There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
@STIHL Lets see, what folks do we have in wvw? There’s roamers who repair, flip camps and kill single enemies, scouts who repair, escort dollies, small scale, small scale havoc groups who flip camps and towers (or even whole borderlands), zergs who fight and flip camps, towers, keeps, blobs who do the same.
How about making this like dailies, so per week you have “cap 20 camps”, “kill 100 players”, “use 500 supply on repairs”, “escort 40 yaks” and so on. You can probably do that rather smart so that everybody will be rewarded, although it will likely be pretty hard to reward roamers and scouts – but maybe someone can come up with a good idea.
I think with this you can set the bar for the rewards higher and it might actually bring new people to try wvw. And actually: Bronze should be fairly high while gold should be rather low, so that people have to do quite a bit to get a reward but if they already showed their dedication they will be rewarded more (I hope that made sense).
I thought about some kind of system to base the rewards upon, and after some false starts, I finally settled on using the existing dailies as a metric for the very reason you listed, other kinds of things might make it harder for various people to get their rewards, and dailies seemed to be accessible across the spectrum of players. The last thing I would ever want to do with a reward plan, would be to make it harder for the existing players to enjoy it.
The idea is always to be inclusive, if I set the bar too high, people who have minimal play time but enjoy WvW, will suddenly feel left out and become even less inclined to log in and contribute, and is that really what you want? To drive away some of the people already out there?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
2-B: WvW Contribution Rewards.
There is should a reward for how well you placed at the end of any given week.
1st Place – Reward Box (Bronze/Silver/Gold)
2nd Place – Reward Box (Bronze/Silver/Gold)
3rd Place – Reward Box (Bronze/Silver/Gold)But this needs to be reserved for people that Contribute, not just log in one day at reset and never again for the rest of the week. The Way this would work, Bronze/Silver/Gold would be contingent upon how many WvW Dailies you did in a given week. A player would need to do at least 7 WvW dailies just to be eligible to receive the weekly award box at all.
So the Breakdown would be like this:
7 -13 WvW Dailies Done – gets you a Bronze.
14- 20 WvW Dailies Done gets you a Silver,
21 + WvW Dailies Done gets you a Gold ParticipationI’m against tying this to dailies. Granted, most PvE players seem to have stopped to do them since HoT – or I just don’t see them anymore, but doing dailies is in most cases really easy and doesn’t really contribute: Big Spender, Veteran Creature Slayer, Land claimer – it’s easy to get at least 7 a week and you won’t help your team at all. Before you argue that dailies should be made harder – I like them as it is as in some MU you’re that hopelessly outnumbered that you can’t really do much – and sometimes it takes hours to get a tower – I usually never get the “keep capturer”. So people who are in a bad MU or have little time can still do their dailies.
You can however tie your weekly contribution to events – but then again it would still be “the more karma train a server can do, the better their rewards”.
I have to agree with you, on many of your points. And honestly, I fully understand what you are saying.
I want you to know that You have made a very valid point that I had not thought of, and that was that EotM would need to be removed from rewarding WvW dailies, because that would allow people to Karma-train to a Gold without doing a single thing for their respective server. So that would need to be fixed.
And you’re right, dailies should not be made harder for WvW, for the very reasons that you mentioned. Maybe, at most, doubling up on a few of them.
Minor revisions like making the super easy ones require a bit more quantity. IE:
Land Claimer Requires 2 Flags.
Caravan Disrupter Requires 3 Dolyaks.
This would be enough to make them still highly accessible to a regular WvW player, while making them less attractive to someone just trying to bronze&gone.
However, it is by intention that Bronze is not hard to get, that is to make it so that some people who can’t play every day can still very easy get that box. I mean, the idea here, is that even if they can only play 2 days a week, but really contribute, they could still get their reward. So it’s by intention that the Bronze is not hard to acquire. It’s to make WvW inclusive to anyone that steps up.
Equally so, We can all attest that even in a Bad match up, Land Claimer, Camp Capture, Caravan Disrupter, Guard Killer, and even Tower capture (if you are fast about it) are still very easy to get done, if you are willing to step out and play, making a Silver very easy to for any active contributing WvW Player to get, and making a Gold feasible for the WvW that goes out there every day, in all but the most obscene lop-sided match ups.
Yes, there will always be those that want to game the system, but, let them. They don’t really hurt anyone, even if they are not helping anyone either.
The idea is to just make it more fun for players that out there doing what they love.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I think before we can really discuss difficulty, first we need to establish if raids are in fact intended to be End-Game Content.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
And why can’t we have both? You’re talking as if raids take away from these other parts of the game, and they do not.
please point out the exact post or phrase used to indicate proof of your point of view that STIHL is saying anything about raids taking away from other aspects of the game.
throwing my 2 cents in the pot here. raids should feel epic. amirite? old time EQ player here and it was an everyday occurrence to wrangle 50-100 people (in groups of 6… no fancy raid UI, and no voice coms at first) for a planes raid. that’s epic… on a grand scale. much more recently i played DDO… and while the group size for a raid was much smaller (max group size 12)… for the most part the raids themselves still had an epic feel to them… trouping through a multi-part maze where 2 of the first 4 phases could kill you if you didn’t complete them quickly enough… one of which was a guaranteed fail if you didn’t complete in time… followed by 2 rounds of fighting a balor? that’s still epic even with reduced group size. exploring a gigantic dwarven-made extraplaner bank vault that had an ongoing story woven into it replete with love, betrayals, doublecrosses, and forced teamwork to solve all the puzzles… followed by a fight with an ancient red dragon who liked her adventurers roasty toasty and covered in ketchup. that was epic.
now in GW2… the first time i ran TTT… taxiing in people until the map was full to bursting… sorting people by what job to do.. each head with a different mechanic, and needing teamwork and coordination to kill them all at nearly the same time… THAT was epic… my first time facing a dragon (i think it was Jormag)…so many people on my screen they literally bought my computer to a halt… dealing with all the mechanics… being told to “stand here” and getting the crash landing achievement… when i wasn’t expecting it and had no idea what was going to happen (i have some friends who are practical jokers… they raised me at least XD)…. that… was epic.
my first time running the raid didn’t feel as epic. its like 2 trial runs… like… if you can’t kill these two, don’t even bother to pass GO do not collect 200 dollars, please step your way out of the raid now. then the “boss”… no epic trek to find the boss… no puzzles… no minions to mow through first….its just “oh look… there’s a platform… with the boss… lets do this…” followed by “dodge… green…. dodge…. bounce….green…. dodge… green… bounce… dodge… green…” etc rinse repeat for 5 phases. i’m sorry, but no. no offense to the designers, but that’s not epic
was it a good idea to make a raid? apparently, because for some reason everyone wanted them even tho we already had some pretty epic encounters in game, they just weren’t labeled “raids”…was this a good implementation? IMHO not really. does having a raid that isn’t epic and is really nothing more than a skill-gate take anything away from the mechanics and enjoyment of other encounters of various types and difficulties in game? nope.
Some people just like different things, I find the open world bosses all to be an extreme bore and a grind, they’re easy, you can’t lose them, there’s 100+ people who you have no control over, and you dont actively do anything other than just straight up attack the boss if you’re the majority of players, and even if you aren’t just autoattacking, then the mechanics still aren’t very engaging and you don’t feel like you’re doing much.
Raids are actually fun, nothing else in PvE is.
I have to agree, some people like different things, equally so, some people dislike different things, and yet others feel that some game elements don’t add to the game, or are even determent to the game community.
In some cases, it’s not even the content itself, it’s difficulty, or what it provides that is the issue, but the kind of people that it attracts to the game.
Case in point, I had someone send me hostile, insulting, nasty tells in game, while I was trying to enjoy a fractal, simply because I said on the forums “I think raids were a bad idea”, can you imagine how disjunctive that was, to be sent insulting hateful tells, simply for expressing an opinion? His opening attacks were so non-sequitur that I thought he had me confused with someone else. If that is the kind of person that raids being to this community, the community is much better off without them, and if that means the raids need to go away to get rid of that kind of toxic player base, then that would be what is best for the game and community. Equally so, it might not be the raids fault, we could try to justify that this person would have been that way no matter what, that they would have went off on personal attacks for anyone that did not adore any play style that they were a proponent of from fractals to open world, to whatever. While that could be true, they told me, during our very brief and abrasive exchange, that Raids were the only thing they enjoyed in GW2, thus logically, if we got rid of raids, we would also get rid of that kind of toxic player. In that front, it’s Not the raids fault, it is simply the kind of player it attracts.
But I don’t think everyone who enjoys raids is like that. I believe that was a isolated kind of incident.
To that effect, I have had civil discussions with other forum posters in game, and while we may disagree, we never came to insults, on top of that, I was also able to enjoy a Raid Training run with some amazing people, wonderful jovial folks, that were willing to be helpful, easygoing, and informative. And given we were all learning our roles, most of us painfully unprepared, to really take down the Vale Guardian, But no one got upset when the tank in training dodge rolled out of the arena, or the circle formed on the glowing section of the platform. We just dusted ourselves off and went at it again. But even with a band of misfits on a learning run, we still managed to drop the VG to around 50% most runs and even lower a few times, before something went wrong. And it was never an issue of gear, but often the biggest cause of death and wipe was just “Missed the Green”.
I can honestly say, content that your biggest cause of wipe comes from not running and standing in a green circle, is not content that I feel is a “Challenge” unless your game of choice when growing up was Simon Says™
In Closing It would be ideal if raids functioned as a means to bring the community together, where 10 people could gather and simply have some fun, thus larger groups, ,more pugs, and more friendly runs, as opposed to divide them.
The goal of any content should be designed to build up the community, make it stronger, and more accepting of each other, and any content that splits up the player base, and causes animosity and resentment among the players towards each other, is not profitable to the game or the community as a whole.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I am going to stand by what I first said in this topic.
I’ll chime in.
I am going to say that I think raids were a bad idea. It has nothing to do with how hard they are, or any of that, but simply that there really was no need for a 10 person dungeon in this game.
Also lets be honest with ourselves, when you have world meta events like Teq, TTT, Shatter, Jormag, which can take well over 20 people to do effectively, communication team work, people gathering for… a RAID… and then the boss and even the lakys are larger then life, these dragon heralds that rain death and fear upon those around them..minions that can rend you, all kinds of stuff going on, people really rally together for those events. And it’s… Beautiful!
In the face of the Meta Events in GW2, The Raids feel like a 10 man dungeon.
Now this is just me, but, a 10 man dungeon really just amounts to “Double the Pug” Experience.
Sorry, I get that some people love them and I am glad that they love them. but to me, the whole thing (while a complex dance to get it done) felt, small and insignificant for what should be this grandiose event.
I just could not really get into the idea that this was “Raid” when in GW2 there are meta events that fill maps with people, just to get them done.
In the end, I think they were a bad idea, simply because they don’t offer anything that could not have been provided as good, if not better, on a 5 Person scale.
Look at Thermanova Reactor Fractal, a very dynamic, twitch sensitive, and in may ways challenging encounter that required team effort.
The Fractal Underground Facility the content is engaging, requiring team work to open the doors, and get to the Boss fight, most people take part in it, and the boss fight, is, ok, I’ll admit, an annoying mechanic, it’s also a challenging one if you have to play it out fully and it requires thought and team work.
Even to use a “Story Dungeon” as an example, AC Story Mode, the Fight with the lovers. This was a wonderfully done encounter, where the players have to split them apart to be able to kill them. It requires team work and thought to make it happen.
They could have taken any of those mechanics and made them less forgiving, and that would be just as “Challenging” as the Raid is.
Not saying that people shouldn’t enjoy Raids, and I sincerely hope that people are having fun with them. Just between Fractals, World Bosses, Meta Events, and all the other Content, I personally just don’t feel like Raids added anything substantial to the game.
Anyway, with that said. Since I don’t see anything that really inspired me to change my mind since my first post on this subject, I will bow out and wish you all well.
Have a Great day.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
So you don’t have a “main” that can just do everything? idk… switching to a dedicated fractal character seems strange to me. If you say it’s cheaper, I believe you. But wouldn’t you rather not have to make another armor set, possibly another character to wear it, etc.?
For the record, I do this! I have different characters devoted to different content. I at one time had a main, but, as began to play more and do more diverse stuff, it simply became easier to make an alt devoted to a specific kind of content.
Yes, I get poked fun at by my guild mates sometimes, because I swap characters when we change what we are doing. Doing a Fractal, let me swap, Doing WvW, let me swap, going to run a Dungeon, Let me Swap, Wanna do some PvP, let me Swap.
Now they have made PvP easier so that I don’t need to swap, but.. I did that before the current change, so now it’s just kinda habit, which I am slowly breaking. Anyway, moving on.
But yes.. I have a dedicated Character just for Fractals, of course they can do other content, nothing is in fact stopping them, but, I have designed them to handle the fractal environment better then any other character I have.
To this end, I have made sure that all their Accessories are Infused and Upgraded, I focused on getting those +7’s Versatile, as well as the +10’s and +11’s. They are the one that I am focusing on full ascended for, right down to the Aquatic Weapons and Rebreather.
By dividing like this, it allows me to also realize I don’t need some things, like for example, since they are doing mainly fractals, that Run Speed Augment, that would be a must for my Open World and WvW characters, is not needed for that one, since none of the content is contingent upon run speed, it’s all pretty tight to be honest.
Also doing it this way, justifies my alts, if they are all built with a designed with the same purpose, then they are just simply distractions from each other, but each has a direct function, each becomes viable in their own way. If I have one main that could do it all, any other character becomes redundant or a distraction from my main Do-All. Or such is my mindset on the matter, no one needs to agree with me on this.
For me, by having characters that each have devoted functions, each gets played equally and I don’t feel like I am loosing progress if I play one over another, nor do I feel the need to outfit them equally. If they have what they need for what I want them for, then they are done.
Case in point, I have a warrior I do map exploration/guild events with, exotic armor/weapons, some ascended trinkets, nothing infused, and they are fully sufficient for the content they will face. If I put an infusion into them, it will be a +5 Stat, no Angoy. Equally so, for my WvW Character, any Infusion they get, will be in regards to WvW, -1% Damage from Guards, Etc.
This way, I never feel bad about what choices of upgrades I take, they have a function, and point. I don’t need 3 sets of armor on the same character, I have 3 separate characters, each might be a build better suited for what they do. IE: I have a Necro for WvW, and Ranger for Open World, and a Warrior I do Map Exploration with (Asura, so those pesky Jump Vistas are easier to do, well easier for me then a huge Norn)
Just saying, yes there are players that do this, and we have our reasons, nothing is ever odd, it’s just what works for them, To some of us, it’s easier to just swap Characters then it is to build 2 or more sets of gear for the Same Character. I guess it is all in how you play, and what you enjoy.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
The question becomes where the resources to build an easy mode will come from. I’m not going to argue about how much effort something takes since Gail Grey specifically said not to. (Link) The only designer who has done anything like that was Josh Foreman. (Kind of curious as to how many people used Infantile Mode and how much effort it took to build)
I still am sad recalling how all of of Josh Foreman’s effort’s didn’t stop the toxic backlash from the community when they weren’t satisfied with World 2 though, despite him making three different difficulty modes.
Well, it’s starting to happen that most of the Raid groups are solidifying into Static groups, which means less and less Pugs, or LFG openings only for specific roles and builds. That’s the nature of Raids.
Which is why I firmly believe that the Solution lies in a Story Mode Dungeon, and I am aware I said Dungeon not raid. A simple mode by which the casual player can do, that requires around 5 people.
The rewards would be nominal, like a paltry champion bag, maybe a single gold, and the ability to access the Collection and Collection Nodes.
As for where they would get the funds, well, as soon as they realize again that games serve the single purpose to be fun above all, and while this is just speculation from what I have seen on other sources like reddit, GW2 seems to have a much higher population of older more relaxed casual players.
If that is true, Anet will at some point have to downplay the difficultly of the game if they don’t want to risk alienating a substantial portion of their player base. Given, a large part of their motivation will most likely be to ensure better sales for their next expansion. This is Especially true, if the metrics show that this current expansion left their Casual player base feeling like all the only “fun” thing they got was gliding, because everything was simply not.. fun.
If that happens, I would rather see a “Story Dungeon” then the often Knee-Jerk route of Nerf the Raid till Everybody Wins.
Now, If I am wrong, about the Population and it’s divisions and how much Fun everyone was having, which I might be, then Anet won’t ever have the motive (and thus never have the funds) to revise the difficulty of the raid or anything else for that matter, and things will be as they are forever and ever.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
2) Reintroduce Map Completion (Gifts of Exploration) this is a necessary pipeline to bring new players to WVW experience.
^this^
I was actually disappointed to see it removed; it was a sure-fire way to get everyone to have to at least “stop in” WvW. Perfect time to “hook line and sinker”!
Link it to the New Legendary Armor!
Put in a Gift of The Borderlands for completing all 3 Borderland maps, and a Gift of the Invader for completing EB, and make them a required part of the collection to complete Legendary Armor.
I think that would revive WvW a bit.
This will just put people in wvw who don’t want to be there and it generates animosity toward the developers and the game.
As is, “play for free” players are not converting to “paid” players, so we don’t need more reasons for people to keep their wallets closed.
There are lots of rifts in this game and players are getting fed up with a lot of stuff, so let’s not encourage even more.
Not an issue with paid players, since it would be for Legendary Armor, they would need to be paid players, as Raids are part of HoT Expansion.
Everything else is totally unfounded, Since it’s enticement is purely for the Legendary Armor, we have already purged the Casuals, by putting the raid up as a requirement, we are left only with skilled players that like a challenge.
Since They were ambivalent to the plight of the casuals to need to up their game to face the content, why should they expect to be pandered to in the face of this new challenge, you would think they would be excited for the chance to work towards such a goal with such opportunity to up their own game.
Maybe instead of including wvw in the legendary armor grind they should just give wvw its own set of legendary armor that is a different skin.
That way it could be achieved in either game mode but if PvE players want to unlock the skin for their fashion achievement (or whatever the hell it is they care about) they will have to play wvw
I already discussed an advanced Armor/Weapons skin table for WvW in my above post.
Now think about this, In the current case with the Legendary Armor, Anet pretty much set the ideal stage for including WvW into this Armor Set, since they made it so that any player even thinking about doing this is first required to complete the Raid just to unlock the collection (and both raids just to complete it). That makes it the perfect gateway to move those players into WvW, since The Raid functions as a sieve blocking any Free2Play player and all but the most determined casual, unlike before where anyone that wanted Map Completion, either for title, or legendary, or just the fun of it, had to deal with WvW. That was design flaw, it drew everyone in, thus the problem was caused by too diverse a demographic.
With Legendary Armor that design flaw has been corrected, and it’s the perfect time to return the WvW requirement, as it would only apply to already self proclaimed “Hardcore” players seeking challenge, or the very determined casual player.
Both of which are exactly the kind of player we want to be… enticed into WvW and could in effect ideally contribute.
Since is would also be a much smaller group, it would not affect the majority of the game, the Raid Standard, This is the most opportune moment with the Legendary Armor Collection to return the WvW Requirement for completing a legendary again.
You can’t deny that.
And since the First Tier is already established, It would need to be applied to the Second, maybe Third Tier of the collection this would remove all but the determined players, and those people, well, they are exactly what WvW needs.
Forcing a requirement like that is not “enticement”.
Forcing people to do a Raid is not “enticement” either, but you are all for Anet doing just that. So why the sudden change of heart?
No I’m not and I’ve never said that.
I’m all for rewarding equally across the game, but anet won’t do that, so I provided suggestions to fill reward gaps in wvw by adding in ascended and some new legendary runes and sigils and infusions and trinkets.
I’m all for inclusive and challenging raids through difficulty settings, because it seems an option that anet would be more willing to do instead so all skill levels can do the content, experience the story first hand and be rewarded.
My bad. I did not recall correctly your stance. my Apologies.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
2) Reintroduce Map Completion (Gifts of Exploration) this is a necessary pipeline to bring new players to WVW experience.
^this^
I was actually disappointed to see it removed; it was a sure-fire way to get everyone to have to at least “stop in” WvW. Perfect time to “hook line and sinker”!
Link it to the New Legendary Armor!
Put in a Gift of The Borderlands for completing all 3 Borderland maps, and a Gift of the Invader for completing EB, and make them a required part of the collection to complete Legendary Armor.
I think that would revive WvW a bit.
This will just put people in wvw who don’t want to be there and it generates animosity toward the developers and the game.
As is, “play for free” players are not converting to “paid” players, so we don’t need more reasons for people to keep their wallets closed.
There are lots of rifts in this game and players are getting fed up with a lot of stuff, so let’s not encourage even more.
Not an issue with paid players, since it would be for Legendary Armor, they would need to be paid players, as Raids are part of HoT Expansion.
Everything else is totally unfounded, Since it’s enticement is purely for the Legendary Armor, we have already purged the Casuals, by putting the raid up as a requirement, we are left only with skilled players that like a challenge.
Since They were ambivalent to the plight of the casuals to need to up their game to face the content, why should they expect to be pandered to in the face of this new challenge, you would think they would be excited for the chance to work towards such a goal with such opportunity to up their own game.
Maybe instead of including wvw in the legendary armor grind they should just give wvw its own set of legendary armor that is a different skin.
That way it could be achieved in either game mode but if PvE players want to unlock the skin for their fashion achievement (or whatever the hell it is they care about) they will have to play wvw
I already discussed an advanced Armor/Weapons skin table for WvW in my above post.
Now think about this, In the current case with the Legendary Armor, Anet pretty much set the ideal stage for including WvW into this Armor Set, since they made it so that any player even thinking about doing this is first required to complete the Raid just to unlock the collection (and both raids just to complete it). That makes it the perfect gateway to move those players into WvW, since The Raid functions as a sieve blocking any Free2Play player and all but the most determined casual, unlike before where anyone that wanted Map Completion, either for title, or legendary, or just the fun of it, had to deal with WvW. That was design flaw, it drew everyone in, thus the problem was caused by too diverse a demographic.
With Legendary Armor that design flaw has been corrected, and it’s the perfect time to return the WvW requirement, as it would only apply to already self proclaimed “Hardcore” players seeking challenge, or the very determined casual player.
Both of which are exactly the kind of player we want to be… enticed into WvW and could in effect ideally contribute.
Since is would also be a much smaller group, it would not affect the majority of the game, the Raid Standard, This is the most opportune moment with the Legendary Armor Collection to return the WvW Requirement for completing a legendary again.
You can’t deny that.
And since the First Tier is already established, It would need to be applied to the Second, maybe Third Tier of the collection this would remove all but the determined players, and those people, well, they are exactly what WvW needs.
Forcing a requirement like that is not “enticement”.
Forcing people to do a Raid is not “enticement” either, but you are all for Anet doing just that. So why the sudden change of heart?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
2) Reintroduce Map Completion (Gifts of Exploration) this is a necessary pipeline to bring new players to WVW experience.
^this^
I was actually disappointed to see it removed; it was a sure-fire way to get everyone to have to at least “stop in” WvW. Perfect time to “hook line and sinker”!
Link it to the New Legendary Armor!
Put in a Gift of The Borderlands for completing all 3 Borderland maps, and a Gift of the Invader for completing EB, and make them a required part of the collection to complete Legendary Armor.
I think that would revive WvW a bit.
This will just put people in wvw who don’t want to be there and it generates animosity toward the developers and the game.
As is, “play for free” players are not converting to “paid” players, so we don’t need more reasons for people to keep their wallets closed.
There are lots of rifts in this game and players are getting fed up with a lot of stuff, so let’s not encourage even more.
Not an issue with paid players, since it would be for Legendary Armor, they would need to be paid players, as Raids are part of HoT Expansion.
Everything else is totally unfounded, Since it’s enticement is purely for the Legendary Armor, we have already purged the Casuals, by putting the raid up as a requirement, we are left only with skilled players that like a challenge.
Since They were ambivalent to the plight of the casuals to need to up their game to face the content, why should they expect to be pandered to in the face of this new challenge, you would think they would be excited for the chance to work towards such a goal with such opportunity to up their own game.
Maybe instead of including wvw in the legendary armor grind they should just give wvw its own set of legendary armor that is a different skin.
That way it could be achieved in either game mode but if PvE players want to unlock the skin for their fashion achievement (or whatever the hell it is they care about) they will have to play wvw
I already discussed an advanced Armor/Weapons skin table for WvW in my above post.
Now think about this, In the current case with the Legendary Armor, Anet pretty much set the ideal stage for including WvW into this Armor Set, since they made it so that any player even thinking about doing this is first required to complete the Raid just to unlock the collection (and both raids just to complete it). That makes it the perfect gateway to move those players into WvW, since The Raid functions as a sieve blocking any Free2Play player and all but the most determined casual, unlike before where anyone that wanted Map Completion, either for title, or legendary, or just the fun of it, had to deal with WvW. That was design flaw, it drew everyone in, thus the problem was caused by too diverse a demographic.
With Legendary Armor that design flaw has been corrected, and it’s the perfect time to return the WvW requirement, as it would only apply to already self proclaimed “Hardcore” players seeking challenge, or the very determined casual player.
Both of which are exactly the kind of player we want to be… enticed into WvW and could in effect ideally contribute.
Since is would also be a much smaller group, it would not affect the majority of the game, the Raid Standard, This is the most opportune moment with the Legendary Armor Collection to return the WvW Requirement for completing a legendary again.
You can’t deny that.
And since the First Tier is already established, It would need to be applied to the Second, maybe Third Tier of the collection this would remove all but the determined players, and those people, well, they are exactly what WvW needs.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
2) Reintroduce Map Completion (Gifts of Exploration) this is a necessary pipeline to bring new players to WVW experience.
^this^
I was actually disappointed to see it removed; it was a sure-fire way to get everyone to have to at least “stop in” WvW. Perfect time to “hook line and sinker”!
Link it to the New Legendary Armor!
Put in a Gift of The Borderlands for completing all 3 Borderland maps, and a Gift of the Invader for completing EB, and make them a required part of the collection to complete Legendary Armor.
I think that would revive WvW a bit.
This will just put people in wvw who don’t want to be there and it generates animosity toward the developers and the game.
As is, “play for free” players are not converting to “paid” players, so we don’t need more reasons for people to keep their wallets closed.
There are lots of rifts in this game and players are getting fed up with a lot of stuff, so let’s not encourage even more.
Not an issue with paid players, since it would be for Legendary Armor, they would need to be paid players, as Raids are part of HoT Expansion.
Everything else is totally unfounded, Since it’s enticement is purely for the Legendary Armor, we have already purged the Casuals, by putting the raid up as a requirement, we are left only with skilled players that like a challenge.
Since They were ambivalent to the plight of the casuals to need to up their game to face the content, why should they expect to be pandered to in the face of this new challenge, you would think they would be excited for the chance to work towards such a goal with such opportunity to up their own game.
You have to look at the bigger picture here.
If players wanted to be in wvw they would, legendary armor component hook will do nothing positive. Raid populations are not even big enough to make any difference here.
WvW needs its own set of rewards and personal progress, not gimmicks to force in players from a different game mode.
In the other topic, IIRC, you were fine with throwing Casual players to the curb, spouting that they should rise up to the challenge and have to play in a mode they may not like, what suddenly changed your mind about requiring players to rise up to meet new challenges and game modes?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
2) Reintroduce Map Completion (Gifts of Exploration) this is a necessary pipeline to bring new players to WVW experience.
^this^
I was actually disappointed to see it removed; it was a sure-fire way to get everyone to have to at least “stop in” WvW. Perfect time to “hook line and sinker”!
Link it to the New Legendary Armor!
Put in a Gift of The Borderlands for completing all 3 Borderland maps, and a Gift of the Invader for completing EB, and make them a required part of the collection to complete Legendary Armor.
I think that would revive WvW a bit.
This will just put people in wvw who don’t want to be there and it generates animosity toward the developers and the game.
As is, “play for free” players are not converting to “paid” players, so we don’t need more reasons for people to keep their wallets closed.
There are lots of rifts in this game and players are getting fed up with a lot of stuff, so let’s not encourage even more.
Not an issue with paid players, since it would be for Legendary Armor, they would need to be paid players, as Raids are part of HoT Expansion.
Everything else is totally unfounded, Since it’s enticement is purely for the Legendary Armor, we have already purged the Casuals, by putting the raid up as a requirement, we are left only with skilled players that like a challenge.
Since They were ambivalent to the plight of the casuals to need to up their game to face the content, why should they expect to be pandered to in the face of this new challenge, you would think they would be excited for the chance to work towards such a goal with such opportunity to up their own game.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
It’s funny how people feel like they’re entitled to something. I’d be okay if they made a story mode that gave little to no reward. Raids are supposed to be challenging content, I already personally feel raids are too easy.
You’re right! We need to make things Harder!
We need to Require Diamond Rank Ranked PvP!
We need to require WvW Diamond Rank and WvW Map Completion as well!
Lets make this a real challenge! Why wimp out at just PvE scrub content!
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Skins and titles are prestige event, not gear. Making 18 different legendary pieces locked behind raids is beyond stupid and contradicts whole GW2 ideology.
Depend. If the raid legendary armor is the only legendary armor available in the game then I agree. If by the time they launch the 3rd wing, they add other legendary armor with different skin in other game mode like PvP, Open World or WvW, then I disagree because then only this particular legendary armor skin is locked behind raids, not the legendary armor as a gear.
I could see a set of Mainland Tyria of Legendary Armor. I would LOVE to see WVW get some Legendary Love, in the way of Items as well.
I mean, we all know that they removed WvW from map completion, because the Anet team learned that their players did not like being cohered into doing content that they did not like, hopefully they will not make the same mistake with raids today.
Well all know that they are only doing this to spike the interest in this content, so that the numbers look good so they can get the green light to continue it.
As such, if Anet opts to persist down this path of trying to enforce some kind of “Challenge” into the acquisition of Legendary Armor, I do so dearly hope that don’t go half way and stop at the Raids being the only “Challenge” they put.
Since they seem to be a kick in regards to Ranked and Stronghold, they should put those in as Requirements, they would help spike those numbers, so they can get more vested interest into that division, which is what they are looking for.
Also Add in WvW Contribution, like Map Completion to spike some interest into that play style as well, because that seems to be lacking these days, so, forcing the treasure hunters back into that domain would be good for the metrics as well.
Just saying.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Hmm well since fractals seems to focus on events in the past they could just add some of the dungeon content to factals, close off the old dungeons except for the story paths. Then use fractals as a sort of dungeon lobby/portal, while still rewarding dungeon tokens. Then use this mechanic add new dungeons. Since they have a team for fractals it gets to be the new dungeon team!
I’m kinda tired of the 3 fractal set up with not much in the way of rewards.
So basically make fractals the launch point for all dungeons and make the rewards for each path cleared to reflect the difficulty or length of the path. For example, easy paths may rewards rares, medium paths can rewards rares and exotics, stupid hard paths have a chance at ascended gears. Or perhaps the more difficult the path the more tokens you get, while adding ascended versions of gear to the dungeon token vendor for a crap ton of tokens. This would allow for a lot of freedom when adding new paths or content and adjusting the rewards as time goes by. It’s a total fractal rework that people may possibly find fun!This idea came about because the dungeon rewards vendor got consolidated to one NPC, so I say consolidate dungeons and fractals, and take the best parts of both
Of course this is all entirely what I would like to see and my own opinion.
I could get behind this as well, I have already suggested Closing the Explorer Paths in the dungeons, if they are just going to Abandon them.
But, what they could do is have Each Explorer Path be it’s own Fractal, we would add 43 new Fractals this way, not including Aetherpath, which, to be honest, could and should be it’s own Dungeon.
Put in a Vendor at the end of the each of the Dungeon Fractals, that would sell Corresponding Dungeon Tokens for Fractal Relics at a 1:1 ratio.
Have Beating a Dungeon Fractal, count towards Dungeon Master.
Great idea overall.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Well I suppose when they close down the LS2, I would like to see the
From “Point of No Return”
The Mystery Cave Encounter put in, just the Dragon Fight, really, don’t need the back story.
From “Seeds of Truth”
Meeting the Asura Encounter Put in. Only after the memory is Triggered, and we Escort Cathe, we don’t transform.
From “Tangled Paths”
Into the Labyrinth that would be a long fractal, but a fun one.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
2) Reintroduce Map Completion (Gifts of Exploration) this is a necessary pipeline to bring new players to WVW experience.
^this^
I was actually disappointed to see it removed; it was a sure-fire way to get everyone to have to at least “stop in” WvW. Perfect time to “hook line and sinker”!
Link it to the New Legendary Armor!
Put in a Gift of The Borderlands for completing all 3 Borderland maps, and a Gift of the Invader for completing EB, and make them a required part of the collection to complete Legendary Armor.
I think that would revive WvW a bit.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Ok, having read everything back and forth now. I am more convinced then ever, that Anet needs to put in a “Story Mode” for their Raid.
Not varying scales, not make a easier raid. But make a Dungeon Difficulty style Story Mode, for the casual player.
From everything I have read, and see, honestly, there is nothing gained by trying to conscript or coheres casuals players into doing what is hardcore content. Just as there was nothing gained from trying to enforce PvE players into doing WvW Content, and that was why they removed the WvW requirement from Map Completion, that same reason is why they should make a Story Mode for the Raid.
It’s not the raid that was a bad idea, it was trying to force everyone into the same skill bracket that was the bad idea.
And a side note, I would like to see some rewards given for WvW Map Completion, maybe put a Legendary Armor Series into WvW as well.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Ok, having read everything back and forth now. I am more convinced then ever, that Anet needs to put in a “Story Mode” for their Raid.
Not varying scales, not make a easier raid. But make a Dungeon Difficulty style Story Mode, for the casual player.
From everything I have read, and see, honestly, there is nothing gained by trying to conscript or coheres casuals players into doing what is hardcore content. Just as there was nothing gained from trying to enforce PvE players into doing WvW Content, and that was why they removed the WvW requirement from Map Completion, that same reason is why they should make a Story Mode for the Raid.
It’s not the raid that was a bad idea, it was trying to force everyone into the same skill bracket that was the bad idea.
And a side note, I would like to see some rewards given for WvW Map Completion, maybe put a Legendary Armor Series into WvW as well.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
This conversation is indeed off the rails.
Regarding difficult v exclusive: We are arguing about semantics with no substance. I think we can agree that everyone has the potential to raid. I think we can also agree that not everyone is at that skill level.
Regarding gear: I think it’s fair to criticize having the wrong gear to raid. While I’m sure it’s possible to beat the bosses in whatever gear, it will not happen in a pug group or with inexperienced players. You can’t win pvp in whatever gear. You can’t win wvw in whatever gear. And you would be carried in instanced pve content in whatever gear.
Regarding alternatives to raids: There is tons of pve content at the easy mode raid skill level. An easy mode raid, with no reward and no difficulty, has no replayability. Other content, like dungeons, fractals, and open world, is more suited to the criteria you’re looking for.
Hard content in this game does not have an easy mode, because there is tons of other content. There was no easy mode liadri, because there were other bosses in the Queens gambit. There’s no easy mode arah, because there are easier dungeon paths to experience. There’s no easy mode not so secret jumping puzzle, because there are easier jumping puzzles. Similarly, there should be no easy mode raids, because there’s fractals, dungeons, and open world.
I agree that content has been irregular since HOT. No new dungeons or fractals. Fractal revamp a mess. Dungeon nerf. I think this is the real problem, not raids.
I would like to interject a point a point. Following all your Previous Logic.
:IE:
You can have hard Jumping Puzzles because you have easy Jumping Puzzles
You can have Hard Dungeons Because You have easy Dungeons
The Logical Progression Should be.
You can have Hard raids Because You have Easy Raids
Which is.. badum-Tish!
What people are asking for.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
Well, debates and discussions usually require one to back up their points. You do make a lot of points though….lots of points….
Nothing stopping you from Googling them (or use Bing if that’s your thing) , the Information is at your fingertips.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I am all for raids, I think players should have their little sand box to play in and whatever makes them feel special and important, my only issue with a raid at this point, is it’s impact on World Collections, notably Legendary Armor.
not everyone is supposed to get every legendary
You could look at it that way, not a smart way to look at it from the Developer/Company Poi, but to be fair, it is a very common gamer view.
In the reality of things, from a broader scope, Casuals make up the bulk of the gaming industry, and MMO’s are coming out all the time, just looking to snatch them up. For the Hardcore players, most of them are moving to MOBA’s where the real challenge is, against another player. So, in a game as PvE as GW2, can they afford to alienate their Casuals?
Well, we will find out, one way or another, sooner or later.
I’ve said my bit. Not open for discussion or debate really, my feelings won’t change, and I don’t think yours will either.
Good day.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Just look at the definitions. I blatantly disagree that difficult and exclusive are the same thing. Why? You can overcome difficulties. You can’t overcome content you are excluded from.
Back when I was the Hardcore player, we would just say “Learn to Play”, and pass that off as the have all, end all of the discussion.
Truth is, it’s not that easy. As you learn about the world, you grow up and realize that some people have physical limitations, everything from arthritis to missing limbs, to simply not having the manual dexterity, and they know they will never ever, have the twitch control required to do this content. Some people have lives, they really could not sit around and devote the next 5 months to a single project, forsaking all other means of gaming, it simply was not going to happen. Sure, you can say “You’re Not being stopped” but in the end, the difficulty of the encounter is directly stopping them, demanding from them something they either can’t provide or, the Reward is not worth the price they will have to pay just to progress in what is to them, just a game, nothing more then a time passing hobby. Not something they wanted to turn into a part time job, or a means of self validation. Truth is, as you get involved in diverse Hobbies, and believe this or not, there are a lot of people who are into hobbies that they will never be good at, but enjoy doing it at their own slow and in some cases sloppy way, anyway. MMO’s are not an exception to this.
Now, I get that I am speaking into the void at this point. In the end, well, it’s not your choice or my choice what will happen, so this discussion is overt for me, as I see no further gain on my part for continuing it, I’ll leave with this final thought.
It’s not as simple as “Learn to Play”
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I am all for raids, I think players should have their little sand box to play in and whatever makes them feel special and important, my only issue with a raid at this point, is it’s impact on World Collections, notably Legendary Armor.
Give players an alternate means to get that collection, and I’ll be happy. Have your super hard raids and elite content, enjoy!
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@STIHL
It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..
Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.
Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.
That doesn’t even make sense. We all know that Harder equates to being Exclusive, as such using the Analogy is correct.
Gotta disagree with you there my friend.
Ok Following that Logic.
We can remove any nation that making it a Easy will Destroy it, Invalidate it, or Ruin it, or Hurt it in any manner, as Easy is not Synonym, of Hurt, Destroy, Invalidate, or Ruin.
Also, Harder, is not Synonymous with Better, Fun, Rewarding, Accomplishment, Pride, Value, or Importance
So, by your own Logic, you have just invalidated every stand you put out to not make the raid a super easy cake walk.
If that is what your goal was, congratulations, you just shot your own argument apart.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I put this on another Topic, but I’ll put here as well:
4: Balance PPT. Or more Accurately put, dealing with Capping during gaps in Coverage, and being Outmanned.
This would require a massive overhaul in how PPT worked, but I think it would do wonders for the game.
4-A Borderland PPT. Each Team, on their own Borderland, would get 5 PPT for any Camp They Controlled, 10 for Towers, 20 for Keeps.
On an Enemy’s Borderland, they would get 1PPT per Camp for each Active Defender on that Borderland. , 2 for a Tower, and 3 for a Keep. (Note: You can only be a Defender on your OWN borderland) up to a max of 20 Defenders Counted (IE: Max Gain for a Camp would be 20 PPT, if there were 20 Active Defenders On the Borderland) this number would be Divided by the Number of Invaders on that Borderland that Controlled said Camp/Tower/Keep.
IE: (Point Value* Defenders (max 20)) * (Defenders / Controlling Invader)
Note, every Borderland would have by Default 1 Active Player counted at all times. So, no one could get Zero Points. IE: If no one was on the Borderland, it would sill count as if there was 1 Active Player from all Sides.
To explain that: If Red owned one of Greens Keeps, they would get 3PPT per Active Green Player on Greens Borderland, Divided by the Number of Active Red players on Greens Borderland.
IE: Red Owns Greens Keep, Green has Default 1 Active Player, on the Borderland (No one), but Red, has 4 Active Invaders on the map. 3*(1/4) is what they would get for the keep, put another way, 3*.25 = 0.75 PPT.
Using another Example.
Red owns a Camp on Greens BL. There are 10 Active Green Defenders, and 2 Active Red Invaders. That camp is worth 10 (1PPT per Defender) *(10/2) = 50. Now that camp is worth 50 PPT to the Red Team, but they are also 2 people defending against 10 Defenders, it stands to reason that camp is not going to last long.
One more analogy to understand the Math a Bit More.
Green Owns Red’s Camp. There are 5 Red Defenders, and 1 Green Invader
Blue Owns Red’s Keep. There are the same 5 Red Defenders, but there are 12 Blue Invaders.
Camp = 1 PPT / Per Defender, Total Base 5
Keep = 3PPT/Per Defender, Total Base 15
Green gets 5*(5/1) = 25. So that Camp is worth 25 PPT to the Green Team
Blue gets 15*(5/12) = 6.25. So that Tower is worth 6.25 PPT to the Blue Team.
That means that the Camp to Green is worth 4 times what the Keep is worth to Blue. This means the game changes from sheer capped points to playing a game of strategic capping.
This would eliminate the whole problem of winning through coverage gaps, or winning by sheer volume of players. Which is really the main problem with PPT, is how it can be exploited, and doing this would close that loophole in the PPT problem we have right now, especially with the low and mid population server, that simply don’t have the coverage.
4-B Eternal Battlegrounds.
The Battle grounds are divided up by 3 sections and Stone Mist castle. This creates a very special situation.
To do this, Each Team would have Declared “Home Lands” that would provide them a Flat PPT if they Control it, exactly like their own Borderland. This would include their 20 for their, Keep, 10 for their 4 Towers, and 5 for their 2 Camps.
If they took another Teams Homeland, it would function as if they entered their Borderland. IE: (Value) * (Defender/Controlling Invader).
IE: If Green took Blues Keep. They would get (Keep*Active) * (Defenders/Controlling Invader) in this, Red’s active players do not come into play.
So, the Same Keep could be worth a lot More to one team over another.
For Example, if there are 20 Red, 27 Blue, and 7 Green.
Blues Keep is Worth 81 PPT to Red but worth 231 PPT to Green.
The Keep is only worth so much, because of the 27 Active Blue Players on the map, giving the Keep a value of 3PPT* Active Blue, Max 20. So only 20 of the 27 Players are counted, but the Keep is still worth 60PPT Base.
In Contrast, Geens’s Points are not Worth as Much, since there are only 7 active players, their Keeps base is a Paltry 21 PPT.
And Since they are vastly outnumbered, Greens Keep is only worth 7.3 PPT to Red, and 5.4 PPT to Blue.
It works pretty much the same as if you tied to take a Borderland, just in a smaller scale, but we can see how smart play, over simply brute force and capping can win the day with this kind of system.
Moving on.
The Mack Daddy – Stone Mist!
Stonemist, would and should be a prize. As Such Stonemist would Net a flat 100 PPT * (Both Active Teams/Controller)
IE: If there were 20 Blue Players, 35 Red Players, 40 Green players, and Green owned Stonemist.
100 * ((20+35)/40) = 137 PPT.
Now Imagine, if Blue Flips it.
100 * ((35+40)/20) = 375 PPT.
This idea would remove the sting of Night Capping, or Coverage Gaps, as well as the whole issue of getting rolled by a larger servers. It would reward smart play vs what we have now.
Now, Notice I have said Active Players this needs to be a way to distinguish between active and just on the map. Which happens, IE: What about the people there for crafting or banking, or whatever.
Any player with the “invulnerable” buff you get for being in the “Safe Area” would NOT be counted as Active.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
@STIHL
It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..
Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.
Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.
That doesn’t even make sense. We all know that Harder equates to being Exclusive, as such using the Analogy is correct.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@STIHL
It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..
Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
4: Balance PPT/PPK. Or more Accurately put, dealing with Capping during gaps in Coverage, and being Outmanned.
This would require a massive overhaul in how PPT worked, but I think it would do wonders for the game.
4-A Borderland PPT. Each Team, on their own Borderland, would get 5 PPT for any Camp They Controlled, 10 for Towers, 20 for Keeps.
On an Enemy’s Borderland, they would get 1PPT per Camp for each Active Defender on that Borderland. , 2 for a Tower, and 3 for a Keep. (Note: You can only be a Defender on your OWN borderland) up to a max of 20 Defenders Counted (IE: Max Gain for a Camp would be 20 PPT, if there were 20 Active Defenders On the Borderland) this number would be Divided by the Number of Invaders on that Borderland that Controlled said Camp/Tower/Keep.
IE: (Point Value* Defenders (max 20)) * (Defenders / Controlling Invader)
Note, every Borderland would have by Default 1 Active Player counted at all times. So, no one could get Zero Points. IE: If no one was on the Borderland, it would sill count as if there was 1 Active Player from all Sides.
To explain that: If Red owned one of Greens Keeps, they would get 3PPT per Active Green Player on Greens Borderland, Divided by the Number of Active Red players on Greens Borderland.
IE: Red Owns Greens Keep, Green has Default 1 Active Player, on the Borderland (No one), but Red, has 4 Active Invaders on the map. 3*(1/4) is what they would get for the keep, put another way, 3*.25 = 0.75 PPT.
Using another Example.
Red owns a Camp on Greens BL. There are 10 Active Green Defenders, and 2 Active Red Invaders. That camp is worth 10 (1PPT per Defender) *(10/2) = 5. Now that camp is worth 5 PPT to the Red Team, but they are also 2 people defending against 10 Defenders, it stands to reason that camp is not going to last long.
One more analogy to understand the Math a Bit More.
Green Owns Red’s Camp. There are 5 Red Defenders, and 1 Green Invader
Blue Owns Red’s Keep. There are the same 5 Red Defenders, but there are 12 Blue Invaders.
Camp = 1 PPT / Per Defender, Total Base 5
Keep = 3PPT/Per Defender, Total Base 15
Green gets 5*(5/1) = 25. So that Camp is worth 25 PPT to the Green Team
Blue gets 15*(5/12) = 6.25. So that Tower is worth 6.25 PPT to the Blue Team.
That means that the Camp to Green is worth 4 times what the Keep is worth to Blue. This means the game changes from sheer capped points to playing a game of strategic capping.
This would eliminate the whole problem of winning through coverage gaps, or winning by sheer volume of players. Which is really the main problem with PPT, is how it can be exploited, and doing this would close that loophole in the PPT problem we have right now, especially with the low and mid population server, that simply don’t have the coverage.
4-B Eternal Battlegrounds.
The Battle grounds are divided up by 3 sections and Stone Mist castle. This creates a very special situation.
To do this, Each Team would have Declared “Home Lands” that would provide them a Flat PPT if they Control it, exactly like their own Borderland. This would include their 20 for their, Keep, 10 for their 4 Towers, and 5 for their 2 Camps.
If they took another Teams Homeland, it would function as if they entered their Borderland. IE: (Value) * (Defender/Controlling Invader).
IE: If Green took Blues Keep. They would get (Keep*Active) * (Defenders/Controlling Invader) in this, Red’s active players do not come into play.
So, the Same Keep could be worth a lot More to one team over another.
For Example, if there are 20 Red, 27 Blue, and 7 Green.
Blues Keep is Worth 81 PPT to Red but worth 231 PPT to Green.
The Keep is only worth so much, because of the 27 Active Blue Players on the map, giving the Keep a value of 3PPT* Active Blue, Max 20. So only 20 of the 27 Players are counted, but the Keep is still worth 60PPT Base.
In Contrast, Geens’s Points are not Worth as Much, since there are only 7 active players, their Keeps base is a Paltry 21 PPT.
And Since they are vastly outnumbered, Greens Keep is only worth 7.3 PPT to Red, and 5.4 PPT to Blue.
It works pretty much the same as if you tied to take a Borderland, just in a smaller scale, but we can see how smart play, over simply brute force and capping can win the day with this kind of system.
Moving on.
The Mack Daddy – Stone Mist!
Stonemist, would and should be a prize. As Such Stonemist would Net a flat 100 PPT * (Both Active Teams/Controller)
IE: If there were 20 Blue Players, 35 Red Players, 40 Green players, and Green owned Stonemist.
100 * ((20+35)/40) = 137 PPT.
Now Imagine, if Blue Flips it.
100 * ((35+40)/20) = 375 PPT.
This idea would remove the sting of Night Capping, or Coverage Gaps, as well as the whole issue of getting rolled by a larger servers. It would reward smart play vs what we have now.
Now, Notice I have said Active Players this needs to be a way to distinguish between active and just on the map. Which happens, IE: What about the people there for crafting or banking, or whatever.
Any player with the “invulnerable” buff you get for being in the “Safe Area” would NOT be counted as Active.
I believe that PPK should be 1PPK, unless the outmanned buff is up, and then it’s 0 PPK to kill an Outmanned Opponent, but they get 2PPK for killing someone with an Outmanned buff on.
Simple enough with that.
5: The Making of Guild Alliance.
Ok that sounds a lot more dramatic then it is, in reality, all I am doing is basically asking players to pick their WvW Server after they started playing the game, as opposed to needing to pick the server when they walk in the door.
As I see it, there would be 10 Established “Alliances” which would be, loosely what Servers as we know them today that Guilds Could Join. I believe Naming them after Famous People would be Ideal, like the ‘Old Roar’ Alliance
Anyway, not to get wrapped up in names. Moving on to the Important part.
There would be 10 Public Alliances. Any Guild of Any Size, Could join a Public Alliance, with no limit to the number of Guilds that could join them.
However, guilds would change a Bit. Guilds would need to be flagged for WvW to Join an Alliance.
To Stop everyone and their Brother from joining Alliances and just making a mess, Each Guild, would only be given 1 Free Flag, this could be used to Flag the Guild for PvE, PvP, or WvW. Additional Flags would be 1000 Gems each. Payable by the guild, individual Members could donate up to 10 gems to help pay for it. Yes, the design here is for a guild that does not do much WvW to not get involved in it, and allow WvW centric Guilds to be just that, WvW Centric.
Once a Guild Joins an Alliance, All its members become a part of that Alliance, if a Guidl Changes it’s Alliance, all its members move with the change. No longer would a guild have members staying behind in old servers and what have you. If the Guild moves, everyone moves with it.
Each Guild could Join One Alliance for Free. Any Transfers after that would cost 1000 Gems, each member could donate up to 50 Gems to fund the move, leaving the GL to pick up the rest of the tab. This is designed so that either the Guild Leader foots the Bill, or they have the backing of at least several members to make the move. But, no one would get left behind. The Guild Moves, the entire guild moves.
Now this is a much smaller cost then what we have now, with around 500 gems per person in the guild. This is 1000 gems and everyone moves, if you had 10 members that saving 4000 Gems, if you had 100 members that’s 49000 Gems. It’s a huge saving, and it would remove any issues with who did and did not stay.
Now, there would be a trick here, to prevent (or at least lessen) spying, an account could only be in 1 WvW Flagged Guild. That way, you don’t have players being a part of several alliances at once. You pick your Team, and you stick with it, if you don’t like the team, you leave it and join another, you don’t play on two teams.
Players could not Rep a Guild that was not Flagged for what they were doing. IE: If they are in PvE, they could not rep a Guild that did not have a PvE Flag, if they were in SPvP same applies, the guild would need to be flagged for it.
Guilds that required 100% Rep would need to pay for the Extra Flags, this could be another way for Guilds to Enforce their 100% rep policy, by having that WvW Flag. When a player enters WvW, they would auto-rep their WvW Guild.
A player could be part of more than one PvE guild or PvP guild. Only WvW would have the 1 guild limitation, so if players had a social guild, they could flag for PvE or PvP and keep their social guild.
What about, wanting to run with friends. Well, much like today, if you are not on the same server, you could not run with them, if you are on the same server, you can run with them, if you want a social guild to link you all together, flag it for PvE or PvP and it becomes a cozy Chat Channel.
If a player was not in a Guild, they would become tagless, and only be allowed to go to EotM, if they wanted to WvW. There they could find a WvW Centric Guild, or even find one in PvE content, since players can advertise their guilds, even if they are not repping that guild.
The idea here is simple, it’s guild wars, allow guilds to control who they want to war with.
Now, Guilds could also buy a Private Alliance. It would require 5 Guild leaders, of WvW Flagged Guilds to apply for the Alliance, and then they would vote on anyone that wants to join it. 50%+ required to be accepted.
Simple enough.
Private Alliances could Challenge other Private Alliances, it does not mean they will fight, only that they have a much higher chance to fight. IF a T1 Alliance challenges a T8 alliance, there is a better then good chance, that fight is never gonna happen. If a T7 alliance challenges a T6 alliance, they would have around a 75% greater chance to matched up.
Again,. Simple enough.
I think this would really, change and improve the Landscape for WvW for everyone.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I realize that I am a late poster on this, but I’ll try my hand here.
The Top 5 things I want from a WvW Change/Revamp.
1: First and Foremost. Make it Fun!
Allow me to explain this. I know that the developers and designers are very used to being the sole providers of challenge to their players, by their efforts are the means by which the game engages the players, but WvW is special in that it is the players that provide the challenge, we bring the game, the Developers just need to set the stage and allow us to play it out.
In this venture, and if a Developer is reading this, please don’t take this wrong way, and while I can see the care, the consideration, and sheer volume of work put into the Deseret Borderlands, they are, for lack of a better way to put this.. Too much. The emphases needs to be on the Players vs Players, not them struggling to deal with the Environment along with each other. When it comes to WvW, that is more the time to step back a bit. Don’t try to pit your skill against us, in fact, your job should be to allow us to engage each other in a fun environment. if I have to focus on the PvE in a WvW map, that pulls from the enjoyment of WvW. I enjoy working on capturing or defending objectives, not struggle to get around a canyon.
So, Keeping it Simple, Makes it fun.
2: Reward for Everyone!
Players won’t do something for nothing. Sure, we might do some things just to see what happens, but let’s be honest, often times, that is exactly what the developers don’t want us doing (evil laugh)
My Suggestion is that WvW needs its own style of Reward System.
PvE has, well a million ways to reward players. PvP has their Reward Tracks.
WvW needs to have their own niche in this reward realm as well.
First off, Lets be honest here, loot from WvW is lacking, from badges to gold, loot in WvW seems very bare bones to say the least.
_2-A: Fixed Rewards. _
Right now we have this variable loot drop based on contribution, that’s fine, but there needs to be a Fixed Reward for every Player, Camp , Tower, Keep Lord killed, that everyone that so much as hit them once, gets, no matter how much or little they did. This no one ends up feeling slighted during a WvW capture or conflict. Everyone should get something just for being a part of it. yes those that did more still get their extra loot for their extra effort, but everyone gets at bare minimum of loot.
Nothing Discourages players more than getting stiffed from a kill.
That brings us to.
2-B: WvW Contribution Rewards.
There is should a reward for how well you placed at the end of any given week.
1st Place – Reward Box (Bronze/Silver/Gold)
2nd Place – Reward Box (Bronze/Silver/Gold)
3rd Place – Reward Box (Bronze/Silver/Gold)
But this needs to be reserved for people that Contribute, not just log in one day at reset and never again for the rest of the week. The Way this would work, Bronze/Silver/Gold would be contingent upon how many WvW Dailies you did in a given week. A player would need to do at least 7 WvW dailies just to be eligible to receive the weekly award box at all.
So the Breakdown would be like this:
7 -13 WvW Dailies Done – gets you a Bronze.
14- 20 WvW Dailies Done gets you a Silver,
21 + WvW Dailies Done gets you a Gold Participation
This way, even if they could do all 4 per day, they would still need to be out there for at least 2 days doing stuff just to get a Bronze Box of however well their server placed. If they placed 2nd, they would get a 2nd Place Bronze Box.
For the Active WvW player, getting in 21 of a possible 28, would not be hard at all. So getting a gold would not be that difficult, and you would not ever need to do a day where you had to do all 4 dailies. 3 a day over 7 days would be enough for a gold. Equally so, even if you did all 4 per day, it would take you 6 days to get the gold.
What these Boxes contain, would need to be worked out.
I would wager they Should be something along the lines of:
5 to 10 Gold
Black Lion Key
Transmutation Charge
100 Badges.
a few Champion Bags.
3: Even More Reward.
Lets be real, nothing says “validation” more than having your own little items reserved for you. In this front I believe that Badges of Honor and Proof of Heroics should be the currency for “Invader” gear. However, I believe like Tiered Cultural Armor, what should be Offered is Tiered Invader Items.
What this means is that each Tier of Invader has their own Merchant with their Own Prices, that provides Exclusive Gear just for them. However, you can always access lower tier merchants, IE: A Silver Tiered player can still buy from the Bronze Tier Merchant.
What should be Offered:
Armor – and as opposed to it being solid in various sets, just set the armor to pick you own stats.
Weapons – Same Deal as Armor
Commander Tags
Food – Effects that are WvW Centric, IE: +5% Damage with Siege, +5 Supply Capacity
Oils – Effects that are WvW Centric. (See above)
Back Skins – Flags, Banner Poles, Etc.
Shoulder Skins- Flags, Banners, Etc.
Bracer Skins – Flags, Banners, Etc.
Siege – IE: Silver and Above Could buy Superior at Discounted Prices, Platinum and Above could buy Legendary Siege.
While anyone could buy the Standard Invader Armor currently available, with Each Tier starting with Bronze, would have their own Unique Skin Set for Armor. While the Weapons would be the same Skin, I propose that each tier has their own noticeable color theme.
I am sure this might take time, and my suggestion should be put in, Top Down, IE: Put in the Stuff for Diamond Tier First, and Then work down to Bronze Tier. That way, people can have something to work for, while no one is left with the “Well when do us Diamond Players get stuff?” I mean all know that if you play WvW long enough you will get Diamond Tier eventually. So put that in First, and let them know, more is coming.
This also stops people from just going into WvW to farm for Badges and Proofs, thinking they are just gonna buy something.. Nope.. gotta earn that new shiny!
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I have made my point however about being excluded and entitlement.
While every elitist who was calling for Keeping raids Hard suddenly changed their Tune when faced with being locked out of Content saying that it was wrong, even if the content would be far below their skill level, and a waste of their time, since they could get Better by doing “Raid Mode” they still wanted access to it, because they felt entitled to it.
Whereas, every Casual had already mentally Clicked “Story Mode” with zero regrets.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
I get the feeling, a lot of players who are complaining about being excluded from raiding are simply inexperienced to either this game, or MMO’s in general. They bought this game, did the main story, ran a few events, and said “WELP, it’s time to get into the most hard-core content this game has to offer!”
Also for the record, I have played MMO’s for a long time, I have raided, and I’ll be honest, the Raid in this game, no offence to the dev team, I am sure they put in a lot of work and effort, but was as uninspired as they come, a painfully distilled generic Tank&Spank in the purest form, with quite literally.. Nothing else to it.
So lets not fool ourselves about what this raid offers, The only thing that would remotely inspire anyone to do this kind of lack-luster bland encounter beyond the first time is Loot.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@STIHL
Here’s my issue with this. You’re creating content that FORCES you to be excluded from one or the other in your scenario. This is not the case with raiding in this game. No one is telling “casuals” that they can not raid. It simply demands a bit of extra work as this is the true, end-game, end-all content.
Actually, by maintaining that it should be hard (IE: Exclusive) that is exactly what you are saying. Using different words does not change the message.
And there is no “End-All-Content” there is always next patch, next update, next expansion.
Just saying.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.
Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.
However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.
This is an important topic for many of us.
You are correct, it is an agenda. But one is an agenda of inclusion, the other is one of exclusion.
If I was going to push an Agenda, my goal would be to make the game fun for the most amount of of people, possible, and to make content that was inclusive to as many demographics as I was able.
The truth is, no one enjoys being excluded from Content, I can promise you, everyone here that clamoring for Raids to be exclusive to the less then elite, would be appalled and indigent if Anet made content that somehow barred the elite player.
Allow me to put forth an idea. Imagine if there was a Story Mode or Raid Mode, for the new content. But you could only do one of them. You had to pick, if you did the Story, your account would locked out from the Raid, if you did the Raid, your account would be locked out from the Story.
While the story Mode and the Raid, would offer the same ability to complete any world collections, they each also had their own unique Armor Skins weapon Skins, the raid would have them as random Drops, the Story Mode would reward them for completing Achievements, they would be account bound, so they could not be sold on the BL. The raid of course would also drop it’s ascended items, extra loots and what have you, where the Story would give you some nominal coinage, and a generic champion bag, not much. In the name of Fairness, the Weapon Skins would identical, except for one would be Red and the other Blue.
I can promise you, that every elite player that is praising the exclusion that raids provide them, would be livid over this.
They would lose their minds over being excluded from content that was geared for casuals, and they would feel entitled to take part in it, so much so that some of them would make alt account, just to run that casual content. Simply because, they felt that they were owed it. I know this because, while I have become more casual over the many years I have played, at one time I was a very hardcore player. While maybe people who were always casual don’t grasp that, I do, in a very real sense. I was hard core back in the days when 17 hour farms, and 10 hour raids, where the norm, 48 hour week end splurges living on MtDew and Cheetos, was, “Catching Up” Now days, I’m older, job, family, house, in short, life came up, that kind of investment is a bygone era. But back then, I was all for excluding people that could not invest the time I could, and they made the same arguments that are being made today. In that time, we have eliminated spawn camping, kill stealing, we have added in instance based gaming, and raids have gone from a 10 hour ordeal to a 2 hour Tank&Spank.
Coming full Circle, in 20 years, I’ll say this, No one wants to be excluded from content, no one, and this is a progressive lesson that every game company is learning, you simply can’t afford to exclude people, no matter what the elite might want to say. Unless you plan to make a very niche game, and have a self imposed limitation on your demographic, you need to be all inclusive.
Truth is, we can hem and haw all we want, but here is the final reality, It is not a question on Anet’s part of they will eventually make raids inclusive, it is a question of how much they will hemorrhage players before they do.
So the real question becomes, how should they do it.
Personally, I love the idea of a Story Mode (1 – 5 players) – Raid Mode (10 players) Division, and I adore the Idea that players would need to chose between doing the Story or the Raid.
Just my two bits, from a old time raider.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@STIHL
Even those barriers prove to be a challenge to those who consider themselves “casual.” Finding a precurser off of chance or purchasing one for 1000g alone is unrealistic to most player who put in less than 10 hours a week, not to mention the additional 1000g worth of mats required and the WvW, Open world, Dungeon, and other requirements. My point is that legendary armor is going to take some work. There’s no way to even understand how it’s going to work in it’s current state since there is little information on it so it is really pointless to condemn raiding or argue over it. It’s all speculation.
My entire point, and something that has made GW2 a very attractive game, it’s very realistic for someone who can only play casually for 7 hours a week, to work towards a Legendary, with no Walls directly Preventing them attaining it.
Case in point, I think we can both agree that making 1 gold an hour is not a hard requirement. As such, a player who could play for 1 hour a day, in 3 years of their super easy casual mode of play, they could buy a Legendary right off the TP. Now, to that player, that Legendary, symbolizes, 3 years of work, saving, and not spending that money on other things. In fact that might be the only thing they really have of worth. But, nothing was there to stonewall them. There was no direct barrier put in that stopped them from making that slow, steady, journey in this game.
And it’s the fact that they knew that there is nothing stopping them from getting that “Ultimate Prize” , that kept that player in the game for 3 years and keeps them logging in, that feeling of being included, that knowing that “In 3 years I could get that, if I just made sure to work on it and focus”
The wonderful part of GW2, was that it did not matter if you are a Hare or a Tortoise, you both could both get your Trophy, it was just a matter of how long it would take each of you to get the finish line.
The new Direction of Legendary’s changes that, Suddenly, no the Tortoise can’t win in this game anymore, and that sends a ripple into the community, sure, they might not be vocal about on on the forums, but most people don’t leave games with a bang, they leave with a quiet good bye to their guild and move on. Want to get a real feel for this Forums touching base with the community, Just ask yourselves, how many people do we know in your guild or how many friends you have in game, that also post on the forums, truth is, I bet that number is very small, which should give you the idea that only a very minute percent of the players post on the forums. Couple that with the understanding that often times, the person with 1 hour of play time a day, is not going to be among them, because they are not going to spend their game time, posting. So, the few that do, it’s pretty easy to grasp that speak for masses, that will simply not have the time to come here to talk themselves, where a Hardcore gamer, does have the time to post on the forums, so they will be disproportionately represented on any forum.
I think Anet is making a very bad decision with their new direction, a horrible one to tell the truth. The Question now becomes, can they afford to keep the players that are elite enough to think that VG is easy, while running the risk of loosing all the players that realize that Raids are simply beyond their Skill/Time to be able to beat, and this vast amounts of content and collections suddenly become “Not even worth it to try”
That is for Anet to decide, not us, but, unless they can find a solution that will compromise what they have put in already, and make some changes, to somehow provide a door for everyone, it will become a decision they will have make.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Legendary armor is going to require a WHOLE lot more than simply raiding that most of these “casuals” will never obtain. It’s all speculation that is completely pointless to argue about.
This is not true, as most things previously involving a legendary, were not in fact hard, but more a test of perseverance and deftness of direction.
Look at the Original Legendary Weapons, nothing required to make them was actually hard, collect 250 of every resources, while expensive or time consuming, was not in fact hard, and then what, some dungeon mid level tokens, maybe run some low level fractals to complete a collection. All it very doable by someone who could only invest 1 hour a day, as long as they were willing to keep working at it, a bit at a time, and they would get it.
They did not need to be talented, or even skilled players, just persistent. Thus truly, anyone could get a legendary, might take one person 2 months, might take someone else 3 years, while others are still only half way there after playing since day one, but they all can get it, with just keeping at it.
The new direction of a lot of the HOT stuff changes all that, a lot of things are suddenly hidden behind being skilled, talented, or having a much larger time bracket to invest, and IMHO, that is not for the better.
I am all for giving Raiders some special raid loot, something that say “LOOK I’M RAIDER!” I love that idea about GW2, that they have done that kind of thing, giving special skins that were unique to a sub-section of the game, like Dungeon Armor/Weapons, Fractal Weapons, Gold Fractal Weapons, etc.
But notice… the Ascended Items are not exclusive to Fractals. You can get the Rings, Trinkets, and Amulets with Laurels and Guild Coms, so you never have to set foot in a fractal to get them. While you can get them from fractal runs, you don’t need to do a fractal to get the best gear.
Upgrading gear, like Infusing it, was pointless outside a fractal, so it made sense that get that Infusion, you needed to do a fractal. I mean really, Agony is a fractal thing.
And that inclusive, allowing players to simply slowly persistently and in some cases lacking any a skill or talent at being good at an MMO, but still not being left out, is exactly the trend they are going against with this new direction with the Legendary Armor system.
It’s easy to see why some who have been included for years, are suddenly not happy about this change of direction.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@STIHL Absolutely, then I do in fact agree with you although I still stand by my point that a “LFR” raid is not the way to go. Although, I do believe VG can be easily killed, it is not right to lock a “tier” of armor behind a specific game mode. Although I am able to reach all aspects of this game I do realize that others are under a time constraint and raiding is simply not possible.
Honestly, I have yet to unlock the precursor masteries so I have no place speculating how the legendary armor would work. I assumed it would be “gift of raid” or something for x amounts of shards.
Besides time, there is really no excuse to being unable to down Vale Guardian. It will become unbelievably easier once a proper LFG panel is implemented for raiding. Why? Because this will have the effect of giving leaders the ability to properly find pugs through an efficient and organized system. As a side-effect to this more and more players will become expertised when it comes to raiding. As a side-effect of this, the increase in success will continually go up as time goes on. Pretty soon it will be like second-nature to the average player.
I’ll be honest, it would be great if things happened this way, but in over 20 years of playing MMO’s, starting with EQ Day1 Live, I have never seen things go in that direction, they always go in the direction of being more exclusive, not inclusive.
It would be great if GW2 broke that mold, but again, its not something the company can control, it’s more a gamer specific thing.
However, playing upon your point, which is the idea that you don’t need to win to progress, and perhaps that would be the ideal solution, make it so that you don’t need to beat the VG to start the collection, perhaps, it auto-starts when you face him, or maybe an NPC spawns after you beat the 2nd guardian, that offers to open the collection for you, and then simply make it so that the pillars can charge the Living Core, when the VG fight starts, which means, as long as you can make it to the VG you can complete the collection parts needed, winning is not required.
That would resolve any issues I had with the whole process.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@STIHL
Well, the good news is that the raid “lore” is not specifically tied to the main lore. The other good news is that I’d be willing to place bets on the fact that the Legendaries will be gated behind shards meaning you do not have to actually clear content or have “skillz.” You simply need to put forward an effort to “try.”
Sadly, you would lose that Bet.
As it stands, You need to defeat the Vale Garden to even start the Legendary Armor Collection.
Which means, while it might be a noble idea to throw yourself and 9 other sacrifices at the raid for mats, simply “Trying” is not good enough.
Because, according to the Wiki, At some point, You need to win.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
It’s pretty simple. They want to be able to engage and continue the Living Story and quest after Legendary Armor.
It’s not the raid itself that is attractive, it’s the fact that “World Based” things are gated by it.
If they put in a Story Mode, that allowed someone to enjoy the Story, and get whatever collectible they needed for Legendary Armor, I think that would resolve this entire issue.
So… it’s the reward to you. Like I said, I do not think it is right to gate a specific part of a legendary past anything that is challenging such as Sab/Matthais. It’s all speculation though. Who knows, it may be entirely shard based which means you could essentially get the armor by wiping. You do get a significant amount of shards after so many wipes. After my first night of VG progression without any kills I think I remembered having 40-something shards.
As for story. Correct me if I’m wrong but raid lore has nothing to do with living story. Isn’t it simply a side-story that is hardly understandable without additional reading. (Unless you’re hardcore about that lore.)
I’m a bit confused about what you’re saying at the end there. Are you simply saying that the portion of precursor that is gated behind raids should have multiple ways to be gained? If that is so, then you and I are in a partial-agreement. If it’s gated simply behind shards then I do not think this is too much to ask from the general community. Why? Because you do not even have to clear content to get magnetite shards.
Think of it this way.
in a Dungeon there is a Story Mode (easy) and an Explorer Path (Loot Farming)
If you only wanted to do the Dungeon for the Story, because it loosely ties in with the Living Story, you can, and it’s not the difficult, and that is really how the raid should be.
A Loot Path for the Skilled and hardcore Loot monger, and a Story Path for those that really do like the lore of this game. I’ll be honest, unlike many other games, this game has a great storyboard. And I could fully understand someone wanting to experience that as a player, even if they did not have the “Skillz!”
I think we all can respect that, some people really do like the lore, and it’s unfortunate, but often times, those that really get involved in the lore and story of a game, are not hardcore grinders and twitch masters.
There should be a means to make that Lore Accessible to them for them to Experience it first hand, without needing to be carried though the raid, or buying their way.
Now in that, I am not asking for anything special from the raid, much in the same vein that Story Mode does not drop Dungeon Tokens, I am sure many that simply want to see the lore, are fine with not getting their Dungeon Token, or whatever the raid gives you.
Equally so, if there is a Collectible that needs to be obtained to allow for someone to progress on their “Legendary Journey” that too should be accessible in the Vast Majority of the players. And while maybe these items could be gotten even while wiping, Lets be honest, getting whupped, beaten, and in some cases blamed, is never fun for any one when they want to just enjoy a game.
Some people understand that they will never have the skillz to be boss enough to do the raid, and to be honest, they know this, and they don’t want to make a stir in what other people enjoy, they don’t want to ruin your fun by jumping your pug, and screwing things up. But, knowing ‘elite’ content is out of your reach is one thing, and can be grudgingly accepted, however, dealing with the fact that this bars them from a fun and enjoyable Legendary Journey that can give them something to work towards for the next years of their gaming time, as well as some really involved Lore, is a whole other matter and that is where the problem lies.
I think we can all respect that.
I am all for giving out something to those Boss enough to waltz the raid, give you some some epic skin, or nifty named item, maybe toss you a mini, whatever, you deserve it.
When Anet starts to bar enjoying Lore and Legendary’s.. not cool.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Just like, the Legendary Back item only Requires level 28 Fractal, not level 100.
Unbound is the precursor to the Legendary Backpiece, not the actual Legendary.
Fair point, but as it stands right now, we don’t know what 2 of the Gifts (Fractal and Infinity) Might Require,
So with what we do know, 28 it’s still the highest level fractal required, and to be honest, level 28 is not Elite or even what would be called “Hard” content, on top of that you can practice run the Fractal on level 6, (IE: easy mode) or level 19, (A little harder then Easy Mode) to get a feel for how it will play out and to work out any issues or insecurities before doing the level 28 fractal.
No such mechanic exists for the raid, either you go all in, or you don’t go.
Now, if suddenly “Gift of the Fractal” requires you to do every fractal from level 1 – 100, then you know what, I’d understand their mentality behind the raid.. I might also consider playing something else if that is the direction they plan to go in, because for as much as I love this game, that is simply not a direction I can afford in time and effort to join them down.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@Ohani, I’m too lazy to quote so take each paragraph as a reply to what you said.
Okay, you managed to type out three paragraphs without stating WHY you want to raid.
It’s pretty simple. They want to be able to engage and continue the Living Story and quest after Legendary Armor.
It’s not the raid itself that is attractive, it’s the fact that “World Based” things are gated by it.
If they put in a Story Mode, that allowed someone to enjoy the Story, and get whatever collectible they needed for Legendary Armor, I think that would resolve this entire issue.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Dungeons are still a basic (if optional) set of anchor points in the main storyline. I just finished the last story dungeon today, and I didn’t do it for money. The mastery point entered into my thoughts, but that wasn’t the main reason, either. I’m just a completionist. I like doing all the possibilities, and dungeons are part of that.
I did think that it might be good to do them NOW, rather than later, in case ANet removes them entirely. But, I don’t think they will. They provide the background for Destiny’s Edge getting back together to help the party take down Zhaitan. Without the dungeons, there’s no way to understand why they just seem to be nicer to each other later in the storyline.
So, I don’t think they CAN eliminate them entirely. Plus, it was fun.
Now, I don’t really understand why they change when you go explorable. I would like to understand the lore reason for that.
I agree with you that Story Mode Dungeons are an integrated aspect of the Personal Story, in fact, I mentioned this directly in my OP, that the story mode should remain intact, for both flavor and fun. Perhaps have it drop some tokens as well just for the sake of it.
The explorer paths are, what can go away, or the only paths that would be removed. The explorer paths were “What happens after the Story mode is Done” in essence, for example, using Honor of the Waves, the Explorer paths are what happens after Eir is done in Honor the Waves, now the Kodan go to take back their Sanctuary.
They don’t add to the world story, those explorer paths are self contained within the Dungeon itself.
As I see it, if Anet has opted to discontinue dungeons, which they have in the sense that they do not have a Dungeon team anymore, they should do away with the Explorer paths, so that players are not stuck in limbo wondering what gives.
If they made the executive decision to cut them, they should, for the sake of the game and the players, at least, close them to some extent, so that no one is wondering what is going on, or why they don’t receive any love.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
its kinda funny. when the game rolled out and legendarys got discovered, after a while when more and more gamers got one, everyone had the same thing in tough.
there is nothing legendary behind legendarys. you can just simply buy them off the tp. you have nothing to do for them if you don’t want to. that was like everyone thought off them and most people still do.
Not true at all. regardless if you can buy a Legendray off the TP, it’s still a very sizeable investment to get it, aroudn 1000 gold, or you can craft one yourself, which is also it’s own journey.
The main thing here, is that Until Raids, Anet gave players a means to get the major items by incremental investment, be that saving up one gold at a time, or saving up those Vicious fangs.
Just like, the Legendary Back item only Requires level 28 Fractal, not level 100. It’s designed that way, to make getting the item while a bit of a journey, accessible to the vast majority of the population that are willing to put casual investment to gain incremental advances towards a reward.
Now, if the Legendary back Item required you to do Level 100 Fractals, you would have a solid point, but it does not, so you don’t have a point.
In this venture, the Raid is fine, much like Fractal Level 100 is fine. As long as story advancement and renowned content is not hidden behind it.
That way, you can enjoy your fun raid, maybe they can toss you the equivalent to a Golden Fractal Weapon, for your raid efforts.
But we both can get our legendary armors and enjoy our stories.
That is the way the game has been from when I started playing, and truth be told, that is a great way for the game to continue going.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
The problem is that Anet took an inclusive stance with every other element of the game. They didn’t care what the other AAA MMOs were doing – they cared about all of their players.
With raids, all they have done is copy/paste the same old tired model used by other MMOs. Anet is better than this and should have tapped into that same spirit of innovation and anti-status quo to make raids unique to the GW2 model. While the fight mechanics are interesting, the implementation of raids in GW2 is a disappointment and (YES) enough to say that ANET has lost its focus. That may seem dramatic and alarmist, but the fact is that many of the players who enjoyed the game in the months following the launch are now shaking their heads wondering what the hell is going on with this game.
I have to agree with you. The more I look at this. It’s not the raid itself that is the problem, anymore then fractal level 100 is a issue with the game. Yes there many people that can’t do Fractal 100, just as there are many people that can’t do the raid.
However, no one has to do Fractal Level 100 to get anything they want out of the game. You want the Legendary back Item, highest level you need to do is 28, with requires 22 Agony, which can be covered very easy by trinkets and versatile infusions.
So, requiring this raid to enjoy the story and make legendary armor, was a bit of a shock, that Anet would be that exclusive. Where in the past, anything could be obtained by persistence and perseverance.
Legendary Weapons are still legendary, in the sense they still symbolize either a thousand gold straight up, or all the parts and pieces needed to make them. And both of those take a serious investment in the game.
So in that regard, while maybe raids are what some players need to scratch and itch they have, locking items and story progression behind it, was the actual bad idea.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
No one is playing dungeons right now because the rewards were changed. =( Dungeons were “nerfed” and now give so little coin that being in a dungeon isn’t worth it. Dungeons before could get you at least a gold and now it isn’t worth it to almost anyone for the time you put into it/effort. IF anet brings back the previous rewards we used to get from dungeons, then everyone will start playing this part of the game again and it will prevent people from leaving the game or staying upset about this part of the game. Please help us out anet please.
To anyone that told me that they should Keep Dungeons Open, this, this is why you can’t do that. If Anet made the decision to close down the dungeon team, cut it’s funding, and let it die off, they should have actually closed the Explorer paths, as I suggested here:
By leaving them open and able to be continually played, these kinds of posts will happen, because some people like Dungeons, but if Anet has made a clear decision to kill them, they should close them down fully, so that players are not stuck in this kind of limbo, wondering what gives and why the hate by Anet for the people that enjoy Dungeons.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Serious question. I just can’t seem to wrap my head around it. How is it that a company completely abandons such a huge chunk of it’s PvE content?
I’ve never seen another MMO do this before. Instead of reworking/fixing dungeons, they nerf it and just leave it broken, forcing players to do other things like fractals and raids.
Has Anet given a reason why they forever abandoned dungeons, or will they ever go back and fix them?
This type of “unknown”, the idea of leaving players hanging, asking questions, and not getting solid direct answers is why I made this post Bury your Dead
In the end, if Anet (For whatever reasons) pulled the plug on Dungeons, they should make this evidently clear to the public that they are a dead content.
Simply Nerfing the rewards to make them unappealing hoping that players will wander off and do other things, is a horrible way to handle cutting the funding on Dungeons in my Humble Opinion of things.
If they have opted to Abandon Dungeons, they should do the right thing, make an event, perhaps a Living World type event, that will go on for about a week, where each Explorer path of the dungeons, gets closed down, their respective NPC’s that lead the paths, return “home” either in victory or defeat.
And this players can be a part of the day that they closed the Explorer paths, as opposed to leaving the public wondering what gives with the Dungeons.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I believe the biggest sticking point is L. Armor, not the raids themselves. It’s unfortunate that exclusive access to better gear is part of the baggage that comes along with raids, but there it is. I blame D&D.
Do you mean D&D or DDO?
I meant the PNP game. D&D had, “Kill things and take their stuff” long before MMO’s became a thing.
yes now that you mention it, D&D did not even have a crafting system, it was purely “Kill Mob, Get Better Loot” mechanic in place.
I will say, I kinda like how GW2 breaks from that, in the sense that it has collections and ingredients as opposed to a straight up loot drop, that many other games hinge upon.
GW2 breaks from the “I got +5 Armor” and moves in the direction of “gather a Heart of a of an Ice Elemental, and the Blood of a Golem, and the Teeth of a Worm, and you will be able to craft this mighty item”
I agree that it was not the best form to require the Raid for Legendary Armor, but, that is how it is with most games, they drop some shiny to get players to do the new content.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I believe the biggest sticking point is L. Armor, not the raids themselves. It’s unfortunate that exclusive access to better gear is part of the baggage that comes along with raids, but there it is. I blame D&D.
Do you mean D&D or DDO?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
They should make depend it on the WvW rank and that you can buy it with the Skillsystem, like the Helper Tag.
Great Foundation Idea. Have it so that the Price Drops the higher your WvW Rank.
For example:
Bronze (and below) – 300 Gold
Silver – 250 Gold
Gold – 200 Gold
Platinum – 150 gold.
Mithril – 100 Gold
Diamond – 50 Gold
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty