Guild Wars 2

tarnin.1690:

Sky.9347:

You do gain notoriety, infamy, bragging rights.

When you play a lot of W3, you play with the same people on your team. You get to know one another, and the cream rises to the top.

When you play against a rival server (with a similar rank), you get to know the guilds on that server. Individual names don’t mean anything – guilds do.

I think a lot of you guys are just getting burnt out, and without a constant incentive to play your mind is telling you it’s time to take a break. That might be a new feeling for you, but maybe you should abide by it and just take a break for a while.

I have no idea how or why you would fully max your character out so early in the game. Obviously just a playstyle difference, but I can imagine if I was in your shoes I would be a little burnt out too.

Maybe go play a subscription game and chase a carrot for a while. I predict you’ll be back.

Because its too easy to max out your character. How can you NOT hit 80 and have exotics is beyond me. Maybe ANet only wants casuals? Anyone that isnt a casual is 80 is full exoitcs already and have hit the wall progression wise. If thats what they want thats fine. I don’t run their company and I don’t know their ultimate plan. From what I remember though GW1 was pretty hardcore so this flip in how the game moves isn’t what I expected. maybe they are too concerned with balance?

Again too, you have no perm rivalries which makes it even worse. The servers shuffle and you fight a new set of people. While interesting for about a day, it just goes to a grind because there isn’t that one guild/group/person who you have been trying to beat forever. Having recognition on your own server is an echo chamber, you want recognition from your enemies like “oh crap here comes X’s group, this is gonna be a good fight.” After 2 weeks that’s gone unless you happened to be in the top 4 or 5 servers and contently fight the same people over and over.

Again I will state, many of you are gen3 or 4 players who have no idea what it was like to play gen1 and 2 mmo’s. No more complication, no real depth, and super easy progression. You hit the wall in no time flat.

I can tell you never played DAoC or if you did you didn’t play long. It wasnt mindless. The number of options you had were huge. Group makeup alone would be a different play style completely. How many people in your group would change your play style. I can’t even explain how complex it was and how not mindless it was but seeing as your mentality is coming from the WoW generation you will never get it.

The WoW generation? I’m afraid not. I come from the UO generation.

In fact, I couldn’t stomach WoW because I don’t want to try to keep up with constant tiers of armor and grinding just to be on a level playing field.

You are trying very hard to insult me, I know, but the fact is I don’t want anything “handed” to me. I also don’t want any mechanical edge over a brand new player.

I’ve played PvP in this game since the very first BWE. I can tell you with the utmost confidence that any newcomer to this game would be crushed under my heel. Not because I have some amazing gear or ability advantage, but because I can play the game far better than they can and I probably know their class 10x better than they do themselves.

That isn’t going to change. I have far more “skill” in GW2 PvP than anyone who is going to purchase the game today. I do not need or want any sort of system based advantage to prove my excellence. I want to EARN that respect. I want my enemies to KNOW I am not “geared up” to a point they could only hope to achieve after weeks or months of grinding… I want them to KNOW me and my guild because we have actual skill – even if we have lives and are “casual” players.

And when I get my butt handed to me, I know it was because I just got outplayed. It wasn’t that I took a month long break and missed the latest PvP gear update – I have no excuse except that I failed.

You do gain notoriety, infamy, bragging rights.

When you play a lot of W3, you play with the same people on your team. You get to know one another, and the cream rises to the top.

When you play against a rival server (with a similar rank), you get to know the guilds on that server. Individual names don’t mean anything – guilds do.

I think a lot of you guys are just getting burnt out, and without a constant incentive to play your mind is telling you it’s time to take a break. That might be a new feeling for you, but maybe you should abide by it and just take a break for a while.

I have no idea how or why you would fully max your character out so early in the game. Obviously just a playstyle difference, but I can imagine if I was in your shoes I would be a little burnt out too.

Maybe go play a subscription game and chase a carrot for a while. I predict you’ll be back.

tarnin.1690:

waeren.9743:

tarnin.1690:

MarkyMark.2807:

@jimdove – you were on Excalibur? – that was EU wasn’t it? – I was on that server! – 2001-2004 I think it was

I mentioned in another post that I agree with people saying we shouldn’t just turn GW2 pvp into DAoC pvp, but I don’t see why we can’t take the good ideas and learn from it to make GW2 the ultimate pvp?

I don’t want any extra abilities, etc – like RR5 used to give you effective lvl 51 – and RR10 gave you so many extra abilities it was just too hard for others to compete. But I think titles like ‘Sea of Sorrows OMGIKEELYOU’ rather than ‘Sea of Sorrows Invader’ would be a neat addition that can do no harm and helps give those who want a sense of progression exactly that.

Also think Darkness Falls would be a neat idea – I know Mike has already commented on the possibility of something like that appearing.

I certainly think WvW has a ton of potential, it just needs some tweaking from Anet to make it reach that potential.

Realm Abilities got to be over powered the higher up you went and the more you had. My suggestion is to add Talent Points for RR’s and RR sub dings. So, one talent point for 1.1, when you hit RR2 you get another chooseable ability. If that’s too over powered, how about the Champion Levels they added later? Those were much more of a sideways progression instead of straight up.

I hit 50 on a prince run in DF while fighting off albs who were recently locked out. It was an epic night. Next day I got my epic armor (what do you mean we share the same skin as a a BM! argh!) At the time epic armor was still kinda new so everyone gawked, it was great! Big huge firby in epic armor! Back then they even had resistances to things NOT in the game, were broken, or were way to specific, like Darkness and what not.

Really, I just want some kinda reason to WvW. The world is too small right now to roam and there is really no reason to WvW outside of killing things which will get old soon enough. I like progression in a chracter, this is an RPG after all.

The main issue here is that even if I WvW none stop, and kill 100k people, I will be no better off toon wise than some scrub who ground out tokens in a dungeon and jumped in with 0 kills. Oh, my skill will be higher, but the toons will be equal. Makes no sense to me.

So cosmetic/utility gains are not enough for the all-mighty pvp gods from DAoC? Why do people always need to gain an advantage just because they play more?

Luckily gw2 got that part right.

You are so clueless it hurts. In a few months when its a ghost town because its the same ol same ol out in WvW you will probably shake your tiny fists of rage at the players who wanted to, you know, progress in an RPG. There is a reason even DAoC changed how RvR went. The emain tango got old, Realm Points doing nothing go old, and the population was moving away because it got bored. Now, I’m not sure how ANet wants the game to end up, maybe they only want a few servers to look after with a small crew. If thats the case, then perfect. They will have that in a very short period of time.

Most of the PvE content is mind numbing (which is fine, this should be a pvp based game) so it wont keep the WoW players who want super dance dance revolution for pve fights. The sPvP is junk. It’s WoW/WAR bg’s with less players. Big whoop, if I wanted to play that, FPS’s have been doing death match styles and CTF for years and do it better. I came here to play WvW and a lot of other did too. Now, with no progression in WvW it will be dead very shortly. Take a look at swtor… hows that game doing.

Did DAoC and SWtOR have monthly subscription fees? GW2 does not. This is a bigger factor than you think.

You came here to play WvW, but now playing WvW isn’t good enough because you don’t feel like you have any edge over newer WvW players.

tarnin.1690:

MarkyMark.2807:

@jimdove – you were on Excalibur? – that was EU wasn’t it? – I was on that server! – 2001-2004 I think it was

I mentioned in another post that I agree with people saying we shouldn’t just turn GW2 pvp into DAoC pvp, but I don’t see why we can’t take the good ideas and learn from it to make GW2 the ultimate pvp?

I don’t want any extra abilities, etc – like RR5 used to give you effective lvl 51 – and RR10 gave you so many extra abilities it was just too hard for others to compete. But I think titles like ‘Sea of Sorrows OMGIKEELYOU’ rather than ‘Sea of Sorrows Invader’ would be a neat addition that can do no harm and helps give those who want a sense of progression exactly that.

Also think Darkness Falls would be a neat idea – I know Mike has already commented on the possibility of something like that appearing.

I certainly think WvW has a ton of potential, it just needs some tweaking from Anet to make it reach that potential.

Realm Abilities got to be over powered the higher up you went and the more you had. My suggestion is to add Talent Points for RR’s and RR sub dings. So, one talent point for 1.1, when you hit RR2 you get another chooseable ability. If that’s too over powered, how about the Champion Levels they added later? Those were much more of a sideways progression instead of straight up.

I hit 50 on a prince run in DF while fighting off albs who were recently locked out. It was an epic night. Next day I got my epic armor (what do you mean we share the same skin as a a BM! argh!) At the time epic armor was still kinda new so everyone gawked, it was great! Big huge firby in epic armor! Back then they even had resistances to things NOT in the game, were broken, or were way to specific, like Darkness and what not.

Really, I just want some kinda reason to WvW. The world is too small right now to roam and there is really no reason to WvW outside of killing things which will get old soon enough. I like progression in a chracter, this is an RPG after all.

The main issue here is that even if I WvW none stop, and kill 100k people, I will be no better off toon wise than some scrub who ground out tokens in a dungeon and jumped in with 0 kills. Oh, my skill will be higher, but the toons will be equal. Makes no sense to me.

There is nothing wrong with this statement, but I point it out because it perfectly illustrates where we differ in opinion.

I 100% disagree with this statement, and according to the developer commentary GW2 was designed to avoid this exact situation.

If you succeed in your endeavor, you will have destroyed what makes GW2 unique among modern MMOs. I am afraid that I am directly and wholeheartedly opposed to your vision.

And just as a matter of opinion:

Thief or Mesmer is the best to do this solo.
Mesmer or Engineer is the best to do this in a small group.
Mesmer + Engineer + Guardian is the best to do this in a medium sized group.
Commander Icon is required for any large group special tactics.

I sometimes come off as offensive when I discuss this, so please understand that it isn’t my intention.

I think if an activity is fun, a person generally doesn’t need external incentive.
When an activity is dull, boring, or un-fun AND someone wants you to keep doing it – they offer you external incentives.

So the last decade or so of MMOs being based on subscription fees has created this environment where game developers want you to continue playing (and paying for) their game as long as is humanly possible. To achieve this, they continue to put carrots just out of your reach, and will always add a new carrot when the top 10-50% of people get the first one. They HAVE too, their business model demands it.

GW2 is not subscription based. It is much like FPS games, in that you should be playing the game when it is FUN for you – and not playing when it isn’t. If you feel you’ve completed the game, maybe it is time to put it down for a while and come back later when you want some wuvwuv love or a 100% “fair” arena experience.

Use distractions to your advantage.
Stay very close to walls, where people don’t often see you.
Use stealth when approaching/crossing paths of travel. (stealth combos especially)
KNOW THE MAP VERY WELL.
If you see unassailable odds, try to retreat and find another path.
Accept the ever present risk of death.

I highly disagree with the OP, but I do agree with Scotsin. (can’t quote for some reason)

Implement a system with mechanical bonuses based on time played, and I will never buy or play GW2 again.

THE DEFINING ASPECT of this game for a lot of people is that there is a finite and relatively easily attainable mechanical potential cap. Remove that design choice and this just becomes another WoW clone… albeit with far better combat and profession design.

I don’t say this to be mean, but if you absolutely must have a carrot continuously dangled just outside of your reach I think you should look for a different game.

Von.2790:

Sky, I’m not even going to dignify those statements with a response.

I gather from your response that you are unhappy and unmoved by my opinion.

;-)

Really, I am not going to troll anyone or be ankitten I just have a very different opinion and I want to share that for any developers who might read this thread. I mean no particular offense to anyone, and I understand in the end we are all just gamers trying to have a good time.

Siege plans seem to be more common than supply to build them with.

Will.4165:

I think it’s about emotional attachment. Now stay with me until I finish this. Back in the day when I was in the military I was often put in charge of medium sized tasks. When this would happen I would be assigned a group of lower enlisted personnel to help execute what task I was assigned. Dealing with lower enlisted can often be difficult because they have no actual desire to complete the task and relentlessly smoking them into the ground is often counterproductive. (They will just move slower) So often I would delegate small tasks to each individual where they could see and have a very tangible way to gauge their efforts. This caused them to develop an emotional investment to the project. Soon after no one would be late and they were motivated to finish the task. To see the summation of all their individual hard work. It was that emotional attachment, spawned by small tasks that kept them coming back day after day on time(Besides the thought of jail because of court marshal) That same emotional attachment can be seen everywhere from people who quit their corporate jobs to start their own company and slave away vigorously day after day. Nothing is lacking in my life for me to want to have that same emotional attachment to my efforts in a virtual world. I do not think I am my character, I do not pretend to not be myself. I simply like the feeling of accomplishment through hard work. Cosmetic gear can accomplish this at a very minimum but it is often not enough. Human develop emotional attachments to a lot of things and it is not frowned upon . I am emotionally attached to my car, which has taken me to 48 of the 50 US states. I have an emotional attachment to my computer which i built myself and fixed several times. This doesn’t mean my life is unfulfilling or lacking in any way. Its just a human mechanism.

The lack of progression makes this game a MMO shooter without the aiming. I want the RPG aspect which is very diluted.

I can make the same argument that without a mechanism for continuous growth (Or at least longer growth then the 1 week from 1 to 80) the game will suffer.

A good post.

I can understand what you’re saying here, and I see some merit in it.

My primary concern though is that any continuous progress built into the system implies an INFINITE progression curve, even if it is practically limited by play time.

What I mean is… I have played this game since the start of Headstart, and I still have no idea why people say they level from 1-80 in one week. That’s insane, and is foreign to my understanding of enjoying a game.

Surely, no matter how far back you stick that carrot some people are going to get it. They have too, or they will just get frustrated and no problem has been solved.

So then, to keep them playing you put another carrot just a little further. This will continue through the life of the game, and usually is paired with a subscription fee.

But what about the guy who picks up GW2 sometime in July of 2013, or January 2014. In my opinion, he should be on a level playing field without having to spend months grinding some achievement that FINALLY gets him on equal ground with the carrot chasers.

GW and GW2 were designed to not have the constant carrot, and not require a monthly subscription fee. The two things are almost interlocked at this point. I do not want either of them, and would quit the game if they came about.

Infinite mechanical “progression” is a very bad thing, and is contrary to the stated design philosophy of this game.

Kso.6458:

@ sky, it is not about that at all. I dont want to smash noobs lol. I love even fights, group v group 8v8!! Im trying to think of a way to describe how kitten awesome it was to go up against an equally skilled group and have a 10 minute group v group fight with 1 or 2 peeps left limping around at the end. Its ridiculous. If you never got to do that you missed out on a big part of daoc. I guess a lot of people didnt get to experience it because of play time issues not being able to put a consistent group or w/e but yeah for sure best video game times of my life.

So then regarding the rewards you want… can you find a way to make them non-mechanical? If so, I would support any effort to create long term goals for people who like that sort of thing.

Omega.8573:

Sky.9347:

I didn’t intend to be insulting, but that is how I see it. I also wasn’t insulting your real life… just pointing out that the way I understand it does tie back into your real human psyche.

For example… someone who is very lonely might be the same person who seeks to garner attention and “fame” in an MMO. This may or may not be true, of course, but in my experience it has been true more often than not. Nothing wrong with it.

I disagree that a game will get stale without your character becoming ever more powerful. I have played TF2 since it was released, and sometimes STILL play it today. I don’t play it because I have an attachment to my characters (which would imply I used it as an escape from my real life), but because the game is fun.

I commend the way sPvP in this game was done. It is a big deal for me.

I know W3 has elements of gear progression and some minor grind, but that’s okay because even a level 1 can compete with a level 80, and furthermore there is no great disparity among level 80s.

Any system that includes a mechanism for a continuous growth of power will suffer from several MAJOR problems as time goes on. I won’t list them all here now, but I can if need be.

You can’t compare an FPS to an MMO. The entire experience is different – in an FPS, you’re stats and kills/deaths actually matter in the fight, the matches are shorter, and it’s a small-man vs. small-man. In WvW, you’re 1 of two hundred players zerging around in a field. You could log off and nobody would notice. You receive no recognition for anything you do other than your own “pat on the back” (not saying you need recognition, but infamy also made DAoC the game it was – but that’s a whole other argument).

I think as long as the progression doesn’t overpower characters like it did back in vanilla WoW, there’s not a huge problem with including it.

The experience might be different in some ways, but it is very similar in others.

As I have said before, I am 100% behind any cosmetic or non-mechanical rewards. Titles sound great. Super rare skins are cool. Anything at all that doesn’t put you 1 single stat point above anyone else who has your level of gear, but not your time played.

It’s not a big deal… but it is a slippery slope. In the next month, such a system wouldn’t even be noticed. The problem is it becomes a bar to entry as time goes on.

Even WoW has had to make a massive move to scale back their gear stats… things get amazingly out of hand after a while. You MUST continue to offer stronger and stronger gear, because someone will always come back with the “I’ve got all that gear and there’s nothing left to do! Why can’t I be rewarded for having played this game 3000 hours longer than Joe Schmoe?!”, and eventually an empty suit of gear far outweighs whatever player you stick inside of it.

I understand you want some long term personal goals and rewards, thats fine by me. What I do not understand is why you would need to increase your stats in order to have fun. That stinks of a psychological problem that you are feeding via video games, in my unprofessional opinion.

Omega.8573:

krakenstar.1674:

Omega.8573:

purplestone.8364:

Omega.8573:

Sky.9347:

“Titles, badges, karma, money, experience=skill points at 80, server pride. How do you not earn anything in WvW?”

Because for them, it isn’t about that. It’s about being able to steamroll any newer players easily with inflated stats because they’ve been doing it longer. It’s about finding a sense of pride in creating a character persona that grows to be powerful, like a god among men.

It’s a sense of entitlement, and of retribution for the things they do not or can not have in their real life. They don’t want rewards, they want rewards that put them in a class above brand new players.

lol. Got owned a lot in other MMOs, did we? You people complain about gear in games like WoW, but it’s honestly just an excuse for playing bad. I beat better geared people ALL THE TIME. It’s not hard – you have to play smart. In DAOC, I beat incredibly high realm rank assassin’s with a lowbie RR minstrel without a pet (one of the hardest classes in the game to do this, btw). Don’t just jump to conclusions like “oh he wants gear so he can facerollwinlolgg”.

Don’t believe me? Look on youtube for a video of a WoW rogue killing plenty of people 1v1 with lvl 1 gear on at 80 v 80 (I forget the name of the player). Yes, gear makes it easier – but skill will win 90% of the time.

PS. I’m not saying you guys are not skilled at gaming, I understand you don’t have the time to put into these games that other players do.

I just dont want to have to grind gear sets, its boring and takes time away from pwning newbs. If you need something more rewarding then what is currently offered in WvW that is understandable but the way the game is designed it shouldnt give you any advantage over another player, skill does that alone..and orbs.

So if I create a new character at level 1 with no gear, I should be able to beat your 80 with full exotic gear with no problem, right?

point being – there’s already enough ramp up time level 80 + exotic gears. We don’t need another RR point grid so you can roll with more or less equal footing. Its just another treadmill.

I have tons of 85s in WoW, almost every 50 in DAoC, and have leveled plenty in other MMOs. I’m tired of questing. ArenaNet claims I can jump in and compete in WvW. Are you now telling me this isn’t a good idea without first getting to 80 and getting the exotic gear? Because if not, then it’s still a grind

I have leveled my Guardian solely in WvWvW from level 4 to level 44, so far. Sometimes I get my butt handed to me in a 1 v 1, but I just generally try not to be Rambo and I rarely die.

I didn’t intend to be insulting, but that is how I see it. I also wasn’t insulting your real life… just pointing out that the way I understand it does tie back into your real human psyche.

For example… someone who is very lonely might be the same person who seeks to garner attention and “fame” in an MMO. This may or may not be true, of course, but in my experience it has been true more often than not. Nothing wrong with it.

I disagree that a game will get stale without your character becoming ever more powerful. I have played TF2 since it was released, and sometimes STILL play it today. I don’t play it because I have an attachment to my characters (which would imply I used it as an escape from my real life), but because the game is fun.

I commend the way sPvP in this game was done. It is a big deal for me.

I know W3 has elements of gear progression and some minor grind, but that’s okay because even a level 1 can compete with a level 80, and furthermore there is no great disparity among level 80s.

Any system that includes a mechanism for a continuous growth of power will suffer from several MAJOR problems as time goes on. I won’t list them all here now, but I can if need be.

Speaking for myself only:

I prefer EB because of the map balance. EB is balanced between all three colors, with one major objective to fight over.

The BL map is unbalanced. Unbalanced maps can be fun sometimes, but it feels like the strategy is more one-dimensional.

“Titles, badges, karma, money, experience=skill points at 80, server pride. How do you not earn anything in WvW?”

Because for them, it isn’t about that. It’s about being able to steamroll any newer players easily with inflated stats because they’ve been doing it longer. It’s about finding a sense of pride in creating a character persona that grows to be powerful, like a god among men.

It’s a sense of entitlement, and of retribution for the things they do not or can not have in their real life. They don’t want rewards, they want rewards that put them in a class above brand new players.

In my experience, every profession has it’s place in WvW.

What is most important is your build. Obviously AoE is great, but I find the most impactful things are boons and conditions. Both applying them, and removing them.

I agree, but I think #2 is worded wrong. It should read: Fix the bugs in queues, and provide the players with more information about the queue.

Kryptorchid.7620:

Recently.1043:

Dunno whats funnier, the oceanic hod guilds talking kitten when they roll over the map against empty towers and keeps, or the NA hod guilds that take credit for the work that happens when they are asleep.

What’s really funny is that SBI has had Full/Heavy population 24/7 this match and doesn’t field WvW players, even with a HUGE population online. This “only HoD has 24/7 coverage” is a myth. Both ET and SBI have sizable populations 24/7 (in the case of ET they go from Full/Heavy to Medium) — time to convince those players to actually queue…

I am interested in solving this problem. Any idea how we might convince players who aren’t interested in WvW to queue up and fight back against overwhelming odds and sink a lot of coin into repairs, upgrades, and siege?

I’m not a very good salesman, but since it is my responsibility to correct this W3 participation imbalance I really could use some advice here.

I think being able to retain guild influence would eliminate the #1 problem most people have with moving.

I don’t hate HoD.

Maybe everyone who like WvW should join the top 6 servers, regardless of where you live.

/start thread

Then we would all be equal, and all have super long queues around the clock.

/end thread

Have you seen the muffin man?

/start thread

Shwesh.3159:

GW2 progesses to a certain short point. If you are not lvl 80 with literally everything that can be maxed out maxed out, then you have no right to even comment on this thread. Its not like i hit 80 and make this thread. i Spent time researching and playing the game, experimenting in everything that GW2 offers and after i did all that and thought about it for about i week then i decided to make this thread. but like i said before when you hit 80 and have exotic in every slot with 400/400 prof. countless Spvp skins etc etc. then we can talk.

PS- WOW…been there done that. I"m posting about GW2 and not WoW for a reason.

So, help me understand.

At least a week ago you had literally done everything GW2 has to offer. Less than one month.

You are done with a game that caters to EXACTLY what you say you want. Endless content.

Instead, you want a combination of the two. To have WoW with a GW2 facelift.

I guess I understand that, but I sincerely hope you fail.

OR – a selection of slightly more powerful sigils for 2H weapons.

But yes, I like this idea.

Shwesh.3159:

I obviously need to re-word this. The fun was ended when I log on and decide what to do, and well I’ve done everything that can better my character so I play around for 10 minutes and lose interest because when finish what i decided to do i have nothing to show for it.

If continuous progression is your thing, WoW just released an expansion and I am sure will release more. If that isn’t your cup of tea, there are many other games that offer the same sort of experience.

GW and GW2 were both designed around the idea of finite progression.

This was a good thread for a while, but now it has degenerated.

To recap:

All of the servers are awesome.
HoD is fearsome on the battlefield.
2v1 situations are expected, and a valid tactic
off-hours players are equal to peak time players
we all REALLY love this game, and seem to be afraid someone will screw it up (or not fix something that will screw it up in our estimation)

There is a problem with mismatched W3 populations across servers that makes it difficult to maintain long lasting interest in the game mode.

With that, I will excuse myself from the thread. Thank you all (you know who you are) for the enlightening discussion.

No way, I like having a finisher on demand. The Symbol of Protection is easy to land, if you move correctly and get a sense of the timing.

Blast Finisher on a low cooldown, with a leap… come on man. It’s delicious.

Why did your fun end? What is it that you did that was so fun, but you can’t do anymore?

This suggestion is in regards to the information that players have when trying to select the server best suited to them.

I suggest that servers be designated with a few different foci, one of which should be WvWvW, so that like minded players can bond together.

Active WvW players want competitive matches, and are only 20-30% of the player base. I believe it would help us sort ourselves into the servers that will have regular and consistent WvW representation to keep matches contested and tense.

This would not preclude anyone from participating in any aspect of the game, but it would hopefully help casual players from being unable to truly enjoy a competitive match of WvW from time to time while having a large server population with which to interact.

Namu.5712:

Its prime time right now…. I guess our lack of presence during prime time means we should be getting stomped right…
HoD 390
SBI 190
ET 115

This thread seriously degraded hard in the last 3 pages.

SBI has instant queues right now. I waited 10 minutes for EB, instant into any Borderland.

Ok so I have said a lot, and thought a lot.

Here is my opinion (because I know everyone was waiting at the edge of their seat)…

The only problem with WvW (aside from bugs and such) is that there are too many servers.

I think the best way to solve this is for ArenaNet to eliminate EU and NA categories, and designate each server as either WvWvW focused, Role-Play focused, or General Focus.

Then, just leave the transfers open for a while and let people settle where they may.

EDIT: Hell, we could probably do this ourselves with a well written post and moderator support. An “Unofficial” Server Guide to GW2, so to speak.

I don’t think scoring should be changed.

I think ArenaNet needs to do something with servers and populations. It should involve possible mergers, splits, transfer locks, transfer incentives, increased data for players to make decisions with… etc.

But I am only here, talking about it, so that ANet sees it IS a problem (or at least a major potential problem). I think they are far better equipped than I to design a solution.

I can see why many, many, MANY of the proposed “solutions” are worse than the problem itself. I hear you there. I am not trying to press any particular solution on anyone, or promote one ahead of others. I am only interested in bringing the problem to the attention of those who aren’t aware of it, and ANet.

mangarrage.1062:

You know I really am banging my head against the wall thinking about how to improve WvW but in all honesty when you have alliances between two competing servers to knock out someone else all I can do is throw my hands in the air

No matter what anyone does to try to make a balanced system. People will find a way to completely ruin it.

It is WvWvW not W+W vs W

I’m completely disgusted by what servers are doing

http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-ferguson-on-guild-wars-2-world-vs-world

" Including three forces in world vs. world acts as an excellent balancing factor, preventing one team from growing too powerful and ruining the competitive balance of the game. Two teams can gang up to counter a more dominant third team, a dynamic that simply isn’t possible with only two opposing factions."

Guess it’s time for you to find a different game?

Kazim.2043:

Lets think the other way around. Consider a night capping team captured your forts and applied elite upgrades on that before morning. How do you plan to get them back on day time where even forces fighting?

quit being negative… UNICORNS AND RAINBOWS AND kitten

Trik,

Everyone who plays on HoD says – “there’s no problem, go recruit people”.

The developer at ANet says – “it’s our hope that people move from the populated servers to less populated servers”

Oceanic players say – “why would we leave a low queue, high rank server where weve already built guild influence and relationships?”

Everyone else says – “WvW is fun for a couple days, and then I don’t bother because it’s impossible and I’m not wasting any more of my money or time”

Vexus.5423:

@Sky

I am here for that design decision. Still marveling with friends over TS how we can just have fun and not have to worry about being behind the grind because we take the time to go look at something we find interesting. It’s like playing Zelda games in a sense, where you’re not punished for exploring the world.

Last night I was about to go to bed, and just decided to do all the WvW jumping puzzles. On the very last one, I was jumping along and saw some warrior fall off. Just by his movements I knew he wasn’t great at jumping and it was likely his first time. I did my thing, completed the top portion, then the bottom. As I came down finally I saw him miss a simple jump – the one where if you’re too close on the branch you hit your head and fall down. Ah well, let’s go give him some help. So I just stood by that jump, waited for him to come, and told him, “You have to jump from here, else you’ll hit your head and fall down.” He said thanks, and I made the jump, and then he did. He seemed accepting of the help, so I just kept a step ahead of him, showing him certain jumps. He fell. He fell a lot. Each time I’d jump down with him and swim back and go to the top and so on. One time some enemy players came in. Three ended up downing him in the water, but I was hiding nearby and came in to rez him. Back to the jumps, we slowly, over many falls, made it to the top portion. Awesome. And then we began the much harder lower portion. More falls. I told him to hold back a little jumping across the floating pillars. And finally he got the lower portion and we made it to the treasure chest. It was his first time doing the jumping puzzle in WvW.

I did it because well, I like doing that sometimes. And I did it because I wasn’t missing out on anything. I didn’t have a grind to keep up with. Nothing to chase after. I can actually help if I want, or ignore it if I want, and I’m not punished. The reward is the friendship and the thanks. And the fun. It was still fun even when I had already completed the task.

Introduce a single ounce of grind to make my character more powerful because I played longer than someone else, and that guy would have been left in the dust. Actually I’d just quit the game completely. This is not WoW. If you need a carrot, it’s just because WoW and all the other MMOs found they could make money off you by dangling one in front of you, and you’d just keep paying to have a chance at the carrot. It’s insult to injury when in their new WoW expansion, one of the first mini bosses is a cartoon rat that blocks your way with a carrot! I’m serious!!!

Lots of people play games to chase the carrot they will never achieve, or only achieve if they play for so long and get so lucky that they get the carrot, and then they are met with another patch, another carrot, and the cycle continues. All the while taking money from you every month. I play for fun; most people do, but are so trained otherwise right now. Play for fun, and have fun, and do fun things. Don’t just sit there looking for the next grind. Get that plaque off your mind, off your imagination. The kinds of crazy fun I had last night I can’t even explain – even before helping the guy jump. I was going to go to sleep at 1am and next thing I knew it was 4am.

Fun is the endgame people, seriously. If you take a step back, you realize that’s the end-game for everything entertainment. So why do you need a carrot to hold you back from the actual fun? Just get right to the fun part, and enjoy it. That’s what GW2 gives you.

I am in 100% agreement.

I recently convinced my wife to play GW2. She spends her play time just clearing off maps, avoiding the hearts, collecting resources, and crafting. She is enjoying it, and amazingly enough she keeps a good pace in leveling.

I personally play games for PvP… any game against a computer opponent tends to bore me, I need to play against humans. But I also don’t grind. I just want to pick up the game, play it, and put it down when I’m done.

I quit playing MMOs in general because I didn’t like the feeling of having a second job. I do not want to grind out super powers, or earn anything outside of what my enemies have.

I don’t want to win because I’ve got the most play time, I want to win because I’m better at the game than you.

emoleas.4309:

Tindahbawx.5317:

Do the top servers actually communicate in WvW?

I’m beginning to get tired of my own servers lack of direction, which usually just amounts to “now zerg this”, “come and defend this” and “what the hell are you doing, we need supply camps guys”.

Yes, tons of communication; but no clear leader. As you can tell from [at least] the first day “The Opening Move”, we do have a plan.

I can’t speak for any map other than EB. But on EB, we have several people who formulate strategies. We generally take input from everyone on the server, but more often than not a couple people stand out with the best plans of attack. I personally formulated our opening move (split forces 50/50, DG treb, supply disruption right off the bat), ran it by a couple people who gave some suggestions (70/30 split, get a hold on OU before OC), and we went forward with it. I’m not affiliated with any big WvW guild or anything.

Our amazing commanders took the idea, split themselves into taking care of different portions, and executed it [near] flawlessly.

I was one of the ones who suggested more of a 70/30 split. ;-)

We sort of make decisions through discussion and consensus, and then go get kitten done.

insignia.3625:

tell me how we are rolling nobody.

A picture of what… 20 ET players at almost 4PM EST proves what, exactly?

Trik.1039:

Sky.9347:

But there IS something standing in the way… you see, all oceanic players currently have a server to play on.

I believe transfers are still free. No matter what, some server is going to have more Oceanic players than another. If you were Oceanic time, I would expect you to want a more populated server for PvE purposes during your prime time. It would be great if a few servers had a heavy Oceanic and US presence because the WvW would just be that much more epic. However, it’s sort of on SBI, ET and JQ to recruit an Oceanic presence.

Regarding winning all the time, I agree. I think any one server should lose when two other servers of similar WvW presence actively target them. That’s not saying the other two servers completely ignore each other, but calling one server as primary target should pretty much force a loss on them. It’s a mechanic that prevents one server from dominating WvW forever.

Except that it does not work. Would be great IF it worked, but it doesn’t work because of off-hours capping.

off-hours presence > strategy <— this is a problem, in my opinion

I prefer to say off-hours presence so it applies to all servers, in all places. We are all just gamers trying to play a game here, but we do live very different lives in very different places across the world.

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

displacedTitan.6897:

The other side of this argument is that without the 24/7 chance to come back HoD would have lost within the first weekend.
All it would take is a few hours of two servers ganging up like happened this weekend. SBI and ET essentially kept borders with each other while beating down HoD and put them back what 30k and 10k or so, respectively.
Now that its a complete 3 way and the scores are even in NA primetime there would be NO way to catch back up if not for nightcapping. Population balance is the ONLY way to fix these issues. The same has been true for ALL 24/7 pvp fights in any game. You can never mechanic your way out of this problem.

Let’s say for a moment that HoD didn’t have the massive night crew.

As SBI pulled further ahead, it would be my estimation that ET and HoD would begin double teaming them back.

Then ET would pull ahead, and SBI and HoD would beat them senseless.

As the design intended.

Agreed, the only real problem is that this mechanic requires enough time to pass to allow it to work. Right now pairings are too short in duration, even at 1 week, to give this time to work as intended. Which is really a big part of the problem, we are seeing (and reacting to) spikes that would, over time, level out quite a bit. The pairings just do not take place over long enough periods for this to ever happen.

Well, these spikes occur once every day. I don’t see how they would level out, since it is the same server that gets pushed back during the day, and explodes with massive map domination every single night.

Aside from weekends, this pattern has been very predictable and recurring.

True, but without with a limited duration coupled with a win/lose mechanic (point scores) nobody would care. The average would be (more) acceptable. For me, it’s everyone worried about the score that is the issue. Frankly, I hate that there is a publicly viewable scoring system.

I agree that the score total is perhaps a bad idea.

It could be cool, if the matches were balanced – there was an anti snowball mechanic – and some kind of reward for 1st AND 2nd place.

Without those things, it seems relatively useless for any positive contribution to W3.

Hmmm, I’m not sure if you understand my argument. I don’t want there to be a 1st and 2nd place. I want a war/battle with an ebb and flow, not scoring. I want to take X, Y, and Z today knowing as I do so that I will lose them. However, the tide of the battle will change over time. Today, my server might hold the majority of the territory but nothing is set in stone and tomorrow half our lands may be taken by the combined effort of the other two servers working in unison. There should never be a situation where players can look at some numerical value and decide they have “lost” so there is no point in playing. An epic battle for territory that never has a declared “winner” (or loser) is what WvWvW should be. Make the buffs/advantages received by taking territory (and the orbs) server wide and significant enough that people will drop what they are doing to help take, or defend, things. Anything to turn WvWvW into just another meaningless mini-game is the opposite of what I expect out of the game.

Scoring, ranking, winning/losing just makes it another arena, and just as pointless.

I understand your argument, I just poorly worded my response.

What I mean is – I agree with you, and would prefer that direction.

HOWEVER – I think the point system could be cool, if…

insignia,

It doesn’t happen often… but I agree with you there. ;-)

The first thing I want to say is: HoD being 3rd place during the weekend is no more proof of skill than HoD being 1st place by the end of the week. They had a BRUTAL fight in store for them this weekend, and they will have another BRUTAL fight in store next weekend.

If anything, the top 4 servers are basically the same with level of organization and strategy.

Trik.1039:

WvW as it stands is primarily about numbers. You can’t see half (or sometimes the majority) of enemies when you run into them anyways. It’s about who has more AoE and more bodies to absorb AoE. There is some skill involved, but that is significantly diminished with server lag and rendering issues. That being said, WvW is about numbers ALL of the time, not just weekends or prime time. TA intentionally includes European and Oceanic guilds for 24/7 coverage. There is nothing stopping any other server from doing the same. If you know the rules of the game ahead of time and you plan ahead to maximize your potential within that rule set, I believe it’s called strategy.

Also when looking at WvW being a numbers game WITH a cap on each side (on each map), it is easy to see that any server that is the target of two servers should lose by design, assuming all servers have all WvW slots filled. If each server can have X players and server B and server C both attack server A from different directions, server A must defend at each location with roughly X/2 players while server B and server C can attack at each location with roughly the full X number of players. It’s pretty basic math. It’s only “even” when each server is pushing in two directions with around X/2 players. Yes, I am aware this oversimplifies things, as there are players that defend objectives and small groups that cap objectives in enemy territory, but it conveys the idea adequately.

But there IS something standing in the way… you see, all oceanic players currently have a server to play on. This isn’t 3 months prior to release. Yes, you guys were so forward thinking and amazing that you saw it coming and prepared and yadda yadda – GREAT! And guess what, you’ve won every single match since release (I guess). Awesome payoff for that foresight.

And now, unless something is done to balance out the servers somehow (I am not in favor of mechanics or systemic changes), W3 as an entire game mode will suffer and may even sputter out and fail in the near future.

Winning is cool. Winning all the time is cool, I guess. Winning forever because you are the only server with anyone left willing to even play the game is… cool?

Bruce.9674:

ANet will not fix this: “It’s unfair people can play when I’m not playing”

The sooner people start realizing that is what they are saying in every “night raid” post, the better for all of us.

That isn’t what people are saying.

If you have your way, WvW will be a ghostland within a year. We might have ONE matchup with players in it, but most players will cease to play on most servers.

Of course, if winning is more important to you than the future of the game, I could see how you might think that way.

I’m not trying to be a “seriously negative” guy. Honestly, I am just trying to find some actual reasonable ideas to promote and help show ANet that this is a problem and there are a wealth of solutions that don’t go against their design philosophy.

I guess I can go along with the theme of the thread…

… so I think any server who currently has zero objectives should be allowed to spawn magical pegasus-unicorn hybrids and fly to the enemy garrison Keep Lord.

displacedTitan.6897:

How does my suggestion penalize anyone? They still get to play W3 and have a meaningful impact.

They don’t get to play Borderlands Maps… just because they don’t have the same schedule as you or I.

That will never fly with ANet.

EDIT: SM is far less important than having 3 orbs.

Gilgamesh.2561:

So then… we should cap as much as possible (until we have a solid PPT lead), fully upgrade it, and then go play a different game while the map wins itself?

If you’re implying that the upgrades would be able to hold their own, and even dominate, overnight zergs — you’re wrong. They would be balanced, of course. They would simply deter progress but eventually could be overtaken.

Ok, well then I have two questions:

1) How do you determine when to turn these on and off?
2) If they only deter progress, what actual effect will this have on the game? I mean… if it takes twice as long to take each objective, the end result is the same as before but with a slightly lower point total?

So then… we should cap as much as possible (until we have a solid PPT lead), fully upgrade it, and then go play a different game while the map wins itself?

Just sharing from another thread because it seemed relevant:

Lifewaster.5912:

Sky.9347:

But as you said, what really matters is staring at a keep filled to the brim with supplies, Fortified Walls, Reinforced Doors, Cannons, Oil, Guards, Vendors, half of the dominating servers map population catapulting and trebbing your spawn point.

This could be addressed by capping a keeps allowed upgrades at tier1/2/3 , respective to that keeps distance from the owners spawn.

Example:
The home borderland team is allowed to fortify to tier3 only on garrison, tier 2 in bay/hills , and is limited to tier1 upgrades at the briar/water towers, and tier1 at vale/water supply camps.

Likewise invaders could be limited to tier2 at enemy garrison, and tier 1 at the north east/west towers.

Overall effect would to limit fortification ability the deeper you push to the enemys spawn.

Lifewaster.5912:

Sky.9347:

But as you said, what really matters is staring at a keep filled to the brim with supplies, Fortified Walls, Reinforced Doors, Cannons, Oil, Guards, Vendors, half of the dominating servers map population catapulting and trebbing your spawn point.

This could be addressed by capping a keeps allowed upgrades at tier1/2/3 , respective to that keeps distance from the owners spawn.

Example:
The home borderland team is allowed to fortify to tier3 only on garrison, tier 2 in bay/hills , and is limited to tier1 upgrades at the briar/water towers, and tier1 at vale/water supply camps.

Likewise invaders could be limited to tier2 at enemy garrison, and tier 1 at the north east/west towers.

Overall effect would to limit fortification ability the deeper you push to the enemys spawn.

This is very interesting. I’ll think about this for a while before I share my thoughts; thank you for thinking outside the box!