Guild Wars 2

Sarrs.4831:

It’s bizarre. You’re lasering in on this one specific thing, when there’s already about 30 PvE maps, 6-10 of which carry meta events, there’s 8 dungeons in the game with a total of 33 paths, Fractals, dozens of world bosses and more- not to even mention sPvP and WvW. If easy mode raids are the sole issue that’s preventing you from enjoying the game, there’s something you’re not being honest about.

If it’s all about Challenge = Better Reward, well, WvW is a lot more a challenge then any PvE content in the game, including the raid, yet they don’t get some legendary armor, or special ascended boxes, or whatever for their constant efforts, why should you get anything better then what they get?

Sarrs.4831:

Yeah, but that doesn’t entitle you to raiding.

You were not entitled to a raid at all to start with, and many feel that even making the raid was a total waste of resources, so, moving on, can you give me one reason that is not totally pathetically self serving to not make an easy mode?

Sarrs.4831:

No, they wouldn’t necessarily want to do the easy mode,

They they would not have to. See having choices means they can play the want, removing choices forces people to play in a way they don’t want.

If Ohoni was advocating for removing the Normal Mode and making only an Easy Mode, you would have a point, but they are not, they want to everyone to enjoy the game, and play in a way that pleases them.

Don’t you want everyone to enjoy a game?

Absurdo.8309:

Again, the main arguments against it are:

(1) It would be a waste of developer resources, since there is already tons of easy and medium tier content in this game.

If people want it and will enjoy it, it’s not wasted

(2) It would devalue the existing rewards for raids.

What a petty and self serving reason.

Answers in Bold.

Sird.4536:

The path of least resistance is the one that everyone from casual to hardcore players will take.

Are you saying that all the people who have been saying that they love and want the challenge were in fact lying, and would want to do an easy mode as well?

Mind = Blown

FogLeg.9354:

Don’t be silly, many PvE people left after HoT too because the HoT PvE maps are unplayable solo, mobs are stupidly strong and all the map metas require playing several hours at certain timeframe. The stupid whining youtubers are the reason Anet decided to add PvE raids that nobody plays and mess up new PvE maps with extra “difficulty” so most players avoid those.

I gotta say I am not a fan of the HoT Maps myself, but. truth be told, the way we’ll know if HoT was a bomb, is if the Next Expansion is nothing like it.

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. Not trying to change raids one bit.

Not even a little.

You like how raids are right this very minute, then good news!

Even if I get my way 100% on this, you’ll be able to log in after that patch and continue to raid exactly like you’re raiding tonight!

Nothing about that will be changing whatsoever.

There will just be another version.

and that version would be different, you might not like that version, but that’s ok. because that version is not intended for you, it is for people who are different than you are, who like different things. And they can play it, and you never have to, and everyone can be happy.

Exactly!

It such a simple idea where everyone can be happy.

Anet makes two separate difficulties of the same instance, so that people have options on how they want to play. Nothing at all changes from the current dungeon, just a “Story Mode” gets put in, that is a little easier, or shall we say, just a bit more forgiving. The timers are a little slower on some mechanics, damage is reduced on some effects, the Boss Mobs have Less HP and do a little less damage, nothing major, just a slight numbers change really. That is all you or anyone else has asked for, and yet you would think from the responses on this topic they are acting like they going to lose their only reason to live.

Anyway, as you said, Everyone Wins.

Not sure why Anyone would have a Problem with that, I guess some people can’t be happy, unless they make Someone else unhappy, how truly petty and pitiful.

Gator.5729:

STIHL.2489:

Gator.5729:

My point was, that there are multiple people in this post claiming that it is designed as “Level 80 only content” and that if you are not 80 you shouldn’t be there. It was designed for all players regardless of level.

I would like to interject a minor bit of technicality into this, Fractals are 80th level content, this is indisputable, as there are no, for example, 60th level fractal.

Now, I can understand the issue with Up-level mechanic offering a lot of confusion on this subject, in fact, on another topic I had a similar discussion on this very problem with content not having a deliberate and established deftness of intention by the Designers. But unlike that content, the Designers of Fractals, made it very clear exactly what Fractals were designed for by putting in Agony and Agony Resist, which requires level 80 gear, and more of it, to progress higher up the scale.

Ergo, just from that, we can safely surmise that the content was in fact designed for 80th level characters, and that the up-level mechanic in place to allow players who were curious and wanting to experience it with friends to do so, but there is a hard mechanic in place with Agony that should make it very clear, that this content was not in fact designed for anything less then an 80th level character.

Just wanted to put that out there.

You are right for the fractal levels that require AR, as that is the “drawn line” between level 80 designed content. The fact that it was specifically stated on release by the developers that it was “designed for players of all levels” is a deliberate and established deftness of intention. There is no confusion on the up-level mechanic, it up-levels characters that are not level 80, so that the lower level fractals (19 & under) can be experienced by all players.

Fair points, but, it’s still up to the group to decide if they want to run with someone, I had someone flip out on a ranger in the group because they used a shortbow, like full on nerd rage and then quit the group over it.

As I said above tho, I would not kick someone outright just for being below 80th, but that does not mean I am offering charity either, everyone needs to pull their weight, even in the sub-20 fractals.

samo.1054:

Always nice to see some thorough ideas STIHL. Will try to take some time to study your proposal closely this evening

Thanks, Let me know what you think.

Justine.6351:

Should have been like, It’s condi meta zerker boy, keep up! Harhar.

LOL, that would have been, I was not the ranger, so, had no idea what was going on, I was guy saying “So what?”

But the sheer insanity of his response to the short bow made me come here and ask what was up.

Thank you everyone for the Responses.

I’ll be honest, the borderlands don’t bother me, I mean, I wanted to love them at the start, and I am just kinda getting used to them. So they don’t bother me.

What gets me, is while roaming, I get destroyed by, stun-lock or confusion meta builds.

When I fight in groups, it’s all Pirate Ship Meta.

Honestly, the changes they made just make going out there less fun, and lets be honest, the only attraction WvW has, is that the people who do it, enjoy it. Lets be honest, The Loot is scant, the exp, unless you do EotM (which is not real WvW) is inferior, there is nothing really there to strive for. You win, you loose, it does not matter.

What I would like is for some reward to be put forth that makes going out there, worth it.

I posted this idea on another topic, about a way to stop night-capping, or exploiting coverage-gaps, over server population imbalances.

STIHL.2489:

4: Balance PPT/PPK. Or more Accurately put, dealing with Capping during gaps in Coverage, and being Outmanned.

This would require a massive overhaul in how PPT worked, but I think it would do wonders for the game.

4-A Borderland PPT. Each Team, on their own Borderland, would get 5 PPT for any Camp They Controlled, 10 for Towers, 20 for Keeps.

On an Enemy’s Borderland, they would get 1PPT per Camp for each Active Defender on that Borderland. , 2 for a Tower, and 3 for a Keep. (Note: You can only be a Defender on your OWN borderland) up to a max of 20 Defenders Counted (IE: Max Gain for a Camp would be 20 PPT, if there were 20 Active Defenders On the Borderland) this number would be Divided by the Number of Invaders on that Borderland that Controlled said Camp/Tower/Keep.

IE: (Point Value* Defenders (max 20)) * (Defenders / Controlling Invader)

Note, every Borderland would have by Default 1 Active Player counted at all times. So, no one could get Zero Points. IE: If no one was on the Borderland, it would sill count as if there was 1 Active Player from all Sides.

To explain that: If Red owned one of Greens Keeps, they would get 3PPT per Active Green Player on Greens Borderland, Divided by the Number of Active Red players on Greens Borderland.

IE: Red Owns Greens Keep, Green has Default 1 Active Player, on the Borderland (No one), but Red, has 4 Active Invaders on the map. 3*(1/4) is what they would get for the keep, put another way, 3*.25 = 0.75 PPT.

Using another Example.

Red owns a Camp on Greens BL. There are 10 Active Green Defenders, and 2 Active Red Invaders. That camp is worth 10 (1PPT per Defender) *(10/2) = 5. Now that camp is worth 5 PPT to the Red Team, but they are also 2 people defending against 10 Defenders, it stands to reason that camp is not going to last long.

One more analogy to understand the Math a Bit More.

Green Owns Red’s Camp. There are 5 Red Defenders, and 1 Green Invader
Blue Owns Red’s Keep. There are the same 5 Red Defenders, but there are 12 Blue Invaders.

Camp = 1 PPT / Per Defender, Total Base 5
Keep = 3PPT/Per Defender, Total Base 15

Green gets 5*(5/1) = 25. So that Camp is worth 25 PPT to the Green Team
Blue gets 15*(5/12) = 6.25. So that Tower is worth 6.25 PPT to the Blue Team.

That means that the Camp to Green is worth 4 times what the Keep is worth to Blue. This means the game changes from sheer capped points to playing a game of strategic capping.

This would eliminate the whole problem of winning through coverage gaps, or winning by sheer volume of players. Which is really the main problem with PPT, is how it can be exploited, and doing this would close that loophole in the PPT problem we have right now, especially with the low and mid population server, that simply don’t have the coverage.

4-B Eternal Battlegrounds.

The Battle grounds are divided up by 3 sections and Stone Mist castle. This creates a very special situation.

To do this, Each Team would have Declared “Home Lands” that would provide them a Flat PPT if they Control it, exactly like their own Borderland. This would include their 20 for their, Keep, 10 for their 4 Towers, and 5 for their 2 Camps.

If they took another Teams Homeland, it would function as if they entered their Borderland. IE: (Value) * (Defender/Controlling Invader).

IE: If Green took Blues Keep. They would get (Keep*Active) * (Defenders/Controlling Invader) in this, Red’s active players do not come into play.

So, the Same Keep could be worth a lot More to one team over another.

For Example, if there are 20 Red, 27 Blue, and 7 Green.

Blues Keep is Worth 81 PPT to Red but worth 231 PPT to Green.

The Keep is only worth so much, because of the 27 Active Blue Players on the map, giving the Keep a value of 3PPT* Active Blue, Max 20. So only 20 of the 27 Players are counted, but the Keep is still worth 60PPT Base.

In Contrast, Geens’s Points are not Worth as Much, since there are only 7 active players, their Keeps base is a Paltry 21 PPT.

And Since they are vastly outnumbered, Greens Keep is only worth 7.3 PPT to Red, and 5.4 PPT to Blue.

It works pretty much the same as if you tied to take a Borderland, just in a smaller scale, but we can see how smart play, over simply brute force and capping can win the day with this kind of system.

Moving on.

The Mack Daddy – Stone Mist!

Stonemist, would and should be a prize. As Such Stonemist would Net a flat 100 PPT * (Both Active Teams/Controller)

IE: If there were 20 Blue Players, 35 Red Players, 40 Green players, and Green owned Stonemist.

100 * ((20+35)/40) = 137 PPT.

Now Imagine, if Blue Flips it.

100 * ((35+40)/20) = 375 PPT.

This idea would remove the sting of Night Capping, or Coverage Gaps, as well as the whole issue of getting rolled by a larger servers. It would reward smart play vs what we have now.

Now, Notice I have said Active Players this needs to be a way to distinguish between active and just on the map. Which happens, IE: What about the people there for crafting or banking, or whatever.

Any player with the “invulnerable” buff you get for being in the “Safe Area” would NOT be counted as Active.

I believe that PPK should be 1PPK, unless the outmanned buff is up, and then it’s 0 PPK to kill an Outmanned Opponent, but they get 2PPK for killing someone with an Outmanned buff on.

I was doing a daily fractal run, just getting my 3 in right, should be an easy day and easy run, and then all of a sudden some guy in our groups flips out that one of the rangers used a shortbow, I mean he just totally lost his mind over this and dropped group.

Can someone explain that to me?

(for the record we completed the fractals just fine)

Not bad ideas , however there was one major hang up.

WarHawk.1892:

If you are lv.80 you can check an option to use PvE gear allowing for ascended stats

This brings me right back to my original problem, I end up being stuck using the same gear Set up for PvE and WvW.

Ohoni.6057:

stuff

I gotta admire your ability to keep at this. Futile discussions are not my thing. Good Luck.

Ven Zehn.6573:

Anyone remember the riddles and puzzles from the the old RPGs like Baldur’s Gate and Baldur’s Gate 2? or the bridge puzzle in Dragon Age?

I think maps similar in idea to those might be fun, though I’m sure people would cry quite a bit lol.

Like: Solve the puzzle as a team within the time limit, if you succeed, you get a bonus chest and move on, if you fail, the forest comes alive, you fight it off, and move on.

Or rather than forest and trees coming alive (a tad overdone atm), perhaps the boulders and stones around you come alive, queue cool coming alive cinematic that lasts 3s

You sound like someone that would love playing Dungeons and Dragons Online.

Gator.5729:

My point was, that there are multiple people in this post claiming that it is designed as “Level 80 only content” and that if you are not 80 you shouldn’t be there. It was designed for all players regardless of level.

I would like to interject a minor bit of technicality into this, Fractals are 80th level content, this is indisputable, as there are no, for example, 60th level fractal.

Now, I can understand the issue with Up-level mechanic offering a lot of confusion on this subject, in fact, on another topic I had a similar discussion on this very problem with content not having a deliberate and established deftness of intention by the Designers. But unlike that content, the Designers of Fractals, made it very clear exactly what Fractals were designed for by putting in Agony and Agony Resist, which requires level 80 gear, and more of it, to progress higher up the scale.

Ergo, just from that, we can safely surmise that the content was in fact designed for 80th level characters, and that the up-level mechanic in place to allow players who were curious and wanting to experience it with friends to do so, but there is a hard mechanic in place with Agony that should make it very clear, that this content was not in fact designed for anything less then an 80th level character.

Just wanted to put that out there.

mikefmc.5961:

They cant even make weapon skins right now. what are you thinking. lets make it simple for them because they obv dont get it.

I get what you are trying to say, but let’s all take a breath and realize that they are just currently and temporary Diverting Resources towards the Xpac, they have not lost the ability to do this.

WarHawk.1892:

STIHL.2489:

Something else I would like to see.
I would like to see it where you have a set or armor for WvW, that is uniquely different then what you have for PvE. Not sure how they would do this, maybe everyone has “Invader Armor” and they get to pick the first stat (like the generic drop down menu), but later you can change it the same way you can change Ascended, Mix the Armor with a Insigna, and Poof you have new stats. If you mix it with an Ascended Insigna, you can get Ascended Invader Armor.

The only way I can get behind this is if, unlike PvP, they make all stat types available. The only reason I would support it is so that when I have new members join, instead of waiting a month for them to obtain the guild-build’s gear for WvW, they can just select what I need them to run and we go.

The main reason I would not support it is because I always liked that putting time in to obtain ascended gear gave you a competitive edge against newcomers. Also, you would then have have some% of zergs swapping builds on the fly at higher tiers constantly trying to counter each-other.

Perhaps there is a way around those issues, perhaps not. I do see some value in a setup similar to PvP in that it makes it much easier for new players to join in pre-80, but it does cost the hard earned gear treadmill that core WvW players worked on limiting the gap between a good and well-geared player from a decent, but inexperienced, and now equally geared newcomer.

I’ll be honest, it was a thought that came up as I thought about how I was stuck with the same gear for WvW as PvE. Can’t say I really gave it much thought beyond that.

How would you go about addressing all the issues you brought up?

TorquedSoul.8097:

BlazeQ.1095:

If so just pull the band-aid off so we can all move on to other interests.

You can’t move on to other interest until they pull the band-aid off?

Gotta agree with you 100% there, as grand and involved as it is, this is a game, if you are not having fun playing it, it’s time to find a game you will have fun playing, or at least start looking at the other options.

I already have my eye on a few other games out there, Eternal Crusade is among them, they make the claims for very “visceral combat”, and I want to see becomes of that.

Sviel.7493:

CONCLUSION

The ideal meta for WvW should be multi-dimensional. That means that any one strategy should have its limits. Siege bunkering should be weak to a well-placed disabler. Blobs should not be able to bypass their weakness (single-point sieges) and skip to their strength (running things over). A skilled WvW assault group should be good at breaking up to quickly crack a structure and/or drain it of supply and at fighting together once the walls are down. A skilled WvW defense group should excel in countering siege, draining enemy players of supply and scouting assaults before damage is done. Additionally, population imbalance should be manageable on at least a temporary basis: If two servers have diametrically opposed high population times, the winner should be the one that attacks and defends the best at the appropriate times—not necessarily the one that karma trains hardest when it has the advantage. If a server has more low-pop times than high-pop, they should be able to compete by defending better than their opponents so long as they can also go on offense when needed. A server that has more high-pop times should not automatically win unless they do their jobs well.

Mobile Siege would also be a viable option, like the Scorpions used in EotM, and I believe there is some kind of bike thing.

I think adding in more “Mobile” siege devices would really add to the game as well.

The Charr Tanks and Bikes, using Dolyaks as Battering rams, more golem like Mobile Siege.

But I get what you’re saying about mobility, but maybe if we did not need to have siege stationary, that would change the dynamic of the game as well.

I think “Scrapped” might be too harsh term, I think “Put on Hold” is more likely the case.

Something else I would like to see.

You all know how you have Amulets and Stuff in SPvP, so that your PvP Build can be, nothing like your PvE build, but when you go between WvW and PvE, you are stuck with the same armor and runes.

I would like to see it where you have a set or armor for WvW, that is uniquely different then what you have for PvE. Not sure how they would do this, maybe everyone has “Invader Armor” and they get to pick the first stat (like the generic drop down menu), but later you can change it the same way you can change Ascended, Mix the Armor with a Insigna, and Poof you have new stats. If you mix it with an Ascended Insigna, you can get Ascended Invader Armor.

Just wanted to put this idea out there, since I was just fumbling around with runes today, and it was like “This would be great for PvE and that would be Great for WvW.. and I am sooo not making 2 sets of armor”

I’ll be honest, I am not sure the merits of giving up a full Runeset just for some AR, especially at the higher level fractals, but I can’t say I am against them putting this in either. Price might need some serious adjustment tho.

However, If Anet has it in the budget, I’m cool with putting this in.

GoldenTruth.2853:

Myself and others have already discussed the fault in your logic.

All you have really done is whine that it would impede your ability to play the way you want, since you don’t care that others have only asked for the same, Not feeling it.

Not caring either.

Ohoni.6057:

You know what, I’m going to ask for a raise of hands on this one.

How many of you guys believe that if I, personally, were to spend the same amount of time you have playing raids, that if I put as much time and effort into them as you have, that I would come to enjoy them in the same way that you do?

And how many of you understand that this is not the case but do not actually care whether players like me enjoy raids? I’d just like to know where each of you stand on this one.

One thing I have learned, is that you can’t make a player enjoy a Style of Play that simply does not Attract them.

I believe that first you have to want to raid, want to do that content, before you can ever come to enjoy it.

However, I also know that it is within yours and my ability to raid even in it’s current state, but that does not change the fact that I also know if your motive to do this content is simply for a longer reach goal, IE: getting a collection part for Legendary Armor. It would not matter how many times you did it, you will never come to enjoy it, it will be something you will suffer though, and the second you get that, you will never raid again, and it will in negatively impact your desire to continue with the game at all.

So, it’s not for me that I say anything, it is for players like you.

GoldenTruth.2853:

STIHL.2489:

Anyone but me kinda shocked by the reaction to wanting a Gear Check. I mean it’s the Casuals that are saying “YAH! Put it in” while all the hardcore gamers that were all about keeping difficult and elite are suddenly doing a 180, and whining about some nominal requirement.

My Intention was not flip this, or make a straw-man out of it, I honestly wanted a Gear Check, to Establish the raid as End-Game, but the responses by the elitist seem to have turned it into such, unintentional as it was, it’s still none the less hilarious.

Someone want to explain to be how that happened? I would have thought that the elite players would have backed-up and rallied behind a gear check to ensure anyone not fully prepared could not enter.

Can you all explain to be Why the change of heart?

I’m shocked that you want it.

Ok find the fault in my logic.

STIHL.2489:

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessable, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

Here is how I see it.

Either there needs to be Check, or there needs to be an Easy Mode.

Leaving things as they are is not a solution.

Hypairion.9210:

And good luck passing my check simply with a gear check.

Then it’s not a gear check. and I’m not worried.

Hypairion.9210:

OK so you want gear check on raid ? Why not, at least i know you wont polute my group then ;-)
All i see is players not happy with the current situation, but not wanting to adapt and that didnt want to propose realistic solutions…(with anet current situation of low man power)

It’s not your place to denote what Anet can or can’t do with the manpower they have, or how they can use it, since unless you work at Anet, given your lack of an Anet Employee Emblem next your name, You don’t know what resources or funds they have, or what they can do with them.

Many people put out ideas, across these hundreds of pages, from a Story Mode, to simply a minor variable in timing and damage. There have been many idea, “Just deal with it” is not one of them.

I simply suggested they they Either make a Gear Check or Easy Mode. As leaving things as they are, is not going to resolve or solve anything.

Also, what makes you think I could not pass a Full Ascended Gear Check, did you really think I would suggest something I could not pass?

Anyone but me kinda shocked by the reaction to wanting a Gear Check. I mean it’s the Casuals that are saying “YAH! Put it in” while all the hardcore gamers that were all about keeping difficult and elite are suddenly doing a 180, and whining about some nominal requirement.

My Intention was not flip this, or make a straw-man out of it, I honestly wanted a Gear Check, to Establish the raid as End-Game, but the responses by the elitist seem to have turned it into such, unintentional as it was, it’s still none the less hilarious.

Someone want to explain to be how that happened? I would have thought that the elite players would have backed-up and rallied behind a gear check to ensure anyone not fully prepared could not enter.

Can you all explain to be Why the change of heart?

I’ll be honest, I mostly run dailies, and If you can step up and hold your own with everyone else and I can’t even notice if your slacking, I have no reason to kick you. So I would not kick you at the start.

If I have to pick you up after every encounter, I would want to kick you, not being rude, I’d want to kick anyone, level would not matter to me.

So I would not vote to kick, unless I saw you being really bad, which is hard to do in a single run fractal.

But, and I gotta be truthful, sadly if someone else opted to kick you, I would most likely second it, because I would wager they had a good enough reason.

Absurdo.8309:

Regardless, we’ve veered off the topic of easy mode raids, which we both apparently agree is unnecessary.

Nope. I think that unless there is a Hard Gear Check, making them un-disputable End-Game content then they should be Open to the Public, Easy Mode and all.

As it stands you are whining about a gear check, because it might make it less fun for you, why should anyone care about your fun, when you don’t care about anyone else?

Absurdo.8309:

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think this needs to be built into the system, as it would presumably be a burden for players that are already properly geared (by mandating something else), and it would eliminate fun runs and experimentation.

I would imagine a player that was already geared, would have no problems passing a Gear Check.

Also there is no shortage of other content for everyone to have “fun runs” and casually goof off and “experiment” with, but an “Elite Raid” should not be among them.

Since it’s instanced content, I have no problem with 10 people goofing off in a raid.

As to the type of gear check, I’m not sure what you are imagining. Fractals, for example, requires ascended gear with infusions. Ascended gear is not required to beat the raid (although it is helpful).

Regardless, we’ve veered off the topic of easy mode raids, which we both apparently agree is unnecessary.

So, what you are saying, is in short, you don’t want something put in that would interfere with your fun and your accessibility.

Sorry man, Can’t agree with you on that one. I think if you go into a raid to goof off, you should die, swiftly, painfully, and humiliatingly.

maddoctor.2738:

Why can’t someone do a fun run in the Raid? Or experiment in the Raid?

Might to explain that one to Ohoni, after all you’re the one that’s been telling them that it has to be difficult because it’s a raid.

Sorry, but now you are sounding like a casual wanting a free ride, and a easy pass.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think this needs to be built into the system, as it would presumably be a burden for players that are already properly geared (by mandating something else), and it would eliminate fun runs and experimentation.

I would imagine a player that was already geared, would have no problems passing a Gear Check.

Also there is no shortage of other content for everyone to have “fun runs” and casually goof off and “experiment” with, but an “Elite Raid” should not be among them.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t want to be accusatory, but it seems like you’re strawmanning the “no easy mode” side. Which isn’t really constructive.

Minor Note: If you feel that way, maybe you might want to rethink your stand on the issue of Difficulty. Just saying on that.

Absurdo.8309:

I don’t want to be accusatory, but it seems like you’re strawmanning the “no easy mode” side. Which isn’t really constructive.

Not at all.

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessable, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

Absurdo.8309:

Again, a gear requirement for raids is a petty response. It is not a constructive suggestion.

It;s not petty at all, It’s simply wanting an Honest Bar that needs to be met to enter the raid.

Excuse me, but, why is someone who was once against doing anything to make the raid more accessible, suddenly regurgitating Ohoni’s arguments ad nauseam?

Didn’t you already argue against making things to easy, why the sudden change of heart to allow In-Progress and non-optimal toons into the Raid?

Absurdo.8309:

Let’s try to focus the arguments here.

The only real “Argument” here is “Are the Raids End-Game”

It’e been established, they the Developers have Intended them to be Such. As such it’s was poor mechanic to allow an “In-Progress” character/toon to even enter them. They would have been much better served to have a Hard Gear Check walking in, as that would eliminated any notion as to who should and should not even be trying this.

A Dungeon/Raid that is in fact “End-Game” should be reserved only a completed Character. Originally, I had thought to have the raid check against Elite Spec , Mastery and Gear.

But mastery is Account bound, so that would not stop an In-Progress character from entering the raid.

Elite Spec, may not be the most ideal spec for the raid, so forcing players to equip it, seemed unjust, however, since most Raid Builds do in fact require Elite Spec to be optimal, this is not a bad idea.

So a Simple Gear Check seemed the most easy and honest way to approach this. And lets be real, Ascended is not difficult to acquire, anyone can get it, all it takes is a little time, some mats and some gold.

So it makes no sense that anyone would who is for the difficulty to remain to object to this being at very least the basic cap to even walk in.

What I don’t understand, is why the sudden turn about to not want to rise to the occasion, to meet the challenge, and look to this a goal to strive for, I mean really, if you expect others to do that, why would you not want to do it as well?

Gene Archer.8560:

maddoctor.2738:

I can’t play all of them if you add a hard gear check. I’d need to spend even more time (and money) to gear them all and have them ready for the Raid. We are not talking about one or two characters, more like 9.
.

And so to be able to raid with all 9, you would have to do what is necessary, and gear them up.

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future. If people aren’t willing to put in the work to gear their characters, then they clearly don’t actually want to raid. That is what all the raiders have been saying after all. To “put in the work” to be “worthy” of raids.

So, let’s have a hard gear check and maddoctor can put in the work to gear his nine characters.

None of us need care that it makes it harder for him to raid, since he doesn’t care that the current setup makes it hard for others to raid. It’s a perfectly fair and valid proposal for STIHL to raise. Kudos to them.

Thank you very much.

maddoctor.2738:

Gene Archer.8560:

I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future.

Do you think that would prevent these threads from appearing? The next thread you will get is “please remove hard gear checks from Raids”

Sure they would, when was the last time you saw “please remove Agony Resist from level 100 Fractal” ?

Ohoni.6057:

But, we need to understand that this subject would never have come up if there was a Hard Gear Check like a level 80+ Fractal has.

No one would question where this raid stood on the tier of “if they could do it or not”, and everyone would knew exactly what it took to be ready to simply enter.

A Hard Gear Check would resolve and absolve all these discussions, the hundreds of posts back and forth, never would have happened, had Anet simply put in a Hard Gear Check. And the easiet way they could do that, is via the Versatile Infusions, requiring all 14 of them.

I have to say, if raids did have a hard gear check, I would be demanding a version of it that did not. /shrug

I’m just generally opposed to excluding people from content that they might enjoy, for no other reason than that some players want to keep it for themselves.

Which Story Mode could Satisfy.

maddoctor.2738:

Also, let’s be frank. Do you honestly believe it would be a good thing to add a hard gear check NOW?

Yes I do. Absolutely.

If for no other reason then to Simply to remove any misgivings on who should be entering this content.

What I don’t get, is why you are not really supporting this, unless you know, it would be too hard for you to get full ascended or something, and then you’re just part of the group that is whining that something would be too hard.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Not seeing your objection, as I would imagine that every Key position should be an optimal build, and every serious raider would not only know this, but embrace it.

Just like If someone wants to run a 76 Level Fractals, any character they wanted to use, would need to be fully outfitted for the task, not sure why the raid should be the exception to that kind of rule.

Simple, because in the Raid roles are more clearly defined than in Fractals. In Fractals you can substitute many builds for a given task, in the Raid they are more specific. And besides if a player is really good they can do high level Fractals without doing the earlier ones, why shouldn’t it be the case in the Raid too?

Not seeing your Objection here.

I would imagine clearly defined roles would make this easier, you know what to make, how to build it, and gives you something to work for. Know you role/Own your role if you want to take on a second role, then it’s just something else to work for. I don’t see your objection.

Are you saying that these elite players, the ones that feel they are the top percent of the game, those that thrive on difficult content and challenge, do not have the means to get Ascended Gear on more then one character?

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

Perhaps then what the raid really needs is a hard set Gear Check built in, like Fractals have with Agony Resist.

This doesn’t seem like a good solution to this imaginary problem.

Going to have to disagree with you there. It’s a real problem of players feeling alienated and thus generating animosity. I mean, this topic existing, is testament to the fact that it’s a problem, and a real one at that.

Now, I want you to read this. See what they are saying.

Ohoni.6057:

The point is that players don’t WANT to “progress” through dungeons and fractals before raids. And that’s fine, there’s no reason that they should have to other than that you would like them to. The solution is to make raids that are fun for these players, not to change these players to be fun for you.

It’s pretty simple, they want the Raid Open to everyone. I don’t think by this point anyone is confused by what Ohoni is saying. I could even agree with them to a point in making a Story Mode version of the raid.

But, we need to understand that this subject would never have come up if there was a Hard Gear Check like a level 80+ Fractal has.

No one would question where this raid stood on the tier of “if they could do it or not”, and everyone would knew exactly what it took to be ready to simply enter.

A Hard Gear Check would resolve and absolve all these discussions, the hundreds of posts back and forth, never would have happened, had Anet simply put in a Hard Gear Check. And the easiet way they could do that, is via the Versatile Infusions, requiring all 14 of them.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Perhaps then what the raid really needs is a hard set Gear Check built in, like Fractals have with Agony Resist.

This is something I always wondered. Raids are above dungeons and fractals in difficulty. They are 10-man content and not 5-man content, they require more preparation, thought and skill. But you still get players with zero experience in GW2 instanced content that want to do Raids, skipping the entire learning process.

What is needed is for the players to get it in their heads that Raids are the next type of content after dungeons and fractals. You can’t go to 10-man content without mastering 5-man content, that should’ve been obvious, but apparently for some it’s not.

And really a player who reaches 80+ Fractals shouldn’t have problems adapting to the Raid mechanics anyway. They should have enough Ascended gear, enough experience, a good build, and so on. Only thing missing is the number of players, and changing how LFG works is a good step forward to making finding more players easier.

And what do they do when they fail? They ask for “difficulty settings” instead of following the learning process as they should. But something like agony isn’t a good solution either for multiple reasons, but one of the highest ones, is it prevents players from using multiple characters in Raids. In Raids composition is KEY, which means the best players use multiple characters with different builds to fill roles, if you needed something like AR to outfit them all, it would cause serious problems.

No. To me it’s more like a player issue. Players themselves need to understand the learning process and do things “in order”.

Not seeing your objection, as I would imagine that every Key position should be an optimal build, and every serious raider would not only know this, but embrace it.

Just like If someone wants to run a 76 Level Fractals, any character they wanted to use, would need to be fully outfitted for the task, not sure why the raid should be the exception to that kind of rule.

GoldenTruth.2853:

STIHL.2489:

I think before we can really discuss difficulty, first we need to establish if raids are in fact intended to be End-Game Content.

Sure, here you go

“Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.”

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids

Seems pretty clear cut that raids are intended to be both challenging and end-game content.

Perhaps then what the raid really needs is a hard set Gear Check built in, like Fractals have with Agony Resist.

Right now, they have a semi-soft requirement, with DPS, and Difficulty, but, it might be better for everyone involved if the Raid itself, checked against your gear. But I find soft caps like that dishonest. It gives the illusion that anyone can do it, when that is clearly not the intention of the Encounter Designer.

The easy way to resolve this problem is to put in a hard gear cap, that sets the bare minim of what it needs to even have a chance, and the best way to approach that, is via the Infusions, so, we ensure anyone entering the raid has Ascended gear walking in, but it can’t be Agony, because that is Fractals, it would need to be something unique to the Raid Encounter.

So what we do, is put a vendor in at the Start of the raid that sells a “bane resist” versatile infusions. This players would be able to buy what they need, right there in the raid itself. (Maybe put a vendor in some other key spots, like Right Outside as well)

Then,, as the players finally make to the raid boss themselves, the Raid Boss starts to toss out Banes. This has the effect of kicking the player out of the Raid, and nullify their ability to get back in. IE: Banished from the Raid.

Players would need a 14 Bane Resist to be immune to this effect, at 13 BR they would only offer a 50% chance of protection.

The Boss would randomly trigger the banish effect as the encounter progressed, regardless of how well or poorly the group was doing, so it could go off many times in a single encounter.

This the Raid itself would have a clear set requirement that everyone would need to meet, if they even wanted to have a chance to complete the Raid, and that would be Full Ascended Armor/Trinkets/Weapons.

Anyone with less would run the risk of being Kicked from the group by the Raid Boss, themselves. But this kind of design allows players to know exactly what they need to have walking in, no illusions, no misgivings about what the demands are, you have a clear goal set as to exactly what you will need.

I think that was the largest flaw in their design, if they are going to put this out as the End-Content, then they should have set the bar walking in at “End-game” and not the soft-cap, deceptive way they are doing it now.

Sviel.7493:

Jana.6831:

@STIHL Lets see, what folks do we have in wvw? There’s roamers who repair, flip camps and kill single enemies, scouts who repair, escort dollies, small scale, small scale havoc groups who flip camps and towers (or even whole borderlands), zergs who fight and flip camps, towers, keeps, blobs who do the same.
How about making this like dailies, so per week you have “cap 20 camps”, “kill 100 players”, “use 500 supply on repairs”, “escort 40 yaks” and so on. You can probably do that rather smart so that everybody will be rewarded, although it will likely be pretty hard to reward roamers and scouts – but maybe someone can come up with a good idea.
I think with this you can set the bar for the rewards higher and it might actually bring new people to try wvw. And actually: Bronze should be fairly high while gold should be rather low, so that people have to do quite a bit to get a reward but if they already showed their dedication they will be rewarded more (I hope that made sense).

I really like the idea of making the dailies weekly—despite the contradiction

I don’t think it’s productive to have people trying to do one thing or another based on dailies instead of what actually needs to be done. For example, while I’ll harass a keep into submission pretty regularly, I rarely actually go in to take it and thus don’t get credit. Same for towers—I’ll knock down walls and let people know in map chat then move on to w/e else needs doing.

That said, I originally entered WvW because I needed to get one more daily done…so there’s that…

I totally know what you mean, and I really struggled with this as well, as I could not think of a mechanical way to really reward those “unseen” yet very needed contributions to the battles, like tapping to lock up a way point.

I think a good step would be to remove the WvW Exp from EotM and make that just a World Exp/Karma Train, and really not have anything to do with WvW, because it allows people to get to Gold Invader, and not help their own Borderlands one iota, while other people like you, out there working, get no reward.

Puck.9612:

InB4 they add this rune as something you have to grind for in silverwastes or a HoT map.

LOL ikr!

A reason to go out there and fight.

Ahratan.1098:

Boring mechanics and Stability
There are too many skills in the game which are frankly zero fun to be on the wrong end of. Knockdowns, knockbacks, stuns, etc. And there’s only two remedies, stunbreakers and stability: the former is usually a one-off with a long cd and the latter is not easily available to everyone.

So you see the problem: lots of boring effects and no good way of stopping them.

Then HOT came along and added a ton more of these boring effects. And also stability got nerfed.

You see how the problem got worse.

If you’re going to have so many boring control effects, stability needs to be widely available. On loads of abilities, on runes, in new WvW skills, everywhere.

This is a very solid point.

I presented an idea like this, with special WvW Vendors.

STIHL.2489:

3: Even More Reward.

Lets be real, nothing says “validation” more than having your own little items reserved for you. In this front I believe that Badges of Honor and Proof of Heroics should be the currency for “Invader” gear. However, I believe like Tiered Cultural Armor, what should be Offered is Tiered Invader Items.

What this means is that each Tier of Invader has their own Merchant with their Own Prices, that provides Exclusive Gear just for them. However, you can always access lower tier merchants, IE: A Silver Tiered player can still buy from the Bronze Tier Merchant.

What should be Offered:
Armor – and as opposed to it being solid in various sets, just set the armor to pick you own stats.
Weapons – Same Deal as Armor
Commander Tags
Food – Effects that are WvW Centric, IE: +5% Damage with Siege, +5 Supply Capacity
Oils – Effects that are WvW Centric. (See above)
Back Skins – Flags, Banner Poles, Etc.
Shoulder Skins- Flags, Banners, Etc.
Bracer Skins – Flags, Banners, Etc.
Siege – IE: Silver and Above Could buy Superior at Discounted Prices, Platinum and Above could buy Legendary Siege.

While anyone could buy the Standard Invader Armor currently available, with Each Tier starting with Bronze, would have their own Unique Skin Set for Armor. While the Weapons would be the same Skin, I propose that each tier has their own noticeable color theme.

I am sure this might take time, and my suggestion should be put in, Top Down, IE: Put in the Stuff for Diamond Tier First, and Then work down to Bronze Tier. That way, people can have something to work for, while no one is left with the “Well when do us Diamond Players get stuff?” I mean all know that if you play WvW long enough you will get Diamond Tier eventually. So put that in First, and let them know, more is coming.

This also stops people from just going into WvW to farm for Badges and Proofs, thinking they are just gonna buy something.. Nope.. gotta earn that new shiny!

If they added in a series of Runes and Infusions that lets say, offered resistances, counters, and in some cases Immunity to Control Effects in WvW, for higher tier raiders, this would counter this very problem.

IE:
Rune of the Borderland Scout
Power +25
Run Speed +10%
Power +50
Run Speed +20%
Power +100
Gain 3 stacks of Stability when Stunned, Immobilized, or Slowed

Infusion of the Golden Commander
-8% Duration of all immobilizing effects.

I mean these are rough ideas, and would need to be adjusted to make them more inline to match the game mechanics, and not be too powerful or make people to immune to builds, but given since you can have a totally different build set up in WvW then PvE or PvP, it might really balance out the WvW playing field, like anything, it would need to be tested, and checked on how well it worked, so that it did not totally kitten the balance in some other direction, like making any control effect worthless.