Guild Wars 2

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

devs wont show theirs coz they might be question on how they balance classes they dont play ^^

Now that they’ve lost Powerr, the only one with a significant amount of pvp played is Grouch.

Prysin.8542:

If you cannot be bothered to help those in need, you should not complain about them either. You could go hold home point while taking your time to explain the simple stuff. Bad’s will be bad’s until someone can teach them. No teacher – more bad’s.

You can’t teach them. You don’t have the time. Worst yet, they don’t want to hear you. Especially the newer players, they’re there for an achievement or they mistakenly went in thinking it was the normal area for them to pvp in. You try explaining rotations when you’re bunkering mid and where people need to go. Or better yet, call assist on home when two people open up from stealth on you. It’s a lose lose situation, which only makes it less appealing for everyone.

Starting MMR needs to be out of the top 1000 range. Let them work their way up the ranks. They shouldn’t be starting in at 500.

butch.8136:

If the MMR would be more strict in an attempt to create a more balanced matchup, the queues would get even more excessive. At this point, we can’t judge the system as it only works properly with a decent population. Best solution would be a NA/EU merger for pvp to get a better experience all around, but that’ll never happen.

Population has to do with it I agree, but the starting MMR for new players is too high. And tbh I wouldn’t mind waiting for a more balanced match up. I cannot stand getting paired with people who I should not be paired with. Looking over their leaderboard ranks at the end of matches, there is no reason they should be in my group. This only compounds itself when you tank 700 places in ranks and are still paired with people who don’t know how to play.

It’s not my job to teach these players to play, but when I do attempt to do so you are time constrained as you’re fighting. This only lends itself to more frustration which turns into anger at them. I don’t want to play with them and I shouldn’t have to teach them.

The system is completely broken and everyone knows this, but the big problem is the atmosphere it creates. I get enraged when I’m partnered with new players who do not know what they are doing. They are frustrated because they just want to learn to play. I don’t have time to type out what to do and where to be when the match is live and you’re fighting. You’re fostering an environment where everyone just hates each other.

Yeah that’s pretty old and already had its fifteen minutes of fame…

We were beta testers for China! NICE!

For the love of God.

Power ranger is very close. The biggest changes though, need to be addressed with thieves and not necessarily buffs to rangers.

Angelica Dream.7103:

Can you guys give links?
… and remember he is a new player and his play style is a little slow. Which is the reason that I did not give him my PVP Ranger build.

I really appreciate the community helping a new player. (he will need it LOL)

For new players use either the hambow with soldiers or condi/shout warrior with settlers.

Nabbo.2845:

Look up Soldier’s Hambow for Warriors. Morbidly overpowered and silly easy to play!

^……………^

Or condi warrior with settlers and shouts/heal. Though I don’t recommend that for anyone to play, it’s an abomination of a build; however if he needs something braindead to play…

Chaith.8256:

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

I made a thread some time ago where i said solo q was in the worst state ever.

Well i was wrong.

NOW it’s in the worst state ever, to the point that i don’t even understand why so many horrible players even queue.

Moreover everytime i play, ranked people are like 2/10 ( wut), sometimes totally none.

Has EU really reached NA level ?

I’m getting so discouraged that i may even try to play with a team. OMG.

Reached NA level? I would say they were always on par (good or bad). Saying one was ahead or behind the other was nothing more than egos getting carried away.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The level of competition and general competence of SoloQ rotations & individual player skill in EU region is pretty overwhelmingly better than NA. Many EU players especially can vouch for this.

This is substantiated how exactly? Oh through opinions? I was just checking, because my opinion while watching the streaming of EU players in solo queue, was that it was on par with NA. Some good matches and just as many lesser skilled players who lacked rotation or individual skill.

Mrbig.8019:

I made a thread some time ago where i said solo q was in the worst state ever.

Well i was wrong.

NOW it’s in the worst state ever, to the point that i don’t even understand why so many horrible players even queue.

Moreover everytime i play, ranked people are like 2/10 ( wut), sometimes totally none.

Has EU really reached NA level ?

I’m getting so discouraged that i may even try to play with a team. OMG.

Reached NA level? I would say they were always on par (good or bad). Saying one was ahead or behind the other was nothing more than egos getting carried away.

Shaogin.2679:

Pyriall.5027:

Power Necro is very good atm. A little underestimated by most as well. Thieves aren’t a main concern (you are pretty tanky) it’s more hambow warriors that’s the issue and depending on the situation it is manageable.

I run staff, dagger/focus with double wells and flesh wurm (very under utilized ability, great on Forest and Khylo). IMO focus is just too good to not use. Great burst set up and utility with the boon strip. The combination of wells and lich form can turn a team fight faster than anything else I’ve seen. Lastly, it’s not lb spam. Play the build properly and you’ll have fun and a decent amount of success.

I do love having the focus but I’d miss my warhorn too much. That unblockable daze, and the crazy amount of Life Force that the Locust Swarm puts out. I just pick up Chill of Death instead.

Warhorn is very good, I just have found very few situations where I would have preferred having it over the focus. The focus also gives you an alternate burst combo outside of the standard well bomb. Reaper’s touch is very very good, comboing it with dark path catches people off guard and they don’t expect that much damage as suddenly as it happens. Especially if they are in range for a chill of death proc as well.

Power Necro is very good atm. A little underestimated by most as well. Thieves aren’t a main concern (you are pretty tanky) it’s more hambow warriors that’s the issue and depending on the situation it is manageable.

I run staff, dagger/focus with double wells and flesh wurm (very under utilized ability, great on Forest and Khylo). IMO focus is just too good to not use. Great burst set up and utility with the boon strip. The combination of wells and lich form can turn a team fight faster than anything else I’ve seen. Lastly, it’s not lb spam. Play the build properly and you’ll have fun and a decent amount of success.

Jomo kenyatta.7351:

PVP is not the place for this. end of story.

My goodness…and I thought I was bad.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Hey guys.

I just wanted to give you guys a quick update. Based on your feedback, we’ve decided not to add Runes of Perplexity to PvP in the 4/15 Feature Pack. We’ll be monitoring the balance of runes closely, making more tweaks if necessary, and revisiting the possibility of adding Runes of Perplexity to PvP at a later point.

Thanks again for comporting yourselves in such a cooperative and constructive manner – you guys had some great points and counterpoints regarding this issue.

April Fools?

Powerr.3649:

Pyriall.5027:

Now the juicy details can come out! What else do you have for us?

A time, a date, a place, a duel!

It’s on!

Bring it Pyrial

OH…it’s already brought!!!

Powerr.3649:

Bombsaway.7198:

All runes are being changed.

We are not sure how each rune set that is not perplexity will be changed.
From early indications (a few rune sets which were shown in Twitch channel) these changes make them similar in power to perplexity runes which got nerfed (thinking of the might rune set they showed)

Therefore, I would just wait before over-reacting. I’m betting a bag of popcorn that perplexity runes will not be the rune set most complained about.

All runes are being changed, but I wouldn’t say they are being “re-balanced”. I just don’t want you to be under this impression. Their stats were more “adjusted for consistency”. There are still going to be 2-3 sets that’ll probably end up unanimously more powerful than most.

Now the juicy details can come out! What else do you have for us?

style.6173:

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

I hope you never go into game design.

Wow…that went over some heads.

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

Justin ODell.9517:

Master of Timespace.2548:

But does this change make the game easier to balance in any meaningful sense? How many balance problems have there been due to the jewels?

It isn’t just about jewels, it’s about stats in general. I can totally see why our designers would want the most influential thing (stats) to be locked down.

This would make sense if the stats were balanced to begin with. Looking over the landscape of the professions; the base health differential is just too large given the ability of most professions to fill similar roles. I still do not understand why, given such a large build, you guys have not looked into increasing the base health pools of some professions. Does it make sense, in a pure berserker build, to have such large discrepancies in health?

Raunchy.6891:

Pyriall.5027:

Raunchy.6891:

Pyriall.5027:

Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

I doubt we will see many necros move to these runes, since the max stacks they can get is 8 every 25 seconds, along with the fact that interrupting as a necro isn’t that easy.

Also how could a bonus that gets 3 stacks of confusion applied to you if you hit the other person ever be a 6 piece bonus? I would sort of agree if they weren’t changing it, but with the changes it’s not that game breaking of a set anymore. Though I completely agree that random procs like that shouldn’t exist in this game.

It’s a completely passive punishment for others doing what the game requires you to do (attack the other person). The 4 piece bonus should be in line with other 4 piece bonuses, which is a minor compliment to the rune set. There are only 2 rune sets that come to mind that we can compare them to. Nightmare/Air runes. The four piece bonus is a very minor compliment to the rune set. The 6th rounds out the set and air is on par with the 4 piece bonus of perplexity.

There are a good amount of 4 piece bonuses that give a condition for being hit. I don’t agree with it, but it’s the pattern that they’ve chosen. While I do agree when comparing the stacks to other 4 piece bonuses this one is stronger than the others for sure, but we won’t know if that holds true until we see the changes to the rest of the runes. Also, it’s better to compare these runes to similar runes, like Krait or Orrian.

Which is what? I think 5% chance to cause chill, bleeding, or poison vs 25%. When you look at those, compare too the 6th piece. It’s mind boggling that they would introduce runes knowing they were a “touchy” subject. It means they admit to entertaining changes to the game they know will not be well received by the players. What does that say about the direction of the game?

If they introduce more rune set to be on par with this one…talk about power creep. Runes of the Balthazar are another set that comes to mind. Was anyone able to get a screen shot of new Balthazar runes?

Raunchy.6891:

Pyriall.5027:

Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

I doubt we will see many necros move to these runes, since the max stacks they can get is 8 every 25 seconds, along with the fact that interrupting as a necro isn’t that easy.

Also how could a bonus that gets 3 stacks of confusion applied to you if you hit the other person ever be a 6 piece bonus? I would sort of agree if they weren’t changing it, but with the changes it’s not that game breaking of a set anymore. Though I completely agree that random procs like that shouldn’t exist in this game.

It’s a completely passive punishment for others doing what the game requires you to do (attack the other person). The 4 piece bonus should be in line with other 4 piece bonuses, which is a minor compliment to the rune set. There are only 2 rune sets that come to mind that we can compare them to. Nightmare/Air runes. The four piece bonus is a very minor compliment to the rune set. The 6th rounds out the set and air is on par with the 4 piece bonus of perplexity.

The issue is the game is overly saturated with conditions. This widens the gap further away from a balanced game. You again have professions with an overabundance of conditions and other builds with large amounts of condition cleanses. Those in the middle are not in a good place. This arms race is getting out of hand.

If you wanted to open up build diversity, you should focus on those builds specifically. Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

EverythingEnds.4261:

Evan Lesh.3295:

We can’t support GW1 style observer mode and recordings yet due to the fact we use Havok. The simulations are not deterministic so we have to figure out a way around that first. Basically, its way harder to do in GW2 than GW1.

It’s a pitty that it is unlikely to be realised, but I appreciate that at least we got serious and reasoned statment on this topic and not another “soon”-like stuff.

Well said.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Pyriall.5027:

I find it a bit curious that NOW you quote a forum post, being that is supports your position (even moderately at best). Yet, all the other posts (hello skyhammer and skyhammer farming threads) were thought of as not valid enough.

Pyriall, I don’t HAVE a position. If anything, my position tends to stand with the community. Sometimes, you guys send mixed messaging, which is what I am trying to understand. If I go back to the devs and tell them the feedback you give in this thread, then what should I say when they bring up the point I made?

I’m not going to get into detail on the Skyhammer point because I don’t want to derail this thread, but I will say that using Skyhammer to argue your point is backwards. The only reason I commented on that thread is because I needed to know what I was going to say when I went to the team and explained how the community feels it should be removed. It was literally the first issue I raised to the team the day I came back.

You act like it is ArenaNet vs. the community, and that is just wrong on so many levels. When you see me picking apart your arguments and pointing things out, it’s because I want to make sure you have thought everything through before I raise it to the team.

We all want the same thing. For GW2 to be the best it can be.

Now, back on topic. OE, I think your points are valid. I feel like your thread has mixed messaging in it, though. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you started this thread with the concern that we are removing a piece that you feel is tantamount to build diversity. Can you explain which builds you feel this will affect? I’m asking this because I am seeing posts from others that say it’s not really going to change much.

Everyone kept asking me “Is this patch going to shake up the meta?” and it always made me chuckle knowing what was coming. Given that we are changing so much, it will be a major shake-up for those of you that have known our game through it’s ups and downs. In that sense, it will be a big adjustment.

This is why I ask that you guys try things out before assuming this will hurt build diversity or the game in general. We are shaking things up and changing systems that we have not liked for a long time. Yes, it’s going to be a renaissance of GW2 PvP.

I’m just asking you guys to be open to it. If this goes out and it didn’t work out as we had planned, then we are open to change too.

Now, I won’t post for the rest of the weekend, but I had to get that off my chest. The movers are going to be here in 30 minutes so I need to go scramble to get things ready.

Your position as in this is what A-net is doing. This being the case, your position is to remove the jewel under the auspice that balance is achieved by minimizing large variations. Yet you contradict yourself by adding more variation (traits, sigils, and runes) Thus you posted a thread where people are having that discussion. In the past, you have completely ignored/dismissed that sentiment altogether.

A-net vs the community? This is the overwhelming feel I get, when I see things like perplexity runes make their way into the game followed with, “we knew it was a touchy subject.” Every step of the way you guys stumble through things, yet here we are still supporting you. We don’t have to, we want to. However, when we see the same mistakes over and over again why should we.

With the previous removal of glory boosters, refunds were offered for those who purchased them via credit card/gems. Being that you are now introducing pvp trait unlocks and universal wardrobes. Are refunds going to be offered to those who purchased characters slots?

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

It is confusing for me to see this kind of mixed messaging. A ton of people agreed in that thread that there are too many moving parts in this game to balance it well enough. Now you guys are in here saying that removing jewels equates to dumbing the game down.

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

How about you guys do us a favor and implement a PTR so things can be tested. Instead you break things on live and force us to wait 8-9 months before something is even “shaved”.

I find it a bit curious that NOW you quote a forum post, being that is supports your position (even moderately at best). Yet, all the other posts (hello skyhammer and skyhammer farming threads) were thought of as not valid enough.

I think Justin touched base with the major part of the confusion. If you’re going to dumb down the game, why introduce new traits? Why introduce new sigils and runes? Why not just make heroes, with no build diversity and call it a day? And Jonathan, if it such a minor part of your build, why remove it?

You guys (meaning A-Net) are amazing, it’s like watching a new born giraffe tripping over itself trying to walk…you fix lyssa (great!) only to introduce this rune set. My God.

Arganthium.5638:

What did you want me to post? An in-depth analysis of why of those abilities provides mobility or decreases enemy mobility and is thus relevant to your question

Well then, here’s your evidence…http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/ put in thief as the profession and have fun looking up abilities. Be sure to mix and match weapon sets and traits at random.

Arganthium.5638:

I gave you a source to look for what you wanted to find (or, given what your comments have consisted of as of late, what you didn’t want to find). I then proceeded to provide additional evidence to answer your question that did not involve providing a source to look at.

A source for what? To look at abilities and pull another topic that wasn’t discussed? Area denial and movement control…Here:

Choking Gas
Pistol Whip
Body Shot
Disabling Shot
Withdraw
Headshot
Infiltraitors strike etc etc etc…

Arganthium.5638:

Sorry? I fail to see how answering your request for “suggestions… on how as any other profession you get to bring the same mobility… as any other berserker build compared to that of an S/D thief” with a series of abilities that show how other professions can get the same amount of mobility as an S/D thief is laughable. .

You even trying to compare thief mobility to that of others is what is laughable.

Sorry, I guess I missed the memo that we were now considering Electric Discharge (with an incredible damage coefficient of 0.7!1!!1) a “burst” skill. Even with Lightning Strike (which becomes significantly more predictable after the attunement change and Electric Discharge), you’re still hitting for less than a Level 1 Eviscerate.
.

I’m not sure if you’re serious, or you really are not that versed with the burst potential of a fresh air ele…

Arganthium.5638:

Imagine you bursted at random times (as opposed to specific times) while fighting a thief. Now, say that the thief evades (for example) 50% of all damage (which is being extremely optimistic- or pessimistic, depending on your point of view). Are you implying that you would hit your bursts 50% of the time when you burst at random, but almost never when you burst at specific times? Because if that’s the case (with largely non-telegraphed bursts, granted), then you’ve got a serious problem with your skill level. .

The point is, with other berserker builds vs thief…you need to set up your burst. Accompanied by the many “outs” a thief has to respond to the largely telegraphed burst it isn’t even a comparison. The thief will avoid the burst potential from other berserker builds at a larger rate than the other way around. Conversely a thief will land their burst at a higher rate because of the shorter turn around times on their set up. Hey…I missed my pistol whip steal…I’ll just use it again and use inf sig to land it. I would assume someone claiming to be at your level would understand this.

Arganthium.5638:

Now, we could go back to this argument about telegraphed bursts, but again, how many bursts are really that telegraphed? And how often is that telegraph a problem? I provided you reasons why the telegraph on Mind Wrack isn’t always a bad thing (and can sometimes be a good thing). I gave you an example of a burst on Guardian that was extremely quick. I mean… If bursts are so telegraphed, then why do burst builds even exist? Bursts, by definition, are few and far between, and most builds have evasion/vigor, protection, Distortion, teleportation, invuln, etc. as defensive mechanics in their kitten nal. Bursts have to be fairly rapid in their consecutive executions in order to overcome these mechanics, but then they stop becoming burst builds and are much closer to GC/DPS builds, and if that’s the case, then that “burst damage” stops becoming burst damage and simply starts becoming a build’s regular damage..

I don’t know where you are going with this. Same with your next section.

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

stuff

Lol every high LB ranked people wants thief nerfed, i main thief and i want it nerfed.

The point is KNOWING what is wrong and what is fine.

A thief 2 shotting you is fine, it was able to one shot guards in the past ( it needed ITS EXECUTION TIME slowered, and in fact it happened), anyone crying about thief damage is really a scrub and should seriously l2p.

What is NOT it’s thief survivability and capability to decide engagements.

The second one, mentioned by karsaib, is what defines the thief and can’t be nerfed.

Its survivability received small buffs which become huge in the long run: ini buff ( disabling shot spam), Mug nerf ( 2k heal) and Slieght of hand ( steal every 20 secs CD).

THESE are things that should be looked at.

Not pistol whip, not ini regen ( tough it wasn’t really a needed buff but whatever), not damage.

Not even our overpowered utilities like shadow refuge and shadowstep, because they’re not gamebreaking and poor design.

Unlike shortbow 3 spam or multi-tasking-1button- istant skill on a 20 secs CD.

I’ll say it again.

aftercast on disabling shot

Sleight of hand fixed to 30 secs

Mug nerf reverted with slight decrease to damage

Thief fixed.

Your recommendations are no more valid than any other one and that’s the point of the forums to propose ideas and have a discussion. There is no right or wrong answer, it’s what we view to be most beneficial. I’ve stated the slight areas which stand to improve the game play of other professions berserker builds. I just don’t know where you get the idea that some how your voice means more than others.

Mrbig.8019:

Lol so you really think people can’t play various professions ?

What an intentionally misleading statement that is. Of course I know other people play other professions, as I have already stated I play all 8. You know very well you were intentionally being misleading with your representation that you play necro as a means to disguise your bias as your main is a thief.

Mrbig.8019:

I’m using leaderboards as a “prerequisite” because if you are not good enough to be in it, knowing they’re a joke and you really don’t need to be THAT good to be in it, then you CAN’T have a legit idea about how some stuff plays.

First off, I was in the top 200 in both queues and as I have stated; it is nothing more than glorified hotjoin. You can check my name, remove one L. However; using that is a prerequisite after CONDEMING someone else for doing it just goes to show the level of personality we are dealing with here. NO ONE TAKES LEADERBOARDS SERIOUSLY and is the LAST THING that should be used as a means to established someone is or is not making a valid point. It’s extremely laughable using your logic; as it would mean that anyone higher than on the boards would be more correct than you if they came on and said…thieves needed adjustments and you would then have to concede to that idea.

Mrbig.8019:

Thief burst IS a skill shot because it has a build up, especially now that nobody runs quickness u-skills ( like in the past when the burst was quickened steal-stab+ HS and the thief couldn’t even be seen, and THAT was a problem).

End of discussion with you. If you think thief burst is a skill shot, I’m no longer willing to continue this conversation with you. There is no aiming no prediction of movement on the part of a thief….in short, guaranteeing your burst through a teleport or gap closer (that you don’t even aim) is not a skill shot.

Mrbig.8019:

When i play team q with my guildies ( very rare, since i mostly solo pug) we ALWAYS know where opponent’s thief is, in order to avoid backcapping or ( guess what) being bursted down by the full combo ( when they play D/P) and usually it comes down to thief pressuring the other thief, engaging a side 1vs1.

If you’re not able to do this, than it’s your fault, if you can’t follow the thief then don’t expect people to take your opinion seriously, because it’s seriously a l2p issue.).

What does this have to do with anything? Even in your own statement you’ve already recognized that it is one thief pressuring another thief and not another berserker build pressuring the thief…and the reason is that thieves make other berserkers obsolete.

Mrbig.8019:

Your claims agains thieves have no foundation, it’s more of a personal hate.

This is beyond laughable. Personal hate? I play thief and rather extensively. I also play every other profession and am speaking for the experience of those other professions playing against thieves. Your problem is you are so short sighted and are swayed by your limited exposure to only a few professions; your thief being your main.

Arganthium.5638:

C’mon, man, just read what I said. I said that it isn’t evidence that S/D is OP in one sentence, and then stated that, if anything, it is evidence to the contrary in another sentence.?

Am I in the Twilight Zone? You’re saying exactly what I said…

Arganthium.5638:

Those arguments mean absolutely nothing without the evidence to back them up..

I take it from your follow up session that your “evidence” consists of listing abilities. I can list abilities as well, but I’ll differ to the people who have already listed them.

Arganthium.5638:

I’ve written lots about this in the past, you can just go through my past posts if you’re really that interested. ..

I don’t understand you…“HEY GIVE ME EVIDENCE!” When asked for evidence to support your position, “I’ve provided it previously”

Arganthium.5638:

Mesmer- has nearly the same amount of mobility via Blink, Portal, Phase Retreat, and Curtain (if you’re a Focus user). Can also largely impede enemy mobility via CC, immobilize, cripple, chill (for certain disruption builds). Has a longer attack range than thief (1200 versus our maximum 900).

Guardian- can have a lot of mobility via Flashing Blade/LoFaith (for Sword and GS users, respectively) combined with JI. Can also impede mobility via CC and area-denial.

Elementalist- has a ton of mobility/mobility-impeding skills, such as:

• Lightning Flash
• Burning Retreat
• Frozen Ground
• Gust
• Windborne Speed
• Static Field
• Unsteady Ground
• Shockwave
• Burning Speed
• Frozen Burst
• Shocking Aura (sometimes)
• Magnetic Grasp/ Leap
• Frost Aura (sometimes)
• RTL
• Updraft
• Earthquake

And so on.

I guess we’re just going to list abilities now…I just have to laugh at that one.

Arganthium.5638:

Lol what? Eles don’t have large telegraphs to their bursts?

Are you saying Fresh Air has large telegraphs? Or are you saying you think I said that eles do have large telegraph?

Arganthium.5638:

S/D is hardly able to be considered a “burst” build in the first place. The only attack it has with a decently high coefficient is LS, and LS is always preceded by FS anyways. If nothing else, that is a massive telegraph. Otherwise, the weapon coefficients on other skills aren’t nearly high enough to qualify them as being bursts.

Not sure what point this served

Arganthium.5638:

… The thief doesn’t have some kind of perms-evasion on,.

And there’s the problem having this discussion with you…with the large telegraphs of other professions burst, the s/d thief though not “perma-evasion” is near “perma-evasion” to avoid too much of the burst of other professions.

The problem with having discussions with people like you is that you have ONE horse in this race; others have 8.

Arganthium.5638:

Lordrosicky.5813:

S/D is still ridiculously overpowered because it does massive damage whilst be even harder to target than a bunker guardian is. Any build dishing out massive damage should be balanced around the fact that the other team can counter play it by focusing that target. S/D this is impossible. That is why it is still really overpowered.

Show me one vid (post December 10th) where this is the case. I can crush S/D thieves on any of my five toons. S/D is extremely easy to focus, especially since cripple, chill, and immobilize are all devastating against the build. Its sole defensive mechanic isn’t even that strong- certainly hardly any stronger than, for example, protection, given the damage loss required to maintain large amounts of evasion, and the fact that it is S/D’s only defensive mechanic.

Even if the build is harder to kill than a bunker, it certainly isn’t harder to defeat- you can easily decap/cap against an S/D build.

Pyriall.5027:

S/D compared to S/P and D/P may not be too strong, but it certainly is relative to other berserker builds.

Really? Why is that? You people are quick to make these kinds of claims, but there’s literally nothing to support them. I run zerker on all of my toons, and I can still beat S/D builds. Heck, the only argument I’ve ever seen for S/D being “OP” was a tournament in which Helseth was supposedly getting destroyed by Sizer, who was constantly harassing him. In reality, if you took three seconds to analyze the gameplay (rather than say “look! Sizer is 1v1’ing Helseth! Therefore S/D is OP”, as most people did when they saw the vid), you’d find that the battle between the mesmer and Sizer was very even, perhaps even in Helseth’s favor when you consider the fact that Sizer was doing nothing for his team.

So, you’re saying the match up of Sizer vs Helseth isn’t proof in one statement and then saying it is proof to support your position in the next?

People have given you reasons as to why it is strong, you just choose not to listen. Compared to all other berserker builds S/D is still strong. Feel free to offer up some suggestions and videos on how as any other profession you get to bring the same mobility and impact for your team as any other berserker build compared to that of an S/D thief. Outside of an elementalist every other berserker profession has huge telegraphs to their burst. An S/D has so many options to handle that (between teleports and evasions). You’re hardly going to be able to lock down an S/D thief as any other berserker build. If you don’t have random AoE flying around, you’re not hitting them with your burst.

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

ens.9854:

Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.

I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.

I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.

Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades

Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).

Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.

Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.

Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).

This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.

And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.

S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.

Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.

Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).

A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.

Thief burst is not a skill shot…What are you on about? Currently there are so many teleports to make sure you land your burst it is nigh impossible to miss it. If you do miss it; don’t worry you’ll be able to try again in a very short period of time.

This because traited steal is on a 20 secs CD.

Bringing it at 30 secs CD with no further reductions would solve this issue.

2 teleports both on 30 secs CD.

This would also nerf fury and swiftness uptime, and stability ripping, and also with mug no longer healing, sustain.

Thief isssue is that it has too much sustain for the damage it deals, a thief specced for damage shouldn’t be able to go 1vs1 against basically all classes aside engeneers.

In the old days if i went 1vs1 i would have died to all classes if i did a single mistake ( on D/P), now perfectly played D/P beats almost everything, so we should ask….

What has really changed ?

We all know the answer, and the issues are ini regen, sleight of hand and disabling shot.

use your brain.

Don’t come in here telling people to use their brain when you’ve already lied about what profession you play: Necro (thief main) and then followed that up trying to associate skill with leaderboards as a prerequisite to have a conversation. Then, don’t get me started on your claim that thief burst is a skill shot.

Mrbig.8019:

ens.9854:

Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.

I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.

I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.

Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades

Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).

Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.

Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.

Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).

This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.

And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.

S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.

Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.

Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).

A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.

Thief burst is not a skill shot…What are you on about? Currently there are so many teleports to make sure you land your burst it is nigh impossible to miss it. If you do miss it; don’t worry you’ll be able to try again in a very short period of time.

Mrbig.8019:

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

Arganthium.5638:

Lordrosicky.5813:

I doubt anet will nerf lyssa runes, which actually would help the game a ton seen as all the OP builds (all warrior and thief) totally abuse these runes.

Yeah, because having a full-out condi clear (like some other classes, such as engineer and guardian) while also having a severe lack of traits and utilities that condi clear (or clear only very specific condis) as well as some generally ineffective boons for 5 seconds in exchange for a terrible elite and four wasted abilities on runes… Talk about OP’ness right there.

The thing to remember is that (imo) the best 3 roamer builds in the game are thief. S/p, S/d and D/p are all too strong right now. You can’t just nerf pistol whip into oblivion because it doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is way deeper than that.

Woah, wait- S/D is “too strong” right now? When was the last time you saw an S/D thief in tournament play? For me, well over half a year ago. I still play the weapon set because I enjoy it, but you just don’t see the weapon set being used in tournament play any more. Though if you’d like to provide some other type of “proof” that S/D is “too strong”, I’d be happy to show you the evidence I’ve provided to the contrary. Even Helseth can’t seem to find any argument against S/D outside of just shouting at people like me.

I would love to see them just hit around 10 thief skills/utilities. I still think if this happened thief would be more than viable. It is so inherently strong that anet shouldn’t, in theory, be concerned with overnerfing it.

Such as?

The only way I would accept thief not being nerfed in the upcoming patch is if lyysa runes receive a big nerf. Removing stab and aegis does only a little. I would like to see the 6th part be put on a 70 second icd. This alone would make thieves require a ton more skill to be used profitably. No “second wind” from lyysa runes being abused.

Thieves suffer from condis (especially movement-impeding conditions) way more than every other class in the game. I’d be okay with the buffs being removed (or condis being turned into buffs), but to put a 70s ICD on the 6th ability would kill thief. We generally have pretty terrible condi removal (especially since IR was given an insanely long cast time), and we already have to sacrifice a lot just to accept taking Lyssa in the first place. Personally, if it wasn’t for the condi clear, I would much rather take either Ogre’s or Scholar’s.

With the fact that all thieve specs are OP, I actually like the idea to just nerf their profession mechanic. A nerf to steal would be a really good change for the game.

Yeah, P/P, P/D, SB, and S/D builds are all super OP.

How would a nerf to steal help you? You seem to be largely claims without evidence or reasoning, and to be honest, I fail to see how such a linear mechanic like Steal makes thief specs “OP”.

S/D compared to S/P and D/P may not be too strong, but it certainly is relative to other berserker builds.

Sampo.9678:

Zenith.7301:

You seriously think you will land frostbow 5 on any living being?

You would be surprised how many actually get hit by frostbow 5 in hotjoin.

It’s not just hot join…

Zenith.7301:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You seriously think you will land frostbow 5 on any living being? And what do you do after a frostbow 4 and your opponent is alive? Pelt them with frostbow arrows for 400 damage? Tickle them with earth attunement autoattacks?

It’s not hard to land…

apt.9184:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

Yea I agree with you in general the initiative regen buff really made thieves just so effective atm it makes every other glass cannon obsolete. PW became so much better with reduction of time it takes for full pw and initiative buff made thief able to spam skills with little risk. It also makes it more mobile since you can short bow 5 further with more initiative regen. I feel if initiative regen was reverted that would fix the problems right now.

It wasn’t the initiative regen buff. That only exacerbated the situation. There were plenty of s/p thieves playing prior to that buff. The problem is inherent to the thief profession and its mechanics.

Early in the thread I outlined the poison on steal and 900 range initial blind application on blinding powder. Those are just some small things, but similar to the elementalist it is a combination of those small things that make them the kings of the berserker builds. I’m sure we can build a laundry list of little things that could/should be adjusted. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like the featured patch will address any of those issues.

It’s ok to have a king, but it’s not ok to have such a large discrepancy between the king and the next best berserker build. If you evaluate some of the other builds, excluding thief, they are pretty close to each other balance wise. Some off more burst at the expense of providing group utility and others may provide more mobility and offer less burst. At least with the other professions there is a tradeoff.

style.6173:

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?

It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.

They aren’t going to completely redesign a class at this point. Better to look at incremental fixes. Removing the evade or the stun would add more counter play and increase the thief skill cap a bit.

That’s not what I’m asking. You say it isn’t initiative, so if it wasn’t for the repeated use would you still feel the same?

style.6173:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?

It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.

Admiral Zombie.8624:

I know there was some hate for the idea of unlocking skills/traits in another thread. To me that is a little ridiculous thing to get up in arms about. Looking back on GW1 that system worked just fine, and there were tons more to unlock.

But again looking at the GW1 system, I think it would be a huge shame if skill and trait unlocks are character bound, rather than account bound like GW1.

We’re seeing a bunch of changes so that things are account bound in other areas of the game (Dyes just released today, as well as armor and weapon skins.) So while it may not be account bound planned at this moment, I do have hope that Anet would keep the system of account bound the same across the game.

It would be reasonable to have account bound for sPvP at least, and not so for PvE and WvW. Those being so much more profitable than sPvP I would be fine with that. Working to unlock things for sPvP can be slower so long as you only have to ever unlock it once to be used in sPvP.

EDIT: Also, I hope the decision isn’t made purely based on how often people reroll characters now for sPvP. The system already discourages rerolling with the current system for skins and dyes.

Once the recently announced armor/dye system goes through, people will be far more likely to reroll what would be just sPvP characters I believe, so using the data for rerolling now may be significantly different later.

They have stated the reason for unlocks as not wanting to confuse new players. That’s a crock. So once you have removed that line to thinking, there is no good reason to keep unlocks in pvp as part of the game.

Just to clarify, I’ll tell you why it’s a bunch of bologna. There is absolutely no “tutorials” for new pvp players and they’re already allowed to be thrust right into the current game systems of hotjoin and ranked matches.

Mrbig.8019:

I play power necro in top 100 solo q.

Mrbig.8019:

I main thief ( from beta)…

Mrbig.8019:

I hate this attitude.

Solo q ranking is a joke and usin it as some form of entitlment is ridicolous.

Much Confusion
Very Lie

Trigr.6481:

Justin ODell.9517:

As an altoholic, I feel your pain. I’ll need to take a look at the data tomorrow, find out just how common re-rolling is for PvPers.

The fact that this is even a thing that’s up for discussion is beyond me. The whole reason why SPvP was ever a invitation to begin with was because of the simple fact that once you’re in heart of the mists, you have access to everything. Period. No chance of being disappointed if the class is something different from what you expected, and minimal time is wasted. But now you think it’s a good idea to technically “tax” the new content in which you add to the game and think it’s a type of progression when it comes to SPvP?

Theory crafting builds should be fun, not a chore. Not to mention easy access to switching builds instead of relying on character swaps every time you feel like changing something in your build, god forbid. What you’re doing is going to backfire in the long run in my opinion if this keeps up.

Countless

Backfire in the long run? That ship has sailed…pvp population is non-existent.

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

Surferboy.1649:

to pyriall, do you know how much initiative skill 5 costs? you can’t barely do anything after it any more. and it blinds once per second, as soon as you use an attack like 100b you will still hit the thief.

.

Yes I know how much it costs. I also have the benefit of playing over 1000 games on every profession in every build imaginable. The common theme is that no matter what berserker build you play (outside of dps guardian), thieves make obsolete. Given their role in a team match they also make dps guardian obsolete. As I stated previously, not all professions can overload the blind with a multiple hit ability.

As to the thief doing anything after dropping it…all you need to do is auto attack out of it. If you are using dagger, you’ll have the added benefit of putting poison on your opponent. If sword, you’ll apply weakness and cripple. All the while you regain initiative.

Dude pls, stop this nonsense.

You’ve literally no clue about the thief profession and i really hope aNet won’t listen to people like you ( sad part is they do).

The only problem is, I actually play this game. Where as you obviously do not. You’re just another one of those delusional players who mistakes your success on thief as skill when in reality it is the broken nature of the thief profession as a whole.

Here’s your chance to prove me wrong. Go play another berserker build non-thief on a team and show me how skilled you were against them. I’ll wait here.

I play power necro in top 100 solo q.

And also in team q, where i’m around 300-400 tough playing mostly as a solo player.

Sadly i can’t find you nor in EU neither in NA solo or team q ( really didn’t want to pick up this argument, but whatever).

learn how to play the game properly before spouting nonsense.

I’ve been top 200 in both team and solo que. I’m not sure why you bring this up. Both queues are nothing more than glorified hotjoin.

What nonsense? I’ve played every single power build you can play and every one of them is made obsolete by thieves.

Exactly.

To be in leaderboard you don’t even be to need THAT competitive.

Still i can’t find you there.

This should show how good you are, if you can’t even be in leaderboard in this ridicolous state.

Get better, than you may legitimately post.

Thank you.

ROFL really? This isn’t my main account. That was permabanned for reposting something Helseth said. RUH ROH…Your argument just went up in flames.

Justin ODell.9517:

Simplest answer I can give is that it just isn’t as high a priority as other things we have been working on.

Why do you feel custom arenas do not work for those that want to duel?

Because you are limited to the people already within those arenas. There is no spontaneity and you lose a potential for community growth. In previous games, there was always a large group of people just hanging out and talking/dueling. You lose that sense of community by not having it.

Even guilds in this game don’t serve the same purpose as others.

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

Surferboy.1649:

to pyriall, do you know how much initiative skill 5 costs? you can’t barely do anything after it any more. and it blinds once per second, as soon as you use an attack like 100b you will still hit the thief.

.

Yes I know how much it costs. I also have the benefit of playing over 1000 games on every profession in every build imaginable. The common theme is that no matter what berserker build you play (outside of dps guardian), thieves make obsolete. Given their role in a team match they also make dps guardian obsolete. As I stated previously, not all professions can overload the blind with a multiple hit ability.

As to the thief doing anything after dropping it…all you need to do is auto attack out of it. If you are using dagger, you’ll have the added benefit of putting poison on your opponent. If sword, you’ll apply weakness and cripple. All the while you regain initiative.

Dude pls, stop this nonsense.

You’ve literally no clue about the thief profession and i really hope aNet won’t listen to people like you ( sad part is they do).

The only problem is, I actually play this game. Where as you obviously do not. You’re just another one of those delusional players who mistakes your success on thief as skill when in reality it is the broken nature of the thief profession as a whole.

Here’s your chance to prove me wrong. Go play another berserker build non-thief on a team and show me how skilled you were against them. I’ll wait here.

I play power necro in top 100 solo q.

And also in team q, where i’m around 300-400 tough playing mostly as a solo player.

Sadly i can’t find you nor in EU neither in NA solo or team q ( really didn’t want to pick up this argument, but whatever).

learn how to play the game properly before spouting nonsense.

I’ve been top 200 in both team and solo que. I’m not sure why you bring this up. Both queues are nothing more than glorified hotjoin.

What nonsense? I’ve played every single power build you can play and every one of them is made obsolete by thieves.

evilapprentice.6379:

Pyriall.5027:

evilapprentice.6379:

style.6173:

Pyriall.5027:

Poison on steal needs to go as well as the 900 range blind on black powder. The blind pulse on black powder needs to be adjusted as well. There are two abilities that deal with blind, one on engi and warrior. Not every profession can over load the blind, and thieves should not be immune to melee damage because they decided to hit 5.

The blindness is only for the first hit. As you know, most melee players are smart enough at this point not to just stand in the black powder.

Psssst, He doesn’t know that. His earlier post specifically mentions how most classes can’t “hack through the constant blind reapplications”. He can make all the arguments and propose all the hypotheticals in the world, but not knowing that makes it impossible to take his opinion seriously.

Pssst…I actually play this game.

I dont think this phrase means what you think it means. You keep saying it then directly contradicting it by saying things nobody who’s played this game for more than a week would say. Your opinions betray you – anyone can say “I actually play this game”, but if you weren’t aware that you can melee a thief sitting in a BP without touching the effect itself, it’s abundantly clear that you have a incomplete grasp on very basic game mechanics regardless of the amount of time you’ve “played the game”.

Your assertions are the kind that anyone with a weeks experience know are incorrect, inaccurate, or downright fabrications. You’re mouth is saying “I’m knowledgeable about this game”, but your understanding of basic mechanics is saying “I have no idea what I’m doing”.

Your assertions that the non-thief is the only one who knows how to play around BP is astoundingly short sighted and lends itself to proving you actually don’t play.