Guild Wars 2

Sird.4536:

Ohoni.6057:

This also may have been their motivation, but of course it was a misguided one, because 1. Legendary Armor is too big a thing to use for this purpose, and 2. it takes too much accomplishment to earn them this way. Rewards used to incentivize players to run content should be designed to get them to try it, not to get them to spend tens of hours on that content. People make mistakes, and just because ANet made a mistake here does not mean they are incapable of correcting it. The worst thing they could do is just never own up to their error.

The reward to try this piece on content is Legendary armour. The same way that the Legendary SPvP back is incentive to try PvP and the Fractal Backpeice. What about people that don’t like PvP or FotM, should they be entitled to those rewards in unranked or farming level 1 FotM? It’s people like you that want easy mode for everything that will make achieving rare or ‘legendary’ rewards meaningless.

Many others have made it clear that they feel that gating things behind specific content is wrong. Not that they are entitled to the item, but that the very act of Content gating items like that is not good for the game as a whole, and that there should have been other ways to get the same items.

Now. Personally I love the smug sense of entitlement that people have thinking that they deserve a special something because they can do this Raid, like somehow they are special, and that is exact problem. You’re not Special. You don’t deserve legendary armor for doing a Raid, because truth is Anet could have given out yellow breathers as the reward for the Raid and give everyone all full sets of Legendary Armor for every toon they had, as Birthday gift if that stuck their fancy.

It’s their game

So please, in the future spare us the painful regurgitation of entitlement because you can do a raid, it’s been established, none of us, are entitled to anything.

The question is not, do you deserve it…. You don’t. You don’t deserve anything for playing a game, the fun is it’s own reward.

The Question is Was it a good idea to Link that Item to that Content

Given that there is a underlying sense of embitterment about the PvP Back item and Fractal item, from the pro-Raids group, it’s clear that no one likes the idea of gating Items behind content they don’t enjoy.

Astralporing.1957:

fishball.7204:

None of you are entitled to anything

Yes, you included.

This Won the Thread.

Torolan.5816:

Here you really lost me.
GW2 is a game. Not a exercise, not a job, not a sports club. A game. I said it when the fractal backpiece was introduced for Fractals only, I said it when the backpiece for PvP was announced, I said it for legendary armor:
Gating content behind game modes is plain and simple wrong and bad for the game. It breeds exactly the discussions we are having here right now.

I know that many people think that people are looking up with envy and want on your efforts, but I stand on the firm believe that nobody remembers the name of your toon after he has passed them in Lions arch with your Eternal title and your grinded Astralaria. So the number of people that maybe care for that is in your closest group, aka your raiding team and your guild, and a few people that write you PMs about how that looks on you.

Regarding the question who deserves content X more, I would be with you if this was one of the activities I mentioned above, aka work, sport, exercise. I believe that first and foremost effort and dedication by playing the game should be rewarded in a game, not skill or reflexes and effort for builds which is a non-game activity anyway in my mind. Skills and reflexes should net you more, but a less skilled person should not be forced to go out emptyhanded off anything.

tl:dr Gating is wrong, and nobody cares if you have the Eternal title or Astralaria.

I had to respond to this, it was so amazingly well said.

But it also hits very close to home. We know that Anet canceled production of the HoT legendary, which were content gated, and, it was not because they lacked the staff, as there were no major downsizing. They have the ability to do it, but have chosen not to. Much in the same way Legendary Armor is still on the first collection, the Fractal Back Item is dead ended right now.

Just can’t shake the feeling that maybe Anet realized that you’re right, that gating is wrong, but is not sure what their next move needs to be to correct their current set up.

Just a thought I had inspired by your great post!

joneirikb.7506:

+1 I love your sense of humor! Don’t think I could quite force myself to vote for that just to watch it, but it is tempting…

Thanks

To the people that say we could close all the other forms of WvW and just do EotM.

You know, we could. And it would be the Stuff of Legend.

Every WvW Fight Guild, and anyone and everyone who is just looking to kill, will suddenly arrive in EotM, ready to slaughter indiscriminately anyone not of their team, taking I would imagine heightened levels of glee to crush under their boot any Quasi-PvE player, Up-tick, or Anyone Looking to K-Train. The bodies would litter the fields like rivers across the map.

All the Bunker and Turtle players would Siege up the Fortifications to insane levels, the likes that people that only played EotM have never seen, nor could even fathom could exist.

8 Tiers of some some of the hardest hardcore core WvW players will suddenly move to EotM, filled with vitriol and embitterment, looking to make sure that every up-level, or quasi-pve player pays a dear price for their lost beloved ‘real’ WvW experience.

The hate and salt would be so thick we would be able to repair walls with it.

Oh I would vote for that change, just to see pure pandemonium that would cause.

When I first read this, I was thinking “You have to activate the glider, it does not auto-open” so I don’t understand the need to “turn it off”

But, you know, if that is what people want, then let them have it, just make sure to set the default to being on.

Someone suggested being able to un-equip the glider, I like that idea the best, because I would like to be able to see if I accidentally turned it off.

I don’t think people are upset that EotM exists, or that people like it, I think that it’s more the fact the people that could be helping their Server are instead off doing EotM. Again, returning to that whole “Server Pride” division between the two.

I would like and would pay for the following:

Key Ring: An account bound tab (like the wallet) that holds all my “keys” (IE: Bandit Keys, Calk Acid, Crowbars, Etc). I’d be willing to pay around 800 – 1000 Gems for this.

Blue Print Bank: A series of 5 Account Bound Inventory Slots that only Hold WvW Blue Prints. I’d pay around 500 Gems for this, but I think I could be suckered into paying up to 800.

Naix.8156:

Siege isn’t really a currency.

And most importantly the more pressure the dev’s can put on your bag slots in general can only help their gem store sales, so not much incentive to clean up the current wallet as a priority. For $5 US each for a bag slot expansion players can solve this issue with their wallets kek

Then sell the kitten wallet in the gem store then.

Absurdo.8309:

I’m not really sure where to start here.

I won’t pretend to be a logician. The first line of the Wikipedia article on ad hominem defines it as “a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.”

I think your post fairly fits this description. You call “elitists” greedy, toxic, and self serving. Even in your response, you continue this trend. I haven’t played many other MMOs. Do I fit your description?

I have not called anyone, anything, if that is the kind of player or person you self identity with that is on you, not me.

Now, onto the merits. I have no training in sales or customer support. But I have a feeling you are pulling these percentages out of thin air.

Surely not everything needs to cater to 50% of the population. Heck, Guild wars 2 is so diverse, it would be extraordinary if anything catered to that percentage of players. I doubt fractals, pvp, or wvw meets those percentages.

You see an MMO, for it to survive, needs to maintain an established player base, with minimal turnover. Ok so you might not grasp the idea of an established client, but this is someone that knows your product, likes it, and continues to keep a vested interest in it. Now, do you honestly think that when a company, like say, Apple, when they put out a new product, that they only expect half of the people who already like Apple Products, to like their next product?

Do you really think they would strive to reach such a small demographic of already loyal customers? Now sure, specialty products do come up, they target a specific demographic, but never at the cost of the larger client base, unless of course the smaller sampling can net greater profit, then like any good company, you follow the money.

But ideally, most companies try and satisfy as many of their established clients as possible as that is often the most dependable and reliable way to net the largest profit.

The best argument that I see is that anet would put disproportionate resources towards a game mode that a large chunk of players would not find fun.

They have already done this by making the raids in the first place.

The question is, will it become Anets, 707, or will it become their New Coke?

I don’t know the answer to that.

Personally, I don’t think Raids added anything to the game. I think somehow linking Legendary Armor to the raid was a bad move, and I believe it will generate feelings of resentment by players who really fell in love with the idea of how in mainland Tyira, anyone could work their way towards a legendary weapon without ever needing to deal with skill checks or elitist players.

I hope Anet knows what they are doing.

In that, it’s their game. I guess I have to trust their decisions.

With that, I’m done with this.

Absurdo.8309:

STIHL.2489:

Nokaru.7831:

They have so lost the argument that they are now just regurgitating the same old trash in hope that people forgot that it got shot to death 10 pages ago.

No one has won or lost this “argument” because it’s just two contrary opinions clashing over and over again. “I think this is a good idea!” vs. "No, I like how things are now! " The end. It’s interesting to me though to see how toxic people become the more they must interact with those that do not agree with everything they say.

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

Insulting the other side through ad hominem attacks does not really help your case.

It’s not an Ad Hominem, as that is against the person, and I have not said anything against an individual.

However, it’s also true. Look at any gaming forum, from Hello Kitty to Mortalis, from Aion to WoW, every elitist is the same, they all say about the same thing too, look at every game forum, it’s same responses from the Elitist crowed when there is any request to make content more accessible. That is because they all have the same underlying motive, to build up their own smug feelings of superiority by putting other people down. It is impossible for that kind of person not to be toxic, because their entire goal is to derive pleasure at the expense of others.

It’s unfortunate that people like that even exist, but they do, and really destroy a community. There is no need for that kind of mindset in any MMO, especially one like GW2, which (outside it’s PvP content) is about one step above Second Life, on Difficulty Scale. I love GW2, it’;s a fun MMO, but in comparison to games like Eve, Mortalis, and Ark, Bragging about being a top tier PvE player in GW2, is like saying you sit at the front of the short bus of MMO’s, if you get my drift.

Now, I have not called anyone an Elitist, but if the shoe fits, lace that sucker up and wear it.

I’ll repeat myself again here. There are two main arguments against easy mode raids. 1) It would be a waste of developer resources 2) Anet would unlikely be able to balance the rewards.

Oh this again.

Ok cracks knuckles

• It would be a Waste of Developer Resources.

This is hard one to counter without really questioning how naive this person is. Never mind the fact they have no idea what resources the company has at it’s disposal, or even what the actual metrics are, beyond that, it shows that have no idea what an ROI is, to begin with. So it the Lets go with that. To start off, any content that does not cater to at least around 60 – 70% of the games population is a potential waste of resources, in case you missed this, this game is a product, something the company needs to sell , if content is not at least reaching 50%+ of the game’s population, it’s a risk to take due to lost sales and lost customers. I mean we are talking Basic CS, here, if you can’t make at least half your clients happy, you’re doing it wrong. Making anything that caters to what could amount to 10%, at the expense of the other 90%, is a total and utter complete waste of time on every level, in fact, basic economics would make it painfully clear that going in that direction is not just a waste of time due to limited ROI due to demographic constraints, since it is done at the expense of your other clients, it runs the risk of being determent to your finical future goals. Unless your plan was to loose money. So walking in, we can see that Raids, were a waste of time to even make to start with, unless at least 50+ of the population will enjoy them. Which, if that was the case, it would not be “elite” content, now would it?

To devote resources to making this content available to 50%+ of the population, would be about the only move since their inception that made any sense at all, from any design perspective. Sorry to burst you bubble, but making content/product for the small minority, is simply not a profitable move, unless, it is done in such a way that it is not at the expense of your other clientele. That is just basic business logic.

But the main reason why this falls flat, is because if a company has the resources to waste on making content for the 10% of their population, they must have an abundance of resources they can use to make that same content available to the other 90%.

• Balancing rewards

Yah, I personally love this one, nothing screams grasping at straws then when people start to call the development staff incompetent. Best argument ever.

Nokaru.7831:

They have so lost the argument that they are now just regurgitating the same old trash in hope that people forgot that it got shot to death 10 pages ago.

No one has won or lost this “argument” because it’s just two contrary opinions clashing over and over again. “I think this is a good idea!” vs. "No, I like how things are now! " The end. It’s interesting to me though to see how toxic people become the more they must interact with those that do not agree with everything they say.

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

Linken.6345:

Can you show a Dev post about them developing legendary armors for any other modes then raids please.

Given that they have stopped Legendary Development, in general. There is currently no development for Legendary Armor, even IN the Raid.

Cerby.1069:

IS THAT OKAY?

Chill the kitten out man. And no, you really need to relax and be able to handle a few extra hits with the scythe, or maybe, just cut back on whatever amphetamines you are taking.

There is a bit of discussion about EotM not being “real” WvW, and for me, I would like say to say that in some cases they are both the same. It’s Open Team based PvP, It’s Point Capture, and it’s the same idea of Three Teams. Red, Green, Blue. I can play “real” I run around flipping points and capping objectives in both environments without a single clash with other players, equally so, I can get bombarded by endless blob wars in both environments So it’s not the Mechanics that are real;y a dividing issue.

However, I can see why EotM is not considered “Real” WvW, because there is no “World Loyalty” in EotM.

EotM is like this one big huge Pug of people that are there for loot, karma, and exp. They don’t care what server they are running with or against. Leave EotM to sell/buy/trade, come back and even if it is the same “match” you can end up on a different map, running with new people, under a new commander, and facing opponents you never saw before. There is no Unity or Loyalty in EotM

Unlike WvW, where the people you see out there Today, are the same people that were there Yesterday, and will be there Tomorrow, there is a sense of My World. I will defend My Borderlands. WvW is like being in this one huge Guild. We may not all get along, but we are all part of the same team.

I think that really is where the division is between the two.

Just wanted to put that out.

Sykper.6583:

Torolan.5816:

I am not really against an easy mode raid, I would like to see the story that is involved with the raids. Although I would rather like to see Anet just make legendary armor available over more ways than raiding so that I could just forget about raids like I did with aetherpath after I completed it once.

The blatant attempt of Anet to make raids valuable really bugs me more than people showing elitist behavior, the later one I can just avoid without being grumpy.
After the recent AMA, I have some hope that MO will direct the company away from raiding again after the first raid is complete.

I would rather have more raids and fractals. I have yet to see any ‘pro-raid’ individual say Legendary Armor should stay within Raids, we have encouraged other modes having a means to reach those same stats and convenience (personally don’t see what’s so convenient about it but whatever).

We simply ask for exclusive rewards for raids, that are not trivialized by an easier means of obtaining them much like many other instances of content doing so as well. That is it, that is all we ask for. Having those exclusive rewards earned in an ‘easier’ or ‘alternative’ means causes them to lose merit for a lot of raiders, much like how players who might do a lot of SAB would feel terrible if say the King Toad skins were made available through a SPvP reward track, or if the Mist Hero’s Skins from WvW were suddenly capable of being purchasable through Dungeon Tokens.

Keep exclusive rewards where they belong, yet have their ‘potential power and convenience’ made available globally.

Everyone has agreed that Raids should have their own special rewards, Unique titles & skins, assorted shinies and baubles, that would not be available in the easy mode.

Much in the same way, SAB works. There is an Normal Mode (which is pretty easy all things said and done) where anyone can get the Funky Skins, and there is a Hard Mode, and people can get their special colors and added titles and achievements to prove they did it.

Everyone can win with the SAB, they are just asking for something similar for the Raid.

Torolan.5816:

It would be more than ok for me if raiders got exclusive stuff in the form of titles, skins or other badges for their efforts. Anyone who is sitting through hours of wipes and tactics indeed deserves something for his efforts. But a whole upgrade(not a tier) of an armor is misplaced there.
The irony here is that raiders probably won´t see much use in legendary armor anyway for obvious reasons and many people who would like to have the armor do not care for rune swapping and would use them much more regularly.

Lets say Anet would use an NPC where you can see the story behind raids without doing them and release legendary armor with a different skin for WVW, PVP or other PvE activities. That I would be fine with.

Everyone so far has agreed with you, that Raids should have their own reward set. Their own special skins, maybe some titles and achievement, and assorted “Shinies” to show you did it. Everyone is in favor of this.

Some people just feel that there could be an easy mode for people that want to run the raid on a less stressful setting, and others feel that it’s kinda poor move to conjunction Legendary Anything to something like a raid.

To each their own. Why Can’;t everyone have fun? Why are there always those few people that need to deny others their enjoyment? I don’t know why people are like that, and they only hurt the community.

No one wants to take away Raids, no one wants to remove the difficulty there is now, everyone believes that the raid should have it’s own little special baubles and shinies. They just want something to be made more enjoyable and accessible, and that’s not a bad thing nor too much to ask.

I’d buy this.. but this is the wrong topic area to suggest this.

Try Here

Just saying.

Confused, so what’s the OP about, he wants us all to have to stay on the same server we picked arbitrarily at the start of our character creation till we leave the game or something?

Not getting the objection or what this guy wants.. someone want to fill me in?

RodOfDeath.5247:

STIHL.2489:

EotM is fine, if people enjoy that, allow them to enjoy it, I just think that it should not reward WvW Exp or Give Badges, unless from PvP drops.

Agreed, eotm is a farm nothing more and a way to level your toon to 80, at least in the past you could speed to 80.

Totally with you, and it’s really wonderful for the people that like, it’s decent loot, karma, and exp, it’s like this ultimate PvE playground for the WvW player, so I can fully understand why they enjoy it. I just don’t feel that it should reward WvW Exp or Badges, outside PvP interactions.

To be honest, not sure what you mean by “relationship” I mean, they make the game, I play the game. If I don’t like the game, I go play another game.

I made the mistake with the last game I played, staying with it long after it stopped being fun, and to be honest, all I did was make myself unhappy playing the game. I have no plans to make that same mistake with GW2.

I enjoy this game, I enjoy playing it, in the here and now, today, that is all that matters.

Shouldn’t that be enough for everyone? Log in, have some fun, log out.

Whatever will be.. will be..

I put this on another topic, figured it works here as well.

STIHL.2489:

4: Balance PPT/PPK. Or more Accurately put, dealing with Capping during gaps in Coverage, and being Outmanned.

This would require a massive overhaul in how PPT worked, but I think it would do wonders for the game.

4-A Borderland PPT. Each Team, on their own Borderland, would get 5 PPT for any Camp They Controlled, 10 for Towers, 20 for Keeps.

On an Enemy’s Borderland, they would get 1PPT per Camp for each Active Defender on that Borderland. , 2 for a Tower, and 3 for a Keep. (Note: You can only be a Defender on your OWN borderland) up to a max of 20 Defenders Counted (IE: Max Gain for a Camp would be 20 PPT, if there were 20 Active Defenders On the Borderland) this number would be Divided by the Number of Invaders on that Borderland that Controlled said Camp/Tower/Keep.

IE: (Point Value* Defenders (max 20)) * (Defenders / Controlling Invader)

Note, every Borderland would have by Default 1 Active Player counted at all times. So, no one could get Zero Points. IE: If no one was on the Borderland, it would sill count as if there was 1 Active Player from all Sides.

To explain that: If Red owned one of Greens Keeps, they would get 3PPT per Active Green Player on Greens Borderland, Divided by the Number of Active Red players on Greens Borderland.

IE: Red Owns Greens Keep, Green has Default 1 Active Player, on the Borderland (No one), but Red, has 4 Active Invaders on the map. 3*(1/4) is what they would get for the keep, put another way, 3*.25 = 0.75 PPT.

Using another Example.

Red owns a Camp on Greens BL. There are 10 Active Green Defenders, and 2 Active Red Invaders. That camp is worth 10 (1PPT per Defender) *(10/2) = 50. Now that camp is worth 50 PPT to the Red Team, but they are also 2 people defending against 10 Defenders, it stands to reason that camp is not going to last long.

One more analogy to understand the Math a Bit More.

Green Owns Red’s Camp. There are 5 Red Defenders, and 1 Green Invader
Blue Owns Red’s Keep. There are the same 5 Red Defenders, but there are 12 Blue Invaders.

Camp = 1 PPT / Per Defender, Total Base 5
Keep = 3PPT/Per Defender, Total Base 15

Green gets 5*(5/1) = 25. So that Camp is worth 25 PPT to the Green Team
Blue gets 15*(5/12) = 6.25. So that Tower is worth 6.25 PPT to the Blue Team.

That means that the Camp to Green is worth 4 times what the Keep is worth to Blue. This means the game changes from sheer capped points to playing a game of strategic capping.

This would eliminate the whole problem of winning through coverage gaps, or winning by sheer volume of players. Which is really the main problem with PPT, is how it can be exploited, and doing this would close that loophole in the PPT problem we have right now, especially with the low and mid population server, that simply don’t have the coverage.

4-B Eternal Battlegrounds.

The Battle grounds are divided up by 3 sections and Stone Mist castle. This creates a very special situation.

To do this, Each Team would have Declared “Home Lands” that would provide them a Flat PPT if they Control it, exactly like their own Borderland. This would include their 20 for their, Keep, 10 for their 4 Towers, and 5 for their 2 Camps.

If they took another Teams Homeland, it would function as if they entered their Borderland. IE: (Value) * (Defender/Controlling Invader).

IE: If Green took Blues Keep. They would get (Keep*Active) * (Defenders/Controlling Invader) in this, Red’s active players do not come into play.

So, the Same Keep could be worth a lot More to one team over another.

For Example, if there are 20 Red, 27 Blue, and 7 Green.

Blues Keep is Worth 81 PPT to Red but worth 231 PPT to Green.

The Keep is only worth so much, because of the 27 Active Blue Players on the map, giving the Keep a value of 3PPT* Active Blue, Max 20. So only 20 of the 27 Players are counted, but the Keep is still worth 60PPT Base.

In Contrast, Geens’s Points are not Worth as Much, since there are only 7 active players, their Keeps base is a Paltry 21 PPT.

And Since they are vastly outnumbered, Greens Keep is only worth 7.3 PPT to Red, and 5.4 PPT to Blue.

It works pretty much the same as if you tied to take a Borderland, just in a smaller scale, but we can see how smart play, over simply brute force and capping can win the day with this kind of system.

Moving on.

The Mack Daddy – Stone Mist!

Stonemist, would and should be a prize. As Such Stonemist would Net a flat 100 PPT * (Both Active Teams/Controller)

IE: If there were 20 Blue Players, 35 Red Players, 40 Green players, and Green owned Stonemist.

100 * ((20+35)/40) = 137 PPT.

Now Imagine, if Blue Flips it.

100 * ((35+40)/20) = 375 PPT.

This idea would remove the sting of Night Capping, or Coverage Gaps, as well as the whole issue of getting rolled by a larger servers. It would reward smart play vs what we have now.

Now, Notice I have said Active Players this needs to be a way to distinguish between active and just on the map. Which happens, IE: What about the people there for crafting or banking, or whatever.

Any player with the “invulnerable” buff you get for being in the “Safe Area” would NOT be counted as Active.

I believe that PPK should be 1PPK, unless the outmanned buff is up, and then it’s 0 PPK to kill an Outmanned Opponent, but they get 2PPK for killing someone with an Outmanned buff on.

Simple enough with that.

I gotta say, this was a rare gem of an opening post.

I mean opening up with telling the Development Staff that they can’t be Trusted with the Direction of the game, and I bet you believe that too, that you sincerely believe that the very people that crated this game to begin with can’t be trusted to continue the development of this game.

I hope they got as big a laugh out of that I did.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

Raids in fractals. People have been asking for easy-mode raids but I don’t think that’s a good thing. So instead of that add the Raid bosses in Fractal format (for 5 people) with all the usual fractal rewards.

Want Raid rewards? Play the Raid.
Want to experience the story of the Raid? Play it in fractal form

This could work to a point. I could see the Rewards for Completion being benign (IE: No legendary stuff) in the “Non-Agony” fractal levels, but once you get to the Fractal Level where you need Agony Resist, this would become “Raid Boss with a Gear-Check and Mist-Instability” It would be fitting that they should get in on the Legendary Action.

With that minor change, I think that would be a great solution.

No, because those encounters would be scaled down to 5 man and fractal difficulty, i.e. they’re considerably easier than the normal raid versions, besides the instability which may or may not be annoying.

As for fracs; Battle on the Breachmaker as has been said, maybe something related to the war between Balthasar and Menzies, or something to do with Luxon and Kurzick.

Less People =/ Less Challenge.

And there is no such thing as a Mist Instability that is not Annoying.

Not to put gas on a burn, but, if they really wanted us to have grind levels for every alt we make, they would not give us tomes of Knowledge. You can’t complain that it’s not fast enough, and then in the same post claim it’s too easy.

So let me get this right.. during a fight.. you shut off all communication with you, and you walked in, not really knowing what to do? Wow.. just.. Wow.

Sorry you feel that way.

I love the nodes, they are like a mini-reward for flipping the objective. And give me a reason to check on objectives we already hold.

Don’t fix what ain’t broke. If people want to run Mossman, let them.

However, a real solution would be.

Add more chests to Harder Fractals.

IE:
Mai Trin Drops a Large Loot Chest for Each Cannon Round.
Therma Nova Reactor Drops a Large Loot Chest for each Room Completed & Portals drops smaller loot chests.
Underground Facility drops a Large Loot Box for Opening the Door, Each Boss, and the Mini-Elemental’s can drop loot.

Etc.

That way people are rewarded for doing ‘harder’ not forced into doing it.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, the metrics provide a starting point, but they need to use communication and intuition to learn where to go from there. For example, is the solution to HoT that they should abandon it completely and do something else, or reconfigure what they have there to be more acceptable to the players? For example, with the Legendary paths, was the best solution to just abandon the existing ones as they are, or to change them to have lower material costs, so that more players would be willing to invest the time in completing them? I think they could get a lot of player time out of the latter, but they went with the former.

It would really help if they actually did communicate with the players more, bounce ideas off of us before they waste months of time implementing whatever they decide internally.

I agree, there are a lot of factors involved. Right now, we don’t know their real reasons, or even what they are in fact doing. For all we know, they could just be moving the new legendary collections to be more involved with next expansion.

Astralporing.1957:

You missed my point. I’m saying that Anet’s having metrics doesn’t preclude them from drawing wrong conclusions from them. They have been known to do just that many times already. In this case they might see that there are relatively low numbers of people creating new legendaries and think it’s because people do not really want them, while the real reason might be people not wanting to grind HoT for mastery points, mastery experience and map currencies (as well as auric dust and leyline sparks).

I know your point exactly, and I am not disagreeing with you.

Astralporing.1957:

STIHL.2489:

Ohoni.6057:

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

Well, they might not think that anymore, but they clearly believed it at one time or they wouldn’t have bothered with the new Legendary Collections in the first place. I think they underestimated the backlash on the material costs.

Personally, since it’s an easy thing to track, I would have guessed that the sudden move to redirect resources was due to the number of people bothering to acquire and competing the Heart of Thorns collections was far below their projected metrics.

And i’m pretty sure they haven’t even considered the possibility that it might have something to do with people not liking HoT in general.

I agree, that a lack of overall interest in HoT overall would also be a good motive to redirect development. But again, I don’t have the metrics. I don’t know what they are thinking.

Ohoni.6057:

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

Well, they might not think that anymore, but they clearly believed it at one time or they wouldn’t have bothered with the new Legendary Collections in the first place. I think they underestimated the backlash on the material costs.

Personally, since it’s an easy thing to track, I would have guessed that the sudden move to redirect resources was due to the number of people bothering to acquire and competing the Heart of Thorns collections was far below their projected metrics.

latinkuro.7304:

STIHL.2489:

latinkuro.7304:

This would be just like the magic find armor fiasco we had in the past, so NO THX YOU !

Instead,

Make it an account unlock thing just like they did with magic find, consuming +1 agony infusions to upgrade to higher agony, there problem solved.

And feed these kinds of topics even more?

No thanks.

that has nothing to do with what I proposed !

Making AR account bound will just inspire more people to bring their up-levels to try and do higher level fractals. If that was not your goal, then your idea is bad, if that was your goal, then great idea.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

STIHL.2489:

cranos.5913:

As for rewards though, I think they made a mistake here. IMO raiders would’ve been fine with normal exclusive skins, putting legendary armor as a reward for it was probably not a great idea. It just makes all casuals who don’t wanna put in the time extremely salty, which means a great deal of complaining as seen in this thread, which means the likely possibility the raid team will go the same way the legendary team went as soon as wing 3 is out.

Gotta agree with you. Their motive to affiliate Legendary Armor with the Raid was, I assume, to boost the numbers of Raid participation so they would have some good metrics to show the bean-counters and thus justify the dev staff devoted to it.

But that has the potential to really turn around and bite them in kitten in the long run, as their casual and moderate player base feel alienated, which means they will be less likely to buy the next Expansion or even stay around at all.

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

The only thing we can surmise from the sudden decision to redirect development of Heart of Thorns Legendary Items, is that Heart of Thorns content does not have a priority of other content, like the up coming next Expansion.

This might be because Heart of Thorns which was designed to entertain the more Serious End-Game player, and provide more Challenging Content, was not pulling the metrics needed to justify the developer resources, and that does not bode well for the future of the Raid, which has the same target audience.

But in the end, we don’t have the metrics, we don’t work at Anet, and we don’t know their real motive.

Whatever will be.. will be.

MSFone.3026:

Yes, good idea, in the meantime while they figure out how to make new maps that are good, bring back alpine so people actually have a decent map to play on while new ones that aren’t terrible are being developed.

I believe that is their plan, but the problem is, if people just ask for the old done-to-death alpine borderlands back, without explaining why, then Anet does not realize the problem, and thus can’t fix it, if they ever make a new map, or go to revise the existing Desert Borderland.

EotM is fine, if people enjoy that, allow them to enjoy it, I just think that it should not reward WvW Exp or Give Badges, unless from PvP drops.

cranos.5913:

As for rewards though, I think they made a mistake here. IMO raiders would’ve been fine with normal exclusive skins, putting legendary armor as a reward for it was probably not a great idea. It just makes all casuals who don’t wanna put in the time extremely salty, which means a great deal of complaining as seen in this thread, which means the likely possibility the raid team will go the same way the legendary team went as soon as wing 3 is out.

Gotta agree with you. Their motive to affiliate Legendary Armor with the Raid was, I assume, to boost the numbers of Raid participation so they would have some good metrics to show the bean-counters and thus justify the dev staff devoted to it.

But that has the potential to really turn around and bite them in kitten in the long run, as their casual and moderate player base feel alienated, which means they will be less likely to buy the next Expansion or even stay around at all.

10/10 epic troll.

latinkuro.7304:

This would be just like the magic find armor fiasco we had in the past, so NO THX YOU !

Instead,

Make it an account unlock thing just like they did with magic find, consuming +1 agony infusions to upgrade to higher agony, there problem solved.

And feed these kinds of topics even more?

No thanks.

Hypairion.9210:

STIHL.2489:

Hypairion.9210:

Yes, you want the armor, that is the exact same reward…

Is the armor the only thing that drops in the raid?

i’m talking about the armor because Ohoni only cares about armor. I’m ok from shard from easy mode (in less quantities, since less challenge).

So you’re ok with no armor in easy mode?

LOL, I think it was a foolish move on Anet part to even remotely affiliate Legendary Armor with the raid. It has done nothing good for the game or the community on any level.

It also has the potential to negatively impact the sales for the Crystal Desert Expansion, because it’s pretty clear that some people do not support by this new direction Anet is taking, with skill gating stuff, and thus won’t bother to buy whatever comes next.

And that’s a shame, because I like this game.

Hypairion.9210:

Yes, you want the armor, that is the exact same reward…

Is the armor the only thing that drops in the raid?

I just wanted to say, that regardless of how any of us feel about some of the HoT things added to the WvW landscape, one thing I hope we can agree upon that the Desert Borderlands are in fact really beautiful, you can see the effort and work that the designers and developers put in, to make this map really wonderful.

The small details are really nice, the transitions between environments are wonderful to experience. Honestly, as a map, it’s a true work of art.

While maybe it was not a map ideally suited for WvW, it is none the less a really great map in it’s own right, and I have to say, I think it would make a phenomenal PvE map, with a ‘Silverwastes’ type theme to it, where players defend the Keeps, Towers, Camps,and Altars from continually invading NPC’s. It really is the kind of map that I think PvE players would enjoy more then WvW players do.

So please, lets not scrap the Desert Borderlands, they are beautiful maps, and even if we revamp them to make them more WvW Friendly, please, keep the original and put it into Tyira, where I think it would do a load of good and offer a lot of fun to PvE players that might want a map to replace the Silverwates/Dry Top. Maybe combine it with that area and have it drop bandit crests and geoids.

Just my feelings on it. They are wonderfully Stunning maps with a lot of thought put into them. Just maybe a little too over thought for WvW.

Sird.4536:

If easy mode gave the same rewards as hard even hardcore raiders will abandon it.

No one has asked for the same rewards.

Fair Points and Solid Response.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Devoting of Resources

Here is the thing. They already have a team for Fractals, which is working on instabilities, the new backpack, and even new Fractals, it has been confirmed that we will get new Fractals soon™.
Unlike other methods of making Raids more accessible, turning the Raid fights into Fractals is not just a Raid thing, it’s also a major Fractal addition (9 new Fractals added! Double the amount of Fractal content!) It would actually be worth it to devote resources on this one, resources that have nothing to do with the Living World or the Raids, so I think this is a worthy investment.

I am all for more Fractals, My Point was simply that it would be more work to try and transform the 10 person Raid encounter into a 5 man Fractal Encounter.

Difficulty and Challenge Level affecting Reward

That’s a problem with existing Fractals too. Cliffside and Swampland are completely different in terms of difficulty. A fix is needed here to balance reward/risk but it’s not specific to these new potential Fractals. ALL Fractals need re-balancing of their rewards and as part of that they can figure out proper rewards of the new ones.

As for adding Legendary Armor rewards in these Raids, that’s a big one. The problem here is that Fractal rewards themselves aren’t balanced. Adding another tier of rewards before fixing the current isn’t a very good idea. Now if/when they fix the Fractal reward system (which I hope will come in the April patch) there are ways of adding Raid rewards but there is the big problem of one piece of content offering two different reward systems (raid and fractal). That’s a rough one to balance

I know and can already imagine how specific instabilities at higher levels can turn the encounters much harder than the Raid encounters themselves :P That’s another consideration that requires some careful thinking.

The reward would need to be balanced, because, well, you can run a Fractal daily, where I hare that the raid is a weekly thing. So there is a lot of factors that would need to be taken into consideration while doing this. I don’t there is a simple answer, but it should be addressed none the less.

As for the rewards for Fractals, to me, the best way to fix the rewards in Fractals would be to award “boxes” for each task done, with increased specific rewards based on Fractal Levels.

IE: Players get a Chest for each seal they do in Cliffside.
Players get a Chest for Each room they do in Thermanova, and extra smaller chests for each Portal they close.
Players get a Chest for doing the Wisps in Swampland.
Each Cannon Phase in Mai Trin awards a Chest.

That way, they up the reward for the more involved Fractals, with the reward being inherent to the complexity of the Fractal itself.

I said this on another topic, figure it’s fitting here as well.

STIHL.2489:

No one wants the Alpine back really. They got stale, but what people really want is:

• Swift Direct, Easy Travel, which the Alpine provided and the Deseret did not.

• They don’t want a map full of Gimmicks. WvW for most intents is more a War Zone not a Theme Park. There does not need to be any distractions there to keep us entertained. Thus the Alpine was simple and direct, the Desert is not.

• Distinct Wall Lines for the Buildings. The Alpine map made it easy to know exactly where the walls where, and the layout could be seen from the Mini-Map. The Desert has this convoluted set up where it’s not all walls, and you can’t see the distinct outline from the Mini-Map.

So it’s not that anyone wants the Alpine back, it’s that the Desert fails to preform so badly they would rather go back to the Alpine then continue to deal with the Desert.

Truth is, I would rather they fix the Desert, and learn how to do it right, so they can make more maps.

Durzlla.6295:

So I was just wondering why you, actual WvWers, like the Alpine Borderlands so much more than the Desert Borderland.

No one wants the Alpine back really. They got stale, but what people really want is:

• Swift Direct, Easy Travel, which the Alpine provided and the Deseret did not.

• They don’t want a map full of Gimmicks. WvW for most intents is more a War Zone not a Theme Park. There does not need to be any distractions there to keep us entertained. Thus the Alpine was simple and direct, the Desert is not.

• Distinct Wall Lines for the Buildings. The Alpine map made it easy to know exactly where the walls where, and the layout could be seen from the Mini-Map. The Desert has this convoluted set up where it’s not all walls, and you can’t see the distinct outline from the Mini-Map.

So it’s not that anyone wants the Alpine back, it’s that the Desert fails to preform so badly they would rather go back to the Alpine then continue to deal with the Desert.

Truth is, I would rather they fix the Desert, and learn how to do it right, so they can make more maps.

I want to start this off by saying that I really wanted to love these new maps,. the Alpine maps were getting stale, and I was thrilled to hear that new maps were coming to WvW. I spend most of my time in the Borderlands, often flipping camps and trying to defend my own BL, as opposed to going on the offence.

So, yes, this change was very dear to me. It was something that I was giddy about, and wanted to know as much as I could about the new maps, while at the same time I wanted to experience them with new found awe.

I want to put that out, before I answer these questions.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

I often solo camp flip, and keep things our color as best I can. In a normal hour, I would flip a few camps, kill some Dolyaks, obviously every day needs some dead dolyaks, gotta get that protein to keep fighting somehow. Maybe try my hand at a tower.

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all.

Often in EB, I will want to team up, the need for a larger group in EB is imperative to one’s survival.

*Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

Yes, very much so.

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

Often I spend most of my time trying to transverse the terrain. I can say I don’t want the Alpine Border Lands back, but, movement through the Desert Borderlands needs to be fixed to make it more free flowing. Currently it just feels like whoever was doing the maps got on some vertical design kick, and everything needs to go up and down, and whole place becomes this three dimensional maze, and while maybe that is fun for PvE players, it’s not profitable for a WvW Environment. Getting from Point to Point needs to be swift, easy, and direct. Gimmick’s like air jets and teleporters, get old fast.

I like the Altars, I like the idea of different theme keeps, I’ll think at this point, you could divide up each keeps “Theme” and design a whole borderland around them. A full on “Underground” Borderland, or a “Sky walking” borderland, I love that there is this unique feeling to the keeps, but, again, the way to get to them and through them is awkward, stilted.

I get that the designers are there to try and bring something to us WvW players, but you don’t need to be our entertainment in WvW, we bring the fight, you just need to set up the table that allows us to engage each other in a dynamic way.

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

Not a single thing changed in that front. I mean, really, if anything, it’s gotten less dynamic in the build department, the current Meta is not about knocking people off ledges or into lava, that would be a flavor or theme build, and truth be told, I have not met anyone that does that. The Meta right now is Shatter/Stun Lock and Ranged. And while the Mete can and will change as the game evolves, no one is going to build a push/pull build for ledges or lava, simply because you would need to invest in skills that would lose their effectiveness on open fields, or you would need to build entire maps that were devoted to having those kinds of obstacles in all parts of them.

I mean, there are a lot less people on the borderlands, so, there is less incentive to build for that environment overall, and beyond that, instant death obstacles are not enticing for PvP combat, as most people won’t engage in areas that are full of those kinds of hazards, as builds that have a lot of dodges (Thief/Ranger) run the risk of launching themselves off the ledges, and even a very stable character still has a risk of dodge rolling to their death.

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Anything that requires siege is much harder, the roaming guards make solo siege a real problem. not sure if that was the goal tho. If it was, the kudos, worked on me.

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past?

I think the loot from Lords, and other players has been diminished. It feels that way at least.

• Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing?

No. When I need coin and mats, I have to PvE.

• Did it take a hit, or was it improved?

Feels like it took a hit.

• If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards?

Great Question, because I unlocked my Necro/Reaper from Nothing (Tome-ed to 80th, 3% map completion) to Fully Unlocked exclusively in WvW and it really felt like it took a lot longer to do that then it would have if I opted to just jump though some HoT maps. But I like WvW, so just being able to do that a huge plus.

• Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

Not sure what you mean. I mean, there are very few “WvW” goals, and by “Other” I wager you mean some goal that might be “game wide” like, get crafting to 500, or acquire a legendary.

I am going to have to say. Not really. I mean, I suppose some goals could be obtained like crafting, but, the grind and the time to try and do that purely from WvW, would make it a saga as opposed to the day trip it could be in PvE.

Do something like get a Legendary only playing WvW, no way.

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

Killed them. I get tired of needing to navigate the map. With the Way Points being locked up, requiring running to all locations, coupled with maps that are designed to make travel daunting, just makes getting around a chore, and I get exhausted from that alone very quickly, something going wrong like falling to my death on the southern part of the map, and I’m done for a while, just not motivated to run back, so I often swap to PvE or Log off.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Level them out to make travel smooth simple and straightforward all around the map. Add Way Points that the Defenders can use to cut travel time to the southern area of the map. Make Keep/Tower walls clearly defined, and Stop with the Gimmicks, Think of WvW as a Combat Zone, not a Theme Park. Just keep it simple.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

They Don’t. On my server, most new players are directed to Eternal Battlegrounds if they want to get into WvW. That is where most of the people are.

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

As vet in WVW, You’re there to do something, be it capture, defend, or kill, you’re there to do a task, as such if Travel is daunting that makes doing the task aggravating, and the gimmicks get old fast because gimmicks are just that, gimmicks. They are great for PvE, they do not work for WvW.

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

My Home Borderland. Someone has to be here, as everyone else is in EB. LOL.

Sykper.6583:

- Release Legendary Armor in another mode, perhaps a similar style to Legendary Weapons where you scour Tyria for them. The best compromise and honestly I would even say this solution is required, I see no reason for Raids to have Legendary Armor only.

I think this would go a long way in resolving the issue for many players.

maddoctor.2738:

Raids in fractals. People have been asking for easy-mode raids but I don’t think that’s a good thing. So instead of that add the Raid bosses in Fractal format (for 5 people) with all the usual fractal rewards.

Want Raid rewards? Play the Raid.
Want to experience the story of the Raid? Play it in fractal form

This could work to a point. I could see the Rewards for Completion being benign (IE: No legendary stuff) in the “Non-Agony” fractal levels, but once you get to the Fractal Level where you need Agony Resist, this would become “Raid Boss with a Gear-Check and Mist-Instability” It would be fitting that they should get in on the Legendary Action.

With that minor change, I think that would be a great solution.

Thank you.

I’d love to go over these point by point, and while we can approach things always with the understanding that “better” is a relative term, it’s really the first one that catches my attention the most.

maddoctor.2738:

1) Raid encounters as Fractals:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/What-new-fractals-would-you-like-to-see/first#post6036048

5-man content, bonus Fractals for the Fractal crowd (at least 9 new Fractals!) massive amount of content. Already existing reward system, fits the lore (as far as fractals fit it at least). Much easier than 10-man content. Perfect to see the Story, if that’s what you want, perfect for extra Fractal content after all this time, doesn’t give Legendary armor though.

I have to say, I kinda like this idea, but only to a point.

The first thing that comes to mind is:
Devoting of Resources

Since, Converting a Raid into a Fractal, arguably, would take a lot more balance programming, and revision then simply toning down the numbers of the existing Raid to make an Easy Mode, I wonder what would be the gain from doing this, especially by a company that is already, potentially strapped for development staff.

The next point would be.

Difficulty and Challenge Level affecting Reward

Unless this quasi-part raid would be restricted to existing in the Pre -20’s Fractals, it becomes:

“The Raid – with a Gear Check”

This becomes even more pronounced the higher up the fractal level you go. And then you factor in the Mist-Instability to the existing Raid Mechanics, it can easily become a greater challenge for the players then the Raid itself is. Which means it should provide not only the same rewards, but contingent upon the fractal level, in some cases better.

I could fully understand that if the “Raid Specific” parts, like the parts needed to make Legendary Armor, were only available for the post 20 Fractals, perhaps even needing post 50, and I would say that by the Post-75, the reward might even surpass the Raid itself, because by that time, with the massive gear check, and mist-instabilities, it could become far harder then the raid.

You know, with just a minor variation in the rewards to fix them to be more inline to the Challenge/Demand, I could totally get behind this as a solution.

maddoctor.2738:

I made loads of proposals

I’ve read most of your posts, I don’t recall a single proposal on your part to make raids more accessible to the population, refresh my memory please.