to see more druids used in teamfights and the new rezzes might do the trick. But Druid still has a ton of disadvantages in teamfights:
- Pets deal much less dps in teamfights: Bristle can be LoS’d or bodyblocked much easier than when you are alone and want to hold a point. Also, there might be projectile absorbs/deflects. The Smokescale will also have it’s dmg spread out over multiple targets.
- Pets can actually be focused down pretty easily in teamfights, which will hurt the common druid-builds a lot, since they rely on pet-swapping and the dps of the pets to a large degree.
But maybe the decent support, CC and the new rezzing might actually make them viable in teamfights.
The 3 things you named are IMHO the most pressing issues and have been written about many times.
Considering Ele:
- Scepter AA need to do more DMG.
- 1 Stability on overload needs to be baseline.
- Ele should have an easier way of boosting the healing power a bit. I’m think adding like 250 on some water minor trait would be a good idea.
Warrior needs a complete overhaul on berserker, the traits are just bad…. They can pretty much just merge half the traits and add some strong defensive/supportive traits so shoutwar gets anything out of berserker.
Druid could also use a slight DPS-buff on Staff for example. Yes, the Pets do too much dps, but in teamfights, they fall off heavily and Druid is just mediocre at best in bigger teamfights.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a ridiculous amount of reapers in the upcoming season and I mean 4+ per team ridiculous. ^^’
The build is very strong atm, fairly easy to pick up and pretty versatile: Perfect for Leagues.
I agree with the overall sentiment of your proposed changes, but I would implement them a bit differently:
1) Scrapper has too high sustain, and/or too high dps.
- Reduce healing of rapid regeneration by 20%.
- Increase shock shield CD from 20 to 25 seconds
- Reduce DMG of rocket charge by 20%2) The Reaper obviously has too much DMG and too much application of different conditions. Chill is one of the main offenders here for sure:
- Reduce Chill DMG by 20%
- Reduce Chill DMG scaling with condition DMG a bit3) The new Pets for the Druid deal too much dps, but the Druid itself has a very low DMG output. This is one reason why Druid feels so gimmicky and bad in teamfights:
- Reduce DMG for Bristle F2 and Smokescale Smoke Assault by 20%.
- Increase Staff AA DPS by 10%
- Vine Surge on Staff applies 2 stacks of bleeding for 10 secondswow! some actually suggesting nerfing scrapper instead of butchering core engi.
yeah, reduce hammer damage mildly.
a rapid rgn nerf without increasing its healing power scalling is unreasonable, the pulsing might trait is better imo anyhow.necro needs condi nerfs for sure.
druid pet damage is fine. ranger pets being good for once is nice.
1) Rapid Regeneration scales very well with healing power, it just doesn’t show in the tooltips. Also, it’s way too easy for Scrapper to get healing power (you get 250 for free with energy amplifier and it’s no problem going into healing power runes at all). Scrapper also already benefits a lot from healing power, so I don’t think more is needed here.
2) No arguments here.
3) Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Druid or Ranger needs a nerf, I just want to get him out of the 1v1-wonder niche. Pets are unreliable in teamfights, but slightly too strong in 1v1’s, so why not buff the DPS of the Ranger a bit, but nerf the pets, to make Druid more reliable in teamfights?
You tell me how Tempest beats Reaper. It’s the impossible match-up for Tempest…
No it isn’t??? What kind of build do you run? Depending on what you run it even tips in the Tempest’s favor, more more or less it’s fairly close one way or another.
(Focus+Diamond skin can still destroy a Reaper fairly well.)
If you run close to no condi removal, maybe.
The Problem is though, that in order to beat reaper, I have to invest so much in anti-condition traits and runes, that I’m often free pickings for zerker-revs, scrappers or thiefs. And even if I go full anti-condition, the MU still is very unforgiving against a reaper: 1 mistake and I’m just dead.
I agree with the overall sentiment of your proposed changes, but I would implement them a bit differently:
1) Scrapper has too high sustain, and/or too high dps.
- Reduce healing of rapid regeneration by 20%.
- Increase shock shield CD from 20 to 25 seconds
- Reduce DMG of rocket charge by 20%
2) The Reaper obviously has too much DMG and too much application of different conditions. Chill is one of the main offenders here for sure:
- Reduce Chill DMG by 20%
- Reduce Chill DMG scaling with condition DMG a bit
3) The new Pets for the Druid deal too much dps, but the Druid itself has a very low DMG output. This is one reason why Druid feels so gimmicky and bad in teamfights:
- Reduce DMG for Bristle F2 and Smokescale Smoke Assault by 20%.
- Increase Staff AA DPS by 10%
- Vine Surge on Staff applies 2 stacks of bleeding for 10 seconds
Here’s my List:
- Reaper > Everything but full anti-condi Ele, which is about even against reaper, but will loose in most other MU’s, so no1 will play it like that most likely.
- Scrapper > Everything but Reaper, which beats it and some Ele builds, which can maybe hold a point against it.
- Druid > Everything but Reaper and Scrapper.
- Ele: Can beat almost everything it is specifically built to beat, except tanky Scrappers and Druids, which would be even. Again, the Ele will suffer huge losses against things he isn’t built to beat (like if Ele goes full anti-condi, it has decent chances against reaper, but power-dps will likely shred it.)
Those will be the classes used to 1v1, the others don’t matter in terms of 1v1.
- Smash Brawler baseline
- Dead or Alive needs to be completely revamped into a sustain-heal during zerker-mode, or condi-cleanse or pulsing protection or sth. preferably AoE so it can be used to support teammates.
- Shield block reflects untraited
- Warriors sprint also removes chill and cripple
- “Shrug it off” triggers at 2 conditions (everyone uses soldiers runes with shouts anyways)
- Warhorn can easily convert into boons again
- “Fear me” CD reduced to 50 baseline
- “Shake it off” also applies 3 sec prot
Most of those changes would apply to a supporty/bunkery shoutwar, just what I prefer to play on the war and where zerker currently adds absolutely nothing.
In Conquest, it’s likely:
1 Reaper (merc amu signet necro)
2 Scrapper (paladin or marauder)
2 Rev (one viper, one zerker)
In Stronghold, I’d probably go for 1 less rev (the zerker isn’t that good as viper in stronghold IMHO) and add another reaper or maybe a druid.
This list is riddled with inaccuracies
yepp, pretty inaccurate.
Also, 1v1 strength =/= tier-list….
Take Druid for example, who is decent in 1v1’s, but at best mid-tier in teamfights.
It also depends heavily on the meta; if no1 plays a certain class in pvp, it doesn’t matter whether or not another class does well against it in 1v1’s.
pretty much spot on! Maybe the numbers are a bit big for hotfixes, 20% reductions might be enough for starters in terms of DPS decrease of chill and pet-F2’s.
I’ve been playing this build on Ele in PvP after much testing of various builds and I think it works very well. I use Merc runes btw.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYn0XCdOg9XCWYCcYilNAb4BEAKgErgUwIwdv+XPsA-T5QHwAAOBAA3fIwDAAA
Given that it’s even slower than staff is, I have my doubts.
I found that I like it a lot more in pve than I thought I would, giving out an easy 25 might stacks and permafury and heals and persistent AoE blind and etc
but for pvp? the AoEs are all basically lava font except point blank only (since they’re delayed by like 5 seconds to reach ranged), the knockback is actually point blank and takes 2.5 sec to hit, and boons can be stripped, making heat sync look a lot less awesome than it does for pve.
Those are my concerns. So, can it be made to work somehow?
It can work, if they make it less “clunky”:
1) Most projectiles or fields should fly/spread much faster
2) CD’s are too long as well, so are the aftercasts
3) It’s kinda important to have some insta-casts in there; slightly nerf sand squall (like remove the prot or the additional 2 seconds of boons) but make it instacast)
I think it could work if they make it a bit more reactive.
Thiefs are pretty decent, but if a team plays more than 1, it’s still IMHO not a good comp. I have more problems with the possibility of Reaper and Scrapper-stacking, since they both offer a lot in various different situations.
General
- A bit more selfless and pure supportive skills/traits that are actually good enough to use would be nice.
- Also we desperately need more healing power based runes.
Ele
- 1 Stability on Overload baseline
- Some traits (minor) should add either healing power/vita or toughness, cuz Ele’s stats are becoming a big problem
- Buff Scepter AA
Necro
- tone down dmg of chill
- slight buff to Dagger AA
Scrapper
- Reduce DMG of Hammer…. greatly
Ranger
- Tone down dmg of Bristle and Smokescale
- Buff Staff-DPS
Mesmer
- Give old Alacrity back, or at least 50% reduced recharge
Warrior
- Needs truly strong defensive traits in zerker
Rev
- Buff Centaur Stance (should have more burstheal)
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
You guys cant compare Necro to Ele, as necro you can just spam the whole way easy mode easy win’s, not so much with Ele…. And talking about 1vs1 the necro can be spaming and watching tv at the same time while ur trying really hard with other class.
And whoever disagree’s on this you dont play pvp.
We all gotta love the Gw2 Balance.
My self i cant play it anymore, good luck for everyone in gw2 garbage pvp
First of all, that’s not true. In random Games, I beat most Necro’s with ease on a not fully anti-condition build. In 1v1’s against good players, I loose if I make a tiny mistake, so even on the Necro’s side, there is much skill involved in the MU and that’s how it should be.
But why compare Necro to Ele and talk about the 1v1? Well, Ele had a certain place in the meta before the patch just because it was able to rip apart condi-builds and still be somewhat useful on other situations, depending on the build.
Now, Ele has a hard time against condi-classes, even if he is built in a way where other situations get unbearably hard as well.
The comparison is also not a bad one in general, since both classes have some overlaps in where they are strong. Necro can be built to be strong in 1v1’s, but still useful in teamfights and Necro is ver strong against other condition-builds, if you make some adjustments to for example the Signet-build, like using offhand dagger instead of warhorn (which I can highly recommend btw.)
Not to mention 3/5 Hammer skills are defensive in nature will putting out significant damage.
I have a much bigger problem with these than with some passive procs. ANet really messed up big on the balance of many of the skills that are defensive, but also offensive:
- Sword 3 on rev
- Hammer (2), 3 and 4 on Scrapper
Just compare those skills to what we had before in terms of blocks/evades, like Shield block on War or Gear Shield on Engi. The most similar skill to those was Sword 2 on Mesmer, but the Mesmer was at least rooted during it.
They also promote bad play and make it really easy to be offensive: Nothing can really punish you for using those skills.
I’ve played several 1v1’s against high level Necro’s again today on multiple builds and it’s definitely possible to beat necro, maybe even slightly Ele-favoured, but you have to put so much into anti-condition, that 1 power-rev or thief will just shred you.
Also, I’ve realized that thief in general is a heavy counter to Ele. If you build it more against power, you can win 1v1’s against it, but the headshot+impacting disruption rips ele’s apartin teamfights.
You basically need to build your Ele very specifically for a multitude of many different situations that it’s simply not feasible to run the Ele at all.
- You need stoneheart for pwoerspikes, but DS against condi-rev/necro.
- You need toughness, but you’d also like the healing power.
- You don’t want every overload interrupted, so you need Harmonious Conduit, but you simply cannot loose the support and synergy from invigorating torrents+cleansing water.
Cele removal, the change of the meta and the few nerfs of ele really hurt to a degree where we won’t see any Ele’s played in the ESL, even if each class can only be used once. I’ve extensively tested and tried many builds, but I’ll probably switch to my 2nd class next season. (no biggie, this stuff happens)
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
it all sounds like scrapper has just recovered from being a bad class lol
Scrapper was top-tier since it came out…. -.-°
I feel like they mentioned engie in the post saying they are continuing to look at its survivability.
Nerfed Sneak gyro, Nerfed protection on heal, nerfed our automated medical response, they aren’t as survivable as they were by a long shot.
Most are running scrapper runes as well, at least on EU to grab extra toughness. Some engies well I am atm running menders which means a lot of heals from Superspeed and healing turret etc. So theres its survival, watch out for usage of superspeed and the turret and youre away after that :P
I feel like engie is getting little nerfs correctly right now and isnt being destroyed into oblivion.
The above comment regarding ele, whats a tank? A tank sustains the damage, the ele build/role youre likely playing is a healer/support. Comparing an engie to an ele in that regard doesnt feel right :P.
Its not about engie being tooo strong in this case but bringing warrior etc more in line whilst scraping off tiny bits of engie survivability.
Apologies for spelling, written on me phone and have jet lag xD
I’ve played D/D-Ele as a roamer in the last season almost exclusively up to Leg X2 and I built it very tanky (cele amu, earth/water/tempest and durability runes). I was able to hold out against every class and only really got decapped by Ranger. The DMG/stustain was high enough to win against non-1v1 builds and glasscannons. The build did fine in teamfights, but it wasn’t really a support like a Staff-Ele or Bunker-Guard would be.
And no, Scrapper didn’t get buffs, but he didn’t receive huge nerfs and the change in Amu’s doesn’t affect him nearly as much as for example Ele, which relies so heavily on having healing power, vita AND toughness for a “sustainy” build. Even druid lost more due to cele being removed IMHO than Scrapper; that’s why scrapper can suddenly be too survivable without getting any substantial buffs.
I don’t really care about whether they nerf scrapper or buff other classes though or if they wanna bring down his survival or his dps, it just seems that Scrapper is now comfortably on top of the meta.
Not mad about it or anything, too early to be salty I guess, just sayin’. :P
Scrappers seem to have too many survivability tools… They have a trait that triggers at 25% hp giving them invulnerability for around 3-4 seconds, multiple ways to heal, speed, etc… Does anyone else feel the same way?
- They are now too good against Conditions (adaptive armor, cleansing synergy, alchemical tinctures, transmute….)
- They have no problem against power-pressure either (tons of evades/blocks THAT DEAL DMG while completely negating the DMG taken, high enough vita/toughness, adaptive armor)
- They have no problem against spiked dmg (multiple stunbreakers, blocks, evades)
Then Add that the numbers for certain heals are simply too high, like rapid regen and the +250 healing power you get from energy amplifier and Engi is the new meta and completely pushes Ele out of it.
I can go full-tank/sustain mode with heavily defensive traits and runes on Ele and still be nowhere near as tanky as an Engi that can even comfortably run offensive runes, even though he deals much more DMG than Ele anyways.
Yes. Any skilled Reaper will give you trouble.
Solution= avoid reaper.
Every other class can be managed. Ele is still the most mechanically sound class in the game.(Main Ele.=Jublain)
Hint: One cantrip, One glyph, One arcane utility. Spec traits similarly.
Summary: Please leave Ele AS-IS. No improvement/nerfing necessary.
Problem with Ele is, that he can be very strong against certain kinds of builds, because he has traits that hardcounter specific builds (DS is the best example). This often leaves the Ele open to be punished by other builds or in teamfights. (not picking stoneheart makes Ele punishable easily by powerspikes).
In the last Meta, there were no powerspikes at all. A few power-rev’s and a few engi’s, but mostly, you didn’t really get spiked down in such a tanky meta and you could run DS comfortably on most builds.
Now, not only DS got nerfed (and MU against Nec is by no means easy even with it), but the Meta will get much more power-DMG, while also having high condition-dmg, thx to necro and rev. So, you can basically choose what you wanna die to, burst, or condi’s.
The big problem here is, that there is a class with a very similar role to the Ele, that has less problems against both burst and condi (talking about scrapper here).
Add in that Ele’s survival hinged greatly on healing power and the fact that you basically need toughness and vita as well (cuz ele has both lowest toughness and vita-pool) and it’s clearly visible that Ele won’t be nearly as good as before anymore.
I can definitely see ESL teams running 2 Scrappers, it’s just so strong atm. What my biggest problem with Scrapper being as good is that it’ll force Ele out of the Meta to a large degree, since the overlap in what they do is very big and Scrapper is just a bit better.
I feel Scrapper should be a bit worse against conditions by removing the 20% less condition dmg taken from adaptive armor. A slight DMG decrease in Hammer would also be completely fine and Engi would still be Top-Tier IMHO.
not true if you use fresh air. Scepter is IMHO the best option when using fresh air, because of a few key reasons:
- Scepter has bad sustained dmg, but having the absurd Air Overload on such a low CD completely takes care of it.
- Mainhand Dagger has schocking aura, which is amazing, but you can also get the schocking aura with tempest defense, which makes the lack of on-demand schocking aura less impactful,
- The Blind on Air is absolutely huge in certain MU’s to be able to blind interrupts, Not easy to use, but if used well, it’s worth it’s weight in gold.
- The on-point pressure and spiked dmg on fire especially is huge.
- It’s ranged, which is very helpful and helps to set Ele apart from Engi. This is IMHO important since many D/D or D/F-builds are simply worse versions of Engi in almost every way.
- The new Amu’s, like paladin, work well on scepter, since it’s basically all power dmg.Yes, the auto’s are bad and they could maybe use a slight buff, but it’s really not that big of a problem. I run a Fresh Air build with pala amu and defensive runes (soldier, leadership or water mostly) and the DMG output is very high for such a tanky build.
This is such a one sided approach.
- Every overload is a channel, any decent player will focus you or CC you during this vulnerable animation
- Every Scepter AA is so bad, have you tried using AA on fire? Water? Earth? or Air? The argument ranged should not even be a factor, do you know how much Slow the AAs are? Being ranged is not even a factor. Even the Elixir Gun AA will damage Scepter AA overtime, and it’s a kit.
- Tempest Defense only procs when you are CCed, its on a 25 second cd too,
- Blind on air is only useful against classes who do not evade, try hitting a thief with that.
- So you only have air for reliable damage? Dragons tooth, Phoenix, Shatter stone, all easily avoidable, Rock Barrier needs to be cast again to damage, So you are basically left with Air swap, Scepter Air 3 and the blinds for damage.
- With good positioning, LoS’ing and proper use of Air 3 on scepter, you can really mititgate the effect of interrupts on your Air Overload. Besides, the CD is so short, that it’s actually not as bad to get it interrupted.
- Yes, the auto’s are bad, but the dmg doesn’t come from the AA’s. Being ranged is always a factor. With Engi’s and Rev’s likely being very strong in the meta, do you really want that many Melee-classes all eating AoE DMG and having huge problems dealing any pressure dmg to classes with teleports, strong disengages and good positioning?
- Dragons tooth (and shatterstone) are used to pressure the point and force out Dodges. It’s also pretty amazing when kiting Melee-classes: Drop it in front of you, walk through it so it lands/explodes when the Melee-class keeps chasing you.
As I’ve written, most of the DPS comes from Air Overload and the only Auto I really use is Air to be honest: Yes, it’s worse than other Auto’s, but it’s not as bad as ppl make it out to be.
I don’t think this matters a whole lot, because:
- Necros are pretty popular and so are condi-revs, which means mass amounts of boon-removal. That prot won’t stay on you long enough for the duration reduction to really matter.
- Many builds still have a big amount of prot-uptime for the Ele itself and your allies.
not true if you use fresh air. Scepter is IMHO the best option when using fresh air, because of a few key reasons:
- Scepter has bad sustained dmg, but having the absurd Air Overload on such a low CD completely takes care of it.
- Mainhand Dagger has schocking aura, which is amazing, but you can also get the schocking aura with tempest defense, which makes the lack of on-demand schocking aura less impactful,
- The Blind on Air is absolutely huge in certain MU’s to be able to blind interrupts, Not easy to use, but if used well, it’s worth it’s weight in gold.
- The on-point pressure and spiked dmg on fire especially is huge.
- It’s ranged, which is very helpful and helps to set Ele apart from Engi. This is IMHO important since many D/D or D/F-builds are simply worse versions of Engi in almost every way.
- The new Amu’s, like paladin, work well on scepter, since it’s basically all power dmg.
Yes, the auto’s are bad and they could maybe use a slight buff, but it’s really not that big of a problem. I run a Fresh Air build with pala amu and defensive runes (soldier, leadership or water mostly) and the DMG output is very high for such a tanky build.
/agreed.
I don’t wanna play skyhammer….. -.-°
Reaper is IMHO in a decent spot as far as I can tell. It isn’t godmode in 1v1’s and can have problems with engi, reaper and DS-Ele.
It has really high DMG and good boonremoval, AoE and a bit of condi-cleanse in teamfights, but it doesn’t have the best sustain.
I think reaper has a clear and well defined role to find a spot in the current meta (boonremoval and can be built to be very very strong against other condition-builds). It counters some builds but gets countered by others (not hard counters IMO, which is a good thing. Like DS Ele hardcountered Necro before the patch to a point where the MU was just stupid, now it can actually be decided by skill).
It has clear strengths in teamfights but also has weaknesses that can be exploited.
Besides Ele still being amazing in teamfights with a proper build, it IMHO still does well in 1v1’s against many classes.
I’ve done some dedicated 1v1’s against decent players and builds that I think will be prominent, also I’ve searched out 1v1 situations during unranked games to get a feel of my builds I was using.
I was using a D/D Paladin amu build with Earth, Water and Tempest (Diamond skin, invigorating torrents, cleansing water and a paladin Amu S/F Air, Earth and Tempest Fresh Air build respectively).
Wins in 1v1’s: (easiest to hardest, win meaning being able to kill it…)
- DH (easier on S/F of course)
- Thief
- War / Shatter Mesmer (can be a bit tricky cuz of many interrupts on certain builds, but still heavily Ele-favoured.
- Power Rev
- Necro / Viper rev (both not easy MU’s by any means, but if you play it well and use DS of course, I think they are still Ele-favoured).
Engi and Ranger are the only ones I have trouble with; I can survive pretty long against both, but I didn’t really test those MU’s as much, cuz I kinda knew I won’t be able to get a win. I’ll try and find some good players to do some more 1v1’s though.
I’ve 1v1’d several necros in about 50 1v1’s against decent players and I didn’t have any major problems when I was running DS (about 80% wins). I’ve tested a paladin amu, earth, water, tempest D/D and a paladin S/F air, earth, tempest fresh air build.
The Problem is though, that in the current meta, you need stoneheart as well (or at least Focus) against spiked dmg.
You really have to train the MU though, since it can be quite tricky and is probably one of the harder MU’s to play right. I’d still say it’s favoured for Ele, IF you run DS. Without DS I got shredded pretty hard.
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
Tested about 30 games and maybe 50 1v1’s on this Staff build today: [paladin amu]
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQFAWn0XCdOg9XCWYCcYilNAjYFkCGBDPgAwF0dv+XPsA-TpgXAAWZAY/BA
worked pretty well and it distinguishes itself enough from Engi to be useful. It’s very strong in teamfights and can hold a point against anything in 1v1’s. I tested it out with menders amu, but as soon as the enemy team has some decent rev’s, thiefs, engi’s, you get trained down like crazy.
It doesn’t really kill much in 1v1’s though, but the huge teamsupport makes up for it. Staff Ele didn’t really win 1v1’s before this patch either and actually lost badly against certain builds like power-revs, which are IMHO a bit easier to deal with now.
MU vs Necro is likely the hardest IMHO, since you can’t really run comfortably without stoneheart. If you manage Water 5 well, you can hold long enough.
*Edit: Depends on how the metagame develops if it’s gonna be useful though. I predict sth. like this:
2x Engi (pala)
2x Rev (1 marauder/zerker and 1 Viper)
1x Necro (merc)
Some might add in a Ranger or Ele (likely cutting 1 rev). It’s gonna be much more bursty and have tons more dps than the meta before, but fights might last longer than with a simple power-spike, which is where a Staff-Ele could do well.
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
Very interesting. Will try this out.
How does it fare against Reapers though? All those boon corrupts on low cool down…
not as easy as before, but it’s still favoured for Ele if you play it right:
- save blind for shroud 5
- Use knockdown/daze + phoenix once the stunbreakers are gone and he is just out of shroud or has no pulsing stability left.
- Kite and apply pressure with air overloads, don’t eat auto’s or whirl of the shroud.
- Use cleanses right (this is pretty important, try to use earth focus 4 against necro scepter 3.
- try and stay topped off (at least above 75%), don’t be afraid to leave the point shortly to resustain with water-overload.
- dodge heal signet….
- don’t stack too much of your boons by just spamming aura’s, w8 out the boon-conversions.
- keep the CD’s of the interrupts in mind, it helps a ton to properly use your overloads.
- LoS’ing and kiting is pretty much the key to any 1v1, since Air overload doesn’t care about obstacles and if you stand on point just when the overload finishes, it’ll keep storming havoc onto the point.
- Don’t be afraid to cancel the overload if the necro uses spectra armor. I often fake an overload and cancel it in the very last moment to bait out spectral armor. This also works against glint heal for the rev btw. It’s no big deal to loose part of a 10s CD compared to a full 50s CD for the necro. This MU isn’t gonna end very quickly, so using CD’s effectively matters a ton.
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
My thoughts on the meta regarding on how to build an Ele:
- You’ll definitely need Stoneheart or Focus: Good powerspikes will absolutely destroy you otherwise, there’s no way around it anymore.
- You’ll need solid Conditionremoval as well, cuz condi-builds like Necro, Viper Rev etc. are still very very strong.
- Many builds can run the risk of simply being a worse version of Engi. I’ve had this problem especially in bunkery/sustainy D/D builds.
Amu’s:
- The high Healing Power Amu’s are very tricky, since they don’t offer toughness, which will result in about 20-25% more physical DMG taken. This means that even if you are not spiked down b.c. of stonehart or focus, you can get trained easily by 1-2 thief, rev, engi dealing massive physical DMG. Also, when running those amus, you can actually run the risk of not dealing enough dmg, which can be a big deal in 1v1’s against classes you should outsustain, but can’t since you don’t apply any return pressure and force them to play defensive.
- The mixed power/condi amus (sage’s, merc’s) would offer a lot of dmg on dagger especially, but it’s very risky and hurts more than it helps against necros. -> I prefer the power/precision ones.
- No Vitality Amu’s are absolutely unusable on Ele.
Runes:
- Especially on builds without mender’s, I’d absolutely love to go for healing power runes like Water or even Monk’s or on certain builds boon-duration increase like on leadership. They offer a bit of longer boon-duration and the small amount of healing power really is worth it on Ele. Often I have to choose Soldiers though.
Trait-lines:
- Earth is pretty much a must have: tons of mitigation, protection and either DS or Stoneheart, which are both very strong atm. Well, not really strong, but simply needed I guess. Geomancers training is pretty much also worth it’s weight in gold.
- Tempest: Duh….
- Arcane: I don’t see anything that’s needed in the current meta in there.
- Water: very strong, especially the combination of invigorating torrents (in the tempest trait-line) and cleansing water. Not needed as much as earth though.
- Air: Fresh air is incredibly strong atm. Overloading Air every ~10 seconds is absolutely insane. Tempest defense and zephyr’s boon are the other obvious choices and also very strong.
So here’s the build I think works best: (depending on setup and preference, both mender’s+soldier runes and paladin+leadership (or water, or soldier) runes work pretty well. Element bastion and the constant reg benefit strongly from high amounts of healing power. Also, stoneheart or DS depends on whether or not you are using soldier runes, the setup of the enemy team and your own team and the exact role you want to play.
This build here is probably the best allrounder: (paladin amu)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJArdn0XCdOg9XCWYCcYilHAzdyeZ/sDngMQHUIAcA2gA-TZQABAw+DAA
Why Scepter? More ranged pressure, more on point pressure and blind to have an easier time, especially in 1v1’s to finish the air overload. Mainhand Dagger was mostly used to have schocking aura (which I get from constant air-overloads and tempest defense) and more reliable sustained dmg (which I get from constant air-overloads).
Why Focus? You are harder to get spiked down, have some decent condi-cleanse, more ranged options for on point pressure and the Swirling winds helps against certain classes with getting an air overload through.
Why DS and not Stoneheart? I feel like I have decent options with focus to deal with spiked dmg and the high amount of toughness and many shocking auras helps against sustained pressure from thiefs, revs, engi’s and other power-based builds.
Why leadership runes? The added boon-duration is amazing, it’s also not useless against conditions and the boon-duration and tiny bit of healing power helps with sustain and teamsupport.
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
Protip:
Any build without Stab on overload is not viable. I know this is bad design.
Any decent/team or player will CC you while channeling overloads.
It’s a big “Come CC Me, Sign on your heads”
And we all know that overloads are tempests’ class mechanic.. so…
Just my 2 cents.
Not true, I’ve been running without stability on overload, yes, it’s harder to play, but it’s definitely possible:
- first of all, reg+vigor on aura’s is absolutely amazing.
- in 1v1’s, keeping CD’s of the opponent in mind helps a ton.
- Good positioning is key, especially in teamfights, this alone makes it much more likely to fully overload sth.
- there are multiple skills that help with overloading without stability: blinds, swirling winds, gale etc.
- Builds like fresh air, that get air overload again really quickly, can still be very useful even if a few of them get interrupted.
- the mass-amount of boon-conversion of the necro can make stability work against you.
buff to thief will not be huge in terms of 1v1’s or even teamfights, but it enables the horrible powerspike playstyle where the thief(+more) roam around just ganking stuff out of stealth.
I’ve pretty much known that Scrapper is going to be good after the most recent patch, but now I’ve finally played it a little and it looks absolutely incredible.
- Amazing in teamfights (heavy AoE, some shared boons, condi-removal, sick on-point pressure, very sustainy and hard to spike down, sick CC, good at rezzing/stomping)
- Mobility is average
- Reveal and stealth
- Damage is absolutely insane (I was running pala amu and hoelbrak runes), both the sustained dmg and the spiked dmg.
- Heavily counters certain builds like thief, DH
- Very strong in 1v1’s
- Strong against both condi and power-dmg
It really is the full package… I can easily see ESL teams running 2+ Engi’s atm.
mesmer and war aren’t viable, I give you that, but the other classes are all decent. DS nerf doesn’t matter in a powerspike meta anyways and stoneheart is one of the best counters to that kind of meta.
Condi necro is pretty stupid at the moment, so is condi thief. Condi rev as well… looks like still 100% condi meta.
I play as power on my necro (always had) and I didn’t see much change from last patch thus far. Still seems alright.
Well, most of the higher Tier players have already switched to powerspike meta… Since Thief is good again, rezzing getting nerfed and nothing being really bunkery, it’s exactly what I was afraid of.
Be prepared for no fight to mean anything, cuz stealthed thief (+friends) will come and just snipe sth. down and then run away.
I predict the meta to look like this:
1 Daredevil (Marauder)
1 Engi (Marauder/Paladin)
1 Power-Necro (Paladin)
1 Power Rev (Zerker)
1 D/F or D/D Ele (Paladin)
There are a few builds strong against condis: You can easily build a powernecro that hardcounters condi-builds, D/D ele isn’t horrible against condis either, even when running stoneheart and Engi can 1v1 condi-builds as well. The Power-spike will then deal enough dmg faster to make most condi-builds useless (condi-rev probably will still work, cuz it deals the condi-dps so fast).
YAY -.-°
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
Ele seems fine to me…. Once the meta is full powerspike again and ele can easily go into stoneheart, it’ll be just fine.
but kitten …. Powerspike meta is just the worst.
So the last League day is here. What are you gonna do with it? Try to grind the last few pips to Legendary? Quit PvP and go PvE? Or just go out and enjoy the sunny day?
:)
10 hour work day at the University conducting EEG experiments… that’s what I’m doing with it. :P
I wouldn’t do anything special if I didn’t had to work, just what I’ve been doing for about a week or so: testing out builds that could work with the new patch.
Why other classes starts pvp games at 100% of their power, but necromancer starts with 0 life force?
Why do Rangers have pets and Ele’s 4 Attunements? Why do certain classes have more base-hp/toughness?….. Well, because they were designed like that. -.-°
Season 1 almost made me quit the game; I’ve actually already deinstalled it, but installed it again like a day later. :P
I think some sort of apology or even acknowledgement of the huge failure would be in order.
Honestly I’d rather they reintroduce jewels, then people will get a little bit more choice and customisation without them needing to have 30 different amulets.
/agreed.
Can’t w8, I really wanna see them too! I’ve been theorycrafting about a possible new meta and builds for hours now, but it’s hard to do somewhat accurately without the full notes!
Let me do my homework in advance ANet – pleaaaassssseeee!
Thx u 3 years fun…
With the removal of Cele and without any gear with healing/vit/toughness/power/condi I refuse to be the masturbation object of a Thief and Mesmer and instagibed over and over.
I can find me another game to have fun with it, this game does not deserve this sort nerve breakdown.
I’ve played several amu’s that could feel similar to the new ones I’d most likely use on Ele and they seem to work fine for me.
- I’ve played carrion D/D tempest with Water runes (which is worse than the new mercenary amu for healing intensive classes that can deal very well with conditions) and it felt fine.
- I’ve played marauder fresh air tempest and in the current very tanky solo-Q meta, it’s absolutely amazing.
I’m also very intrigued by both paladin and menders amu for fresh air ele, or ele in general. Even Sages Amu could work with thoughness-heavy runes in a more condition-oriented meta.
I actually think Ele is gonna be fine and I’m excited for Fresh Air Ele, cuz I feel that it might actually be a very viable build.
D/D celestial tempest to legendary:
And now in anticipation of the new patch, S/F Fresh Air Tempest to Legend X2:
Fresh Air works great in the current meta, but you need enough support. D/D Tempest is simply one of the best allrounders in the game and perfect for Solo-Q’s (which are like 95% of my games)