Guild Wars 2

Oxstar.7643:

I know, this may be beating a dead horse, but I feel it deserves more scrutiny.
Every class has some form of stomper skill. Thieves however need only hit cloack & dagger ONCE and BOOM, 5 secs of stealth – Well enough to stomp. What sits a bit wrong with me, and I suspect others as well, is that they can do it so frequently while the other classes have to fall back on lengthy cooldowns. Engineers have elixir S, Elementalists have mist form, Rangers have Fight together as one, etc. Thief though? One skills that has no CD whatsoever. They don’t even need to use a utility slot for it, unlike the rest of us.

So how does one interpret this? Should it just be considered a class feature? Does the thief really need class specific features like that, considering they are pretty strong already? I’m not so sure. What do you guys think?

Solution to your problem. Don’t go down!

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

I’m sure you’ll agree that the two cannot go together. Either autoattack and have low damage, or have a skill that does a lot more and has a CD (or at least has some kind of opportunity cost. AFAIK BS doesn’t even use any initiative…)

Like I said, my initial post was about unstealthing with a botched BS. But I don’t mind a cooldown period or the thief’s skills being replaced by the regular skill set.

Either would address the issue.

BS cost 4-9 init paid via CnD or BP+NS, or a healing on a 30 sec CD, or a utility on a 45+sec CD.

It also has an artificial CD of 4 secs via reveal debuff.

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

Kaon.7192:

Sifu.6527:

Kaon.7192:

zaxon.6819:

the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.

the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.

Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.

Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.

I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.

The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.

This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.

That’s an interesting way of looking at it.

But in that sense, are you saying that as long as you land the C&D or pop your stealth cooldowns, you should be rewarded with as many chances as the stealth duration allows for to land your backstab? I still don’t think I can agree with that.

I want to elaborate in greated detail why I think is it balance.

For start, the target already had the opportunity to prevent BS by avoiding (block, invul, etc) CnD. The only exception to this is stealth via heal/utilities.

Secondly, stealth is the thief ultimate tool in regards to both offense and defense. You know the thief is within your proximity but you can’t pinpoint its exact location. You have to look at “block, miss, evade, invul, ect” messages as an indication that the thief is right next to you trying to attack thus giving up their defense aka location. If you know he is right next to you, you can counter with aoe such as binding blade/pull/WW etc. There are other ways to counter too. A sword warrior can turn around and F1 to immobilize as it track closest target and immobilize the thief for some nasty punishment. Ele can do a 180 then BS. At this point, I hope you get the idea. One aegis can do more than just “block”….

Easy way to fix this. Everyone runs at the same speed when out of combat. Swiftness and other movement bonuses should not stack with out of combat speed.

swinsk.6410:

Is there going to be such a thing? I play like Yashis. I like to 1v5 or more. D/D + S/D atm.

I am running valk armor, divinity runes, berserker everything else.

I just got ascended back piece and rings/ammy for thief as well. Only missing earrings and now my class gets nerfed.

I feel like that since our class is losing at least 20% the amount of time in stealth due the nerf that there won’t be a spot for the “balanced” thief anymore.

We will have to go completely glass or condition. After nerf thief won’t be able to stay in a fight even with all defensive traits because we will be forced to be visible way more often. There won’t be such a thing as using CND to gain positioning.

I think we will be forced to kill something quickly and run like hell, which sounds more like a glass cannon to me than a balanced thief.

Forget thief in spvp, if they can’t stealth as much they will eat my HB combo much easier from my warrior. This change practically nullifies the thief in spvp imo.

How else are people preparing to deal with the nerf? I think I will have to completely change the way I play the game as a thief. Thank you ANet, just what I wanted.

EDIT: I was playing my thief this weekend and I was solo as usual. Some ranger I killed invites me to group and the first thing he says is “I can’t wait for your playstyle to get nerfed.”

Funny thing is, I never “abused” cnd against him, not once. I killed him flat out with regular revealed and using stealth attack every time.

Our class is getting nerfed because of kittens like this guy, really?

Response to your edit comment. I believe so. This nerf has nothing to do about the competitive tpvp. This was purely done to applease the WvW playerbase.

SilverWF.4789:

My Engineer with 3200 Defense has never recieved hits more than 5k per single strike. And mostly it was something like 2-3k

So I dunno what you talking about on “12k hit to the warrior with 3200 armor” – just didn’t believe this.

The warrior said “I don’t know what hit me. Maybe it was mug or backstab.”

I think he saw 3 attacks and added it together and called it backstab…

He probably saw something like this…
3K Mug+3K CnD+6K BS

That or he tried to Frenzy HB the thief and ate a Backstab…

Kaon.7192:

Sifu.6527:

Kaon.7192:

zaxon.6819:

the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.

the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.

Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.

Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.

I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.

The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.

This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.

That’s an interesting way of looking at it.

But in that sense, are you saying that as long as you land the C&D or pop your stealth cooldowns, you should have as many chances as the stealth duration allows for to land your backstab? I still don’t think I can agree with that.

Yes, that is my opinion.

Kaon.7192:

zaxon.6819:

the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.

the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.

Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.

Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.

I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.

The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.

This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.

A thief can continue to Backstab in stealth until it does damage at which time the reveal debuff is applied. Since the thief is not dealing damage when the attack is block, miss/evade, or invul, the reveal debuff does not trigger – this is how the mechanic works. Is it balance? Yes, please see first two paragraphs for my reason but to repeat it, we already paid the cost to use Backstab.

Kaon.7192:

addikt.1270:

bhagwad.4281:

addikt.1270:

Or is it just that you feel you should be rewarded somehow for surviving an initial hit? Yeah. lets reward you for doing that. and actually ruin the whole build for a dd thief just because you managed to evade the initial backstab, and like i said, refuse to hit that one button.

Anyway, BS unblockable ftw.

But nevertheless backstab should be unblockable.

If by “rewarded” you mean being safe from that particular attack at least till the next time the thief stealths…then yes!

I’m concerned that you think being unable to spam BS “ruins” the build for a D/D thief. Don’t you want at least some skill to play?

i dont really know how many times can one spam backstab in 2-3 seconds (depending on how long it takes to get in position), and maybe you didnt know.. but once you land it, you get revealed, so, “spamming backstab” is not an option.
and yes, nerfing backstab that way will break the build because it will take a huge amount of luck to actually land it (maybe if the opponent was sleeping or something). The glass cannon build is ment to deal that huge damage (which anyway requires good positioning before you even use steal to actually have chance to get close to instagibb) – observe the emphasys on how backstab isnt that easy to play as you think it is -. If you blow your burst then you might as well disengage, and if not, most of the times die, considering the opponent is not a total noob.
So you see.. playing a dd bs build requires that you have some skills to set up the burst and the rest of them to escape/survive. How much viable will that build be when you get to mess it up more often than now. Because when you play on a higher level, people actually know how to counter. Which leads me to the same question.. why do you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say why you prefer not to press the counter button?

Spamming BS in this context refers to repeatedly missing your BS until it hits.
I think you’re confusing luck with skill, patience, and practice. Instead of mindlessly spamming 1 until backstab hits, this change will force the Thief to observe his opponent more carefully, watching for dodges, aegis, stunbreak cooldowns, etc.

Right now, dodge, the counter button shared by all classes that SHOULD work on backstab, doesn’t work because backstab can simply be repeated until the evade is over. No other kind of burst has this fail-safe functionality, and backstab shouldn’t either, as it trivializes the consequences of bad play on the thief’s part as well as good play from the opponent.

Warriors do not lose their adrenaline when the target miss/evade/invul etc. It is however put on CD.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shemsu.8721:

Actually the BPS + HS combo is the most efficient way to stack stealth. with Infusion of shadow each heartseeker is only 1 init, so you can easily and cheaply get multiple stacks of stealth for a duration much greater than CnD

How does that relate to the discussion?

The claim was;

What do you do now when you miss a BS on D/P? Resealth right? Just have to wait a bit longer now. Is this huge? No, but it does impact D/P somewhat…

But still the “impact” was not explained other than trying to get away for which there are many other alternatives to achieve the same goal other than stealth.

I think Stiv did a better job at explaining it than me.

With that being said, what is your point?

I was the one asking what this “impact” is going to happen to D/P that affects it in some illusionary negative way.

By the way, why is BP+HS combo ridiculous?

I see the problem now. Reading comprehension. That’s not what I’m saying.

Sorry, english isn’t my first language. But I thought you said “I wanted him to explain the ridiculousness of trying to gain stealth using D/P.” Did I interrupted this incorrectly?

Iove.3902:

Also it would behoove you to remember that CND builds as well as Thief mobility are receiving buffs. Devs have said that they want to give us more types of conditions. Here’s hoping you can do some burn damage.

They also said there will be no gear grind…

Drawing Guy.3701:

skupuz.6940:

Drawing Guy.3701:

I do wonder – he relied on CnD spam multiple times to stay permastealth for recovery, and that “tool” (read as “crutch”) will be lost. What will he use instead? Change traits for dodges? Drop SoS for another stealth utility for powder? Curious. But then to be honest, I doubt he will not be terribly affected – he’s not the burst and run builds that rely on the permastealth waiting for a target to 25/30/0/0/15 (or close iteration) burst – he is aggressive and has the same affect as he would have in most cases anyways. The culling removal is likely to have a bigger affect on him. =d

Can you tell me how to perma stealth with 25/30/0/015? I would really like to see that as I can only CnD maybe 2-3 times before I have to wait for init regen…

I’ve played that build as a thief, and with a combination of CnD and heal/utilities, had runs of over 20 seconds of perma-stealth. Durations like this is more than enough to lair in zergs, especially considering I don’t even have to try to keep it perfectly stacked with culling to help. No, it’s not infinite perma-stealth, but you don’t need that for picking off 1vX fights – you have more than enough to run away with and reach a hide point, which is all you care about with this build anyways. If you’re keep lairing or whatever, there are build options for that too (though not as easy since they took off wall hitting CnD)

Based on the context you used “perma-stealth” I too have it in my 0/0/0/0/0 build!

Dasorine.1964:

I still don’t get why they are doing a blanket nerf rather than altering the few cases that are vailidly silly or exploitative…

It will effect all thieves to some degree if only by limiting choices and not just in pvp but in pve, there are times when switching to full stealth utilities to do something is the easier way (and balanced in such that you have to use full utils and burn em) and of course there are traits and builds that can use stealth repeatedly in defensive methods in a balanced but because some idiots died to a CnD hit every 3-4 seconds or such they decide to blanket nerf the entire mechanic rather than tweaking those few exploitative/imbalanced situations.

Im just very upset that anet seems to have put very little thought into this AND gone against many of their previous statements (of not nerfing professions, not using WvW to effect massive game encompassing changes etc etc)

Are there things about stealth that need to be changed? yes there is, but an ignorant blanket nerf that hurts other builds and professions just as much if not more is not the way to do it.

I too have made suggestion on how to fix this but it was drowned in a sea of QQ threads/posts.

Chaining CnD, at least to me, is fine but should only be possible 2 times max until you run out of init. However, there are traits such as Infusion of Shadow, Patience, quick recovery, etc that allows for indefinite stealth. Instead of nerfing those traits, they went ahead with a blanket nerf. Right or wrong, only time will tell.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shemsu.8721:

Actually the BPS + HS combo is the most efficient way to stack stealth. with Infusion of shadow each heartseeker is only 1 init, so you can easily and cheaply get multiple stacks of stealth for a duration much greater than CnD

How does that relate to the discussion?

The claim was;

What do you do now when you miss a BS on D/P? Resealth right? Just have to wait a bit longer now. Is this huge? No, but it does impact D/P somewhat…

But still the “impact” was not explained other than trying to get away for which there are many other alternatives to achieve the same goal other than stealth.

I think Stiv did a better job at explaining it than me.

With that being said, what is your point?

By the way, why is BP+HS combo ridiculous?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

I was asking how it affect D/P. Never asked anything about CnD.

If you’re argument is the same as the other guy (who misses BS) then that’s just a horrible play of the Thief profession. :/

Pretty much what the other guy said. You miss the BS and or auto. “Miss” as in not getting to target in time, target dodges, aegis, lag, kittened up your combo, what have you.

Not sure how you’re going to argue with that. You’re asking me how it affect D/P and I gave it to you.

If you want to talk about good players vs bad players, we can talk about that too.

That doesn’t affect the weapon set at all since any weapon set can make that claim, yet you excluded some of them.

This is a player’s judgment issue, not a stealth issue.

Uh? I’m not tracking. Are you saying there’s no stealth on a D/P set (I believe we’re just talking about weapon sets and not heal/utilities)?

I’m saying is that S/P can make the same claim, yet you didn’t add it.

I didn’t know you can stealth using S/P…

In my original comment, I replied to someone stating “it [change to reveal debuff] basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.” So I listed every weapon set that has stealth and will be affect by the new change. This is not considering utilties/traits/heal. Nothing more nothing less.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

I was asking how it affect D/P. Never asked anything about CnD.

If you’re argument is the same as the other guy (who misses BS) then that’s just a horrible play of the Thief profession. :/

Pretty much what the other guy said. You miss the BS and or auto. “Miss” as in not getting to target in time, target dodges, aegis, lag, kittened up your combo, what have you.

Not sure how you’re going to argue with that. You’re asking me how it affect D/P and I gave it to you.

If you want to talk about good players vs bad players, we can talk about that too.

That doesn’t affect the weapon set at all since any weapon set can make that claim, yet you excluded some of them.

This is a player’s judgment issue, not a stealth issue.

Uh? I’m not tracking. Are you saying there’s no stealth on a D/P set (I believe we’re just talking about weapon sets and not heal/utilities)?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

I was asking how it affect D/P. Never asked anything about CnD.

If you’re argument is the same as the other guy (who misses BS) then that’s just a horrible play of the Thief profession. :/

Pretty much what the other guy said. You miss the BS and or auto. “Miss” as in not getting to target in time, target dodges, aegis, lag, kittened up your combo, what have you.

Not sure how you’re going to argue with that. You’re asking me how it affect D/P and I gave it to you.

If you want to talk about good players vs bad players, we can talk about that too.

To summarize this thread:

Anet – You will get reveal debuff everytime now when leaving stealth. We did this because it is imbalance in WvW although we said we weren’t going to make balancing decisions based on what happens in WvW. Suckers!

D/D Players – wtf man, this nerf will hit us hard! kitten you Anet!

S/D Players – Oh stfu D/D players, learn to play.

D/P and P/D Players – Who cares…

P/P Players – Where the kitten are the buffs you promised me!!!

Until next patch…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sifu.6527:

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

How exactly does it affect D/P? :/

I was speaking to the change in mechanic in a general sense and not to CnD by itself.

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

ensoriki.5789, I am not concerned about what you can and cannot do to avoid a freaking bulls charge. Stop talking to me about it. It’s a moot point.

We all know how to avoid them.

My point is that thieves are now missing their #1 tool to avoid getting bursted by any class. That is chain stealth.

You cannot argue me on this because it is a fact.

It isn’t its situational. So long as you continue it it works otherwise you are subject to a back stab like everyone else. Chaining can also get you killed under certain utils by exposing your crutch play and end up get aoe cc’d and then smashed.

The point means little Chain CND is nerfed but you aren’t defenceless regardless so it is not something to lose sleep over unless you can justify how it is ‘required’ to successfully play a thief and you have not.

In addition it basically does not even touch certain weapon sets.

Yes –
D/D
D/P
S/D
P/D

No-
S/P
P/P
SB

It affects 4 out of 7 weapon sets which is a lot.

Sebrent.3625:

It’s not horribly crippling. It forces Thieves and Mesmers to be visible for 3 seconds after every stealth.

Here’s an idea boys and girls … try out the sword. What’s this?! A weapon whose auto-attack chain puts crippling and weakness on the enemy?! And a shadow return on weapon skill #2?! Wow!

Go in stealth, shadow return out during reveal. Rinse and repeat.

Good thieves have already been doing this sort of thing.

Have trouble with bunkers if you’re not a cannon?! Well most bunkers use boons. Put a dagger in your off-hand with that sword. Oh my! Now you have boon removal! Welcome to the ranks of Mesmers and Necromancers. You’re one of the less than 1/2 of classes that now has reliable boon removal.

Sword + Dagger Thief … it’s for the big boys and girls.

Reliable boon removal? Are you trolling us?

ensoriki.5789:

swinsk.6410:

Just saying, this change is a huge playstyle nerf for the balanced thief. Possibly killing the build all together…

I think the “balanced” thief will be a thing of the past and from now on you are either playing condition or glass.

This change hurts build diversity and lessens the value of all “stealth” traits. I didn’t see any buffs from ANet to our class in compensation for the huge nerf.

I honestly think that the “balanced” thief will be a thing of the past now because of this change.

What about sPvP thieves? For real, with the nerf in spvp thieves will be free points. The second they come out of stealth and I know their stun break is down they are eating HB+frenzy+bull charge. As it is now, thieves are pretty easy to beat in spvp. After change I think thieves won’t have a place in spvp.

EDIT: I’m not trying discuss the change itself but rather what people are thinking about changing to adapt to it. I think the change is kitten and shouldn’t an issues. I would have told all the QQers “L2P”, but ANet listened to you. You have already won. I am trying to learn to live with it.

….
Playing in Soldier runes is balanced….many thieves drop into Soldiers to get some staying power.

I really wonder about this balanced thief because it doesn’t sound anything of the sort if you care about this nerf. In wvw S/D dazes for 3s, reveal last 3s. Doing the math…hmmm.. It’s not an issue there.

I run S/P + Shortbow a good 70% of the time, going S/D + Shortbow the other 30%.
As an S/P my Stealth skills are His and SR. I spend, VERY little time in stealth.
If you’re build is so contingent on stealth, that this change destroys it, is not balanced or you do not know how to play it to significant potential.
There isn’t a pletheora of thieves playing sword in tpvp off the top of my head I can pull out Ackwin and Sinoctis wave? Everyone else is on the D/P time with a couple D/D’s generally low ranked. Stealth is not that big a deal. Whether they are playing in Soldier runes and being far sturdy than you are as “balanced” or Berserker. They don’t just drop dead. Learn to manipulate Inf strike, and a warrior isn’t bursting you with a great sword until you’re out of initiative to begin or pre-occupied. Survived warriors at 4k hp, in frenzy just by pressing 2 and warping out. If you’re running a tanker spec it’s not even debatable. Now Whirling strike is a threat. Hundred blades? Meh.

Greatsword warriors are easily kited by the shortbow. Hundred blades is with no doubt the least of your worries. In fact the whole frenzy +HB combo, get’s ignored by Two uses of Distracting shot even if you are immobilized.
You run S/D + D/D.
Interesting tip, Cast Inf strike without a target if you so please. You now have a stun break and to boot will move away from him if immobilized. If immobilized you can D/D Deathblossom or Flanking strike to mitigate damage.

I really won’t have to change anything other than ceasing to chain CnD’s on a Shadow arts S/D build. Don’t waste stealth, if the hit isn’t going to happen then just reposition yourself. It’s only 3 seconds. the 3/4s you were in stealth will of recovered 15-40% of your endurance depending on vigor. Running daggers, 1 auto will boost that up significantly. You get 3s of reveal which you can just dodge through. You can basically easily get 1 dodge whenever you so feel after Stealthing with a dodge wasting 1s. If 2s of vulnerability is too much for you to handle at all, brah.
Step your game up.

Just three simple questions.

Which mode do you play more; WvW or s/tPvP? Do you play S/P in WvW? Do you solo, play ikittenmain, or follow the commander?

Thanks

Boulderbolg.3460:

In my opinion, Yishis’s best commentary Thief video yet. Among his usual great commentary, in this video he touches on how to deal with a well played D/D Elementalist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XubClqLgJnY

No longer posible after March 26. Good video good play. RIP.

vespers.1759:

he must be an incredibly bad thief

Found this thread and since you’re talking about me, no where did I say the ranger killed me. I was just speaking to the new tracking after stealth.

But hey, since we’re on the topic of good/bad player, how about a duel vs your ranger? 250g whoever wins.

Musty.3148:

Sifu.6527:

Musty.3148:

Bern.9613:

You seem to forget the things that ANet can’t nerf. The power of conviction and the ability to adapt and overcome. Those that play thief are experts at it. .

Oh, Em Gee…

No, they aren’t, you see, every Tom, Kitten, and Harry that wanted to be a WvW “expert” picked the Thief because it is easymode. I’ll say it again, I have an 80 Thief that I quit becuase it’s facerollingly easymode.

There may be a “power of conviction” from a certain subset of the thief playerbase… But I’m here to tell you the overwhelming majority will kitten quit their thiefs when they find they don’t suddenly become Chuck Kitten Norris when they switch to that toon.

I love how you’re like thief is easymode. I quit that class because it is so easy to faceroll. But then proceed to roll 3 other OP classes; Guardian, Ele, and Mesmer.

Yeah, cause on opening day I knew what all the OP classes were…

The Thief was my 3rd toon of those.

And My warrior is 73 (in process), but I don’t like pet classes so no Ranger or Necro for me, don’t like the playstyle of the Engi… that leaves… oh wait.

EDIT: yeah, and if I happen to have 4 of the most OP classes and say that the Thief is WAAAAY worse than all the others, you should probably think I know how it really is. just sayin’.

I made that comment because you said you quit because thief is so easymode to faceroll. I assume you want to play a class that isn’t easymode and gives you a challenge. I just find it funny you only play OP classes and it contradict the point you’re trying to make. That’s all.

Stay on topic please.

Musty.3148:

Bern.9613:

You seem to forget the things that ANet can’t nerf. The power of conviction and the ability to adapt and overcome. Those that play thief are experts at it. .

Oh, Em Gee…

No, they aren’t, you see, every Tom, Kitten, and Harry that wanted to be a WvW “expert” picked the Thief because it is easymode. I’ll say it again, I have an 80 Thief that I quit becuase it’s facerollingly easymode.

There may be a “power of conviction” from a certain subset of the thief playerbase… But I’m here to tell you the overwhelming majority will kitten quit their thiefs when they find they don’t suddenly become Chuck Kitten Norris when they switch to that toon.

I love how you’re like thief is easymode. I quit that class because it is so easy to faceroll. But then proceed to roll 3 other OP classes; Guardian, Ele, and Mesmer.

Oh BTW, be careful about using stealth stomp from now on. That kitten will probably get you killed.

Zog.3954:

Gamblit.5041:

Zog.3954:

Don’t forget they are going to bump our mobility as well. So if you need to get away, you will be able to when any one of those pop (we already can for the most part)

Stop spreading lies. They said “Looking to increase mobility for sets other than the shortbow”. LOOKING INTO IT. Do you understand what that means?

Also i find it rather disappointing that they didn’t mention anything about our AOE. No shortbow? No aoe.

" Sets other then shortbow"? What does it means?
Daggers have Heartseeker 450 range.
Sword have Infiltrator’s Strike 600 range.
Pistol – only weapon with out any ranged mobility skills.

Are they going to increase range on Daggers and Swords mobility skills ( why?), or add something to Pistols?

No idea. They didn’t specified anything expect what you can find in that quote. But as i said in other posts too, they didn’t said we will get them this patch. More like “its on the table” thing.

They said “we’re looking into xxxx” to string us along. You guys remember that post from Anet regarding buffing pistol in a meaningful way?

We go 5% more damage and that was it.

I watched the entire video and paid close attention to the discussion on thief.

It sounds like the Dev, and in particular Karl, really don’t know what a thief really does nor have any real plans to tune them. He sounds like he was beating around the bush just to pass time to move on to the next class.

He said “Infil Strike gives thief massive distance mobility.” I don’t consider 600 range “massive” distance. Maybe he was referring to Shadow Return but how can a Dev that is in charge of class balancing mix the two skills? Nor did he mention that Shadow Return is buggy and is only reliable on a flat/horizontal surface. I’m not too comfortable with him in charge…

mixu.4281:

So, I happened to stop by the GW2 State of the Game stream just in time for their discussion on thieves. Apparently, ANET plans to change stealth so that it applies the revealed buff, regardless if you hit something or not.

Discuss.

I didn’t know thief was a top tier Tpvp class….

RedSpectrum.1975:

Those rare yet beautiful times your CnD sets off a strike/blast and then the follow up bs sets off a strike/blast

I thought they share the same CD…

Yams.6082:

Nex.2450:

Something that you can do right off the bat is make sure to have traits blind on stealth, and remove conditions while in stealth activated. The blinds will make it much harder for the opponent to land C&D, and the constant condition removal will nullify most of their damage.

…

They can do this by:
C&D off surrounding NPC’s.

With the build I linked above, I’d have to sacrifice one of the following for blind on stealth: initiative gain on stealth or regen in stealth traits. Seeing as how black powder + HS burns a lot of initiative, would you recommend ditching the regen?

The second part usually isn’t an issue. I lead the fight away from areas with mobs when fighting thieves (learned from all the D/D ones I fought). I’d like to remove the terrain advantage that they have when I can

I will learn to dodge that CnD. You’d think that for something with such a long animation it’d be easier to notice…

kenshinakh.3672:

You can also counter P/D with GC D/D. P/D thieves are still squishy and hitting a P/D thief with a D/D burst can kill them or cause them to retreat as quickly as possible.

A friend of mine plays a P/D condition thief as part of a havoc squad. He’s told me he has 2600 toughness and 16,000 HP. I don’t believe P/D’s are built squishy.

2600 toughness and 16,000 H kitten quishy. You need 20K P and 3200 toughness to survive a pure glass cannon D/D thief (assuming you eat all of the damage from Steal/CnD/BS).

On a 1900 armor lvl 80 target, my highest crit was 14.5K BS, 8K steal and 8 CnD.

Doomdesire.9365:

S/D destroys them with ease. The most important thing is to make sure you dodge the CnD. Doing that in itself will kill every single thief who relies on cloak and dagger, at least what I’ve found.

Nice sig. I challege you to a 1v1 duel! (assuming you’re a thief).

oZii.2864:

Sifu.6527:

danbuter.2314:

I like the pistol/pistol thief from the rp and animations aspect, but it seems that it won’t hold up compared to other builds. Is there a recommended build for p/p?

Are there certain skills that really help it out?
thanks

P/P is awesome in duels.

It beats P/D, S/D, S/P, SB, D/D, etc you name it.

But WvW isn’t about duel and you really need a weapon set that allows you to be flexible. P/P isn’t that.

Really? if your dueling full glass when you blow the load then I can see. I never had a problem with P/P. Its so front loaded that after the initial burst is avoided they are basically naked and ripe for the taking. Just speaking from my experience against P/P thieves I always see them as free kills. Always the same openimg and dump most if not all of their damage. If it fails then Hide in shadows is almost always a certain after that.

Yes, for dueling only. There is nothing you can do vs a P/P thief in duel.

danbuter.2314:

I like the pistol/pistol thief from the rp and animations aspect, but it seems that it won’t hold up compared to other builds. Is there a recommended build for p/p?

Are there certain skills that really help it out?
thanks

P/P is awesome in duels.

It beats P/D, S/D, S/P, SB, D/D, etc you name it.

But WvW isn’t about duel and you really need a weapon set that allows you to be flexible. P/P isn’t that.

IamDuddits.1692,

Can you not read?

Line by line.

“So I decided to just chuck the gold I had to the mystic forge. 478 rare greatswords later, I got zilch. "

200 gold to buy all 478

“You misunderstand. Actually I still have half of my gold left”

This statement makes me believe he spent only half of his gold to buy 478 rare greatswords therefore he really had anywhere from 400-450g.

Could he saved up 478 greatsword? Yes, but then why didnt he sell them for 200g + 300-400g from charged lodestone to buy his dawn?

IamDuddits.1692:

Sifu.6527:

IamDuddits.1692:

Sifu.6527:

Atreus.5429:

You misunderstand. Actually I still have half of my gold left. What’s depressing is the realization that the most efficient way to get to that point where I can actually afford a precursor on the TP is to grind COF mindlessly and/or play the TP instead of the game. That’s what’s depressing. The Sunrise (I’ve wvwvw’d, I’ve gotten Dungeon Master (before the nerf), and I’ve gotten what ascended items I could. ) was the (only) goal I was working towards and the Dawn was the only thing getting my way. It was either I gambled or painfully ground my way to the requisite amount of gold to afford one. The thought of going through COF for two to three hours whenever I can was just too much.

By the way, if anyone is wondering, /age is at 750.

I’m going to call your buff here.

You have all of your gifts right? That means 100 charged lodestone and 250 each of every crafting material right?

Lets see what you can get if you add everything together. (These are rough numbers)

250 Ecto – 100G
100 Charged Lodestones – 300-350G
250 each lvl 400 crafting mats – 200-300G
Icy Runestones – 100g
Money you saved up – 450g

Rough Estimate is -
1300G including the gold you saved up.
850G not including the gold you saved up.

Price of Dawn – 500 to 600G

You had plenty of gold. I don’t understand your QQ!

The question is, why didn’t you build the precusor first?

Where does he say he saved up 450 g? From doing the numbers on the rare great swords he bought I get he had less than 200 gold: 478 GS at ~35 s each is about 168 g, at 40 s each he’d have roughly 191 g.

I myself have sunk 15 g into the forge and am done experimenting with that. I was lucky enough to get Emberglow which sold for ~15 g on my second try (using rares that I crafted while maxing Weaponsmithing no less) and decided to use the 15 g to see what I could get out of the forge. I’d rather save up and buy mats than believe in some dream that the forge will make me rich.

For the record, I don’t think that obtaining a legendary should be easier rather I think it should be more than a gold grind. I feel like there are just better ways of making the legendary item seem like more of a skill-based accomplishment than devotion to farming CoF or other zones for gold.

Another large problem is that the low drop rates and expensive transmutation costs make the TP the most cost efficient source of nearly every Tier 6 mat Fine and every Lodestone.

Look at my calculation without the 450G. He would still have 850G enough for a Dawn. Again, I don’t understand the OP’s QQ…

Is it so unreasonable to assume that he probably acquired much of those resources over time, bit by bit? Do you mean to imply that he had 850 G he was sitting on and just mass purchased all the gifts in one run?

If that is your assumption, then yes he should’ve just bought the precursor before prices went up. However, my guess is that most people figure they will get Gift of Fortune and Gift of Mastery first (because they are universal) and then hope they get a lucky drop while farming up the basic mats.

Ok, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he crafted the Gift of Fortune and Gift of Mastery first as those are universal. That leaves us with the precursor “dawn” and Gift of Sunrise.

Gift of Sunrise requires 100 Charge Lodestone and 100 Icy Runestones. Why in the world would you craft those first? Thats 500G right there! 500G + 450G saved = 950gold! Almost enough for 2 Dawn precursors. For kittening sake…

He probably wanted to play the RNG game and when he got kittened, he blamed it on RNG for his downfall instead of his crappy planning.

IamDuddits.1692:

Sifu.6527:

Atreus.5429:

You misunderstand. Actually I still have half of my gold left. What’s depressing is the realization that the most efficient way to get to that point where I can actually afford a precursor on the TP is to grind COF mindlessly and/or play the TP instead of the game. That’s what’s depressing. The Sunrise (I’ve wvwvw’d, I’ve gotten Dungeon Master (before the nerf), and I’ve gotten what ascended items I could. ) was the (only) goal I was working towards and the Dawn was the only thing getting my way. It was either I gambled or painfully ground my way to the requisite amount of gold to afford one. The thought of going through COF for two to three hours whenever I can was just too much.

By the way, if anyone is wondering, /age is at 750.

I’m going to call your buff here.

You have all of your gifts right? That means 100 charged lodestone and 250 each of every crafting material right?

Lets see what you can get if you add everything together. (These are rough numbers)

250 Ecto – 100G
100 Charged Lodestones – 300-350G
250 each lvl 400 crafting mats – 200-300G
Icy Runestones – 100g
Money you saved up – 450g

Rough Estimate is -
1300G including the gold you saved up.
850G not including the gold you saved up.

Price of Dawn – 500 to 600G

You had plenty of gold. I don’t understand your QQ!

The question is, why didn’t you build the precusor first?

Where does he say he saved up 450 g? From doing the numbers on the rare great swords he bought I get he had less than 200 gold: 478 GS at ~35 s each is about 168 g, at 40 s each he’d have roughly 191 g.

I myself have sunk 15 g into the forge and am done experimenting with that. I was lucky enough to get Emberglow which sold for ~15 g on my second try (using rares that I crafted while maxing Weaponsmithing no less) and decided to use the 15 g to see what I could get out of the forge. I’d rather save up and buy mats than believe in some dream that the forge will make me rich.

For the record, I don’t think that obtaining a legendary should be easier rather I think it should be more than a gold grind. I feel like there are just better ways of making the legendary item seem like more of a skill-based accomplishment than devotion to farming CoF or other zones for gold.

Another large problem is that the low drop rates and expensive transmutation costs make the TP the most cost efficient source of nearly every Tier 6 mat Fine and every Lodestone.

OP said “So I decided to just chuck the gold I had to the mystic forge. 478 rare greatswords later, I got zilch.”

478* .50 silver per = 239

Later, the OP said I only used 1/2 of my gold. So he had roughly 450 total…

Look at my calculation without the 450G. He would still have 850G enough for a Dawn. Again, I don’t understand the OP’s QQ…

Atreus.5429:

You misunderstand. Actually I still have half of my gold left. What’s depressing is the realization that the most efficient way to get to that point where I can actually afford a precursor on the TP is to grind COF mindlessly and/or play the TP instead of the game. That’s what’s depressing. The Sunrise (I’ve wvwvw’d, I’ve gotten Dungeon Master (before the nerf), and I’ve gotten what ascended items I could. ) was the (only) goal I was working towards and the Dawn was the only thing getting my way. It was either I gambled or painfully ground my way to the requisite amount of gold to afford one. The thought of going through COF for two to three hours whenever I can was just too much.

By the way, if anyone is wondering, /age is at 750.

I’m going to call your buff here.

You have all of your gifts right? That means 100 charged lodestone and 250 each of every crafting material right?

Lets see what you can get if you add everything together. (These are rough numbers)

250 Ecto – 100G
100 Charged Lodestones – 300-350G
250 each lvl 400 crafting mats – 200-300G
Icy Runestones – 100g
Money you saved up – 450g

Rough Estimate is -
1300G including the gold you saved up.
850G not including the gold you saved up.

Price of Dawn – 500 to 600G

You had plenty of gold. I don’t understand your QQ!

The question is, why didn’t you build the precusor first?

I was fighting a mesmer and a warrior last night. Manage to down and stomp the warrior but I was about 30% health. I saw 12 stacks of confusion on me but I decided to heal anyways. Then bam bam I’m down.

I forgot about that stupid kitten Last Refuge trait. Confusion hit me as soon as I started my heal and it proc Last Refuge which triggers confusion again.

Honestly, I’m not too sure how I feel about this minor trait. Sometimes is it awesome and it saves my butt multiple times. The same thing can be said about it getting me killed. Not too sure what to do about this trait.

LadyLad.1389:

Mindtrick.5190:

Acelerion.6820:

How many classes can outrun a thief again? There’s decent arguments on both sides, that isn’t one of them.

Ele / warrior / ranger / engi

There is no possible way a Warrior, Ranger, or Engineer is going to outrun my Thief. The Elementalist can, kind of. I can keep up with most of them trying to run.

Slot a Shortbow if you’re being caught by the slower classes.

<walks away laughing>

We’re not talking about a infinite distance. It doesn’t take long to get to a tower/spawn/keep/supply camp to be safe.

Hoots.9564:

Hmm, JQ and BG neck and neck. I guess this means tonight is fairly important for who maintains ppt, deciding factor in my book is who SoR decides to harass tonight and who they let tick uncontested.

Offering 2000g…

We already paid 2000g for this match, might as well pay another 2000g to SoR to seal the deal.

BG for life Motherkitteners! Pay2Win

Just Joking

Seriously, I’m taking bets.

10g min bet
Payout as follows

2 times if BG wins
2.5 times if JQ wins

What about the down #3 ability? That ability sucks in PvE now…

Seriously, they dedicated an entire day to discuss “state of the game” for tPvP and invited players to attend this event (next one is scheduled for mid March). When will Anet show the same level of care/attention for the WvW community?

As far as I know, their tPvP failed because it sucks. There are only a few teams that are still playing competitively. The WvW community is here, ready to give advice on how to improve it. Anet should focus to build WvW and push WvW to new greatness.

Hell, they should have a “state of the game” for all parts of the game; tPvP, WvW, and PvE.

sPvP thread on SotG: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/State-of-the-Game-w-J-Sharp-Tyler-Bearce/page/3#post1578205

Hotcake.2137:

Iohanna.4863:

Hi, I am the author of Unseen and Deathess + Slayer Thief – and I am also a good friend of Soko D Medo. I’d like to clarify the strengths and weaknesses of Dagger/Pistol (0/10/30/30/0).

In the context of WvW, this allows you to constantly apply pressure to a disorganized zerg. As long as you are present, their Staff Eles, Rangers, Grenadiers and so on are all threatened. It doesn’t matter if you’re only able to engage 1 person at a time. You are like a living condition debuff on the entire zerg, constantly removing/disabling players one at a time. Removing you requires the attention of several players, which leaves the enemy zerg vulnerable to an allied push.

Unfortunately the most you can do to organized zergs like Red Guard is tail them (powerful in its own right, but that’s a topic for another time). When every one of your available targets is located inside a kill-zone, there is nothing your regeneration, blinds, and evasion can do to kill even one of them. Your role is to cull the weak and the lonely, and no one in Red Guard is weak or lonely. Even if you manage to catch someone away from the zerg, you have about 5 – 10 seconds to kill them before 2 more zerglings arrives.

In sPvP, the Dagger/Pistol is god mode for hot-joins and low level tournaments. Because almost everything’s a 1v1 duel. Even if 5 players hunt you, you can keep them busy as long as you play defensively.

However your utility in high level tournaments is dramatically reduced. You can duel a bunker Elementalist or Guardian for eons, but you will never be able to take the point from her (all damage is nerfed in sPvP, and every point will have a bunker on it). If you decide to ignore the bunkers, you must face the enemy 4-man group of AOE burst builds (maybe one bunker among them) – designed to wipe other 4-man groups let alone one Thief.

Dagger/Pistol only shines 100% of the time in WvW scouting, and WvW duels (although you’ll have some trouble against Phantasm Mesmers in the duels because Phantasmal duelists are almost another player unto themselves). I’ve had multiple people show me variants of Dagger/Pistol and I’ve experimented with many different modifications myself, but the only other effective implementation I’ve seen is essentially a camping perma-stealth Steal-Backstab Thief (by Noell of Jade Quarry).

Any questions?

You are just flat out wrong about D/P in sPvP tournaments. There are no high level Thieves running 0/10/30/30/0 in tournaments; the spec is exactly the same as D/D, 25/30/0/0/15 so there is no reduction in utility or damage. I’ll point you to two of the best Thieves in high level tournament play for reference, Jumper: http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/videos?kind=past_broadcasts
Caed: http://www.twitch.tv/narcarsis/videos?kind=past_broadcasts. Watch any past broadcasts or live streams for reference.

As for the D/P (0/10/30/30/0) set up, I think your descriptions are likely accurate.

The misinformation that needs to be dispelled in this thread is that D/P is not a “burst” weapon set. You are not required to run 0/10/30/30/0 with D/P, and the traditional 25/30/0/0/15 set up is just as viable with D/P if not better than D/D.

Please reread the post title. This is about WvW.

25/30/0/0/15 D/P is asking for death in WvW. And in my opinion, it is a subpar build for WvW.

Joshiasi.2840:

I play D/P and what I do against other thieves are situational.

The first test is what they react to my BP+HS stealth. If they stealth, I make sure to counter that with a stealth utility. If they do not show up first means they used another stealth so I just do another BP+HS combo. If they still don’t show up, I use another stealth utility. At this time they ran out of stealth skill so I cast my basilisk venom, then target the thief, HS+mug then backstab + HS again. Should have a downed thief after.

Never really faced another thief that didn’t react to my BP+HS other than to stealth away. If they pretty much saved up their stealth and waited. Mug + BS should be enough to put them in the defensive.

Maybe this will help in understanding the build.

Against other classes, I switch to Thieves Guild and against Guardians, Rangers, Warriors and Engineers, they are very helpful especially when their HP is close to 50% left.

Also, I play D/P with a 10 / 30 / 30 / 0 / 0 build and have like 15k HP, 2.5k armor, 88% crit damage, 44% crit, 3.1k attack. Pretty much a tanky with burst build.

I don’t have a problem killing d/p 10/30/30/0/0 build. The 0/10/30/30 are harder…

P.S. 15K HP and 2.5K armor is not “tanky”

Now that they changed how stealth affects aggro, can we have our original Shadow Protector back?

5 secs of protection instead of healing.