Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

This was before Raids were in the game, so i’m not sure how it is relevant.

I was thinking the same thing. Seems like they are just grasping at straws now.

TexZero.7910:

Did you not understand that you demanded proof, i’ve given it to you…my work here is done. Your choice to watch it or not.

This is what I demanded:

STIHL.2489:

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

If this video provides that, tell me where, otherwise you have added nothing to this discussion or to your stand.

TexZero.7910:

you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.

Did you not understand me when I said I don’t have the bandwidth to stream a 30 min video?

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

I don’t have unlimited Bandwith, so I am not going to stream a 30 min video, you just tell where they say that raids contribute to directly to player retention, and I’ll watch just that segment, if they say it, you win.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm not sustainable but a lot of my friends and I are still here and so are many more and you can’t say raiders don’t have turn over new players wanton to raid come in all the time and leave the same as casuals so there goes that issue.

and the gearing aspect is a non issue since players can hear up in the required gear for any hard content minus high level fractals by logging in and Buying/crafting exotics from multiple game modes. With other MMOs like WoW yes gearing was an issue that doesn’t exist in this game as been proven with “hard” content ( raid clears in full exotics/ and by 5 man groups.) you don’t need the best in slot gear to compete in raids, and if you try to use the casuals aren’t as skillful as raiders would be another fallacy, since casuals is a title for a style of player not the skill of the player, if you try to rebuttal the gear argument for raids.

I always love these kinds of posts where people start off with talking about how the game needs hard, challenging content for their skilled elite vets, and then do a full reversal to try and say that the content is not really hard or challenging.

Sarrs.4831:

Hardcore content and hardcore players do a lot to help the game during these drought periods.

Explain in Excruciating detail.. how.

Sarrs.4831:

Who do you think recommends the game to their friends?

New players, infatuated with the game. Most “vets” already recommended the game to everyone they think would enjoy it, long before they became vets.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Hard, instanced content players were always courted by ANet, going back before launch. Over time, that demographic shrank because they got very little new (one path revamp, one substitute path, a large infusion with FotM over 3 years ago, very little added to FotM since). Explorable dungeons have been abandoned, and raids were substituted. How would putting in new content for a demographic not increase that demographic? The MMO business is a numbers game, whether it reels in cash via a sub, or via a store that x% of the total player-base buys from. Bigger numbers is likely to yield bigger dollars.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

Perhaps that’s why GW2 raids are tuned to be doable in exotics. While there may be an Ascended barrier to entry into PuG raids, that’s a player thing. There’s no big lead-in before you can raid in GW2, other than having to buy HoT.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

If raids aren’t helping to sustain multiple MMO’s, why do those games have them? “Helping a game survive” does not have to mean being the majority contributor, there just has to be a notable percentage of money brought in due to that content.

We have no idea how many who raid also buy gems. ANet may not even track that. They certainly can track a (possible) increase in player logins and a (possible) increase in gem sales. Something else we don’t know is how many of the (likely) 300-400K accounts that bought HoT did so and have raided (but we know ANet said the number was above their expectations). We also don’t know how many for whom raids were the primary selling point of HoT. We have to depend on ANet, and right now they say they’re happy with the participation with raids. If it wasn’t working for them as a business, I doubt they’ll continue to put resources into it.

I’ve seen a few posts where players said they were leaving. Some cite lack of new PvE content since HoT. Some hate HoT. A few have said it was because of raids. At that point, it becomes a numbers game, Were more players retained or lost due to raids? We’ll likely never know. We do know, though, that some posters tend to over-inflate the numbers who agree with them. So, I take the posts about people leaving in droves because of raids with a grain of salt. Thus, the equation:

(Number who utilize raids) – (number who left because of raids) = [some largish positive number]

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

Raids offer content that appeal to certain demographics, Gw2 having this option of gameplay entices those players to play, if fresh content is released for said demographic they can sustain gaining players while losing players, every game has players comin and going constantly, not providing this option of play would not net players joining to see if they enjoy the raid designs.

And your casual open world easy content didn’t keep players, a lot of players left due to no challenging content, so even that model is not sustainable, the player base has been on a huge decline well before HoT and raids were released.

Actually, casual content is sustainable, due to inherent turn over, you replace casual people, with more casual people. There is no point they need to get to, so they there is no process of turn over to maintain.

Which is the problem with “end game” content, see an End Game Player is not something that comes to a game, it is something that only Goes.

Natural Turn Over will result in replacing an end-game player with a new-starting-player.

Now you can look at any MMO in history, and unfortunately they all pretty much end up following a similar pattern. If they have any longevity at all, they will always start to make “Harder End Game Content” to placate their Veteran Players who have already consumed and beat all their other content.

But, again, due to Turn Over, which is a natural and healthy part of any MMO, they lose those “End Game Players”.

This is where the problems start, they are now forced to buffer those ranks and voids in their wonderful and perhaps expanse end game content with the new players that come in.

Designers become forced to find ways to rush these new players to the end of the game, so that the end game does not look barren.

This always results in new players being literally handed gear, ranks, and everything they need to be competitive at that content, often gifted with items that the existing veteran population had to work for.

They need to fill the ranks so that the end game does not die out, which will happen, simply because Veteran Players are not renewable, you can’t just get more veteran players, You only get new players that you hope to become veterans. But that takes time, and in the meantime, there will be an endless streamof how the “end game” is becoming barren and dead. And that may lead to more Turn-over for the end game players.

So every game is stuck with that problem.

So, what ends up happening? They try to rush their new players into the ‘end-game’ content to stall any feeling of “This game is dying”

but, in doing so, they have to gear those players, and this often builds resentment, and issues of new players, now popped up to max level and geared appropriately, lacking the skill and understanding of the game mechanics, to really buffer the ranks of the departed Veteran Players. Thus a whole new problem arises of vets vs noobs.

Guess who wins that Face Off? That’s right, the New Players, because like it or not, vets are not Sustainable, they have a turn over, and no replacement.

So, what happens, well the new players, really don’t have the skill, to do the content, and since they were up to that point, handed everything on a silver platter, they will often lack the inclination to actually now have to work for anything, opt to move on.

So the game will need to nerf the content, to be accessible to these rushed to cap new players.

Every Game that has had “End Game” Content, has followed this pattern, no one is immune, not even WoW.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

He still has his minions though – Subclassing confirmed? /s

More like us kill happy gamers will need something to charge the hammer with after we we went and killed all the cultist.

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

I asked for Proof. You will need to provide for me, from a direct source, or something concrete. Notice this Disclaimer.

So if a dev directly told you, ‘raids are contributing to player retention’ then there we go?

If they came to this topic and put their name and company seal on that statement, or another reputable source, and directly said that Raids were a direct contributing factor to player retention. Oh Absolutely.

In fact, I’d walk away feeling great about them and their future.

Edit Added:

Also, let me know when you have done Tempest Spine, at level, on elite. That’s when I will know you truly experienced DDO, and you will be able to fully understand how effective and game changing difficulty settings can be, even for raids.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

So with the teaser out, they’ve apparently put at least some focus on reworking/changing things in Cliffside – among them it seems to be that Archdiviner can now use Embrace the Darkness and probably other Mallyx/Rev-Hammer skills? (Maybe I’m just kittened and mixed that up during the video since the clips are really short but meh) What do you guys think about that and also, what else do you think they’ll change?

Looks like they Changed the Archdiviner from a Necro with a Hammer, to a Reverent.

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

Can you prove this?

Rising Dusk.2408:

• Raids are very active and are contributing to player retention.

I asked for Proof. You will need to provide for me, from a direct source, or something concrete. Notice this Disclaimer.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Note: I do not speak for ArenaNet, but I do speak with them, sometimes in-game. I am not bound by an NDA, but I also don’t want to throw any devs under the bus if they talk to me. Suffice it to say that as far as I understand, ANet considers raids a resounding success both in their impact on player retention and in keeping raiders raiding, and at this point they expect the next expansion will have a raid.

There is no actual proof here, only speculation.

Come back when you have proof, and when you have slain Redfang on elite.

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

… stuff …

… more stuff …

My first online game was Guild Wars. So I know all about expectations. As a result of my past experience. I expected easy-to-achieve max stats with no increases, ever. So did a bunch of other people. In GW2 they put in Ascended, which is a compromise between gear treadmills and what GW offered. I was kittened off. So were a bunch of others. I still don’t craft, because I find it to be a massive pain in the kitten.

Why did they do this? Perhaps because they believed that appealing to more groups of player expectations would lead them to greater sustainability and/or profit. ANet is a business. I didn’t like it, that’s life.

I heard it was because people wanted better stats for their Legendary Weapons then just exotic which they were at one time, so Anet made Ascended weapons, giving Legendary weapons these augmented Stats, but also at the same time made items with equal stats available to anyone for far less effort then grinding out a legendary.

But random guessing aside.

You already admitted that they “kittened you off” the long and short term effect of that are variable, but I do know that there is no recovery from that, they can never remove the fact that they kittened you off, so, the damage is done, now it’s just a question of how many times or how much they can “kitten you off” before they totally alienate you.

I am sure many, the Raid and Legendary Armor were the final straw, just the final “kittened them off” before they opted to walk away and find something else to do.

Now it’s just a question of what it will take before you join them.

Anet also said:

But what if your business model isn’t one based on a subscription, and your content-design motivations aren’t driven by creating mechanics to keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?
If we chose fun as our main metric for tracking success, can we flip the core paradigm and make design decisions based on what we’d like to play as game players? Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content to draw out the experience? Can we make something so much fun you might want to play it multiple times because it’s fun, rather than making you do it because the game says you have to?

So do raid fall into this “Fun Category” well, it’s obvious that for some players, the answer is a resounding NO

So I Am going to repeat myself:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Raids did nothing for GW2 other than give a lot of people a reason to continue to play. That’s good for the longevity of the game.

Not at all, Especially when you factor in that any long standing player (Anyone that has been playing GW2 for a year or more) left a game with raids, to play a game without them. Thus is raids did not help the other game retain people, they will not Help GW2 retain people. Sorry, but that’s just the reality of games and every "raider " on this topic is proof of that fact. So the only thing Raid have added to the game is putting in a Skill Gate to Content, like Legendary Armor.

Now I left the other topic, because I don’t care if they put in an Easy Mode, in fact I made it clear that I think they needed to put in a Hard Gear check like Fractals have, just to kick it up a notch. No one liked that idea. How ironic, they are in favor of content needing Ascended, but are not in favor of content needing ascended. If that makes any sense to anyone. So I don’t care about the raid, I don’t care about the legendary armor either. Number of Legendary’s I have is 0, and I care zero about that fact.

But I do care about this game, because I enjoy playing it. So I want to see it thrive. So I can get back to my SAB solo runs, and doing my daily fractal runs, and hope that they add a few new maps along the way, or make it more dynamic and fun as opposed to the slog of HP that it is now in the higher tiers. But I degrees.

Getting back to Are Raids a Good Idea, One of things I learned is, alienating an entire demographic of players is not a smart move, and that is irrespective of the game in question. Now you may say “But they can play something else”, and while that my be true, it does not change the fact they can’t play the new shiny.

Few things really are as bad for a game, as a content update, that players either simply don’t enjoy, or that while they may have done all there is to do in the older content, so they have been looking forward to this update, they discover that they don’t have the skills/time/connections to do it.

Even the LS that is in HoT, which often the LS caters to the casual group previously, in HoT, it requires a sizable grind to experience.

Arguably, we could say that Raids, in and of their own, could be benign, but coupled with a update like HoT which seems directed at the hard-core players, with their heavy mob density, and near-to jumping puzzle style zone layouts, Raids could be the final nail that sets the pace for the game away from the Casual, and shall we say, the “Sign on the Wall” that says “get out”

So.

What will happen, I don’t know. Maybe Anet can turn things around, maybe they have a content update that will make the casual demographic feel more included, I don’t know.

But as it stands right now, it really looks like Anet is kicking them to the curb, and that final Straw, being Locking Legendary Armor behind the Raid, could set the stage for players realizing and accepting that this “New Direction” does not include them.

What happens when that happens?

Well, lets go back to the fact that a bunch of people left a game with raids, to play a game without them…..

If your only objection is fuss about AR, then you missed the whole point of post.

Miellyn.6847:

STIHL.2489:

Miellyn.6847:

It also goes against the initial statement from arenanet, that there won’t be any entrance limitation

I don’t recall Anet saying this. And if they did, the fact that we have AR should have burst whatever bubble you had about it’s validity.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/designing-challenging-content/

With the purchase of Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns, once you’ve found a group of level 80 players ready to go, entering the first raid wing is as simple as walking up to the instance entry and zoning in. That’s it. No attunements and no repetitive gear grinds are going to stand in your way. The true challenge for raids in Guild Wars 2 should be in defeating the encounters, not getting inside.

And AR doesn’t restrict you from seeing fractals, it only restricts you from seeing higher levels of fractals. You can see every fractal without a single point AR.

They also said:

GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

And

We founded this company because we wanted to shake up a risk-averse industry, and show that game companies don’t have to just keep making the same games over and over again to be successful. We believe that gamers want to try new things, new experiences, and that they’ll reward the companies who can bring them something new.

and yet.. now we have Raids. Something everyone, everywhere has, with the same idea of needing to grind out Elite skills and prep to have fun.

Ho Hum.

Miellyn.6847:

It also goes against the initial statement from arenanet, that there won’t be any entrance limitation

I don’t recall Anet saying this. And if they did, the fact that we have AR should have burst whatever bubble you had about it’s validity.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Raids did nothing for GW2 other than give a lot of people a reason to continue to play. That’s good for the longevity of the game.

Not at all, Especially when you factor in that any long standing player (Anyone that has been playing GW2 for a year or more) left a game with raids, to play a game without them. Thus is raids did not help the other game retain people, they will not Help GW2 retain people. Sorry, but that’s just the reality of games and every "raider " on this topic is proof of that fact. So the only thing Raid have added to the game is putting in a Skill Gate to Content, like Legendary Armor.

Now I left the other topic, because I don’t care if they put in an Easy Mode, in fact I made it clear that I think they needed to put in a Hard Gear check like Fractals have, just to kick it up a notch. No one liked that idea. How ironic, they are in favor of content needing Ascended, but are not in favor of content needing ascended. If that makes any sense to anyone. So I don’t care about the raid, I don’t care about the legendary armor either. Number of Legendary’s I have is 0, and I care zero about that fact.

But I do care about this game, because I enjoy playing it. So I want to see it thrive. So I can get back to my SAB solo runs, and doing my daily fractal runs, and hope that they add a few new maps along the way, or make it more dynamic and fun as opposed to the slog of HP that it is now in the higher tiers. But I degrees.

Getting back to Are Raids a Good Idea, One of things I learned is, alienating an entire demographic of players is not a smart move, and that is irrespective of the game in question. Now you may say “But they can play something else”, and while that my be true, it does not change the fact they can’t play the new shiny.

Few things really are as bad for a game, as a content update, that players either simply don’t enjoy, or that while they may have done all there is to do in the older content, so they have been looking forward to this update, they discover that they don’t have the skills/time/connections to do it.

Even the LS that is in HoT, which often the LS caters to the casual group previously, in HoT, it requires a sizable grind to experience.

Arguably, we could say that Raids, in and of their own, could be benign, but coupled with a update like HoT which seems directed at the hard-core players, with their heavy mob density, and near-to jumping puzzle style zone layouts, Raids could be the final nail that sets the pace for the game away from the Casual, and shall we say, the “Sign on the Wall” that says “get out”

So.

What will happen, I don’t know. Maybe Anet can turn things around, maybe they have a content update that will make the casual demographic feel more included, I don’t know.

But as it stands right now, it really looks like Anet is kicking them to the curb, and that final Straw, being Locking Legendary Armor behind the Raid, could set the stage for players realizing and accepting that this “New Direction” does not include them.

What happens when that happens?

Well, lets go back to the fact that a bunch of people left a game with raids, to play a game without them…..

IndigoSundown.5419:

People who prefer harder instanced content have waited a lot longer for not as much.

Excuse me, but to say you wait for raids would be a misnomer, as you were never promised them, in fact the decision to put them in was a very recent one, so you could not in any way have be waiting for them. You would have slacked your thirst for harder instance content on fractals and higher tier dungeons, Arah, HotW, Atherpath, TA, not to mention the increased difficulty of Shatter, Teq, and the added Triple Trouble World Boss, Etc. So, you have not been waiting at all for hard content.

Thaddeus.4891:

DGraves.3720:

Content Gate. You don’t do Raids? No Legendary Armor.

You don’t do SAB? No Super weapons skin.

You don’t do Fractal?. No Ad Infinitum, or fractal weapons.

You don’t do PvP?. No glorious armor, no Ascension.

You don’t do dungeon, WvW or Open World? No Legendary weapons.

You don’t do HoT maps? No new Legendary weapons.

What are the difference between all of this? If there isn’t then should to do something about everything that is exclusive to one content? Is two content enough? Or is it different because it’s raid? And if so, why?

I would like to interject something here.

• You don’t do SAB? No Super weapons skin.

You can Solo SAB.

• You don’t do Fractal?. No Ad Infinitum, or fractal weapons.

You can Solo Some Fractals, duo, others, but your threshold of players is very low

• You don’t do PvP?. No glorious armor, no Ascension.

You can Solo your way to this.

• You don’t do dungeon, WvW or Open World? No Legendary weapons.

You can Solo, Open World, and Solo, Duo, Small Group, Dungeons, or Solo your way though PvP Tracks for dungeon Tokens.

• You don’t do HoT maps? No new Legendary weapons.

You can solo your way though HoT maps.

However… you NEED a viable group of people to do a Raid. You simply do not have any other choice then to have the right mix of the right people, to get this content done. You cannot solo, duo, or ‘small group’ your way though this, at all, on any level.

That would be the distinction.

Crinn.7864:

GW2 can do trinity for raids without infringing on your ability to run whatever in the rest of the game. But not having proper trinity in raids leads to the devs having their hands tied when it comes to interesting mechanics.

When did “Tank&Spank” become an “Interesting Mechanic” ?

Rednik.3809:

]its not about believing or not. As I said, its all about pure facts. We getting raid content and we not getting other content. We getting information about Anet happy with locking exclusive types of items behind raids and NO word about adding anything else for anyone else.
It’s literally “Eat raid or gtfo. What, you don’t like raids or like something else? Too bad, because you not getting anything else. Oh, and we plan to add more raid content, hope you like raids.”

This alone could make Raids a bad thing currently, with too much focus and emphases on them, all kinds of special and unique loot linked to them, with nothing to curtail the blow to the casual crowd and toss them some tokens to keep them happy as well.

katz.8376:

if yer getting chased clean across the map, yer doin it right.

I was gonna say, if you are living long enough to have them chase you across the map, yer doing something very right!

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

So moving on.

Have you played DDO yet?

Now now, we can’t rush these things, you have to let me savor it.

Well let me know if the Krothos starter gear has improved, last time I started a new character, we got Rusty Weapons. Wondering is they are handing out ‘uber max kill everything’ weapons these days.

Dynamic Events!

I love how just random events start up around you, and there always seems like something is going on, something to do, and then.. BAM! A dragon herald or a massive fire elemental forms. Always loves that about this game. Even after I started to farm the World Events, I still just love the Dynamic Events that go on around as I move about!

Just an small endearing part of the game I have loved.

Well this is just my feelings on the matter.

I personally love the several guild system, and the ability to see the chat of each of them at the same time.

It allows me to have a PvP Guild, that I tag up for, and run with doing PvP.
I can have a WvW specific Guild, that when I am doing WvW I tag up, and run with them.
I can have a PvE guild, for when I do general PvE stuff.
I can be a part of a raid specific guild, just for doing raids.
I can have a small social guild for my friends, where we just chat.

In the end, it allows me to be a part of guilds that have specific goals and purposes, that align with what I plan to do.

Never was a fan of a single guild trying to be my only social circle.

Also, if the situation arises, I can go raid with my WvW guild mates if I wanna, or do WvW with buds in my Pvp guild, if I see them do an all call (and we are on the same server)

It allows me to be a part of things bigger then myself, or a single guild.

randomguy.1283:

I’m very saddened by how toxic the gw2 community has come, or maybe its just that the salt seems to move only to the forums. Ironically the toxicity is coming from the people who complain about “elitists” more than its from elitists. I really wish people could just get along but a lot of people here seem to have nothing better to do but whine and be entitle to rewards that they don’t want to actually earn. You are devaluing the experience not just for raiders, but for those that buy them as well.

I find this funny coming from you.

I enjoy WvW, I go out there for the fun (because it sure ain’t the money moving me), I solo what I can if no one else is on or responding. I have heard that people even turn off their map chat in WvW!?. So I’ll often just give a cursory call out to see if anyone is about, and then go to doing what I can do.

If I see a tag, I’ll follow it like a good little lemming, Unless everyone following it is in the same guild, then I’ll back off, and because I don’t want to disrupt their vibe.

I build siege, man siege, and suicide run into Zergs to buy time for my team. It’s all fun for me.

But I don’t have a tag, I have been struggling about the idea of getting one, and too often, I’ll call out if anyone is around, and not get an echo back, even as I see camps flip, and towers change.

Somehow, everyone moved internally, and it feels like the era of the Pugmanders has come to an end.

I could be wrong, but I often play on the Borderlands, not EB, so it could be just a current map issue and I am not imagining things, I really am alone.

Astralporing.1957:

No. It just means that some people have way more wealth in game than others. At this moment price of buying full unlock for collection is so high that the group of people capable and willing to pay it is likely even more exclusive than the group of people that are raiding.

Good point, and for me, The key word here is “willing”

I believe that the bulk of the GW2 community is made up Players like myself, people who are here to have fun and play a game, not pay others to play it for me.

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

LOL, so far I have read several people mention paying for a Raid completion.

Never gonna happen.

I’ll quit this game long before I’ll pay some stranger to carry me through it.

That’s not a problem- and frankly it’s a pretty far tangent. That runs are bought and sold is only a good sign. That people are capable and willing to sell runs means that the content is tuned with wriggle room. That people are capable and willing to buy runs means that the rewards are accurately tuned.

We shall disagree.

All I see is the same people that made a huge deal against “easy mode” because it would devalue the achievement, are the same people willing to sell that achievement, it makes you look like panhandlers fighting for your market share as opposed players looking for challenge and prestige.

And I don’t think there is single thing you can say to change that image.

So moving on.

Have you played DDO yet?

I put up a similar idea already on another topic, just as opposed to Amulets, the idea would be for Specific WvW Armor.

STIHL.2489:

Something else I would like to see.

You all know how you have Amulets and Stuff in SPvP, so that your PvP Build can be, nothing like your PvE build, but when you go between WvW and PvE, you are stuck with the same armor and runes.

I would like to see it where you have a set or armor for WvW, that is uniquely different then what you have for PvE. Not sure how they would do this, maybe everyone has “Invader Armor” and they get to pick the first stat (like the generic drop down menu), but later you can change it the same way you can change Ascended, Mix the Armor with a Insigna, and Poof you have new stats. If you mix it with an Ascended Insigna, you can get Ascended Invader Armor.

Just wanted to put this idea out there, since I was just fumbling around with runes today, and it was like “This would be great for PvE and that would be Great for WvW.. and I am sooo not making 2 sets of armor”

LOL, so far I have read several people mention paying for a Raid completion.

Never gonna happen.

I’ll quit this game long before I’ll pay some stranger to carry me through it.

Rednik.3809:

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun”
Now I feel more and more GW2 turning into a definitely not that kind of game like it was promised to be, kind of game I paid for back in 2012. Retiring from raiding and leaving wow raids behind just to be caught by them again, in a game that promised to NOT be a wow-like game, what a surprise. Sadly, pretty unpleasant one.

This topic is about, if Raids were a good idea. I feel, like you, that they were not, because they go against the very nature of the game before HoT. Exactly like you expressed.

But here is something to ponder, some of the proponents of raids on this topic, are people that admitted they left WoW, because they could not keep up with the demands to Raid in that game.

FogLeg.9354:

STIHL.2489:

Not in the mood for gimmicks, and that is exactly what this would bring.

I would like to see a simple system in place where the higher rank you were, the more EXP, Wxp, PPK you were worth, and players got better loot for killing you.

Wouldnt that end up players “selling” their deaths? If Diamond Rank gives really good loot, there would be players setting up a spot where their any opponent can kill their chars for 15 minutes if they first pay 5g. Or it could be just your mate who creates new alt in opposing server and then you both farm stuff by killing high rank player and dividing the profits.

I wish we could trust players to play fair and really fight each other.

Great question.

Well a few things to consider. To do this, would need to be a whole set up, IE: Someone would have to raise them, others would have to kill them. But that would not be a big deal.

But there is also the issue of value. Would you make more then 5 gold killing that player over and over again for 15 min?

I think the easiest way to stop that would be diminishing returns. Killing the same player over all over again, within a time frame, lets say, 1 hour, would reward less each time. This would also stop the urge to target players you know are weaker then you as well.

But, I am not really worried about that happening, I mean, think about it, you never see people setting up 5 min timers to flip Keeps back and forth in WVW, even on T8 where there is what, 10 people per team total? (That’s a joke)

I have heard, that this used to be the case before mega-server, where WvW affected PvE. I can honestly say, I would not want them mixed, I mean can you imagine how upset WvW players would be, if let say, The PvE players failed to kill to Shatter, and thus we take a negative for that?

I don’t feel mixing the two is a good idea. I would much rather see more WvW stuff being given to WvW players, to make WvW profitable and fun.

Sarrs.4831:

Also, can you link to any articles or somesuch which describe the gear overhaul for me?

Not to be rude, but, No. On a Positive note tho, the changes only affected veteran players, so, as a new player it will not affect you at all.

Jana.6831:

I guess I know more about that than anet.
Some of my friends left because the ABL was their “home”. Some left because they couldn’t stand the power creep introduced in June and with HoT anymore. Some left because the balance sucks, some left because there was nothing left to fight on the DBLs, some left because they couldn’t play this game like they used to and so on.

I had to think about this for a while, and to be honest, you have a really solid point. I mean Anet does not ask people why they stopped playing, so, someone who was very involved and active within the community, with a pretty large social circle, could in fact have better insight into why people are leaving and what it would take to retain them, then someone sitting in an office looking at metrics.

So, just wanted to let you know that after I really thought about it, I came to believe that there could be some solid truth to your claim.

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

I played games that had Tiered Difficulty Settings for all their Instance Based Dungeons, with 4 settings (Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite) per normal dungeon and 3 settings for their Raids (Normal, Hard, Elite) They had well over 200 Custom Dungeons, and Two Separate Tiers of Difficulty for their Dungeons (Heroic&Epic)

Each Difficulty Tier offered better base Rewards, like Exp, Coin, Favor and Harder Content had Better Chances to Drop better loot, both in Quantity and Quality.

What game was this again? I remember you said something about it earlier but I can’t recall the name, refresh my memory please?

Sure thing. It’s called Dungeons and Dragons Online and while it’s been a few years since I played it, it should still be mainly the same game, I hope, in either case, it was a very innovative game, and one of the first games to make the move from Subscription to Free to Play Model, it’s amazing success in the transition setting the stage for all the current Free 2 Play games out there today.

Enjoy!

Sarrs.4831:

Here’s something that I honestly, respectfully think will help you, with all good intentions:
Go and see what the systems you advocate result in.

I am completely serious, it’s impossible for you to have any clue what you are advocating unless you do that.

We agree, and I have done it. For quite a few years, thanks.

I played games that had Tiered Difficulty Settings for all their Instance Based Dungeons, with 4 settings (Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite) per normal dungeon and 3 settings for their Raids (Normal, Hard, Elite) They had well over 200 Custom Dungeons, and Two Separate Tiers of Difficulty for their Dungeons (Heroic&Epic)

Each Difficulty Tier offered better base Rewards, like Exp, Coin, Favor and Harder Content had Better Chances to Drop better loot, both in Quantity and Quality.

I left because I did not like their gear overhaul, It invalidated my previous years of work, but that did not change the fact that their tiered difficulty system worked perfectly for it’s intend purpose, to make the game accessible to anyone that wanted to play it.

As such, I really have no idea where any of your objections come from in regards to having various difficulty scales.

So my sincere advice to you, is follow your own suggestion, broaden your experience pool and go play a few of those other games, you will be amazed at what is out there and how well some of it works. Just because one game you used play maybe did it poorly, does not mean the idea or the method has not been used by others game makers with amazing success.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

My feelings are this.

Something like Diamond Rank should be a mark of Skill.

Whereas something like a Legendary Item should be a mark of persistence.

Just help me out here.

When it comes to Hot Join, are people really involved in those “Bunny to Dragon” Ranks?

Would the game intrinsically change for you if they made it so that you could only get exp towards those ranks if you played ranked. To be clear, You would still get all the Reward Track Exp, and all the rewards associated with it.

Not in the mood for gimmicks, and that is exactly what this would bring.

I would like to see a simple system in place where the higher rank you were, the more EXP, Wxp, PPK you were worth, and players got better loot for killing you.

I think that would spice things up nicely in WvW.

Swagger.1459:

Again, you are free to look up my suggestions if you wish for that.

nahh, at this point I am just going to assume that you don’t have anything worth repeating, or you would have repeated it.

Swagger.1459:

I’m not obligated to provide “suggestions”, nor is it required.

You’re right, You’re not required to think of solutions, or suggestions, but, here is the thing about life. If someone propose a solution to a problem, no matter how bad that solution may be, it is still Infinitely better then anything the person who does not propose a solution has to offer. That is why, when people see things get implemented, they wonder how this could happen. Well it happens, because no one puts out a better solution, and a bad solution is still a solution. To say “your solution is bad” you could right, but it’s still a solution.

Ok, well, everything in eotm is pvp related and in this thread you wanted them removed. All of your suggestions are unreasonable and do not improve pvp overall. Your suggestions would be similar to cutting out stuff from fractals in hopes more players will do raids. I’ll let you think about that.

Oh please, my suggestion is nothing so melodramatic. It is akin to removing gaining Exp towards progressing from Bunny to Dragon rank in sPvP by doing Hot Join, and requiring Ranked to make progress. Currently you gain More Exp towards your Ranks loosing in a Ranked Arena then winning in a Hot Join. I don’t see the Legions of Angry Mobs about this, and would anyone really be upset if you needed to do Ranked sPvP to gain Ranks in sPvP?

Outside of sPvP, the ranks are meaningless, and even inside sPvP they are just fluff.

Same with WvW ranks really. EotM is a pointless time passer, people go there for the loot and exp, regardless of what you may say about other methods, people are only going to EotM for the Rewards, fast, easy Exp and Loot, minimal stress or requirements to be even remotely outfitted, I level there in outfits so people can’t see that I have like no gear on. But EotM serves a purpose, it’s a wonderful and fun place where you can level an alt, get a ton of bags, and buckets of karma all at the same time along with 20+ other people who are also there for the low stress fun, which You can’t get in SW, or by doing Fractal 40.

Since it’s just a playground for leveling alts and pve loot farming with a quintessential wvw feel to it, which is what it was from it’s inception and what it remains to be today, wouldn’t it be better to just max rank everyone as opposed to even having Wxp awarded at all?

Swagger.1459:

The devs are not going to remove what you want them to remove

Sure they will. It’s the path of least resistance.

You are free to reread my posts for my input and look at my post history to find more suggestions to improve the game.

I’ve read your input, in this topic. Not a single suggestion, all you have said is EotM is fine just the way it is.

“all you have done is try to block other suggestion that try to make the game more rewarding for everyone involved.”

You’re the one suggesting removing pvp progress and pvp currency from a pvp zone… My suggestion is for equal rewards. Your suggestion is the opposite of making “the game more rewarding for everyone involved”.

Originally on the many other topics that address this same issue, I suggested that EotM only give Wxp and badges for PvP interaction.

But, even if I was to placate your need to leave EotM alone, WvW still needs something more to make it attractive.

Sird.4536:

STIHL.2489:

Sird.4536:

. Everything you listed for fotm are not needed either. Outside of some fotm you can dodge the AR attacks, you don’t need food or oil and if you do dodge the AR attacks you don’t need ascended gear. Plus in fotm you can also get rewards of up to 100g (btw you can’t salvage ascended items to get the based materials back so who cares how much they are worth).

While you may not need those things, I use them, and even with using food, oils, and potions, AR, Ascended Items, I still manage to turn a profit running Fractals.

Now, If you can’t turn a profit doing a Raid (or any content for that matter) then you need to revisit how good you really are at that content, and accept that perhaps that content is not really the right content for you, if you can’t turn a profit doing it.

I turn a profit because I am in a good guild, this isn’t about me. Though everyone is not in a good guild that can speed clear a raid and for those what do you say? ‘This content is not for you’. Well if you can’t get a guild or friends to get the legendary armour then we’ll ‘this content is not for you’.

I’ll just coincide that you would understand that situation better then I would, I mean after whatever MMO you used to play, I am sure had raids, and you gave that up to come play an ultra-casual game like GW2, where, a 3 hour a week investment can net you some pretty good progress and guilds only serve as a social hub, because honestly, you realized that the demands to do raids in that other MMO were simply beyond you.

Wish I could share in that sentiment, as the last MMO I quit playing was Black Gold Online, and honestly I stopped playing because I really hated their money grubbing payment model.

But, I will say we kinda agree, I mean, really, if players joined GW2 at any time prior to HoT, they stayed because of the friendly, casual, enjoyable content, where they did not need to be in the right guilds to gain access to the whole game, and I guess if the direction that GW2 is going in, is to make it so that players need to be in the right guilds, know the right people, Then I am sure many people will realize, you’re right, and that this is not the game for them anymore.

If you use Skill 1 as opposed to 4 (or other healing skills) you will die soon enough.

However, I could see a (5) Skill, as opposed to just “Defeat” maybe make it “Noble Sacrifice” where you can heal everyone around to full, but you die instantly for it (Druid), or you Trigger a Super Nova Upon Death (Tempest), or When you give up your Life to Rally Everyone Around you (Dragonhunter).

This could really be a great idea. I mean anyone trying to kill you should still get credit if you use this ability, but it would be cool if it did more then just “Ok you Win”

Also keeping it to Elite Spec would lessen the nub mistakes of people accidentally hitting it. If they get elite spec, they should know their character at least a little bit.

But in all in all, great base idea, something that could be picked up and ran with!

Swagger.1459:

I’m sorry, but the devs are not going to remove wxp or badges from eotm.

How do you know this? I would like to know what exact sources you are using to know what the Devs will and will not do?

That progression and reward system has been there since day 1.

As I learned, the entire Wxp is a relative new thing, like within the last 2 years, So, it’s also gone under a total revamp thanks to HoT, as such nothing involving Wxp has been there since Day 1.

Also, for the record, They removed the secondary Chest that you used to get in EotM, and that had been there from the start. They can remove anything they want from any game mode.

So yah, they could remove Badges and Wxp from EotM today if they wanted, and there is nothing stopping them.

I have been discussing this subject and provided my input.

While you have been discussing things, but you have not offered any solutions for the current conundrum. In fact, all you have done is try to block other suggestion that try to make the game more rewarding for everyone involved.

Maybe if they removed Wxp from WvW and gave WvW a Mastery System, since WvW has 4 maps, and a Jumping Puzzle, they could easily put enough mastery Points, and link many more to the Achievements. This way, everyone is WvW would simply be an Invader or Defender again.

Perhaps that would be the ideal solution and allow EotM to keep their Wxp Ranks.