Guild Wars 2

XRay.1920:

pyro are you sure about those numbers? I did some testing after the patch yday and it seemed to me that the base hp was around 5.5k, 8k with SoI, and something like 9k with SoI and trait :o

I have not tested the post-patch hp. Those numbers are purely off of pre-patch hp + the stated changes.

Nothing wrong with it as a bit of additional damage. If, however, it was meant to actually provide a real choice between moving and taking more damage, it fails miserably.

Just tried it in a pvp match with the same traits as godmoney. It worked. Currently untraiting then going to try again.

It’s not a trait issue. I used the same traits as godmoney on the target golems in the pvp area and got only 1 clone spawn. Still trying to replicate it.

So, this was a pretty big change as you all know, and we actually plan to do a live streamed patch podcast on it this weekend. In the interest of doing what’s best for all of you, I’d like to get some sort of an idea of time constraints that many of you have during the weekend so we can better plan our time.

Zaxares.5419:

Is it really?? If true… Well, that changes my entire perspective that this update has largely been a nerf for Mesmers who focus on Clones/Phantasms for their playstyle. Scepter would truly be the weapon for those who are focused on Shatter-spam for damage/mitigations.

I’m about 99% sure this is a bug, not an intended change.

There is no change dawdler. MoP healing has always been a strong component of many support builds.

There is no change here.

bobross.5034:

I believe blurred frenzy also used to protect from condi damag (i.e. no ticks of bleeding while blurring). that is also gone.

That is incorrect. If you had conditions on you, they would still tick.

@cyrrix: Numbers should now be accurate.

Hexxen.7216:

Vengeful Images now get 5 seconds and doesn’t reapply. Ouch. ><

Yep, I’m considering the ramifications/modifications that will force onto my build.

jportell.2197:

AndrewSX.3794:

jportell.2197:

Yes that is how it works. It is amazing now.

Inbefore:

-Fixed a bug where Prismatic Understanding was giving out unintended boons. Now it apply 5 stack of vulnerability (30 sec duration) per second.

Wait PU gives vulnerability on targets around Mesmer? I did not see that

That was a sarcastic comment about how stealthing would apply vulnerability to yourself.

Just a bunch of numbers I ran regarding phantasm hp. Helpful for anyone who wants to check them quickly.

Prior to the patch
Normal phantasm base hp: 2080
With trait + SoIll: 6656
Defender base hp: 5400
With trait + SoIll: 17280

Changes in PvE (assuming increasing by 270% equates to a modifier of x3.7)
Base hp: 7696
With trait + SoIll: 13083
Defender base: 19980
With trait +SoIll: 33900

Changes in PvP and WvW (assuming increasing by 55% equates to a modifier of 1.55)
Base hp: 3224
With trait + SoIll: 5480
Defender base: 8370
With trait + SoIll: 14229

curtegg.5216:

In simple terms: Blurred Frenzy will now no longer work against the Fractal JadeMaw’s laser beam attack…sadness.

I’d like to see confirmation on this one.

It’s not something that you’ll choose not to take, being a 5 point minor in a strong support traitline. They may as well have removed it completely though, it no longer has any effect on any build in any way.

skcamow.3527:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Jester.1236:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Jester.1236:

No one knows how powerful the interrupt builds are going to be yet. I doubt in the past few hours anyone has completely geared there character and learned the rotation. The buff to PU was pretty huge. Making a lot of stealth builds even better. The same thing with Torment, you all have been using it for a couple hours tops. Maybe try it for a week before you start condemning it.

They did add diversity. Most of the people complaining are angry because of one trait move. And that’s it.

When I saw the leaked notes, I decided to test interrupts. The problem is that it’s nearly impossible to interrupt a skill with less than .75 second cast time. You can still use a lockdown build or w/e, bu the problem is that the majority of the time you will not actually be getting interrupts.

You tested the build. Without any of the new abilities. Pyro you are one of the best build creators on this forum. I find it hard to believe someone as creative as you cannot work with these buffs, and work around one change.

I tested interrupts themselves. Since I’ve never had a reason to use interrupts before, I didn’t really know how they worked. The results were pretty clear. There are some skills that can be interrupted, but if it has under a .75s cast time, it is impossible to interrupt without simply getting lucky. Some class builds have more of these long skills, warriors come to mind, but most don’t. Since the most basic foundation of an interrupt build —the interrupts-- don’t really function well, the actual build itself can not function all that effectively either.

Did you test using Chaos Storm or Focus Pulls? Those two, coupled with the occasional F3 shatter provided mounds of boons and extended duration (if you already had the boon) when using bountiful interruption. Now with the “buff” to the trait, there won’t be quite as many boons, just more might and a single random boon.

As effective using those methods were for interrupts, with the changes I can see maintaining very high might stacks using the same build. Haven’t tested it out yet to validate though.

They still run into the same problem as any other type of interrupt. There are very few skills you can actually interrupt on purpose. Yes, using ItV in a zerg or chaos storm might get you some interrupts (provided they don’t have stability), but ultimately what do those interrupts do? Why would you run that build? For a chance to do still underwhelming damage and stack some boons that you probably already have?

gvaughn.4163:

Agreed. I’m shelving my mesmer. This patch was yet another in a string of disappointments for both this class and this game.

I’d love to be able to say that I’m shelving my mesmer until fixes are made, but I can’t. I may dabble with alts, but if I don’t play a mesmer, I don’t play this game. I’m not quite ready to throw in the towel yet, and I’m just hoping anet doesn’t do anything to push me towards that even more.

Jester.1236:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Jester.1236:

No one knows how powerful the interrupt builds are going to be yet. I doubt in the past few hours anyone has completely geared there character and learned the rotation. The buff to PU was pretty huge. Making a lot of stealth builds even better. The same thing with Torment, you all have been using it for a couple hours tops. Maybe try it for a week before you start condemning it.

They did add diversity. Most of the people complaining are angry because of one trait move. And that’s it.

When I saw the leaked notes, I decided to test interrupts. The problem is that it’s nearly impossible to interrupt a skill with less than .75 second cast time. You can still use a lockdown build or w/e, bu the problem is that the majority of the time you will not actually be getting interrupts.

You tested the build. Without any of the new abilities. Pyro you are one of the best build creators on this forum. I find it hard to believe someone as creative as you cannot work with these buffs, and work around one change.

I tested interrupts themselves. Since I’ve never had a reason to use interrupts before, I didn’t really know how they worked. The results were pretty clear. There are some skills that can be interrupted, but if it has under a .75s cast time, it is impossible to interrupt without simply getting lucky. Some class builds have more of these long skills, warriors come to mind, but most don’t. Since the most basic foundation of an interrupt build —the interrupts-- don’t really function well, the actual build itself can not function all that effectively either.

Jester.1236:

No one knows how powerful the interrupt builds are going to be yet. I doubt in the past few hours anyone has completely geared there character and learned the rotation. The buff to PU was pretty huge. Making a lot of stealth builds even better. The same thing with Torment, you all have been using it for a couple hours tops. Maybe try it for a week before you start condemning it.

They did add diversity. Most of the people complaining are angry because of one trait move. And that’s it.

When I saw the leaked notes, I decided to test interrupts. The problem is that it’s nearly impossible to interrupt a skill with less than .75 second cast time. You can still use a lockdown build or w/e, bu the problem is that the majority of the time you will not actually be getting interrupts.

Titanimite.2534:

Agreed Aveneo, ANet is trying to kill the Mesmer

I don’t think they’re trying to kill the Mesmer, I’ll give them that much. I just feel that they’re significantly out of touch with how this class works and what is needed.

Yeah, just noticed my post is buried in the second page now. I’m going to repost it on the forums with an additional explanation of why it should not be merged again, mods be kitten ed.

fadeaway.2807:

Dasboba.1652:

It’s a shame they buried your well written formal complaint into a thread that will soon be 10 pages deep.

I’m happy to repost it under a different title and risk the mod wrath.

Won’t accomplish anything unfortunately. I already messaged the mods requesting it be unmerged, fwiw.

Ayrilana.1396:

Their HP was buffed 270%.

That is phantasms, not clones.

Zumi.6384:

Completely agree. The one thing I’m unsure of is how this patch nerfed condition builds further. I’m just as upset (and insulted, frankly) as you are, but I’m curious what you see that nerfs conditions?

The illusionists celerity nerf is the condition nerf. Most condition builds use a combination of clones + sharper images + debilitating dissipation to keep up condition pressure. Now, clone generating skills have 25% higher cooldowns unless you go 25 points into illusions, and most condition builds couldn’t afford that much without sacrificing one of the other important parts. This means that if condition builds want that cooldown to keep up the clone generation, they’ll need to sacrifice significantly in other ways.

JoopFOX.9510:

I’ve been testing this on golems for around an hour with zerkers and swordsmen, and the trait seems to have 0 effect. However, since the effect should be small I’d still like some feedback if other people noticed the same and then we can voice this and hopefully get a fix ASAP. With Illusionary Celerity moved to GM minor trait it’s absolutely necessary that “Haste” is working in order to get some viable builds for phantamesmer.

It has always been broken for swordsmen. If it is now broken for zerker, this is a new bug. I will test this later.

This build is not significantly affected by this patch. The 5 points in illusions could probably get moved to domination or something. This build will still be just as overpowered as before because Anet nerfed the wrong thing to fix it.

Yeah, keep in mind that this is a bug fix, not some present handed down from on high.

The iZerker too. It’s awesome that it now works. Keep in mind, however, it took them 6 months to fix a badly broken skill.

Eridani.8317:

Yeah you flavour of the month guys won’t be missed. The real mesmers will carry on and work with whatever we have. Personally I’m going to enjoy trying out a condition damage build with the changes to scepter skills and traits.

I don’t think anyone would accuse me of being a fotm Mesmer player, and I’m just as kitten ed off as anyone else. The only reason I haven’t written a large analysis of this he is because I’m on my phone, but it’ll show up within the next hour.

Carighan.6758:

Before this change there is one Phantasm build clearly superior to the others. After this change there is one Phantasm build clearly superior to the others.

This is absolutely false. There are several different very viable phantasm builds. You can choose to put 20 points into illusions for phantasmal haste (as I do in PvE for some very good reasons). You can choose to go deeper into chaos for survivability. You can choose to go deep into dueling for the crit damage and crit chance, or you can sacrifice some of that for more cooldowns on greatsword if you use that. There was a massive amount of diversity in phantasm builds….ruined by this change.

Stranger.2039:

Do I just roll over and die? Running a retaliation spec. There doesn’t seem to be anything I can do against these thieves. I’ve gone against a couple in SPVP and literally all they do is Larcenous Strike. They get the evade bonus and then just rip my boons off faster than I can apply them. Don’t really do enough damage between the evades / my boons on them with my staff or sword. Any ideas?

EDIT: I use Decoy, Defender, and Mirror, and am specced Soldier. Do I have to go null field?

Sounds like you’re using something very similar to my immortal build. In this case, you need to use dodges and blurred frenzy to avoid larcenous strike. You can also use clones or phantasms to bodyblock the attack.

Sinaya.4201:

Scepter / Focus isn’t terrible either, even in PvE.

There’s a lot of Scepter hate on the forum, but the thing that I think we tend to forget is that the Scepter is our only main hand option that allows consistent ranged damage and an off-hand weapon together.

We don’t forget this. We simply resent the fact that the only weapon that allows for ranged damage coupled with an offhand is absolutely horrible.

TooBz.3065:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Sinaya.4201:

Actually, I have a question about the iMage.

How does it work when you have the Cleansing Conflagration (Domination IX, 20% reduced Torch Skill cooldown, and Torch Skills remove conditions) trait?

I understand that you clear a condition on yourself when you use the Prestige, but do you also get a condition removed when you cast the iMage? Or does the iMage’s auto attack clear conditions on targets too?

I’m at work so I can’t really test this right now, but I’m curious as to how that trait works exactly… it might make it a slightly more viable Disenchanter-like Phantasm if he actually cures stuff too when traited.

(Thanks to Kate Austinmer on Crystal Desert for pointing this out!)

I believe that it cleanses on the cast, and the bolt will cleanse as well.

Basically it becomes a disenchanter on a 3x longer cooldown that attacks 3x slower, clears half as many conditions, doesn’t remove boons, and requires 20 trait points + a major trait.

Oooh… sign me up.

I thought you might like it.

Sinaya.4201:

Actually, I have a question about the iMage.

How does it work when you have the Cleansing Conflagration (Domination IX, 20% reduced Torch Skill cooldown, and Torch Skills remove conditions) trait?

I understand that you clear a condition on yourself when you use the Prestige, but do you also get a condition removed when you cast the iMage? Or does the iMage’s auto attack clear conditions on targets too?

I’m at work so I can’t really test this right now, but I’m curious as to how that trait works exactly… it might make it a slightly more viable Disenchanter-like Phantasm if he actually cures stuff too when traited.

(Thanks to Kate Austinmer on Crystal Desert for pointing this out!)

I believe that it cleanses on the cast, and the bolt will cleanse as well.

Basically it becomes a disenchanter on a 3x longer cooldown that attacks 3x slower, clears half as many conditions, doesn’t remove boons, and requires 20 trait points + a major trait.

TooBz.3065:

grimmson.9154:

there was a time in beta where the iMage was totally overpowered and destroyed everything! therefore they have to be very very carefull not to make it too powerfull again!

but yeah torment or burning would be sweet

iMage may have been overpowered at one point, but this is not binary “don’t feed him after midnight” scenario. It’s not like a little buff will turn the iMage into a monster.

The iMage is objectively pathetic and could use some kind of love.

grimmson is completely wrong. There was absolutely no point in the betas that the mage was overpowered and destroyed everything. It used to apply 1 stack of confusion for 8 seconds or something like that. That’s the only difference. It was exactly the same through all 3 beta weekends and through the first few months of the game. The mage was never good.

fadeaway.2807:

Esplen.3940:

Welp, guess it’s time to try that x-x-x-x-25 phant build with phantasmal haste… >.>

Phantasmal haste is broken I’m afraid.

It’s partly broken. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Haste

Curunen.8729:

The Minor Adept trait “Illusionists Celerity” has been made the Minor Grandmaster trait and the other Minor traits have been pushed down.

…

…

Sorry, my jaw just hit the floor.

…

Ah well, something had to be done about that trait, it was very powerful.

A silver lining is now we don’t have to sink 5 points into illusions on builds focused on other trait lines.

Hooray, we don’t have to sink 5 points into illusions for all of our builds. I’m really going to enjoy tossing around these extra 5 points to try and compensate for the 20% cooldown nerf it caused.

TooBz.3065:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

@fadeaway: You’re definitely right. The question is, would you have rathered this or a flat damage nerf?

The 1v1 masses have been roaring for a nerf to phantasms, so Anet had to do something. That 12 second difference is nuts though… but, on the brightside, Phantasms should be lasting longer with Signet of Illusions working properly.

I disagree. ANet didn’t HAVE to do anything. And if they want to do something, they could have not change the trait to 25 pts., if could have been 15 pts.

Of course, confusion didn’t need a 50% nerf either.

That’s accurate. Don’t blame these nerfs on the whiners. Whiners will whine, and that’s more or less an axiom of online games. The responsibility for changes is 100% with the developers.

I’m significantly less worried about the effect this change has on phantasms than the effect it has on everything else. Phantasms are already very strong, and if the SoI does indeed get fixed, phantasms will still be strong.

The issue is everything else. Phase retreat, illusionary leap, mirror blade, decoy, mirror images. All of these highly important skills are getting nerfed because of this.

The issue is that up until this point, all balancing and design has been based off of mesmers having a 20% additional cooldown on all illusion summoning skills. Think back to early levels when you weren’t able to place those 5 points in illusions. Many of your skills feel clunky and slow.

This trait has been absolutely baseline for very nearly every mesmer build in the game. Taking it away doesn’t promote build diversity—-it just nerfs any non-shatter build that can’t be heavily modified to take 25 points in illusions.

If the purpose for this change is to increase build diversity, then it’s the absolute worst idea imaginable. If, on the other hand, the devs really feel that all non-shatter builds need what equates to a 20% nerf…then that’s a different argument that needs to be had.

Sinaya.4201:

Yeah… these “previews” … we’re getting all riled up over unverified, unofficial “leaks,” right? I’m still questioning their validity.

Time will tell!

They might be fake, but if so, someone has quite the sense of humor to muck with something as important as illusionist’s celerity in their ‘leaked’ patch notes.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

AndrewSX.3794:

btw, this means that 2 skill out of 5 weapon skills have a 20% higher CD for all the builds with less than 25 in illusion.

Diversity!

(how am i supposed to try out new grandmasters if i have to drop 25 pts in illusion ,instead of 5 + 20 in dueling for enough clones.)

More like 2/4 or 3/4 for sword/sword. I wouldn’t count auto attack for cooldown reduction. Then Mirror Images, Decoy, phantasm utilties… so easily 5/9 abilities on my bar. At least I’m roll as a shatter mesmer but this does seem way too heavy handed.

This was not mentioned in the previous leaked notes and nothing indicates that these are official. ALSO, we didn’t get any changes in Domination and we were promised at least one change in every line. This preview doesn’t mention the new condition either. So, I think we just need to be patient and pray to lyssa.

Halting strike is in domination.

Edit: That was in the previous ones, I see it’s not in these ones here. Strange, since all the other interrupt traits are listed.

athuria.2751:

Pyroatheist.9031:

The issue with this change isn’t phantasm mesmers—it’s every single other non-shatter build. It does nerf phantasm mesmers, but the irritating thing is that it is a strong nerf to every single other build as well. Condition builds are now even less viable, the shutdown build they seem to be pushing isn’t going to be easily viable…it’s just a flat nerf to every Mesmer build that isn’t shatter.

I wasn’t sure how deep Condi builds (that aren’t Glamour builds) tended to go, because I know Illusionary Elasticity is popular with those that use staff (which is bugged anyway last I heard) but you’re right—it’s a heavy-handed punch to pretty much everything that isn’t shatter, which was already one of our most common builds.

Condie builds won’t go past 20 in illusions because there’s nothing really helpful to condie builds there. That type of build is already thin on trait points because it needs 20 in illusions, 20 in dueling, and 20 in chaos ideally. It doesn’t have a lot of flexibility.

AndrewSX.3794:

btw, this means that 2 skill out of 5 weapon skills have a 20% higher CD for all the builds with less than 25 in illusion.

Diversity!

(how am i supposed to try out new grandmasters if i have to drop 25 pts in illusion ,instead of 5 + 20 in dueling for enough clones.)

It’s a hidden message. You’re not supposed to be diverse, you’re supposed to play shatter.

The issue with this change isn’t phantasm mesmers—it’s every single other non-shatter build. It does nerf phantasm mesmers, but the irritating thing is that it is a strong nerf to every single other build as well. Condition builds are now even less viable, the shutdown build they seem to be pushing isn’t going to be easily viable…it’s just a flat nerf to every Mesmer build that isn’t shatter.

Belenwyn.8674:

Pyroatheist.9031:

This isn’t really a tough question. 10/30/0/25/5 with full berserker gear is the most damage you can do with phantasms.

Maybe we have to change something soon:

The Minor Adept trait “Illusionists Celerity” has been made the Minor Grandmaster trait and the other Minor traits have been pushed down.

http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/editorials/sky-pirates-tyria-traits-preview-part-one

Interesting. If true, that’s an absolutely abysmal change. I can’t think of a single sensible reason to make that change other than increasing the power creep towards shatter builds.

Regardless though, this thread is stupid. Remind me why we’re posting full zerker builds with for no apparent reason? There’s a difference between theorycrafting an interesting build and just tossing full zerker into a build calculator and saying ‘hey guys, I made a build that does damage!!!’

shimmerless.4560:

I’ve said this elsewhere but the “effective power”/“effective health” figures on that site are total smoke and mirrors and I wouldn’t take them seriously at all.

The effective health is actually decent. Effective power is pretty useless though, especially when dealing with a phantasm build.

Lue.6538:

Demon.5082:

I dont really think torment will be that strong in PvE since movement is required for its full potential damage. It will end up like the confusion condition :-(

Do not panic, wait the patch out before deciding what you can do.

Condition Mesmers were average until the staff bouncing logic got messed up. If that was working well (preferring you for the bounces) the fury buff itself would help keep your critical chance at a good rate for sharper images.

I’m not so sure I agree with your take on torment, but we’ll see what happends.

Torment will be a 3 stack of bleed once every 12 seconds for 8 seconds in the best case scenario (on average). Nothing wrong with it, but that won turn condie Mesmer into a viable build all of a sudden.