Because minions aren’t a class mechanic and not everyone uses them.
Sometimes if you aggro the guards far away from the camp they will run back and heal. So you need to pull them wisely or get in there. And if it’s an upgraded camp – and not fully upgraded – then they can pop up pretty quick with yak guards and roaming sentries.
My guess is you were taking an upgraded camp from a little too far away and ran into this.
Necros have support but almost all of it is trivial in most situations (condition debuffs/boon corruption and healing), or is completely outshined by guardians playing normal zerker specs (condition clearing and protection).
Until necros get more meaningful and unique support or cleaving, it will be the worst class. But honestly I think the cleave is the bigger obstacle since PVE is all about top damage.
I think it is a shame incremental balance has all but vanished from the game. Quarterly, at best, balance adjustments to the game don’t work for me.
There are far too many overused and underused skills to pretend like content is really what the game needs.
There likely won’t ever be balance if they just focus on balancing what is already there. It could take forever. I think I what they are doing now is actually smart in that they are trying to open new playstyles with new traits and skills, but they make everything very weak that it doesn’t come to fruition.
But i’d rather have new content than worry about when I can confidently carry corruptive poison cloud, for example.
It absolutely would take forever, and it is an never ending process, which is part of what is required in a game to maintain one step ahead of a competitve pvp environment… I realize most people would laugh at me for calling it that, but the potential was there.
Unlike most MMO’s where you have to concern yourself with power creep from gear and how that interacts with skills, and new talent combinations as level caps raise,, they have attained the top end of their gear/level (supposedly). You can’t ask for a better sandbox to take the top off the strong skills and push up the weaker skills, in a stable gear environment.
Of course most people are happy with new PVE content I agree, but seeing as the parts of the game I really enjoyed have seen the least level of attention, it may be that the game just isn’t for me anymore.
Back when skills were being updated on a regular basis it felt like the potential for innovation was there. There is no innovation if the skills are only marginally adjusted on a semi annual basis. Even the new skills, that had such promise, like SR 30 and the healing blast… absolutely no attention to the hit box problems, clunkyness of the skill, etc.
I’m with you on multiple levels. They need more frequent balancing and more skills/traits/weapons, etc. if they won’t give pvp more game modes and more updates to WvW, then they need to give us more variety in the same infrastructure.
I agree though in that I think they are close, but they are frustratingly bad at getting closer.
I think it is a shame incremental balance has all but vanished from the game. Quarterly, at best, balance adjustments to the game don’t work for me.
There are far too many overused and underused skills to pretend like content is really what the game needs.
There likely won’t ever be balance if they just focus on balancing what is already there. It could take forever. I think I what they are doing now is actually smart in that they are trying to open new playstyles with new traits and skills, but they make everything very weak that it doesn’t come to fruition.
But i’d rather have new content than worry about when I can confidently carry corruptive poison cloud, for example.
I know you’re a good necro player, but you don’t need that much condi removal for a single opponent. That is enough to take on more than one condi build with everything a necro can potentially do with conditions.
What you’re describing is completely dominating a condi build, not just winning the fight. It’s be like fighting with a power build abainst something that combined a bunker guardian and an s/d thief because they are practically immune to damage with that kind of mitigation.
I am interested lately in like wonky, fun builds that still sort of work for whatever reason. Not necessarily competitive, super serious builds, but stuff you can make work and have it be different. Wouldn’t mind listening to something like that.
Warrior:
•high HP pool,heavy armor and high melee single target and AoE DPS, good crowd control, good mobility, frequent stun breakers
• Relies on landing its burst attacks to remove conditions.
Spending burst attacks cost adrenaline wich you first need to build and spending it will also cost you hps and/or other stat bonus like +crit/damage traits.
No defensive boons or any way to deal with boons on others
only 1 blind
only 1 combo field
no stealth/teleport/clones/pets or any other fancy stuff.And yet no one sees this ^, and still think we are GODS? we have so many weaknesses, you just need to find them like on every other class.
These aren’t weaknesses, really. More like, things that warrior isn’t great at. Other classes have all these things to deal with as well. But calling such things weaknesses is overstating them, IMO.
So you say light armor is a weakness for those classes?
Because having light armor means you get more defensive boons like protections.. and some can have almost perma protections.. that gives more damage reduction compared to a heavy warrior.So having a weakness doesnt mean its a a weakness for that class. because they are designed around it….
Warrior is designed around heavy armor AND high health pool..
But now they all thinking because warrior have both heavy armor and health and mobility etc that they have zero weakness.. lol..
THey are designed around it.Maby you should include weakness like no pets / clones / teleport / stealth etc etc..
Because classes that DOES have a weakness like zero health and zero armor DOES have these options of skills.. to balance there weakness.
Wait, I’m a little confused; your argument is that warriors are designed around certain things so it’s ok that they have them, but then not having stealth and clones – which they are obviously designed around – is a weakness? So which is it?
My point is that not having ways to deal with each and every situation isn’t a weakness. A weakness is like how engineers are weak to conditions or CC, or that a necro is not able to run or escape, or elementalists are weak to soft CC and have low health… stuff like that.
I’m not hear saying warriors are OP nerf them nerf them, but they don’t have any obvious weaknesses like other classes. Then combine that with strength runes and sigils of battle and intelligence sigils and a soldeir’s amulet and you have a very strong class. And light classes having boons doesn’t make them on par or better defensively than warriors, since those boons have limited durations. It’s like saying they have protection so they are better, while warriors have endure pain and berserker stance. So it’s just a weird way to compare to other classes.
Since the only real use I can see for this is spvp, and it likely won’t be available there, I’m not sure I see the point, unless you really want to run around like that in WvW.
I would have thought that plenty of other armor options would have been better choices.
Like what?
The community needs to stop complaining about condi tank when they’re using zerker. Other sets for crit or power build with some defense exists.
There was a very long thread discussing armor stat combos in relation to pvp amulets, but the ideas are there.
One could be power as a main, precision, condi damage. Or the barbarian stats from pvp. Or – and while I might wonder how best to balance such things – stuff with boon or condi duration, or perhaps something with more of a mix, like 4 stats instead of 3. And that is really just off the top of my head.
Also was the condi tank thing directed at me?
Warrior:
•high HP pool,heavy armor and high melee single target and AoE DPS, good crowd control, good mobility, frequent stun breakers
• Relies on landing its burst attacks to remove conditions.
Spending burst attacks cost adrenaline wich you first need to build and spending it will also cost you hps and/or other stat bonus like +crit/damage traits.
No defensive boons or any way to deal with boons on others
only 1 blind
only 1 combo field
no stealth/teleport/clones/pets or any other fancy stuff.And yet no one sees this ^, and still think we are GODS? we have so many weaknesses, you just need to find them like on every other class.
These aren’t weaknesses, really. More like, things that warrior isn’t great at. Other classes have all these things to deal with as well. But calling such things weaknesses is overstating them, IMO.
Since the only real use I can see for this is spvp, and it likely won’t be available there, I’m not sure I see the point, unless you really want to run around like that in WvW.
I would have thought that plenty of other armor options would have been better choices.
I know, I hate running into all those condi necro and condi engi based zergs. It’s like there is no place for a good old fashioned zerker ele or soldier warrior anymore, therefore, we should make conditions entirely irrelevant and essentially remove them from the game.
Definitely good ideas in here.
Zombify, you run a condi terror build? How do you deal with warriors? I was running condi in soloQ and eventually switched to power because I kept getting trashed by warriors.
Power is better. Condis get cleared and take longer to get ramped up. Most power attacks for necro are set it and forget it.
Ego…mostly undeserved ego.
2v1 trap.
Special Conditions: This trap can only be unlocked to players playing in Tier 1.
Function: It forces a server of choice to ally with you
Cost: 500 Tokens, 500 skillpoints, Tear of the enemy*
- Can be obtained through the forums or private chat.
This really doesn’t need to pop up in every decent WvW thread. Season is over, no one cares.
I think the next best step is making underwater weapons available on land. The skins are there, the skills are there on some level. Make the switch!
But yeah agreed with Bhawb. New weapons would be nice.
My only ideas are ramped up versions of class skills. Like a boon ripping trap. Otherwise I think most of my trap ideas would never happen, like a large scale only knockdown trap (only works on 25+ people) or a trap that leaves golems immobilized.
My worry with new weapons is that they seem to be so concerned with adding broken or OP content that much of it is so weak that classes don’t change. They add things that could address a weakness, but it’s all so weak that it never matters.
So I’m for weapons if they take the risk that something may be OP and that they are willing to address that quickly if it were a problem.
I went with staff, I used it on many of my characters and I like the way it looks.
I’m surprised by the lack of ability to detect sarcasm or dramatic overstatement in some of you.
Also, some of you missed my point (flow – you in particular). So let me be very precise. I’m not actually saying people can’t make a necro work or that certain builds aren’t viable; I’m saying that those builds are not well conceived and are clunky. How can I make such a shockingly subjective claim? Play another class. You’ll see. Sure, several other classes have the same problem, but the necro is especially clunky.
Telling me to watch a video or that skill>class or try another build has nothing to do with this: 1.) the necro class’s traitlines have MANY glaring rabbit trails that they once intended for you to think about but then later second-guessed and nerfed into uselessness; and 2.) the working builds (those that have higher survivability via attrition or whatever other factor) are NOT the builds that the traits were centered around yet they dictate almost all of the balancing. 3.) The necro’s viable mechanics are therefore often clunky and do not synergize well outside of PvE.
The case in point is the vamp build. YES, I get it, it’s not viable. But it is exceedingly obvious that they at one point intended for it to be viable, created quite a few traits around it, created weapon effects that harness it, and made it synergize theoretically. But alas, it is a bygone relic of some dev’s theorcrafted brainfart, because it is absolutely not usable in any major form.
The warrior / guardian advantage are the perfect examples, though most of you fanboys can’t see it because you don’t want to. Those classes are infinitely easier to play and have plenty more options. Their skills harmonize better, they’re well-defined, and yet they have plenty of powerful variation. The argument for the necro is “no complaining! there’s this one build that works if you just get this one thing right.”
Trust me because I’m right. I’m just venting because it’s sad that necro was crap and then was godlike and now has been brought below par again, where we have “oh yeah, everyone knows those builds that the class was obviously built around won’t work.” And it’ll be months or years or never before it gets ironed out.
I think you’d be dead on if you titled the thread “Necro PvP lacks a definitive role.” But you came into the class subforum and said it wasn’t fun. What did you expect?
(edited by Roe.3679)
I agree with this.
I don’t think you should be able to see the score when joining, either. It’s super common to be playing an uneven hotjoin and never have the numbers even up because no one wants to join the losing team and people seem to wait and join the winning side when someone finally evens out the numbers. I know that those types of players don’t get even rewards, but this still happens. Happens in almost every hotjoin game I join.
It’s not particularly fun for FA either. It’s unfortunately a necessary evil when jumping to the next tier, which is the goal. While fighting hod was fun, FA never wanted to be in silver league.
I enjoy playing my necro, I must be a masochist.
If I wanted to play a class to be L337 I would play warr or guard. I play necro because I like it. It helps that I seem to be pretty ok at it, but I don’t enjoy other classes, except maybe ele.
I’m guessing this is an EOTM inspired post. And in your defense they need to add a red outline to enemy spectral walls. But otherwise I doubt much gets done about this since its a wall skill and they have no limits on how many people they can hit.
Just yoloq, went well managed to win a 4v5 game. Your almost at 100% swiftness uptime.
kitten it was right there in your post. I read it and then came back later to post. I’ll watch for your videos though.
Have you tried this in tpvp at all? Or are you still testing in hotjoin?
Obvious troll thread would read again
Still baits out the conditions are OP players
10/10
This. Well done.
I actually propose a giganerf. Because what’s condi removal.
I’ve decided to join the people who immediately afk when this map comes up. Don’t care if it ruins 4 other peoples game. Could use the 5 minutes having better entertainment doing something else.
This is why it should be removed. Not because anything is wrong with the map, but because some people are such babies about it that they ruin other people’s experiences.
I don’t have strong feelings about the map either way, good teams generally still win and cheese doesn’t take people as far as others seem to think, but I fear this map because I don’t want someone to ruin my time by giving up immediately.
I prefer fair fights to different ones. Makes no difference to me if we’re fighting maguuma or SBI or whoever as long as the match ups are close and competitive.
Hambow is strong against any necro but realistically most warriors are weak to damage that you can get from life blast in a power build. Healing signet doesn’t really offer any way to recover from hits like that. If you can avoid the stuns and kite them they don’t have much of an answer for that kind of pressure.
You can go 6/4/0/0/4 to grab dhuumfire or 0/6/2/0/4 with an extra 2 points to put somewhere else, either greater marks or foot in the grave or whatever you like. Can’t go wrong with full dire and undead runes which shouldn’t be too expensive. Another option is perplexity runes for lolz. Sigils are less important but frailty is good as it almost always has a cover condi.
I meant your pointless inflamatory post that brought nothing into discussion.
I tried to build some bridge to mutual understandment with the OP, but you had to come and start a totally puny attack.I have yet to see a top necro play that skill in tPvP. The fact is, current meta, understood as the specs people are running does not make Spectral Grasp an overly useful skill. It can be easily dodged, evaded, blocked, LOSed, strafed, kited. Easily.
That is a fact. Coming from high EU tpvp perspective.
It may work for our friend OP, but he isn’t a top player yet (although he plays much better than his opponents in the video – but this is actually working against the position you argue). That is another fact and you are basing your posts on the negligence of it.
Taking a moment to point out that your opinion and experience is not the end all be all of necromancer experience is in no way inflammatory or pointless. It’s really easy to land spectral grasp, especially with the abundance of CC in a spec like this. It rarely misses. Plus pointing out that it can miss for a variety of reasons seems silly since, you know, everything can be dodged, kited, blocked, etc.
Now, pointing out that understandment isn’t a word… that would be pointless and inflammatory. But I’m sorry you find differing opinions so frustrating.
I think we can agree it has some decent usage possibilities and brings quite some utility but at the same time there are generally more favourable choices at the moment.
Subjective statement is subjective.
Wothless reply is worthless…
You mean yours? You can’t just say grasp doesn’t work when it works for him. And then you suggest well of corruption which I think is funny because he has plenty of CC to get someone stuck in one well, but probably not enough for a second, so it’s just a dodge roll away from being a wasted spot.
It is your opinion that spectral grasp isn’t a good choice, and not a fact like you seem to think it is.
I think we can agree it has some decent usage possibilities and brings quite some utility but at the same time there are generally more favourable choices at the moment.
Subjective statement is subjective.
Wow. I’m not saying I’d be in the middle of the god kitten ed fight. However, in tpvp most of the time they can still see me if I can hit them…… and once they see me I get focused pretty much every god kitten ed time, watching his game play there was only one sequence were someone was even targeting him…. I wish people would leave me alone that kittening long.
Seems like an appropriate response.
Without knowing anything other than your rage, I would guess you either play team pvp where they know enough to focus you and actually work together, you use lich early and often, or you get into bad situations whether through numbers or positioning. But the reason I would say that is you keep saying “they” and “they all focus me as soon as I’m on screen”
Things must seriously be different in whatever pvp matches you join, I didn’t see you get focused once. Everytime I come on screen of the other team they all immediately switch to me.
That gameplay is a shining example of why you should focus the necro rather than letting them 2 shot the other classes
If you’re in the middle of a big brawl at mid with this type build, you’re probably doing it wrong.
+1 to all this except also allow signets to work in DS. Maybe add a trait that mimics signet of undeath’s passive.
DS wouldn’t be considered nearly so bad if you could regenerate life force more consistently.
I still think a smaller life force pool by about 30% of its current total but a bar that refilled much faster would be better. That way you have more of this playing between life and death type of idea.
Warriors are capable of all those things, surely. But not all at once. I believe warriors need shaved, too, but as much as I think they need some tweaks, I feel your post was inaccurate.
Inaccurate? Let’s go point-by-point:
• Warriors have high toughness, high health, and a lot of regeneration (Healing Signet), allowing them to tough it out longer.
Warriors match Necromancers with the highest healthpool in the game, they also wear the heaviest armor type, making them the only class in the game with both of these. Guardian, by comparison, has the lowest healthpool and heavy armor, while the Necromancer has the highest healthpool but wears light armor.
Healing Signet is the most popular healing ability, and can be seen by almost every player in the game. The developers have mentioned in the past (about 6 months ago), that they were looking at addressing the Passive vs. Active on Healing Signet. They have since nerfed the passive healing by 8%, but it continues to be worn by Warriors for its Passive heal – not its active. On top of this, they also have passive healing through Regeneration via Dogged March (more on that later).
• Warriors have incredible mobility, both into and out of a fight. It is exceptionally difficult to lock down a Warrior who does not wish to engage because of their unparallelled access to swiftness, leaps, rushes, and blocks/immunity.
Greatsword 3 and 5 (weapon, 10 and 20 second cooldown).
Sword 2 (weapon, 8 second cooldown).
Shield 4 (weapon, 25 second cooldown, untraited).
Bullrush (utility, 40 second cooldown, untraited).
Berserker Stance (utility, 60 second cooldown, untraited).
Defy Pain (traited and utility, 60 second cooldown, untraited).
Mobile Strikes (trait, no internal cooldown).
These are the most commonly encountered abilities that Warriors use to engage and disengage combat. Note that the first two are the most commonly encountered ones in WvW and are on significantly low cooldowns. By their own words, the developers stated that a hearty, “sustain damage” dealing class should not be able to leap in and out of combat like a Thief or Mesmer, and yet… there it is! Plain as day.
• Warriors have both incredible burst AND sustain damage! They can hit hard, lock down a target, and bleed/burn them out over a short or long period of time. (For example: Longbow/Axe+Shield build)
I mentioned a build in this bullet point that has been increasing in popularity in both WvW (roaming) and PvP. The AoE burn from Longbow F1 and the insane burst from Axe F1 give the Warrior a choice between high sustain or high burst. The shield gives the Warrior additional survivability as well as a strong CC/gap-closing mechanic.
Similar builds include a variety of weapons, but many can provide intense burst and long sustainability (especially given the Warriors extraordinarily high health and armor). Couple a Greatsword with a Sword/Warhorn and you have a high mobility, high burst, high sustain class – which is why its the most popular build for WvW roamers.
• Warriors have access to too much condition counters. Dogged March and Cleansing Ire are a baseline for nearly every Warrior build. What’s worse is that they’re both in the same trait line!
With only 4 points, a Warrior gains access to two of their best Major and two of their best Minor abilities for a PvP encounter. These traits synergize so exceptionally well that its almost unthinkable not to take them! This, again, contradicts what the developers said during the stream.
Everything else they said on the stream was accurate, but when it came to Warriors, it was simply untrue. Their idea of the Warrior is NOT on par with what the community thinks!
So if they take a build that does little damage they can have high mobility. My point stands that they can’t do all of what you outline at once.
I was nodding my head at all of the things Jonathan and Karl said regarding class balance philosophy – until they got to Warriors, then they just fumbled the ball terribly.
During the stream, Jonathan and Karl stressed the idea of “holes in roles.” They spoke about Guardian’s being able to commit to the front line but being unable to disengage. In contrast, Thieves can jump in, do lots of burst damage, and back out because they’re not strong with sustain.
Warriors, however, currently break all of those rules:
• Warriors have high toughness, high health, and a lot of regeneration (Healing Signet), allowing them to tough it out longer.
• Warriors have incredible mobility, both into and out of a fight. It is exceptionally difficult to lock down a Warrior who does not wish to engage because of their unparallelled access to swiftness, leaps, rushes, and blocks/immunity.
• Warriors have both incredible burst AND sustain damage! They can hit hard, lock down a target, and bleed/burn them out over a short or long period of time. (For example: Longbow/Axe+Shield build)
• Warriors have access to too much condition counters. Dogged March and Cleansing Ire are a baseline for nearly every Warrior build. What’s worse is that they’re both in the same trait line!
Jonathan and Karl, you hit the nail on the head with every other class, but you dropped the ball big time on Warriors.
Warriors are capable of all those things, surely. But not all at once. I believe warriors need shaved, too, but as much as I think they need some tweaks, I feel your post was inaccurate.
I was about to load the Ready Up so i havent seen it, but if that was the general sentiment, I’m 100% on board with that idea.
How about +1 for every good player your team has, -1 for every bad player.
I don’t have hundreds of tournament games but classes rarely are a deciding factor. I’ve seen all lights destroy all heavies, 4 engi teams lose on skyhammer, 4+ teams of necros win, and a 4 warrior/1 guardian team lose. Classes only begin to matter much when player skill is even.
Well, it happens but on average these team compositions are winning, especially on foefire and temple. Skyhammer and Spirit’s Watch are probably most fair maps, since you can win by not ’ fighting ’ these meta builds..
Can you prove that statement? Because the only reason I believe it with no evidence is that they are popular professions. Otherwise it’s just you’re subjective experience which could very well show that your build is weak against or synergizes well with heavy classes.
I will not get sick of condi QQ threads where someone got hit by more than one condi class at once. I wonder if they are so upset about 2 staff eles or thieves or 2 hammer warriors? What did you expect would happen?
Two hammer warriors and I turn into a ping pong ball. Lotsa fun lol
Staff Eles rarely roam and are fodder when they do because they have to trade survival for damage. Thieves also have to trade survival for damage with one exception: the condi-evasion spec which now dominates roaming. Direct damage thieves also have to contend with blocks, dodges, invuln, toughness, blinds, etc.
Hammer warriors… block, dodge, stability, teleport, invuln, etc. Load them up with conditions, kite and watch them squirm. Cleansing Ire is great… if it lands on something which blindness renders nearly useless. Even hammer warriors usually fold up to condi warrior builds.
Two condi bunkers drop a mess on a player and it is game over for most builds. Once that condi is on, few builds can get it off fast enough. One solid necro/engi combo will melt most players in under 10s. Even if a player manages to get it off and survive they are still staring down the barrel of two heavy bunkers that will reapply that same volley in seconds.
2 players whatever spec > 1 player. You’re knocking condis because condi players group up together? You feel that you should win against 2 solid players because you don’t like fighting them?
The problem is not conditions but the WvW power creep. Once you get close or above 2k condition damage killing someone takes absolutely no effort or skill. If you factor in broken rune sets like Perplexity and awkward gear choices like Dire you are in for a fun ride.
If you somehow want to balance WvW, you need to put an end to the buff stacking madness: remove food or change food in a way that it completes your build not adds more offensive/defensive power, remove/change Applied Strength and Applied Fortitude (honestly not even PvE has such powerful buffs), remove/change Bloodlust, fix obviously broken rune sets like Perplexity, remove ascended gear, remove obviously overpowered gear choices like Dire. Only then will you start getting somewhere.
Have a look at higher tier PvP. Pure condition damage builds are marginal for a reason. You have none of the broken gear choices or buffs you can have in WvW.
And then condi builds are effective nowhere in the game despite no proof other than QQ that they are overpowered.
hey guys [WB] WonderBoys is a small WvW havoc guild playing for Fort kitten, we are inviting SEA players especially pinoys to join us.
I just wanted to post to say that WB is awesome and if you’re looking for a good fun SEA guild that you should give them a shout.
I think time spent on point for conquest, rezzes/stomps/kills, points earned from map objectives, and maybe just damage done. I only care about hearing about who helped me win the most, so even damage done can be misleading because it could be someone camping spawn and ultimately not contributing.
How about +1 for every good player your team has, -1 for every bad player.
I don’t have hundreds of tournament games but classes rarely are a deciding factor. I’ve seen all lights destroy all heavies, 4 engi teams lose on skyhammer, 4+ teams of necros win, and a 4 warrior/1 guardian team lose. Classes only begin to matter much when player skill is even.