There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
One hour and half to play at best ? That’s hard to handle. If I were in your situation, I would just quit playing games altogether.
Honestly, I cam’t imagine a life so devoid of family and activity that an hour and half seems like such an insignificant bit of time that it would not be worth trying to do anything with it, while here I am thinking that if I can get 30 mins to escape and play I won something.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids, I have not advocated them, and I still don’t.
They won’t. And it’s not a fact it’s just your opinion.
Worked in Fractals. What do you have to back up that it won’t?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
… while it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids …
How is that a fact? You’re ignoring facts. ANet has stated that legendary Armor is and will remain an exclusive reward for the only tier of raids currently in existence. Fractal weapon skins only drop in higher tier fractals. Anyone looking for L. Armor would not benefit from lower tier raids. For that to be false, ANet would not only have to change their mind about sticking to one tier of raids, they’d also have to change their approach to exclusive rewards in the only tiered content in the PvE game.
You worry about Anet sticking to their word, after they have openly given up on their founding design principles? Really? Did you think they would hold out just for you and yours? How Cute.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
The main thing you are missing here, is that I could have done 3 paths AC, and walked away with 4.5 gold and called it a night, and moved on to doing a daily fractal, thus dungeons we an easy addition to paying the game.. now for that same time investment I get 1.5 gold, or I need to commit to doing 8 total paths of dungeons, it goes from being a nice addition to game to an obnoxious grind.
“I don’t care about the dungeons themselves, just the easy money”
More like “content is only good because I can turn off my brain”. Stacking in a corner and DPS the mobs down with powercreeped elite spec 1 (and 2 soon) is just not fun @STIHL
More like “being stuck doing dungeons for the next hour and half” is not my idea of fun.
But don’t let my reasonable motives stop you from making all kinds of off the wall assumptions. None the less an above poster already explained with dev quotes what is exactly going on with dungeons, any other assumptions are wrong.
I never denied the fact at some time, devs tried to push us away from doing dungeons. You can’t deny however that they reverted their stance of “making dungeon content worthless”. My point is, if dungeons became that easy and people likes/d doing this easy content, you shouldn’t be having that much gold you got back in the time simply because they developed more content that are labeled as endgame content as of today.
You basically complained earlier in the thread that they killed the “dungeon community”, in terms of LFG. And as I can understand (please correct me if I am wrong), you like what dungeons has been offering in the past. So now you are telling that you don’t like being stuck doing dungeons for an hour and a half. See the disconnect ?
Look, maybe you have several hour blocks of time to play so an hour and half does not feel like a dent in your play time, I don’t, if I am lucky I might an full hour to actually play, after being logged in for 2 hours, due to life distractions.
In that time I can try to get into a dungeon group that will be a solid one and half hour rush, which I will never be able to commit to, or I can join a daily fractal T3 group, and in 3o min, I get something like 9 boxes of loot, and whatever the actual encounter gave me.
Anet set out to make dungeon rewards unappealing, and they have done just that. Its not that I don’t like them, they are just not worth the time investment anymore. Doing them at this point in the game would be just for the giggles of it.. and the bugs and other problems.. ruin the whole “Doing it for the love of it”
They need a face-lift and some TLC, which is also something Anet will not be giving them. They are dead content.
Now for the topic at hand, I just can’t agree with with how dungeons are relevant in terms of story. Simply because, in my experience (of casual pug runner), I have absolutely no clue of what story is being told in dungeons.
Story Mode for all Dungeons coexists, continues, and expands upon your personal story and the reunion of Destiny’s Edge.
Each path after that, deals with the aftermath of the story mode. IE: In AC, after killing the Ghosts, They realized that the Ghosts had been keeping the Skelks at bay, and now you have to deal with the Skelk problem, which is a greater threat then the ghosts.
They all really do have a great story them.. pity all you learned was how to stack in a corner.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
I suppose, with Tiers, all the egotistical elitist could hem and haw about how great they are doing T4 raids, with all their DPS meters, and requirements, while the lowly peasants only did T1 Raids with their all welcome tags and saturated with clueless wonders.. just like fractals.
And as I explained a bazillion times already, it get tiring btw, that won’t help anyone get into the current Raid LFG which, since you missed for the billionth time, was the topic. And not tiers of Raids. Now, have fun trolling all the threads about Raids with your tiers of difficulty even if it’s completely irrelevant. The bold letters was a nice touch though.
I thought the bold would help you understand, it didn’t. Also, you must have me confused with someone else, while it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids, I have not advocated them, and I still don’t.
As I said originally, Anet does not care, and won’t fix the problem, so either deal with raids as they are, or find something else to play.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Oh we know about the fact that Anet destroyed the rewards on purpose because they hated dungeons.
Oh good, for a moment there I thought you were trying to say something as patently incorrect and overwhelming disproved as Anet was trying to make dungeons attractive.
Good to know we have this settled.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
So kittening what? Players can still enjoy and run fractals, even if they never get better then T1. which was my point, if you have some other strawman you are fussing against, quote them and not me.
Who cares? The question was how to allow new players to join LFG groups for the Raids,
Yah exactly, and making raids exactly like fractals with tiered difficulty would make for more LFM for raids just like having tiered difficulties makes for more Fractal LFM. I didn’t see anyone talk about T4 except you, so, whoever you are having an issue with about that, is not me.
My point was super simple understand and validated by In-game activity.
I suppose, with Tiers, all the egotistical elitist could hem and haw about how great they are doing T4 raids, with all their DPS meters, and requirements, while the lowly peasants only did T1 Raids with their all welcome tags and saturated with clueless wonders.. just like fractals.
So.. again.. no idea who you are fussing against, but nothing you have said counters anything I have said, or even remotely address it.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
No matter how many times you finish T1, the requirement to be experienced in CM won’t change and you won’t be accepted in CM runs,
So kittening what? Players can still enjoy and run fractals, even if they never get better then T1. which was my point, if you have some other strawman you are fussing against, quote them and not me.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Sure it would, with more people doing raids coupled with less requirements to join their groups, more people will be able to join find and raid PUG LFM’s.
That’s false. Requirements will always be the same and no it won’t lead to -more- people doing raids.
eh? Of course the requirements to get into a group would change with varying degrees of difficulty, this has been proven with fractals time and time again, the requirements to get into T1 fractals are far less then what it takes to get into T4. This is a proven and self evident fact of the game.
So the solutions are out there, and have already been successfully put into the game.
Only your “solutions” do not help with what the OP posted and no there is no successful implementation in the game, fractals clearly show that difficulty tiers do not help the least bit.
[/quote]
Of course they do. Difficulty Tiers make it so that anyone can approach a Fractal, starting at the lowest level where they can learn how fractals work, get gear, and have other players explain the mechanics, and then, if they so choose, slowly working their way up, or not, they could stay at low level fractals, in either case, a lot more people are doing fractals with the difficulty levels then if it was T4 or nothing.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
The main thing you are missing here, is that I could have done 3 paths AC, and walked away with 4.5 gold and called it a night, and moved on to doing a daily fractal, thus dungeons we an easy addition to paying the game.. now for that same time investment I get 1.5 gold, or I need to commit to doing 8 total paths of dungeons, it goes from being a nice addition to game to an obnoxious grind.
“I don’t care about the dungeons themselves, just the easy money”
More like “content is only good because I can turn off my brain”. Stacking in a corner and DPS the mobs down with powercreeped elite spec 1 (and 2 soon) is just not fun @STIHL
More like “being stuck doing dungeons for the next hour and half” is not my idea of fun.
But don’t let my reasonable motives stop you from making all kinds of off the wall assumptions. None the less an above poster already explained with dev quotes what is exactly going on with dungeons, any other assumptions are wrong.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
I actually like some of the ideas I have seen about getting rid of servers and making WvW a more Guild/alliance style game. I think that would fix a large part of the problem we are having with server issues and population balance.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
meh.. each of my characters has their own set of Collecting tools.. often themed to their class.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
There is always that subset of players that want to turn every game into work, to make something that should be fun into a chore. These people truly ruin games.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
It’s one of those cliche rules of gaming that a game cannot be balanced for both PvE and PvP, as it stands GW2 is not the exception to this rule.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Concerning dungeon rewards, back in the day it was the following:
3 AC paths for 4.5g
2 CoF paths for 2g
3 CoE paths for 3g (Charged cores/lodestones)This would get you 9.5g and 480 tokens. Nowadays you’d get the following:
3 AC paths for 1.5g
2 CoF paths for 0.66g
3 CoE paths for 1g
Extra 5g for 8 pathsSo you will now get the following of 8.16g and 950 tokens. So the difference nowadays is losing 1.34g for 470 tokens which is totally worth it imo. Yes there was a time when you didn’t get the extra tokens or the extra 5g and that was terrible, but nowadays the reward is pretty much the same or better. So dungeons are now dead because people keep saying they’re dead and the community moved on.
Edit: And this math is with doing AC for 3 paths, the gap gets even closer once you ignore AC for 3 other paths except Arah.
The main thing you are missing here, is that I could have done 3 paths AC, and walked away with 4.5 gold and called it a night, and moved on to doing a daily fractal, thus dungeons we an easy addition to paying the game.. now for that same time investment I get 1.5 gold, or I need to commit to doing 8 total paths of dungeons, it goes from being a nice addition to game to an obnoxious grind.
Which was Anet’s plan, to make dungeons unappealing, and thus drive people away from them, They have succeed.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
so yeah. no matter how you try to slice it and no matter what wordplay you try to employ… Anet killed dungeons.
Except that they really didn’t.
Player perception killed dungeons. As is in their current state dungeons are every bit as lucrative now as they were in the past. The only difference is how you generate that reward.
Instead of being rewarded for playing CoF p1 50 times a day, you instead play 8 unique paths (which now includes story) and get a repeatable gold and token generation source of your choice.
But yeah people keep saying dungeons are dead, it’s really helping that community come back.
You must have missed the whole era where they flat out killed the rewards, on top of that, Anet has openly admitted they don’t want the Dungeon community back.
I’ve been here the whole time. It’s funny how you can throw that out there so brazenly but it’s almost like you haven’t actually played them yourself as of recent. If you had, you know that you can quite easily 3man the dungeons now and earn more gold via the repeatable 5g + token box than you ever were back in the old days of CoF p1 spam. Dungeon touring is equally as valid today as it was back in 2012.
LOL. No it’s not, I become locked into an 8 Dungeon path obligation which requires no less then 3 separate Dungeons to be completed.. to get close to what I could have gotten just doing one dungeon path as few or many times as I liked, and moving on to something else.
They are Not even close.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
They could fix the problem by making raids easy enough to Random PUG, making difficulty scales like fractals have, making a story/easy mode, etc, etc. They have ways to solve the current issues surrounding raids.
Nothing you mentioned will allow new players to find groups on the LFG to raid with. And to do the current Raids.
Sure it would, with more people doing raids coupled with less requirements to join their groups, more people will be able to join find and raid PUG LFM’s.
Its pretty simple to see how it would work.
You don’t have to look far away if you want to find out why. Ask yourself, do all those difficulty scales of Fractals help anyone find a group for T4 or CM? No they do not.
By the same token, it’s very easy to get a T2 fractal group going, just put up an LFM, and they fill (I joke you not) within seconds of posting. So more people can enjoy fractals, and those that want hard stuff can do that.
Difficulty Scales have made fractals easy and approachable by new players, and enjoyable by casuals that are more then happy to hover at T2 or T3, and just do that for daily and thus build a bulk population for those that want to do fractals, while allowing elitist their little corner playground of T4.
So the solutions are out there, and have already been successfully put into the game.
It’s just that Anet does not care, so, they won’t fix the problem, and anyone not ok with that, can opt to move on to some other game, because that is just the way things are here.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
so yeah. no matter how you try to slice it and no matter what wordplay you try to employ… Anet killed dungeons.
Except that they really didn’t.
Player perception killed dungeons. As is in their current state dungeons are every bit as lucrative now as they were in the past. The only difference is how you generate that reward.
Instead of being rewarded for playing CoF p1 50 times a day, you instead play 8 unique paths (which now includes story) and get a repeatable gold and token generation source of your choice.
But yeah people keep saying dungeons are dead, it’s really helping that community come back.
You must have missed the whole era where they flat out killed the rewards, on top of that, Anet has openly admitted they don’t want the Dungeon community back.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
You most likely don’t have any of the Fractal masteries… Once you have those you easily make 25 gold in the 30-40 minutes it takes you to do your dailies—and that’s on a bad RNG day.
And that’s not even counting the fractal 40 farm, which has by far the best Time/Gold ratio of anything in the game.
You arent wrong, i can only do tier 2 fractals at the moment, and im making easily 30 gold a day just doing the dailies + the ascended chests that drop occasionally. The amount of AR though…i really wanna get into T3s.
However, i will agree that i wish dungeons still had a place in this game. i like they way they where setup, and i hate the fact they decided to defunct them for Fractals and in the process utterly destroy the dungeon community the way that they did.
They didn’t destroy the dungeon community. The dungeon community (especially the casual side) just moved on.
That would be what destroying the dungeon community would be, the community that used to do dungeons.. moved on.
You don’t seem to understand the syntax of what you said. When you say “destroyed the dungeon community” you are placing blame on Anet, not stating the dungeon community moved on of its own will and volition, which is what happened.
LOL.. No.. Anet actively destroyed the loot rewards for dungeons because Anet had ceased to support dungeons for their game, and thus Anet sought and succeeding at destroying the dungeon community.. that is exactly what happened, the Dungeon community did not simply move on, there was a lot of direct action by Anet to push them away from Dungeons.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Not trying to insult anyone, just putting out the facts, they won’t fix it, they won’t change anything, if this means you will never raid, they don’t care.
It’s not something that they can “fix”
They could fix the problem by making raids easy enough to Random PUG, making difficulty scales like fractals have, making a story/easy mode, etc, etc. They have ways to solve the current issues surrounding raids.
But they don’t care.
There was never any need for Raids to ever be put into GW2, if people wanted challenging content/raids there is no shortage of other MMO’s out there, Anet never should have even tried to pander to that demographic, and stuck with their core philosophy, but they flipped their founding principals the bird, and.. if anyone does not like it.. too bad.
That’s the state of the game.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
Or they could just dummy down the raids that they become snorefests and could be pugged by randoms. That would also fix the problem..
But you know what.. Anet is not going to do anything to change what is.
So… deal.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Anet, I’m not sure if you have been paying attention to the LFG, but as it stands getting into a raid group is virtually impossible from the LFG panel for newer players, or players who had not done any of the raids from Day 1 of HoT. They are just stuck in a Catch 22 and SOLed.
I sincerely suggest coming up with a way to fix this before the new raid content is released. Mostly by offering a bonus incentive or buff for allowing new raiders into the group.
Not trying to insult anyone, just putting out the facts, they won’t fix it, they won’t change anything, if this means you will never raid, they don’t care.
If you don’t like that, then, maybe it’s time to go play some other game.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
balance is bad since HoT before that only mesmer was underpower by a little , you are new to GW2
If you really believe this, then you have never played a game that was even remotely balanced.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
LOL.. class balance in GW2 is a Pathetic Joke. That is why it never even got close to becoming an e-sport.
like LoL had balance…every now and then they put out OP heroes then nerf the hell out of it shove ur E-sports up your kitten..wonder why I was begining to think that moba players had merged to GW2
Whoa there, there is no way GW2 was ever going to be an MOBA e-Sport type game. There is a massive difference between “has some balance issues” and “balance is a joke”.. GW2 is at the bad joke setting.
I mean, I don’t know what other MOBA’s you have played, but in my sampling GW2 balance is soo bad that it makes the other bad MOBA’s I have played look good. For example, one of the more well known failures to make an MOBA was Eternal Crusade, and GW2 class balance is so bad that it makes Eternal Crusade look kitten near perfect in it’s effort to balance the races/classes. (it’s not, trust me, but in comparison to how bad GW2 is, it can feel that way)
But that is because Anet tried to take what is a PvE game, with classes built to engage in an PvE environment and put them in a PvP arena, that is begging to fail from the onset.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
You most likely don’t have any of the Fractal masteries… Once you have those you easily make 25 gold in the 30-40 minutes it takes you to do your dailies—and that’s on a bad RNG day.
And that’s not even counting the fractal 40 farm, which has by far the best Time/Gold ratio of anything in the game.
You arent wrong, i can only do tier 2 fractals at the moment, and im making easily 30 gold a day just doing the dailies + the ascended chests that drop occasionally. The amount of AR though…i really wanna get into T3s.
However, i will agree that i wish dungeons still had a place in this game. i like they way they where setup, and i hate the fact they decided to defunct them for Fractals and in the process utterly destroy the dungeon community the way that they did.
They didn’t destroy the dungeon community. The dungeon community (especially the casual side) just moved on.
That would be what destroying the dungeon community would be, the community that used to do dungeons.. moved on.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
LOL.. class balance in GW2 is a Pathetic Joke. That is why it never even got close to becoming an e-sport.
There’s actually a list of reasons, rather than blaming it on only one reason.
LoL was a horribly balanced game for quite a long time, yet became an e-sport.
Never played LoL, it looked dorky, but, let me ask you a question, could you build one Jinx to be massively more powerful then any other Jinx, or were they all around the same?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
LOL.. class balance in GW2 is a Pathetic Joke. That is why it never even got close to becoming an e-sport.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Other games have gone the route with player GM/Forum mods, etc. with varying degrees of success. However as others have pointed out, as unfortunate as it is, too often that little bit of power goes straight to their head.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
You didn’t miss anything, the company moved anyway from fun Dungeon designs that have a story and a theme, to Fractals that feel like an RNG Grind Rusher wet dream. so that was spot on.
I like how you completely overlook the story and theme for the Fractals, lol. You people and your rose-tinted glasses.
That is because the “Story” if you could call it such, is “Hit the RNG button and see what random historical encounter comes up” .. so no.. no one missed anything to think fractals were lacking in that department.
Whilst I like the (earlier) fractal stories and themes (largely because the simple, subtle story works well for them), I agree there is a stronger narrative for the dungeons.
One point though and perhaps I misunderstood your post, fractals are no longer RNG selected and haven’t been for a couple of years now. You can select any individual one you like.
Eh… that was the story behind them, not sure what the story is supposed to be now, umm maybe it’s “10 min loot grind, get-r-done”..?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
To answer your direct question to me stihl. I had purchased the tier 3 ultimate edition each release which is 100 or so dollars each time. Gem purchases were regular for a little bit until everything dungeons became a corner stack fest with people getting booted out of groups for playing necro at which point I didn’t want to be associated with the game anymore.
When heart of thorns was announced it was perceived that the cheese meta was to be eliminated via more complex ai and a less emphasis on zerker nuking content so I had purchased the ultimate edition for that reason. For a time in raids at least in the beginning people were using all sorts of different builds rather than the high meta builds which is what I wanted to see, hell world first featured a condition scrapper from what I remember. For a time pwiw ideology existed, play what was desired but play it well.
I do not think of myself in the way you described, allow me to clarify. I am a big advocate of luminosity, I believe games should be more educational and should test the brain, not do the opposite which is why I stay away from most phone games. Our children who will be our future are not taught the values of working for a reward, many just want it now with no commitment. This message needs to change, games can be a part of that message. A few years ago a person put on their job application that they play world of Warcraft and landed a high level management position. I want to be able to do that same for guildwars 2. I want to be proud of the fact that I play this game and be able to tell other people in real life that I play this game. This is why challenging content must exist.
Nahh man. Whatever myth you heard about playing WoW being a doorway to opportunity is just that.. a myth. You have just as much a chance to be turned away by the hiring manager because you play an opposing faction as you do for playing WoW to get you hired.
Truth is, No one ever is going to say “Wow, you play a really challenging life absorbing video game that takes up all your free time you must know your kitten”
No one says that, not even computer game companies say that.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but the Reality is, (according to Forbes) games that are known to be very involved/addicting like WoW, actually work against you to put on your resume, as most of the time, companies will assume that you will be thinking about the game while at work.. a major No No. if you are applying for anything that requires you to be mentally on your toes.
Also.. as it stands, since you did not in fact increase you spending because Raids brought you joy and a feeling of accomplishment, to match the loss from my leaving because I felt pushed aside, just between the two us, Anet lost money.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
You didn’t miss anything, the company moved anyway from fun Dungeon designs that have a story and a theme, to Fractals that feel like an RNG Grind Rusher wet dream. so that was spot on.
I like how you completely overlook the story and theme for the Fractals, lol. You people and your rose-tinted glasses.
That is because the “Story” if you could call it such, is “Hit the RNG button and see what random historical encounter comes up” .. so no.. no one missed anything to think fractals were lacking in that department.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Am I missing something or did the company making this game decided to push much more grindy and annoying content for no reason at some point, and if so, why?
You didn’t miss anything, the company moved anyway from fun Dungeon designs that have a story and a theme, to Fractals that feel like an RNG Grind Rusher wet dream. so that was spot on.
But what you are missing is that the loot for fractals gets much better as you go up the tiers.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
snip.
This is a really good post TBH.
One side comment that I will add is that often for me, I like the comparison to things like “sport or pvp” not because they are focused on winning/losing against someone, but rather on your own side you coordinate with a team of other people. I was a competitive swimmer for 20 years and in some scenarios (not all) you aren’t really racing against the competition, but rather against the clock. That being said, the biggest enjoyment is still being involved with your other teammates, even if you aren’t “winning/losing”. For me (maybe not everyone), I get a similar feeling with raiding in that you are working together to accomplish something, not necessarily against someone.
I have a sincere question related to the “wind out of your sails” feeling, because it isn’t something that I feel but I’m curious about. If you had 100% confirmation that without raiding you would not have any additional content that you did like, would you still feel this way? Or is the feeling due to the feeling of “oh man I could have had more of <X> if the time wasn’t spent on raiding”? If the raids are only an addition to the game and not having them is only a subtraction, then the “let down” feeling makes less sense to me because functionally every other part of the game is the same. In fact, there could be other areas of the game that are worse off due to not having raiding (looking at special action key, but I know that isn’t important to you in particular).
This s a wonderful question, and I’ll do my best to answer is as fully as I can. Personally, it’s not the Raid itself that is the problem, but the lack of parallel progression paths that is the actual problem. raids took a game that was once very open at what could be considered end-game and with raids there is this very myopic “This is End-Game” presence about them, which is mainly due to their loot/rewards. While some might praise that hand held direction towards what to do at cap, it becomes this coerced direction for everyone that wants to progress in the PvE of this game.
Previous to Raids, there was no sense of that deftness of direction, but, now their is. But in doing so, they pretty much took everyone that was not into raiding or wanting to get involved in raiding, or maybe just the people that did not want to deal with scheduling their around these activities, or did not want to have to deal wit coordinated group activities, and liked soloing, or maybe just being that naked Norn running around Jormag and while maybe didn’t add much DPS, did add a lot of flavor to the event, in short, it took all the people that simply wanted to play a game for the sake of it being a game, where they always felt like they were moving along, even if they were just goofing around and took that feeling of progress no matter how incremental and tore it asunder, to throw in their in face that.. No.. No you are not making any progress anymore., and making it clear, Unless they are willing to raid, there really is no future for them in this game.
While such a feeling often does not enrage people, it does not kitten them, it does discourage them, it makes them feel like there is really no reason to keep playing. because they simply no longer see the goal as something they want to get to. Which is what taking the wind of someone sails means.. it removes their motivation to keep moving forward.
Now, of course they may still play, they may really love the other parts of the game, so they hang around and do that, they will do what they can to starve off what they know is the inevitable, but they do so, now knowing that what they are doing is trying to not make progress towards an ‘end game’ , but for all intents and purposes, they are only buying time till they get burned out and leave.. as at some point, they know that unless they are willing to do what it takes to become a Raider, they are stonewalled. Some simply deny it, others realize it and still hang around in hope things will change, while others, this game is now a time pass till the next one comes out, and yet others will just walk away.
But no matter what, there is a feeling, a sense, that their is no real future here for them. so, they often quietly cease to be as invested into the game. Suddenly other things are more important, much, more important. suddenly.. 10 dollars feels like a lot money where once a C-note was money well spent.
It is what it is. we can’t change human nature, we all play for the same self serving reasons.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
To each their own on what they want to play.
For me, My main, the one I view as my avatar in game, is always a male. Everyone else is contingent upon design, or graphics, or in some cases, a name I have picked out.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Okay so if it is admitted that it was always about loot, then what? Why is this bad? You have yet to give proper reason as to why locking prestige behind challenge is any way shape or form bad when we have clear societal reasons that dictate that doing so benefits society as an entirety and provides people an avenue to become someone better than they are now. I can give you millions of reasons as to why its good to do this.
I have to say, I love your honesty, it’s refreshing to not deal with people that try to sugar coat their self serving desires, and there is a greater level of openness we can have in a discussion once we are really willing to get to the point, and our earnest motives. So, with that said, lets us dispense with the illusions and understand that the only reason for these discussions back and forth is pure unadulterated self serving greed… on both sides.
So, what’s the problem if they make PvE content for your level and style of play that is not only different but against how I want to enjoy this game. I mean we can use all kinds of analogies in real life to justify those that are better at the game should get more reward, and we will use all kinds of things like Employment to Sports.
Well first off, Sports does not work, because PvE , most notably Instanced based PvE is not even remotely competitive as there is absolutely zero competition against other players. Since all PvE is scripted, PvE is akin to doing a choreographed dance. Now you might at this point mention things like “Dancing with the Stars” but again, Instance Based PvE content, there is no competition, no one has to defeat anyone else to get a victory.
There is no victory or defeat to another team in PvE, thus it is not competitive or sport like.
You’re not even really competing against the NPC, you’re simply learning the dance steps and position among your troupe on how to put on a passingly good enough show. in short PvE is a routine not a sport.
Lets go to Employment. This one tricky, because no matter how many times it gets said, it seems to get lost on the receiver, but, this is a game, not a job. In fact, playing this games is so far removed from being my job, that I paid to play it.
Yes, I paid to play it, and truth be told, I paid just as much if not more then you did to play this game. So, involving PvE, why should you get more content designed for your style of play then me when we both invested the same amount of money?
lets go back to that whole Greed Thing and realize that this is my entertainment, not something I am doing professionally, this is my escape from my professional life and truth be told, the reality is, no matter how much we might want to believe otherwise, people don’t fund someone else’s fun.
Remember, you mentioned how competition among companies keeps costs down, allows them to grow and get better, and that goes back to this little discussion between us. Anet is selling entertainment, I don’t work for them, they in essence work for me, for all of us, and their job is to keep us happy and entertained, and in return we continue to pay into their game.
Raids came in and put that out as the PVE “End Game”, so now the whole game for a PvE player is about getting ready to raid, well what happens to all the people that didn’t want to raid, that loved this game because it did not have that myopic end game ? Well truth be told, often enough they don’t quit, (some do), but they still try to have fun other ways, but almost always they feel… I’m gonna say ‘A little let down" maybe go so far as to say ’slightly annoyed’ that they are not enraged, they are not kittened, mostly, it’s more a feeling of having the wind taken out of their sails.
But what happens when that happens? Oh right, they spend less. Now they may not stop spending at all, but they will spend less, I know I used to drop 40 – 80 a month on this game before HoT came out, and I bought 2 of their largest X-pac’s, (gifted one to a friend because I wanted to share this game with them)… yah… that ended.
Let me ask you directly a question, and this is to you, no one else, did Anet make money off you? Did your feelings of being great and better then other people inspire you to spend at least as much as they lost by me feeling left out and leaving?
(rephrased: Did you suddenly start spending around 40 a month more because there was content just for you and your level of play?)
Now.. see the real world problem with being a company that panhandles frivolous entertainment in a competitive and I might add saturated market trying to sell content that makes entire demographics feel left out?.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.
PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.
Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.
Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?
Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?
It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.
What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.
Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.
You are far from honest. The biggest debate in this discussion has always been about a lore/training mode or free loot. It’s something that u never mentioned, not even slightly until the discussion turned in that direction, at which point u either come clean or get the kitten off this thread. And now u just drop it as “it’s a given that it’s about the loot and its always been about the loot”.
No it wasn’t. Take every active raider. EVERYONE. Everyone clears at least 2 times in a week, even though the loot is crappy after u already killed a boss.U are actually losing gold by spending consumables, especially now that they are more expensive than ever. If they cared about loot they would just farm fractal 40/ silverwastes and get rich or just play the TP.
You thinking it is all about the loot shows your alienation with everything that raids stand for, everything people play them for AKA fun (even people with 500+ li still clear weekly) and how a stranger u are to this topic to even have a “valid” opinion. Admitting that u just want free loot without effort was u throwing your own credibility out of the window.
IF there was any truth to what you just said, there would have never been the veritably endless and I might add, still continuing, objection to a ‘story mode’ version of the Raid, to unlock the Lore and Legendary Armor for the less hardcore crowed… but the never-ending outcry against it, makes it clear as day, It’s always been and always will be about the loot.
If there was any other reason, there would not have been the massive objection in the first place to a story mode.
However. I feel that its a pity that reality and the actions and words of your fellow raiders disagree with you, It could have been a great game if there was any real truth to your words, a game we all could have enjoyed.
You could have your fun, I could have my loot, and we all would be happy.. but.. yet that’s not the reality of things now is it, because, it’s all about the loot, and that is why, here we are.. still at it.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.
Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.
If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.
So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot
Nice strawman. But still incorrect. The problem isn’t the loot, the problem is what you propose would kill raids.
If changing the loot would kill the raid, then it was always about the loot, it’s not about the fun, or the challenge, or any of the other snake oil reasons that get passed off, it all boils down to loot, That’s how they killed dungeons, by doing nothing but modifying the loot.
So can we all just admit to it now?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.
Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.
If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.
So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Spare me any other hyperbola.
couldn’t resist.
Ok.. THAT was funny.. and DYAC!
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
In the end, a hard meter to pass helps everyone involved. if gives people looking into getting into raids a direction and a demand to meet to allow them to judge if they are serious enough to want to do this, and it ensures that to the people doing raids that the people looking to join them at the very least, put in the work to be ready for this.
I do not see any downside to putting in that fixed requirement, in fact it would help everyone in the long run. If you feel there is a downside, I am willing to hear it, but, it would need to a logical rational downside, not simply that you do not like it.
This is a game. Entertainment. I don’t want to work in a game. I don’t want to be serious about a game. I want to play a game and be entertained.
This is the game where you spend your time having fun, not preparing to have fun. ANet has said so time and time again. And it works for the vast majority of players of this game. Excluding players for whatever reason isn’t on the agenda and doesn’t mesh with the direction of this game at all.
For reference: I’ve participated in several raid boss kills (and I mean participated, not being carried) on different classes. I’ve had my Ad Infinitum since shortly after it was released. I’m certainly able to play raids and t4 fractals, even though I seldom do it (due to rl restrictions).
I still don’t see the point in excluding people from content by enforcing hard gates that require them to prepare in totally different kinds of content to even be able to try raids, and allow access only to people with a specific mindset.
Your objection seems to be nothing more then an emotional objection done for the sake of it, with no real in game activity on your part to show any reason for your objection, since you already partake in doing T4 fractals, which are very gated content, and by your own admission it does not impeded your ability to play the game for fun, you own gaming activity denounces decries your objection to this idea.
Fortunately, there are players who have the opposite attitude toward Raiding
Let me see, what you are saying is that you would rather chafe under player imposed gates an sanctions which are often only found out about only after being hazed out of a raid, for not meeting these requirements, as opposed to having a clearly defined path set for you by the game itself to ensure you are at the very least properly equipped.
So in essence what really want is to enable elitist to get to act-out like elitist when people join raids without knowing what kind of prep they should do before hand.. and somehow you think that makes me the bad guy?
LOL
That is some convoluted logic there. I have no opinion regarding whether you are a ‘bad guy’ or anything else. I do, however, think those offering inclusive gameplay opportunities are more welcome than those offering exclusive gameplay opportunities. Make of that what you will.
Good luck.
If they wanted to make inclusive content, they would not have made raids to start with, but since they did, they may as well make them thematically correct to the rest of the existing instance based content.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.
Notice, how the same applies to the raiders as well. In the end every discussion ends up being about the rewards, because it’s something both sides care the most.
Not really.
We just care that the effort we put in isn’t undervalued. There’s a difference between that and “rewards”.
Lets set things clear, No, there isn’t. Those are the exact same thing, and all these discussions come down to that one single all important thing – Loot
Nothing else matters, and we all know it too, no matter how diplomatic it is worded, or how much sugar coating tries to get slathered on to it, when all it said and down, it all boils down to dat loot,
If raids offered something other then their oh so precious loot, none of us would be having this discussion .. none of us
All the Raiders would not be here trying to saying anything and everything that could be said to justify that precious special loot being reserved to raids, even going so far as to try and make it off that it was not loot.. but.. that quickly gets revealed that.. Yah.. it’s about the Loot.
For example, if doing a raid gave a special title and just a good chunk of gold, we would not be having this discussion, and you would have your special tittle to feel appreciated, something you could put on to show everyone that you did something the filthy masses could not.. but.. we all know that would not be enough, because.. the reality is, it really boils down to Greed, it all comes down to that Loot
Spare me any other hyperbola.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.
PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.
Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.
Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?
Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?
It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.
What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.
Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.
PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.
Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.
Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?
Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
In the end, a hard meter to pass helps everyone involved. if gives people looking into getting into raids a direction and a demand to meet to allow them to judge if they are serious enough to want to do this, and it ensures that to the people doing raids that the people looking to join them at the very least, put in the work to be ready for this.
I do not see any downside to putting in that fixed requirement, in fact it would help everyone in the long run. If you feel there is a downside, I am willing to hear it, but, it would need to a logical rational downside, not simply that you do not like it.
This is a game. Entertainment. I don’t want to work in a game. I don’t want to be serious about a game. I want to play a game and be entertained.
This is the game where you spend your time having fun, not preparing to have fun. ANet has said so time and time again. And it works for the vast majority of players of this game. Excluding players for whatever reason isn’t on the agenda and doesn’t mesh with the direction of this game at all.
For reference: I’ve participated in several raid boss kills (and I mean participated, not being carried) on different classes. I’ve had my Ad Infinitum since shortly after it was released. I’m certainly able to play raids and t4 fractals, even though I seldom do it (due to rl restrictions).
I still don’t see the point in excluding people from content by enforcing hard gates that require them to prepare in totally different kinds of content to even be able to try raids, and allow access only to people with a specific mindset.
Your objection seems to be nothing more then an emotional objection done for the sake of it, with no real in game activity on your part to show any reason for your objection, since you already partake in doing T4 fractals, which are very gated content, and by your own admission it does not impeded your ability to play the game for fun, you own gaming activity denounces decries your objection to this idea.
Fortunately, there are players who have the opposite attitude toward Raiding
Let me see, what you are saying is that you would rather chafe under player imposed gates an sanctions which are often only found out about only after being hazed out of a raid, for not meeting these requirements, as opposed to having a clearly defined path set for you by the game itself to ensure you are at the very least properly equipped.
So in essence what really want is to enable elitist to get to act-out like elitist when people join raids without knowing what kind of prep they should do before hand.. and somehow you think that makes me the bad guy?
LOL
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
You also are missing the point here. It really doesn’t matter about the type of content but rather the skillset/mindset/requirements of the player to succeed in the game mode.
I’ll humor you with this.. lets see if you are right.
Both game modes are built around coordinated team play.
Nope.
Both game modes have increased incentive/reward for becoming exceptional at the content.
Nope.
Both game modes have a relatively high skill barrier for entering the content successfully (as compared to other content in gw2, not other games).
Again, this is not true at all.
Both game modes teach you to improve your skill set overtime as you play the content (individually and as a group).
Again.. there is no truth to this either.
Both game modes have prestige items associated with them.
Ok.. one out of 5 is.. well.. yah that’s pretty bad.
That’s enough for now.
Yah.. I agree.. please stop now.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
[quote=6733476;ButterPeanut.9746:Rewards and other incentives also don’t exist without the content that brought them. Want Saul’s story? Sorry you may never get it if raids never existed. [/quote]
Let me see, you’re asking if people would pass on the implementing of story content, which is hidden behind a raid they will most likely never do, due to the way the raids are currently implemented, OR have that dev time put towards something else that they will do, even if means they don’t get that specific story.. the answer is painfully obvious, but, in case you are still wondering, it would be Something else
Want legendary armor in the game?
At the cost of needing to deal with having to slog tough a raid to get it? Pass.
Put the Dev time into something I will enjoy.
Sorry WvW and PvP may never have gotten it if raids didn’t exist.
They already had legendary back items in the game before raids, Legendary Armor the inevitable next step, raids or no raids. Most likely still using the Journey style to process it, just without the Raid being an annoying stonewall to players.
In that regard, Raids were a massive negative in regards to the addition of Legendary armor.
Enjoy tech like the special action hot key? Sorry we may never have had that if raids didn’t exist.
Can’t say that I do.
Want more dungeon/fractals/open world/etc because raids never existed? Sorry you may not have gotten that either because ANET could have just decided to release the XPAC sooner, or not employee as many people, etc.
They could have, but a revival of Dungeons overall would have been better for the game, given the outcry about abandoning them to stat with.
Truth be told, If they replaced the raids with Singe Player Story Mode Dungeons, and a 5 Player Explorer Mode, that could have been a revitalization of the whole Instance Based Dungeon game. They could have started a whole new ind of HoT Fractal Series, and that could have been epic.
But no.. we get.. raids.
The reality of raids never existing in HoT doesn’t exist, so there is no way to know for certain what the outcome would have been (which is why I use the word “may” everywhere)
Which means.. Raids could have been a catastrophic flop as far as the development went, and you would have no way to know, or say otherwise.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Raids and PvP are so far removed from each other in the way they are set up an work that the not enough similarity for there to be anything exactly alike between them, ergo, your example is totally invalid.
But, since you said you would not be trying again, I hope we are done, as I would so dearly hope you don’t make a lair of yourself.
You also are missing the point here. It really doesn’t matter about the type of content but rather the skillset/mindset/requirements of the player to succeed in the game mode.
Both game modes are built around coordinated team play.
Both game modes have increased incentive/reward for becoming exceptional at the content. Both game modes have a relatively high skill barrier for entering the content successfully (as compared to other content in gw2, not other games). Both game modes teach you to improve your skill set overtime as you play the content (individually and as a group). Both game modes have prestige items associated with them.
That’s enough for now.
There is so much wrong with this, I have to wonder if you even PvP, and I am gonna bet no.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Here is the way it works.. if are a player that enjoys PvE, eventually.. you will be forced to raid to continue your progression in this game, it’s really just a matter of how long you can occupy your time doing other stuff before that happens.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.
PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.
In exactly the same manner people have issues doing it I have issues doing PvP. So no, I don’t need to try again. The example is valid.
Raids and PvP are so far removed from each other in the way they are set up an work that the not enough similarity for there to be anything exactly alike between them, ergo, your example is totally invalid.
But, since you said you would not be trying again, I hope we are done, as I would so dearly hope you don’t make a lair of yourself.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)